Latest / The Academic Coaching Podcast / Who Should Teach Students How to Learn? | Susannah Cole

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Who Should Teach Students How to Learn? | Susannah Cole · The Academic Coaching Podcast

• 0:00
  Whose job is it to actually teach students how to learn?
• 0:04
  There is a difference between being bad at math and not being taught in a way that you learn.
• 0:10
  Welcome to the very first episode of the Academic Coaching Podcast, brought to you by the Anti-Boring Learning Lab, and me, Gretchen Wegner.
• 0:20
  This is the show where we reflect on the craft of coaching students.
• 0:24
  We're talking study skills, executive function strategies, tips and tricks for teaching the science to students, and occasionally, a little biz advice thrown in for those of you in private practice.
• 0:36
  Today's guest, our very first guest, has spent over 25 years in education, teaching everything from preschool to college, and somewhere along the way, she started asking a question that I also love to think about, which is: whose job is it to actually teach students how to learn?
• 0:55
  Not content, not curriculum, but the skills, the systems, and the habits that make any and all of it stick.
• 1:03
  So that's what we're going to be talking about today.
• 1:06
  I am so excited to introduce Susannah Cole.
• 1:09
  She is an executive function coach and educational diagnostician and co-author of Flexible Mindset in Schools.
• 1:17
  Actually, it's Flexible Mindsets, because there's more than one mindset, I suspect.
• 1:23
  And so I'm really excited to talk to Susannah.
• 1:27
  Welcome.
• 1:29
  I'm so happy to be here.
• 1:31
  Oh.
• 1:31
  Thanks for inviting me.
• 1:33
  So one thing I didn't say in the intro that I just really wanna make sure that I say right at the outset is Susannah has been a very long time member of the Anti-Boring Learning Lab, and is somebody who I think has more fidelity to what I teach in the Anti-Boring Toolkit than perhaps anybody else besides me, maybe even more than me.
• 1:56
  So it's very fitting, Susannah, that you are our very first guest on the podcast.
• 2:03
  Well, I think that it's just because I recognized your brilliance right away.
• 2:10
  So I knew that when you, when I see something that's good, I'm, I'm just...
• 2:16
  I was smart enough to grab onto it and then use it, and make it my own, because you also encouraged us to do that.
• 2:23
  Which is what I love about you and your work, and we are gonna talk about that a little later.
• 2:29
  But first I just wanna ask you, how are you?
• 2:31
  I know you've had a whole work day ahead of this recording session.
• 2:35
  I have.
• 2:37
  Uh, because I live on a little tiny island in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean in the Atlantic time zone in Bermuda, where everybody's day starts, um, after mine.
• 2:48
  So I've already had a whole morning where I was doing a psycho-educational assessment with a 10-year-old this morning.
• 2:56
  Ooh.
• 2:56
  And I knew, I...
• 2:58
  So what I knew, all I know before they arrive is basically their name and their age, and usually their school.
• 3:04
  Um, and so I knew that I was meeting a 10-year-old who was homeschooled.
• 3:09
  I have not actually assessed someone who was homeschooled before.
• 3:13
  So when he arrived with his mom and his sister, I could tell right away that he is, eyes were down.
• 3:20
  Oh.
• 3:21
  This was not someone who wanted to be there.
• 3:24
  I mean, I've greeted so many kids at the door, and I just knew.
• 3:27
  Eek.
• 3:28
  So I reassured him.
• 3:29
  I said,"You know, I know, it's a little...
• 3:31
  I can understand you're a little nervous right now, but I promise it is gonna be okay.
• 3:35
  Let's head upstairs." His mom and sister were gonna wait downstairs.
• 3:39
  They were gonna sew in the waiting room, which I just thought was so sweet.
• 3:42
  Oh, that's so sweet.
• 3:44
  With their sewing basket.
• 3:44
  Anyway.
• 3:45
  Schoolers.
• 3:47
  Yeah.
• 3:47
  So we went upstairs, and I just started, which I always do.
• 3:51
  I, I mean, I have, you know, I have it down to a bit of a system at this point.
• 3:55
  So I'm like,"So how come you're here?
• 3:57
  Do you know why you're here?" And he said,"'Cause I can't concentrate." And I was like,"Oh." So I knew he was here'cause he- Yeah he and his parents probably thought he had a little bit of ADHD.
• 4:05
  Well, we're gonna find that out.
• 4:06
  I said,"Awesome.
• 4:07
  Can't wait to get to know your unique brain." I started to ask him some questions, and I could just see his eyes welling up.
• 4:14
  And I was like,"Oh." I said,"What is happening?" And he said,"I do not trust you.
• 4:21
  I do not want to answer any of your questions." And he, the, the, the, by that point, there were full tears streaming down his face.
• 4:29
  I was like,"Oh.
• 4:30
  Oh, my gosh.
• 4:31
  It is...
• 4:31
  Okay.
• 4:32
  I, you are so right.
• 4:33
  You have literally just met me.
• 4:36
  You do not know me.
• 4:37
  You've never been here to this building before.
• 4:40
  I totally get it if you don't trust me, and you need some time." So that- And the irony there is he trusts you enough to tell you he doesn't trust you.
• 4:48
  That is so sweet.
• 4:50
  And to share those emotions, like- Yeah within minutes.
• 4:53
  Like- Yeah well, obviously they were so big for him, too, right?
• 4:55
  Yeah.
• 4:56
  He really didn't wanna come.
• 4:57
  He was scared, very scared of the whole situation.
• 5:00
  Um, and so I said,"Well, I give, we c- how about we have two options?
• 5:04
  One, we can just get started.
• 5:06
  I don't ask you any more questions.
• 5:07
  That's totally fine.
• 5:08
  I don't need to get to know you any more.
• 5:09
  We can just get started.
• 5:11
  Or, do you wanna play a game?" He wanted to play a game.
• 5:14
  So we played Pick-up Sticks.
• 5:16
  And boy, do I love Pick-up Sticks because there's really no rules.
• 5:19
  Everyone, no matter what age you are, you can play.
• 5:22
  It is so easy for me to let them win, which is not, it's not, like, I like to really play sometimes, too, but he needed a win.
• 5:29
  Yeah.
• 5:29
  So it was so fun, and, um, in the end, anyway, he- Anyway.
• 5:35
  He did okay he got on board, and it was just so interesting to me.
• 5:40
  I'm so glad I have, in my past, in my varied history of teaching, I had worked with homeschooled kids- Mm-hmm um, when I was a child reject director at the Unitarian Church years and years ago, and they were mostly all homeschool kids.
• 5:53
  And so I knew- Mm how they really do, they don't have the same experience with an educator.
• 6:00
  Mm-hmm.
• 6:00
  They don't see me as an authority figure.
• 6:02
  They tell me the truth.
• 6:04
  They feel like they can say what they really mean and what they want to say, and it, I was so glad that I had that in my background because I was like, I think part of me, I don't get him- Mm fully yet, but- Mm-hmm part of me understood where he was coming from.
• 6:18
  This isn't his world, what I was- Yeah, well- bringing him into that's so interesting to even think about, that he hasn't learned how to mask in front of adults, educators,'cause he hasn't had to,'cause it's mostly likely his mom and other, other people they may have invited into their home environment.
• 6:35
  Yep.
• 6:35
  Wow.
• 6:35
  And it's a completely different energy, and I love it, and, and I think you need experience with it to truly appreciate how, how different it is and, and who you're meeting and how to- Mm how to meet them where they are.
• 6:48
  Yeah.
• 6:49
  Well, in some ways that's a lovely transition into where I wanted to go next, and I told you before we hit record that I had a surprise for you.
• 6:58
  We'll see how this goes.
• 6:59
  This is our very first episode of the Academic Coaching Podcast.
• 7:02
  Um, but you and I, you turned me on to this, really like the episode or the podcast Wild Card.
• 7:11
  And one of the things, Rachel Martin, this is an NPR podcast, one of the things she does is she has cards that guide the conversation.
• 7:19
  And I was thinking I wasn't gonna do them because, oh, it's just so hard.
• 7:24
  How do we have a...
• 7:24
  I don't know, I couldn't figure it out.
• 7:26
  But this morning I got obsessed with trying to figure it out, and so we're gonna play Wild Card together as an episode.
• 7:35
  We'll see how it goes.
• 7:37
  Audience, you can tell us if you like this format or not for a professional podcast.
• 7:44
  But the way Wild Card works is we're gonna have three rounds.
• 7:47
  Do you wanna know the topics of the rounds- Yeah, I think I do beforehand?
• 7:51
  Okay.
• 7:52
  Yeah.
• 7:52
  Yes.
• 7:52
  So the first round is what you were like as a student when you were younger.
• 8:00
  Okay.
• 8:00
  The second round is how you became an academic and executive function coach, and that journey.
• 8:08
  And then the third round is your experience in the Anti-Boring Learning Lab and how you're current, how you're continuing to grow.
• 8:16
  Fascinating.
• 8:16
  So, yes.
• 8:17
  It- And somewhere in there, Rachel Martin takes a break to talk about something.
• 8:21
  And so somewhere in there we're gonna take a break to talk about the question of the episode, which is...
• 8:28
  Oh, gosh, I even just forgot right in this moment, but I said it in the intro.
• 8:33
  Whose job is it to teach study skills?
• 8:36
  Yes.
• 8:37
  Let's talk talk about that in there, too.
• 8:38
  You game?
• 8:40
  I'm game.
• 8:40
  Bring it on.
• 8:41
  Okay, bring it on.
• 8:42
  Okay.
• 8:43
  Well, I don't actually have written cards, but AI's gonna help us here.
• 8:48
  So for round one...
• 8:49
  Oh, you also, if you want, you can, you can flip or you can pass.
• 8:54
  Yeah.
• 8:54
  Flip and then I skip.
• 8:55
  Yeah?
• 8:55
  Yep.
• 8:55
  Okay.
• 8:55
  Yeah.
• 8:56
  One flip and one skip.
• 8:57
  You totally can if you want.
• 8:58
  You don't have to, but you totally can.
• 9:00
  So for round one, do you want question one, two, or three?
• 9:05
  I want two, please.
• 9:06
  She wants two.
• 9:07
  Okay, so question two is how did you survive your absolute hardest class when you were in school?
• 9:15
  I guess I, in, in theory, I guess I did survive'cause I'm here, right?
• 9:19
  Mm-hmm.
• 9:19
  To tell the tale.
• 9:19
  Mm-hmm.
• 9:20
  Uh, but it would, there was, it instantly, there's no question it was math.
• 9:25
  Okay.
• 9:25
  And I, I even, my friend and I, who sat beside each other in grade eight math, we got nicknames.
• 9:33
  It isn't Dumb and Dumber, but it was a version of Dumb and Dumber- Mm-hmm because we were the, like, the worst at math, and everybody in the class.
• 9:39
  So we did become, like, the kind of butt end of the teacher's jokes.
• 9:42
  He was a more, you know, jokey kind of teacher, and I think he just could not believe what my friend and I, Emily, we, we just couldn't understand.
• 9:52
  We just it didn't...
• 9:55
  And, and clearly we weren't being a-taught in a way that, what we learn.
• 9:58
  And so I think that class for me was for sure, it w- Well, one, they say we remember so much of what our teachers tell us, all of us do, and it's amazing how much of that sticks.
• 10:12
  And it was so hard for me to let go of the mindset of being bad at math.
• 10:17
  I went through s- all of my schooling after that imagining myself as someone who was bad at math until I went and took a b- to become a math tutor, which was hilarious.
• 10:28
  I did it more just for the course.
• 10:30
  She taught me all these strategies for math, which is why, what I wanted to learn, and all of a sudden, numbers were completely different to me.
• 10:37
  Oh.
• 10:37
  Just no one had ever taught me like that.
• 10:39
  I am not saying I'm a genius in math, I'm not saying that.
• 10:42
  But I am saying that I did, I dropped that mindset and realized, oh, there is a difference between being bad at math and not being taught in a way that you learn.
• 10:54
  Interesting.
• 10:55
  Do you think that experience at all informed your book, Flexible Mindsets in Schools?
• 11:00
  Big part of, so much of what I do is, as a coach, in my book, as an educator, absolutely was informed by that.
• 11:08
  Wow.
• 11:10
  Interesting.
• 11:11
  Yeah.
• 11:12
  Well, and that's what our next round is about, but I notice I still wanna find out a little bit more about you as a student.
• 11:17
  So, um- W- let's, do you wanna do c- one or three?
• 11:22
  Card one or three?
• 11:23
  Oh, I love this version of- I know.
• 11:25
  I'm making it up Oh, you just keep on taking I'm making it my own until you get what you want.
• 11:28
  Yeah.
• 11:29
  I like it.
• 11:29
  Okay, I'm gonna go one this time.
• 11:31
  One.
• 11:32
  Okay.
• 11:33
  Was there a part of yourself that you felt you had to hide back when you were a student and in school?
• 11:40
  Um, yes.
• 11:44
  Um, I'm, you know, I'm gonna answer this.
• 11:47
  I'm trying to finagle what I wanna say- Mm-hmm around this question.
• 11:51
  So just like you wanted more info from me- Yeah just because, I mean, uh, obviously I've just said I'm not great at math, but I, I actually wasn't, I wasn't a, a straight A student.
• 12:02
  But it wasn't like I was hiding.
• 12:04
  Like, uh- Mm-hmm people knew I wasn't a straight A student.
• 12:07
  But I think what I was hiding or what, what I couldn't express or people didn't see was how resourceful I was.
• 12:15
  Mm.
• 12:16
  How, like I, now that I do psych eval assessments, I think I have pretty high fluid intelligence, which is it isn't book smarts.
• 12:22
  It's like, it's like street smarts.
• 12:25
  It's common sense.
• 12:26
  It's, like I was a problem solver, and I would just figure stuff out, and that was never acknowledged in school, and no one ever understood.
• 12:34
  And when my guidance teacher told me that I wasn't smart enough to go to university, well, certainly not higher, I wanted, at first I wanted to be a psychiatrist, and she was like,"You're not going to med school." Ooh.
• 12:45
  I kinda knew I wasn't going to med school.
• 12:46
  I kinda knew that.
• 12:47
  That was okay.
• 12:48
  But then I wanted to be a psychologist, and she was like,"No, probably not that either." And I was like,"No way." Like, I knew that when I put my mind to something, I figure stuff out.
• 12:58
  I just do.
• 12:59
  I make things happen.
• 13:01
  And thankfully, my parents were fully supportive of me.
• 13:04
  But I have now since heard so many stories of people who have not, who had their guidance counselors have not seen, I hate the word potential, but just for- Yeah ease of understanding this- Their fullest, their fullest sense of theirselves- Yes and their actual strengths.
• 13:18
  Not just grades and what you see on that piece- Yeah of paper.
• 13:20
  It did not tell you.
• 13:22
  She would be floored to know who I am today- Mm-hmm and what I've done.
• 13:25
  Floored.
• 13:26
  Mm-hmm.
• 13:27
  So I was pigeonholed and not seen for all of what I brought for sure.
• 13:32
  Mm.
• 13:33
  Interesting.
• 13:33
  That's kind of the opposite of masking in some ways, isn't it?
• 13:36
  Yeah.
• 13:36
  It's like, yes, we mask parts of ourselves, and I know that's a topic that you're increasingly interested in, but also, um, we have these intelligences, but people just don't see them because of the blinders that schools put on educators.
• 13:52
  Yeah.
• 13:53
  Well, and then how narrow, what the scope of education and what, how we view learning- Yeah how narrow that is.
• 14:01
  It just- Yeah it can't possibly capture the fullness of a person.
• 14:05
  Yeah.
• 14:07
  Interesting.
• 14:07
  Well, that does tie us straight into round two, which is more about, uh, your transition into coaching.
• 14:15
  So do you want card one, two, or three?
• 14:18
  Well, now I need three.
• 14:23
  Can you point to a specific turning point when you realized your old work wasn't cutting it anymore and you needed to do something different?
• 14:32
  Specific, uh, I don't know if it's in, like, what I can say is it's a specific time when I recognized complete burnout.
• 14:41
  Hmm.
• 14:41
  And, and it was as a middle school teacher, which, uh, in an all-boys school, which won't be any surprise to anyone listening.
• 14:49
  Oh, I didn't, I don't know if I knew that detail about you.
• 14:51
  An all-male boys.
• 14:52
  Wow.
• 14:52
  Yeah.
• 14:53
  Yeah.
• 14:54
  And I had put...
• 14:55
  And they were all had come to this school because they had learning differences, and other schools weren't really able to educate them- Mm-hmm in the way that they needed to be educated.
• 15:05
  So in theory, it was, like, my perfect place, right?
• 15:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 15:09
  I, I love my strategies, I love learning differences and figuring out what makes people tick, finding different ways to help them learn.
• 15:17
  And then you put them all into one classroom with...
• 15:21
  At a, and a middle school age, and then with myself, who had never taught middle school and was never trained to teach middle school.
• 15:29
  It was, I was in way over my head in so many ways.
• 15:33
  I was working on overdrive for far too long.
• 15:36
  Yeah.
• 15:36
  And after two years of that, I knew that I was not serving these- Mm students in the way that they needed to be served, and I also knew the school wasn't able to support me to be the kind of teacher that I needed and wanted to be.
• 15:49
  So.
• 15:49
  You know what?
• 15:50
  That is so my experience with teaching.
• 15:52
  I also was at a middle school, and three years in, I wasn't fired, but I also wasn't recontracted, and I think a lot of that was the person who hired me changed, like, the, the leadership changed, and the new leadership was not the sort of leadership who believed in really nurturing talent.
• 16:11
  And I think I, I mean, I think I was a highly skilled teacher, but I was a bit chaotic with my creativity and the ways that I saw student learning happening, and I really needed mentoring that I, I wasn't gonna get at that school, and I guess thank goodness, because here I am too.
• 16:29
  I am very grateful.
• 16:31
  Yeah.
• 16:31
  And I'm, I am grateful for having had that experience- Yeah'cause I, I really can draw from it in the work I do now, but I'm also glad I only did two years,'cause it really did- Yeah I was burned.
• 16:42
  I was so...
• 16:43
  M- my nervous system, every day, I don't even know how I slept.
• 16:46
  Mm.
• 16:47
  My nervous system was on, like, high alert every single day.
• 16:50
  I just could not...
• 16:51
  Oh, talk about co-re- I could not co-regulate with those kids, and that's what they really needed.
• 16:55
  Mm.
• 16:55
  Mm-hmm.
• 16:56
  So did you transition straight to coaching from that, or what, what was your journey?
• 17:01
  I, thankfully, I did.
• 17:02
  Oh.
• 17:02
  I did because I met my co-author of Flexible Mindsets in School, Julie Dunstan.
• 17:08
  Mm.
• 17:08
  Um, she was actually in conversations with the school to try and do a bigger project, and I, I knew Julie, and so we started having conversations, and so I shared with her how difficult things were and that, you know, what I really wanted to do.
• 17:25
  There was a bit of a mismatch.
• 17:26
  Mm-hmm.
• 17:26
  And she, she's a really, talk about h- needing a mentor.
• 17:30
  She is a great mentor.
• 17:31
  She, she was the one who introduced executive function to me, and she said,"Are you familiar with executive function?" Mm-hmm.
• 17:37
  And so this was in about 2014, 2015.
• 17:40
  2015.
• 17:41
  And I said,"No, not really." And then she started describing it to me, and she said- Okay, I wanna pause you for a second- Yeah just because it's so fun hearing the connections in our story.
• 17:51
  We've always known we have a f- we, we like each other personally and professionally- Yeah but it's just fun to hear how much we have in common.
• 17:57
  And before we hear what Julie said, when I first applied for a job that was an academic coaching job, and I didn't know what that meant, the, the person in the interview said,"Do you know what executive functions are?" And I said,"No, but I'll make it up." And I made it up, and I, I sounded kind of smart, I guess.
• 18:17
  Of course, I didn't really know.
• 18:18
  And she did say,"Well, you're a smarty pants.
• 18:20
  I can tell that, but please go research executive function and add to what you just made up." So...
• 18:27
  Exactly.
• 18:28
  Yeah.
• 18:29
  The overlaps are amazing- Mm-hmm because also, yeah, she, Julie ended up really becoming my mentor in that regard and, and saying,"This is how you can learn about them.
• 18:38
  I've got a great place-" Mm that we, I w- and I would like to do it with you." Not that she wanted...
• 18:43
  She just was also very interested in executive functions- Mm at the time.
• 18:47
  She knew of my love of strategies.
• 18:48
  She met me- Mm when I first moved to Bermuda, and she knew that that was my big focus.
• 18:53
  She was also the one who suggested I get trained in how to do psychological assessments- Oh like what an assessment.
• 19:00
  So, I mean, I owe a lot of that to her, and she really just saw, she saw what I could do, but she knew the, she also knew the terrain here in Bermuda and how difficult it was gonna be for me to navigate.
• 19:11
  She did say after that it, it's, it was hard to watch me, you know?
• 19:16
  She knew, she said,"I knew you had to find your way, but it was also hard to watch." Oh.
• 19:20
  Um, so she always, I think, saw me in my own practice- Mm-hmm and not maybe as an executive function coach initially, but as soon as I learned about what executive functions were- Mm I knew that, yes, this is one of the things that I am passionate about, and it is all s- it's so strategy based, and that was always what I was looking...
• 19:40
  In my own life, I'd always found strategies- Mm-hmm to help me- Mm-hmm and so I knew that this would be a good fit.
• 19:45
  Mm.
• 19:45
  And so that, she said,"You can do this.
• 19:49
  You can do this all on your own.
• 19:50
  You can just be your own boss, and I think you'd be best as your own boss- Mm and you can run your own, um, executive function coaching." We discussed when I first started, do I call it my executive function coaching?
• 20:02
  And I think we'll talk about a little bit that later, but- Yeah that was a, we talked about academic coaching.
• 20:07
  I was a learning specialist.
• 20:08
  My business was a learning specialist.
• 20:10
  That's what I set up first- Mm'cause I wanted to do more than just coaching.
• 20:13
  Mm.
• 20:13
  But ultimately, I decided the coaching was specifically for me about executive function coaching.
• 20:18
  I think people listening might identify with a lot of your story, inclur- including the burnout piece.
• 20:24
  And I am curious, like, what was hard for Julie to watch?
• 20:29
  Like, what do you think was the hardest?
• 20:32
  'Cause I think people might be wondering that question, too.
• 20:34
  Like, were there some mistakes you made, or were there bungles?
• 20:37
  Or like- Mm what, what was so difficult for her to see?
• 20:41
  I think one of the things that was hard to watch was probably how, how I wasn't able to shine in, in a way.
• 20:50
  Like, I think she knew that I had more- Ah in me than sh- than I could show, and that I, you know, I had one...
• 20:57
  I had a principal who wrote me up for insubordination.
• 21:00
  I was, I was running an autism classroom, and because I had a behavior plan for a student, and the principal came in and completely derailed it.
• 21:09
  Oh.
• 21:10
  And so I said to the principal,"That's not okay.
• 21:12
  You can't really do that." Okay.
• 21:13
  "This is, consistency is so important when you're working with kids-" Yeah on the spectrum." And the principal went back to her office and wrote me up for insubordination for speaking back.
• 21:22
  Wow.
• 21:22
  Wow.
• 21:23
  And so I think there was moments where Julie was seeing that I was in a system- Mm-hmm that first of all did not get me, that was telling me to do less, and she knew that part of that is- I see in Bermuda, I was rocking a boat that- Mm-hmm didn't wanna be rocked.
• 21:42
  And she knew that if I could find my lane, that I could really bring all of myself to it.
• 21:49
  Mm-hmm.
• 21:49
  But I, she's also pretty anti-system, so I think watching me in a system that was holding me back was what was- Yeah really hard for her to witness.
• 21:58
  Yeah.
• 21:59
  Yeah.
• 22:00
  Yeah.
• 22:00
  And hence the suggestion to s- to be your own self.
• 22:05
  Yeah.
• 22:06
  And I assume that's been working for you.
• 22:09
  Never looked back, and now will never...
• 22:13
  I, well, never say never.
• 22:14
  Mm.
• 22:14
  I also believe in that philosophy.
• 22:16
  I cannot imagine myself ever working for a boss again.
• 22:20
  Yeah.
• 22:21
  Yeah, I can't imagine it either for myself.
• 22:24
  Um, one more question, and then we're gonna take our break.
• 22:26
  I guess this is, the question is the transition into our break to, to talk about the question about whose job is it to teach students about learning anyway.
• 22:33
  Mm.
• 22:34
  But, um, we call this the Academic Coaching Podcast, but executive functions to, for me, are a very important part of academic coaching, especially the more I learn.
• 22:45
  It wasn't necessarily back in the day, but now it increasingly is.
• 22:49
  And for those who don't y- or haven't yet gotten on the executive function bandwagon, what would you say EFs are?
• 23:01
  I say it very simply to my students of all ages, it is how we get stuff done.
• 23:07
  Mm-hmm.
• 23:08
  And on top of that, if I were to say more,'cause I think for students that really resonates because they know.
• 23:18
  I'm like,"Your teachers, they teach you everything you, all the information, all the important knowledge you need.
• 23:23
  They c- have all of that and share that with you.
• 23:27
  But what they don't always share with you is how to get all the stuff they're asking of you done." Mm-hmm.
• 23:34
  "How to do it in a way that matches what, how you want to get it done.
• 23:39
  And also, how to have your whole own life on top of You're not just a student." So the executive functions is, how do I manage all of those pieces- Mm and do it in a way that feels good to me?
• 23:52
  Mm-hmm.
• 23:53
  And so what I say to parents and to students is that I'm really teaching that how to learn part as opposed to the what you need to know part.
• 24:02
  Mm-hmm.
• 24:04
  Great.
• 24:05
  Well then, it sounds like you believe that that is your job as an executive function coach to teach students about learning.
• 24:13
  But what's, let's lay, let's, let's lay the problem first.
• 24:17
  Like, what is, is the problem which is why we're talking about the question of whose job is it anyway?
• 24:27
  Can, can I say that the problem is school?
• 24:27
  Yeah.
• 24:27
  Well, I mean, can we just say, I mean, this is an inaugural podcast.
• 24:36
  Like- Yeah school, why it was invented- Mm-hmm was to teach people how to, factory workers how to show up on time, do what they're freaking told, do it as efficiently and effectively as possible, and basically just be robots.
• 24:55
  Like- Mm-hmm that was, that was why school was invented.
• 24:59
  And more than any other institution, i- in my opinion, it is the one that has changed the least.
• 25:05
  Mm-hmm.
• 25:05
  You know, healthcare has even changed and evolved slightly.
• 25:09
  Governments, mm, we don't wanna talk about those, but I mean, even they have changed and evolved slightly.
• 25:14
  But education as a system- Mm-hmm it is like the slowest moving system.
• 25:20
  Mm-hmm.
• 25:21
  And it, it does not match what we need, what the, what our world needs, what the future needs.
• 25:28
  It's just such- What individuals need.
• 25:32
  Yeah.
• 25:32
  Yeah.
• 25:33
  Yeah.
• 25:33
  Now one, it's not a caveat, but just, just to name,'cause I think about this sometimes, that the history that you just laid out is the history of schooling in the West.
• 25:44
  Sure.
• 25:45
  Um, and inside capitalism.
• 25:48
  'Cause there are other, like long ago the Greeks and whatever, and in the, in the non-Western world schooling has looked like other...
• 25:56
  I don't, I don't, well, I don't even know if schooling would've been the word.
• 25:59
  It would've been your learning.
• 26:00
  Yeah.
• 26:01
  How people trained or taught or how students learned.
• 26:06
  But the, the system of schooling whereby we take, we take students, tell them that they need to know certain things by certain times, break their day into specific parts, uh, take them out of their community and into these places that we call schools, that is all quite unique to, uh, capitalist Western structures.
• 26:30
  And then it has, through colonialism, passed to other parts of the world as well.
• 26:34
  I'm pretty sure that what I just said is accurate.
• 26:39
  I'm gonna back you up on that.
• 26:40
  Yeah, yeah.
• 26:40
  But maybe do we, do we have a fact check on this podcast?
• 26:43
  We don't have a fact check, no.
• 26:45
  We're not, um, The Armchair Expert, which is the other podcast that we listen to together, but I'm sure listeners will fact check us if they desire.
• 26:51
  There will be a place, you know, that people can put their comments- Absolutely if they want to.
• 26:57
  Great.
• 26:59
  So- Where are students taught how to learn?
• 27:04
  And so, and, and that's, I was saying this about the problem being school.
• 27:10
  Yeah.
• 27:10
  It's not, I'm not suggesting that there aren't also some good aspects to school.
• 27:16
  Mm-hmm.
• 27:17
  And, and I do think that learning, students, many students really do enjoy going to school and being amongst their peers, and, and do, they're sponges, their brains, for knowledge and information.
• 27:30
  And I think that part of it is wonderful.
• 27:35
  Uh, parents also need the break six hours a day from their children.
• 27:39
  I mean, everybody, everybody benefits in that regard.
• 27:41
  So I do think some of the learning is happening in schools and with teachers, and that it's...
• 27:51
  And of course- Learning is al- it's happening always, that's the thing.
• 27:56
  Yeah.
• 27:56
  I mean, learning is never not happening.
• 27:59
  Right.
• 27:59
  But the metacognitive awareness of how to learn, how to track what's happening in our regulation systems, our body regulation, our emotional regulation, our thought regulation while we're learning, and how to learn more effectively while having our fullest sense of ourselves through life, that is not a skill set that anyone in schools is particularly adept at teaching.
• 28:24
  I mean, there are, there are excellent teachers who sometimes share strategies that are supportive, but learning as a system that students can be a part of, can own themselves, that's not really taught.
• 28:41
  It isn't.
• 28:41
  Mm-hmm.
• 28:42
  And, and I'm, I'm not sure...
• 28:44
  I, I think this, I think this is actually a good place- Yeah for me to make a connection of a, a recent conversation that I heard between...
• 28:53
  It was on the Curiosity Shop podcast, um, with Brene Brown and Adam Grant and Simon Sinek.
• 29:00
  I mean, you couldn't have three more, um, well-known and vital leaders o- shaping, they're shaping organizations right now.
• 29:10
  They're- Yeah they really are, you know, prominent voices in that field.
• 29:13
  Um, and she shared from her research a cluster of skills- Hmm that she has identified as the core.
• 29:21
  She said that there's...
• 29:22
  Like, she ended up identifying 38 or something.
• 29:24
  She said it's such an unwieldy number.
• 29:25
  But there was a core that she found.
• 29:28
  And as she was saying this, I was driving in my car home from work, and I was just like,"There's no way that she's gonna keep..." The things she kept saying, I was just like,"You're kidding me." She started with the first one is self-awareness.
• 29:42
  And I was like- Ah I am the biggest believer in it all starts with self-awareness.
• 29:49
  You can't create change until you have an awareness that I wanna actually...
• 29:54
  I'm aware of who I am and what I want.
• 29:57
  You know?
• 29:57
  Like, that self-awareness is the foundation of everything.
• 30:00
  And then, of course, I was h- I was...
• 30:02
  Couldn't believe the second one.
• 30:03
  Probably, I mean, I'm gonna say my second favorite, metacognition.
• 30:06
  I should have asked you what it is.
• 30:08
  You would've known what metacognition- I would've known.
• 30:09
  You would've known I'm a big believer in what you, you just talked about metacognition.
• 30:15
  It is the awareness of your own thinking and, and, and having an understanding of that.
• 30:20
  And that would be the second core skill of leaders, top leaders in the world, to have.
• 30:27
  And you mentioned the third one as well.
• 30:30
  Now I lo- I know you love to take a guess.
• 30:32
  Do you wanna take a guess?
• 30:33
  You mentioned, you just mentioned it.
• 30:34
  I know you're on the spot.
• 30:36
  I don't remember, just'cause I'm also in leadership mind leading the podcast- I know you are so I'm not sure what I just said.
• 30:41
  So I'm gonna say it and you're gonna go,"Of course I remember just saying this." So emotional regulation.
• 30:47
  I re- Our nervous systems Of course, of course.
• 30:49
  And our emotions.
• 30:50
  Mm.
• 30:50
  Having understanding of our feelings and our, and our nervous systems, and how to regulate- Mm-hmm o- how to self-regulate.
• 30:56
  So emotional regulation i- is one.
• 30:58
  And then the th- the next one, which, um, is also, they, they had a debate over what to name...
• 31:05
  Well, what her research found, but what they wanna rename it.
• 31:08
  Her research found mindfulness, but it was interesting'cause we all, and even I went,"Ugh." Yes.
• 31:13
  Every...
• 31:13
  Yeah.
• 31:14
  She's like,"Nobody shows up to learn about mi-..." No, it's, like, been badly branded and it needs to change.
• 31:19
  But then where that conversation leaded was exactly what I would agree with, and that is attention.
• 31:25
  Mm.
• 31:26
  And your whole, your little- Mm-hmm anti-boring learning lab- Mm-hmm is attention with intention.
• 31:34
  Mm-hmm.
• 31:34
  And that, to be able to harness your own attention, to understand how you pay attention, to be able to choose what you pay attention to, when, and how much, that attention, I also would say, those core things, and those are the top skills that will f- future ready any leader to be a leader- Mm in uncertain times, through difficulty- Mm build resilience.
• 32:00
  Mm.
• 32:01
  All of the things that we know are gonna help our young ones- Mm-hmm to thrive in their lives.
• 32:08
  And so where are we learning all of these absolutely essential skills?
• 32:15
  Mm-hmm.
• 32:16
  We're learning it right now, I would argue, in coaching.
• 32:18
  Mm-hmm Where does teaching students about the science of learning and their own brains fit into those, um, those five pieces, do you think?
• 32:29
  Or is that an extra piece?
• 32:31
  No.
• 32:32
  I, I personally would put that into metacognition.
• 32:35
  Mm-hmm.
• 32:35
  Because it is understanding what is important to you- Mm-hmm what matters to you, and then how do I direct my, my resources to the thing that I want.
• 32:44
  Right.
• 32:44
  And, and if you want to be, get smarter, if you wanna do well at certain- Mm-hmm whatever you love, whatever you're- Mm-hmm then knowing about how to study and how to get the grades you want so you get into college you want to get the job you want- Mm-hmm we can, you know, take apart- Mm-hmm that whole trajectory, but that's not the point.
• 32:59
  Mm-hmm.
• 33:00
  That's what students right now currently, that's what's driving them.
• 33:03
  Mm-hmm.
• 33:04
  And that, that to me does fit into the, well, both the self-aware- awareness and the metacognition.
• 33:09
  But- Mm-hmm particularly teaching students about the brain and how it learns is fundamental to them being able to then track what they're doing and when and how.
• 33:20
  Right.
• 33:21
  And I notice actually there's a piece of it in all five of those things, because there is, like, attention regulation.
• 33:27
  How do we keep our attention on retrieval practice even though it's effortful and we don't like it?
• 33:32
  Which means how do we, um, regulate our emotions when we're feeling dumb, and we don't like that feeling, and we have to regulate in order to keep our attention where the science tells us it most should be to learn efficiently, which is retrieval practice.
• 33:48
  Some other things as well, but also retrieval practice.
• 33:51
  So it seems like, uh, there's a thread running through all of them of the types of content that we teach in the lab, and I like to talk about the learn tools, the f- the do tools- Mm-hmm and the feel tools.
• 34:04
  And you need kind of all those tools running through all of those different pieces.
• 34:09
  Exactly.
• 34:10
  And to just layer in another piece of this is that recently I created the, the iceberg model- Mm-hmm of where, like, parents or teachers or adults, generally speaking, even, even sometimes the students themselves think,"Well, I wanna..." You know,"You should be able to use a planner.
• 34:29
  You should be able...
• 34:30
  Why are you so disorganized?
• 34:31
  Why is it so hard for you to just hand something in by the deadline?" And that's what we see, um, as the external behavior happening on, you know, the actions on the outside.
• 34:42
  But then if we- Above the water.
• 34:43
  The iceberg above the water Above the water, yes.
• 34:45
  Mm-hmm.
• 34:46
  You're right, yes.
• 34:46
  Mm.
• 34:46
  And then underneath is all these things we just talked about.
• 34:50
  Mm-hmm.
• 34:51
  The ability to be self-aware about what I'm doing and, and who I am, the metacognition to pay attention to what my, my thinking, the emotional, huge emotional regulation, all the executive function skills of- Mm-hmm cognitive flexibility, our working memory.
• 35:07
  Yeah.
• 35:07
  All of, all of that is all sitting underneath these wonderful behaviors that we are seeing- Mm on the surface for students.
• 35:16
  And, and it's, those are the things that are ultimately going to help them to be happy, well-rounded people- Mm-hmm in life.
• 35:25
  Well, and I happen to know that this beautiful image of the iceberg is going to be on your brand-new website that you're currently working on.
• 35:33
  By the time the podcast comes out, I think your website will be live.
• 35:35
  So will you tell us, let's have a little commercial for Susannah.
• 35:39
  Where can people go see that beautiful iceberg image and learn more about you?
• 35:44
  They can go to theefcoach.com.
• 35:48
  And so it is T-H-E-E-F-C-O-A-C-H.
• 35:55
  Great.
• 35:55
  .com.
• 35:56
  Yep.
• 35:57
  Theefcoach.com.
• 35:58
  Check her out.
• 35:59
  Check out The Flexible Mindsets in Schools book.
• 36:03
  Um, I do know Susannah is quite full with clients, but you never know, if you're a parent listening or if you're a coach and wanna refer, uh, Susannah, please feel free to send folks to that website.
• 36:18
  Always happy to have referrals.
• 36:20
  Yes.
• 36:20
  So okay.
• 36:21
  Now I think it's time to transition ourselves into round three, which is all about how you have, um, how you found the Anti-Boring Learning Lab, and then how it's helped you grow and how you use it to support your own practice these days.
• 36:43
  And actually, there's not a question about how you found us.
• 36:45
  So while I'm calling up our, our next three cards for you to choose from, will you please tell the good people out there, how did you land in my world?
• 36:58
  Well, the very beginning of landing in your world is that you and I also share that we are lovers of learning.
• 37:04
  Yes.
• 37:04
  So I'm always looking for new workshops, new, new things that are interesting and different.
• 37:12
  And so I was fi- I was following Seth Perler, and he was having his, uh, yearly TEFOS, which is the executive function whatever.
• 37:24
  The on- uh, yes, online summit.
• 37:27
  It's, um, online summit.
• 37:28
  The Executive Function Online Summit.
• 37:28
  Online summit.
• 37:28
  That's it.
• 37:28
  That's it.
• 37:29
  Yeah.
• 37:29
  Um, and I always love those because you get a whole variety of new people.
• 37:34
  Yeah.
• 37:34
  And I can kind of like do a little window shopping and then just dig into a few people.
• 37:40
  And you were the last person, like it went over the whole weekend, but you were the last person I watched.
• 37:45
  And I dipped in, and then was like, I didn't dip out.
• 37:51
  Mm-hmm.
• 37:52
  I stayed.
• 37:53
  I was like, oh, not only just because of how you spoke, like you were engaging enough that I was like, oh my gosh, I just, I couldn't turn away, but also what you were saying, I really, I could feel right from the very, very beginning I knew that there, this, you were speaking my language.
• 38:08
  And, um, I didn't know you yet, but you offered in that summit, uh, that you were open to a consult if you wanted to find out more.
• 38:18
  Mm-hmm.
• 38:18
  And so I emailed you for a conversation about whether the Anti-Boring Learning Lab, which wasn't called Anti-Boring Learning...
• 38:26
  No, no, that's it.
• 38:28
  I was like, Anti-Boring- It was the Anti-Boring Educators Club back in the day.
• 38:30
  That's what it was.
• 38:31
  I knew there was like a slight difference.
• 38:33
  Um, whether it would be a good fit.
• 38:34
  And then I joined, that September was the first, my cohort that I joined.
• 38:38
  And well, as they say, the rest is history.
• 38:41
  The rest is history.
• 38:44
  Yes.
• 38:44
  So now for round three, would you like card one, two, or three?
• 38:51
  One One.
• 38:53
  Okay.
• 38:54
  Card one asks, which skill from the lab have you learned that has changed you most as a coach?
• 39:02
  Oh, you know, picking one is not easy.
• 39:06
  Well- But I do have a fave.
• 39:07
  I have a fave you have a favorite.
• 39:08
  Okay.
• 39:09
  Yeah, and you can list others too, you know, but tell us your fave.
• 39:13
  Well, we don't have all day.
• 39:16
  Um, the one that changed...
• 39:19
  The one piece that I felt was really missing from my coaching until I met you was definitely the consent burger.
• 39:25
  Mm.
• 39:25
  Uh, I was full of strategies and had been working with students when I met you, and I thoroughly en- was enjoying the work.
• 39:37
  What I didn't have was previous coach training.
• 39:42
  I was a teacher, and so I was a little...
• 39:45
  I, when I transitioned into coaching, I was still a bit teacher-ish.
• 39:49
  Mm-hmm.
• 39:50
  Yeah, like I'm still not.
• 39:51
  But anyway- I'm less and less every day.
• 39:54
  Um, but the consent burger, understanding that inviting people in and having, having that be an explicit part of any session with a student, it even changes...
• 40:08
  It's not, I mean, not...
• 40:09
  It's changed how I work with students, but it's actually even how, changed how I talk and work- Mm not work with.
• 40:14
  Speak with my friends.
• 40:16
  Mm-hmm.
• 40:16
  Understanding that you...
• 40:19
  And asking,"Do you want some feedback?
• 40:21
  Are you interested in this?" Mm-hmm.
• 40:22
  "Can I share something with you?" Mm-hmm.
• 40:24
  It changes the whole dynamic.
• 40:26
  Mm-hmm.
• 40:26
  I couldn't have believed until I actually tried it how much it would change how students were, how open they were- Right to the conversation, how much they, more they were willing to take with them because, simply because there was an invitation.
• 40:42
  They accepted that invitation, and then we reflected on what it was that they learned.
• 40:47
  Putting teaching into the, as the burger into the bun, where we invite in and we reflect on what- Mm-hmm you wanna take away just changed my coaching probably more than anything else.
• 41:00
  And I still think to this day is the magic in- Mm how you have a, build a real, a real meaningful relationship with- Well, it's quite beautiful to, right, right now as you and I are talking, we have a cohort moving through the summer certification program, and one of my joys is reading,'cause reading people's comments about trying the consent burger with their children.
• 41:25
  Because they have to, I require that people practice teaching the mini lectures, the anti-boring mini lectures to someone in their life, and it's really cool to hear people say exactly what you said.
• 41:37
  That, yes, it helps with clients, but it also helps with the, the people that we're closest to in our lives, and I've definitely not just seen that in my life, but I think I came up with the consent burger as a thing partially initially because I live here in the Bay Area of California, which is very coachy coachy, like everybody's a coach, and everybody...
• 41:59
  You know, and so it's like it's practice to ask people,"Can I give you a hug?" You know?
• 42:04
  Or,"I have some advice.
• 42:05
  Would you like to hear it?" It's just practice amongst the people in my community.
• 42:09
  And so I noticed that it had transitioned pretty easily into my work with students, and then it did completely transform students' willingness to work with me And, and what I didn't say but is also true, as you were speaking I realized- Mm it transforms their openness and willingness, but it also helps them own their own learning- Mm which for me is one of the most important things.
• 42:33
  Yes.
• 42:33
  I don't, I don't wanna be the holder of any of it.
• 42:36
  I, I want students to be empowered to own their own learning- Yeah and their own choices, and that is the foundation of that.
• 42:43
  Yeah.
• 42:45
  Beautiful.
• 42:45
  So much more we could say about that.
• 42:47
  I do wanna say, if anybody's listening and you don't know about what the Consent Burger is, you can head over to antiboringlearninglab.com.
• 42:54
  There's a freebies page.
• 42:56
  You can sign up for our free library, and then there's all kinds of information there, including some information about the Consent Burger.
• 43:02
  So have fun taking all that in.
• 43:06
  Um, I do know one of my favorite things about you, Susanna, is that you love to grow and learn, as you just mentioned.
• 43:14
  And so I know that every year you push yourself to continue growing as a coach.
• 43:19
  And so now I'm curious, uh, what are the lab...
• 43:22
  You know, we had, we did this free webinar about the, the five different coaching moves, and I know that one of those moves in particular you were like,"Oh my God, I need to get better at that this particular year." Will you share with folks what that is and why?
• 43:38
  I will.
• 43:38
  I wonder if we're thinking of the same one,'cause I had two.
• 43:41
  Oh, you had two?
• 43:42
  Well, tell us both.
• 43:44
  Well, so one's more boring to me than the other.
• 43:48
  I'll share the boring one first and get it out, out of the way.
• 43:51
  Um, well, the boring one is just because it's, it's about sharing the science of learning.
• 43:56
  Yeah.
• 43:56
  And I say it's boring because, only because I love the science of learning, and I share it all the time.
• 44:03
  And this is kind of connected to the second thing that I wanna work on more.
• 44:09
  Um, but the piece that I thought,"Oh, you know what I'm not doing?" And that would be a nice place of growth for me, is to be able to find specific statistics or facts that support a certain population.
• 44:22
  For example, I have a lot of, um, early, younger high school boys, and I think a lot of what I share just goes right over their head.
• 44:31
  I'm not really hitting on the right science in the right amount of science that speaks to them, and I do definitely think there's some better little nuggets out there that would really help them to say,"Oh yeah, this matters." Right.
• 44:46
  So- So when you're teaching one of our mini lectures, like the study cycle or the study senses or whatever, to arm yourself with some of these facts, more and more of which are coming out every day as the cognitive science grows, so that you can impress them with, with some dramatic information.
• 45:04
  Or at least something more relevant to them than just- Which is what's connected to the piece that I'm more excited about working on is, um, how concise I can be.
• 45:15
  And I'm just someone, and it comes with being a teacher, and, and my love of learning, and my love of information, and I share too much.
• 45:24
  Mm-hmm.
• 45:24
  And it gets me excited, and I think,"Oh, but this piece, and this piece, and this piece, this matters, so let me share it all," and they'll take what I tell myself, or they'll take what matters to them with them.
• 45:36
  But what I think I'm noticing more and more is that in my zest, because it is definitely zest and enthusiasm- Mm I, I, I overwhelm so that then into cognitive overload, so that then they really aren't actually able to take the piece that matters most to them.
• 45:54
  And I recently had an experience in your wonderful retrieval practice of watching a new coach, new-ish coach, deliver a mini-lesson from the back in the beginning how it would be at its essence, in its nutshell.
• 46:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 46:10
  And I was reminded, I don't say it like that at all anymore because I layer in all this science into it, and every piece of it has science for me now.
• 46:20
  And I don't choose based on where I am in my work with the student, based on this particular student and what I think would be useful to them.
• 46:29
  And, and it was so refreshing just to have a simplified version and trust that it's enough.
• 46:35
  Yeah.
• 46:36
  And I want more of that.
• 46:38
  Well, you've been in the lab for how long now?
• 46:40
  Like eight years?
• 46:41
  Six years.
• 46:42
  Six years, so it's about time to sort of go back through and start trimming all the extra.
• 46:47
  Yeah.
• 46:49
  That you've b- you've been layering on your own special sauce, which I encourage people to do, and now it's like,"Oh, what gets trimmed?" So that you can get back to the essence of what a student needs to hear.
• 47:00
  And another word from your, that I learned from the Andy Boring Learning Lab, which is honed.
• 47:05
  It, it's trimmed, but more importantly even honed.
• 47:08
  Mm-hmm.
• 47:08
  I want it to be a little sharper.
• 47:10
  I don't want it to be everything.
• 47:12
  I want it to sharpen into what does this particular student in this particular moment need from me- Mm-hmm not...
• 47:17
  And, and I have, and because I can do so much of the rest of it- Mm-hmm just off the top of my head now, I think that, that is something I could get even better at.
• 47:26
  Yeah.
• 47:26
  Uh-huh.
• 47:28
  Beautiful.
• 47:28
  Well, I'm just so honored and thrilled that you stay a member in our community, and that I get to watch you grow.
• 47:28
  I get to grow alongside of you.
• 47:28
  You're one of the biggest cheerleaders for me in the areas that I am wanting to grow in, and I so appreciate having your companionship.
• 47:46
  I'm aware, speaking of being concise, we should wrap up.
• 47:51
  But it also suddenly occurred to me, Rachel Martin ends the podcast, The Wild Card podcast, by asking for, um, a trip into your memory machine.
• 48:01
  But I'm gonna be more specific here,'cause there is one more thing I want you to talk about, so I'm gonna be tricky about how I ask this question.
• 48:09
  Could you just share a moment in the lab where you have felt the most playful and the most yourself?
• 48:20
  She's laughing'cause she- I'm laughing because I totally know.
• 48:24
  But- Yeah, I'm, I obviously, I feel like I'm wanting to talk about playful practice, which is a very specific practice within the Anti-Boring Learning Lab, where we come together to be our most...
• 48:45
  It, it's for recovering serious people- Yes which I am, I own fully.
• 48:50
  Mm-hmm.
• 48:50
  Um, it's not- And me too.
• 48:51
  Total recovering serious person.
• 48:53
  Yeah.
• 48:54
  And it, and it almost comes a little bit with being a teacher.
• 48:57
  Like, there's just a lot- Mm there's a lot wrapped up in that.
• 48:59
  Mm.
• 48:59
  Mm-hmm.
• 49:00
  And I like to unravel that because- Mm-hmm I do think that there is, what I'm trying to focus right now on and find the words for as I'm trying to talk, Gretchen, is what I was just saying to you.
• 49:12
  Like, when I speak about what playfulness is,'cause it's not- Yeah about being...
• 49:16
  Like, I would have thought before I met you that being playful was about being silly.
• 49:20
  Mm-hmm.
• 49:20
  And I truly do not believe that that...
• 49:22
  For me, being playful is being able to be present in the moment, and to be with myself, and to, um, let my, let my own body and mind do, you know, to be freer- Mm-hmm within myself.
• 49:40
  It's a freeing up, not a, not a silly game type thing.
• 49:46
  I mean, we do play games, and that does help us to loosen up.
• 49:51
  But do you remember what I said to you about the- I know what you're referring to- Yeah and I don't remember the...
• 49:56
  It came from another podcast.
• 49:57
  You can tell that Susanna and I listen to a lot of podcasts Right and share them with each other.
• 50:00
  But I don't remember the details right now.
• 50:06
  I don't either, so it doesn't matter.
• 50:07
  I have to trust that that doesn't matter, that I embodied the, the feeling of playfulness, and that that comes, I think being a coach, being able to see you model how to be yourself- Mm and then w- realize that, oh, I can just be myself with the people around me.
• 50:28
  And that is, that is freeing, but it's also energizing actually, because I'm not, we're full circle back to masking, I'm not masking.
• 50:40
  Mm.
• 50:40
  I'm just showing up as my best self in that moment, whatever that is on that day- Mm-hmm or in that moment.
• 50:46
  Mm-hmm.
• 50:46
  And knowing and trusting that it's okay.
• 50:48
  And part of the playfulness is even being able to name that.
• 50:51
  Mm-hmm.
• 50:51
  That, oh, you know what?
• 50:52
  Today I'm feel- feeling a little uh-uh, whatever.
• 50:55
  And knowing that students actually just kind of love that, that you just show up as yourself.
• 51:00
  And, and being okay with whoever that may be in that moment.
• 51:05
  And that's what playfulness, playful practice has helped me, and continues.
• 51:09
  I mean, I think that's a lifelong thing.
• 51:11
  Mm-hmm.
• 51:11
  I d- I don't think you ever, you know, that's not something you end up arriving at.
• 51:15
  But it's, I'm so enjoying being in the club, learning how to be even more playful in the work that I do.
• 51:23
  And in my own life,'cause that's another thing.
• 51:25
  That it is not just about what I do with students.
• 51:27
  Mm-hmm.
• 51:28
  Absolutely translating to my whole life and my friendships.
• 51:32
  Well, I'm just so pleased and honored that you were our first guest here on the Academic Coaching Podcast, and I hope our listeners show up for more.
• 51:43
  My plan with this podcast is to talk to, sometimes to Learning Lab members, as Susanna and I did today, sometimes to guest experts.
• 51:52
  We actually do have Seth Perler coming on, uh, very soon.
• 51:56
  Actually, by the time this dropped, Seth's will have dropped as well because, uh, TFOS is coming up, and I wanted to support him in getting the word out about the Executive Function Online Summit.
• 52:07
  And there are many other fascinating conversations to come.
• 52:10
  They may or may not be with the cards.
• 52:14
  We'll see if that was successful.
• 52:17
  But otherwise, I'm just so honored that those of you who are still listening stayed to the end.
• 52:22
  So thank you for being here, and, uh, please enjoy our future episodes of the Academic Coaching Podcast.
• 52:28
  Take care, everyone.