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How to Be a Creative Communicator (with Nikomas Perez) · The Daily Writer

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Hey friends, welcome to episode 96 of the Born to Create podcast.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Kent Sanders, and this is the show where we explore the mindset, habits, and skills to help you make a bigger impact in your creative work.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: One of the most important skills you can develop is good communication.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter whether you're a writer, painter, dancer, videographer, or any of a hundred other areas of creative work.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: You're always going to need to present to create content and work with customers, readers, and clients.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm thrilled today to feature a conversation with my friend Nicomis Perez.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: He's a teaching pastor at Harvester Christian Church in St.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Charles, Missouri.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: And this is my church, so I'm really excited to feature him on this episode.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Nicomis has a background in student ministry, then he transitioned to teaching adults a number of years ago.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: He's an extremely gifted teacher and communicator, so I thought it would be fun to have a conversation about his process and his methods.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: You'll hear about his journey as a communicator, his fascinating process for crafting a message, how to get emotionally invested into a message when you're not feeling it, and his process for evaluating his messages.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: The main thing that you'll take away from this conversation is the need to develop a process for not only creating content, but for also getting better over time.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: And even though Nicomas is coming from the perspective of a teaching pastor, there is a lot of application here for every type of communicator.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a really fun episode, and I know you're going to enjoy it.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: And after you listen, you can check out the show notes at KentSanders.net slash zero nine six.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: All right, let's get to the conversation with Nicomas Perez.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Nicomas, thanks for taking the time to do the show today.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Glad to be here.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Looking forward to it.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: So the reason I wanted to have you on the show today, uh there's several reasons, you know, like I mentioned uh a bit ago before we hit record, is sometimes it has to do with the person, and I want to interview the person because I respect what they do and who they are, and I sort of find a way into that interview topic-wise.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: At other times it's because I want to explore a specific topic and then I find somebody who knows about that topic.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: But there is a third category of people that I interview on the show, and that's people who fall into both categories, which is you, because I wanted to talk about preaching because you're a fantastic communicator, but also because you're just a cool guy and somebody that I thought it would be fun to have on the show.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to tell my children that.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'm gonna have a sign made for myself.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm actually cool to some.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: There's a podcast listener who says I'm cool.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm cool.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Ask someone other than my kids.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: So let's start out with your journey as a communicator.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: Can you talk, take a couple minutes and share with us your journey as a communicator and a preacher slash pastor, slash talker, slash message giver, whatever title you want to put on it, from college up through what you're doing today?
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, um mine actually started in high school, right before I got to college.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_03: I um I knew I wanted to go into ministry, and uh I had a pastor, I went to this small church, about 50 people.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_03: He gave me the opportunity as a teenager to uh speak at our work or at our worship services on the weekend.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_03: And I was 16, 17, nervous as can be, um, horrible as can be.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: I actually have a uh a video of my or it's an audio recording on YouTube of my very first sermon.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, it's supposed to be 30 minutes long.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_03: I hit all of six minutes, and half of it is me saying, uh uh Yeah, I've done that.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's the worst thing in the world.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_03: So embarrassing.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_03: Uh sound like uh I'm from Southern Illinois, so I've got that that Southern Illinois accent too, and so I keep that as a reminder of it's been a long journey.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_03: But uh from college, I went into um college not wanting to do preaching or speaking whatsoever.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um, my heart was in youth ministry, and I came to came to Jesus a little bit later in life, and um I didn't quite understand the different roles, but what I was really excited about was the message of the Bible.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_03: And so for me, I felt like the message was something that I was really drawn to, really excited about, and um I just wanted to be able to share that in some different ways.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so I jumped into the youth ministry world to share it with teens.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: And um, the interesting thing about the youth ministry world is it's probably the only, other than the preacher of the church, the only position at a church that gets to speak every single week.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'd never thought about that.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like you're you're preparing lessons, you're writing lessons and messages and sermons, or you're speaking at camps and you put on these events, but you don't have the money to pay for someone to come in.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_03: So it's you doing it all.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_03: And so speaking multiple times a week in college um and then after college as well was really where I got my experience.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: And man, if you youth and teenagers, that's a place to get experience because you either sink or swim when it comes to speaking with teenagers, which you know it's like if you're not holding their attention, they're gonna let you know it.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so it's a it's a rough place to learn, but a great place to learn um in student ministry.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so really I did student ministry for about 12 years until I was in my mid-30s.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_03: And um speaking with that, just trying to find my flow, trying to figure out what works in that to hold on to a teen's um their attention, to grab their attention span, make that attention span a little bit longer was part of my goal because I really felt like it, man, I have an important message to share.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I need them to listen, and I need to hold on to them.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_03: And so that that youth ministry journey, man, that was a that was a trip, and I learned so much from that.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then just coming to at Harvester Christian Church, where I'm a pastor, um, the the preachers there, the lead pastors there, Brian Job was the first one to have me speak to adults, and then Doyle, every single week now, um, we're getting together, and he's like, all right, when are you gonna get up there next?
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_03: And so just always having those people that are older than me saying, Nicomas, we're gonna give you an opportunity.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I want to give you an opportunity to speak, and then having them just be honest with me about, hey, here's what you could do better, here's what, here's what doesn't work in this context, etc.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_03: So um just what I've been most thankful for is what I've learned from people who have just given me an opportunity.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: Saying, Nicomas, if you care about the message, we're gonna give you an opportunity to share it.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that is a key element of the creative life in general?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's a key element of I think life and success in general, but the idea of so many times we see other people doing what we want to do, they're successful in some something, whatever that thing is.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: And there's there comes a moment where we either say, okay, I'm just gonna sort of be bitter and jealous because they have something that I perceive that they've been given and I don't have it, or we look and say, okay, what opportunities do I have that are around me right now, whatever those things are.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to take advantage of that and learn something and be humble and grow in my skills, but it's gonna be a series of steps, it's not gonna be immediate.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Is that sort of how you perceived that that journey to a degree?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: I think so.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: I think one of the I I came from a small church, had no clue that there was different size churches.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't grow up in the church, so I just assumed every church was like mine.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: So I never really started with an an idea that there was a stage or that there was a certain size of group or people.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_03: I really fell in love with um the message.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so for me, it was like I just want to share this message.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't matter what the the context is, and the context changes.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but to take opportunity and take advantage of every opportunity, um, to even to the point of just saying yes.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_03: Anytime I get an opportunity to speak as I'm growing, I'm like, yeah, I'll I'll go to out to camp.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_03: I'll spend I'll spend a week on a iron bunk bed if I get to share this message.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I'm not looking for pay, I'm not looking I'm not asking how many people are coming to the camp.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_03: I just love doing this form of um art, as you would have it.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_03: And um I think being in love with the art more than the um presentation of the art is key.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_03: Of man, I just love I just love this art form.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_03: And no matter where I get to share it, I'm gonna share it.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: So would you say that you felt called soon after you started to do communicating and preaching, did you feel a real spiritual calling to that?
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_03: Very much so.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_03: They it was a a person who I I'll put it this way, I started going to church in middle school.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_03: I never went to church before.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so for me to sit and hear for the very first time someone share this is who Jesus was in the creative way that he would connect that to my life.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's a story I didn't know, didn't understand like first century Judaism as a middle school.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_03: That's exciting.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but to be able to share that in a way that says, this is how it impacts your life, and to feel light bulbs go off in my head is like, man, that that's a light bulb moment for me of man, I did not know this, and this person was able to creatively share that and connect with me.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_03: How many other people don't know this?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_03: And what why am I not creatively trying to connect that with them as well?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that has impacted your style, you would say.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, even all these years later, because when I think of your preaching style, I think of creativity.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's the first word that always comes to mind because it's never just okay, I'm gonna get up and do the sermon and go through this rigmarole.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, when I think of your preaching, I think of creativity.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: So that early experience really shaped how you have approached preaching.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, for sure.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_03: So for me, it's obviously there's the information of the message that you want to share.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: But typically when I'm writing a sermon or thinking about preparing, I'm thinking about how can I build a bridge from information to uh real life scenario for the person who's sitting there.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_03: And that's usually where the creativity starts out.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_03: The information is all the study, all the stuff that everybody's gonna have.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but if I want to connect to that person's life, I've got to figure out how to build a bridge.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_03: And that bridge building, that's the creative process for me.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_03: Of like, okay, first I need to understand who this person is, what makes them tick, what can they connect with, and then how, what kind of bridge do I need to build to them?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like I can take first century Judaism, first century Jesus tied to 2019 for a listener.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: So let's take a few minutes and can you help walk us through the process here at Harvester Christian Church?
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: Now, for those of you who are listening, I've mentioned Harvester Christian Church many times on the show.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: I've interviewed a few staff people, and that's this is kind of you know, a big part of my social circle comes from this church, so naturally I know a lot of people here.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so this is kind of a familiar theme on this show is Harvester.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I know every church does their sermon prep a different way, but how do you do it here, all the way from the big picture of, okay, here's the the theme we're gonna try and tackle this year in our messages, all the way down to okay, I've got to preach this week, here's my process for preparing this message and even rehearsing and sound checks and all that stuff.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because I want people to understand the craft that goes into here's what actually happens to bring you the product of a sermon.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: I know we don't think of it as a product, but but it is a creative product that has been crafted for an audience.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, when you when you go to church on the weekend, you see that weekend, and the assumption is well, they they just figured that out on Monday.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they came on Sunday morning and they just kind of figured it out.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_03: It was like actually every single weekend at Harvester at least has been thought about at minimum six months prior to that weekend.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: That would blow most people away.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_03: So like the stuff that we're dealing with today is going to be happening six months from now.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um but it six months um previously, usually we're trying to figure out what's a series that we need to address for our congregation.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_03: So it's again figuring out where our people are and what are some of the issues that are happening in the world or what are some of the theological things that we want to address that haven't been addressed.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then laying out sermon series for the next six months to 12 months.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_03: So it might be there's a few sermon series we do every year.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_03: We want to talk about the life of Jesus every year.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_03: We want to do a character study every year.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus is pretty important.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, he's uh he's a if you're gonna be at a church, maybe preach a Jesus on Jesus.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: So we've got a few of those series where we know we're gonna do those every year.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um so that's about six months ahead of time, about three months into that process, uh, three months away from the weekend, um, we actually have a teaching team that sits down together.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, there's three or four of us, we sit down together and we begin to plan out um if we're gonna do a six-week series on Jesus from the book of Luke.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_03: We'll actually assign passages for that six weeks, and then we try to walk away with that from that meeting with what is our one-sentence big idea thesis statement for that service?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: Uh we don't write the whole sermon, but it's like here's the one sentence that we need to unpack on that weekend.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_03: And then we try to walk away with a call to action as well.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_03: After we preach this, what do we hope happens in our congregation?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_03: What do we hope happens in someone's life?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really key thing, I think, in any kind of communication is having something that is a tangible takeaway.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of just putting it out there and hoping that somebody takes something practical away from it.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: So you go to a lot of trouble to really spell that out, what that looks like on a tangible level.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, if we if we build a bridge from the text to the people, we want people to walk that bridge.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_03: And so we're like, here's here's how you take that step across it.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_03: We've we've shown you Jesus, we've shown you you, and now here's how you can get from where you are to where Jesus is.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um and that that's typically about three months ahead of time we begin to do that.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we also begin to assign topics to the speaker of the day.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_03: So it's about three months ahead of time that I know what I'm gonna be speaking on.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so that's where the sermon process begins for me personally, where I've got my my date, my topic, my scripture, the big idea, and the takeaway.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_03: And so I my process is I put those all in an Evernote file.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_03: I I love Evernote.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_03: We could talk about Evernote for hours.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I have each sermon separated into a different note so that during that three months before I preach that sermon, I know in my head what I'm gonna be speaking on.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_03: And so if if God is doing something in my life, or if a story or something happens in my life that I'm like, man, that would really fit with this topic that we're talking about.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_03: I can jot a quit quick note on that sermon, Evernote file that I've got.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, or whenever I'm studying my Bible with just personal devotion and God is like working on things in my heart, um, I can take those things that He speaks to me and put them down on that Evernote file as well.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_03: So that I have those little mile markers that I've gone through, things that I've experienced that I can share with people as well.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: So when you are writing a sermon, because you're thinking about this ahead of time, it has you you're giving it a lot of time to sort of brew and uh there's another word I'm thinking of.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Marinate.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Marinate, yes, thank you.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it has time to sort of saturate your mind, and and your mind is even unconsciously looking for things and thinking, oh, I could use that in the sermon, as opposed to saying, okay, what do I got to preach on this coming Sunday and rushing to get it done?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, too.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I know some people who they'll sit down on Monday, not have a clue of what they're gonna talk about in the case.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_03: And the pressure that you feel even when you are prepared to start from that, to start from scratch.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_03: Under the best of circumstances, that's that's when you lose creativity too, because you're no longer thinking about creativity.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_03: You're thinking about I've got to get 30 minutes and bullets and points.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_03: I gotta survive.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_03: I gotta, yeah, I can't drown when I'm up there.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so to have that time, creativity, I I think is planned creativity for me.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_03: And so having those moments where I can type those out in um in the Evernote file is really key for me.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know what you're gonna preach on.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: How far in advance do you actually sit down and write this?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, actually, let me back up one thing.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: When you are constructing your message, so here I'm getting into the nitty-gritty of all this because I'm just curious about it.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think other people are as well, um, especially who do any kind of communication for business or for education or preaching or whatever.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: When you are constructing your message and you're developing that content, do you write it out manuscript or do you write it out as an outline, or how do you what do you actually produce to give you the sermon?
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, I'm an outline guy.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_03: And so typically when I walk up on um in on our stage to preach, I've got one, maybe two pages with me, and it's just bullet points.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_03: And so now that's that's the final product of a week of paring down to two pages, though.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: So my typical week of, I usually start on Monday.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_03: That's the first time where I sit down, and that's where I start to put some of that information together.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: So um, I usually do about two hours on a Monday and two hours on Tuesday just researching the passage, um, researching the text, trying to learn as much as I can get.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_03: Part of my process is not just um figuring out what I'm gonna say, but learning the topic.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_03: Because when I get to Sunday, I want to be able to stand up there.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_03: If I don't have my paper, if someone has a question, I just know enough about it that I can have a conversation about it.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because you've been in that topic and that message for months, literally.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: And so Tuesday I'm studying.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um, Wednesday is where I take all of the study and I begin to throw it out on a this massive Word document.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's unorganized, it looks horrible, it's frustrating.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, it's like four pages of all these things that I want to say.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um and it looks like a manuscript, but it's just a whole bunch of nonsense, really research.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um where the process begins for me is so on Wednesday I spend about four hours putting all that information together, but then I get to a point where it's like my rapid fire round of I know, okay, it's I have to have information on a piece of paper for our media arts team who makes the bulletin by Wednesday.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: No pressure.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: That's a lot of pressure.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_03: They're like, hey, we're printing our bulletin to hand out to people.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_03: So you need to be able to do that.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_03: Where is your outline?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_03: I need to be done.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_03: So what I've actually done, and this has been this has been great.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I give myself 10 minutes.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, okay, I've had all this stuff on paper.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_03: I got 10 minutes to figure out my three points.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and in 10 minutes, I'm shooting it over to our media arts team.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: What happens when you you develop that, but then as you study more, you decide I really want to go with something else.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Has that ever happened?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_03: It has.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I usually don't tell people that I've moved on from the bulletin though.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's just the the OCD people on the weekly.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, they're like, I gotta fill in that blank.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so for the most part, I try to stick to those points.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_03: So um I will only give my my main idea point and then maybe two of my bullet points, but nothing else.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um I'm okay if everything I say is not on that paper.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um so for me, like that that moment of creating that online, that's when I try to word everything appropriately.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: I call it my tweetable phrase.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what is what's my sentence that's short, it's tweetable, it's memorable, the it can be rattled off if it's said, and I try to get down to those two points.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_03: And then that's actually what I start from scratch, then with those points and write the rest of the sermon.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_03: So on Thursday, that's a full writing day for me.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_03: So it's eight hours of okay, here's the the perfectly worded things that are in print now.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_03: How am I gonna how am I gonna write this sermon and walk it?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think that would that would maybe surprise most people who don't realize the and I'm not saying every pastor does this, uh, everybody has their own process, but most people would be surprised that you have spent literally the majority of your working week, the previous week, working on that 25 to 30 minute message, however long it ends up being.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: So this is not something that is just thrown together, it's crafted, you've poured over it.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's so much preparation that goes into that.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: Most people don't realize it.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_03: And then even what you what you hear on a Sunday is only maybe a third of the work that you've done.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_03: You do all this work, and then you got to spend so much time, like, man, that that that really doesn't fit the topic, or this is this is interesting and valuable, but it's more of a rabbit trail.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_03: You're cutting it out.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_03: It's painful.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's real painful of like, man, that's that could be life-changing for someone, but it really doesn't hit what we're trying to talk about on that weekend.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_03: And so um, most people are like, how do you come up with all that information?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, the hard part is how do I how do I get rid of information?
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_03: That's the hard thing for me.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_03: How do I decide what not to say?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: How would you say that speaking to adults in an adult worship service is different than speaking to, let's say, high school or middle school students?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it really that different?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I I've had a lot of people ask me that because I've I've done student ministry, I've spoken specifically to middle schoolers for many years, um maybe 10 years.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't know that I've changed my my strategy for writing or my style of speaking.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um what's changed is my time.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_03: I try to go shorter with middle schoolers.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um so typically about 15 minutes is about all that they they'll handle.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_03: With an adult, you can go um around 30 minutes before they're just checking out, or like, all right, I get the point.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_03: You should have taken out a little bit more of this survey.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um probably the one thing that I do change is the um personality that goes behind the message.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_03: So I might walk up with the same man or outline manuscript to speak to middle schoolers and uh adults.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: It might be the same one, but just the way that I emphasize words or the way I'll draw out words, or I'll I'll get really excited about this point and have to plaster on a smile and be over-animated for them.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um whereas adults, you can you can do that still, but they they'll respond to those those quieter those points and where you slow down and you draw them in.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um so that's really what I try to change is more of the style.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_03: Now the illustrations obviously have to change.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_03: When you're building a bridge from Jesus to a middle schooler, um it's a different bridge than you build from Jesus to a thirty eight year old guy.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: So they're dealing with a whole host of other issues in middle school versus adults.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_03: So it's mainly just the illustrations.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: It'll change.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: So what happens on uh let's say Sunday morning when you get to church and you're not feeling it?
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: You've prepared, you know, you believe in what you put together, but emotionally you're not in a headspace to want to preach.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you had a family argument that morning, maybe you're not feeling well, maybe the weather is bad.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like this year, the first few weeks of 2019, the weather was crazy.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I know um production-wise, that throws a wrench into a lot of things whenever you know attendance is all over the place and you gotta re cancel services and all that kind of stuff.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: What do you how do you overcome that as a creative person, as an artist and communicator, when you've got to deliver, but you just are not feeling it emotionally?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Do you do something to get yourself in a better headspace?
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so um one of the things I do, like I try to finish my sermon on Thursday, and then I don't look at it or touch it on Friday or Saturday at all.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um I I just relax from it and let those ideas, like we said earlier, just marinate on those two days.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: But what's key for me is to get back into that emotional place of writing, because Thursday is an emotional day for me.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's like man, I'm feeling it and I'm ready to preach this now.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_03: I want to do it right now.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_03: Like, oh, I gotta wait two more days after this.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: That's crazy.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_03: And so I'll actually get to church um pretty early in the morning.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: And for me, I'm I'm more of an introverted person.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_03: And so I I need to be by myself, and I go through it's an emotional roller coaster beforehand of I'm excited, it's fine, the day's finally here.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_03: And then I look at my Word document and like, oh no, all I've got is a Word document that I'm taking up there, and it's it's scary.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_03: I still get nervous, incredibly nervous.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: Really?
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um because for me, I don't I don't write like jokes into it, or I don't write anything, any personality into it.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm like, God, I don't I'm introverted and I'm not sure if this people are gonna connect with this.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_03: And um, so I I do a lot of just I lay my paper before it and say, just come before God and just admit I'm not the I'm not the best speaker in this church.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not the the best anything, and this is all I have to give.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_03: I'm giving it to you whether it's good or not.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um today's the day that we we ship this message.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so to to do that beforehand, and then one of the things I do before I go up, um, I know preachers do it a lot differently.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_03: Some preachers can be out with the congregation and worship and sing and be with people and then go up on stage.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I can't do that for me.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: Uh like I can do that after the message, but beforehand, I have to be all by myself and be in prayer and because I'm I'm getting nervous and I'm getting scared, and I have to completely clear my head of okay, this isn't me.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_03: This is about this message that I'm passionate about.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: And um, if I connect it or not, uh I know someone in this room needs to hear this.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_03: If it's just one person out of the people that that are here, then I'm good with that.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: So as you're speaking, you're on stage, you're in the middle of the service, you know, the worship time through music, that that's over with.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's you on stage.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: What are some things that are going through your mind as you're speaking?
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: Are do you look for certain people that are kind of giving you emotional indicators in the audience who who you're look you're looking at and you're looking for signs that you're connecting, that they're getting it, that they're understanding.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Are there what things go through your mind in a big auditorium like we have?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_03: You'd be surprised what goes through a person's mind when they're speaking.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_03: Like you're questioning yourself.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_03: You're like, did I already you're talking and you're asking, did I say this already?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_03: Or is this point coming up?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_03: Or um, because I'm a uh a bullet point guy, I I don't use my notes a whole lot.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um I know here's my five things I need to say.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_03: So I view it as a journey of I'm going from A to point B.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know how I'm gonna get there when I'm up there, but I know that's where I'm going.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_03: And so I'll start it, and however I get to B, I get there.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_03: And so I'm not looking at my notes, but what I'm looking at is the the congregation.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I try to view preaching um in what may be a little bit different for me than uh someone else's.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_03: I don't view it as a I need to hit these outlines and this points, is I need to have a conversation with the people that I'm speaking with.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_03: And so this is a me and one person sitting in a room talking about this.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_03: And so um, I don't know if you've ever noticed this, but when I'm talking, I I'm presenting one idea, and then I put myself in the chair and I ask myself the question.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_03: So this is what the Bible says.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_03: Now you may be thinking or you may be asking.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and I love that because you're you're I'm trying to imagine as best you can.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: Here's what people, here's how they might respond to this.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: So that really I think draws people in.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because it it makes us realize, okay, he's thought about how we might respond to what he just said.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and and when you do that, then the people feel like you're not speaking to a crowd, but you're speaking to me.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_03: And so, like when I'm up there and I'm talking, if someone's connecting, then it's typically within the first five minutes, if I see someone make eye contact or they're sitting up, that's usually who I'm coming back to in their in their section throughout the rest of the message.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_03: And so I I want to make eye contact until it's uncomfortable and then move on.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_03: Really freak them out.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: I try not to just scan the crowd, or some people were look over the crowd, or I never picture people naked in the crowd.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: I have never done that either.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: That just seems to that.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: There's a bunch of reasons that seems awkward or sort of strange.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's not a good idea.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, probably not.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: So um so I do try to try to make those connections um with people.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_03: And um one of the the benefits of having your your story beforehand or your sermon topic beforehand is one of the things that I do for at Harvester is we have this prayer wall that's on our website.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_03: And so I'll hop on there and look at people's prayer requests, and then I'll see those people sitting in the in the crowd.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: And so I'll know what's going on in their life, and so I can actually even sometimes rephrase an illustration to meet the need of some individuals, yeah, knowing that it'll meet more than just that person.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but trying to apply that to their life.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: Has there ever been a time where you were on stage here at Harvester or somewhere else where you felt like I just crashed and burned?
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: I have no idea what happened.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that was a flaming mess.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm having a hard time picturing you doing that because I've never seen anything that resembled that as far as you go.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: But internally, has there ever been a time where you just felt like this just did not go well?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: And how did you recover from that?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_03: The at Harvester we have three services.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: So I feel like that every time I've done preaching the first time.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_03: That's funny.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_03: Most people wouldn't wouldn't, you know, think that you would feel that way.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you get to because you get to preach it three times um in our setting.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_03: And so that first time is the first time for me.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_03: I don't practice.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_03: So I I I learn it, I get it down on paper.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: I I never practice it once.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_03: So the first time it's ever spoken out loud is the first time I preach it.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so that's the first time that comes off, and I'm like, now I have to make a judgment.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_03: Is that the way I thought it was going to come off in my brain or not?
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um typically in an adult setting, I never feel like I crash and burn because adults are just too kind.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, that's true.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_03: They will look at you and smile and nod their head and not be thinking about a lick that you're saying.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_03: And they'll they'll give you the pity laugh.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_03: You can tell old man preacher jokes, and they'll think it's the most funny thing in the world.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um the places where I felt it most is with the people who are more honest, people who aren't church people and people who are middle schoolers and high schoolers.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_03: Because they'll let you know right off the bat you're not connecting.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_03: Uh they'll stop looking at you, they'll turn around, they'll get up and leave, they'll fidget, they'll start talking with people around you.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_03: And so those are the moments where I'm like, man, this is I didn't I didn't put the work into building the bridge.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_03: Because typically for me, it's I've got the information, but I'm presenting the information without building that bridge to their life.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_03: And they're not, they're not having it.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: That makes a lot of sense.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: How do you something that I think a lot of creative types struggle with is separating their perceived success with their art, whatever that is, separating that from their value as a person.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: Is that something that you have ever struggled with in terms of okay, you felt like a sermon went really well, therefore you're kind of feeling on top of the world, or you felt like this didn't go well, and I feel emotionally bad about that, or I'm just feeling down on myself.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: How do you how do you deal with that as a pastor and a communicator?
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, separating the perceived success of your ministry from your worth as an individual.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, for sure.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um the I'll I'll be honest with you, it's become harder speaking with adults.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um whenever you're speaking with teenagers or people who are far from far from the faith, um, don't believe in Jesus.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_03: There, those aren't people who give you any value after you get done.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_03: So you speak the word and they're not gonna say, hey, this is what I liked or this is what I didn't like, they hear, and then they move on.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um adults, they they just want to encourage you, especially when you're young, yeah.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_03: They want to lift you up and say, Man, this was the most amazing thing I've ever heard.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I'm not used to that because I'm like, I I don't think it was.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_03: And I think you're just being kind.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_03: And so for me, it's I'm I'm a pretty critical person of myself.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, not critical of you.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_03: I've never preached a sermon and thought that was amazing.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um I've preached a sermon and thought, okay, that was truth.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know that it was good or not.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um That's really fascinating.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_03: I have my wife who I she's she's the kindest person.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_03: If you know my wife, she she will never say anything bad, and I'm trying to egg it out of her of like, I need you to tell me what I can fix on this because I don't think that people are gonna be truthful with me.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_03: They're just gonna be encouraging, and the people who didn't like it aren't gonna say anything.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: Especially in the church world where you know we tend to all be really nice to each other generally.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_03: So for me, I try to be my my biggest critic, and so we videotape our sermons because we we put them online or we live stream them.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_03: I watch every single one, every single time I do it on Tuesday, and I tear it apart of man, this was a bad way to say that.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_03: You use too many likes or uhs or um your facial expressions didn't match the emotion of what was coming out of your mouth, you move too much, and I truly try I just really rip it apart there.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um because my fear is hearing all the positive things from nice people will make me think that I'm somehow in a place where I don't need to keep improving.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um to be honest, that scares me to death.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, I don't want my value to ever be in what they say of whenever I get up and present that I'm looking for affirmation.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_03: I want to see life change after that.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_03: I want to hear stories after that.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_03: And if I see people doing things that they didn't do before, um, I'd rather get some uh joy out of that.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's just something that I think all artists struggle with is looking for, you know, we all have a need for external validation of some kind, whatever that might look like in our industry or our line of work.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: But the problem is that if you just rely on that, then it's your emotions are like a yo-yo, you're up and down all the time because so-and-so liked this Facebook thing or so-and-so hated this thing that I did, or this thing didn't sell, or whatever it is.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, yeah.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that to me represents you know what you're talking about is a very mature and helpful perspective on okay, I can emotionally distance myself enough from my preaching where I can I can rip it apart when I watch the video and learn from what I from things that I perceived I could have done better, or learn from the things that I felt like I did well and to reproduce those and everything.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: So that to me takes a lot of courage to sit down and watch yourself and to analyze and learn from it.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_03: And uh it's learning that from people like you who are in the the educational um field where it's teaching students, um, that's what I learned at St.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_03: Louis Christian College of hey, let's let's evaluate this and let's try to improve it.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_03: If the if the message is that important, there's gotta be a better way to say it.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_03: And so for teachers like you to be able to do that to individuals who are in the art world, um, it really teaches them how to do it for themselves too.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: So as we start to wind, uh well, not winding down necessarily, but we're kind of on the back the back end of uh this conversation.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: This has been really fun, by the way.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: I've been looking forward to having it for a while.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: So so you're this is like a counseling session.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: We're just kind of getting all of our emotions out here on the table.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: We need more tissues here.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna owe you some money when I'm when I'm done with this.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: So what kind of things inspire your creativity in life in ministry?
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_03: For me, it it's probably interaction with people inspire me.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_03: People are just so creative in general, like real stories of people.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not I'm not a fiction book reader.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so my wife hates that about me.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_03: My my daughters, they love fiction books, but I don't I don't read fiction books because I think life is just so interesting.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um just the the everyday life.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, one of the things that inspires me most and gives me the most creativity is listening to comedians.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, totally.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_03: Not only do they make me laugh, but their craft, like how they can take everyday life scenarios and turn that into like a a moment for for people.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I've I've learned a lot from that.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_03: Of man, what's happening around me?
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_03: What's what's happening in my own life, what's happening in my children's life, what's happening um in the my co-worker right next to me.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_03: And there's so much inspiration that we overlook on an everyday basis that um once you start thinking about it, um, and then you have an Evernote file to write those things down in.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's very inspiring to have that.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_03: So uh family, um, teenagers still to this day, the teen, the young adult world, their lives are so dramatic and so there's so much stuff that's happening.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's yeah, um, everything's on on crack for them that it's so interesting and inspiring that um it's like, man, that that'll that'll preach because I I I think we're all still middle schoolers.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_03: We are.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, we're just old teenagers.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, really.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_03: We've learned how to cover up the interesting thing parts of our life so that we can be presentable.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_03: And what I love about teenagers is it's all out in the open.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's like all the interesting stuff.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: So as adults, we just learn to be more passive aggressive and hide, you know, and hide those negative emotions a little bit.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: It all comes out in unhealthy ways now.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: It does.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: Social media, you know, whatever, whatever things.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: What would you say is one habit or practice that has contributed the most to your success if you had to pick just one?
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_03: Opportunity, probably.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um just making the most of every opportunity.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: One of the things I I always try to do is take an take another opportunity to to speak.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_03: Whether it be a wedding or funerals, that's to be honest with you, outside of my comfort zone.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um but uh even when it's outside of my comfort zone, if it's weddings, funerals, if it's elementary kids or senior citizens, um, taking every opportunity to to speak has been a big thing for me.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um but also uh just participating in other people's art and craft and sermons, just processing um other other people who speak.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um I'll listen to anybody who speaks.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_03: And one I just like taking information in, but I like seeing how they do their craft too.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: Any particular speakers that that really you listen to and you think I have really learned some things from them or I love their style?
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_03: There's a ton of them.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_03: So on my internet browser, I actually have a a folder bookmarked of 10 or 12 speakers who um usually every other week I'll go through and see, okay, how have they said some different things?
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um when it comes to preaching, um, some people that I enjoy are people like Matt Chandler, um, from the theological perspective, so I broke him out into categories.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_03: From the theological perspective, I like how he takes theological truths and makes those applicable.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um from a non-church perspective, um, building bridges to those people, uh, Tim Keller is someone who I listen to to figure out how he does that.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_03: He's not very inspiring or energetic, but the way he builds those bridges, I try to take that from him.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: His content is stellar.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um Andy Stanley's one that just the way he words things in a way that's like you can remember it and grab hold of it as someone that I think he speaks in tweets, you know, basically.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then I follow it's on Instagram I do this.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_03: I follow a whole bunch of African American preachers on Instagram because the energy and the passion they have for their topic, it's like, man, that's something that I want to learn about how not just to present dry information, but I want to connect not just to the people's brain, but to people's heart as well.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_03: And so people like Mike Todd is one of them that um in uh Tulsa Alcohol that I listen to as well.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: Any specific comedians that you really like?
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like that that you you love, you look at their craft and you think, that is so good.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: There's something I can learn from that.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: Or ones that you want to admit on a podcast.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, all right, who doesn't say bad words?
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um hardly anybody.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um comedians in Cars Getting Coffee is I love that show.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_03: Is one where I'm just drawn to that because they talk about the craft.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_03: And so um really it's it's any comedian, even if I don't like them.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_03: So Seinfeld is obviously one that is uh is interesting to listen to.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um I I usually watch a lot of them on the late night shows because they'll typically tone down the language they use on there.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_03: Really any comedian who who speaks professionally, even the the they used to do the show where it's um basically the American idol of comedians in watching all of the people uh and their different crafts.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_03: Pretty interesting.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: I remember seeing uh this was a short video I think put out by the New York Times a few years ago where Jerry Seinfeld was talking about how he crafted it was a joke, I forget what the joke is about, but he broke down this intricate process where he is dissecting every word of the joke.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it was fascinating because you realize, I mean, you you kind of think, okay, an hour's worth of of material on stage from a comedian is not that much stuff.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, a pastor preaches 30 minutes every week, but then you realize, okay, that was an hour where every word was crafted and thought through and poured over and you know, switch slightly switched around so there's an emotional beat here or something.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, it's and I'll even try to do that a little bit with the sermons because I've learned from people like uh Jerry Seinfeld when they're doing that of man, if I'm gonna use a powerful phrase at the end to connect with emotion, I want to set that phrase up at the beginning.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_03: Or I want to start with the story at the end, the beginning that's gonna set me up to the end point as well to try and tie things together rather than just bullet pointing them.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: So the next time you preach, you could bring a full circle, you could have a door on stage and just come to the door like it's cramery.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you have your hair up really high.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: No, just kidding.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: That would be awkward.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: Probably a copyright violation, too.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_03: More of a George Castan, George Kistan.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: You have the big wallet with the cards popping out and stuff.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: So let's uh wrap this up with our infamous lightning round.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: This um this has caused more consternation with my podcast guest because everybody says the same thing.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, how do I narrow it down?
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's so hard.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh okay.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: So what is your favorite movie?
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_03: Or one of them?
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_03: Favorite movie.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_03: I've got four that are tied for the first favorite movie, but if I had to choose one, it would be Saving Private Ryan.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_03: Really?
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_03: That's a great one that just I love history one.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_03: I love storytelling too.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_03: But then just the cinematography.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_03: They they done something that wasn't done before with the darkness and the the shaky camera feel and oh yeah.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_03: It was just amazing.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_03: When I watched that, I felt like I was there.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_03: Scared me to death.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, I'm glad I wasn't there.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_03: But uh great movie, great story.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, favorite music group or solo artist?
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_03: This is a tough one for me.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I prefer solo artists.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I'm more into the folk rock genre.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_03: So if I had to choose a 90s, 90s one, it would be um Counting Crows as a group.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_03: I love them.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um these days I really love listening to Ray LaMontaine and a group called Lone Bellow.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_03: Nice.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_03: Zach Wims.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you've heard of them.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_03: I haven't heard of either one of those.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like, I don't know how to describe it.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's like mountain folk rock, like a gritty voiced kind of sound.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_03: Is it anything related to like Mumford and Sons?
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_03: Similar.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they're they've got a little bit more bluegrass than these other two bands, but I like guys who sing, it sounds like they got throat cancer.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_03: So that's like Chris Stapleton.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's my favorite kind of voice.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_03: Drill Gravelly.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_03: Barely hear what they're saying, but it's amazing.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: But there's so much emotion and grit in it.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they come across like they've been through all these trials in life.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: You find out, you know, they grew up in the suburbs of you know Chicago or something.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's amazing.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, next one is your favorite book, fiction.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you said you don't read fiction, so it would be nonfiction, I guess.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I don't read fiction.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_03: I try to read one fiction book a year, um, just to appease my wife.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um favorite book is probably other than um Bible, obviously.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_03: I love I love reading the Bible.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I'm not that's not being a uh cliche, but it's it's an amazing book for me.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um The Advantage, I love The Advantage by Patrick Lincioni, just leadership skills.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: I love his fables, yeah.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um if it's speaking, um I really love Communicating for a Change by Andy Stanley, but there's another book, and I don't remember who wrote it off the top of my head.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's called The Art of Storytelling.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's about how to tell stories.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_03: John Walsh.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_03: Is it John Walsh?
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_03: I think so, yeah.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_03: Just the way that that's changed my life.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, man, that's a book I recommend a lot.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_03: Cool.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'll have links to those in the show notes.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, uh, what was a creative failure that you experienced and what did you learn from it?
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um the one that I experienced most, we were doing this.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_03: I was um we were doing this service where it was going to have this big ending and uh Um we were gonna shoot confetti out over the crowd and we didn't have confetti machines and um we uh hooked up we the tore paper up.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_03: No, we used a three-hole punch.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_03: We got a whole bunch of three hole punch pieces of paper.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_03: We just emptied out those things.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_03: That would take a lot of time.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_03: Put them in a trash bag and thought if we cut a hole in the bag and put a leaf blower on it, that would be amazing.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um but we didn't practice it.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_03: So the moment came and it's just a big glob of paper fell on the ground.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_03: And so um one of the things I learned about creativity is especially from that moment, if you're gonna be creative, you have you can't just think of a good idea and then put any effort into figuring out how to pull off the idea.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: The execution is such a key part of it.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, creative.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_03: Everybody thinks creativity is just the idea, but all the planning that has to go into creativity to have that emotional moment, to have that tie-in.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, if you don't do that, you don't get the the bang.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: And even when it comes to things like a worship set in church, you know, if it's well put together and well planned out, there's a lot of forethought that goes into the emotional moments that that even just one song has, the dynamics of it and the instrumentation and all that stuff.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_03: And it takes time to get there, which is why it's easy to see.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, last question in the lightning round, which uh is what project are you most excited about working on right now?
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_03: This is this is a hard one.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um project am I working on?
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_03: Well, right.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_03: Could be anything, I guess.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_03: Well, right now, um, I'm a teaching pastor at a church, but that doesn't mean I don't get to do other things.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_03: So right now I'm building a photo booth.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_03: Very nice.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_03: We we try to do photo booths for our people to take pictures in front of.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_03: And the past few years, I've looked at them like, I think we can up our game this year.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_03: And so I made that suggestion, the creative idea to up our game.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_03: And guess who gets to try to up our game somehow to me?
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_03: You made the suggestion, I guess you get to implement it.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I do a lot of time sitting with books and crafting words, and so right now I'm crafting a wood photo booth.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_03: Trying to be Joe and chip gains right now.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_03: Nice, I'm I'm looking forward to seeing how that turns out.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: So if you take a ministry in Waco, Texas, we'll know what happens.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, I might I might be the church of Magnolia.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's true.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody will do that at somewhere, probably.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_03: So it's it's fun to work with my hands, so I like doing that.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um, those are projects that I look forward to.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_03: Getting away from talking.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Nicomas, this has been a lot of fun.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I appreciate you taking time out to do this.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: This is gonna be a lot of great information for pastors, educators, communicators, and anybody who listens to sermons.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: So they can can know what goes into the process.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_03: I hope so.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_03: You do you do a good job putting together a whole bunch of conversations that uh are important for creative people.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thanks.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate letting me be part of it.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely happy to.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: How can our listeners get in touch with you and connect with your work?
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_03: Best way is probably social media.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_03: So I've uh got a Facebook page that's where I'll put some like clips of some of the sermons that I've done up there and try to do some creative writing on there.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then I'm big on Instagram and Twitter as well.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna I'm gonna continue to put this plug in for you to think about writing a book because you're such a gifted writer.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just I'm I'm waiting.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I've I've got a 16-year-old daughter who wants to be an editor.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, there you go.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_03: I'm waiting for her to get her degree so that I can get success with some editing.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_03: Editors are important.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_03: And she hopefully will be free, right?
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_03: A daughter would give it a few.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_03: I would think so.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_03: At least a discount.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, at least a discount.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_03: Not her.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: She would charge more.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, double.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks so much.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: This has been great.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me, Ken.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Nicomas.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: Here are my three biggest takeaways from this episode.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, you must love the process of creating the art, not just the moment of presenting your art.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this is a really fine distinction, but I believe it's really important.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: Nicomas talked about loving the process of crafting a sermon and not just loving presenting the sermon.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you get the sense that he really loves the study and the preparation aspects of creating a message and not just being on stage.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that is so critical to us as artists because so often we want the acclaim and the attention, but we want to avoid the hard work of creating the art.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: Now, of course, I know that probably doesn't apply to you, but it definitely applies to me, and I'm being a little sarcastic there.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think it applies to all of us at times.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: Let me give you an example from the writing world.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of writers don't honestly love writing, but they love having written a book.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, that's kind of a trope that you hear a lot of times with authors is man, writing was so difficult, but I love the fact that I have written a book.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that's so often true.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: We love holding that finished product in our hands, but the process of crafting it can be really emotionally difficult.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, just before uh I recorded my part in this episode, like literally 30 minutes ago, I got off the phone with one of my coaching clients, and he was talking about how much of a struggle it had been to produce a first draft of his book and how emotionally draining that was.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's really, really common.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: We all struggle with that process, I believe.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: And we tend to really love the finished product, but sometimes when it comes to crafting the product and the process of doing that, that can be really difficult.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to encourage you to fall in love again with the process of crafting your art, whatever that art is, whatever the steps you go through to create whatever it is that you create, don't despise that process.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: Rather, embrace that process and love all the steps that you have to go through.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I know at least for me, when I look at it that way as every part of the process is really fun and enjoyable, and I'm learning something through all those steps, then the end result, it's not that it doesn't become less important, but it becomes just one more step in a whole line of steps of crafting something.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: Takeaway number two, you must chip your art.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: You must chip your art.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: When he was talking about preaching, Nekomas said this about Sunday mornings.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: He said, today is the day we are chipping this message, talking about whether you're ready to or not.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: Sunday's coming, and Sunday's the day that you have to chip or you have to present that message.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: He talked about how on Sunday mornings, oftentimes he's nervous and scared.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to be honest with you, that really surprised me.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: I've known DeComist for a long time, and he is an extremely smooth and engaging communicator.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he's really just at like at the top of, you know, one of the top five preachers I've ever known personally.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_00: He's just really, really good.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: But nevertheless, he still goes through that process because that's when it's due.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: Nikomas talked about the fact that on Sunday mornings, he is sometimes nervous and scared, which honestly really surprised me.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: He is such a smooth and engaging communicator that, you know, I see the finished product on stage, and then I go, wow, how could you be be nervous or scared?
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: But yet there's still sometimes that feeling of, hey, I don't feel quite ready to do this, or I don't know exactly how this is going to turn out.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: But yet he goes through with the process because that's when the sermon has to happen.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's the due date.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's the shipping date, if you will, whether or not he feels ready for it.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we all go through that sometimes.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: There's a date that something is due, and things something like a blog or a podcast where we have a due date, we have a date that it has to ship.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: Now we feel like it's totally 100% ready.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: We just have to put it out there.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_00: But the cool thing about that process is that when we do that, we get better over time.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: So the frequency we're putting stuff out there can actually help us to improve the quality of it.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: I remember back when I worked at a church as a worship pastor, that's one thing that I really learned being involved in music and the arts is that someday's coming, and whether or not you feel ready, you've got to get up on stage and do your thing.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_00: So you develop this routine of learning to become ready for it, as at least as much as you possibly can, even though sometimes you may not feel 100% ready.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_00: So my question for you is are you shipping your art or are you constantly preparing and perfecting everything and not quite putting it out there for other people to experience?
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_00: Finally, takeaway number three is this.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_00: When you are speaking, have a conversation with people instead of giving a presentation.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: And Ecomas gave us a really great insight.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: He said he puts himself in the seat of the audience and he imagines how they might respond to what he's saying.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: And this shows that he's really thought about how the crowd might respond to what he's going to communicate with them.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: And the result is that people feel he's not just speaking to them as a crowd, but he's speaking to them as individuals.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_00: One of the classes that I teach at my college is speech, and it's just a basic freshman-level public communications course.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_00: And how I often describe speaking to my students is that we need to bring a gift to them.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: And many times I think the reason that we feel nervous whenever we get up front is because we're afraid of the audience judging us.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_00: And we're perceiving that what we're doing is a performance where we've kind of bring got to bring our performance and we've got to do our thing and you know, dance around and and say all the things that we want to say, and we have to be perfect.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_00: But in reality, we have to reverse that thing.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of feeling nervous about our performance, we instead can view what we do as bringing a gift to people.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_00: This helps calm our nerves, and it makes it about the audience and not about you.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it also helps when you view what you're doing as a conversation with individuals and not just as a huge crowd out there.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, friends, those are my thoughts, but I'd love to hear what you think about this episode.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_00: You can do that by heading over to Apple Podcasts and leaving a rating and a review, or by leaving a comment on this episode at catstanders.net slash zero nine six where you will also find out the show notes.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_00: Today's quote comes from Mother Teresa who said, Yesterday is gone, tomorrow has not come.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: We have only today.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_00: Let us begin.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, remember that you were born to create and designed to make a difference.