Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Baby's ashes confused with pet & moms charged with infant abuse

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Baby's ashes confused with pet & moms charged with infant abuse · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel one thirty two.
1:40
Speaker 1: I had a stillboard baby after two years, which she
1:43
Speaker 1: realized that what she was holding onto while she was
1:46
Speaker 1: mourning wasn't her daughter but somebody's dogs flicking Late Mary
1:49
Speaker 1: keep a wake up. Jericho Sky died in April. It
1:52
Speaker 1: was taken to the Bower Funeral Home in Cantanning for creation.
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Speaker 1: Jennifer receiving a box with the cremins, cherishing them for
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Speaker 1: the past two years, but it wasn't until this week
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Speaker 1: that she actually decided to open the box and view them.
2:03
Speaker 1: And there was a metal plate in there said Butler
2:07
Speaker 1: pet cremation. And when I've seen that, I knew something
2:10
Speaker 1: was wrong. She called the funeral home immediately. They told
2:13
Speaker 1: me a mistake had been made. I was given somebody's
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Speaker 1: pet and they were given my daughter. A Pennsylvania mother
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Speaker 1: now says she is living a quote nightmare, a nightmare
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Speaker 1: she can't wake up. From after this, Pennsylvania mom discovers
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Speaker 1: that last week the box she believed to beholding her
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Speaker 1: daughter's remains, her baby daughter's remains for the last two years,
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Speaker 1: actually contain dog remains. I just had to let that
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Speaker 1: just sink in for a moment. I Nancy Grace, this
2:59
Speaker 1: is crime Story's thank you for being with us. You know,
3:02
Speaker 1: when you lose a loved one, it is so traumatic.
3:07
Speaker 1: I just went through the death of my father and
3:10
Speaker 1: I still recall when my fiancee was murdered. It's something
3:14
Speaker 1: you never forget. You never really quote get over, although
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Speaker 1: a lot of people think that you do. You just
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Speaker 1: go on, you sold your on, But then to find
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Speaker 1: out that the cremated remains that you have held, dear,
3:31
Speaker 1: are those of a dog, it's insult to injury. Joining
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Speaker 1: me right now is a very special guess. It's Wendy
3:42
Speaker 1: Russell Wiener. Her expertise is regulatory death care. She is
3:50
Speaker 1: a very well known lawyer with Broad and Casselle, of
3:53
Speaker 1: Florida based law firm, but she consults nationwide on issues
3:59
Speaker 1: just like this. It's a very unique niche and the
4:03
Speaker 1: practice of law. Wendy Russell Wayner, thank you so much.
4:07
Speaker 1: For being with us. Thanks for having me Nancy. Wendy,
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Speaker 1: Before I get started on this, poor Pennsylvania mom, I
4:14
Speaker 1: gotta ask you, how did you get in the funeral business.
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Speaker 1: I started my regulatory law practice as an insurance regulatory
4:24
Speaker 1: attorney here in Florida, UH and at that time part
4:28
Speaker 1: of the death care industry was regulated by the Department
4:31
Speaker 1: of Insurance. But the regulatory scheme changed over the course
4:35
Speaker 1: of years, and my practice followed the regulation to its
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Speaker 1: new regulator, and now in Florida, all of deathcare, from
4:45
Speaker 1: funeral establishment and cemetery and crematory regulation all the way
4:50
Speaker 1: up to the regulation of pre need contracts is all
4:53
Speaker 1: handled by one regulator, and I UH practiced law before
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Speaker 1: that regulator on a regular basis and U Over the years,
5:00
Speaker 1: my practice grew to representing clients nationwide on a consulting basis,
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Speaker 1: helping them interact with their regulators and see their way
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Speaker 1: through issues. Wendy, I gotta tell you something, um, this
5:16
Speaker 1: has been my experience of funeral homes. When my dad
5:19
Speaker 1: passed away, our little funeral home um in making. You know,
5:26
Speaker 1: it was a small town in Georgia where we grew up,
5:29
Speaker 1: could not have been nicer to my mom, and it
5:34
Speaker 1: was a horrible time. We did not I think I
5:36
Speaker 1: told you about this story when when I first met you.
5:40
Speaker 1: It was a horrible time. We did not expect my
5:42
Speaker 1: dad to pass away, and it was just a shock
5:45
Speaker 1: and a blow to all of us and they could
5:50
Speaker 1: not have been kinder. That was followed by the also
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Speaker 1: unexpected death of my husband's dad and mom, and same
5:59
Speaker 1: story with them. It's a really difficult time in people's
6:03
Speaker 1: lives while the loss of your loved one is so raw,
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Speaker 1: and you immediately have to start dealing with a funeral
6:11
Speaker 1: home and figuring out what you're going to do with
6:15
Speaker 1: their dead body. I wish I had never even seen
6:18
Speaker 1: my dad's dead body, but I did. And you're You're
6:22
Speaker 1: dealing with people at a really hard time in their lives,
6:26
Speaker 1: and absolutely is one of the most difficult times that
6:29
Speaker 1: people go through dealing with the loss of a loved one.
6:33
Speaker 1: And uh, really, for the most part, the death care
6:37
Speaker 1: industry is a great industry. Uh. You mentioned your positive
6:41
Speaker 1: experience with the industry, and UH, almost always, the death
6:46
Speaker 1: care industry does everything that it can to get it right. Unfortunately,
6:52
Speaker 1: there are times where mistakes are made, which results in
6:57
Speaker 1: situations like the one we're talking about now. Well, okay, Wendy,
7:02
Speaker 1: Wendy Russell Weener with me as specialist in regulatory deathcare.
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Speaker 1: This has been brought to our attention when a Pennsylvania
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Speaker 1: mom says she is quote living a nightmare she can't
7:13
Speaker 1: wake up from. She discovers just last week the box
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Speaker 1: she has held dear to her heart for the last
7:19
Speaker 1: two years that she thought was holding her baby daughter's remains.
7:25
Speaker 1: I can't even imagine what could be worse than losing
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Speaker 1: your child. You know, I lost a fiance, I lost
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Speaker 1: a parent, but a child. I think, Wendy, you just
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Speaker 1: have to lay me down in front of the railroad
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Speaker 1: track and just run over me if I lost one
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Speaker 1: of the twins. So she loses her baby girl and
7:43
Speaker 1: it's held these remains close and finds out they belong
7:48
Speaker 1: to a dog. Listen to what the mom said. This
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Speaker 1: mother told me she's had to go through months and
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Speaker 1: months of intensive therapy just to get over the loss
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Speaker 1: of her daughter. But after two years, when she realized
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Speaker 1: is that what she was holding onto while she was
8:02
Speaker 1: mourning wasn't her daughter but somebody's dog. It's like a
8:05
Speaker 1: nightmare I can't wake up, bro. I had a stillborn baby,
8:08
Speaker 1: Jericho Sky died in April. It was taken to the
8:12
Speaker 1: Bower Funeral Home in Catanning for cremation. Jennifer receiving a
8:15
Speaker 1: box with the cremins, cherishing them for the past two years,
8:19
Speaker 1: but it wasn't until this week that she actually decided
8:21
Speaker 1: to open the box and view them. And there was
8:24
Speaker 1: a metal plate in there and I read it and
8:28
Speaker 1: it said Butler Pet Cremation. And when I seen that,
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Speaker 1: I knew something was wrong. Scared and confused, she called
8:36
Speaker 1: the funeral home immediately. They told me that a mistake
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Speaker 1: had been made and I was given somebody's pet and
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Speaker 1: they were given my daughter. It's humiliating. I'm horrified. As
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Speaker 1: many times I sat and I cried and I held
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Speaker 1: that her and cried myself to sleep, grieving for my daughter.
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Speaker 1: You know, let please dog bow. Our funeral home says
9:03
Speaker 1: they contract with the Thompson Miller Crematory which made the mistake.
9:07
Speaker 1: Both funeral homeowners speaking with us about the error. The
9:11
Speaker 1: mistake is mine, quite honestly, I made a mistake. I
9:14
Speaker 1: had two identical containers. I just simply put the wrong
9:19
Speaker 1: label on the wrong container. I wanted the public to
9:22
Speaker 1: know how deeply saddened I am that this happened, and
9:26
Speaker 1: um that I'm so sorry for the family, and it
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Speaker 1: was a mistake, it was human error, and I'm just
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Speaker 1: so thankful we were able to rectify it extremely quickly.
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Speaker 1: Jennifer received the correct cremains this week, which luckily the
9:38
Speaker 1: dog owner had kept intact. But she's still not satisfied
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Speaker 1: after all that's happened. Do you accept their apology? No?
9:47
Speaker 1: How can I How do you make a mistake like that? Now?
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Speaker 1: Jennifer and her husband tell me they're still uncertain about
9:54
Speaker 1: whether what they have is really their daughter. They tell
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Speaker 1: me they're thinking about possible DNA testing and could sidering
10:00
Speaker 1: legal action. Wendy, there you hear Jennifer Daly telling W T. A. E.
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Speaker 1: That her daughter, baby Jericha, was cremated in April of
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Speaker 1: two thousand fifteen, at this Bower funeral home. The funeral
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Speaker 1: home gave the grieving mom a white box. A bag
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Speaker 1: was inside, supposedly containing the remains. I never heard the
10:27
Speaker 1: word kremains. Is that a new word, Wendy. It's new
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Speaker 1: to me now. It's just an industry term. Used to
10:34
Speaker 1: describe cremated remains. It's very it's very typical. She says.
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Speaker 1: She held onto the cremains for two years, not daring
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Speaker 1: to look inside the box even once, because of the
10:45
Speaker 1: heartbreak of looking at the ashes. And I think that
10:48
Speaker 1: was her baby girl. So recently her husband suggested they
10:52
Speaker 1: spread the ashes somewhere that they felt with wholesome many
10:56
Speaker 1: for their family. Wendy Russell Weener, can you imagine just
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Speaker 1: shot the mom was too upset for two years to
11:04
Speaker 1: even look at the remains. She could not look at
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Speaker 1: the cremated Absolutely not unusual. Uh and uh where uh.
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Speaker 1: Mistakes such as this occur when a crematory or a
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Speaker 1: funeral establishment provides uh the incorrect cremated remains to a family, uh,
11:26
Speaker 1: and then they don't check for a period of time.
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Speaker 1: Oftentimes that makes even a very difficult situation more difficult
11:36
Speaker 1: because at at that point, when so much time has passed,
11:40
Speaker 1: often it's impossible to get the correct cremated remains into
11:45
Speaker 1: the right hand. So here we note Daily says, and
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Speaker 1: I'm talking about the mother Jennifer Daly holds onto the
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Speaker 1: cremains two years, not having the heart to look at them.
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Speaker 1: The husband suggests they finally spread them. He encourages her
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Speaker 1: to moot, try to move forward, and this is her quote, Wendy,
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Speaker 1: I finally worked up the nerve to look into her
12:06
Speaker 1: urn and look at my baby girl's ashes. And there
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Speaker 1: was a metal plate and I read it and it
12:15
Speaker 1: said Butler Pet Cremation. Oh, dear Lord in heaven. Wendy
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Speaker 1: Russell Weener, I would have fallen over dead, because if
12:30
Speaker 1: you see that, You're like, well, then where is my daughter?
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Speaker 1: Where is my daughter? If I've got a dog, if
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Speaker 1: I've got something from Butler Pet Cremation, where's my daughter?
12:41
Speaker 1: Can you imagine the shock this woman had when she
12:45
Speaker 1: saw that in there, Wendy, Absolutely, I'm sure it was um,
12:50
Speaker 1: extremely uh difficult. Um. It's It's interesting because in the
12:56
Speaker 1: United States, Uh, pet cremation has become a much bigger
13:04
Speaker 1: part of the depth care industry. Uh people in the
13:07
Speaker 1: United States. Uh, We'll hold on, Wendy, Wait a minute, Wendy,
13:11
Speaker 1: everybody in the studio here is making a face. I
13:13
Speaker 1: don't know why why you're making the face because upstairs
13:16
Speaker 1: I have a teak container of my cat Coco that
13:20
Speaker 1: I took in as a stray remains, and I'll never
13:23
Speaker 1: forget the day Coco, who was a boy cat, passed away.
13:27
Speaker 1: That cat help me get through my pregnancy. I love
13:30
Speaker 1: that cat. And when I had to move to New York.
13:32
Speaker 1: Just so you know this, Jackie, he looks skeptical of
13:35
Speaker 1: pet cremation. When I had to move to New York
13:38
Speaker 1: to start my job with Court TV and Johnny Cochrane,
13:41
Speaker 1: the cat stayed with my now husband, David and with routinely,
13:45
Speaker 1: as David was watching TV, just come up and bite
13:47
Speaker 1: him in the ankle and run away. And I was
13:48
Speaker 1: so happy. Okay, So I love that cat. Had the
13:52
Speaker 1: cat eighteen years. Eighteen years. So don't scoff at pet cremation, okay,
13:58
Speaker 1: because I hope to see Cocoa again. Go ahead, Winding.
14:01
Speaker 1: You make exactly the point that I'm making. Uh, you
14:04
Speaker 1: illustrate it perfectly. Uh. People love their pets. Pets are
14:08
Speaker 1: part of the family, and so as uh the deathcare
14:12
Speaker 1: industry has seen a deed. Uh. Pet cremation has become
14:17
Speaker 1: a much bigger part of the business. Um it is
14:20
Speaker 1: not are they supposed to be in the same facility, Wendy,
14:23
Speaker 1: because this place has human and pet cremation in the
14:27
Speaker 1: same facility. Something about that does the same right? Well, uh,
14:31
Speaker 1: you pick up on something interesting. We don't know for
14:34
Speaker 1: sure that the cremations were done in the same uh machinery. Um.
14:39
Speaker 1: But it's not uncommon for a deathcare owner operator to
14:44
Speaker 1: have both a human crematory and a pet crematory. UM.
14:50
Speaker 1: It is unlawful in many states for pets to be
14:54
Speaker 1: cremated in a human crematory. But UM, it is not
15:00
Speaker 1: unusual for pets to be cremated in a building adjacent to,
15:07
Speaker 1: or or even in the same building as as the
15:10
Speaker 1: location for a human crematory. Okay, I'm glad to hear that.
15:16
Speaker 1: The mom Jennifer Daley goes on quote. They told me
15:19
Speaker 1: a mistake had been made, and I was given somebody's
15:22
Speaker 1: pet and they were given my daughter. It turned the
15:25
Speaker 1: worst thing that could possibly happen to me in my
15:27
Speaker 1: life into a thousand times worse you know, um. Wendy
15:34
Speaker 1: Russell Wayner, I told you when we met about how
15:37
Speaker 1: I ended up becoming a prosecutor after the murder of
15:41
Speaker 1: my fiancee, And for many many years I would have
15:43
Speaker 1: dreams that Keith was really actually alive and that had
15:47
Speaker 1: all just been a big hoax because he didn't want
15:49
Speaker 1: to get married. I mean, what a cruel and horrible dream. Okay,
15:54
Speaker 1: this sounds like one of those horrible dreams, except it's
15:58
Speaker 1: real now in mineral Glenn Miller, the owner of the
16:02
Speaker 1: funeral home, is she is. Sheed a personal apology, claiming
16:07
Speaker 1: the mistake is mine honestly. I mean, he just put
16:10
Speaker 1: it out there, said, I made a mistake. I had
16:12
Speaker 1: two identical containers. I simply put the wrong label on one.
16:16
Speaker 1: And but how can that happen? And how can you,
16:21
Speaker 1: I guess I'm trying to figure out, how can you
16:24
Speaker 1: look at ashes? If it had not been for that
16:26
Speaker 1: tag in there, would she have ever known she didn't
16:31
Speaker 1: have her daughter's ashes. No, but it is very common, uh,
16:37
Speaker 1: and is required in many, if not most states, that
16:40
Speaker 1: the disc from the cremation machinery, which is known as
16:45
Speaker 1: a retort, that the disc from the retort actually be
16:48
Speaker 1: placed inside of the What are you calling it a retort?
16:53
Speaker 1: How do you spell that retort? R E T O
16:56
Speaker 1: R T okay? Retort? Okay? And that's the name of
16:59
Speaker 1: the sheenery that actually performs the cremation. So um, every
17:04
Speaker 1: time a cremation occurs. Uh, there is a little disk
17:08
Speaker 1: which is affixed to the retort that identifies uh, certain
17:14
Speaker 1: information about the person or the pet being cremated. That
17:20
Speaker 1: disk is then placed into the actual cremated remains once
17:25
Speaker 1: the cremation process has been completed and the pulverization of
17:31
Speaker 1: any remaining bone fragments or or teeth or things that
17:36
Speaker 1: were not reduced to ash during the cremation um during
17:40
Speaker 1: after the pulverization process occurs, then UH, that disk is
17:45
Speaker 1: usually placed inside of the cremated remains, inside either a
17:50
Speaker 1: bag or inside of the urn if the cremated remains
17:53
Speaker 1: go directly into an earth. So you're telling me that's
17:56
Speaker 1: the safeguard that the facilities use. That retort that is
18:02
Speaker 1: in with the body should identify the correct cremated remains, right, Well,
18:07
Speaker 1: the retort is the machinery. UM. The tag that was
18:12
Speaker 1: in the cremated remains is affixed to the retort and
18:15
Speaker 1: then it goes into the cremated remains. And that is
18:18
Speaker 1: really uh the best identification of the person or pet
18:24
Speaker 1: being that has been cremated, UH, that a licensee or
18:29
Speaker 1: a funeral homeowner operator, a crematory owner operator can use
18:34
Speaker 1: to determine, um, whose cremated remains are with. So let
18:38
Speaker 1: me understand this, because you were you were talking in
18:41
Speaker 1: a lot of legal and technical jargon. Look, I'm just
18:45
Speaker 1: a criminal trial lawyer. Wendy Russell Wainer. Hold on, let
18:48
Speaker 1: me understand this. So you put the body through something
18:51
Speaker 1: called a retort, and there is a tag, a metal
18:54
Speaker 1: tag affixed to or connected to some way to the body.
18:59
Speaker 1: So when the crew made it, remains come out, the
19:02
Speaker 1: correct tag is there. So what happened here? It sounds like,
19:07
Speaker 1: is he just put the wrong sticker on the outside
19:10
Speaker 1: of the remains. That's what I think happened. Does that
19:13
Speaker 1: sound right to you? It does? It does sound right.
19:16
Speaker 1: And and as the as the gentleman identified with the crematory,
19:22
Speaker 1: uh indicated, Uh, this appears to be a mistake made
19:27
Speaker 1: by the crematory operator where they affixed the wrong identification
19:32
Speaker 1: to the box. Well, this is what we know. Um.
19:37
Speaker 1: The mother says, quote, it's humiliating. I'm horrified. As many
19:42
Speaker 1: times as I sat and cried and held that turn
19:45
Speaker 1: and cried myself to sleep grieving for my daughter. And
19:49
Speaker 1: it was somebody's dog. The mother says, Uh. Now the
19:55
Speaker 1: mom and dad are left wondering whether a d n
19:58
Speaker 1: A test needs to be performed and if it can
20:00
Speaker 1: be performed on cremated remains, which I really don't think
20:04
Speaker 1: that it can to determine whether the cremate. Did you
20:07
Speaker 1: say no, it cannot No, No, it's um. There's a
20:12
Speaker 1: pretty widely held misconception that uh DNA survives the creamation process,
20:17
Speaker 1: but it does not. The science behind that. I did
20:20
Speaker 1: not think it did, Wendy. So now they don't know
20:24
Speaker 1: what to do. They don't really believe. They're not sure
20:27
Speaker 1: these remains are really their little girls. Um. They were asked,
20:32
Speaker 1: do you accept their apology? Answer? No? How can I
20:37
Speaker 1: How do you make a mistake like that? How do
20:40
Speaker 1: you mistake a dog for a human? It's like a
20:44
Speaker 1: nightmare I can't wake up from, you know, Wendy Russell Wyner.
20:50
Speaker 1: In my line of business, people's lives were really on
20:55
Speaker 1: the line, literally with many cases that I tried, and
20:59
Speaker 1: you're line of business, people's lives are forever changed depending
21:06
Speaker 1: on the outcome of their experience with me. Wendy Russell Wiener,
21:12
Speaker 1: an expert in regulatory death care, an attorney with Broad
21:17
Speaker 1: and Casselle in Florida, but consulting nationwide. Our special guest today, Wendy,
21:23
Speaker 1: I guess you've heard it all right, probably probably. Well,
21:28
Speaker 1: let's pray this mother has the right remains now and
21:32
Speaker 1: the jury is out. Wendy, thank you. And now on
21:37
Speaker 1: crime stories, the eighteen year old Carlyle mother accused of killing, burning,
21:41
Speaker 1: and burying her newborn baby, is now out of jail
21:44
Speaker 1: while she awaits trial. Her attorney had a short statement
21:47
Speaker 1: for reporters. I can tell you the brook Skyla Richardson
21:50
Speaker 1: did not kill her baby. This morning, Richardson walked into
21:53
Speaker 1: Judge Donald Otis court where she entered a plea of
21:56
Speaker 1: not guilty to murdering her newborn child. And honor student
22:01
Speaker 1: cheerleader varsity cheerleaders now under suspicion for murder, repeat homicide.
22:10
Speaker 1: That's right, an honor student cheerleader is now suspected in
22:14
Speaker 1: the gruesome homicide of a baby, her baby Brooks scholar
22:20
Speaker 1: Richardson sat demurely in court as charges were read against her,
22:28
Speaker 1: and she's already out walking free on bond. The high
22:32
Speaker 1: school girl will high school grad is accused of murdering
22:36
Speaker 1: her baby girl and conveniently burying the baby in the
22:43
Speaker 1: backyard beside the barbecue pit. All right, what's concerning me
22:48
Speaker 1: right now other than the initial shock of giving birth
22:52
Speaker 1: to a live newborn child according to the district attorney,
22:57
Speaker 1: and then waiting for the right chance to bury the
23:00
Speaker 1: baby in the backyard and then go about life normally
23:02
Speaker 1: as if nothing had happened. Is how she's going to
23:05
Speaker 1: be treated in court and the facade that she is
23:10
Speaker 1: displaying in court. Um, that's what I'm thinking about now.
23:15
Speaker 1: Brook Skyler Richardson appeared in Warren County Court for a
23:19
Speaker 1: pretty trial conference before Judge Donald Oda the second. Her
23:24
Speaker 1: trial is set to go forward in a matter of weeks.
23:27
Speaker 1: She has pled not guilty to the charges of aggravated murder,
23:32
Speaker 1: child endangerment, tampering with evidence, and gross abuse of a
23:36
Speaker 1: corpse in connection to the death of the infant child.
23:42
Speaker 1: She's already released on fifty grand, which equals to five
23:47
Speaker 1: grand because you only put up ten, and she has
23:51
Speaker 1: agreed to wear an ankle monitoring device. That that's it.
23:55
Speaker 1: There is an uproar in the community and critics have
23:59
Speaker 1: accused thee of going too easy on the cheerleader. Why
24:04
Speaker 1: is she out, aren't Harris? I mean, why is the
24:09
Speaker 1: life of an infant, a newborn baby who was born
24:13
Speaker 1: alive according to the medical examiner. Why she walk out
24:17
Speaker 1: on five thousand dollar bond? It is fifty thousand, it's
24:21
Speaker 1: fifty thousand, but there aren't You've been in enough bonding
24:25
Speaker 1: companies to know fifty thousand equals five thousand, check and
24:30
Speaker 1: just home free for the moment. And this is These
24:33
Speaker 1: are people I guess you were known to the community
24:35
Speaker 1: and quote respectable family. Uh you left out that the
24:39
Speaker 1: baby was apparently burned and decomposed between the time they
24:43
Speaker 1: believed that child was born May six or seven and
24:47
Speaker 1: found later in July. I did not leave at out,
24:51
Speaker 1: aren't Harris. I had a funny feeling that you would
24:54
Speaker 1: fill me in. Okay, let's go through the facts. I
24:58
Speaker 1: know I should have known you'd hone in and on
25:00
Speaker 1: the most gruesome part of the case. Go ahead, I
25:02
Speaker 1: will let you explain it. Joining me also is Joe
25:05
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, DestinE investigator and renowned psychologists joining me out
25:10
Speaker 1: of New York Karen Stark. Karen, I know you've got
25:14
Speaker 1: a lot to say about this, but I want you
25:16
Speaker 1: to hear as disturbing as it is, the real facts
25:21
Speaker 1: about the discovery of the infant's body, because I think
25:25
Speaker 1: it may change your opinion. Aren't please explain? So the
25:30
Speaker 1: medical examiner, uh, you know, report the cause of death.
25:33
Speaker 1: It was difficult to decide because the burning and the
25:37
Speaker 1: decomposition of the body between the time that they believed
25:41
Speaker 1: the baby was born and when she was found. But
25:45
Speaker 1: half some ideas of how it happened, uh, you know,
25:47
Speaker 1: burning the body then burying it. Joe Morgan can tell
25:51
Speaker 1: us the problems there. But initially what shocked me investigators
25:55
Speaker 1: were tipped off by some doctor who initials it a
25:58
Speaker 1: stillborn baby. Now that would change things a little bit, uh,
26:04
Speaker 1: from murder to hiding an embarrassment, I suppose, But this
26:08
Speaker 1: this is not the case apparently, So I'm curious, how
26:11
Speaker 1: can you tell the difference between, you know, a stillborn
26:15
Speaker 1: child and one that was murdered if the body has
26:18
Speaker 1: been so decomposed. All right, you said the body was
26:21
Speaker 1: burned and decomposed. Well, the reports that she burned the body,
26:28
Speaker 1: possibly to hide whatever, and then buried it. So if
26:32
Speaker 1: it's buried that long, the remains are going to decompose.
26:35
Speaker 1: From whether it's rain, whether it's uh, moisture, underground, whatever
26:40
Speaker 1: the weather is like. Uh, I don't know how far
26:42
Speaker 1: the decomposition went. U. Joe could probably explain that the
26:46
Speaker 1: FBI has something called the body Farm where they test
26:49
Speaker 1: time and conditions and what happens to bodies after over time.
26:55
Speaker 1: But this is what was reported now. Uh, the prosecutor
26:59
Speaker 1: decided to pursue charge which would have put her possibly
27:04
Speaker 1: uh you know, made her definitely eligible. But now she
27:09
Speaker 1: can spend the rest of life in prison if these
27:12
Speaker 1: charges turn out to be true. Well, this is what
27:14
Speaker 1: I know. After unearthing the baby girls remains, experts have
27:20
Speaker 1: decided the baby had been born alive, then killed, then
27:26
Speaker 1: the baby's body burned, then buried in the backyard by
27:32
Speaker 1: the barbecue pit. Joe Scott Morgan, death investigator. How difficult
27:39
Speaker 1: is it to actually burn a human body? Very difficult.
27:43
Speaker 1: It takes a lot of a lot of cases that
27:45
Speaker 1: I've worked over the years. People simply think that they
27:48
Speaker 1: can take a gallon of gas or lighter fluid, throw
27:50
Speaker 1: it on the body, senative firewalk away. That doesn't happen.
27:53
Speaker 1: It takes an extended period of time to do what
27:56
Speaker 1: we refer to as render down human remains, and a
27:59
Speaker 1: lot of tense heat for a protractive amount of time.
28:03
Speaker 1: The problem here is uh, and the problem for the
28:06
Speaker 1: defense in this case is that when this child's body
28:09
Speaker 1: was examined by the medical examiner, they conducted what is
28:13
Speaker 1: referred to as a float test for the lungs. That means,
28:17
Speaker 1: that means, in very simple terms, that this precious little angel,
28:21
Speaker 1: at some point in time, right after birth, had had
28:25
Speaker 1: taken air into its lungs, the lungs had expanded into
28:30
Speaker 1: those little sacks in the lungs, and the lungs are
28:33
Speaker 1: able to float. If the child had been born still,
28:38
Speaker 1: then those lungs never would have expanded and they would
28:40
Speaker 1: sink to the bottom and the tub in which they're tested.
28:43
Speaker 1: So this makes this doubly horrific in this case. Now
28:47
Speaker 1: back to what artists said, It does compromise the ability
28:50
Speaker 1: to find out what exactly happened. But Nancy, as you
28:54
Speaker 1: well know, it doesn't take much to kill this innocent
28:58
Speaker 1: little child. Anything as simple as is placing their hand
29:01
Speaker 1: over this child's nose and mouth could have brought this
29:04
Speaker 1: child to an end. Now, Art Harris was right that
29:07
Speaker 1: initially the police did not charge her with murder. It
29:11
Speaker 1: was basically the lowest, one of the lowest rungs of homicide.
29:15
Speaker 1: It's my understanding, and Alan Duke check this out for
29:18
Speaker 1: me to make sure we're correct. But I understand that
29:22
Speaker 1: she has pleaded. Brook Skylan Richardson has pled not guilty
29:26
Speaker 1: to charges of aggravated murder, child endangerment, tampering with evidence,
29:33
Speaker 1: and gross abuse of a corpse in connection to the
29:37
Speaker 1: death of the baby girl. I think she is charged
29:40
Speaker 1: with aggravated murder. Now it's a lot different thing and
29:45
Speaker 1: I can't put my finger on it. To Karen Stark
29:47
Speaker 1: psychologists joining me out of New York, I'm not arguing
29:51
Speaker 1: about right now anyway, about whether abortion is right or wrong, Okay,
29:57
Speaker 1: I'm talking about a pre meditate, hated act, Karen giving
30:02
Speaker 1: birth to a baby, a baby girl. You know how
30:05
Speaker 1: many people in this country would give their eye teeth
30:07
Speaker 1: to get a baby girl to raise and too love
30:10
Speaker 1: and have her love them back. But that's not what
30:15
Speaker 1: brook Skyler Richardson did. According to police, she killed the baby,
30:20
Speaker 1: who was born alive with no known defects, then tried
30:25
Speaker 1: to burn the baby's body. Did burn the baby's body?
30:30
Speaker 1: I mean, just that thought Karen start of putting flame
30:34
Speaker 1: to a child, a baby's body. It just is completely
30:39
Speaker 1: revolting to me. And I understand that you would feel
30:42
Speaker 1: that way, Nancy, but I want to explain something to
30:45
Speaker 1: you that in neo nat aside, which is what we're
30:48
Speaker 1: talking about, mothers who killed their children very often, it's
30:52
Speaker 1: something that happens with teenagers. And she's eighteen years old.
30:58
Speaker 1: So even though we're saying she's an adult at eighteen,
31:03
Speaker 1: she still has enough of the adolescent type of magical
31:07
Speaker 1: thinking where she's in denial throughout the pregnancy. So it's
31:13
Speaker 1: not like she's saying, I'm pregnant and everybody is talking
31:17
Speaker 1: about prenatal care. She's wishing it away and she's saying
31:21
Speaker 1: to herself, maybe I'll have a miscarriage or I'm not
31:24
Speaker 1: really pregnant, and she hides it. So she's spending a
31:28
Speaker 1: lot of time in denial, working hard to not admit
31:31
Speaker 1: to herself this is happening to her, and when it
31:34
Speaker 1: finally does happen, she's not in a conscious state the
31:39
Speaker 1: way we would be saying, oh, I'm having a baby,
31:42
Speaker 1: I need to do something about this baby. It's still
31:45
Speaker 1: feelings of shame and embarrassment. This can't be really happening,
31:50
Speaker 1: and this baby is not real to me, And I'm
31:52
Speaker 1: not saying that it's acceptable, but I am describing the
31:55
Speaker 1: psychological state that would make somebody, um go ahead and
32:01
Speaker 1: not see this as a real, living, precious baby that
32:05
Speaker 1: we would treasure. Let me just quote from Lego Batman.
32:12
Speaker 1: I hate everything you just said that you want and
32:17
Speaker 1: I'm not but I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not
32:20
Speaker 1: saying you're wrong. But what I am saying is that
32:27
Speaker 1: between her an honor student, an honor student, high school
32:33
Speaker 1: grad who lived in an upper class money neighborhood, in
32:40
Speaker 1: a beautiful home with a backyard brick barbecue pit, and
32:47
Speaker 1: every privilege you can have in our society, she did
32:56
Speaker 1: this to the baby. She is not in Jane. She
33:01
Speaker 1: just graduated as an honor student for Pete's sake, as
33:04
Speaker 1: a varsity cheerleader heading off to college. She's not insane.
33:10
Speaker 1: Yes she may have been embarrassed, Yes she may have
33:13
Speaker 1: been panicked. Those are not defenses under the law. You're
33:17
Speaker 1: asking me essentially to pick between the honor student gride
33:23
Speaker 1: and the innocent baby who can barely open its eyes
33:28
Speaker 1: and counts on its mother to protect it. Well, authorities
33:32
Speaker 1: say they know who the father is but have not
33:33
Speaker 1: divulged it. But that that's really, in my mind, what
33:37
Speaker 1: you're asking me to do. And I can't pick the
33:40
Speaker 1: honor grad over the baby. I can't do that to
33:44
Speaker 1: an innocent victim, because the mom is not innocent. She
33:47
Speaker 1: may have been, as you say, panicked, embarrassed, wishing it away.
33:52
Speaker 1: Those were your words, and I think they're appropriate. I
33:55
Speaker 1: think everything you said was true, but that does not
33:58
Speaker 1: equal a defense under our law. And that's correct, which
34:03
Speaker 1: is why she's out on bail or a bond. However,
34:07
Speaker 1: it's important to understand that there is a reason why
34:11
Speaker 1: that happens, That something is going on within the eighteen
34:16
Speaker 1: year old that's making her not accept that this is
34:19
Speaker 1: a real condition, that this is a child that needs
34:24
Speaker 1: to be cared for or sent to somebody who might
34:27
Speaker 1: be able to love this baby, versus someone who's ashamed
34:31
Speaker 1: and embarrassed. And it has nothing to do with the
34:34
Speaker 1: riches that she had or everything, if anything that made
34:38
Speaker 1: it worse. That she had everything going for her. I disagree.
34:42
Speaker 1: She was educated, she had loving parents and every privilege
34:48
Speaker 1: that millions of children wish they had. Yes, Nan, she
34:53
Speaker 1: knew there were alternatives. She knew she could have an abortion,
34:56
Speaker 1: she knew she could give the baby away, it a
34:59
Speaker 1: safe haven, she could have given she knew about adopted.
35:02
Speaker 1: She knew all of that, but chose to murder the
35:05
Speaker 1: baby and burn its body and bury it in the dirt.
35:10
Speaker 1: But we have to understand what conscious knowing is. And
35:15
Speaker 1: in cases of neo native side, very often when it's
35:18
Speaker 1: teenage girls or someone who's still a teen, it's not
35:24
Speaker 1: a conscious Oh, I think I won't give it up
35:27
Speaker 1: for adoption. I'm going to murder it. It's much more
35:30
Speaker 1: about denial, that magical thinking that says it's not happening. Well,
35:35
Speaker 1: maybe she can deny that she's sitting in jail because
35:39
Speaker 1: that's where she's going to end up. Art Harris, you
35:41
Speaker 1: said there's a gag order. There's a gag order. What's
35:45
Speaker 1: happening next? I can tell you that the prosecutor um
35:48
Speaker 1: supports the guests in a way that says she was
35:50
Speaker 1: obsessed with quote appearances and how things appeared to the
35:54
Speaker 1: outside world, and that her mother would not have wanted
35:58
Speaker 1: the area of the neighbor's friends to know she was
36:01
Speaker 1: pregnant and had a baby. Who knows what kind of
36:04
Speaker 1: pressure was going on inside or what kind of a
36:07
Speaker 1: strange teenage hormonal thinking, uh was was happening combined with
36:13
Speaker 1: you know, this sort of overlay. I don't know. I'm
36:16
Speaker 1: I'm not judging, but it's that, well, what kind of
36:19
Speaker 1: what kind of tapsy turvy world? Am I not judging? Uh? Hey, hey, hey,
36:25
Speaker 1: hey hey, You're not on the front row at the
36:27
Speaker 1: United Methist Church and I'm not the church lady. We're
36:30
Speaker 1: not talking about judging or not judging. I'm gonna leave
36:32
Speaker 1: that up to Heaven, all right, They can deal with
36:35
Speaker 1: judging her. What I'm talking about is a verdict that
36:38
Speaker 1: speaks the truth and what happened? Am I the only
36:40
Speaker 1: one on this program that gives a flying fig about
36:44
Speaker 1: the baby? Have I lost my mind? Joe Scott, please
36:47
Speaker 1: throw me a bone for Pete's sake? What kind of person?
36:51
Speaker 1: What kind of person would sit there hold a baby,
36:56
Speaker 1: cradle them in their arms, and let's just say that
36:58
Speaker 1: it was suffocation and place their hand over the nose
37:02
Speaker 1: and the mouth of this baby and lay there as
37:06
Speaker 1: the baby lay there in their arms, and watch it
37:08
Speaker 1: squirm and wriggle and fight for air and be denied
37:13
Speaker 1: that ability to draw breath. Uh you know, uh for me,
37:19
Speaker 1: that's a drop the mic moment um. I think that
37:22
Speaker 1: that speaks volumes. The problem with this is is that
37:25
Speaker 1: they're gonna take the horrific nature of this and they're
37:28
Speaker 1: gonna flip it around in court and they're gonna say, oh, well,
37:32
Speaker 1: that's even further evidence that she was out of her mind.
37:36
Speaker 1: And you know, I bet you dollars to donuts there
37:39
Speaker 1: won't be accountability in this case. I'm gonna let I'm
37:42
Speaker 1: gonna pause for a moment. I let Art Harris and
37:45
Speaker 1: Karen Stark. Let that soak in, and now all crime
37:50
Speaker 1: stories I was sitting. Woman accused of trying to kill
37:52
Speaker 1: her newborn son has reached a plea deal with prosecutors.
37:55
Speaker 1: Ashley Howtson Raider gave birth in a University of Iowa
37:58
Speaker 1: hospital bathroom laugh May. She put the newborn in a
38:01
Speaker 1: pillow case and left it in a trash can, where
38:03
Speaker 1: it was found alive by hospital staff. Howson Rader was
38:06
Speaker 1: originally charged with attempted murder. The charge was dropped during
38:09
Speaker 1: a plea hearing. Instead, she pled guilty to child endangerment
38:12
Speaker 1: and abandonment of a dependent person. She faces up to
38:14
Speaker 1: twelve years in prison. A newborn baby flushed down the toilet?
38:20
Speaker 1: What a newborn baby flushed down the toilet? I never
38:25
Speaker 1: thought I would be putting those words together in one sentence.
38:29
Speaker 1: Joining me right now from dailymail dot Com is Sean Waltz.
38:33
Speaker 1: What can you tell me about Ashley Howson rat Ashley
38:38
Speaker 1: Holtson Rader, twenty four years of age, gave birth on
38:41
Speaker 1: May eight inside the restroom of the University of Iowa
38:45
Speaker 1: Hospitals and Clinics. She believed her baby had died during birth.
38:49
Speaker 1: She attempts to flush the baby down the toilet. When
38:52
Speaker 1: that's unsuccessful, she then wraps the infant in the pillow
38:55
Speaker 1: case and puts it in a trash can. She leaves
38:58
Speaker 1: and it's found later by little stuff and the baby
39:01
Speaker 1: is still alive. Dis Girl, Ashley Howson Raider and I've
39:05
Speaker 1: got conflict in many ports, but I think she's twenty
39:07
Speaker 1: two years old, flushes her baby down the toilet, then
39:11
Speaker 1: claims she had no idea that she was pregnant. She
39:15
Speaker 1: says the baby was dead because it didn't cry. She
39:18
Speaker 1: then puts the baby in a pillow case and leaves
39:21
Speaker 1: it in the trash can, cleans the bathroom, and leaves Okay,
39:27
Speaker 1: did you know this? Shawn Walsh from dailymail dot com.
39:31
Speaker 1: We found state court records from May two thousand fifteen
39:35
Speaker 1: with a an order establishing fraternity and support for another
39:40
Speaker 1: child she gave birth to. So it's really hard for
39:44
Speaker 1: me to believe that you give birth to one baby,
39:47
Speaker 1: and let me tell you that's an original grande. Let
39:49
Speaker 1: me tell both of you that I would remember it.
39:53
Speaker 1: But then when she has the next baby and flushes
39:57
Speaker 1: it down the como yet says she has no idea
40:00
Speaker 1: that she was pregnant. What about that? Sean? Yeah, look, Nancy,
40:04
Speaker 1: it's very hard to believe. And um, it's very very sad.
40:08
Speaker 1: I mean, look, she didn't know. Okay, I'll agree that
40:16
Speaker 1: it is sad in a way. All I could do
40:20
Speaker 1: is say that's a felony. And guess what, Bethany Marshall,
40:24
Speaker 1: she's not even in jail. She has been released from jail.
40:28
Speaker 1: She's out walking free. She tried to flush a baby.
40:33
Speaker 1: She did flush a baby down the toilet. It came
40:36
Speaker 1: back up. And that that's more than just sad. I'm
40:40
Speaker 1: thinking about the baby. Yes, that is attempted. That was
40:45
Speaker 1: done to an adult then be attempted murder. What she
40:50
Speaker 1: was in a medical center. I'm not sure why she
40:52
Speaker 1: was at the hospital, but sort of my thought about
40:54
Speaker 1: this was, was she going to undergo some medical evaluation
41:00
Speaker 1: or she had to it would be documented that she
41:02
Speaker 1: was pregnant. Was she about to give birth? Was she
41:05
Speaker 1: evading the whole labor process? Was she in labor, she
41:08
Speaker 1: gave birth, she did not want to be a parent,
41:11
Speaker 1: so then she she ditched the baby in the toilet.
41:14
Speaker 1: I mean, it's sort of all very strange that she
41:16
Speaker 1: was able to do this in a hospital setting. And
41:19
Speaker 1: you know, the research shows that women who killed their
41:22
Speaker 1: babies often do not bond with the babies while they're pregnant.
41:25
Speaker 1: In fact, some will deny that they're pregnant altogether. But
41:29
Speaker 1: the fact that she was actually in a medical setting
41:31
Speaker 1: implies that she knew she was pregnant and there was
41:34
Speaker 1: some cognizance of the life of the baby, which flies
41:37
Speaker 1: in the face of what she's saying, which is that
41:39
Speaker 1: she thought that the baby was dead. The reality is
41:42
Speaker 1: that she is walking free after flushing a newborn down
41:50
Speaker 1: a toilet, and when that didn't work. When the baby
41:53
Speaker 1: managed to come back up after the flush, she then
41:59
Speaker 1: threw it in the trash. Right now, because of medical protections,
42:05
Speaker 1: we don't know the condition of the baby. Right now,
42:09
Speaker 1: we can't find out how the baby is doing. But
42:12
Speaker 1: I do know that court records show, as I mentioned
42:15
Speaker 1: in order from May two thousand fifteen, where she housen
42:19
Speaker 1: Rader petitioned the court to prove paternity, which means there's
42:23
Speaker 1: some guy out there claiming that he's not the father
42:25
Speaker 1: of another child and demanding child support for a baby
42:29
Speaker 1: girl she previously gave birth to. According to w h
42:33
Speaker 1: O t V, that daughter born around two thou suffers
42:40
Speaker 1: from health issues. We know that. So is this all
42:44
Speaker 1: an attempt to get child support or or state support?
42:48
Speaker 1: Sean Walsh Nancy, Anything's possible. But I made with this
42:52
Speaker 1: this girl, And what is extraordinary about this is a
42:54
Speaker 1: simple Google search. Once again, it's all about Google. Would
42:58
Speaker 1: have revealed that in Iowa, where she lives, she could
43:01
Speaker 1: have left her baby at the hospital up to fourteen
43:03
Speaker 1: days old without fear of prosecution for abandonment under the
43:07
Speaker 1: Iowa State Department of Human Services. Who allow you to
43:10
Speaker 1: do that if you do not want the child, so
43:13
Speaker 1: you have options, and she chose to take the route
43:16
Speaker 1: of trying to get rid of her child by killing
43:19
Speaker 1: it rather than just handing it over. And she could
43:21
Speaker 1: have faced no questions and no charges by giving that
43:25
Speaker 1: child up, And it's alleged she chose the other You know,
43:30
Speaker 1: another issue. Dr Bethany Marshall, renowned psychologists joining me out
43:36
Speaker 1: of l A and Sean Waltz joining me from daily
43:39
Speaker 1: mail dot com. Think about it. There is this other baby,
43:43
Speaker 1: and if you look on her Facebook, if this is
43:45
Speaker 1: the right baby in the right person, which it appears
43:47
Speaker 1: to be, the baby has the living baby. The first
43:51
Speaker 1: baby has a track, a track kyartomy and a breathing.
43:54
Speaker 1: To you, what do you think happened to it? I mean,
43:58
Speaker 1: I don't know. Why would that be child abuse? Yeah?
44:03
Speaker 1: It does it make I'm very concerned. And when you
44:06
Speaker 1: look at this girl, she's very cute. Seems to me
44:12
Speaker 1: seems normal. I don't know if that's true. What were
44:14
Speaker 1: you telling me about the Safe Haven Act in Iowa? Sean,
44:18
Speaker 1: watch what happens in Iowa. If you have a child
44:21
Speaker 1: and you don't tell you can care for that child.
44:23
Speaker 1: You have up to fourteen days after the child's birth,
44:26
Speaker 1: to hand the child over to authorities, and you will
44:28
Speaker 1: not face charges of abandonment. So that was her option.
44:31
Speaker 1: She could have done that. She chose, though, allegedly, to
44:34
Speaker 1: go into the bathroom give birth, try and flush the
44:37
Speaker 1: baby down the toilet, and then that didn't work, so
44:40
Speaker 1: she wrapped it into pillow case and stuffed it in
44:42
Speaker 1: the trash. I mean she had an option, and allegedly
44:45
Speaker 1: she chose not to take that option up. This all
44:48
Speaker 1: went down on a Sunday evening around PM in a
44:52
Speaker 1: restroom at the John Colton Pavilion at a hospital complex.
44:58
Speaker 1: This claims that two year old Ashley hots And Raider
45:01
Speaker 1: of Davenport, Iowa, entered the bathroom and gave birth to
45:05
Speaker 1: the baby. She claims she didn't know she was pregnant
45:08
Speaker 1: the whole time, even though she's had children before, and
45:11
Speaker 1: entered the bathroom, then thought the baby was dead because
45:15
Speaker 1: it didn't cry. As Shaun Walts tells you, she flushes
45:18
Speaker 1: the baby down the toilet. When that didn't work and
45:20
Speaker 1: the baby emerged, she put the baby in a pillow case,
45:24
Speaker 1: which she threw in a trash can, then leaves the bathroom.
45:28
Speaker 1: Employees later find the baby miraculously still alive. We cannot
45:34
Speaker 1: find out the condition of the baby because that is
45:37
Speaker 1: protected information, so we don't know, but we know this
45:41
Speaker 1: isn't the first time there have been issues surrounding the
45:45
Speaker 1: help of one of her children. Sean, Why is she
45:47
Speaker 1: only charged with one count of child endangerment? That's just
45:51
Speaker 1: that's a misdemeanor. It doesn't make sense. Originally she was
45:55
Speaker 1: charged with attempted murder and the childes were downraded, so
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Speaker 1: it makes no sense that it's one of those cases.
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Speaker 1: We're going to be watching very very closely because there
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Speaker 1: needs to be a deterrent here so people don't do that,
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Speaker 1: especially Nancy, since as we've discussed, there are options. If
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Speaker 1: you're in this situation where you do not want to
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Speaker 1: raise your child, you have fourteen days to take that
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Speaker 1: child to authorities, no questions will be asked, and you
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Speaker 1: can hand that child over anyone prostituted for it. We're
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Speaker 1: on it, Sean, watch dailymail dot com dot door. Bethan
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Speaker 1: Marshall joining me from l A Nancy Grace Crime Stories
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Speaker 1: signing nice Goodbye for