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Debra Clary: Bold Curiosity as Your Competitive Advantage · The Bold Lounge

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: My name is Leigh Burgess and I will be your host.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: If you're anything like me, you love hearing inspiring stories of people who have gone on bold journeys and made a positive impact in the world.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: This podcast is all about those kinds of stories.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Every week, we'll hear from someone who has taken a leap or embarked on an extraordinary journey.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: In addition to hearing their stories, we'll also learn about their bold growth mindset that they use to make things happen.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Whether they face challenges or doubts along the way, they persisted and ultimately achieved their goals.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: These impactful stories will leave you feeling motivated and inspired to pursue your own bold journey.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be freed.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Tune in and get ready to be inspired.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Today I have Dr Deborah Clary.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: She is a purpose-driven leader with a compelling message to share.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Her enthusiasm lies in inspiring leaders and organizations in achieving business success through the enhancement of strategic alignment, team dynamics and fostering a culture of curiosity, strategy, marketing and people development.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: At prominent companies such as Frito-Lay, coca-cola, jack Daniels and Humana, debra brings incredible business insights.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Her dedication is evident in her commitment to working with leaders who inspire to elevate their impact and contribution to their respective organizations.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: With a doctorate in leader and organizational development, debra continues to inspire and empower individuals and organizations on their journey to success.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: Thank you, it's a pleasure to be here.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: So I'm excited to jump in and talk about the connections between curiosity, the moves we make, and being bold.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: But we're going to start off just with your definition of bold.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: What does it look like in your world?
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: For me, when I think about when I've been bold or when I need to be bold, it is about speaking and taking action even when there is fear.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: So it's not about being fearless, but it's about moving forward even when you're fearful.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, excellent.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: It's very aligned with my definition, which is, you know, feeling the fear, moving forward anyway and knowing that you're going to learn.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: You're going to learn something along the way.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: So, when you think about feeling the fear and doing it anyway, what's a moment because there's so many in our lives what's a moment in your life that you recall being bold?
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so it started early in my career.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: So fresh out of business school, you know tons of hope and aspirations.
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: I went for my first job interview Frito-Lay and I thought I was going to be a manager at Frito-Lay.
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: And what happened is they offered me the job, but it was actually to be a route driver in the city of Detroit and I had to take a pause and say six years in school and now I'm going to be a teenster.
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: But I decided to be bold and take that action and so I drove a route truck for almost a year in the city of Detroit at Frito-Lay.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: I ended up spending 10 years there and gaining incredible experiences, and that was one moment when I had to be bold.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, were you curious about what.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: When I had to be bold, yeah, were you curious about what it was like to be a driver?
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: Or I drove for FedEx not the same as Frito-Lay, but for FedEx and I unloaded for UPS during college.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: So in the sense of getting curious but also needing a paycheck, honestly, in college those were great places to learn and actually UPS actually had a strike while I was working there, so I was a manager during that and I was in my early 20s and so it was just very, very again.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: I learned so much during that time.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: So, like, were you curious about Frito-Lay?
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: Did you just want to get in the door?
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: Like, what was the idea of being a route driver?
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: What did you feel like that was going to lead to?
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: Well, in the beginning I wanted to be a manager here.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: I was right out of business school and when the opportunity was presented, it was presented that we start everybody on a route truck.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: So we don't care about your degrees, we don't care about your experiences At Frito-Lay, everybody starts on the route.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: And I looked at that and said, okay, there is a trajectory here that if I work on the route, I do a good job.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: That's the only way you got promoted off of a route truck.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: It wasn't you do this for six months a year, it was can you perform as a route driver?
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: And that truck became my classroom.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: It's where I learned how to manage my time, how to manage a P&L, how to manage relationships.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: And when I began to talk to my friends who were working for P&G and Colgate, they were driving a company car, they had a briefcase, they weren't learning what I was learning.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: And that's when I realized I was on to something.
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: But in the beginning it was scary to think about physically, could I do it?
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: And then the answer was yes, I can.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: Yes, heck yes.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: So, in the sense of the pieces and parts, what do you think you were able to learn that anyone who, let's just say someone, skipped that part?
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: What did you learn that they will never learn because you had that opportunity?
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: Well, I learned that I was determined and tenacious in the sense of I was willing to do this hard work that would hopefully lead to a management role, and once I figured out I could physically do it, because you think you know, oh, how heavy can potato chips be?
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: You get 20 boxes.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: They're very heavy, and I just learned how to you know, being a small woman and being able to navigate that, and there were other women that were doing it.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: So it was just one about sheer determination that, whether it's sleet, hail, winter, I can make it happen.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: So, approaching something with an open mind, it sounds like, right so, like you just got your MBA and now you're driving a truck, like there is a sense of like, what am I doing?
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: Right, but you have intentionality, at least to learn, to understand and to, in a way, follow the guidances.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: Right so, but you were determined to.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: For what was next?
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: How did you use determination and curiosity to go to the next level, to go to the whether it's a next role within the same company or even a different company?
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: What were you doing?
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: Like?
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: What was the strategy around that?
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: Or was it more so, just experience, like, let's just experience this.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, it was definitely about just gaining the experience because I was young you know my early twenties.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: Similar to you, I didn't know what I didn't know.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: It was just I knew I had this dream and this vision of having a successful career and I just said okay, this is the first step.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: You drive a route truck and then you do a good job, and then you get promoted into management and now that you have you know, the knowledge and the respect, now it goes right.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: Now the next step is how do you lead people?
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, not only just people, but these are also teamsters.
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: There are rules and boundaries and regulations.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: If you just treat them like people.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think for me, like I know, I built that up in my head in a way, but to me they're human beings and they're just rules.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: You know and follow the rules and you're good, at least in my experience.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: So I think there's a common variable here and it is openness and it's open to you know whatever you need to experience or what you want to experience.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: And somehow I think as we get older I don't know if people get less open to it, I don't know what your opinion, but I think we get more, maybe set in our ways of what's supposed to be next, and then we're not as open to driving the route truck.
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: We're like, no, I deserve an X, y or Z or I should be at this level.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: What do you think happens, you know, in your research and your work around?
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: Curiosity, because I think that's connected to openness.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, you could definitely correct me, but in my mind it's like being open to possibility and being open to, if it works, this and if it doesn't work, then I will be able to do why.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about the science of that or the work that you've done in that area.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so we did significant primary research on curiosity and there are four factors that make up curiosity, and one of them is openness to new ideas.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: New ideas, and what we found is that someone that is older and has more tenure and more experience are actually more open to ideas than the younger individuals, and this is my hypothesis.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: The reason is is because you have this confidence, I can be open, because I have confidence that I'm going to figure out does this fit or not fit?
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: So confidence is required for curiosity or no?
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: Not necessarily, but it helps.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: Well, it's this.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: You know, curiosity and wonder are similar in the sense of if you have the ability to ask questions, whether that be of yourself and others, you know that's, that's curiosity.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: And so at the root of every question is curiosity.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: I mean, there there might be a piece of there with confidence.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: Do you have confidence to ask a question?
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: And certainly that depends on the culture you're in.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: It also depends on who are you having this conversation with.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: But in general, I think that our confidence grows as we age because our experience grows and our wisdom grows.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, one of the things I've noticed and maybe you can tell me a little bit more about this from the curiosity lens is that taking a bold step you know taking, whether it's I'm you know, I was 48 when I was just burned out and needed to make a change, and I wasn't so much curious, but I knew I needed to make a move.
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: But what I got curious about was what was possible, right, what I could do, what I could be, where I could work, how I could work.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: All these things were just possible now because I'd opened my mind to it, versus what I thought was the way I was supposed to be working or where I was supposed to be working.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: But that first step is really, really hard.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: You know, in my second book I talk about the neuroscience of fear and how it can, you know, really keep us from taking that bold step.
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: But when it comes to curiosity, it's not fearlessness, but fear isn't coming in right.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: So when you're working in your own curiosity curve that you talk about in your book, but I mean, if you're in your own path, what are some of the things that are helping you?
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: Just for lack of whatever, feel safe to be curious, feel it's okay to try something, because sometimes it's that first step that's the hardest.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: And what I have found in my coaching practice when people feel so overwhelmed with something that they have to go do, whether they want to start a new career, they want to start a new project is, I'll say to them is that if it feels overwhelming, it just means the first step isn't small enough.
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: It's when you can begin to break it down and say what do I need to do first?
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: And if that seems overwhelming, then break it down even further.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: You know, it's like what Jim Clear talks about in Atomic Habits one step at a time, make sure it's a step that you feel comfortable with.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I always say, like you're in control, you're in control of the timing, you're in control of the step.
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: You take the size of the step and all of those things, and I advise no one to do what I did, which was quit their job without a plan, but I had to do it.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: So what I hope is that people learn from it right.
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: Did you have a moment in your life where you're like more people need to understand why being curious is so important?
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: And just a little bit about my background.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: I spent four decades in corporate America, from Frito-Lay, coca-cola, jack Daniels, and then my last 15 years were at Humana, where I ran the Leadership Institute, and I saw firsthand how difficult it is to navigate complex systems.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: There are ways to do things and we get into that rut, and there are policies and there are practices and all of those things are really good.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: But if we're living in a culture that doesn't allow us to challenge that respectfully, that's why I think change doesn't occur.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: And you think about what's happening in our workforce today.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: Well, we started in 2020 with the great resignation, which really turned out to be the great awakening, where employees were waking up and saying I want to be valued, where employees were waking up and saying I want to be valued.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: And you look at what's happening today is 50% of our workforce are quiet quitters, meaning they're not quitting and not physically coming to work.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: They're still showing up for work, but they're not being as productive.
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: And when we did a study with a small focus group with millennials, we asked them what is your source of disengagement?
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: And they said my leader doesn't know me and doesn't care to know me.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: That's curiosity.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's empathy too, and EQ, and I do think curiosity has to be within the formula of both of those, because I think it's noticing right, because I think curiosity is like what's over there, what's in that, how did you do that?
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: Where did you come from?
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: You know like in a very positive way of just I want to know more.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: And how do you define it?
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: What's the formal Dr Clary definition of curiosity?
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: The curiosity for me is about being genuinely interested in self and others and their situations.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: Okay, and when you're approaching someone, you need information or you want to get to know them more.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: It begins with your intentions and your mindset, and we probably all work for leaders that are asking questions, but they're almost in a way of rapid fire and it's just disingenuous in terms of they already have the answer.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: They're just trying to trick you if you know the answer, and that's not what I'm talking about.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: It's this mindset of I want to suspend all judgment and bias in this situation and understand what they know that I don't know.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, are there some certain phrases you can use when you're getting curious about something like tell me more about, or can you take this to the next level of understanding, or something like that.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: Are there some go to phrases that you use?
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: I do so when I ask a question and then I get a response, I'll say and what else?
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: What else?
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: So that they know that I'm really interested in going deeper and understanding their thought patterns or their solutions.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: And it also makes them, I believe, feel safe, Like, oh, she is truly interested going far on this.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so curiosity is almost a communication skill set, as you define it, like it's a way to communicate, it's a way to learn more, it's the door, through greater understanding or deeper understanding of something can happen.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: Yes, okay, why isn't it a leadership competency, though I think maybe I'd have to go back to see if it's on my strengths finder somewhere.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: You know, being as old as I am, like I've taken every single leadership survey, the disc and all of those things, like I'm sure there's questions that ask it, but it isn't a particular competency, even in my own reviews and those types of things.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: So can we make that happen?
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: Absolutely so.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: In StrengthsFinders, the closest to curiosity would be are you a learner?
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: Okay, right, so people that are learners.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: So when I am interviewing someone for a role, I'll ask questions about you know what's the latest thing that you've learned?
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: Or what are you reading you know?
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: Or when you have a problem you have to solve, how do you go about solving it?
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: So you can begin to understand someone's level of curiosity.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: And, as a matter of fact, we have designed an instrument where we measure an individual's level of curiosity.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: So we actually can measure an individual, a team and an organization.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: And when we do that, we begin to see the full landscape of an organization.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: And we know from our research that if a leader has a high level of curiosity, then you see engagement rise, job satisfaction rise, job tenure rises.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: So direct correlation between a leader's level of curiosity.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: Now, why are leaders not curious?
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, it just seems like this should just be so simple.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: Well, the reason this is is that we know when we're children we ask 289 questions a day.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: As an adult, we might ask five questions a day.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: So somewhere along the line we've become taught to be incurious.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: So I always start with leaders.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: It's not your fault because as children, we are now sitting in our seats raising our hands, and it just all along the way.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: Children are to be seen and not heard.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: And then, guess what?
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: Then we get into the corporate world and we've got an expertise.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: We've gone to college, we've gone to medical school, we've gone to law school and now we're experts and we're paid for that expertise.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: We get rewarded for that expertise, and so combine that with constraints on time, and so when somebody comes to us, it's just easier to tell them what to do.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: When we do that, we're not developing that individual.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what's interesting is I'm sitting here like I worked at Duke and at Dartmouth both, I think, cultures of curiosity, but with a different spin, right.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: So just every organization has its own.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: You know, I think feel around how they work and those type of things, and I think curiosity was at both institutions, but I think how they deployed it maybe was different.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: So when you think about an organization that's done it well, is there one that comes to mind where it's like that's a culture of curiosity and you can see it inside and out?
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: I would say you look at the output.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: So what organizations are continuously coming up with new products that are innovative?
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: You know finding new ways to do that, and certainly in the tech space.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: You'll see that I've never worked in a tech space, but my sense is that in order to be highly innovative, you have to be curious.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: Obviously, if you want to innovate, you have to be curious, and you're probably going to have to be open to failure as well, and I think there's some analogous things to being bold.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: You know, so you have to be willing to learn, to know it's not guaranteed to take the step, but the possibilities if you don't take that step are not there.
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: So, when you think about curiosity and boldness, how do they work in tandem?
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: How do they work together?
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: So I haven't thought of it quite like that, so let me just I'll just think and speak at the same time.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: I believe that you can be highly curious but not bold, right, Because you can continuously take in information but not take action.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: And being bold?
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: You could probably be bold without curiosity, in the sense that you might get one idea and you just start running with it.
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: So curious people might do significant amount of research, they might talk to other people, so you could be bold without connecting with other people or doing your research on that.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: So in an ideal world they would be connected, but I'm not sure that they have to be.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you definitely can do one without the other, but what I feel and I don't know if you feel like, if you're curious and bold, I think one you could potentially move faster, like these are some of the things that you just talked about within an organization, I think you're more agile, because failure is not the end.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: You have that growth mindset really as the engine of what you're doing and you continue like, okay, that didn't work or that did work.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: Why did that work?
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: Because sometimes we do things that were like that wasn't what I thought, that wasn't even what I was focused on, right, but that's where everybody went.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: So I think there is power potentially, I think when you combine them, but you certainly don't need one to do the other, but I think there's power when you combine them.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: It would be a phenomenal combination yeah.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: So when you think about, you know the book that you wrote.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: Why did you want to write a book about this?
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: Obviously it's needed and you know any leader should pick up this book because I think it really does get to the heart of what we're talking about here.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: But why that book and why?
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: now I'll give you the backstory on this, and it was around 2017, 2018.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: I'm sitting next to my CEO of a hundred billion dollar company and there was somebody presenting at the front of the room and he turned to me and said do you think curiosity can be learned or is it innate?
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: I don't know, but I'm interested.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: I'm curious.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: Right, I'm really curious.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: So I went and did my research and I dug into it and I came back and I said, oh guess what, bruce, curiosity can be learned.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: And he said, oh, that's interesting.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: And then it just kind of stopped there.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: I'm like all right.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: So I did this research.
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: It was really interesting and he himself is highly curious.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: And then that afternoon he called and said we're having this 3,000 person meeting in Houston.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: Would you be willing to be the keynote on Curiosity?
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: Like yeah, I'll go do that.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: What I realized was I mean, I took the data and I created a story and how it connected to the consumer.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: But what I realized was there wasn't enough data for me on curiosity, specifically what curiosity could do in organizations.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: I had a hypothesis, I had intuition around it, but there wasn't enough data that actually could show what would a culture of high curiosity do for an organization.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: So I set out and did this research.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: So we did primary research with the single research question is what is the relatedness between leadership, performance and curiosity?
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: Just because I wanted to have the answer, like I was just wildly curious about it.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: And we found out that there is a direct correlation and we also found out that curiosity can be learned and when you do that, performance improves in organizations.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: And I said okay, four decades in corporations.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: I want to go now share the gospel of something simple that leaders can do to change their organization and fuel growth.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, change is hard for some organizations, especially for companies that have been around a while.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: What do you think in the sense of, like the micro moments of curiosity that can occur that we can encourage?
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: Let's just say, you know someone's in an organization and they're not at a place to say, hey, we're, you know we're gonna make a shift or we're gonna, you know, value it more.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: Are there micro moments that can be made, whether it's like in a meeting and a particular decision, or maybe even in communication?
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, you know the you know a process would be is to to share what the change is and why that change is needed for the betterment of the organization and then share how it impacts them.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: But then also, it's about now.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: You have to listen.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: What questions do you all have about this change?
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: What are your concerns?
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: Why might this not work?
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: If it does work, what does it mean for our department?
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: And it's getting ownership and understanding at that individual level.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fascinating because I think one of the key things about being curious is that you have to be a good listener.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: You have to pay attention almost to the details, intentionally, right In the sense of really using your ears, whether it's talking to someone you know, listening to them, understanding it.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: What have you learned, or what do you know about listening?
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: With regard to curiosity Because it's not always a skill, I'll be honest, that I have that I that I use.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: Well, sometimes I'm just kind of like go, go, go and I'm not even hearing.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: What did you say?
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: You know, like one of those moments.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: But, in general, like using our listening skills as part of really amping up our curiosity and our ability to gain a lot from it or gain as much as possible.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: So if you were the professional listener, this is how it might look, like someone that has mastered it.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: It's one of asking a question and it's a short question less than five words and then when they are speaking, obviously you are present, your mind is clear, you've suspended all judgment, but you're not just hearing the words, you're watching their body language and you're watching their breath.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: Okay, so if there's a quick breath, then they're nervous when they're talking to you.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: So it's an opportunity to slow the conversation down and also build their confidence that you're listening and how they know you're listening as you repeat what you just heard and then say and what else.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: So listening is not just with your ears.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: You're watching everything and it's also about, when you're listening, what's your own body language and what is your own breath, like you know, in terms of being present and slowing yourself down so that you can be totally in the moment.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that just made me take a deep breath.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you just saw it.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: It's like, okay, sat back in my chair, all the things, so yeah.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: So I think, for me, what I love about the word curious and the curiosity is that it isn't just one thing and it brings in multiple senses.
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: It brings in, I think, again, a lot of possibility, and I think, as we get older that we talked about, we either think we can't be curious, or we've been told not to be as curious, or we've lost the understanding of how to be as adults.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: So, from the book, what are things that we can do?
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: Well, first of all, tell us what the curiosity curve is and what it's about, and then how we reignite our curiosity, or what are some steps that we can do when you?
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: Well, first of all, tell us what the curiosity curve is and what it's about, and then how we reignite our curiosity, or what are some steps that we can.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: We can do.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: So the background of the book is my four decades in fortune 50 companies and in the lessons I've learned, in a positive way and you, things that that could have been different or things I would do differently, but also then it then it's on top of this, not only my primary research, but other research as it relates to what does curiosity mean and what are the benefits of being curious, even for yourself and others.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: So the curiosity curve it looks at the four factors of curiosity which it makes up exploration, exploration so am I exploring in the world?
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: The other is openness to new ideas.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: The other one is focused engagement, which is like, once you have your idea, how do you put that into action?
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: We outline the framework of the curiosity curve and it's also about then.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: We teach you how, what is the framework and then what are ideas that you can implement to be a more curious person, but also a more curious leader, and you create a culture of curiosity.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: So what type of culture has to exist for curiosity to be possible?
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: So I think of some environments I've worked in over the last, you know, 30 years.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: I don't think they really wanted you to be curious.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: I think they wanted you to follow orders and do the thing.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: And you know, this is this and this is that.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: There's no, there's no discussion, right?
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: So how is it possible in those types of organizations?
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: How do you use it?
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: Or how do you not lose it in a place that maybe doesn't welcome it as much?
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: Culture is synonymous with leadership, so so goes the executive team, so goes the culture.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: So for me, starting with the leadership team, the CEO and their direct reports, is one about assessing how curious are they If they're not curious, that's where our work begins in terms of helping them understand what is the power of curiosity.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: And then how do you apply it?
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: How do you create an environment where people feel safe to challenge the status quo?
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: As a leader, are you inviting questions about things that are happening?
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: And also, as a leader, are you saying I don't know?
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: You know being vulnerable to say I don't have all the answers.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: Let's, together, try to figure this out.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: How do we get underneath this problem?
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: How do we get under the changes that's happening legislatively?
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: And it's this opportunity to say we're in it together and, as a leader, I don't have all the answers.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm not a know-it-all, I want to learn it all, so you know.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: To your question is how do you begin?
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: This process is one is looking at the executive team and then, if the executive team is highly curious, it'll begin to move throughout the organization.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: So if it can be taught, where do you start teaching someone to be curious?
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: As an adult, it's easier.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: As a child we're literally curious about everything.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, watch a child for a day and you'll, you'll.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: So that is why we developed the curiosity assessment.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: Okay, you can understand what is my current state.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: And then you begin to see, in these four factors, this is where I do really well and here's where I need to improve.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: And the other powerful thing about this is that if you do an individual and you do a team and you say, oh my gosh, my curiosity score is 90, but my team is at a 40.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: So you're wondering why do I come to work every day and feel exhausted that nobody's listening to me?
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: Well, because there's this imbalance.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: Or, and vice versa, if your team is at 90 and you're at 40, you're like, oh my gosh, we can't get any work done because they keep asking questions.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they're worn out from it all.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, and it's, it's this.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: You begin with a language of what do we mean by curiosity?
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: And when you begin to have this language around it, and when someone is coming to you and they're wanting to explore ideas, but you're already in focused engagement, like you want to get down to work, you have this opportunity to say I know you want to get right into doing the work.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: But can we take 10 minutes and just explore the options here?
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: So you begin to work with one another, you begin to build a relationship around how people think and how they do their best work.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Do you think you know, in the sense of transformation, because you talk about curiosity being connected to transformation within individuals and organizations honestly, how do you unlearn, maybe some habits that you've had that don't allow you or don't enable you to be as curious?
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: Is there anything you've had to unlearn in your journey?
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: Or you see, are you seeing in others?
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: Are you seeing in others.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: I think the biggest one for me and then others that I see in leaders is that you are the expert and you have time constraints.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: So when someone shows up and they say here's the problem, they put it on the table and your inclination is let's just solve it and then they can be on their way.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: So it's that one of because I have the knowledge and because at least I think I have the knowledge and the solutions and I don't have any time, I'm just going to do that.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: And it's one of saying, when someone comes in and says I have a problem, is saying to yourself do I have time now to work on this with this individual or do we need to reschedule where I can be totally focused on coaching the individual around the problem?
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: So it's one is understanding where are you currently in your mindset and being intentional about my role as a leader is to help others solve problems.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: My job is not to solve the problem.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: As a leader, you have no problems.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: You have no problems.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: Your employees have a problem and you help them solve it.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: I never worked like that.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: I mean, I definitely wasn't able to solve all the problems or those types of things.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: But I think when we're thinking about being curious, I think understanding that we can get distracted or we can get, I think, maybe rushed, in the sense of just how the days go and we're trying to solve something fast and we don't have the time to be curious.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: It sounds like and again, I'm just trying to understand when you're saying to another leader this can be taught and they may already have the key pieces to it, but they're like there's no time really to have these level of conversations.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: What do you say to organizations and I'm sure you've heard it it's like we don't have time for that, we can't do that, we have to get things done, or things are backed up, or we, you know, we have to turn things around.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: What do you, what would you say to someone that says I don't have time to be curious?
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: It's this old adage of going slow to go fast, and sometimes it's.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: You know, I would liken it to when you're first going to the gym and you say I don't have time or this was really difficult, but if you do it for a couple of months you're like, oh my gosh, I feel amazing.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: Same thing with this is that it's being disciplined enough to say, if we go slow and I build this individual's confidence and let them solve the problem on their own next month, they're not coming back because they figured out you've built their confidence and that you've said to them I trust you to go solve this.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: So it's going slow.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: Might be a little painful in the beginning to break the habit, but you're playing the long game here, not the short game.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: So, when you think about playing the long game when it comes to curiosity and what its impact is within organizations, do you see a certain gender be more curious, a certain generation define it differently or use it differently?
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: What's the generational piece?
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: Let's start there, and then do you see it have a gender pull towards?
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: More women are curious or more men are curious?
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: It really doesn't matter.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: We see no difference in gender.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: Both men and women are equal in that area.
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: The reason is is we, for the most part, we've all gone through formal education that has taught us to be in curious right, and so it's clawing our way back to say curiosity is a powerful transformational tool.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: So you think in college is where we learn to be less curious?
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: I know that I remember this very, very so.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: As I asked that question, I just had a moment like of when I remember being in a class and I challenged a statement, but not like in a bad way, but it was more so.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: Would you consider this a possibility?
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: And I remember the teacher saying I am the one who's teaching, you are the one who is learning and your job is to say back to me what I tell you.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: And it was in front of the class and this is graduate level, and it stuck Like that one stuck with me.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: Obviously it wasn't my favorite teacher, but I would say that that was a moment where I was being directly told don't be curious, especially in my class.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: So is it college where it happens, or could it happen anywhere?
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: It actually starts when we're about four or five years old.
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: Oh, really Okay, Like we live in this world of wonder and discovery.
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: And then we go to school and we're in formal education.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: You know, we are taught to sit in our seats and raise your hand.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and we just begin to get these messages of don't speak and listen and it's unfortunately, it stays with us until, like in your case, you said wait, no, I am going to be curious, I am going to ask questions.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: You overcame that?
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but if it's not poked at, if it's not challenged to say wait, I can ask questions.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: This is how we are in conversation.
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: This is how I'm learning.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: Is you have to unlearn being incurious?
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so like that's just.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: I want people to hear that because I think if you've lost it, you can gain it back.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: If it's muted or it's gone down, you can increase it and turn it up, and again, just like being bold, it doesn't have to be, you know, I say there's a continuum of boldness, from quiet bold moves that we make with ourselves, when our thoughts, how we speak to ourselves, all the way up to big swings of bold like quitting your job when not having one, but being bold and believing in yourself.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: So whole continuum of being curious to.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: You know, the quiet curiosity is not something that needs posted or put out into the world.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: You can be doing that on your own, just like when you're curious in the world as a child to the larger moments that get seen.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: Would you agree?
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: There's a continuum of it as well.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely Absolutely, and I will agree, there are times when it's not appropriate to be curious, right.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Same thing with being bold.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: There's times it's like no, this is where we're going to stay right now.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: You know, it's like you have, you have to gauge the situation.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: You also have to gauge your safety Right, like if you're in a culture where challenging the status quo or coming up with a different idea is not welcomed.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: It's one of saying this isn't the culture for me, but I'm going to stay here until I can find a culture that is more in alignment with my curiosity.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: So it's.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: It's one of having you have to know that you're going to be safe in order to be curious, and that's in a relationship and that or that's on a team or that's in an organization.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so within a team, psychological safety has to be there and present for even curiosity or boldness to exist honestly, because it's where you can ask things openly, without judgment or fear of retribution for asking those questions.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: So in the sense of that, I would see that definitely a key thing within teams.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: When you think about the generations, does it show up differently across generations curiosity?
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: It does.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: Actually, it is those in the workforce that are in their 50s and 60s are the most curious, isn't that interesting?
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: That's great, most of us would have assumed.
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: All right, it is the younger generation, those are in their 20s and 30s, that are finding their way and navigating their way in corporations.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: It is actually the ones that are more senior in organizations senior in terms of level, but also senior in level.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: Their age and my hypothesis of this is is because they're more confident and that I know who I am, I know the experience that I have, and I'm going to take a risk here and be curious.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: I think, when we think about being curious too, there's a connections to team or teamness or belonging and how you fit in or how you can create community within your networks or with your organizations.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: Do you feel that there's a connection between curiosity and belonging?
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, Because you think about.
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: Think about the best leaders or mentors you've ever had.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: It was individuals that asked you questions about you and got to know you, versus those that make assumptions about your background, your education and proceed from there.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: When I ask those questions in large groups, think about your most favorite leader and it gets down to.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: They cared about me and they showed it by asking me questions about myself and my dreams and how they could help me get there.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they spoke to me, they made eye contact with me.
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: I mean at the basics.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: They made eye contact right.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think just you know spending a few moments with your staff or with the people on your team, or with you know, with other leaders.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: I think just you know spending a few moments with your staff or with the people on your team, or with you know, with other leaders, I think again, and being present, you know.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: I think when we walk down the street, I think you see so many people.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: It's not just one sense, you know, it's not just listening, it's not just speaking, it's not just seeing, it's the whole thing together, it's really seeing the full picture of something.
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: But also that means taking time to do it right.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: Exactly, and I think people will be surprised how little time it actually takes.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah, it just becomes part of what you do, right, it's part of your actions.
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: It's just not something you have to add on, it is what you do.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: We have a lot of, I think, pressure within organizations for immediate results or quickness, agility.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: How do you?
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: You talk about structured exploration.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: What is that and what does that look like?
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: And how can we, how can we manage that and actually implement it in organizations when we have so many other things coming at us?
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: So you think, about.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: Let's say that there is a crisis happening within an organization or a legislative change that's now going to impact you and you have to take action.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: So there's something that's there is time pressure to take action.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: What if you started a meeting with your team they were people that were commissioned to go solve this and you said what questions are we not asking?
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: And let people say we've not thought about this, we've not thought about that.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: All right, let's put a plan together to go figure out these things.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: I often would ask what am I missing?
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: You know, I would be like what am I missing?
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: That was, I guess, my way of saying that I didn't know.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: I was being curious, absolutely.
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: And you know the, the leader that says we've got a crisis.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: I know all the answers and I'm going to go now give you directions.
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: You got to go do this, you got to do this and you have to go do that.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: It destroys the, the team dynamics.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: Now I'm telling you, if the building's on fire, you're not going to say what, what am I missing here?
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: So there are points where you have there is a whole crisis management protocol.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: I'm not talking about that, right?
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: If there's an urgent issue has to be solved within the hour or you have to take action with the app, this is.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: This is different.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: Perhaps.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: What I'm talking about is where maybe you have a day, maybe you have a week that you have to respond to.
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: Something is bringing those kinds of questions into play with your team.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, excellent.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: Well, as we come to the end, I want to kind of bring this around and just be at the point where you know, for those that are listening, you know, if they feel like their curiosity has been, you know, maybe dimmed or it's been muted, as I said earlier, what's something they can do, what's a step they can take today, right now, to reignite it, get moving or even know what to be curious about, because sometimes maybe they've lost, I don't even know what I'm supposed to be curious about yes.
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: So the first thing I would suggest is go ahead and take my assessment, my curiosity assessment.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: It takes about six to eight minutes and it's going to give you an idea of what's your current level of curiosity and those four factors right.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: So if you wanted to do that, if you don't want to do that, I don't think you have to ask yourself what do I need to be curious about?
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: But it's more of what is it that I want to learn that I'm passionate about?
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: What is it that I don't know, that I'd like to know?
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: And you would say, oh, I, you know, I would like to run a marathon.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: All right, what do you need to do in order to find out about running a marathon or something like that?
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: It's like what do I want to learn that either I'm passionate about, or what do I want to learn that's going to help advance me in my career?
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so just start, you know, really thinking.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: Is there something that I'm just wanting to do more of, learn more about and take one step towards it and, like you said, if it feels overwhelming I really made the statement, it feels overwhelming, then maybe make the steps smaller so that it feels like it's doable for you.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: Yes, okay, excellent, yeah, it's not go big or go home, it's like just take action.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: Think the smallest action that moves you closer to your goal, and do that Exactly.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being on the Bold Lounge.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: All the information about Dr Clary and her book, her assessment and how to reach her for your organization are below in the episode notes.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: Through the continuum of bold stories vulnerability to taking a leap you will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others through their unique and important story.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: By highlighting these stories, we hope to inspire others and share the journey of those with a bold mindset.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: We hope you've enjoyed this podcast and look forward to sharing the next bold journey with you.