Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #585 Jason Flom with Keith LaMar

Transcript

#585 Jason Flom with Keith LaMar · Wrongful Conviction

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, it's Connor Hall, senior producer for Wrongful Conviction with
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: another case update and more behind the scenes insights. And
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: today we're talking about a case that for me was
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: about as difficult to cover as only a few others,
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: namely Brendan Dacy, Rodney Reid, Leonard Peltier. It took me
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: about six weeks to produce the final episodes in each
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: of those cases. And also for this man here, Keith Lamar.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: I've been speaking with his advocate Amy Gordeev since about
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, and at that point the task was
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: just too damn big. We're talking about five murders, one
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: of which happened separately from the other four, and all
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: of the alleged witnesses gave their statements while in prison.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: I mean some are still in there. Some probably never
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: spoke to a defense attorney, let alone a journalist, given
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: their own culpability. So we were gonna need re enforcements.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: And over time the team at Levigne, Bell, Doc and
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: Hoffman got involved and did a lot of the heavy lifting,
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: and they were able to build on Keith's previous attorneys work,
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: piecing together all the ways in which each of the
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: witnesses in this case had changed their stories along the
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: way and then benefited from doing so. And as I
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: understand it, a number of other folks, some of whom
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: I've become aware of in the past couple of years,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: have come forward about the part they played in this case.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: So we're looking forward to that information being presented to
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: the court. As Keith is quickly running out of time.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: His execution date is set for January thirteenth, twenty twenty seven,
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: and Governor DeWine once again has a chance to step
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: in and grant some sort of relief. Perhaps those running
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: to replace him in November twenty twenty six will take
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: up this issue and state their intentions for Keith and
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: the death penalty in jen in Ohio. I mean, it's
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: not news to any of us here that the criminal
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: legal system in Ohio is deeply troubled. Now, after you
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: hear Keith's story, maybe you'll agree that there are enough
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: problems in Ohio and it's hard to trust any conviction,
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: especially those on death row, because the stakes are so high.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: A lot of corners get cut.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: Originally this was a two parter, but I edited it
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: down to just one with some voiceover. I get to
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: the heart of the matter a lot quicker while preserving
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: the details, and some of those details will have you
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: wondering how some folks sleep at night.
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: On Easter Sunday nineteen ninety three and May said, Lucasville
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: Prison in Ohio, it took control of an entire cell block.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: The crisis that became known as the Lucasville Prison Riot
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: lasted eleven days and claimed ten lives, including one of
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: the prison guards. When the cell block was finally under
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: an investigation ensued aimed at bringing the riot leadership to justice.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: After several rounds of interviews, five names emerged, including a
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: man who lived on that cell block named Keith Lamar.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: According to the state, Keith had allegedly commanded a team
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: of men who murdered four supposed snitches before heading out
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: to the prison yard, where the authorities ushered all the
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: inmates into another block that was still under state control. Then,
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: while confined in a cell with nine other men, he
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: allegedly ordered one more death. The other inmates weren't telling
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: this particular story in their initial interviews, but by the
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: time of Keith's Capitol trial, they were all somehow singing
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: the same tune, but this is wrongful conviction. Welcome back
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: to wrongful Conviction. Today's guest is somebody I've been waiting
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: for for a long time. His story. As terrifying as
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: it is, it's also the stuff of legend because this
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: is a man, and Keith, I'm talking about you. I'm
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: talking about you in the third person. I'm going to
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: talk directly to you. Now, Keith, you have had a
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: life that if somebody wrote it into a movie, nobody
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: would believe it. And this is a guy. Now I'm
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: back to talking about the third person who has performed
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: concerts all over the world from inside of your cell
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: on death row.
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: It's so bizarre when I hear you say it, you know,
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: but yeah, it's been. It's been a hell of a
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: journey man to say at least, and this situation that
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: I'm currently facing has only focused me more all trying
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: to get as much life out of my life as
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: I possibly can.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, despite fighting for your very life from
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: death row, which is literally hell on Earth, your pursuit
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: of art and life seems to have only gotten stronger.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: And like I just mentioned, you've put on this spoken
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: word than jazz concerts series called Freedom First, and if
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: that wasn't enough, you also put out an album by
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: the same name. But there's even more, you know, there's.
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: Books, documentaries, book clubs, and so on and so forth.
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: I'll just wake up and try to do as much
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: as I can with the time that I have, you know,
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: which is what we all should be doing.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: Right yeah. I mean, I don't even know a lot
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: of people out here in the free world who are
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: living as much as you are inside the literal living
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: hell of Ohio death Throw. And we're going to get
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: into all of that in more detail later on, and
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: we're also going to be hearing from one of your attorneys,
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: Keegan Stefan, as well. But now I just want to
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: turn around first and start from the beginning of your life.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: You were born and grew up in Cleveland, right, Yeah.
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: I was born in nineteen sixty nine on the east
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: side of Cleveland, Ohio, in a small little end place
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: called the Village. You know that I was saying, it
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: takes a village, I think for the people who founded
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: this little place took seriously. My grandfather Lamar brought his
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: own home in this little enclave. It was made up
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: of people who were in one form or another related
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: and you know, during dinner time, you're gonna walk into
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: any number of houses and you know, people will let
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: you sit down and eat dinner. But there was no
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: distinction about the economic status because everybody was pretty much
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: on the same level. And that's where I really grew
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: up at from a baby until I was around seven
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: or eight, and my mother met and married a man
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: named Larry Morris, and shortly thereafter we moved out of
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: the village into the inner city.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: Basically, I mean, the village sounds pretty amazing. It seems
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: like an odd choice to leave. What were the circumstances.
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: Well, my grandmother, she was to make sure of the family,
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: pretty much said what when and what didn't go in
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: our family. And my stepfather didn't like that, and so
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: he moved so he can kind of run his own household.
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: But he was a side or the steff at a
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: country club, working for meager wages. And so that was
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: the first time in my life that I ever remember
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: being home greed and sometimes, you know, the lights would
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: be off, the gas would be off, and we had
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: to heat the house with you know, keeping the oven
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: door open and whatnot. And we weren't allowed to tell
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: my grandparents about this. To him, my brother and I,
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: we were just two extra miles to feed. I had
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: two paper routes, cutting grass, shoveling snow, you know did
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: all those things. You know, pants might cost fifty sixty dollars.
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: And this was before Edic Jordan came out potentis shoes.
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: It was just out of my range as a kid
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: trying to do it the legitimate way. And you know,
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: kids are brutal, man. You know, you show up with
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: some knockoff Jordass jeans and you mass well came to
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: school but naked. You know, the ridicule was severe. It's
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: all authoritarily bullshit, but you don't know that when you
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: were a kid. And my brother, when I was ten,
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: who was twelve, he was hanging out with older kids,
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: and you know, he had undergone the same ridicule as
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: I did and had quickly off to becoming thief and
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: been sent to bate to juvenile And so I was
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: thirteen by then pretty much by myself, and started hanging
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: with a group of older kids in the neighborhood. And
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: one day we all piled into a stolen car and
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: a police officer got right behind us, and we was
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: in this high speed chase like on the eighteen miles
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: an hour down the residential district. And I was actually
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: relieved when I got caught, like thank God. And we
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: went before the judge and he lined us, all us,
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: about six of us altogether, in our families, and he
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: went down the line. He was giving guy six months
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: for each offense that they'd had. And he said, Joe Bruce,
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: this your third time in front of me, eighteen months.
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: Joe Butler, this your second time a year, you know.
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: And he got down to me. He said, Keith Lamar said,
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: what are you doing hanging with these bad boys now,
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: you know? And he gave my mother and my parents
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: the options. Do you need to take them home and
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: deal with them or I deal with them? You know.
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: A stepfather told him, you deal with them.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: And your mother didn't have anything to say about that.
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: You know. Ideally, that's what you would have hoped to intervene.
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: But she she had already been broken to the point
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: where she accepted somebody like this as her husband. You know,
• 9:07
  Speaker 3: any man is better than no man. And as it
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: turns out, he was. He was like a monster. He was,
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: you know, the very abusive tab.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: How long was your stint in juvie?
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: Six months? But I was thirteen, so it felt like
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: six years. Believing that not compared the situation I lived
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: and wasn't so bad. I had pre square meals a day.
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: I was in a structured environment. I came out of it.
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: I was on a on a roll.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: And who knows, maybe you could have kept going in
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: that direction had you returned to a more stable, you know,
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: home in life.
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: When I when I came home, I came home. My
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: parents had moved into a two bedroom department as if
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: my brother and I had went off to the army
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: or something that we weren't coming back home, and so
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: we moved up into this uninsulated attic. Was freezing cold
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: in the winter, squorching hot in the summer, and we
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: were pretty much put on notice that we were on
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: our own. Beyond our eyes. There necessities that we would
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: not be provided for. And I was thirteen. Still when
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: I came home, I think I'm gonna have to start
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: selling marijuana. Weed. I brought two ounces of marijuana and
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: I didn't look back. Man, that was the beginning of
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: the end for me.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what about your brother.
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: My brother had found the means of escape. He met
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: this girl named Paula who lives in the suburbs, and
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: her mother took a liking to my brother and allow
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: him to move in with them, and he was going
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: to school in suburbs. So it's me basically by myself.
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: Now I'm fourteen years old. I'm selling marijuana. I'm so
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: serious about it too, because I figured this is my
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: only way out. And I became very good at that.
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: I had about five or six guys working for me
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: and everything, selling marijuana on the street corners and whatnot.
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: And I came home one day and discovered that my
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: stepfather had been up in my room and had found
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: one of my statues of money. Not long after that,
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: my stepfather kicked me out. I was fifteen years old
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: and I moved into the project. And this is around
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: eighty five eighty six, right around the time crack cocaine
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: started trickling into the ghetto. Nobody really knew what it was,
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: how dangerous it was. By the time I was sixteen,
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: I had a mistake his Bens Cadillac driving Porsches, BMW
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: Rolettes Watchers, but run a year of two about nineteen
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: eighty eight, and all the detrimental effects of crack cocaine
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: really started to become clear. Guys I grew up with
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: were becoming dope fiends, and young women were selling their bodies.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: And as the crack epidemic were on, the community became
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: increasingly desperate, affecting even Keith's childhood friend, Kenyata Collins.
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: You know, he and I grew up together. We used
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: to walk to school together, played basketball together. By the
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: time nineteen eighty eight rolled around, he was hooked on
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: the crack cocaine, fell in with a group of guys
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: that used to go around robbing drug dealers.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: And on December second, nineteen eighty eight, Keith was at
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: the apartment when Kenyata and the stick up kids showed up.
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: And guys were forcing their way into the apartment. I
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: was shot twice, myself in the legs, you know, I
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: shot looking out twice, and he came through the door.
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: I woke up in the hospital and I was right
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: next to the king out of Collins. I heard the
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: doctors when they pronounced them then, and you know, I
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: woke up again and that was changed to hospital big
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: Even once I was able to walk again. I went
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: to the county jail and I bombed out.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is not a legal opinion, but your
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: actions in this incident sure sound like self defense and
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: the purest sense of the word.
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: But I didn't have access to the old self defense
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: laws because I was selling drugs. My hands weren't playing right.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: So what was your attorney's plan?
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: This attorney came to me on the evil trial and
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: told me, you know, that they were going to try
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: to put me on death row. And since I was
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: so ignorant out of law, I didn't know that they
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: elevate could climb in order to entice you to take
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: in the deal I played, gifts you to murder. It
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: really should have been manslaughtering, you know, out in the
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: state of defending myself. No fourth thoutar, malice or anything
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: went into us. It was manslaughter, you know. He convinced
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: me that that was in my benefit. That comped out.
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: They gave me eighteen years the life of that and
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: I remember that just saying, you know, don't worry about
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: the son. It's it's only twelve years six months to
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: the pro boy. But of course he didn't tell me
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: about the danger I was waiting into they send me
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: to Lebanon eleven in Ohio. It was three major factions
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: that kind of control the resources inside the person. The
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: Black ash Disciples sending Muslims although they don't consider themselves
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: a gang, and Aaron Brotherhoods. It's purpose a building kind
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: of a racism that I had. You know, the in
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: word you heard it constantly right around the clock. In
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: word is in word that. But I'm talking about my staff,
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: not just by the prisoners. We were down in southern
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: Ohio to Aaron Brotherhood were being armed by the guards
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: who worked there, some of whom were in the Aaron Brotherhood.
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: They had swashakers on their next And after hearing all
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: these war stories and young guys like me being raped,
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: you know, I kind of fixed my mind that that
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: wouldn't happen to me.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: But you didn't join the Sunni Muslims or the Black
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: gangster Disciples, right, oh?
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: You presume I wasn't in the Aaron Brotherhood I met.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: How rude of me not thought at that. I mean,
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: I'm sure their invite got lost somehow.
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: I never got an invite. But the first thing I
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: did when I came to let them, I joined the
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: boxing team. You know, once twice a year you have
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: a boxing match in front of the whole prison. You
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: could show everybody what you made off and people performed
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: the opinion after that as to whether or not you
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: are easy game or whatever.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: But I got my DDD and then they rolled into
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: the college program, so I was on the trib attory
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: in terms of preparing myself for this.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: This parolee date thing out of a prison gang was
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: part of that plan, which continued after Keith was transferred
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: from Lebanon to Lucasville in nineteen ninety one, which was
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: arguably a more difficult and violent situation because of a
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: truly tragic incident involving an adult education teacher who worked
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: at the prison.
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: Beverly Taylor was annee and she was murdered by a
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: black prisoner. Calls for the guy to be executed or
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: being put forth by the community, but the guy was
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: mentally handicapped and was deemed ineligible for the death ninity,
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: So they didn't get what they wanted, and so ultimately
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: a new warden was appointed a guy and they offer
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: take I think around ninety ninety one off the Tate
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: instituted this thing called operations shakedown, and he started kind
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: of turning the scrooves, tightening up on everything. You know,
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: you have to have your shirt tucked in at all times,
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: you got to walk on the right side of the hallway.
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: It was more or less like a military camp down.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: Something that happened over night he set up this po box.
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: If you wanted to drop the dime on somebody's warned
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: to become a sniss, you just put an anonymous note
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: in the mailbox on your way to chow all the
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: various factions for being pitted against each other, and you
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: can kind of cut the tission with it nice.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: And there was one incident in particular that kind of
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: pushed the whole thing over the edge.
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: They came up with this berclosis test and if Hemily
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: had an alcoholic sssant called Feno that the Muslims extendously
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: objected to, and the Warden Tate gave him off amazing,
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: you either take the tests or we're going to make
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: you take it.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: So April eleventh, nineteen ninety three was Easter Sunday, and
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: Warden Tate planned unforcibly injecting the Sunni Muslim population on Monday,
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: April twelfth, So the Sunnies devised a plan to seize
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: control of an entire cell block by taking advantage of
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: the skeleton crew that worked on the holidays. Now, to
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: give you a lay of the land, Lucasville Prisons sprawled
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: out and ford directions like a wheel with four spokes,
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: one spoken compass maintenance, the hospital and dining hall. Walking
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: from there toward the center, you'd meet up with the
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: other three spokes, J block to the right, Kate to
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: the left, an L block straight ahead. Now, K and
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: L both consisted of a long hallway with a jim
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: athy N and eight wings to the sides, L one,
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: L two, and so on. Keith lived in L six.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: It was about three pm when Keith and the other
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: prisoners were in the yard between K and L block
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: when the Sunni Muslims saw their chance and struck.
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: Recreation was just about to end. They called over the
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: intercom ten minute warning for everybody started lining up to
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: come back inside the prison. And while we were standing
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: in line, a guard ran out with blood streaming down
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: his space, and he was followed by masks in make
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: care and the nine stickies, and we'd taken over we're
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: taken over. You know, I never forget it. And it
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: was just around thirty minutes or so that took over
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: the whole L Side.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: Person and they later barricaded themselves into L Block and
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: held it for eleven days. But at this point Keith
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: was still out on the yard and had no idea
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: what was going on or what was to come.
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: News started to circle out that they were, you know,
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: ramsacking the sales and everything. What was actually happening, They
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: was going from sale to sale, accumulating food, telling people
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: that they had to donate whatever food stuff that they
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: had so they can administer it during the ensuing days.
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: But the word that reached us on the yard was
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: that they was robbing the sails. And so it was
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: with that misinformation that I, against my better judgment, decided
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: to go inside and check on my personal belongings.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: And this decision to go inside L Block was how
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: eventually Keith's name got dragged into what happened on L Sex.
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: When I went in, I kind of immediately understood that,
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: you know, this is something more involved than just one
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: prisoner attacking the guard, because they were breaking windows, our
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: larns was going off. I mean it was pandemonium, and
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: you know, I made my way to my signed the
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: cell block L six, and in contrast to the chaos
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: that was going on in the corridors, it was very
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: very quiet. You know, guards were already locked into the
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: shower stalls, and there was different prisoners inside of the
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: cells who I later learned were but I didn't know
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: that at the time I came in, and not really understanding,
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: I ran down to my cell and there was a
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: person inside of my cell, and so instinctively I ran
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: up to the control panel trying to unlock my door
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: so I can get this person out of my cell,
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: because as far as I was sign that confirmed. But
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: I already kind of figured that somebody was rifling through
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: my things, but you know, he was a hoshist. I
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: went up to the control panel, was turning the knobs randomly,
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: you know, not really understanding how to work the panel,
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: and opened up a few other doors in invertedly, and
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: you know, that alerted the Sunny Muslims who were inside
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: the part, and they accostant me and told me, you
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: know know in certain terms that you know this is
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: what's going on, Willers, So you get the fuck out
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: of here. And you know, I chose to leave unless
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: it came back onto the yard.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: Keith was ultimately accused of killing four men during his
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: short trip inside L Block. The hostages being held on
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: L six, who, according to the state, or snitches. At
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: this point, I want to bring in one of the
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: attorneys representing Keith. He's an associate at Bell Doc Lebin
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: and Hoffman. Keegan Stephan. Welcome to the show. Thank you so, Keegan.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: The state's narrative of what happened on that awful Easter
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: Sunday in nineteen ninety three obviously diverges from Keith's version
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: of events, but let's start with where they are the same.
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: You know, Keith was not in L six when the
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: riots started, even by the state's theory and narrative of events. Second,
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: you know, this riot was very deliberately planned by a
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: group of people that Keith was not a part of.
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: And again the state concedes that, which seems like a
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: very important point.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: Right, But now the state disagrees with what we've already
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: heard from Keith.
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so that's where their stories diverge. Keith goes in
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: to get his belongings and leaves. That is what numerous
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: alibi witnesses say the state says that he goes in
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: and then forms a death squad and executes the people
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: that have been locked in their cells.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: And this death squad was allegedly made up of Keith
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: and four or five others who brutally murdered four alleged
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: snitches that were being held hostage on L six, Daryl Depina,
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: Albert Steano, William Spetty, and Bruce Vitally. But what did
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: they say was Keith's motivation for this?
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: The state says that it's effectively a bargaining chip that
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: if he forms this death squad and executes these alleged snitches,
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: then he can get out of L six, he can leave.
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: You know, people who staged the uprising have said that
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: Keith would not have had that power, that they wouldn't
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: have let that happen, that this wouldn't have been a
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: bargaining chip to let people leave. So it's inconsistent with
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: what was going on in the prison, and it's inconsistent
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: with what Keith was doing. It's inconsistent with numerous alibi witnesses.
• 21:59
  Speaker 4: It's only consistent with the stories of the people who
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: testified against Keith, who were obviously highly motivated to testify
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: in that manner.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: And later on we'll get into the testimonies of those
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: receiving either leniency, shorter sentences, immunity, a transfer, or most
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: of the above. But first let's get back to the
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: story from Keith's perspective from when he returned to the
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: yard and the prison was in full crisis and chaos mode.
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: I mean, helicopters were flying up above over the prison,
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: and then gradually the National Guards showed up, the Ohio
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: State Patrol showed up, and they took up stands around
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: outside the perimeter fence and they you know, machine guns
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: out and riot here, the riot helmets and everything, and
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: so we're thinking, this is any amount of time before
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: they regain order, and an hour go by, two hours
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: to go by, and then the body started coming out,
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: you know, a coup of masks inmates that come out
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: of the building waved and would it like to be
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: of a machete and it was real then that body
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: on the yard. Ten fifteen minutes to go by, and
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: someone for an administration of Medica or whatever come and
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: recreate the body and take it back through the k
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: Side area. Thirty minutes to go by another body, then
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: another body, another body. Then it start getting dark outside,
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: started getting cold, and then eventually guys started setting bomb fires,
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: you know, out from the wood from the boxing rings,
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: and you got to stand. You know, the boxing rink
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: was my Saints Agararily, this was a place where I
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: went to to kind of, you know, make peace with
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: all the bullshit that I've been through my life. You know,
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: I'm tearing a boxing ring up, trying to get full
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: so I can start a fire, because it's chilly April
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: for silly at nighttime. So if we're standing around the
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: fires and everything and all while this is happening, the
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: Highway Control of the National Guards is standing there watching.
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: By now, I don't know, five or six bodies have
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: been brought out to the yard, and most of them dead.
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: People whose job it is to stop me from being
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: one of those dead bodies are standing on the outside
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: of the fence. And this inavetle that you take in
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: the notes and that one of these bodies could be mine.
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: Around three o'clock in the morning, Highway State Patrol came
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: out Gune Strong and ordered all of us to line
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: up to innerd case out of Gymnasium Once we got
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: inside of there, they stripped all of us naked, took
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: all our clothes and made us sit down in the
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: middle over the gymnasium floor, probably about four hundred people
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: or something, and we stayed there like that and total
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: starts nakedness for hours the same life. Eventually they started
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: taking us random groups of ten and escorting us to
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: these single man's sales. So they put ten neckd into
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: it in these sales. The side of a closet, my
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: recollection is right, and I'm in K two thirty six
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: or nine other making individuals.
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: And in that cell the fifth murder happened, and the
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: States says that Keith's ordered the murder. You know, Keith
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: says that there was a confrontation and that he had
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: nothing to do with it.
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: When they finally came around and gave us jumpsuits, and
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: that long after that, Prow salances in the sale, which
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: is the first time many of us had eating since
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: the whole old deal started. There was like a feeding frenzy.
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: Some guys took more than his share. And Dennis Weaver,
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: he was one of the older prisoners in the cell,
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: and he, you know, held onto his dignity and refuse
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: the Candra joined the freight and made the mistake of
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: saying something about it to this guy William Bowl and
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: got a named Sabet and sebast put him in a
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: choke hold, and these two other prisoners held his feet down,
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: you know, because he was struggling trying to free himself.
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: When the authorities came to remove dinner from the ceale
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: and tried to question us, Eye, along with most of
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: the guys in the sale, said that we were asleep,
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: which was our way of saying that we didn't want
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: to be involved, because that's one of the things you
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: learned in prison, to avoid violence by minding your own business.
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: And we don't know at the time that why not
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: saying anything, we allowed the guy who actually committed the
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: murder to shift the brain. You know. He said he
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: was forced to kill Dennis by me and several other individuals.
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: You know, it's a pretty wild leap to go from
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: someone not telling you the complete truth, from someone saying
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: that they were asleep, to saying that they ordered a murder.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: It's also obviously hard or impossible to order a murder
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: when you don't have a weapon or the cloud of
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: a prison gang behind you, but that's what the state
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: and its cooperators ended up saying Keith did. Once the
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: riot thus settled and many rounds of interviews began, but
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: at this point the instigators of the riot were barricaded
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: into L Block, armed with the prison's hostage negotiation handbook
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: and eight hostages making demands while anticipating the authority's moves. Wednesday,
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: April fourteenth, a sheet was hung from a window threatening
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: the death of a hostage if their demands were not met.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: Among those demands were food, water, electricity, access to the
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: news media, a stipulation regarding any future medical testing, the
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: hiring of more blackguards, the relaxation of day to day restrictions,
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: and various quality of life improvements, as well as the
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: removal of Arthur Tate. Now. Early Thursday morning, April fifteenth,
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: the body of one of the hostages, forty year old
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: prison guard Robert Landingham, was produced from EL Block. He
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: had been strangled to death. The negotiations continued, a few
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: hostages were released, and finally, on Wednesday, April twenty first,
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: a list of twenty one demands were met to solidify
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: the surrender of L Block. In the end, ten men
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: had died, Earl Elder, Franklin Farrell, Bruce Harris, David Summers,
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: Darryl Depina, Bruce Vitali, Albert Staiano, William Svetti, Dennis Weaver,
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: and of course the prison guard Robert for landing him.
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: And so regards really show the prosecution.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: So let's talk about the investigation led by Hamilton County
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: prosecutors Mark Pete Meyer and Seth Tiger. We remembered their
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: names from other wrongful convictions, including Elwood Jones, who they
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: were totally willing to send a death row even though
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: they had scientific evidence of his innocence, So you could
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: draw your own conclusions from that as well as what
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: you're about to hear.
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: Right, was designed over awesomely. But the Black guest Disciples,
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: the Sonny Muslims in a brotherhood by the goal was
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: to put the leadership on death row.
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: It's remarkable the number of interviews that took place and
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: the number of times the same incarcerated people were interviewed
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: and how much their stories changed. Most of them did
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: not identify Keith in their early interviews and even affirmatively
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: said that Keith was not involved. And then at a
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: certain point in that arc of giving statements. They all
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: started identifying something shifted there and he became a very
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: easy scapegoat.
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: Well, and brother here is represented on death row to
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: Sunday Muslims, I'm represented here on death row. The only
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: people who are not represented here on death row it's
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: a Black agste Disciples. Guess where there they were at
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: now walking the street because they testified against the leadership
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: of these other games. And I'm the fill in for
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: the Black Ante Disciples. It's an open secret. I mean,
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: it was an article that was written on the thirty
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: of anniversary recently in the Cincinnati Inquired and the prosecutor
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: is Mark Beetmark is on record and he said that,
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: you know, did I make the deal with the devil? Possibly?
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: It's possible that the guy who maybe had blood on
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: his hands is on the street right now. But that
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: was the cars that we were dealt. You know, that's
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: how the justice system works. Let's first come, first servant.
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: You know. The guy who Mark Petmarer was referring to
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: in the article was Anthony Lavelle. He was the leader
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: of the Black As Disciples. Basically, everything I've read, everything
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: I've heard, you know, been thirty years he was the
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: one who was really responsible for most of the killings,
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: including the guards death.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: And so it appears that the leadership of the Black
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: Gangster Disciples, Anthony Lavelle, Stacy Gordon, as well as others
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: who were actually involved in the deaths I know a block,
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: managed to avoid accountability by supporting the narrative that laid
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: blame for all ten deaths on the other four man.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: And of course Keith.
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: Never been in the game, but I had a prior
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: record for murder. I was inside of the L six
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: pod when I came in for that brief time. I
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: wasn't wearing a mask. People identified me, said Keith and
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: Marws inside the pot. They pulled my record. And recently,
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: when we did a four year inquest, we found out
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: that the prosecutor had written his name on my file,
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: like this is significant, this is somebody if we can use.
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: I had to play guilty in my original case.
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: He was already facing a sentence that maxed out at life.
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: Everybody sort of thought he would take the plea. As
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: everyone who's talked to Keith knows, he's a remarkable individual
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: of the utmost principles, and he was not going to
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: plead guilty to a bunch of murders. He did not
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: come in.
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: You know, one of the things that you don't see
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: on Law and Order and those different police shows on
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: television is that you know, it's real and formal environment.
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: They call you by your first name, and you know,
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: I thank your old buddies like Keith. Come on, we
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: passed that we're going to need you to cop out
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: to this, and you be doing yourself a favor. Otherwise
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: we're going to put your black ass on death row.
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: Cop out to murder, and we're running time concurrent with
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: the time you're already doing, and be like you're getting
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: off scott free. I said, but I'm innocent, though, I'm
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: not getting off scott free when you're talking about prolonged
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: my stay in prison beyond my parole day and I
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: haven't done anything when I was presented with this. Still
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: this is if you plead guilty, you'll be going to
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: parole board in your early fifties. Well, I'm fifty three
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: years old right now and still going to the parole board.
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: I'll facing execution in less than six months. I would
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: never spent the last thirty years inside the check of
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: family at the beds. I went twenty years without touching
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: my family. I've been on I don't know how many
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: homeless strikes. I would never have to go through any
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: of that. Had I played guilty to these clowns I
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: didn't commit or had I actually killed five people. But
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: if I play guilty to murder, you got one at
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: a time with the time over. That's a hell of
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: a deal for a mass murderer. But if you stand
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: on your innocence, they said, oh you want to try, okay,
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: if we're going to be in your trial.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: And that's where we left off in Part one of
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: Keith Lamar's coverage. Instead of taking the blame for five
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: debts and remaining parole eligible, Keith risked death and stood
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: on his innocence and was taking a trial where he
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: faced an uphill battle. He was tried in a nearly
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: all white county accused of ordering five deaths during a
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: prison riot. Four alleged snitches in L six Bruce Vitali,
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: Darryl Depene, Albert Staiano, and William Sevetti, as well as
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: Dennis Weaver in sel K two thirty six, and in
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: Part two we delve into the evolution of the various
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: witness testimonies, something that was impossible for trial council. You see,
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: during the discovery phase, rather than handing over the interview transcripts,
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: the state argued that it would be too difficult to
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: locate all the exculpatory statements, which obviously is no excuse
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: to violate a defendant's constitutional rights. So they were ordered
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: to find what they can, which is not exactly what
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: justice demands. And in a two thousand and seven evidentiary hearing,
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: Mark Peepmeyer outlined the incredibly narrow standard by which they
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: deemed something exculpatory, since these were group murders, if Keith
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: wasn't specifically excluded, well then that statement doesn't exclude Keith.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: And it's discovered later that they hadn't even met that standard.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: Were several states witnesses who will talk about soon. Lewis Jones,
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: Anthony Walker, and Stacy Gordon did just that. They excluded Keith,
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: but still their statements were hidden. And it gets even worse.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: The prosecution argued that the identities of cooperating witnesses needed
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: to be protected, okay, so they were ordered to provide
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: exculpatory statements without names attached to them. So if you're following,
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: that makes the statements useless for cross examination. How are
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: they supposed to be able to impeach witness if they
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: couldn't present an initial statement in which they had denied
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: Keith's involvement, right, Like, Hey, you're saying this now, what
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: about this first statement you gave where you're like, no,
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: Keith had nothing to do with And then you can't
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: even like follow up and investigate or you know, look
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: for a rebuttal witness. Right, That's what was allowed to happen.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: The exculpatory statements were just read into the record without
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: an idea identity attached, and then forty three names were
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: read into the record as potential sources for those statements,
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: all of whom refused to cooperate with Keith's defense team
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: because they all had something to lose. It was only
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: after other trials or guilty plea proceedings that those statements
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: became available with the names attached, allowing Keith's appellat attorney
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: to do the analysis that could and should have been
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: done in preparation for Keith's trial, placing the statements with
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: their corresponding witnesses along with the context of what was
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: received in exchange for going along with the state's narrative.
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: Almost all of the testifying witnesses followed the same arc.
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: Initially they were not naming Keith Lamar or even affirmatively
• 35:48
  Speaker 4: saying that Keith was not involved, and then over time
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: as they gave more statements, started saying that Keith was
• 35:56
  Speaker 4: involved and Keith.
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: Was the leader of the desk squad.
• 35:59
  Speaker 4: You know that suspicious to say the least. And then
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: almost all the witnesses to some degree also received deals
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: and have credibility issues.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: So let's talk about those witnesses.
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: The testifying witnesses against Keith were Robert Bass, Anthony Walker,
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: Thomas Taylor, Stacy Gordon, Lewis Jones, Ricky Rutherford, and Michael Childers.
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: Many of the witnesses were transferred to Oakwood, which was
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: a much more favorable facility for incarcerated people. Even the
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: witnesses themselves testified that the guards were catering to their needs,
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: giving them unlimited supplies of cigarettes, unlimited supplies of the canteen,
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: extra visitation jobs, and free range of movements.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: But more importantly, almost all of those testifying witnesses had
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: everything to gain. I mean, some of them had flat
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: out admitted to killing one or more of the victims,
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: and then they just shifted blame ont to Keith, saying
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: that he made made them do it and being in
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: this better situation together. The witnesses were also able to coordinate.
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: They went over script Mark Pete ma a Thanksgiving dinner
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: with these prisoners. They had movies. They had to free
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: Runner the commissary, and he's saying witnesses would carry from
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: trow to trout.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: So Keith was charged with four murders from L Block
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: Darryl de Pina, Bruce Vitali, William Sveetti, and Albert Steano.
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: But let's start with the one from K Block, Dennis Weaver.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: Keith told the story of how he was piled into
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: this cell on K Block with nine other guys when
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: a Sunni Muslim named William bowing aka Shabaz killed a
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: man named Dennis Weaver along with two others, Ricky Rutherford
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: and Michael Childers, who ended up testifying that Keith had
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: told them to do it.
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: We've been able to find Alfa Davis from one of
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: the Muslims who was in the pot with William Bowley
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: after Dennis was killed and he encouraged William Bowley to
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: say listen, just just say he made you do it,
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: and they already said she'd buy him about the Alesid
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: and I.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: Have that two thousand and five AFFI davit right here
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: from Abdul Mohammed Sadik, who said that he had been
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: previously threatened by Dennis Weaver. And he continued in the
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: affidavit talking about the time he spent in the same
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: style with William Bowling in the aftermath of the riot.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: Now Michael Childers was in a nearby cell as well.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: Sadik said that Shabbaz admitted to killing Weaver out of
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: loyalty to him, a fellow Muslim whose life had been
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: threatened by Weaver, a non Muslim. Sadiq told Bowling, and
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: this is a direct quote, that he should join with
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: Childers and blame Lamar for the order since Lamar was
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: a non Muslim and he was being seen as a
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: ringleader for other inmate murders. Anyway, end quote.
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: And William Bowling when it came down to testified.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: Neil Drau, he refused to go right, but Michael Childers
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: and Ricky Rutherford did testify. Kegan, what can you tell
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: us about these two.
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So Ricky testified that Keith was the leader of
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: the death squad, that Keith told him to tie up
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: Weaver and that he did it, and then Keith told
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: Childers to kill Weaver, which Childers did. Rutherford was transferred
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: to Oakwood, where they were given preferential treatment, and was
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: charged with an aggravated murder, but the charge was reduced
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: to involuntary manslaughter and he received five to twenty five years,
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: but that was sort of intentionally meant not to increase
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: the time that he would serve. The state also promised
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: to let his cooperation be known to the parole board,
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: provide him with counsel for his appearance for the parole board,
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: and make all of the transcripts available to him.
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: So Rutherford admitted participating in Dennis Weaver's murder, completely remove
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: William Bowling from the equation, and then for the small
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: price of saying Keith made us do it, he received
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: a better prison assignment and effectively no additional sentence for
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: the murder.
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: In addition, Rutherford is one of a couple testifying witnesses
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: who suffered severe mental illness auditory, visual and command hallucinations,
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: but those records were never turned over to the defense.
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: Jeez Christ. Okay, so what about Childers.
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: Michael Childers first said that other incarcerated people tied Weaver up,
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: and he said that he was told to kill Weaver,
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: but when he went to do so, Weaver was already dead.
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: Then ultimately he admitted to killing Weaver, but said that
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: Keith told him to do so. Again, he was charged
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: with murder but pled to involuntary manslaughter. Childers is another
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: witness who was severely mentally ill. Medical records showed that
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: he suffered hallucinations, and those medical records were not turned
• 40:29
  Speaker 4: over the defence, so the defense could not argue to
• 40:31
  Speaker 4: the jury that this person was not a credible witness.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: And again, the mental illness was the least of the
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: credibility issues. Childers got a huge break and sentencing. Instead
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: of murder, which is a capital event, involuntary manslaughter, which
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: is what he was charged with in Ohio, means three
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: to eleven years. You can see that's a deal. Well,
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: he certainly didn't want to refuse all for the low
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: low price of blaming Keith for his own actions, alleging
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: that he gave the order like some sort of prison
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: gang leader like Anthony the Bell or Stacy Gordon of
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: the Black Gangster Disciples for example. Now, Stacy Gordon actually
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: testified against Keith.
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so Stacy Gordon was one of the shot callers
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: for the Black Gangster Disciples, is my understanding. He plainly
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: admitted to helping to plan the uprising and to killing
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: another incarcerated person, and yet was never charged for that.
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: He was charged with assault on a corrections officer, but
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: pled out and received three to five years to run
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: concurrent with the sentence he was already serving. So he
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: effectively sarned no time for this assault during an uprising
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: that he admitted to planning.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: So he got no time for either the assault or
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: the murder. Wow, all right, So what testimony did he
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: give in exchange for this phenomenal sweetheart deal that.
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: He got at trial? You know, Stacy Gordon is probably
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: one of the more damning witnesses, and he describes Keith
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: as the leader of the death squad. Again, that's sort
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: of suspicious because other people identify Stacy Gordon as the
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: person doing a lot of the things that Keith Lamar
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: was ultimately picked for doing, which was opening the cells
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: that the alleged snitches were caged in, which was in
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: everybody's narrative, including the state's narrative, the step taken to
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: lead to their executions. And it is in just direct
• 42:23
  Speaker 4: contradiction to sworn testimony that he gave at his own
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: guilty plea for the assault on the corrections officer where
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: he was asked if he saw Keith in L six
• 42:33
  Speaker 4: and said no.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: So it sounds like he subbed Keith in for himself
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: in the state's narrative at Keith's trial, and then the
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: rest of the witnesses appear to serve that goal. A
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: guy named Robert Bass testified in addition to three more
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: men who all appeared to have been part of the
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: death squad, Lewis Jones, Anthony Walker, and Thomas Taylor. So
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: let's start with Robert Bass.
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: For Robert Bass, in particular, he did not bring up
• 42:59
  Speaker 4: Keith's name on his own. The transcript shows that one
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: of the interviewing troopers brought up Keith's name and then
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: Robert Bass started saying it back to the interviewer. And
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: this is like a classic example of a fed fact
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: that you know, Bass didn't actually testify as seeing anyone
• 43:17
  Speaker 4: assaulted or killed, but he said that Keith was in
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: L six, that Keith had a T shirt over his head,
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: but was sure it was him. He also himself admitted
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: to removing dead bodies from L six, but was never
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: charged with any crime.
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: He was somebody who I was on speaking terms for,
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: you know, doing a rise. He failed down staffs. He
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: was drunk or something knocked all his teeth out. When
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: he came to testify on he had all brand new
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: false teeth. I mean he looked twenty years younger. You know,
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: he looked at me. One of the guys had looked
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: at the table. One of the I'm sorry he got
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: he got released.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: He got early release, man, So he got his teeth
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: fixed as well as an early release in exchange for
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: some super vague testimonies saying that your head was covered
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: but somehow he knew it was you. Maybe he was
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: trying to make himself impeachable, sounds that way, But okay,
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: four down, three to go. Let's move on to Lewis Jones,
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: Anthony Walker, and Thomas Taylor. And we're going to do
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: this by going victim to victim a l block. Bruce Vitali,
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: William Sveetty, Albert Steano, and Darryl Depina.
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: For Darryl Depina, you know, there were other incarcerated people
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: who made statements saying that Lewis Jones was the person
• 44:28
  Speaker 4: who killed Darryl Dupina. Lewis jones statements changed dramatically over time.
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: He admitted to being a part of the Desk Squad
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: and listed everyone else involved, which is a sort of
• 44:38
  Speaker 4: rare statement for someone to give off the bat for
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: an incarcerated person, but he didn't name Keith. He said
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: that the group was led by a black Muslim, Lamar
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: was not a black Muslim, and then ultimately you know
• 44:50
  Speaker 4: testified that Lamar was the leader of the Desk Squad.
• 44:53
  Speaker 4: Other incarcerated people identified Jones as being involved in not
• 44:57
  Speaker 4: just the murder of Darryl Depina, but Bruce Fatale. And
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: despite that, despite him admitting that he was a member
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: of the death Squad and knew everyone else involved and
• 45:07
  Speaker 4: being implicated in two murders, he was never charged in
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: connection with the uprising in any way.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: Wow, he named everybody in the death Squad in his
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: first interview and excluded Keith, information that was hidden by
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: the state. And then for his testimony, he was transferred
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: to Oakwood and was not charged for two murders, Darryl
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: Topina and Bruce Fatally. And I understand that another individual,
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: Aaron Jefferson, was named along with Lewis Jones for Daryldpina,
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: and then there were additional people named in connection with
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: Bruce Fatali's death.
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so with Bruce Fatale, there is not strong and
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: credible evidence against Keith. However, there are other statements in
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: the record that two other incarcerated people who are the
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: actual people who killed Bruce, who were not charged with
• 45:51
  Speaker 4: this crime.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: Now, let's move on to the murder of William Speeddy.
• 45:54
  Speaker 4: A person named Eric Curti later admitted and pled guilty
• 45:58
  Speaker 4: to this had to give a call a queen about
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: the details of the murder that had to be accepted
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: by the court, and he specifically said that Keith was
• 46:05
  Speaker 4: not involved. That would seem to be pretty important exculpatory
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: evidence that should be a basis for evers in this conviction,
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: but the courts didn't see it that way.
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: And in addition to Gertie, there were court filings naming
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: three other individuals in Stetti's murder, Fred Frakes, Roger Snodgrass,
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: and Brian Eskridge. Yet none of those alternative suspects were
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: known to the jury or the defense, So moving on
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: to Albert Steiano for this one, the last two witnesses,
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: Anthony Walker and Thomas Taylor kind of tag teamed this one. Yeah.
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: Walker initially told investigators that a number of people who
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: participated in the beatings and murders in l Block, but
• 46:40
  Speaker 4: said that Keith was not present. Ultimately, however, he said
• 46:43
  Speaker 4: that Keith was involved, and so he just switched in
• 46:46
  Speaker 4: Keith for other people in his narrative and ultimately testified
• 46:49
  Speaker 4: that Keith was the leader of the desk squad. Keith
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: handed someone about and told him too, when he had
• 46:53
  Speaker 4: earlier said that was someone else entirely.
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: So this is another time Keith was specifically excluded, but
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: the state with help from the defense, and then Walker
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: joined the crowd, swapping in Keith for the actual assailants
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: in exchange for no charges for his own actions. Then
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: Thomas Taylor testified to receiving and using the bat that
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: Walker mentioned.
• 47:14
  Speaker 4: So Thomas Taylor admitted to murdering Siano. He said that
• 47:18
  Speaker 4: he alone hit the victim over the head with the
• 47:19
  Speaker 4: bat repeatedly until the bat cracked, but he said that
• 47:22
  Speaker 4: Keith told him to. And yet Taylor was able to
• 47:25
  Speaker 4: plead to invol terry manslaughter while Keith received a capital
• 47:28
  Speaker 4: murder charge and conviction.
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: Hayn were made about eight statements. In his first three
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: statements he was now committal. The four statement he said
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: he saw Keith Lamar is Stacy Gordon, he said Gordon
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: is leader in the di squad and being distilled statement
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: Stacy Gordon completely disappears from Nevertiel because state Gordon too,
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: have now become a space witness.
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: So it appears through the evolution of Taylor's statements one
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: could surmise that perhaps he was told to protect Stacy
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: Gordon while throwing Keith Lamar under the bus meant for
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: the actual murderers. So, with this pile up of witnesses
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: and no meaningful way to cross examine and impeach them,
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: all Keith's defense could do was present alibi witnesses. In
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: addition to those five men who had corroborated Keith's story
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: that he was out in the yard. Keith should have
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: had the clothes and the boots that he was wearing
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: when everyone else in the Yard, and he were moved
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: into K Block and stripped naked. If he was involved
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: in the murders on L Block, then there should have
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: been some sort of biological evidence to corroborate or dispel
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: his alleged involvement. But all that evidence was burned, along
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: with a piece of paper that Keith was alleged to
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: have stuffed down Dennis Weaver's throat. So without that or
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: any of the impeaching evidence that we laid out here today,
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: the jury was left to take the state's witnesses at
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: face value, with no physical evidence to corroborate any of it.
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: Because they did at one point roll a whole bunch
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: of wheelbarrows and shovels and fires stinguishers and hammers and
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: shanks and all this shit wrapped in plastic as if
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: they had did a meticulous investigation. Sit didn't have anything
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: to do with anything, you know, But no one was
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: there to see that throughout the whole trial was last
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: a month. There was no one in the gallery, you know,
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: it was empty, and story fire m guilty. I went
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: back to Lucasfield for money, and I came back from
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: centising and I had you know, writtenly memorized this little
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: speech that I wanted to say, and I came out
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: into the courtroom. Man, it was about three hundred white
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: people standing in there and suits mann in the easter class,
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: I mean, and it was standing room only. And I
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: hadn't seen iconic pictures in the eighteen hundred and seventeen
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: hundreds of black people being lynched, and you had this
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: big gathering, big swarm of white people standing around with ties. Oh,
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: it's the same thing. And when I seen them pictures
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: a couple of years later, I knew I've seen that before.
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: I said, you know, I witness that. I was a
• 50:08
  Speaker 3: part of that. I know what that is. That's a
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: lest one. The most important thing I've learned is that
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: who I am is more important than what I am.
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: And if I am who I say I am, it
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: it doesn't really matter where I am. I can still
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: be who I am. I mean, I'm in the fucked
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: up situation. There's no way to sugarcoat that. After decide
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: to taking five four all these years. But I am
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: not the situation. The situation is fucked up. I'm not
• 50:50
  Speaker 3: fucked up. I make sure that I'm not fucked up.
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: I have a routine. I've learned how to meditate. When
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: I was in my early twenties and I was lucky Jason,
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: I met and was meant to buy some very remarkable
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: being here in prison five secrets. One was my boxing coach,
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: and the other guy named that he was lack, a philosopher, poet,
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: you know, kind of turned me on to a lot
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: of literature that was like a therapist as well, can
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: I help me deal with some of the trauma. And
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: then when I ride on death Row, I met another
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: older guy named Snoop who I referenced in the music
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: in the album that we put out, the Field first album.
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: You know, he's been to us, showed me how to
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: do yoga, how to actually live. You know, I was
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: able to pursue myself even in this little space. You know,
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: I start developing my inner life. You know, I've rich
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: in the life. I've read, you know, close two thousand.
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: Books, man, and I have to ask, of the close
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: to two thousand books that you've read, which one had
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: the most profound impact on you.
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: Well, one of the things that I was given to
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: understand that if I wanted to change my situation, I
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: had to learn how to write my mind. So I
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: dropped out of school in tenth grade, and so one
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: of the books that I read that taught me how
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: to write was Richard Wright's Black Boy. Read that book
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: every day for you know, a few years. I was
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: reading with the intent of learning how to write, and
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: so reading that is how I ultimately became a writer
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: myself and wrote my memoir Condemned was chronical, you know,
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: my journey through the criminal justice system on death row.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: This is the most important part of the story in
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: my opinion. Right, of course, I'm talking about your poetry,
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: your performances, music writing. Wrote Condemned, as I understand it,
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: in solitary confinement on a typewriter a few pages at
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: a time, right, and dictated it every morning by telephone
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: to somebody who transcribed each and every word. You founded
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: a literacy program, learned to play chess, yoga, meditation. I mean,
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: I think most people are listening and trying to think
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: which people from their life, you know, friend, circle has
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: accomplished what you've accomplished.
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: That I'm doing the same that you are trying to
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: do a you know anybody else trying to do trying
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: to make the most out of your one and only
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: life and the circumstances are different, yes, but the goal
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: is to say to do something right just with my life.
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: Tell us what is Native Sons. That's a literacy program
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: that you founded.
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Eliza, you know Richard Wright, as I said, Man
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: had a big impact on my life, not just on
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: my writing, but just somehow to engage with life. And
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: I just thought that if I had read that book
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: when I was thirteen in the juvenile that it probably
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: would have changed something in terms of my self concept
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: and how I look at life. And so I just
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: started reading with high school students in the inner cities
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: here in Ohio and New York City, and it's been
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: really really a reward and experience.
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's incredible. It's kind of like you're reaching back
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: almost like trying to help your younger self. And you've
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: been doing that and so much more with one of
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: the unsung heroes of your story, Amy Gordeev. She helps
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: facilitate the literacy program. Event She's the person that transcribed
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: your memoir Condemned over the phone, as well as advocated
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: for you to us and Leah Rothman of The Real
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: Killer podcast. She's also the person that facilitates what you
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: mentioned earlier, and I'm talking about Freedom First, which started
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: as a concert series with New York based jazz musicians
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: and you on the phone from death Row sharing poetry
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: and spoken word. You've done shows literally, like it seems like,
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: all over the world from your cell. It's really incredible
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: what you've been able to accomplish.
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: You know, because I have time. You know, these people
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: have given me time, you know, given me really a
• 54:37
  Speaker 3: gift of time.
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: It's truly amazing to hear your perspective, and I believe
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: I could come around to it being a gift if
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: not for the fact that you have to also spend
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: that gift of time fighting for your freedom and your life,
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: your very life. So let's turn to your appeals. There
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: were a number of potential constitutional violations, like whether or
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: not some jurors were excluded due to racial bias, but
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: the main issue was and is, the withholding of exculpatory evidence.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: But this issue is kind of split into two parts.
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: The first whether or not the way in which the
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: information that was shared with the defense that trial constituted
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: or Brady violation, the landmark Supreme Court case that ruled
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: that the state must turn over all evidence that might
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: exonerate the defendant. And if you remember, the judge read
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: statement summaries detached from their sources.
• 55:29
  Speaker 4: The appellate court said these statements were turned over. That
• 55:32
  Speaker 4: ignores the fact that they were turned over in such
• 55:34
  Speaker 4: a way that they couldn't satisfy the very basic premise
• 55:38
  Speaker 4: of Brady, that they're turned over in a way to
• 55:40
  Speaker 4: defend yourself.
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: Right, how was he supposed to defend himself with these
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: sort of phantom statements with no names attached. So how
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: did the ruling get around that obviously clearly logical conclusion.
• 55:53
  Speaker 4: They said that they weren't exculpatory, which sort of follows
• 55:57
  Speaker 4: the prosecutor's very narrow defence of Brady, which is that
• 56:01
  Speaker 4: they weren't exculpatory because they said that other people did it,
• 56:04
  Speaker 4: but they didn't say that Keith didn't do it.
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: Which is patently ridiculous. There were plenty of people in
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: that prison eight hundred and nineteen, to be exact, and
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: they weren't specifically excluded either. And so what did the
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: court say to address that?
• 56:18
  Speaker 4: They said it wasn't material under Brady, and material under
• 56:22
  Speaker 4: Brady is effectively if it wouldn't have changed the outcome
• 56:24
  Speaker 4: of trial, then it's not material, and so we don't
• 56:27
  Speaker 4: need to reverse a conviction based on the fact that
• 56:30
  Speaker 4: these statements weren't turned over in a usable fashion.
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: So that refers to what Pete Meyer and Tiger did
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: turnover at trial. And then comes the second Brady issue,
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: the exculpatory evidence that was withheld from the defense and
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: later discovered by two attorneys who were appointed to handle
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: Keith's federal appeal, Kate McGarry and David Dawton. Now they
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: turned up the initial witness statements that we revealed earlier,
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: and at least two of those satisfy even the very
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: narrow thread the needle Brady standard that Pete Meyer and
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: Tiger devised. Anthony Walker and Lewis Jones both named everyone
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: in the death squad and specifically excluded Keith. And then
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: there's the statement about Stacy Gordon.
• 57:10
  Speaker 4: There were statements from other incarcerated people saying that Gordon
• 57:13
  Speaker 4: opened the cells that the allegis niches were placed in
• 57:17
  Speaker 4: and was the leader of the death squad, which is
• 57:19
  Speaker 4: basically what Keith was convicted of. Gordon himself admitted to
• 57:22
  Speaker 4: killing another incarcerated person.
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: And then was never charged with that murder, but rather
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: with assault of a corrections officer with a sentence to
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: run concurrent by the way, with the time he already had.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: And then at that assault proceeding Gordon specifically excluded Keith.
• 57:38
  Speaker 4: So that is again very clear material Brady evidence.
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: But the state courts heard all of that and didn't
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: think even one juror would have thought it mattered at
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: the time, even though that's all it takes to change
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: an outcome a trial exactly.
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: I was told not to suspect any release from the
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: state courts. I thought I will receive once I get
• 58:00
  Speaker 3: to the federal court. And I'm the only one out
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: of all the Lucasbill prisoners who were granted every diationary
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: hearing wove been back in two thousand and seven, I
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: believe it was, and put Mark.
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: Pete Myer on the stand, and this was when he
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: came clean about the impossibly narrow standard by which they
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: deemed something exculpatory.
• 58:17
  Speaker 4: Right, I mean, it's a it's a strange thing that
• 58:20
  Speaker 4: the courts did in reviewing those statements, right. They bought
• 58:24
  Speaker 4: Pete Myer's logic and said that if a statement said
• 58:29
  Speaker 4: that some people committed the murder but didn't directly exclude Keith,
• 58:34
  Speaker 4: then it wasn't exculpatory, okay.
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: But Pete Meyer and Tiger did withhold statements that were
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: not absolved by this ridiculous standard, statements that did specifically
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: exclude Keith. And yet the federal at state courts both
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: did the same thing, saying that the statements from Anthony Walker,
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: Lewis Jones, and Stacy Gordon wouldn't have made a difference
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: at trial. So Keith's habeas was denied in twenty eleven,
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: as was the in twenty fifteen, and in twenty sixteen,
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: the Supreme Court denied Sir TIERRAI, refusing to review the
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: evidence and the lower court's decision. Separately, there's been an
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: ongoing legal battle over the lethal injection protocol in America. Essentially,
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: the rest of the world is so disgusted by us
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: that they've been trying to starve us of the drugs
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: that were deemed to be quote humane, a ridiculous word
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: for this, and approved thereby for use in our lethal
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: injection protocols. I'm talking about sodium diopental or pentobarbital, the
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: anesthetic I think as the first drug in the three
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: drug cocktail. By twenty fourteen, states began to run out
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: of the drug, and so they started looking for alternatives
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: like medazolam, which then triggered legal challenges from those facing
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: their death penalty. The thing is with medazzolam. In many cases,
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: the condemned have suffered and writhed in agony on the
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: gurney for the better part of an hour, which one
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: would think would come constitute a violation of the Eighth
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: Amendment ban on Cruel and Unusual punishment, but our current
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: Supreme Court did not agree. However, this long legal battle
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: over the injection protocol did have the positive effect of
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: halting executions, even if only temporarily in the meantime. For Keith,
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: after his federal habeas was denied, he fired his attorneys
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: and his case was given to the Tennessee Federal Defenders.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: But with medazza LAMB cleared for use by the Supreme
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: Court of the United States, various states that still have
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: capital punishment began setting execution dates again, including Ohio, which
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: caused an imminent and very real threat to Keith's life
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: that has since been averted. And we'll get to that
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: in a minute. But first let's get to the Tennessee
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: Federal Defenders.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 4: The Tennessee Federal Defenders took over the case. They did
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 4: successfully get access to additional files that Miapella Council did
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 4: not have access to, were now going to be reviewing those.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 4: They were going to attempt to bring an actual innocence claim.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 4: They recognized that it needs to happen in state court first,
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 4: but their jurisdiction is limited to federal court, so they
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 4: were not able to make that motion. So since then,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 4: you know, Keith has needed someone to come in who
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 4: would be able to make a motion in state court
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 4: to bring in any newly discovered evidence.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: And that's where you and the team at Bell, doc Levine,
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: and Hoffman come in. Yeah.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 4: So David Singleton at the Ohio Justice and Policy Center
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 4: is our local council. And then we're also working with
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 4: Joshua Jack Jones at Northwestern Law School. We've now gotten
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 4: all the materials from the Tennessee Federal Defenders, the process
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 4: of digitizing all of that. We have an army of
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 4: attorneys and student attorneys now that are going to be
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 4: reviewing it at tandem, using the coding system to bubble
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 4: everything up to get to the attorneys that'll be writing
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 4: the brief.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: So there are still some promising legal avenues available along
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: with the potential for additional exculpatory material that you have already.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: And now Governor Dwine has granted Keith a reprieve. It's
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: cold comfort, but still aim that it ever got this close.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: But Keith had a scheduled execution date of November sixteen,
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty three. But now his team has a real
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: chance to litigate his case, and we are hoping against
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: hope that justice delayed will not be justice denied. So
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: what can our audience do to help?
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 3: And go to my website keithma dot org or follow
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 3: me on Facebook Justice MA. Just petition on those various
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: pages that you can you can sign those submitted to
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 3: the government, just to indicate to him how many people
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 3: are aware of my situation, who are watching the decisions
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 3: that he makes regard of my situation.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: All Right, we're gonna have action steps linked in the bio.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: It's important to note that Justice for Keith Lamar is
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: a nonprofit five oh one c. Three. There will also
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: be ways that you can delve even deeper into this case,
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: including another podcast The entire second season of The Real
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: Killer with journalists and host Leah Roffman. We're also going
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: to to Keith's book, his upcoming shows, and how you
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: can experience his work and get involved. So with that,
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: we come to my very favorite part of the show,
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: closing arguments. First of all, I think each of you,
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: then I'm going to kick back in my chair, turn
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: my microphone off, and leave my headphones on, probably close
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: my eyes, and just listen for anything else you want
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: to share with me and our incredible audience. So Keegan,
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: on't you go first? Then Keith? You'll think us hop
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: into the sunset.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 4: Keith is innocent and at minimum he did not receive
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 4: a fair trial. He needs to finally get a fair
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 4: look at his case by a court. You know, I
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 4: think Keith has said it best. He's not asking any
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 4: attorney to promise that he will get exonerated. He wants
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 4: us to create a document that lays out his story,
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 4: shows just how many constitutional violations occurred in his trial,
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 4: just how much exculpatory evidence there is, and put that
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 4: in front of a judge and make a judge look
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 4: at all of that and say we're going to put
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 4: you to death. Anyway, Keith wants his story out there.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 4: He wants, if he's executed, this to be something that
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 4: people look back on and say, look, that shows just
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 4: how inhuman this system was, just how doomed this civilization was,
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 4: that it would put people to death based on trials
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 4: that were egregiously unfair. And I think that Keith's trial
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 4: was egregiously unfair, and we're coming in to try to
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 4: write that. Unfortunately, our only method of writing that is
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 4: to find new evidence outside of that trial, get back
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 4: into court, exonerate Keith and Stay's execution.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 3: As I'm talking about all this shit, it's a lot
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 3: too man, you know it kind of you know, if
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 3: you if you didn't have a statement, if they pull
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 3: away all the statements like they do, pull away all
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 3: the cisical evidence, no one would believe his story. But
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: lo and below this mounted evidence, you know, all this shit.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 3: So for no other reason, the world want to know.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 3: This is what happened to me, what they did to me.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: And it might be, you know, I might find myself
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 3: staff to a guaranty, but it won't be because I
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 3: put to death Row and laid down and watch their
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 3: color tethers. This it won't be because I sat down
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 3: in that cell and didn't opened up a legal book,
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 3: that I didn't do everything that I possibly could in
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 3: furtherance of my own life. And it won't be because
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 3: the public didn't know about what it did. But that's
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 3: what this podcast is about, that's what the book is about,
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 3: that's what the documentary about. That's all what that's all about.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 3: It won't be able to call this justice now. I
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 3: might not be drifting to prevent them from executing me.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 3: These people have been killing, they're good at that, they're
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 3: assisting at executing people, lenching people, and I would join
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 3: the ranks of my ancestors. That's how I look at that,
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 3: and shit that that happened. I'm doing everything to prevent
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 3: that from happen, you know, but one thing for so
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 3: they won't be able to call this justice though, And
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 3: that's my goal. And so I've been retrying my case
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 3: and to call a public opinion. And it's a hard
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 3: sale until you read the evidence. You know, if you
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 3: haven't right there in your hand, you know, I didn't
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 3: have that jury didn't see that, not that it would
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 3: have made a difference, But we live in a different
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 3: era now and I'm hoping that people in the day's era,
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 3: after seeing George Joy and regarded Breonna Taylor, so on
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 3: and so forth, that they would, you know, responditionally to
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 3: this evidence and not say that it doesn't mean anything,
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 3: because obviously I came to prison that did something with
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 3: my life. I've rehabilitated myself and that that's what this
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 3: was about, and I have done that. I'm a perfect
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 3: unity for redemps. We all have to be given a
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 3: chance to learn from our mistakes and become a benefit
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 3: to our communities and whatnot. I can do that if
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 3: given a chance, if that's what we say, we truly
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 3: are about not dedicated the past two decades of my
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 3: life mensuring young people in the same situation I was
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 3: in when I was thirteen years old, and for knowing
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 3: since my bid hasn't got any soffer because of these
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 3: things I've been doing. I'm doing because it's in my heart, student,
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 3: because I had a recognition that this is what I'm
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 3: supposed to be doing with my life in spite of
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 3: opposed shit that happened to me.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to wrongful conviction. You can listen
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: to this and all the lava for good podcasts one
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava for
• 1:07:21
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• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: production team, Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Kliber.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: The music in this production was supplied by three time
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us
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• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram
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• 1:07:45
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• 1:07:49
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• 1:07:52
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• 1:07:54
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• 1:07:57
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