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Brigadier General R. J. Garcia · Five Questions for a General

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign.
• 0:03
  Speaker B: You're listening to Five Questions for a General, a production of the modern Morris Institute at West point. I am Dr. Charles Feint, the team lead for this podcast series which features interviews of senior military leaders conducted by specially selected and trained West Point cadet hosts. These exchanges produce timely, relevant, and inspirational insights for professional development of leaders at all levels.
• 0:25
  Speaker C: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the class of 1974 recording studio and the five questions for a General podcast. I'm Cadet Sebastian Witt, your host, and it's my pleasure to be here today with Brigadier General R.J. garcia, the Commandant of the United States Military Academy at West Point. General Garcia, welcome to the show.
• 0:39
  Speaker A: Thanks for having me, Sebastian. Really happy to be here.
• 0:41
  Speaker C: General Garcia, before we get into the questions, I'd like to ask you to share a bit of your origin story with our audience. Long before you were a commandant in West Point, you were a cadet here, class of 1996. Can you describe what led you to want to come to West Point and why you decided to branch into aviation?
• 0:54
  Speaker A: Yeah, I grew up in Texas, South Texas, really. San Antonio. My family's all from South Texas. As a young high school kid, all I knew is I wanted to be in the military. I just. I really enjoyed the military. My dad was active duty NCO for a while in the Air Force. Got out, went to school, started a family, and actually came back into the Army Reserves as a. As an officer. And so I grew up around him, obviously, and then some veterans that led my Boy Scout troop, even some coaches that had been in the military and then became sports coaches. And I just really appreciated who they were and what they stood for. And so I really was drawn to the military. I wasn't necessarily sold on West Point at first. I had a lot of interest in a lot of different opportunities in the military. I considered enlisting. I considered the Naval Academy, the Air Force Academy in West Point, and was very fortunate to have a few options. But really what sold me for West Point was running into some really neat people at sle, our summer program. And so, in fact, my squad leader, sle, is Colonel, just retired, and we kept in touch, and I worked with him on several things. Just the cadets that I interacted with at SLE were very impressive, and I really felt that this was the place for me. My cadet experience was pretty average in every metric you can think of. I was never anointed or thought of to be the next commandant or a commandant. I really thought I would just do my time and get out. I was average by just about every Metric you could find. And I toyed with a different branch every year. So when I finished beast, I was really good at light infantry stuff. I could do land nav and I could shoot a rifle really well. I grew up around that kind of stuff. Boy scouts, hunting and fishing. And I thought, well, I'll just be an infantryman. And then when I was a cadet, during what we call cft, we. We kind of referred to it as just Camp Buckner. It was still cft. We used to go to Fort Knox for a week and do what we call mountain maneuver training. And you got to drive a tank and a Bradley and shoot them. And so I really thought armor was coolest thing after that. So I said I was gonna be an armor officer. And then cal year, I was really getting into my civil engineering major, and I thought, no, I'm gonna be a sapper and I'll use my degree and I'll become a professional engineer. And then my summer going into my first year, I got some experience with engineering, and I just didn't like it. It was not for me. And my grades probably should have told me that I was not a great student, like I said. And so literally the night before branch night selection, I was. So I was putting my stuff into the computer. My choices, I didn't know what I was. And it was infantry or aviation. And that day, I spoke with an infantry officer at a blood drive. We used to do blood drives like we do today. And he convinced me to go aviation, although being infantry. And I thought, when am I going to get an opportunity to learn how to fly a helicopter? I came from kind of humble means, and I couldn't afford, you know, to get flying lessons, so I just thought, well, I'll let the army pay for it, and. And then I'll. I'll get out of the army, because that was my plans. And 29 years later, I am the commandant of cadets. So it, you know, life has twists and turns, and you run into wonderful people that inspire you and show you, you know, that you're doing good or you can do better and. And show you your value to the organization. And it got me here.
• 4:11
  Speaker C: Thanks, sir. It's particularly inspiring to hear your process of trying to figure out what branch you're going into, because I think you said verbatim about what 90% of my classmates. Right. Trying to. Trying to decide what branch to go into.
• 4:23
  Speaker A: But before you. Before we get them off that, I think there's a really interesting lesson there. And I'll tell you, I fretted about this. You know, infantry, aviation lieutenants all do the same thing. They take care of people, they take care of equipment, and they make sure they're ready to go do their job wherever it is around the world. And so whether you're taking care of, you know, an Apache helicopter at $35 million, or Abrams tank, you know, SEP3 or whatever they're at now, and. Or a light infantry platoon, it's all about making sure the people are ready, the equipment's ready, and that they are trained to do their job. And so, you know, my job as a brigade commander of an aviation unit was not much different than infantry brigade commanders. Take care of people, take care of equipment, and be trained. So.
• 5:05
  Speaker C: Absolutely. Yes, sir. Thank you. And now we'll get into our five questions. Sir. And I like that you brought up your cadet time. I think one thing that stands out about the briefs that we've gone to is you like to inject some stories about your cadet time and how Cadet Garcia got stuck sleeping in Grand Central Station. I enjoyed that one.
• 5:22
  Speaker A: That was true.
• 5:24
  Speaker C: So your journey to becoming commandant after your cadet time has been a pretty extraordinary one. When you look back to your own time as a cadet, though, what lessons or experiences from those earliest days of your military career most shaped who you are as a leader now?
• 5:37
  Speaker A: Wow, that's a great question. And as I think back on it, the lessons all sort of come together. I think the number one thing that I learned as a cadet at West Point was attitude is everything. The corps of cadets, the West Point leader development system, the way we develop cadets has changed, you know, and there's always old grad stories of how hard we had it. You guys have it just as hard as we do, just in different ways. And it's easy to get beat down at West Point. Right. Without a good attitude. And so I just, again, I was not a great cadet. Academically, I was okay physically and militarily, probably know, above average. But I wasn't setting the world on fire. And what I learned was just through this constant demand of my time. The challenges that come with leading peers, that's probably the hardest leadership, is to lead your peers. And then leading cadets, your attitude's everything. And if you have a good attitude, you can probably get through anything. And that, you know, I've served across some very tough circumstances. Whether it was deployments overseas or situations at our home station. If you have a bad attitude, you're probably going to fail. The most important thing is just have a good attitude. And if you can maintain that you're going to do great. The other thing is, I remember hearing this in Beast. We were doing a road march going up, probably up beyond Mikey Stadium. Up that big hill is stony Lonesome. I mean, we're struggling, we're plebes. It's like three miles, and we can barely. We don't even know how to put rucksacks on. And we're out there at the door, and I remember an officer, and I don't remember who they were, but I remember him zooming by me and he said, hey, when you're struggling and you think you can't go any further, grab somebody else's ruck and carry it for him. And that is. It's a really unique sort of way to approach adversity, because I've done that before. And what it always shows me is when you think you have it bad, give somebody else a break. Do something good for someone else. Give them a break. It'll get paid forward to you later or get paid to you later. It gives you something new to focus on. And when you're done, you know, I could. I could have gone a lot further. I could have carried more. And you did something great for someone that eventually they paid you back for, you know, and we developed that sort of mantra in my B platoon, my B squad. You know, when someone's struggling, we grab their rifle or we grab their website. Hey, we got you. Come on. A lot of times, I think focusing outward just helps you get yourself off your own struggles and then gives you an opportunity to. Like I tell cadets, you've probably heard me say, hey, your job is to take a step back sometimes and assess the whole thing. Right? And that allows you to do that. You know, take a step back. Who's struggling, forget about yourself, grab that person's stuff, help them, and then next thing you know, the mission's over and you. You accomplished it.
• 8:15
  Speaker C: So, sir, thank you. That's, I think, a very insightful and kind of rare piece of advice that we get about being in a team is just looking at the people around you. So, sir, West Point has a long tradition of producing leaders who thrive in a volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous world. How do you see the role of West Point graduate? As you said, West Point's changed significantly since you've been here. How do you see the role of West Point graduate changing over the next 10 to 20 years?
• 8:40
  Speaker A: Yeah, you know, I had a boss who used to say, the only thing that we're really good at is not being able to predict the future. Because we try and then it never turns out exactly like we want it to be. And so I think what we've got to do is prepare cadets and graduates to be the most flexible leaders possible. I would convey it this way, right. You know, a lot of times in the army, people get frustrated at last minute taskings, right. Or changes to those tasks. Someone's always going to have to do these taskings around a post or a unit and, and look, you know, there's complications all the time and people can't make it. And you know, there's lots of reasons why they change. And what I used to tell my soldiers is don't focus on the change. Focus on accomplishing whatever we. You're told to do, right? And I said, you know, when I was flying missions in Iraq, every mission got changed. You know, we would be going to somewhere to do a reconnaissance or to support some, some soldiers doing, you know, a cordon and search and then en route there'd be troops in contact and we would be diverted. That version of the story I just told you would be me getting on the radio and complaining that the mission changed. I would never do that. Right. Because in that moment you are so focused on supporting whoever's on the ground and making sure they're successful. I'm an Apache pod, so we are there to support them. Right. And so that mindset was very pervasive through our unit during deployment. But when we would come back, we'd go, oh no, you know, something changed. Forget the change. Six months ago we could have cared less about the change. It was about accomplishing the mission. So focus on accomplishing the mission by any legal, moral and ethical means. Right? Meaning don't worry about the process as long as it's legal, moral and ethical. Focus on the product or the end. And I think we've got to do a better job of that across. So that's one thing, right. I think we've got to prepare our graduates to operate and lead in the harshest, worst conditions possible. We over the last 20 plus years have, you know, we were fighting a counterinsurgency. We were able to build forward operating bases, we were able to build a lot of support structures and networks in Iraq and Afghanistan. And we're doing it today in other places and we may not have that luxury. And so I imagine our graduates will have to lead. You know, if we look at Ukraine, we look at Gaza, I mean, areas that are completely destroyed or in conditions that are very difficult, there will not be a green beans. I think in the Next combat operation. And so we have to have a mentality, a grit and a determination to survive. And so what are those skills? You know, one of the things we're looking at in cadet field training is do we bring survival training in? Do we learn how to procure water? Do we learn how to, you know, trap, capture animals? And it's one thing that every course I've gone in jungle school, I've gone to sear school, they all have this component, right. And it's not, it's not that you might have to do it. You, you probably won't have to do it, but it gives you a confidence that you can survive in really austere, desolate, desperate conditions. And I think that's really important as well. And then the final piece is technology. We have got to change and break down barriers and structures and free the young minds that come out of West Point, rotc, ocs, basic training, and let them lead us in this way. Right. You know, I give an example to my staff. I came from the 25th Infantry Division. I'm an old boomer. You know, I'm looking at a drone and I kind of see like the issues with it. Give it to young soldiers. In 30 minutes. They're flying the thing. They've already changed it. We've got to let these young great minds lead us through. I think Steve Jobs said, don't hire smart people and tell them what to do. Hire smart people and have them tell you what to do. Right. As the boss. And so we've got to sort of flip, I think some of our decision making processes. And I think our graduates have got to understand that and lead through that.
• 12:25
  Speaker C: Sir, I think one thing that kind of particularly stood out, your first point about flexibility, I know you served in Operation Desert Spring, which is at a time where we were, all the signs were kind of pointing towards we were going to go, go to war, but it wasn't necessarily certain. And I think. Well, do you think that the, the way that our world stands now, that officers are going to have to face the same kind of uncertainty and have to manage that same sort of flexibility where you just don't know what's going to happen but you just, you take it?
• 12:52
  Speaker A: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I think the uncertainty in Operation Desert Spring, I mean, what you sort of saw there as it went from that into Operation Iraqi Freedom was the system working really well. But it's a little bewildering too. Right. So. So what I was witnessing was equipment coming out of APS stocks. It was getting Retro or fitted for combat. Right. It's, it's pretty simple in the boats, but then they bring it in, they up armor things, you know, they, they, you know, test everything. And so you're seeing that, but then you're not seeing, well, what are we doing that for? Right. Because I didn't sense at the time we were going to go to war. I just thought, you know, maybe we were saber rattling or we were just preparing. Well, what you learn later on is that the logistics trail takes so long. I think we've got to cut that as an army and as a force. Right. We've got to figure out ways to supply, resupply better, which leads to a much more quick decision making cycle for strategic leaders. And that trickles down to the soldier. Right. So if we can, broadly speaking, if we could get units faster, we can allow strategic leaders, that is like the President or the Secretary of Defense or core commanders, you know, to make more rapid decisions which is going to inject more unknown to the tactical leader. Right. And it's incumbent upon them to learn and read, study and understand more. I will tell you, when I was there, you know this, so this was in O2 right before the invasion 03, I wasn't really worried about that, you know, Well, I kind of sensed, you know, that there was something going on and I knew we had issues with Iraq and you know, but Afghanistan was going well and I kind of thought, you know, my sense was we're in a good place, maybe we just need to, you know, deter. But now looking back, there was clearly signs that I missed. And so that rapid decision making at the strategic level, which we've got to solve is going to translate to more quicker decisions for the younger leaders, the tactical leaders, the direct level leaders, and it's going to make their unknown harder.
• 14:41
  Speaker C: Sir, in your view, what is the single most important leadership trait that today's cadets must cultivate? I know you mentioned a few in the last question, so it's a nice segue. And then the second part of this is, how do you personally model that trait in your personal life?
• 14:54
  Speaker A: Now when I taught PL300, at the end of it all my cadets would ask me kind of a similar question, like, okay, so you taught us all these leadership philosophies. What's the best one? And I would say, well, it kind of depends, right? I mean that's the point of what we're trying to teach you is leaders can use a philosophy or a model. They know when to use the right one really. They can use all of them. And they know when to use the right one. And I carried that in. When I was a squadron commander, I would do LPDs, and we would talk about the army leadership model, and we would go through everything, the key skills, attributes in there. And then I would kind of get the same question. Well, sir, you're giving us all these leadership traits. What's the best one? The question's really good because it talks about what's important for a cadet now. And I'll tell you, I think the leadership cadets and direct level leaders need to demonstrate is different than what I demonstrate now. That being said, I think the most important thing for a cadet to learn while they're here is courage. Moral courage and physical courage. Moral courage to do what's right. And I say it's to do what's right when everybody's looking. A lot of people say, oh, can you do the harder ride over these wrong or do what's right when nobody's looking? You hear that often as a definition of character, right? I think it's actually harder many times to do what's right when everybody's looking, because the pressure is on you then to do what's right and hold to your values and hold to the things you espouse to your soldiers and so. Or to your fellow cadets, right? You're going to stand up there and say, we got to do xyz or you got to wear uniforms right way, or you got to make, you know, be a leader of character. You can sort of do that silently on your own, and you can do it to a level that may meet the standard, but not exceed the standard. But when everybody's watching you, it can be really hard. And so. So courage, physical courage to do what is beyond your boundaries. And we pride ourselves at West Point of challenging our cadets to do that so they're prepared to lead in the most dynamic, austere, desperate times. And. And so I think courage is the number one thing. It is the foundation of good character. It's the foundation of your personal development. It's the foundation of your ability to develop your unit and your organization. How do I model that every day? Here's is a commandant. One thing is I do that in my personal example is everywhere. Everywhere I go. I know how difficult it is for cadets to wear uniforms, you know, and I hear about it. I wear our uniform every day. Yep. And so are we. And we try to maintain the same standard, really, in anything we do. I think the other thing that I do is I interact a lot with Cadets, and I try to explain to them how it relates to courage and having the personal courage to make the right decision. And I'm unabashedly, you know, transparent with cadets about, you know, ask them, what are you thinking? Why are you thinking that? And help them think through that, and then say, look, you've rationalized this, but is that the right thing to do? And remember, it's going to be really hard to do when everybody's watching you. You can tell me it's right to do it now, and you might be able to do it by yourself, but you've got to do it in front of everybody because you know, what if you do it by yourself and you fail? Okay, I'll try again. I'll keep trying. It's like being in a batting cage all by yourself. I keep missing. Well, I'll just keep trying until I hit it. No one's watching me. Now you're at Wrigley Field against some of the best pitchers in the. In the National League, and everybody's watching you, and everybody watches you fail. And you got to have the courage to step off and. And get back up there. So that's how I try to do it. And. And a lot of it's discussion and helping cadets reflect on their. On their actions and. And explain mine. A lot of kids ask me, why'd you do this? And I have the courage to defend what I decide to do on behalf of the corps. Cadets or United States Corps Cadets?
• 18:29
  Speaker C: Yes, sir. That's actually a great transition to the next question when we're talking about mentorship, because it's such a huge cornerstone of military leadership. Can you share a moment when a mentor of yours fundamentally changed your outlook and how that experience influences the way you mentor cadets now?
• 18:44
  Speaker A: Yeah, I've had several mentors and still have several. And I think what to my first point about a good attitude, what all my mentors, the reason they became mentors, I guess, or the reason I asked them to be my mentors. And that's a real important conversation to have with someone, you know, will you be my mentor? Will you help me through thinking through some things? Will you meet with me regularly? You know, was that it mirrored what I valued, as you know, from my very first point, you know, having a good attitude. The mentors, I have always challenged me, but at the end of it, build me up, make me feel positive about the decisions I made. That doesn't always mean they tell me what I want to hear, but at the end of the day, we've worked through something, and I feel better for engaging with them. Many of them have done that, and what came out of that was their trust in me. They started out as a boss, and I had one who. Well, really all of them, in some way, shape or form, gave me authorities that were probably beyond maybe what a normal officer at that level would get and trusted me to make the right decisions. The one example I was going to tell you about was this. You know, I had come from a unit, and I was really ready to get out of the Army. Actually, I didn't. I did okay there. I, you know, I was. I mean, I brought all my guys home. You know, we accomplished every mission kind of by every sort of metric we talk about. I. You know, I met the standard or exceeded it, you know, done pretty well. But I. I always felt like I was micromanaged, and I went from that job into a job that was strategic for the army, and I was. I was really sort of not excited about it because I thought, I'm just going to be micromanaged, and the thing this person does is really big, and I'm sure they're not going to let me do what I want with it, and I'm going to have to report all the time, and it's going to be PowerPoint and information papers. And about a week into the job, I said, here we go. And I went and I knocked on my boss's door. I said, sir, I probably should brief you on this situation that's developed. And he looked at me and he said, okay, go ahead and brief me. And he did. And then he said, okay, that's the last time you're ever going to do that. He said, rj, I brought you here because I trust you to make decisions. And as long as you do it legal, morally, and ethically, and if you do your very best, I will back you up. Every time. It was like a weight was lifted off my shoulders. And it was a great job. It was a great experience. And I realized there were leaders in the army that trusted me and trusted other officers, you know, because that was the way he led, you know, and. And he took some heat for it. You know, there were times we did screw up. Nothing legal, illegal, immoral, or unethical, but we didn't have the whole picture. We made a rapid decision, and he. He got called on it, and he. He always had our back. And that mentor is someone I always reached out to. And he would listen to me and I would vent or talk through stuff, and he would say, yeah, you're pretty wrong on that one. You know, I would do it this way, that way. But. But at the end of the day, I trust you and you. And you know, you've got to live with this decision. And I would generally always do what he said in some way, shape or form. And I always felt better about it. And that's the power of mentorship. And that's what I try to do to the folks I mentor, is help them think through it from all sides, whatever they're going through in their career or life. And some folks have reached out to me on life advice. At the end of the day, help them see it better, give them your experience, and then let them make a decision and support them as they go through it.
• 22:04
  Speaker C: What book idea or piece of advice would you find yourself or do you find yourself recommending most often to young officers?
• 22:12
  Speaker A: So there's three books that I have. I have lots of books, let me say that. But there's three that I think of often. And I give them out when I commission an officer or when cadets ask me, you know, for this kind of. And it happens a lot, you know, you know, what are you reading, Sir? I read a lot. I think it's an incredibly important aspect of our profession, and we think we're kind of special, but every profession really has reading requirements. It's mainly, though, in sort of professional continuing education. And we trust our officers and NCOs and soldiers do it. So the first book that I would recommend is and, and people will think it's because of my last name. Message to Garcia. Message to Garcia is a really quick read. It's, in fact, it's like in pamphlet form, but it really is the message of, of a lieutenant who gets an assignment from the highest levels. And the lesson really is that when you get a mission, you do it. You find ways to do it. You take responsibility for doing it. You don't. You don't need to drag it down or, or rationalize your way out of it. And I won't say much more than that, although, other than it's. It's an incredible, incredibly valuable lesson. And I would offer that once a cadet or officer reads that book, go do some research on it, understand when it was written, what our country was going through at the time it was written. It was not written recently. The author had a much higher point than talking about this lieutenant. He really had a. He was really sending a message to our society. And it's a unique lesson for officers in the United States Army. So my second book and I was given a copy by my dad was Once An Eagle. And Once an Eagle is. You know, people look at that. If you. If you put message to Garcia and Once an Eagle, they are vastly different, and you can just tell by the number of pages. But Once an Eagle is about two officers in the army, polar opposites, and their journey through a career of service and selfless service. I've actually read it twice. I'll probably read it a third time. I find it inspiring and grounding on what it means to be an army officer, really a military officer. But it's about the army, the struggles of our families, that the struggles are still the same when we deploy. It doesn't matter whether It's World War I, two Korea, or Vietnam, or the global war on terrorism. The family struggles in the same universal way. And so I value that book. I cherish it since my dad gave it to me, but I give that out, too. And then the third book, I have a copy of the Constitution, all of our founding documents in the Federalist Papers in one copy. And I didn't appreciate how inherent our service and our commission is to the Constitution and how every officer needs to understand how it was founded, formed, developed, studied, debated, and the basic tenets of it. Right? You are fighting for the Constitution. You've sworn to defend it. You should read it and understand it. I'm not asking everybody to be a constitutional lawyer on it, but you should realize that the basic rights and the premise of these founding documents that are there are what you fight for, not just for US Citizens, but when you go forward to do our nation's bidding, you're really what you're fighting for, for those principles that everybody has them. And so that book, to be honest, I think it's a. It's like a Barnes and Noble copy, right, that they've published or through their editors or through their publisher. And I think you can get anywhere. It's a tough read, you know, I mean, you know, to read it all at once, you're not. You're not going to do it, but reference it, think about it, and it should be sort of cornerstone to your service. And so those are the three books I would recommend, sir.
• 25:56
  Speaker C: After years of service and leadership in the army, what keeps you inspired and motivated every morning when you walk across the plane?
• 26:02
  Speaker A: So I tell people this all the time, and, you know, the energy at West Point is incredible. I didn't appreciate as a cadet, because I was a cadet, right? I mean, I was counting the days. I was not making the days count. I was counting the days, I promise you. And of course, that was our knowledge back then. You had to know how many days to everything. And when I came back and taught in BSNL from 2011-13, it dawned on me just how much positive energy there is. Right? And you could argue, well, it's not positive, there's energy, but there's an inherent positivity in energy, right. When you're seeing things happen and accomplished, right. There's a great energy. And so I love the energy here. The one thing that keeps me going every day, you know, after, after so a couple years in the military is I love when I see organizations be successful. I don't need to be a part of it other than resourcing it, you know, But I love to see when a cadet squad, platoon, Sandhurst team, the football team, what, whatever, you can break West Point down a lot of different ways. Cadet company, you got the college athletics, you got the club athletics, you got clubs, whatever. I love to see them successful. I love to see them work through problems, train for whatever they're doing and then they're successful. You know, that, that is what inspires me. You know, I've, I've had my time of being that cadet or being that officer. I'm very real with myself. I'm very self aware that my purpose is to use my rank for good, to make positive change in the army and to make people around me successful. And so I walk around a lot and I'll ask cadets, what are you guys doing? No, sir, I'm training for the acft and I'm trying to. I mean, they may say, I'm just trying to do 20 more points. And I'm trying to move from a. I'm a plebe and I just started this. I'm trying to get from a 500 to a 520. Perfect. Set your goal and do it, and I'll find that cadet later. What'd you get? Sir, I got a 5:30. It warms my heart, almost brings me to tears, you know, to see him do great. And there's some nuance there, right? It's not about achieving perfection. You can get there, but it's about just getting 1% better every day. I had a boss who taught me, just get 1% better every day. You do 50 pushups, do 51 the next day and just get better. And so that's where I find that I'm most useful and what motivates me every day.
• 28:11
  Speaker C: Sir, West Point is famously rigorous, physically, mentally, morally. How do you Strike the balance between maintaining those high standards and making space for innovation, growth and even failure, as you mentioned before, bringing in the younger generations.
• 28:25
  Speaker A: So, Sebastian, I think your question sort of implies it's one or the other. But hopefully through all these questions, people have realized it's okay to fail. I'm gonna fail. Like I'll fail out at comps PT next Wednesday or whatever. I mean, I will have trouble, you know, I mean, there might be something that somebody throws at me or when the Soup Designs PT session, man, I've never done that. And so I don't see it as sort of this polar thing that you gotta choose, right? In fact, I think the high standards come because you fail, right? You're gonna have things you try to do that you don't do well. And so you've got to just accept both of them. Right? And to your earlier question about courage, you know, that's how I demonstrate courage a lot too. Hey, Cadet Rodriguez. I might fail at this, but I'm gonna get better doing it and I'll get it right one day. And that's been since I was 29 June 1992 when I showed up. That was my R day, a day that will live in infamy in my mind. You know, I remember it and I started failing immediately. What I learned from all that is you'll get the high standards if you just keep trying. So I don't see it as sort of this, how do I do it while, you know, still doing it? I just do it and I just fail. And then I fail better and I get better.
• 29:34
  Speaker C: Thank you, sir. Ah, sir, you mentioned this really early on in, in this discussion, but when you were a cadet, did you ever see yourself coming back here in a leadership position?
• 29:44
  Speaker A: No, not. Certainly not as the commandant. I thought I could teach here, but I just thought I was never going to serve long enough to do it. I had three commandants. I keep in touch with one of them pretty regularly. He's a wonderful man, a wonderful officer, wonderful role model. I didn't know the soup. I don't even know who the BTO was when I was a cadet. Could not give you his name again. I told you in the beginning I wasn't a bad cadet, but I wasn't a great cadet. I just. My tack wasn't the enemy, but he wasn't an ally either. He just was kind of a third party that I operated around. And so I just did my job and went to class and got my 2.0 and Cs, got degrees and I was going to move out where. Where I sort of changed as a cadet was in a summer detail called Drill Cadet Leader training, which we don't do it anymore. And I don't know why, but it's surprising how many graduates I've talked to who did it and say it was an incredible experience for them. And so what used to do is send cadets to basic training, and they would augment drill sergeants. And so I had one, two, three drill sergeants, and I was sort of the fourth. I wasn't a drill sergeant, but I was the fourth to help. And so. So that was going into my cal year. So, right. I was a plebe, didn't know anything. I was a yearling who was just glad not to be a plebe. I was the typical yuck. You know, I was probably the picture in the definition, you know. And then I went there, and those drill sergeants believed in me. And I realized I could do it. Like, I could get in front of soldiers, and I knew what to do. And so I. I gained a confidence in West Point that, okay, West Point taught me everything to do. Like, I get this. And then I gained a confidence that not only could I do what West Point taught me, but I. I had sort of the agility in my mind to figure things out, you know, and it just started making sense to me, you know, like, okay, well, I'll go to the manual. I'll read it or whatever. And so I came back a much better cadet. It was a little late, right? You know, I'm halfway through, and the ship hadn't set sail, but it was definitely loaded with. With. With enough equipment that there was a little. Just enough room for me, right. But not enough room to grow. And so I kind of left there thinking, well, I left West Point, okay, I'll be a good officer. I'll be a decent officer, you know, but I'm going to get out and, you know, Commandant Nick. No, I'm never gonna be the commandant. That all being said, I love my job. I feel blessed that I'm the commandant that people saw in me, entrusted me, the leadership of the army, trusted me to come back here and interact, develop, be a role model for cadets to make tough decisions. You know, I'm blessed beyond words to be here, so I'm very excited about it. Wouldn't change a thing.
• 32:16
  Speaker C: Fantastic, Sir. Was there anything in particular that brought you back as a BSNL instructor?
• 32:21
  Speaker A: Well, no. I got a C minus in PL300, and I'm sure my instructor Thought I was not a very smart cadet. He was a genius. And there's actually an award named after him. He passed away, actually, while I was a cadet and I learned how. You didn't know. I didn't realize how smart he was and how much he really cared. I mean, just had very high standards and he held you to him. So I thought, I'll never go to, to bsnl. And then I got an email when I was deployed that said, hey, you know, we thought you'd be. You got recommended. You'd be really good in bsnl. But I was deployed and I wasn't leaving my guys. I mean, we just got to Baghdad had just fallen in 2003. I said, hey, thanks. It's just, I'm not leaving, you know, like, you know, I can I do this in another year. They said, no, the timing won't work out. And so I thought, I thought the, the opportunity had passed. And then I got a call when I was a Brigade xo. So I, I taught at West Point at a real odd time. I, I taught here and then went to squadron command as lieutenant colonel. Most junior faculty rotators come here after company command and then go on to CGSC and to be an S3XO in a battalion. And so I was sort of on the backside of that. And a former boss, Burger General, retired, Bernie Banks, who I had worked for, said, hey, you know, I saw your name and, you know, I really think you'd be really good for, for the department. And you already have a master's degree, which I'd earned through another opportunity. And my, you know, I said, well, let me check with my wife. And I. All I said was West Point. And she's like, yes, we're going there. Because I deployed a lot and was pretty busy. And she want. She thought it'd be good for our family. And it was. And so that's how I got to bsnl. I thought if I was ever going to teach anywhere, maybe in the Civil engineering department, but that's if they had really got to the, the bottom of my cohort, because, like I said, I got through civil engineering and I passed my Fundamentals of Engineering exam, and I never looked at it again. So that's how I got to bsnl. And I'll tell you, I loved every day there. It made me a better officer. Pro tip, cadets, you push your instructors really hard, right? I mean, one of the hardest things I've done in my career is get up in front of 20 skeptical cadets and take on the challenge Demonstrate the courage to your earlier question to prove a leadership philosophy. And some, some cadets, all cadets are really smart. And so you got to, you got to have your A game every day. And so I feel blessed to have done that and to have that opportunity and done it so fantastic, sir.
• 34:39
  Speaker C: It seems like it all worked out for the best.
• 34:41
  Speaker A: It worked out for the best. Yeah, it did, no doubt, sir.
• 34:44
  Speaker C: So all those questions were specifically tailored to you and your experience. But we have one question at the end that we ask every guest that's on the five Questions for a Jones podcast. Knowing what you know now, with all your experiences, what advice would you give?
• 34:57
  Speaker A: That's a great question. I think what I've learned across 29 years in the army and through my time at West Point that I didn't quite appreciate is that it's all about people. And I probably figured that out around the 10 year, 11 year mark in the Army. And that's not a criticism of our Army. Our army was trying to tell me that, and I didn't quite figure the lesson out. It is really all about people. And that's not to say that it's making life easy for people. We do something that is very difficult physically, morally, and it takes a lot of judgment and it takes a lot of effort to do to be really good at being a soldier in the United States Army. And if you can understand the people part of it, the relationships which I talked about, the three things, right? Take care of your people, take care of your equipment, make sure they're trained and ready. Two of those are really about the people, right? Take care of them and make sure they're trained and ready. And if you can do that, you will be successful at anything.
• 36:05
  Speaker C: Yes, sir.
• 36:05
  Speaker A: You'll be successful in the Army. You'll be successful as a parent and as a spouse. You'll be successful after the army, in a boardroom or in an operating room or in a courtroom. You really got to understand it's all about people and connections and relationships. It doesn't mean you can get rid of the standard. It doesn't mean that you can take shortcuts. It just means that you've got to make sure everyone understands what's going on, that you communicate goals, mission, purpose, intent. You can communicate a vision. You can hear their concerns about accomplishing the vision, the mission, the goals, the purpose, the end state. And if you can do that in all facets of their professional and personal lives, right, as a soldier, you'll be successful.
• 36:52
  Speaker C: General Garcia, thank you for sharing your time with us today for the great discussion on leader development. On behalf of Colonel Pat Sullivan, the director of MWI, and Dr. Charlie Feint, the director of this podcast series, I'd like to present you with this rare and coveted MWI coin as a token of our appreciation.
• 37:06
  Speaker A: Well, I really appreciate Sebastian. Thank you guys for having me. And I've really enjoyed my time talking to you. Good luck to you.
• 37:11
  Speaker C: Thank you, sir.
• 37:15
  Speaker B: This has been an episode of Five Questions for a General, a production of the Modern War Institute of West Point. If you like what you heard today, please download like, subscribe and share this podcast to help us reach an even larger audience. All statements in this podcast represent the personal views of the speakers and do not represent an official position of the United States Military Academy or the United States government.