Latest / The Right Time with Bomani Jones / How the NFL & ESPN DESTROYED Baseball, Boxing & Tennis

Transcript

How the NFL & ESPN DESTROYED Baseball, Boxing & Tennis · The Right Time with Bomani Jones

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the right time. A wave original.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: My name is Beaumont Jones. Thanks for listening wherever you
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: get your podcast. Thanks for watching us on YouTube. Subscribe, like,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: a hater. It is Howard Bryant Friday. Howard Bryant, what's
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: going on, man?
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: What's up, Beaumont Jones? How are you doing?
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Hey, man, I tell you this. I was over here
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: at the house hanging out with my brother and another buddy.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: And one of them popped up with words that you
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: want to hear, which is Howard Bryant is writing a
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: book on Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: It is true. It is true. But we got to
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: wait till January. That's the thing about books, man. I
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: love the instant gratification of writing on the daily. If
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: you write today, it comes out tomorrow. You write today,
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: it's coming out January 20th. But yes, very fun book.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: A lot to talk about there one day.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: I think this part we can't talk about before we
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: get to January. And this is something that we discussed
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: out there with my buddies that came over, which is
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: the magnitude of Paul Robeson as an American figure and
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: the magnitude of Jackie Robinson. I wonder what the inflection
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: point is at what age that you have to start explaining. Oh,
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: wait a minute.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: No, no, no.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: Like Robeson. I feel like somebody my age might actually
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: be an outlier for understanding the magnitude of Robinson. But
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: Jackie Robinson, no. But you fast forward just a couple
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: of years past me, and it's kind of like the
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: declining significance of Jackie Robinson has kicked in.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: It's the problem of the book. It was like, okay,
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: when you work on history, it's like, how many people
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: know what you're talking about? I said to Spike Lee,
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: I said, hey, Spike, you know, you might be the
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: most important figure in the history of Malcolm X. Because
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: in 1985, Malcolm X had only been dead 20 years,
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: but his entire narrative had been controlled by white America.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: He hadn't really been claimed by black people yet. So
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: Spike with the movie and the merch and the time
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: period and all of it completely reclaimed Malcolm for black people.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: And Paul Robeson never got that. People don't know who
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: he is. And so, as I say, you know, it's,
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: you know, as I always think about throughout this whole thing,
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: it's our job to rediscover our own people.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: And he might have been literally. The coldest dude ever.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: Top to bottom cold. Whatever this is, I'm going to
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: do it.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: I can do it. Lawyer, check.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: Possibly the greatest football player of my generation. Yeah, we
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: got that. And I got the nerve to be able
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: to sing.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: Check. Stage, check. Act, check. Broadway, check. Movies, check. What
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: you got? What else you got? Check, check, check, check, check.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: Highly dignified that's the other part too like i get
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: tired of white people uh talking about black men of
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: that era and talking about their pride and all that
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: stuff about them because it like why did they have
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: to demonstrate this so much however you look at paul
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: robeson to be like man that cat is dignified right there.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: That's right and that all comes from from growing up
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: in princeton new jersey's like i am not going to
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: be on my knees for nobody neither was my father
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: and neither will i And we'll just let the chips
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: fall and the chips fell.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: Now with he and Robinson, it ties in a degree
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: to what we want to talk about here. For those
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: of you who are just jumping in, we got a list,
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: the right time, top 25 athletes of the last 25 years,
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: 25 for the 25 in 2025. You see what I'm saying?
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: We're doing the whole thing. We got that set up
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: for y'all. Check it out. We are 15 in, or
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: we are 10 in, we have gone, from 16 to 25,
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: one through 15 are still to come out. So be
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: sure to check that out. Monday, we will give you
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: five more on that list. And what we're doing is
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: we're going through the numbers and going through the list,
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: but then also so I can live with myself and
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: not just entirely feel like this is engagement farming, which
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: is kind of what we're doing here. Um, you know,
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: let's talk about homies. We try to give y'all content,
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: but content ain't there. I, I, I did this for
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: you because y'all love this stuff. But anyway, um, What
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: I'd like to do and what we are doing, which
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: I think has been enjoyable in this, is just offering
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: some context of the time rather than getting into something
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: about bickering the order of the list or whatever. But
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: for the context of the time, I want to talk
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: to Howard now about two of the sports that are
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: at the top of his wheelhouse, baseball and tennis, which
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: is to say 25 years ago, the role that they
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: played in the public sporting consciousness was I feel was
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: completely different than it is right now. The biggest stars
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: in those sports were big stars on the same levels
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: as the biggest basketball players, the biggest football players. And
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: hockey also fits in this category also, though. Only the
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: super-duper-duper hockey stars were national stars, but it did exist
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: in that way. And now you fast-forward 25 years, and
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: I was watching the Wimbledon final, Alcaraz and Senna, And
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: they showed Chris Everett in the box with Stefan Edberg.
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: And I was like, hey, Stefan Edberg was a really,
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: really big deal for being a consistent top five tennis player.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: From Sweden, serving volley dudes. We're not talking about somebody
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: that like jumped off the screen athletically for you. But
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: he was that guy. The number four tennis player in
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: the world doesn't get that anymore.
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: And the number four tennis player in the world is
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: American and still doesn't get it. I mean, it's a
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: whole different thing. I am interested in your theory before
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: I leap into this, though, because I have my own
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: theories on what's happening. But obviously, the entire idea of
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: fame is such a fascinating concept unto itself. It all
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: depends on how old you are, like everything else. At
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: what point in the river did you enter, right? I mean,
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: for me, fame... was one of the most difficult things
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: to achieve because the avenues to access were so narrow.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: Like when I was growing up, you had three networks, three.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: You know how famous you had to be to break
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: that chain? There are people here making $ 20 million a
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: year I've never heard of because there is so much
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: opportunity now. There are so many access points that you
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: might not know who these folks are and they're loaded.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: Whereas back then, because it was only three networks, if
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: you got on one of those three networks, if you
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: got on The Tonight Show, if you got on something
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: like that, the entire country knew who you were. It's
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: a totally different dynamic.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: So I'm going to look at tennis and baseball through
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: similar lenses, but a bit different. Because also, we could
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: throw boxing in this category.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: And horse racing.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: Right. Horse racing. I feel like horse racing is like
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: two generations up.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: A big fight in the 1980s and even through the 90s.
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: And I even say through the two, like the aughts
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: of the 21st century.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: I think that like the biggest boxers were huge stars
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: still in a way that I don't necessarily think is
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: the case right now. Now, boxing comes with its own situation.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: And some of this, of course, is just the evolving
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: trends and tastes of a society.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So, for example, with baseball, baseball is a It was
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: a big city professional sport. I think that's a very
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: important part of it. Big city, played in summer at
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: a time and in cities where you could go outside
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: during the summer. It was tolerable. I think it is
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: associated with the fall from winter. The idea of spring
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: training means something completely different to people who are from
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: the north than people who are from the south because
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: the idea of spring means something different. So you have
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: all these different things that affect, I think, the way
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: that we view these sports. With tennis, I think a
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: big part of it is right there. The avenues of
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: access to this and the fact that tennis was a sport.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, on the three channels, I think of NBC
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: and CBS for the U.S. Open and NBC. So like
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: the idea of like the tradition at breakfast of breakfast
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: at Wimbledon, which is ESPN has recently co-opted. but it
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: is like many other things like the nicknames queen of
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: soul and godfather of soul back in the day these
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: things were not created organically these things were created by
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: marketers right the marketers for nbc and selling wimbledon came
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: up with that the godfather of soul all every every
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: one of these nicknames that you see one of these
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: musicians has somebody at the record company came up with
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: it but but it gets drilled home to you over
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: and over again and then it begins to start feeling
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  Speaker 1: like tradition and so with tennis We didn't have that
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: many things that came around. And so when Wimbledon comes around,
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  Speaker 1: that's the one that really jumps out. It was an occasion.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: It was like a tent pole on your calendar. It
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: comes on on Saturday morning, right? You're not doing anything else.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: It's Sunday morning for those championships. You get up and
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: you watch them. Then couple that with, and I think
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: this is a huge one for these people of my generation,
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: the declining significance of SportsCenter. I found that I started
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: knowing a lot less about what was going on on
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: a regular basis in baseball, in those sports, when I
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: stopped watching 30 to 60 minutes of SportsCenter a day.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: I knew who everybody was. When I talked to my
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: friends who are SportsCenter anchors, they know who everybody is.
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: When I talked to my friends who aren't SportsCenter anchors,
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: they don't know who none of these people are.
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: Well, and it all comes down to... a couple of things.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: Number one, it's where do you get your information? Like
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: and what how routinely do you get your information is
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: you have a breakdown of routine, right? Routine is usually
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: where you get everything. And once you run out of routine,
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: you realize that things aren't that important. Like things just disappear.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: Things don't matter. And also that you have a list
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: of sports that are reliant on those types of programs
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: where you're going to get a snippet of something every
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: single day. Now you can go weeks without getting any
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: of that. And you can go a very long time
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: without having to engage with sports you don't immediately take
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: an interest in. Like how did we like reach these
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: different spots in the river? How did you become a
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: How did you know who Stefan Edberg was? You didn't
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: wake up as a tennis fan, right? Like, where does
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: it all come from? Some of that osmosis. And, you know,
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: let's face it. This is one of the reasons why
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: it drives me crazy when people talk about the business
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: just pivoting. No, the business is pivoting because American capitalists love, love,
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: love to make it seem like there's no such thing
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: as a problem. No, no, no. This isn't pivoting. This
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: is collapsing. Your industries are collapsing. They're collapsing right in
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: front of you. There's no room for tennis. There's no
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: room for horse racing. There's a little bit of room
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: for golf. It's a football world. And so now you
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: start to determine, okay, what's going to get your time
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: when you talk about fame? And you go, oh, well,
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: how come we don't pay as much attention to this person?
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: Or how come this person was bigger back when I was... Well,
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: because there was more room for everybody. And now there's
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: no room for anybody. And so... And it's not necessarily
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: a money question because as we know, if there's one
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: thing we do know, there's plenty of money in this country.
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: It is not a money question. Your interest is being
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: steered by extremely powerful corporate entities to push you into
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: a given direction. And when you give to this, you
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: take from that and you start seeing what goes by
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: the wayside.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: And I think That point is very interesting because I
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: think that we often throw out red herrings as to
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: why things have changed the way they have. For example,
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: I do like I think in boxing, the American presence
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: for American viewers does matter because boxing interest is a
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: bit more tribal in that sort of way. Right.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: Like you and I are very interesting in this point.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: We're very interesting because there is in for boxing specifically. Right.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: Which is why I didn't mean to cut you off,
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: but I felt I needed to there. is because is
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: there any other sport that you can think of where
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: the 12-year gap between you and me in ages is
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: more significant than boxing? No. No.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: There's none.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: There's none.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: And I still got a pretty good boxing era, right?
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: But no, it is– And you got the middleweights, but
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: you were a little kid. Tyson got the middleweights, and
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: the 90s at least gave us another generation. To me,
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: the end of the big heavyweight fight, the last giant
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: heavyweight fight for me, and this one barely even counts really,
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson in Memphis in 2003 is kind
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: of the last heavyweight fight.
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: Didn't we watch that together?
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: No, not me.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: Okay. Okay. I could have sworn I was watching for
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: a big fight, but go ahead, I digress, go on.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: No, but with boxing, the American part matters. I don't
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: think that matters as much with tennis, for example, right? Like,
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: for example- Yvonne Lendl, really famous in the United States.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: We could go through a slew of these other tennis players,
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: really famous in the United States. And yes, there were
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: some Americans that popped up in the 90s with Sampras
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: and Agassi. And so you have guys, but Bjorn Borg, really,
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: really famous. We could go through a list of other
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: guys from these other countries and be like, no, no, no,
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: that was not the impediment. Now, we just had a
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: run of three great tennis players, none of whom were American,
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: but probably the best top three there's ever been. Playing
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: tennis at a time where you end up with a
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: plausible argument that either of those three could be the
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: greatest player of all time, depending on what metric you
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: decided to use. And I think overwhelmingly people are aware,
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: but don't quite. And I don't think that's strictly about
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: the fact that they're not from America. I think that's
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: much more in line with what you talk about, which
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: is the money is not in line with giving you
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: a healthy dose of tennis regularly so that you care
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: about it in that way.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: Do you believe, Bomani Jones, that if you give them
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: something to watch, they'll watch it? Or do you have
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: to create interest?
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: I think that at least it used to be. Now
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: this is crazy when you got 200 channels plus the
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: streamers and everything else. But I was thinking the other
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: night about the Black Widow. You remember the Black Widow,
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: the Asian lady that used to play pool?
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: Dude, we all know who she is because it was on.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: It's not like we were a bunch of people interested.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: We were like, ooh, who's that playing pool?
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: And what are you talking about there? That's right. What
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: are you talking about there? There was a show... called
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: Wide World of Sports that had a whole bunch of
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: stuff on there you were never going to see. You had,
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: remember the king in his court, the dude who played
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: the fast pitch softball, he was on there. Then you had,
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: you know, the downhill skiing and it wasn't an Olympic year,
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: it was weekly. So, you know, live from Kitzbühel, you know,
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: you're watching, you know, you're watching all of these different sports.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: And now, once again, it's all been swallowed whole by
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: football and there's no room for anything else. And I
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: think that what's really fascinating about this when you're talking
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: about just fame in general, is those guys were more
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: famous then, and there's way more access now. That metric
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: doesn't always work for every sport. For tennis specifically, you
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: gotta go into the 70s and early 80s. And the
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: reason was because Americans dominated the sport. It's fascinating to
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: me that tennis was bigger, more popular, than in the
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: 70s and the 80s than it is right now, or
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: than it is with Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic. But none
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: of those, as you were saying, none of them are American.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: And there's that American tennis, especially on the men's side,
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: is so beaten down. When I was a kid, you
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: could mention Arthur Ashe, John McEnroe, Jimmy Connors, Agassi. You
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: could name Americans, and it is true, Americans. If American's
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: not in it, he's not going to watch. But looking
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: at the way the game is played right now and
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: how good you have to be, being good in tennis
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: is nowhere near enough. You don't even, you know, otherwise
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: there'd be no question there'd be a tennis boom right now.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: But it has nothing to do with the popularity of
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: the sport. You can't tell me these guys aren't charismatic.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: You can't tell me they're not great players. And they
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: speak English. And I was going to say, and they
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: all also speak English. That was the other point I
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: was going to get to when we talk about baseball.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: The things you have to have. And they're all good
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: looking guys, right? It's not like they're not telegenic. It's
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: not like they need translators every time they speak. They're
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: not American. And in a game now, who are you
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: competing with? Why is there a serve clock in tennis?
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: Because TV is like, your time is up. Let's go,
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: let's go, let's go, let's go. There's no room. You know,
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: there's no room for anything right now. And the problem
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: is there's plenty of room for everything if you allow
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: it to be.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: I think the interesting question also gets us to it.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: I hadn't thought about this, but I have not seen
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: as much. I'm sure that this has been a broader
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: discussion in worlds in which you inhabit in ways that
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: I do not. But the fact that there aren't Americans
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: at that level is kind of crazy when you think
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: about it.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad you brought this up because the men
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: in tennis... Let's not talk about the women, okay? The
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: women require a different conversation. No man has won a
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: major final in tennis. No American man since Roddick in
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: 2003 U.S. Open. No man had won, had even reached
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: a final after Roddick in 2009 when he lost to
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: Federer at Wimbledon. Taylor Fritz when he lost last year.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: That's three finalists. in a quarter century, three. You haven't
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: had an American world number one in 20 years, right?
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: I mean, the game, and the thing about it is
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: the reason why this is important is that this is
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: not that different from the Canadian arguments and the black
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: basketball argument, which is all black people in basketball. We
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: know that in terms of ownership, that game belongs to us, right?
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: But does it? Giannis and Jokic and everybody else. Tennis
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: is an American game. Tennis is dominated. by Australians and
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: by Americans. Three quarters of the sport, its major sports,
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: its major tournaments are English speaking, right? You have to
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: be good at this, but yet Americans aren't. And it's
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: been willing to be sacrificed in a way that you
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: don't see in the other sports. When Black people do
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: not win at basketball, there is outrage. When Canadians do
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: not win at hockey, there is outrage. But this sport,
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: you know, we gave this one up. And the argument
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: had been that, well, we don't get, as we being
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: tennis players, we don't get the best American athlete. So
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: we don't get our Michael Jordans. We don't get... our,
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: you know, Kobe Bryants. We don't get those, you know,
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: those go to the NBA and those go to the NFL.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: Imagine how good American tennis would be if we got
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: the top American athletes. And to that, I say, yeah,
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: but when did we ever? Dr. J wasn't playing tennis.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: You know, I mean, so that argument, it has never existed,
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: but it's a good argument to make in terms of
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: finished athletes and who's, you know, which country is getting
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: your best and tennis has never gotten America's best, all
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: good arguments. But tennis has never produced that. So it's
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: something else.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: Well, I think it also raised an interesting question. And
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: I think the basketball argument and what we're seeing happen
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: with certain European players is in line with this, which is,
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: I hear this discussion a lot more in soccer. Americans
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: vastly overrate athleticism or just raw athletic ability rather than
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: the finer detail type of skills, the hand-eye coordination, the
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: importance of Acceleration, deceleration, like the ability to move shuttle stuff,
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: like short space movement. The things that make somebody like
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: Luka Doncic and, by the way, somebody like James Harden,
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: the things that make somebody like that excellent, the things
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: that make somebody like Luka Doncic, I mean, Nikola Jokic
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: or Larry Bird is another person that fits this description.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: Like being able to jump out of the gym has
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: value in places, but being really good at basketball, is
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: the part that matters. Now, tennis to me also becomes
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: interesting because it is at once the sport that has
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: changed the most and changed the least. And I say
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: changed the least in the sense that the court is
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: the court is the court is the court. It is
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: the court. As long as I can think of, the
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: court has not changed.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: Like the actual rules of playing tennis is that well,
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: like the surfaces.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: But I mean, like the measurements.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: Yes. Oh, yeah. It's the same. Yeah. Yeah.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: The dynamic of tennis is the same. What has changed, obviously,
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: is the equipment.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: And beating the dog shit out of the ball became
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: a whole different game, but also created. I think we
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: would generally agree on less interesting sport because it was
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: a sport that and you correct me if I'm wrong,
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: if I'm from the coming from too much of a distance.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: But where there was there's there's less stylistic variation at
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: this point than there was before the racket changed.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: Thousand percent. Thousand percent. Not just the rackets, but the
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: surfaces have changed. So the grass is different now than
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: it was when I was growing up, right? The services
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: have become so homogenized that the real anomaly is grass.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: Like you had to, you know, you had different champions
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: in some of these services. That's why, look at the
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: clay champions before Nadal. You had a whole bunch of
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: dudes up there winning that one. Why? Because clay was different.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: Thomas Booster. Exactly, right? Tom, I mean, Sampras never even
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: got to a French Open final. you know, never even
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: got there. And so here's a guy who won 14 majors,
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: but not on that surface, never even got to a final.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: Venus Williams never, you know, got to one against her sister,
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: but Venus didn't win on clay. And so, but when
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: you got to grass, that was your ass, right? When
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: you went up against them on that surface, and it
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: was only two weeks later, but a totally different surface.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: And so all of these different things do affect sort
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: of who becomes great. But I think that in terms
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: of fame, like when you're really thinking about great players
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: and why, why does it stick here and why doesn't
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: it stick there? It really does to me come down
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: to if you give them something to watch, and this
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: is obviously something that the WNBA is going to talk
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: about in their labor negotiations. If you give them something
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: to watch, they will watch it. That's why I was
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: asking you about this, you know, how you felt and like, okay,
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: you know, if, The more women's basketball you watch, the
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: more women's basketball we're going to know, or you can't,
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: that doesn't stick. Some sports stick and some sports don't.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: I just tend to think that you create the market
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: that you want. And I think that so much of
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: what we have here is a fundamental creation of the
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: world you want to be.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: Also with tennis, and we're going to get to a
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: lot more baseball in just a few. But with tennis,
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: when I was younger, like during summers in Houston, so
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: we would have a very limited window where we could
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: do this. But it's me and my brother waking up
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: as early as we possibly could at an age where
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: it was hard for me to wake up early in
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: the morning and at a time in his life where
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: it was hard for him to. get your ass up
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: and we go out there and we play a couple
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: sets of tennis.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: And go hit.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: Like people played tennis in a much different way. Regular people,
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: when they got tennis lessons. Well, they play more now.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: And that's the thing. That's the beauty of the sport,
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: which is why I find it so fascinating about what
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: sticks and what doesn't, is that there are two sports
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: that are almost equally watching and playing sports. Tennis and basketball.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: Interesting, because I don't see as many tennis. I don't know.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: You're from Atlanta. But see, that's what I'm saying. But
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: what's funny is the people I do know who play
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: tennis play.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: Play tennis. I mean, Atlanta is the number, I think
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: it's number one, even bigger than Los Angeles and New
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: York in terms of per capita USTA membership. Atlanta is
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: tennis central. That Atlanta tournament, the 250, I think it's,
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: they don't even play that Atlanta anymore. It should be
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: right after, it should be now. But I know they're
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: in D.C. I don't know if the Atlanta tournament exists anymore.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: But that tournament was huge and multiracial. It wasn't like, oh,
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: this is just a little country club sport where they go,
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: you know, play off in a way. Tennis is dominated
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: by the middle class down in a lot of these
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: different places. And I just what I find to be
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: so fascinating about about this sport specifically is its ties
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: to money, its ties to the country club idea and
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: all of that. But when you talk about fame too,
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: you had to win to earn back then. You don't
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: got to win to earn. Like you look at Jimmy Conn,
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: they were playing 80, 90 matches a year because they
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: didn't make any money. Today, you win one major, you
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: get $ 3 million. You set. You know, you don't have
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: to go run the calendar and go run yourself crazy. Whereas,
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: you know, back in the day when those guys were playing,
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: they were playing every single week. You saw them. They
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: were on the, you know, one thing we didn't talk about.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: It was a more literate society. Cover of Sports Illustrated.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: That was the same as being on The Tonight Show.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: You made the cover of Sports Illustrated. Everybody knew who
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: you were. What is the equivalent today? What is the
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: fame equivalent? What is the fame quotient where if you
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: get this, you get that? Right? I mean, that's what
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: I mean about that level of fame. Think about if
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: you were a comedian and Johnny Carson put you on. Like,
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: where are the equivalents? Even in the last 25 years,
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: that equivalent, I don't think it exists anymore. Like, which
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: one is it? Like, what do you have to have
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: in order to make your career?
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: Well, you hit one of the more distressing questions. It
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: applies to my line of work and others, which is
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: being good. How much does that really matter?
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: Like, think about how many things that are out there. Like,
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: if you think about podcasting, for example, people can tell
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: you the biggest podcast. And when you think in your head,
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: I don't need to call any names out. You think
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: in your head about what the biggest and most famous
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: podcasts are. How many of them are big and famous
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: for being good? Like, I'll ask you how big a
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: podcast is. But the people who tell me about it
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: are never telling me how good it is.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: Well, it's the same as books.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: They're telling me how.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: Big it is. Well, that's right. It's the same as
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: books now. I mean, when I look at the New
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: York Times bestseller list, the first thing I look at
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: is how many of these people in the nonfiction list,
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: how many of them write as a primary occupation? They're
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: all celebrities. They're all just famous for something else.
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: And so that's really where the currency is. But once again,
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: who's creating this? Does this have to be like this?
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: Or is this the way that it's been chosen to be?
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: And so I think that once again, when you start
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: looking at why certain people get certain things, it was
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: so much more a, I'm not going to say meritocracy,
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: because who knows? I mean, the puppet masters have been
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: controlling us for some time now, right? It's just there's
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: more to control and now less to control. But when
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking about why did I fall in love with tennis,
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: it was exactly what you said. And it was breakfast
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: at Wimbledon. But before that, it was NBC, the French
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: Open in the morning, you know, a month earlier, because
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: it was so weird watching them play tennis on dirt.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: We don't have clay courts in Boston. We don't have
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: clay courts. It's a clay court. Right. Which, by the way,
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: is also why American players aren't as good, because. Americans
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: are hardcore players, and you've got to learn how to
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: play on clay now. So big serve, big forehand, can't
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: play D, Americans, they just get whooped after the first week.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: And so all of those things, that level of exposure
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: just changes everything. And the power of ESPN is really
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: like one of the big deals because once that whole
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: wide world of sports thing that they inherited from ABC–
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: When that began to disappear, you began to lose sight.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: And suddenly every other sport was, well, if it's not
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: Olympic year, I'm not watching it. You used to get
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: a taste of everything. All right.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: Put a pin in that thought. We're going to come
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: back in just a couple because there is a place
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: where ESPN, I think, becomes a very interesting point of
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: discussion when it comes. to baseball. And I'll tell you
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: what that is coming up next. All right. We are
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: back with Howard Bryant. We talked a lot about the
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: role in place that tennis plays in our society and
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: how that's changed in the last 25 years. And I
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: think one of the more stark examples where we can
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: feel the change is in baseball. Um, And of course,
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: a lot of things we talked about before, English speakers
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: and the likes, they come into play. But this, I think,
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: is the big one. Now, you have made the point
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: about the corporations and where they are sending our eyeballs
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: and our interest and how that affects all these other things.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: Baseball is interesting because a clear decision was made around
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: ESPN maybe about 15 years ago where somebody looked at
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: the numbers and said, hey, man, We start talking about baseball.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: People start changing the channel. So we're not really going
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: to do that no more. It could be the World Series.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: It's not happening.
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: And the rest of us and us being people who
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: do the kind of work that I do, we kind
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: of follow suit because why would you talk about something
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: that people don't talk about? But on the other side
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: of it, people will tell you local baseball ratings and attendance.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: All those numbers are good, which is to say there
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: is still an interest in baseball, but it is a
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: poor national talker. It is a sport that was at
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: its height. And I don't know how many people make
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: this connection. And maybe I'm wrong. You let me know.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: That is a sport that was very well served when
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: the center of the sports consumers news existence was the
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: local newspaper and the local newspaper did the job. You
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: can't pay attention to 30 baseball teams at one time
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: in a way you could pay attention to 32 football teams.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: but a way you can pay attention to 30 basketball teams. Baseball,
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: you watch your team and your league, and you watch
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: that team, 162 games going all around the circuit. And
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: by the time the year was over, you knew every
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: team there was in that league. You knew everybody's bullpen,
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: all of that stuff. All it took was a couple
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: three-game series, and you would then be caught up. As
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: the sports consumer became a national sports consumer, the interest
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: in baseball by the people who aren't all the way
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: into baseball increased.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: That fell.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: And then as a result, we're in a place where
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: we have seen some of the greatest baseball players ever
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: to walk in the last 15 years. Mike Trout's a
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: great example. Otani, of course, right now jumps off the page.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: And Otani, I think, is famous as an idea, but
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: not famous as a person. And that's not just because
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: of the Japanese factor. Ichiro felt more famous than he did.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: Hideo Nomo, when it first got started. felt more famous
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: than he does. And I think that's really as ESPN
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: became the, the operation that dictated everybody's coverage, even the
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: networks that compete with them. Baseball is the biggest loser
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: in terms of how we view its biggest teams and
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: its biggest stars.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: A hundred percent. And, and I'll throw a couple of
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: other points out there, but you're right. And I think
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: you and I have talked about this over, over the years. Um, 2018,
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: maybe 2017, somewhere in there. I'm at spring training. And,
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: you know, when you live in Massachusetts, you just don't
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: have the same type of, uh, we don't like colors
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: out here. Right. It's very drab place when it comes
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: to shopping, when it comes to clothes. So you're always
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: going to go shopping when you're out there on the
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: West coast, um, out West. So I go to Nordstrom,
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: to go buy some clothes at Spring Train up in
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: Fashion Center in Scottsdale. And I'm sitting there looking for
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: some shoes and looking for some stuff, whatever I forgot,
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: whatever I wanted to get. And who's walking through the
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: mall but Mike Trout? He might as well have been
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: somebody's daddy. Just nobody spoke to him. Nobody looked at him.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: And it wasn't like New York, like, oh, there's somebody famous,
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: but we're New Yorkers, so we're just going to act chill,
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: but we see him. We see you. Nobody knew who
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: he was. Nobody even gave a little side there and said,
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: let me go get a little side photo. They didn't
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: know who he was. And this is in spring training
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: in Arizona. And Mike Trout at that time is winning
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: back-to-back MVPs and people are comparing him to Willie Mays.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: That he's quite possibly the greatest baseball player who ever played. Right?
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, We're not just saying, oh, yeah, he's the
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: best player in the game. You got to remember who
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: Mike Trout was back then.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: He's the evolution of Ricky Henderson.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: Exactly. They were comparing him. He was like LeBron James.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: The reason why you talk about LeBron James being that good,
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: I don't know where you find him in terms of that.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: But for me, when I first saw LeBron James play
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: in 2003, the first thing that hit me was he's
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: got the size of magic. He's got the strength of Chamberlain.
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: He's got the speed of Isaiah. He's got the court
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: vision of bird and magic, right? He's got the aerial
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: game of Jordan, right? He's the composite. He's the most
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: devastating physical basketball specimen ever. That's what they were saying
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: about Mike Trout, you know? He's got the speed of
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: Mantle and Mays. He's got the power of Bonds and
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: Aaron and those guys and McGuire. You know, he's got
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: he can run the bases, not like Ricky, but he's
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: got Ricky like speed. You know, he's he's the guy.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: He's everything. And baseball made a decision to be a
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: regional sport. I have always questioned this and I don't
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: and I'm not saying I question it because I'm right.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: I'm saying maybe they just looked like looked at the
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: numbers and said we can't win that every all the
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: factors that you're talking about. We can't win. People don't
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: consume this product the way they used to. There were
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: national stars in the 70s. There were national stars in
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: the 80s. You know, if somebody said to me today,
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: who's the most famous baseball player? Not who's the best
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: baseball player. Who's the most famous, recognizable baseball player? I
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: don't know. Maybe it's Otani. But when we talk about fame,
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: what are we really talking about? We're talking about Madison Avenue.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: Pete Rose is doing Aqua Velva commercials. Reggie Jackson had
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: his own candy bar. And he's doing... I'm sorry, Panasonic,
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: remember Reggie Vision? Remember those commercials? Like those guys, Ken
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: Griffey Jr. was doing Nintendo commercials in the 90s. Like
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: these guys, everybody knew them. Like you saw somebody's face
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: in you. That's fame. And baseball doesn't have that, right?
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: And part of the reason, I believe, in my opinion,
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: is that technology has done baseball the worst disservice. Baseball
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: has been served. You get more baseball because there's more technology.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: Technology has given you everything. But in terms of scarcity,
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: scarcity creates fame, right? So if you're a baseball player
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: and you're the one who gets on one of those
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: three networks, or if you're the game of the week,
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: everybody's watching the same thing. They see you. Today, not
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: everybody's watching the same thing. Y'all got the baseball package.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: So that creates that sort of regionality, you know, that
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: sort of regional nature. But there's no national spot. And now,
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: you know, because baseball's got removed from baseball tonight. Baseball
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: has taken its signature product, the World Series, and has
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: refused to compete with week eight in the NFL, right?
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's the level of surrender that they've beaten us.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: But that's the other thing, right? The other thing about
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: it is that the other sports have decided two major,
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: major pieces that people really don't talk very much about
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: was there's a certain protocol. Right. We all kind of
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: had rules. Right. Now there are no more rules. And
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: the rule was that once the Stanley Cup and the
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: NBA finals were finished, the rest of the summer belonged
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: to baseball. Doesn't belong to baseball anymore. I remember when
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: I was in spring training, I remember seeing the great,
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: you know, the late, great Walt Jockety, who was the
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: GM of the Cardinals at the time, get all mad
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: at me because I worked for ESPN and Larry Barrett,
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: the giant, same thing. Mad at me. He was like,
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: what are you mad at me for? I don't make
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: the decisions. They're like, they were timing. When you turned
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: on SportsCenter, when did baseball enter the chat? It's the
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: only live sport. And baseball was averaging like 11 minutes.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: That's after like two commercial breaks. You start talking about baseball.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: They're like, we're the only game in town and we
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: can't get on. Y'all are talking about the NBA free agency.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: You're talking about coming up NFL minicamps. And baseball can't
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: compete with those soap operas. And so you start looking
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: at this when you were a kid, when I was
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: a kid, all you talked about all summer was baseball.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: You know, in addition, periodically, if you had an Olympic year,
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: if you talk, you know, tennis and you get Wimbledon
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: and whatever, there were a few things taking place in
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: the summer. But the whole damn summer belonged to baseball
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: until school started. And now baseball doesn't even control the
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: old monopoly it used to have. Changed everything.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: And it is interesting to me because as has always
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: been the case, there is something uniquely breathtaking about an
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: amazing baseball player. Like not just a guy that hits
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: a lot of home runs, right? But a, I say
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: four to five tool player. And I say that because
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: like Barry Bonds was a four tool, not a five, right?
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: Like we don't want to take away some of these people.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: of Sid Bream scoring from second base.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: I knew that left arm. Yeah, that's all it is.
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: You got a left arm problem yeah it's the only
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: one it's the it's the oh i mean look the
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: other what the other the other tools were so amazing
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: that it doesn't matter right but like you know it
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: gets to that space but did you see.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: That throw a kunya made the other day.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: For the braves yeah geez yeah.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: Okay like That is maybe the most impressive throw I've
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: ever seen, just because I didn't even think he was
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: trying to do that.
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: His back to the infield?
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: His back to the infield. I'm like, there's no way
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: he's actually trying to throw the dude out. And I
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: feel bad for the dude he threw out there. Like,
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: the problem is he didn't hustle. He didn't slide.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: Why would he?
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: Why would you think that this was a necessary thing
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: to do? The third baseman didn't actually think the ball
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: was coming. But there's something about a guy that could
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: do that. Because to me, the combination of skills that
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: makes you that type of baseball player is so few
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: of them have anything to actually do with each other.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: And if you can put them all together, like, think
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: about it. What are you good at? I can see
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: a ball start coming from 300 feet away and immediately
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: figure out where I need to run in order to
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: get the ball. And then when I do, I can
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: stop and I can flang that motherfucker right back to
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: wherever it is that it needs to go. And then
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: I can take this stick and hit a moving ball
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: and then run. Like, none of these things have anything
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: to do with each other, but they're so, like... every
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: man is athletic you know what i mean like.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: Isn't that like isn't that's why it's so beautiful when
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: you start taking these pieces and you say okay skill
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: number one that you just brought up there's no value
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: inside of baseball right wrong that's a wide receiver skill
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: but can you throw right so it's like okay you
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: got piece one randy moss right you can go track
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: wide receiver can track jerry rice can track but once
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: you catch it can you throw it on a line
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: like clemente You know, can you throw it like Vlad?
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: Can you throw it like Acuna? Right. So you've got
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: all these different skills that you've got to put together.
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: But the ball stick one, that's the one that you've
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: got to come with on your own.
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, that hand, the ability to hit a baseball,
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: where's the equivalent? There's really not much of one.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: And it's harder to do than ever. And the guys
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: who do it excellently are less famous and visible than ever.
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: Let's talk about that, right? I mean, I think that
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: one of the big issues that you have when it
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: comes to baseball is, and I've really enjoyed this conversation
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: because so much of it has nothing to do with athletics.
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: We're talking business. You know, we're really, you know, if
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: you look for players, you're going to find them, right?
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: Baseball is a less athletic sport right now. Baseball is
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: a less... charismatic sport right now. And no disrespect to
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: Mike Trout, because, hey, man, you have a right to
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: be comfortable, right? However, you know, and I know, and
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: the American people know, Bobani Jones, that 30 years ago,
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: the Players Association would have told Mike Trout, your ass
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: is going to the Yankees. I know you like your
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: little retirement community here in Anaheim. Nobody sees you. Mike
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: Trout has been to the playoffs once. Once. 2015, oh, 2014,
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: got swept by Baltimore, right?
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: Once.
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: They would have never allowed that. Think about it. Ken
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: Griffey Jr. Ken Griffey Jr. played the majority of his
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: career in Cincinnati and Seattle. Cincinnati and Seattle? Seattle? They
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: were Nintendo and Nike. They were running Griffey for president ads.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: What are you doing in Seattle? Back then, the union
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: would have been like, look, we need our best where
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: the lights are brightest. And, you know, and Griffey got
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: criticized a little bit for that when he went to Cincinnati.
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: And we all know he's got his personal issues, why
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: he wasn't going to go to New York, but he
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: could have played for the Mets, could have played for
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: the Dodgers, could have, you know, like, but, you know,
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: when you think about those great players, they end up
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: where the lights are brightest. How much Ken Griffey Jr.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: did we get? At least Bonds. Bonds made the World
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: Series once. We saw Bonds in the playoffs. These great players,
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: you got to be on stage. This is one of
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: the reasons why I say it is harder to be
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: a great player than ever today, even though the nutrition's better,
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: even though the The opportunities are better, even though the
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: knowledge is bigger, even though there's so much more that
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: gives this, the advantages are bigger because the money is
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: so huge. You can get the visibility of a great player.
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: You can get the attention of a great player. You
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: can get the compensation of a great player without being
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: a great player. You don't have to win championships and
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: be everywhere to be loaded, set for life. And that
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: changes fame. That changes how the public sees you, how
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: they view you. Imagine how different the world is when
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: you got to win to get anything, right? I mean,
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: it creates, you know, literal hunger, right? I mean, you
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: are literally hungry. If you don't win, you don't get paid.
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: It's a totally different game. And so we pay the price.
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: And Mike Trout pays the price. Now, Mike Trout's like,
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: I didn't pay no price. I was right where I
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: wanted to be. Good for him. We paid the price.
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: Imagine being able to see him on the biggest stage.
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: That's why seeing Mookie Betts in Los Angeles is such
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: a big deal. We want to see the best when
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: the leaves change for the biggest contests. And if you
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: don't get that, everybody loses.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: And he specifically went somewhere where people just don't care
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: that much. Like, that's the thing about Mookie Betts in Boston.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: They care a lot there.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: Like, what makes the Red Sox interesting.
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: Mookie went in two places where people care, because they
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: do care in Los Angeles. Right.
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: But what makes, right, they care in Los Angeles, not
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: so much in Anaheim, at least not in the same way.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: But the thing that makes the Red Sox interesting to observe,
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: even if you don't care about them, is how much
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: the people there, like, actually care about what the program is, right? Like,
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: that is a significant thing that makes them interesting.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: There are three cities in Major League Baseball, like it
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: or not. I'm sorry, Rob Manfred, but you know it
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: to be true, right? Boston, New York, Philadelphia. Those are
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: the three cities. Maybe you can throw Chicago in there,
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: but they've done a lot of losing in the past
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: 125 years.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: Sorry, yes, Phillies too.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: The Dodgers are always good. But I'm just talking about
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: in terms of that East Coast insanity, that passion for
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: that sport. That's it's different over there. And that's why
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: some dudes, Bryce Harper, like, yeah, send me over there
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: for 13 years with no trade. And that's why some
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: other dudes are like, I'm never going to those three
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: crazy cities where they boo you on opening day when
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: there's 161 more of these things. Right. I mean, it
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: is a different thing. And that East Coast piece of
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: it is very, very real, because. As a kid growing
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: up up there watching the local news. When you saw
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: those trucks going down to Florida for spring training, you
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: knew winter was almost over. And that was baseball, and
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: that brought you to the sport. It made you care
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: about the sport in a way that you didn't care
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: about the other sports. Sports were already going on. And
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: so all of this, and when I was talking earlier
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: about technology hurting baseball, is that when you talk about fame,
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: you had to watch the all-star game as a kid.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: Because when I grew up, we had three networks. Because
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: I grew up in a place we didn't have cable
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: until 89. Hold on.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: Three networks and two entirely distinct leagues.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: And two different leagues didn't play each other. Exactly. So
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: you got to see, if you wanted to see the Dodgers,
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: if you wanted to see Fernando and Steve Garvey and,
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: you know, Hershiser and all them guys, you got the
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: all-star game, you got the game of the week, and
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: you got the World Series. And they lived in a
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: whole other universe. And when I said it covering baseball,
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: Tony La Russa used to talk about it. He would
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: be like, you know, in the other league. There was
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: no interleague back then. The other league. It was a
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: totally different place. You saw them in spring training. You
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: saw them in the All-Star game. And maybe you saw
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: them in the World Series. But now that you've got
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: interleague every single day, the specialness of all of it
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: goes away. I don't really, I think the All-Star game
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: should sort of disappear. But once again, if it's not
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: So where's your fame coming from now? If it's not
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: going to be the All-Star Game, maybe it's going to
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: be the Home Run Derby, right? I mean, so these
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: are the things that when you're talking about fame and
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: you're talking about greatness and not just greatness, but fame,
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: how do we recognize you? That's the stuff. And if
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: you don't have it, you're not getting it. You know,
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: when you think about your most famous sports commercials, like
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: all that crossover stuff, Or you think about the TV
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: shows you used to watch and Kareem showed up on
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: different strokes or whatever it was, right? Or whatever it was,
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: where are those crossover opportunities where everybody who doesn't watch
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: your sport still knows who you are? Where are those opportunities?
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: And when you ask yourself those opportunities, where do they
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: really exist? Is baseball part of it? And if baseball
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: is not part of it, then those opportunities disappear for you.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: People just aren't going to know you. And yeah, your
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: regional ratings will go up, but it's not the same
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: as everybody knowing who you are. It changes the entire
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: dynamic of fame. And that's what technology has done. There's
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: a whole bunch of super millionaires out there that none
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: of us have ever heard of because we're not watching everything.
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: It's impossible to watch everything. Right.
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: So there have been a lot of huge baseball stars
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: through the course of time. There's really only been like
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: one hockey star that ever cut through, which was Gretzky.
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: Like there was others whose names you would know. But
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: the only like Wayne Gretzky became Tiger Woods in that way.
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: Like this is the one name that everybody like. What
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: do you know about hockey? I know Wayne Gretzky may
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: not know who he plays for, may not know anything.
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: He was the name that cut through baseball. Used to
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: have all these different things that cut through. And this
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: is the question I have yet to come up with
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: an answer for. But I think about all the time.
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: you were of the age where you can remember Pete
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: Rose 44 game hitting streak. My father and my brother,
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: by the way, were in Atlanta at the stadium the
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: day that Gene Garber shut Pete Rose down and ended
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: the 44 game hitting streak where Pete Rose told him
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: to pitch to him like a man instead of throwing
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: them change-ups. And then I think he threw him another
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: change-up because Gene Garber just threw change-ups. But I remember
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: Paul Molitor had a 39 or 38 game hitting streak
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: in 1987. How long of a hitting, like, I don't
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: even know if people know about the DiMaggio hitting streak anymore.
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: How long of a hitting streak would a baseball player
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: have to have for it to be a thing that
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: America cared about, right? If somebody were to hit 400,
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: does this cut through?
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: Well, what was the last one? Wasn't it Luis Castillo?
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: Wasn't it 35 when he was at the Marlins? Yeah.
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: I think it was 35. And I was like, and
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: I remember people kind of on the down low rooting
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: against him. He can't have this record.
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: No.
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: You can have all the other records you want. You
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: can't have that one. Luis Castillo, really? You're going to
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: replace DiMaggio? A little drop in quality there? That's a
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: great question. The question is, I mean, and I think
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: for context, T.C. Sabathia, who's going into the Hall of
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: Fame next week, called me up one day in his
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: rookie year and said, Shohei Ohtani is the greatest baseball
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: player of all time. I'm like, he's been here two months.
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: He's like, he's the greatest baseball player of all time.
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: I was like, don't you want to wait a little bit?
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: And he's like, I don't need to. He's the greatest
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: baseball player of all time. And here's why. Because he's
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: doing shit at the major league level that we did
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: in little league. Nobody else can do what he's doing.
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: He's the best pitcher. At the time, he's the best
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: pitcher in the league. He's the best hitter in the league.
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: And he hits home runs too. And runs. And can run. Well,
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: they give a stolen bases away, but he can still run.
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: But I mean, seriously, he's like, nobody can do that.
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: He could literally win 20 games one year if he
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: stayed healthy to do it. And think about that. That's
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: LeBron James level. Like, seriously, like when you think about
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: that level of talent and nobody cares. I'm not saying
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: nobody cares that I'm saying because people care about Shohei Ohtani,
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: but it's he should be at that level. except for
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: the fact that, you know, he doesn't speak English and
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: he's not, you know, he's not marketing that way. You know,
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: baseball doesn't do that. And also, I don't think it
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: could work anyway. I mean, what are you going to,
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: you have to speak English in this country if you're
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: going to cross over like that. I mean, remember Sammy
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: Sosa in the late 90s doing those Pepsi commercials and
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: he would just sit at the camera and smile. That
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: ain't going to go all the way. It'll do a
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: little bit, but it's not going to do what it
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: needs to do. To answer your question, I don't even
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: know if it's going to be home runs because people
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: have been so soured by what happened. What do you
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: got to do? The record is 73. So if Aaron
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: Judge goes out there and starts threatening in 75, I
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: think people would pay attention. I think it's still home runs.
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: You got to hit the ball over the fence.
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they tried to make 62 a thing again, and
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: it don't work like that.
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: It doesn't work like that at all.
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: At all.
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: It's okay. All right. Way to go, buddy.
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: The American League record.
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: The American League record. No, no, it's 73. So, I mean, seriously,
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: if we were on September 1st and Aaron Judge had
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: 66 home runs, people would pay attention. But it would
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: take something like that.
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: That is where we are. This is Howard Bryant, my man.
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: I appreciate you, brother.
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: No, man. Thank you, as always.
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: What's the title of the book? At least let the
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: people pre-order.
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: Title of the book is called Kings and Pawns, Jackie
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: Robinson and Paul Robeson in America.
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: This man sent out the damn cover on the internet
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: and they want to get all shy when somebody got
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: questions about the book. I see how you do.
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: You know what? It's not that I'm shy. It's that
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: my brain is fried. I'm trying to get this thing done.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: You've been talking about this book for two years. Exactly.
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: When we hang up, I have to actually send another
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: edited version of the manuscript. So it's like... Oh, damn.
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: I thought we was done. No.
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: It's never done until... You'll know when it's done because
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: I'm going to send you a galley in mid-August. And
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: then once it's bound, then it's done. But right now
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: we still got pages.
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: I didn't realize you were still at it.
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: I would have approached that a whole lot differently.
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: I understand. Now I feel like I'm the jerk.
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: No, no, no. It's great. All I can tell you
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: is it's the thing that I love about this project
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: more than anything else is that, I mean, it feels
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: like today just in terms of where this country is going,
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: in terms of how we, you know, The name calling
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: and stuff is a lot of McCarthyism going on here.
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: A lot of past is prologue right now.
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: What a time.
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: What a time.
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: My brother, I greatly appreciate you.
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: Thank you, bro.
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: All right, now, and ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: for joining us here on The Right Time. We do
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: this three times a week. Ryan Brumley handling everything behind
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: the scenes. Thank you, sir. Remember, follow The Right Time. Subscribe, like,
• 55:31
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• 55:33
  Speaker 1: give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: a hater. Talk to you guys in a couple of days.
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: Take it easy.