Latest / Hook,Line,&SinkHer / Season 1 Episode 2 The One That Got Away: ADHD Myths and Misconceptions

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Season 1 Episode 2 The One That Got Away: ADHD Myths and Misconceptions · Hook,Line,&SinkHer

• Jayson St.Croix: Welcome back to Hook, Line, and Sinker, the podcast where we cast out big questions, real and honest conversations, and occasionally get distracted by whatever shiny object just floated Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Yeah. Jayson St.Croix: by. I'm your host, Jayson, and joining me, as always, is Dr. Amy St. Croix. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Good morning. How are you? Jayson St.Croix: I'm doing well. How are you doing today? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: I'm doing great. I'm doing great. Jayson St.Croix: Okay, last episode, we shared the story behind this podcast and started talking a little bit about who we are. Today we're tackling something that affects nearly everyone who lives with ADHD, misconceptions. Because if you've spent any time in classrooms, workplaces, or maybe even family gatherings, you've probably heard some version of the following. Everybody has a little ADHD. You just need to try a little bit harder. Kids these days, they just have too many distractions. And my personal favorite, have you tried using a planner? Today we are separating fact from fiction and talking about the myths that just refuse to swim away. Dr. St.Croix let's start with the obvious question. What's the biggest misconception people have about ADHD? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Well, I think there's two. Can I do two if I only really explain one? Is that Jayson St.Croix: We're just having a conversation. You can do as many as you'd like. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: I think that honestly right now what I'm seeing is because ADHD is at the forefront, right? I think that we are getting a lot of self-diagnosis and that can be a sticky wicket in our world. so I think that that is a misconception in the sense that everybody has ADHD and you sort of briefly mentioned that that you know if we become distracted or we forget about something or you know something kind of slips our mind or... I have ADHD. Or people will say, I can't focus. I'm pretty sure I have ADHD. I think that's a huge misconception because it is so much more than that. It is just so much more. So that's just my quick overlay of a misconception. But I think probably the honestly biggest misconception is really what we see or what we believe as a society is ADHD. So what I'm talking about, and I and I hate to really use this word, but I think it's accurate, is stereotypical. So when we hear about ADHD, we think about typically little boys, right? More so than little girls. They're really, really hyper. you know, they're quote unquote naughty or bad. these students usually typically are, you know, a distraction to themselves or to others. That's kind of how we see ADHD in our society. And I'm probably gonna date myself at the moment, but if anybody remembers Dennis the Menace, that's what I think our society's stereotypical belief of ADHD really is. And that's truly the biggest misconception that I think we have. Jayson St.Croix: Remember you have to tell our listeners that just because you look like you're ten doesn't mean that you're actually ten in the first episode. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: That's right, that's right. Jayson St.Croix: So you kind of led me right into this question that I have for you. what do most people get wrong about ADHD? You talked about stereotypical and self diagnosis, but what's one thing that most people probably get wrong about ADHD? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: That That you can either just simply do or not do the behaviors or the challenges that you have. So for instance, if we're talking about a student in a classroom who potentially is disruptive and gets up and walks around and, you know, disrupts their peers, people will just say, you know, you have to stay seated. You you have to. I mean, how many of us have heard the words crisscross applesauce? This is one of my biggest pet peeves when I when I go into primary classrooms, is when I hear a teacher say, sit crisscross applesauce. We have children who cannot physically sit crisscross applesauce. Their brains may say, I need to do exactly what I've been asked. I heard my teacher's direction and I need to do this. And then their body says, Nope! We're not doing this. or we can do this for two to seven seconds and then we're gone. And then, you know, this is just my own piece, but we actually have children in our classrooms who physically have impairments and cannot sit crisscross applesauce. So that's always something that I encourage teachers when I'm doing PD not to make a rule, you know, at places like circle time. if you're sitting, if you're if you're at the space and you're engaged, that's what we're looking for. So that was just my little rant. But anyway, going back to your question, I think that you know, kids really get identified as those behaviors that they have, they can control. And that's just not accurate. We can teach them strategies. to sort of rein in those behaviors or to help people function more within our in-the-box society, but you cannot always control those behaviors. Jayson St.Croix: Yeah, you talked about the primary level and with your experience, you've been you've seen the whole gamut from pre K all the way up through twelfth and my background's middle school and I would even see it in my middle school math classroom. I would get to know my kids, I would know which ones were I'm gonna use the air quotes here a little squirrely because that's what we referred to a little bit, right? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Well, you do, not me. Because I'm like that, right? So Jayson St.Croix: you're a squirrel. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: for me, it's like, I don't know. It's it's it's such a hindrance, I think, because I noticed actually when we were reviewing the first podcast, I noticed that my chair is constantly moving and yours is not. That is something when I was a child that my parents would have called me out on. They would have told me to sit still. They potentially would have told me to sit on my hands. That was a big one that happened a lot on car rides because I was just everywhere. So I like to refer to it as busy, not squirrely. Jayson St.Croix: Right. What what I was getting at is though once you get to know those kids and you've been in the classroom and you have that relationship, you know the the strategies that are gonna be successful for your students to succeed in the classroom, you just make accommodations and it could be something as easy as giving them a standing desk or sitting towards the back of the room. As long as it's not an accommodation on their IEP that they have to sit in the front, let them sit in the back where they can get up and walk around and not distract class. And that's okay. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Yeah, I mean if that student, you know, sharpens his pencil once and then she blows her nose once and, you know, they go throw out a piece of paper th three times during class, they really hurting anything? I mean Jayson St.Croix: Right. In the grand scheme of things, no. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: right. Jayson St.Croix: So thinking about that, why do people still think ADHD is just about paying attention? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Well, because I think that's what we make it out to be, right? Is that you can't focus. But it's more than that. Because when we say we can't focus, that's not one singular thing. So where that is deriving from is the inability to stay on task, right? Which comes from our executive functioning. And I hear sometimes executive dysfunction. And I think that the really, really important part to this is to understand what executive function is so that we can understand what a dysfunction might look like. I think that it's important to understand that executive functioning is a skill. We are not born just being outstanding at it, right? So it's a skill that ADHD often effects for many, many, many, many people who are diagnosed with it. So our executive functioning skills allow us to do things like stay on task. It allows us to do things like management in our lives or organization in our lives. when our executive functioning is dysfunctioning, as many people often say, we have a really difficult time getting tasks started or finishing tasks from a personal perspective. perspective that I know you can relate to. We have a child who's diagnosed with ADHD and she always did her homework. Always. We saw her physically doing the homework. We would see the homework in the notebooks. We knew it was happening. And then we would go into the software program, you know, throughout the year that held her grades and whatever. And she'd have these, she'd have 15 or 20 zeros for homework grades that one we didn't know about and two we knew she was doing the work so she was able to complete the tasks but she couldn't finish the task of turning in the work. And that is a challenge within her executive functioning skill set. And we just met with her accommodations office at the college that she attends. And that was one of the very first things that she said to them in the meeting: that I always do my homework, but I don't always turn it in. So, you know, that's a piece that I think is really important that listeners know is ADHD affects our executive functioning and what is executive functioning to know what that looks like beyond just hyperactivity. Jayson St.Croix: Yeah, and that's a good myth that you just help explain and explore right there is because I was guilty of this. Dude, just turn in your homework. I saw you did it. When you get to school, just turn it in. But if they don't have that strategy to help them organize and to remember to turn that in, then you get what we had and what we experienced, you get a child frustrated academically because they do the work at home, their grades don't reflect the work that they do, and it just snowballs into a much larger problem, you know. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: It's just a it's it's such a difficult situation. And I think the other part of it is is you know, there's nothing wrong with this, but it's just a different way of thinking. When we have students or children, it doesn't matter if it's within your household or it's within a school setting, they become middle school or upper elementary. We they we want them to become more independent, right? So we start to give them chores or we start to say, you know, here's a homework bin at the front of the room, turn your homework in on the way out. And I know as classroom managers, we're thinking we're not wasting time collecting homework, right? How easy is it for a 13, 14, 15-year-old to put their homework in the bin on the way out the door? Like as a classroom manager, that's a great strategy, but it's not for an ADHD kid. And the same thing at home with chores. You know, we want kids to be independent, and we're like, they should be able to handle this. They should be able to remember to put the garbage out every Thursday. It's not that big of a task. For them, it's an enormous challenge. because it's not that they don't want to. And I think that's something that we really need to understand is often these behaviors are not because people want to behave in that way or they want to be difficult or they wanna forget. Nobody wants to forget what they're supposed to do. Jayson St.Croix: So do you think the public conversation around ADHD has changed? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: I think that the professional conversation around ADHD has changed. Jayson St.Croix: How so? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: So I think that in some professions, and I'd have to give, you know, a little shout out to two amazing pediatricians that I work with on a regular basis, Dr. Hogan and Dr. Estepa, really, really try to look at the whole child when they're doing a diagnosis for ADHD. So for those that don't know, when we diagnose for ADHD, one of the ways that a pediatrician can diagnose is through two standardized evaluations. And they're really all observational. The questions that are on those two different screeners are observational. So it's like a teacher reporting on what they see a student doing, a parent reporting on what they see a student doing. if we have a child who's old enough, we can sometimes get their input, but often that doesn't happen just simply because of age. Or because they don't know, right? We knew of a child who is diagnosed with ADHD and he would just always say, I don't know. I don't know. Like there was never any insight to anything. So I think that in the professional world, we're really starting to see some really good conversation. We're maybe not going straight to medication, but trying to look at how accommodations can help students and children at home. It's not just about in the classroom. It really affects kids both at home and in the classroom. But the really important thing that I think everybody needs to realize is that the classroom just simply puts boundaries on kids that they just don't have at home. And that is not that either environment is right or that either environment is wrong, but there is no parent that makes their child walk in a line to the dinner table. But we make our kids walk in a line to lunch, right? So it's just the nature of the environment. It's not that anybody's doing anything incorrectly. And I think we have to remember that that sometimes parents don't always see to the extent of what we might see in school, just so simply because kids have a bit more flexibility in that home environment than we do in a school environment. Jayson St.Croix: Right. Well, my grandmother had eight boys and they had a milk machine and a milk jug in their kitchen. So she may have had her eight boys line up at one time and walk to walk in line to the kitchen. That's funny. But y Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Maybe they did wait in line. They might have. They might have. Jayson St.Croix: you talked about your work with the two pediatricians. I'm curious, I had a original question for you, but I'm gonna tweak it a little bit. Do you think social media has helped or hurt our understanding of ADHD? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Okay, so that's a great question. I think it's where you go. So we talk about being, you know, on we found this side of social media, or we found this side, right? So, you know, we joke about like cooking or traveling. Like, I'm never gonna find the cooking side of TikTok. Like, that's just not gonna happen in my world, right? But my feed is filled with ADHD. Filled. And I really think it's the source. So obviously there's many professionals that are on my feed, and they have some really, really great insight to brain research and why ADHD is what it is or why behaviors are what they are. And it's that again we're going back to that intersection, right, of education and of medicine and how everything comes together. Why ADHD is what it is medically through research, especially obviously within the brain. Now, there's other parts of TikTok that maybe are not. And I don't wanna say just Tik Tok but it's all social media. It's just, I have to be honest, we've talked about this before. I am just I just love Tik Tok because TikTok is an ADHD person's dream in social media. It's short, it's quick, and if I don't like it, whoop, like I'm all about it, all about it. But you know, even Facebook. What we see in social media is not always accurate information. So I don't really think it's been better. I don't think it's been worse. I think it depends on where your source is. And if your source is you know, a really good, reliable, professional source that has, you know, some expertise and all of those things, I think that then that we're really starting to move in that space on social media. But it's it's getting there. It's finding it. And it's not just, you know, let me squish my squishy and watch it pop and that kind of thing. Jayson St.Croix: One thing that I've noticed is that ADHD is often reduced to stereotypes, like the kid that can't sit still, adults who are always late or the person who is constantly losing their keys. But ADHD is really about, like you mentioned earlier, executive functioning, decision making, emotional regulation, dozens of invisible challenges that people will never see. So why do you think that these stereotypes have stuck around for so long? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: I I think you just said it, it that people don't see. So the stereotype has stuck around because that's what we see. That you know, we're drawing attention or attention is being drawn to a fight that happened in the hallway because it was impulsivity. Or the student or the child who, you know, from sunup to sundown is constantly moving. Or the the kids that can't stop talking, right? Or that kind of a thing. So I think that the behaviors that tend to disrupt others are the most seeable. And that's why that stereotypical piece is sticking. Because you actually, and we're gonna talk about this in a future episode, but you actually have little girls in your classroom who have not been on task for the entire lesson. And they appear to be compliant and they get ignored. So it's really about what we see. That that's why the stereotype is staying in my belief. Jayson St.Croix: Gotcha. I think almost everyone with ADHD has heard someone say, Well, everybody gets distracted sometimes, right? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Yeah. Jayson St.Croix: Well, on the surface that could sound very plausible and reasonable. Everybody forgets things, everybody procrastinates. So what separates everyday distractions from ADHD? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: I really think that this is something that you can try to explain, but unless you're someone that experiences it, you can't relate to this. But there's a couple of pieces that come with this. If you can possibly imagine that every single thing that comes into your brain becomes an emergency. So for example, if you know, I have a to-do list, then I start going on the first one. And then I remember that I was supposed to look at LinkedIn in the morning. And I just cannot it is an immediate distraction. I have to turn and grab my phone and go to that. And then I need to remember that I was supposed to do invoicing. I have to do invoicing in order for the firm to continue to run. So I stop what I'm doing and then I go do the invoicing. And then I get a phone call, usually from the preschool our preschool contract. I get a phone call, and then now I think about the three things that I needed to do that were preschool. And I have to be honest, even as I'm having this explanation with you, I cannot remember what the first thing was that I was supposed to do in this scenario that I'm telling you. That's what it's really like. It's all an emergency, right? Everything is a post-it note. So you've said to me before, close these tabs. You have so many tabs open on your screen. Close these. And You don't get it. Those tabs are my strategy to remember that that's my to-do list. You were working on this. And if I close that tab at the top of my screen, it's gone. But if I leave it up there, my eyes will wander back to the spreadsheet or the article that I was reading or the website and remind me that I did not complete that task. So when you ask me what that's like, it's not just about getting off task and then getting back on. It's an absolute constant need and emergency to do the next thing that your brain comes to. And I you I make lists and we joke that I make lists of my lists, but it doesn't it is a conscious effort for me to stay on task and not be distracted because there is constant noise inside my head. Every moment of every day and I truly believe it's even when I'm sleeping because there's times that I'll just wake up in the middle of the night like you know people do and my brain is already you know three feet deep on a topic and I cannot go back to sleep because the it's started. There's no and and people will say that, you know, I I got things on my mind. My mind keeps going and going and going at night while I try to sleep. No, you I'm thinking while I'm sleeping. Jayson St.Croix: Yeah, if you told me this once, you've told me a thousand times. I just can't turn my brain off. Y and you've said that to me, and why can you go to sleep? No, I just can't turn my brain off. So Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Yeah. It's for me as I've aged, you're correct. I've said that to you for decades, but as I've aged, it's more about the noise in my head. I can't stop the noise. Like it's just constant. There's no silence in my brain ever. Jayson St.Croix: So the picture I'm getting from this in our conversation, I'm thinking back to last week when on we did our tangent of the week, when you said when I described what it's like to be with you on a daily basis and you said, and that's just the tip of the iceberg, because you don't even know how the light affects me when I'm trying to get regulated. You don't know how the light affects me, the pebble ice in your drink. Remember when we talked about that last week? And so the picture I'm getting in my head is the iceberg, right? When you see the iceberg, you just see the small tip of the iceberg that's above the water. But what you don't see is like two thirds or 75% of that giant iceberg that's affecting us every day with ADHD. And those things usually go unnoticed. They could be in your head. It could be noise in your head, but that's something that the public or the people that are around us don't get to experience or don't know. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Right. And that that's why you hear moms and dads say, or you know, well, the teacher says that they behave in school and there's no behavioral issues at school and everything's great at school, and we just have no control at home. That's why. Because you've worked so hard during those hours to stay on task and to, you know, keep the behaviors at bay, whatever they might be. I I mean there's there's so many different ones for different people. And then you get home and that's a safe space and you just let it all out. Jayson St.Croix: Right. I d I don't know how well you believe in foreshadowing, but I know we believe both of us that things happen for a reason. So last week in our production meeting, we were coming up with possible topics and questions that I was gonna ask you. But real life hit last night for us and it affected our daughter and what I originally was going to ask you without going too far into it because our next episode, just to tease them little bit, is about how ADHD looks different in girls. Is how does ADHD affect daily functioning? Like, for example, what is executive dysfunctioning? And I'm thinking back to our daughter when she came out to the back deck last night when she came downstairs. Right? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: I didn't even remember that happened. Like in my head, I was Yeah, yeah. Jayson St.Croix: And we talked about this episode a week and a half ago and we started making production notes for it, right? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: But but in my head, I was thinking, what did she do? What did she do? What did she do? Because I we I mean this is something that is every moment of every day for us, right? so yeah, so we had some family over for dinner and we were out on the back deck and she was upstairs getting ready for a trip that she's taking that we are not going on with her. She is going with a friend. And she came downstairs and she said, I need you to give me pressure. And I said, what? And she said, I I can't I can't I can't I can't. There's too much going on. I have to pack and I don't know what to pack and and I have to do my homework. and and you know, her friend who was upstairs with her, she's like, you know, he he he doesn't know, and he, and she's like, just put pressure on me. And literally, she just needs you to squeeze. First, you have to start with her shoulders, and once her shoulders are squeezed, you move up. And then, you know, there was a point when I felt like we were done, and she was like, No. So Jayson St.Croix: Yeah. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: I just kept squeezing the kid's head. Yeah. So she knows, but that's, you know, that's a thing. We spent a significant amount of time in her childhood helping her to identify why she's feeling what she's feeling, and then what is the strategy to support that feeling? And for her, she knows pressure is something that helps her to be successful. And if she can't do it herself, she finds someone else to do it for her. Jayson St.Croix: So the viewers, I don't know if they know this or not, but they're gonna find out we have a son and a daughter. They're separated by two years. The son's older than the daughter, and they are two very different people with ADHD. So how can two people that have ADHD look completely different? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Well he's textbook, right? And i he's textbook. He's stereotypical Jayson St.Croix: Stereotypical textbooks. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: textbook. He wakes up Jayson St.Croix: Every myth every myth and misconception is actually true for him. Correct. Yep. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: For him, absolutely. Yep, absolutely. And always has been. I There's nothing that's evolved or not evolved as he's aged. He wakes up in the morning and he is the energizer bunny from the moment his feet hit the floor to the moment he goes to bed. And often that's 19, 22 hours later. So he is a super, super intelligent kid. One of the best critical thinkers that I know. A traditional classroom is not for him. He was extremely successful in school, only because I truly believe that he feared me. Honestly, I mean it wasn't by choice of his. He was afraid that he was gonna get disciplined for not having outstanding grades. Jayson St.Croix: Well, he inherited that from me. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: yeah, yeah. But you know, he was a kid that was very non-traditional. You know, he went to BOCES but he BOCES is a trade program, but he also graduated with 18 college credits. Because I pushed one avenue and he pushed another. And to this day, you know, he's successful, he's a lineman, but he does not stop. I think that's what makes him so good at what he does now as an adult. Where you know he'll put in a twelve or thirteen hour day and then he gets a call out and he leaves again and he comes home twelve hours later. Like he, he is the stereotypical ADHD boy. Super hyper, ridiculously focused. He fixates on things. we used to joke when he was a kid. I could all I could almost name them off to you year by year of what his fixations were. But I kind of knew we were in trouble when he was, what was it? I think it was his third year. And I had mentioned when he was three that we were driving by a dump truck. And I had said, hey, look, buddy, there's a dump truck. And he kind of giggled to himself and he said, mama, that's not a dump tuck. That's an articulated dump tuck. And I'll never forget that because that was his fixation. He just knew all those things because he was hyper fixated on it. Jayson St.Croix: We can go with Bear in the Big Blue House, we can go with Fireman Sam, we can go with the John Deere and the tractors, we can go with tinkering with the Nerf guns, we can then graduated to tinkering with his lacrosse and Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: lacrosse sticks. Jayson St.Croix: it still to this day as a twenty one year old now he's tinkering with his automobile and his snowmobile and his and the boat. Right. Yeah. Right. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: I was gonna say, what about the snowmobile that's torn apart in the garage? Right? So yeah, he's like you said, he is every misconception about ADHD is actually true for him. Jayson St.Croix: Correct. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: And he is a you know, you're gonna hear people talk about medication. And I am a very, very firm believer that it has to be right for you, and for some it's right, and for some it's not. I am not a pusher of medication, but at the same time, there are some people that it that it really changes their life. And I think you know, we have kind of one of each, sort of. he refuses to medicate, though I do think it would make things a little bit better, and I talked to him about that, but he refuses to medicate and she chooses to medicate. And I think that those are very wise choices. So again, it it's just so different from person to person and the misconceptions and and what you can, you know, give as strategies and how to work at things and how to be successful. Jayson St.Croix: So I think that's one of the most frustrating parts for people is because ADHD symptoms are often invisible. Others assume that if you just worked harder or became more organized, everything would just magically fall in place. So Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Yeah. Jayson St.Croix: what do you wish before we transition to our next segment, what do you wish teachers, employers, friends, family, members understood? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: I wish that they understood that the behaviors and when I say that I don't even feel comfortable with it because I'm giving the connotation that they're negative and sometimes they are, but the behaviors that come with ADHD are not always controllable. So I really struggle, when we discipline kids for things that they can't control. Jayson St.Croix: You've spent years working in education, and I imagine that misconceptions about ADHD show up there all the time, right? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Yeah. Jayson St.Croix: So what are some of the labels that students with ADHD unfairly receive? And if you'd like Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: They're bad. Jayson St.Croix: if you'd like I can set you up with some of the possible labels and you can respond to each one or do you wanna go rapid fire? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: They're bad. I mean, I was a I was a administrator for two decades, right? When I was an assistant principal, I'd have twelve hundred discipline referrals a year. I mean, obviously it got a little bit less as I was a principal because you know, just the way that that works, but I would do twelve hundred discipline referrals a year in in the beginning as an assistant principal. And these they're labeled as bad. And that's just not true. That is just not true. I you will hear you I know you know this, I will often use the word naughty for our own child. And in reality, if I could maybe do, you know, grades K through eight again, I may do them very differently with her. Just because of my knowledge and my expertise that has come over the years and you know, within my qualifications and those kinds of things. so it's definitely bad. Jayson St.Croix: So that's fair. I'm gonna I'm gonna give you a possible label, okay? Lazy versus overwhelmed. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Definitely. Definitely. Because what happens when we're overwhelmed? We shut down. It appears to be the exact same thing, right? it's just getting the individual to be able to identify the feeling and that it is okay, and this is how we move forward with it. We use overwhelmed a lot in both my professional and in my personal life. Because that is a way to say that something's gonna happen if we don't make a change. Without being like, I'm gonna be bad, right? Like I see myself getting ready to have a meltdown. I see a meltdown occurring. I'm such a strong proponent of this, but behavior is communication. Jayson St.Croix: A hundred percent. All right, another label, you ready? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Yep. Yep. Jayson St.Croix: Disorganized versus struggling with executive functioning. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Okay, so this is the really difficult thing about ADHD, is that you can be disorganized and organized at the exact same time. So for instance. A student who takes notes on graph paper and color codes them. And every letter has its own space, right? And it's all color-coded, that's organized, right? Like that's got it going on. And then you may walk into that child's bedroom or their locker or their car or their desk. And it's just disarray. So you can have both organized and disorganized within the same person with ADHD. Jayson St.Croix: Yeah. And I'm thinking back to our friend that helped us spawn this idea of this podcast because we had to move our classrooms a couple of times this summer and she had her things laid out on her table. And I was trying to go in and help us out and move it. And I was thinking about my experiences living with you and I sent her a text and I said, let me know if you don't want me to touch anything on this table because I know even though it doesn't appear organized, I'm sure you know right where everything is and I don't want to touch it. And if you want me to pack it, I'll pack it for you. But if you don't, just say you leave it. And I think back to sometimes when I start messing with your stuff, it throws you all off because where you put something, may not there's a purpose, right. You have your own system. Yep. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: There's a purpose. Yeah. So I do. And that's why I get so frustrated. And that comes with that forgetful part or the misplacing part. like the keys to the firm. When I come in the offices in the morning, they sit in one space, you know what shelf I'm talking about. If I come in and out of this office 15 times a day, they go in that space. They're not in my bag, they're not in my pocket, they're not on my desk, they're in that space. And that is because I will lose them. Jayson St.Croix: Yeah, and it's cute because your director of operations here at the firm is starting to follow suit and use that strategy as well. She she's pretty sh she's pretty good. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Well, cause I told her you can't touch those. If y if you touch those, you have to put them back in the same spot. Jayson St.Croix: Right. Right, I got one more for you, one last one, okay, you ready? And you kinda teased a little bit about behavior being communication, which we all know in the education is pretty spot on. Behavior problems versus unmet needs. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Yeah. So this is this is tricky. Cause this kind of falls into dysregulation, right? So if a student's needs aren't met, they can often be dysregulated, which then in turn causes the behavior. So you actually have opened up a can of worms that potentially could be an entire episode in itself because it's so multi-layered on why that happens. But rarely in my experience, rarely, have I ever dealt with a student who is bad, just simply to be bad. And I I I think that another part of this is we have to remember that this is beyond ADHD, but we're still talking about behaviors. Trauma is significant for many, many people. So what appears to have no reason is actually not accurate at all. So a lot of times as I'm, you know, reading data from functional behavioral assessments, I'll I'll see an analysis by the evaluator that comes back that there's no apparent reason for the function of behavior. Or the function of behavior is attention. I usually dig deeper into those. Jayson St.Croix: When educators and families truly understand ADHD, what changes? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Your world gets calmer. Jayson St.Croix: How so? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Well, because whoever has the ADHD is not on heightened alert all the time. There's a space for them to be them and there's a space for them to get support. So again, you know, we can go back to last evening. Our daughter could have continued to be dysregulated. And we know what that looks like. That escalation would have been awful, right? Like we know. It's not just we melt down. I mean, she she sometimes would cry, she sometimes would You know, she just loses we we say she loses her mind, but you understand it's it's a meltdown. Complete and utter meltdown. But because she was aware and we were aware of how to help and support that, she comes down, she asks for pressure, we squeeze her head, and she goes back upstairs and she finishes her task. Like how difficult is that? I'm pretty sure. I mean, I I I'm not a hundred percent sure. I do I do know that she distracted my Smore eating, but I'm pretty sure I continued the conversation. conversation that we were having as I was putting pressure on her head. So it really wasn't a big deal. But when you look at it in the grand scheme of things of what it meant for her, it was a huge deal. Jayson St.Croix: Right. And I'm gonna throw in here just so people don't think that we're two schmoes, just sitting here having a conversation and we don't really know what we're talking about. But we are also big into research and we do enjoy reading. And I love Hattie's research on student achievement and factors of student achievement. And the I think the number one factor on student achievement is teacher efficacy, right? Where the teacher believes and the student can actually do it. And I'm thinking about our daughter, and I'm also thinking about this question that I have revved up for you how can schools better support students? And I'm thinking about our daughter who had that biology teacher when she was in school and believed in her that she could do it and helped her turn in those homework assignments because she knew she was struggling with those executive functioning skills and it was the best year and best class she probably had in high school. And that teacher will be forever grateful. She was always one of both of our kids' favorite teachers. She is phenomenal. Do you remember that? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Yeah. I I do. I completely agree with you. And one of the things that I really want to do with this podcast is to, and we've talked about this, right? We want to bring about knowledge of what this, you know, ADHD is in all different areas, not just school. But, you know, I when I work with the professionals in my world, a lot of it honestly is doctors and lawyers, right? But there's some significant time that I do spend with teachers as well. And I really, really feel strongly about giving shout-outs to those people. So I want to shout it out. Ms. Christine Misert it's you girl. You were the one. You changed our kids' lives. You taught biology, you held expectations, you held those boundaries, you required her to do what she needed to do to be successful, but at the same time, you gave her the grace to do that in her own way. And I feel like she learned the most from that biology class. And you know, she's in school right now to be a trauma nurse. You cannot convince me that didn't come from Ms. Misert Jayson St.Croix: Hundred percent agree. And I'm gonna wrap this up because I think this ties into and we could put a nice bow on it with this one last question I have for you. What role do communication and flexibility play? And we can think back and we can refer back to Ms. Misert and our daughter. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Yeah, I think this is the really important thing. You can be flexible without losing expectations. It's, you know, every once in a while I'll hear, well, why should I let them do it like that? The rest of the class doesn't. Or the my other children are not allowed to do that. Because fair isn't always equal, right? So one of the things that I always loved about Ms. Misert was that she still held the exact same expectations for all students. It's just how they got there might have been a little bit different. And that's where that flexibility comes in in the classroom that you can be really supportive. You know, ADHD kids are not asking for you to expect less of them. They're asking you to allow them to get to that level at the way that they're able to do that. Jayson St.Croix: One of the goals of this podcast is to move beyond labels and misconceptions and help create a space where people can better understand themselves and each other. Because ADHD isn't a character flaw and it certainly isn't a lack of effort. It's simply a different way of experiencing the world. So before we wrap things up, it's time once again for our tangent of the week. Every episode will share one of those moments that perfectly captures the wonderful, unpredictable nature of ADHD. So, Dr. St. Croix, let me paint this week's picture for you. You ready? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Absolutely. Jayson St.Croix: You went to dinner the night before. The following morning you needed to go to the grocery store. You can't find your wallet. You look in the car, the office, and your bag, no wallet. You realize you have your debit card, but not the wallet. You look again in your backpack because it always needs to be placed in that second pocket. It's not there. You call and see if it's in a friend's car. Nope, not in a friend's car. Now you can't locate the debit card because it's not in the second pocket. You head back to your book bag to make sure you have your short to do list to complete your work related task. You get in the car, find the wallet right on the floor where you sat. You finally head to the office, you sit down at your desk, get out your to do list and begin working, but you remember to do a quick check of flights. Wait. Is jet blue cheaper using Expedia? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Haha yes. Jayson St.Croix: How accurate's that? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Like, I mean, I guess I shouldn't say that because I am really, really great about keeping things in the same area to stay organized. But when it doesn't happen, that's what happens, right? It's it's it's funny, but it wasn't funny that day. I was getting irked. Jayson St.Croix: Yeah. And you weren't just getting irked. You were starting to get irked at me because I Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Yeah. Jayson St.Croix: was trying to help you out. I went out to the vehicle to see if the wallet was there. And I, of course, I what's that? I looked Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Was it there? Was it there? Jayson St.Croix: in normal places where people might put a wallet if they're in a car, you know, like maybe in a side compartment where those you can put papers and stuff. I never would have l imagined to look underneath the seat between the seat frame and the center console Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Okay. Jayson St.Croix: where you evidently put it. So when you got into the car, Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Of course Jayson St.Croix: I had to listen to it. I thought you looked in the car for my wallet. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: Yeah. You were super unsuccessful in this adventure with me. Jayson St.Croix: Yeah, not for a lack of effort though. But those are just some of the fun moments that it's like living with someone with a ADHD I and honestly, no two days are the same and like you said, why would you want them to be? And we find ways to make it successful, don't we? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: We do. Jayson St.Croix: Okay, thanks for joining us for another episode of Hook Line and Sinker. If today's conversation resonated with you, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, share the podcast with someone who still thinks ADHD is just about forgetting where you put your keys or your wallet. Next time, we'll dive into a topic that surprises a lot of people. And that is why ADHD often looks very different in girls and women. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix: I can't wait. Jayson St.Croix: So until next time, keep casting, keep learning, and remember, sometimes the best catches happen when you least expect them.