Latest / Autonomy Insiders / The EU's "Now or Never" Moment on Autonomous Vehicles, Pierfrancesco Maran, Member of EU Parliament

Transcript

The EU's "Now or Never" Moment on Autonomous Vehicles, Pierfrancesco Maran, Member of EU Parliament · Autonomy Insiders

• Daniel Abreu Marques: Welcome to Autonomy Insiders. I'm your host, Daniel, and my guest today is one of the few politicians who has put autonomous driving at the centre of his agenda. Pierfrancesco Maran is the newly elected chair of the European Parliament's ENVI Committee, the committee that handles environment, climate and food safety. And before Brussels he spent thirteen years as an alderman in Milan. Today with Pierfrancesco Maran. running mobility, urban planning and also housing for one of Europe's most ambitious cities. So in December he hosted a Brussels conference on autonomous vehicles with more than one hundred twenty stakeholders from over twenty countries. And he has called twenty twenty six as Europe's now or never moment on this technology. we're going to spend the next hour mapping on how he thinks about the A V race, what he believes Europe can still win and what he thinks needs to change the next Welcome to Autonomy Insiders, the show where global industry leaders in autonomous driving unpack their real-world insights. twelve months. So Pierfrancesco, welcome to Autonomy Insiders and I'm so happy to have you on the show today. Pierfrancesco Maran: Thank you. Thank you. I'm happy to. Daniel Abreu Marques: So maybe let's start with you. So before we get into the policy, I want listeners to understand how a Milan City Alderman ends up running the EU Parliament, Environments Committee and pushing autonomous vehicles up the agenda. So you spent thirteen years inside Milan City Halls running mobility, urban planning and housing, as I said, and then in twenty twenty four you ran for the European Parliament and won. And what was the moment you decided that municipal politics was no longer the right level for the things that you wanted to fix? Pierfrancesco Maran: Well, is not the purpose of my decision. I remind a sentence from an Oasis song that says, so I start a revolution from my bed. ⁓ So think that what you do locally can change the world. ⁓ But spent so many years and on one side, I probably need to do something different, also to my mind open. ⁓ And maybe after so many years, it was also helpful for Milan to see the end of somebody else on its politics. So I think a new ⁓ of my life on one side. And when you love a city like I do for Milan, maybe it's a goodbye, who knows, for the future. Daniel Abreu Marques: Okay. And when you arrived in in Brussels in the summer of twenty twenty four, you have said publicly that autonomous driving was the political priorities of the parliament. So the conversation on automotive was almost entirely about the CO two reduction. So ⁓ did you personally land on autonomy as the file that you wanted to push? Pierfrancesco Maran: That was exactly what I felt. OK, emission, emission is fundamental. Now I'm also in the chair and know ⁓ how environment is important. But I it's not the only part of the car we should focus on. if I have to imagine the mobility of the future, I think that how smart are cars, buses, trucks, because it's not only a matter of cars. ⁓ are much fundamental than ⁓ what is the emission rate is a sort of because we don't see any autonomous vehicle ⁓ not running by ⁓ electric engine. On the hand, think are too focusing on it. While ⁓ investing in this kind of is a matter of the future of the car, it's a matter of the future of public transport. And I was surprised, I'm still surprised because now maybe I'm not alone, but we are a few. And it's not only a matter of politics. It's a matter about the car manufacturers that don't feel, this as a turning point of mobility. Maybe because it's out of their business model, but I don't think it would be... out of the future of mobility, European and worldwide. Daniel Abreu Marques: And and before we get ⁓ into geopolitics, I want to also start with the basic case for autonomy in Europe. So when you make the case for autonomous mobility in Europe in a room of let's say skeptical colleagues in the parliament, are the two or three arguments you actually lead with? So how can autonomous mobility help Europe? Pierfrancesco Maran: Well, first, this is the mandate. ⁓ talking about competitiveness. We are late. We some startup, nice startup, but the other, ⁓ they have that run services that are still forbidden in Europe. This is a mean, okay, maybe you don't trust this is fundamental for mobility. Okay, I can ⁓ accept it, but why? Everybody's talking about competitiveness. We are late. maybe you don't trust this is fundamental mobility. Okay, I can ⁓ accept it, why? giving European companies the opportunity to be part of this. not giving European companies the opportunity to be part of this. many are skeptical, but this is the mandate everybody is talking about competitiveness. And ⁓ if you accelerate as investment on one side and also on rules on the other, our European companies compete with the US one or Asian. ⁓ So this is Maybe you don't trust this kind of mobility, but you should trust the fact that the companies there should have an opportunity. ⁓ And this is main point. ⁓ if you don't accelerate as investment on one side and also on rules on the other, our companies can't compete with the US one or Asian. Second, I belong to public transport assets and we lack drivers. Not in 2027, not in 2028, but if we look at the future, part of the public transport system will be driverless. And this is an opportunity to enlarge services to citizens. Many of my colleagues understand that. Daniel Abreu Marques: And when you talk to people in Brussels about this, where do you find the most resistance and where do you find the the easiest yes? Pierfrancesco Maran: I don't find people against. I many people that imagine that is future and not present, so not a priority. That is the main problem. We had an agenda, we set an agenda of things that we should do in 2026 and they are happening as fast as it was decided because ⁓ there are other stuffs. ⁓ I can understand, it's not... ⁓ point, mean, even because the others are running fast and we have for the first time Chinese companies operating in Europe. So we want to have a European technology for autonomous vehicles, and I think we can have and I think need to have because also of cyber security, we should move Inside the European Commission, find some people are working in the right direction and I hope we obtain results in the second part of the year to get the European start-up the possibility to compete. And we have smart start-ups in Europe that ⁓ are to scale up, so we have to support them. Daniel Abreu Marques: Yeah. And your speeches and also your interviews, it's clear that for you the case goes ⁓ well beyond the operational arguments. So ⁓ talk about European autonomy also in the same breath as energy independence or strategic sovereignty. So ⁓ you say European autonomy specifically in the context of mobility, what do you actually mean? Pierfrancesco Maran: Well, first, when I went to San Francisco see directly what's happening there, I with lots of engineers that are working there because they have the to do there and not in Europe. I want they have opportunity to grow up professionally in Europe. It is part of the idea of the future of our jobs. Why you can't innovate staying in Europe or in Italy. will not happen if we don't support. So is a main I want to work. ⁓ Then, OK, an idea of service, ⁓ but you to have some influence on technology. Even autonomous vehicle. OK, ⁓ Which model? you go to USA, it is a sort of Uber without a driver. If ⁓ see many times are collective systems. What do we for Europe? For example, if we talk with the cities, ⁓ they expect Chinese based model. But I'm not sure. or I'm against the fact that we use Chinese technology to do that because we don't know if it will be safe, if we will have 100 % of use in the long term we are based on American technology on many other aspects. ⁓ how can we create a European model? Because we don't want, for example, to cancel human driving taxis from one day to the next that is possible. ⁓ I'm against the fact that we use Chinese technology to that because we don't know if it will be safe, if we will have 100 % use in the long term possible what will happen in San Francisco in a couple of years. we want to increase the services for citizens. ⁓ you have to think about the new services with the operators. And I think it's easier if you have local operators and not coming from other continents. Daniel Abreu Marques: Yeah. Pierfrancesco Maran: Otherwise, you have to adapt to their solution. example, it's happening with ⁓ in London. Waymo is a fantastic technology. I really love them. But have a service and they increase the number of cities where they operate. I would like to have the idea of what service I need for European cities. Daniel Abreu Marques: Mm-hmm. Makes sense. And maybe let's also stay on this on this narrative that is also in the European media oftentimes ⁓ right now. That's it's kind of like Europe is falling behind, US and China and autonomous driving. And I I would I think ⁓ you probably answered it a bit already, so but do you share the diagnosis and or do you think it's overstated? And if you share it, ⁓ what is your own explanation how we got there? Pierfrancesco Maran: Well, first the idea that US innovate and Europe regulate, I to mention that in this case, we don't regulate. So instead innovating, are renouncing to the other aspect. And I hope we will have in a close future some regulation that help have a some sandbox area to experiment because we don't need to have driversless cars all over Europe as it's not happening in the United States but you have some place where you have to experiment. Second, we spent some money in the last years for startups. I think a few money spread in too many projects. So now in the next budget we have, in my opinion, to concentrate maybe also the same amount, but in three, four flagship projects, no more. Not 70 like before. because they close after public money is over. okay, we have to involve universities, ⁓ only involve, but we have to start from universities because we have ⁓ technology, but have to scale up. It's no the moment of prototypes. ⁓ But you have to imagine how can we have 100 cars from the same company in a couple of years. we have some opportunity. ⁓ happening in Hamburg is really interesting. What's happening in Milan is interesting with a new company that is very promising. ⁓ happening on trucks in Sweden is promising. But will not ⁓ reach results alone without ⁓ European and national government support. Daniel Abreu Marques: Yeah, and maybe to stay on that, the the commission also published its automotive industrial action plan in March twenty twenty five. And there it promises this free large scale cross border A V test bed, also a refined type approval project, and roughly one billion euros of public private money by twenty twenty seven. And I want to ask you, is that the right order of magnitude or do you think it's more like a rounding error compared to that what Waymo alone raised in his last round, where we know it's like sixteen billion in one round? Pierfrancesco Maran: Well, first they made a proposal and now parliament and the council are working on it and I hope we can increase the visibility and the policies about autonomous vehicles in the parliament action and I will try to do that. On the other aspect, what about the money? The money of course is not sufficient because you imagine for Europe the same amount of a single company that is it's a unicorn, it's a universal company, say. But not a matter of amount, but also how you spend it. Because in the previous seven years, we 400 euros, more or less. But as I was mentioning, spreading in so many projects, that doesn't any ⁓ message to the market. if a private investor, Why should I invest in one of the 70 projects supported by the European Commission? How can you help me to understand that this specific project has a chance and the other are sort of nice to have or something don't trust? ⁓ that money goes to 70 projects again and it will be lost. Or helps to have three large projects, one on... a robotaxi, one on public transport, one on trucks be that or other. If ⁓ you invest this money in three, four projects, it is a good basis to find the private money. Otherwise, it's to address to support the citizens or renewables or something else. Daniel Abreu Marques: Yeah, and ⁓ maybe let's quickly ⁓ also stay ⁓ on Waymo because last summer you met with Waymo and also Waymo was on this industry panel at your December conference in the Spinelli building. So what was the single most uncomfortable thing they told you about Europe for in terms of autonomous driving Pierfrancesco Maran: First, are very people, so they didn't say nothing bad. But they started from London, not ⁓ from the EU. That a choice. Now, they didn't say anything But they ⁓ do we should reflect about it. So why they didn't choose Paris? Why they didn't choose Berlin? Why they didn't choose Milan? Because it's complicated, because you have your rules, you have a national law. We didn't create a single system for European mobility. So it is complicated to come to Europe. On one hand, it could help and give time to European Union operators. On the other, nothing has changed from when they announced the London so we lose other six months and I'm worried about it. Daniel Abreu Marques: ⁓ I think ⁓ what we also see there's also another pattern, for example, like the Chinese players you mentioned already. We see ApolloGo that is going into Switzerland with the AmiGo project. We see Pony AI also partnership with Stellantis and WeRide as well in Zurich. So the Chinese A V companies are also arriving in Europe, but also through Switzerland, so ⁓ not the EU member states. Pierfrancesco Maran: Yeah. in Zagreb. No, no, also in your member state because in Zagreb they are experimenting. So is happening inside EU. The largest operator that is MOIA anyway, it has some Chinese technology inside. Even then they start in Hamburg, in Austin. I hope at the same time, but I suppose we will see Austin first. So... ⁓ It is another message. mean, we have to create as fast as we can some sandbox space to experiment not only with the national state and EU, but also with the local communities because you have to involve cities, you have to involve citizens in this revolution. So it is important that you find places where you have mayors that knows what we are talking about. the risk because ⁓ have to get ready on about the first car accident. ⁓ will happen. It is a safer technology compared to human driving, but not 100 % safe. So it will help. It will happen. You have to get ready. You have to get citizens ready to understand what could ⁓ happen. It's something we have to learn. is a new actor in the street. It is different. It's autonomous. You to know it. The last time we introduced a new actor, was the scooters, scooter et cetera, we didn't introduce in the right It was an explosion, many of them from one day to the next. You don't know how to drive. ⁓ so you make several accidents, but you as a pedestrian or as a car driver, you don't know how ⁓ their behaviour. So, we should on education about mobility. Let's start with some cities that are ready to involve citizens in this process, otherwise technologies can be rejected. It's possible it will happen. Daniel Abreu Marques: And mentioned now several times, and also including your December conference and an another interview at Startup Italia that ⁓ of the biggest barriers to ⁓ in Europe is the lack of harmonization. and when you describe the harmonization problem a colleague in the parliament who is not too much into the A V industry, ⁓ how do you explain them what is broken? Pierfrancesco Maran: is complicated because people on mobility and ⁓ about they are based on type approval. Now even ⁓ United Nations, are closing the idea of a general type approval for level three and level four. Fantastic. But for autonomous I would define that need ⁓ two different driver licenses a continuous check because you can be okay for a type approval the first day. But software mainly. So every patch, every update could different. To have ⁓ what accidents caused or involves autonomous vehicle, wouldn't expect at type But I would pretend improvement month after year after year. So we need a different system of check. not based on the fact that everything should be perfect at beginning, but we should start, we should experiment, we should... maybe also people inside to check for the first couple of years. But we should be aware of what the problems are that is mandatory. And there is a second driving license because I can be ready to circulate in the brussels, for example, because I made several kilometers and the software knows brussels perfectly. but the same car could crash Liège because it's a different position, streets. So a sort of ⁓ double driving One, say technology is Second, where the technology is ready. Daniel Abreu Marques: Makes sense. So you could then ⁓ design the the perfect solution from a blank page, so what would the harmonized European framework for autonomies actually look like for you? Pierfrancesco Maran: Well, first we have to listening to cities, because we imagine as an urban service at the beginning, and with companies, because sometimes we design services that nobody wants to give or is not affordable to give. For example, at the moment, as I mentioned, cities want more public transport, but companies think they could be ready for a robot taxi. How can we match it? First, what kind of services the robotaxi do? In which area? It's only city center. They give services in areas that are not served by public transport. They need some sort of robotaxi. We work on scalable technology that can be right hailing for many and small buses in the future. I hope so. It's not a matter of software. We have specific cars that could be adapted for these kinds of services and why couldn't ⁓ done in Europe. ⁓ we need the head to think all the value chain of this service, starting from some and companies that are ready. Hamburg, Zagreb, Milan, we are ready. We need to start, we need to have services, need to see. Daniel Abreu Marques: maybe let's ⁓ stay on a theme and talk about what Europe is ⁓ good at. So ⁓ for example, Bosch Continental, ZF Valeo, the four largest global ADAS suppliers are all European. We have strong automotive OEM heritage with world class manufacturing, and we invented functional safety as a discipline more or less. So what is the realistic European path that builds from those strengths instead of trying to just Waymo for example? Pierfrancesco Maran: That is an important point because we see what happened in ⁓ ⁓ we have Tesla that is a system and it is ⁓ car company, but it is a very particular car company. They innovate so many times ⁓ what they do in every sector, in every aspect, that they are not a car company. Elon Musk is different. the other aspect, we have some startup that could scale up because of large investors like Zoox like Waymo mainly. We don't have a car manufacturer that create autonomous vehicle that is a successful Why? I think because ⁓ in their idea of business model, they wanna sell a car. So ⁓ if they to... 2 plus of autonomous vehicle, they think that the people they want to sell the car, are satisfied, ⁓ technology to support you as a driver. But they don't imagine a business model where the car has no driver because it's the driver that will buy the car. So ⁓ ⁓ we saw also the lobbying action at the ⁓ level. car manufacturers are pushing on other aspects but not technology because it's not their priority. And even if I see what is the future of autonomous vehicles in Europe, I imagine the MOIA and MOIA, okay, is Volkswagen, but it's a startup and independent one. see the Niulinx, the new Italian company and it's a startup. I see decoration. I see a ride in Sweden. They don't... start from a car, but they start from technology, from software, from AI. should help them ⁓ have an of manufacturers, European manufacturers, industries to support them. Because even adapting a car to AI, it's not easy because you have to enter in all the single... pieces in their technology should be allowed. And a startup has got many problems to have the authorization even buying a car from a large manufacturer. So that is why I think that the next step and EU can help on that is to create a sort of alliance from you are investing on software and AI. I am a small European manufacturer. Let's bring it together because for you to have somebody buying 1,000 cars a year, it's fantastic. It's a great opportunity. Maybe it's 25 % of your market. And the other, they need somebody that takes care of the project, that is responsive. You have bureaucracy on one side, you can't have the car manufacturer that creates other bureaucracy. We have many things to do. But if you see, fact, Zoox and ⁓ they have specific models, very expensive, but if they send an email, somebody answers in a couple of hours. That is why they pay so much at this Daniel Abreu Marques: Yeah, makes sense. And let's look at another European So we have also Wayve in in that raised over a billion dollars from SoftBank Nvidia and Microsoft. ⁓ And you called for a mistral equivalent for autonomy, or less. So and I want to you, is Wayve that company already, even though it sits in the ⁓ United Kingdom and is not longer in the EU? But if it is, what does it also say about Pierfrancesco Maran: Yup. Daniel Abreu Marques: Europe versus the EU as the unit of analysis. Pierfrancesco Maran: Well, first, is Europe, but not European Union. mean, it's their choice. Every choice is reversible. So we hope one day it will change. But now it's not a EU company. And for us, it's similar to the American one. It is a very interesting model, in my opinion, because they don't start from the car. I mean, they imagine their technology can be in different cars. wondering if car manufacturers are ready for that or they imagine only, okay, this technology they will go parking on their own, but ⁓ it also an expensive technology. So I wouldn't buy only to have this kind of service. I still imagine driverless cars are more shared ⁓ than owned. or I'm about the Tesla model and the idea, okay, I can use the car and then I can ⁓ share with other people. It's an interesting business model. I don't know if so much European, honestly, but in I don't think I can imagine ⁓ in the next five, 10 years, a driverless car for private in the European model. because we have a different commuting time. I in an event in San Francisco. And of course, in San Francisco, in LA, you commute for three hours a day because you live so far. It is part of your business day to have an ⁓ autonomous But in Europe, usually, we don't drive three hours a day. So few people need this kind of service. Daniel Abreu Marques: And we also have the EU regulation twenty twenty fourteen twenty six, ⁓ was also was meant to be like a the breakthrough on driverless type approval, but it has also two ⁓ structural limits. So first of all it caps the registrations at t thousand five hundred vehicles per type per year. And second, ⁓ you also have ⁓ even this type approval, the operating area is then still decided by the by the member states. So ⁓ where do you think the parliament should and also can actually push ⁓ on those two limits? Pierfrancesco Maran: Well, first, I think and I hope we will be much clearer in the automotive reaction plan about it. Then depends mainly on commission and member state. I also we should put back on the table, because it was an idea about a mobility agency, because we need it. We definitely need it, because I can't imagine have a national data collect. we should put back on the table, an idea about a mobility agency, because we need it. We definitely need It will be difficult for Germany, for France, for Italy, okay, but as I was mentioning, Croatia, they are doing very well. Czech Republic, they are investing there. But I can't imagine they will have the sufficient set of data to really understand what's happening. So we need to bring the data together at the EU level to check out the technology are safe and to harmonize the rules. we need to bring the data together at the EU level to check out the technology are safe and to harmonize the rules. ⁓ I'm not sure that the only technology of the next decade that will be the American system that is based on the idea that the car can do everything alone. I imagine that it's possible that other technologies, especially if they are based on public transport, ⁓ need to communicate with the around environment. So we need to have something that is not national. We need... ⁓ European approach, same technology, same kind of sensors, rules, same of rules because for example we change the speed limit several times because we do the national administrator but we do it a different kind of way. We need to harmonize it ⁓ now it's not a human driver that says, they move from 70 to 50 and then 70. Okay, I respect, but I adapt ⁓ driver. It's rule. I mean, technology needs to have a clear message while on the street we are not totally clear. Daniel Abreu Marques: Yeah, so I understand it then correctly that the for example the European mobility agency should then ⁓ the the traffic codes, collect the mandatory data on A V kilometers and also then streamline the approvals on a European level. Pierfrancesco Maran: I think it's becoming mandatory day after day. I don't know if we will do when, I can't imagine we stay at the national level, then some part it's European. least for driverless car, then we should need for many other aspects of mobility, we should imagine to go... ⁓ at the EU level, in my opinion, as soon as possible. And even in the USA, where you have a stronger state and you need the state authorization, data collector is federal let's do something similar. It's working in the United States. Let's not reinvent the wheel, I mean. Daniel Abreu Marques: And you mentioned already that for example you see Italian engineers that ⁓ go to US to work there and not are not staying in Europe. So ⁓ Europe has talent, but it's deployed overseas. and what do you think is this ⁓ a compensation problem, a capital problem, ⁓ or a culture problem? What what is problem? Pierfrancesco Maran: ⁓ It's a capital problem and also the idea that the car is changing. For example, when I went to Zoox they have ⁓ Italian engineer at the end, ⁓ the... Largest part of the car is made in Modena, Italy, next to Ferrari. If we go back 20, 30 years, I would have defined an Italian car with, okay, they bought some technology in the United States. Now the value chains say that software is the most expensive thing and you can ⁓ buy Italian design as a nice to have. It is impressive, but it is what's happening. company needs money to scale up. The Italian I mentioned before, and I really trust them because I saw them the beginning. They started from Politecnico University in Milan. They have a high potential. They made around a fantastic result compared to European startup. nothing comparable to the money they have in the United States. So on one hand, I trust the fact that our European brains sometimes can obtain better results or the other compared to the amount of money. But 50 % less, 60 % less, 90 % less, it's much problematic. So we need also to concentrate Daniel Abreu Marques: Yeah, absolutely. Pierfrancesco Maran: public and private investment in the few that can become champions. That is also an idea of the Draghi report. is something about the European philosophy. We ⁓ for decades that Europe the center of the world. So we have to create the condition of ⁓ competition among European companies and not concentrate. But now we are fighting or competing better with Asian and American actors that concentrate. So we need champions. We don't need of small companies. ⁓ need somebody that can be protagonist in Europe and maybe also in US and Asia. Daniel Abreu Marques: Yeah, makes absolutely sense. And another question that just into my mind. So ⁓ we see, for example, the that they are really strict with Chinese technology in the US. So you cannot deploy like Chinese virtual driver in the US to protect kind of their home market. So we're currently in the situation here in that we don't have so many options that are really right now at the level that which where we can say, Okay, now they can go driver-out on on public roads. So Pierfrancesco Maran: Mm. Daniel Abreu Marques: some of the of the players use Chinese technology. Do you think this is a good thing or the European Union should also do somehow restrict Chinese players coming to Europe? Pierfrancesco Maran: you think we should make some restriction and it's not happening because there is not a big attention on the issue. it is not because they are authorized, but because nobody looks into this point. And for the level ⁓ of test that we are ⁓ doing this moment, I think we can ask. ⁓ to those companies to switch to some European technology and to concentrate investment to make them grow up. When I listen to care manufacturers, many of them, they say, let's invest together in common European technology for everybody. I think it's a good idea, but then when they talk with the commission, they ask for... permitting about emissions, but not for investing in technology. And I think it's a big problem for the future because we will not compete with Asia down innovation, but investing more. Daniel Abreu Marques: so we on the bit of concentrating capital in few projects and not spreading across ⁓ 70 projects. ⁓ So and we talked about idea of three cross border test beds ⁓ around Europe. And in your opinion, so where should this cross ⁓ border test beds be and and ⁓ on what use cases primarily? Pierfrancesco Maran: Well, I expect the Commission to an action soon to define the places where it's possible to experiment. We have to start from the places we have projected. it's not a mystery. Hamburg is doing great things. It's not a mystery something is happening in Zagreb. It's not a mystery Milan and Turin want to be ready. ⁓ also signed a letter by 60 cities, 60 Italian cities last year to us. Let's make us experiment. We have to follow the opportunities. So we don't need a European sandbox worldwide. We need the places, but we need them soon. And I hope and think in 2026, we will have the rules for that. Daniel Abreu Marques: Perfect. So maybe one last question to to wrap up. So the year 2030. If your agenda works, ⁓ what does an autonomous ⁓ mobility Monday look ⁓ in Europe? Pierfrancesco Maran: I don't think in 2030 we will be in a revolutionary moment, but we will have services. We will have some cities where they will have a part of the market of ride hailing And I think we will have some services, maybe connection with the airport, etc. of public transport working. I don't think in... three, four years we will have large-scale events. I think ⁓ ⁓ metropolitan areas they will be ⁓ to have those kinds of services. Even because the I thought when I used ⁓ Waymo and Zoox in San Francisco, I thought it was very particular and revolutionary. for the first couple of minutes and after 10 minutes I forgot that it was no driver so it is very easy to to get used. Daniel Abreu Marques: Yeah, absolutely. But it's it's a good sign if it's that way, because it's like a such a smooth and experience that you that you really get used to it very quickly. Perfect. Pierfrancesco, it was an honor to have you on the show today. And thank you so much for your time and all your insights. yeah, looking forward to see where ⁓ the EU is heading with all these initiatives you bring up. And yeah, thank you very much again. Pierfrancesco Maran: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.