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Trump's 'need for violence'. And have we joined the war on Iran? · The Morning Edition

0:07
S1: It could be argued that no American president has been
0:10
S1: as enamored with violence as Donald Trump has. He appears
0:14
S1: to relish all of it the spectacle, the promise of
0:17
S1: it taking place, and lately its bloody reality. As at
0:21
S1: the time of recording, American bombs continue to drop on Iran.
0:26
S1: So is this the key to understanding Trump's motivation for
0:29
S1: all the other wars he's planning? I'm Samantha Cylinder Morris,
0:34
S1: and you're listening to The Morning Edition from the Age
0:37
S1: and The Sydney Morning Herald today, international and political editor
0:41
S1: Peter Hartcher on which country Donald Trump has his sights
0:44
S1: on next and whether Australia is now at war with Iran.
0:49
S1: It's March the 12th. Welcome back Peter.
0:56
S2: Always good to be with you, Samantha.
0:59
S1: Okay, well, let's launch in because you have got a
1:01
S1: theory that addresses what's got to be the $600 million
1:05
S1: question that everyone is asking right now, and that is
1:08
S1: what is behind all of these wars that Donald Trump
1:10
S1: has either instigated or has plans to instigate. What's your theory, Peter?
1:16
S2: Well, I would say it's more like a $100 trillion question, Samantha.
1:20
S2: Which is roughly the total value of global GDP because
1:26
S2: the global economy is affected and in some respects is
1:30
S2: very vulnerable to this war in Iran. So just looking
1:34
S2: at the facts before you get to the theory, the
1:37
S2: facts are that when Donald Trump was still in the
1:40
S2: process of getting Maduro, the Venezuelan president charged and tried
1:47
S2: in a New York court, he was already talking about
1:51
S2: going to war in Iran. When the war in Iran
1:55
S2: had been running for just one week. So last weekend,
1:59
S2: Donald Trump talked openly about war on Cuba. He addressed
2:04
S2: a group of leaders of nations from the Western Hemisphere.
2:08
S2: So South America, Central America, Caribbean leaders, and said Cuba
2:12
S2: is in its last days as you know it.
2:15
S3: So looking forward to the great change that will soon
2:17
S3: be coming to Cuba. Cuba's at the end of the line.
2:22
S3: They're very much at the end of the line.
2:24
S2: It's the end of Cuba as it is.
2:26
S3: They have a bad philosophy. They have a bad regime.
2:31
S3: That's been bad for a long time.
2:34
S2: So very clear. Planning to change the regime or at
2:40
S2: least kill the leader in Cuba. And so I just
2:44
S2: was asking myself, what's the rush? You're doing one big
2:48
S2: operation and you're you haven't even finished it. And you're
2:51
S2: talking about the next. That was the Venezuelan one into Iran,
2:54
S2: and now you're in Iran. Missiles are flying The world
2:59
S2: economy is teetering. And you're talking about Cuba. And then
3:05
S2: in that very same speech to those leaders where he's
3:07
S2: talking about Cuba being next, he talks to them about
3:12
S2: the purpose of that particular gathering, which was to launch
3:14
S2: an initiative called The Shield of the Americas, an American
3:18
S2: led military operation to.
3:21
S3: To eradicate the criminal cartels plaguing our region. And you
3:25
S3: have a lot of it. One of the things which.
3:28
S2: As Pete Hegseth, his war secretary, has warned, could involve
3:32
S2: the imposition of US forces into those countries against their will.
3:37
S2: And again, Trump was there to promote that. So what's
3:40
S2: the haste in all this? He's only been in power
3:43
S2: a little over 400 days. He's still got 1400 days
3:46
S2: left in this term. This continuous flurry before one is finished,
3:50
S2: another is launched and then another. So I did have
3:54
S2: a suspicion. But Samantha, it didn't become a theory until
3:57
S2: I talked to an American presidential and political historian and
4:01
S2: a professor of political management at GW George Washington University
4:05
S2: in the US. Matt Dallek is his name, and he
4:09
S2: said it's pretty straightforward. His theory or his explanation, which
4:13
S2: does seem to make sense of this, is that Trump
4:18
S2: traditionally likes a crisis. He likes to generate a crisis,
4:26
S2: but then quickly to move from one drama to the next,
4:29
S2: partly to keep the globe's attention and the electorate's attention
4:34
S2: on him, which works very much for him because it
4:37
S2: serves his purpose of dominating the agenda. The political space,
4:41
S2: the debate and dominating his political opponents. But it also
4:46
S2: serves his apparent pathological need to use violence, as is
4:53
S2: it a source of dominance, perhaps. Is it a source
4:56
S2: Of theater, entertainment and political attention getting. Is it a source.
5:01
S2: Of some political. Some personal satisfaction and need to dominate.
5:06
S2: Don't know about that, but what Matt Dallek explained is
5:09
S2: that Trump. Traditionally hops from one crisis to the next,
5:13
S2: partly to keep attention. But also as a way of
5:16
S2: drawing away attention from problems in the crisis of the moment. Venezuela,
5:22
S2: for example. All he did was change the leader, the deputy.
5:27
S2: Stepped up. The regime hasn't fundamentally changed. Venezuela's problems are
5:30
S2: not solved. It's made it more pliable to the US
5:34
S2: and its promise to open its oil once again to
5:37
S2: the US. But that's it. Otherwise, it's very much unfinished business.
5:41
S2: Then you get into Iran, which is still in the
5:44
S2: throes of a hot war, and he's talking about Cuba.
5:46
S2: So Matt Dalek's theory or explanation fits the facts that
5:52
S2: he just wants a constant procession of war, of dramas,
5:58
S2: to generate attention and to keep the initiative politically and
6:03
S2: to dominate.
6:05
S1: And so obviously, Trump has a lot that he would
6:08
S1: want to possibly distract from. Of course, there's a cost
6:11
S1: of living crisis. The price of oil, of course, is
6:13
S1: going up because of what's happening in Iran. There's obviously
6:16
S1: the Epstein files that he, you know, really wishes was
6:20
S1: behind him. And he seems to have this fondness, I guess,
6:24
S1: for certainly for spectacle, but possibly for violent spectacle. And
6:28
S1: you've written about his plans for the celebration of United
6:33
S1: States's independence from Britain. And it's got a. Well, you
6:36
S1: say he's going to be turning the white House into
6:38
S1: a cage match. So I guess just tell us about that, Peter.
6:42
S2: Yes. So a year ago, Trump did say he did
6:46
S2: promise that for the 250th birthday of America, he would
6:53
S2: host a UFC fight at the white House courtesy of
6:57
S2: his friend, old mate donor collaborator Dana White, who runs
7:03
S2: the UFC franchise. Ultimate Fighting Championship. For anybody who doesn't
7:07
S2: know about this franchise, it's a sort of a a
7:12
S2: community unto itself. Uh, very popular with young men, has
7:17
S2: a huge international following. And it's known for being hyper violent.
7:22
S2: And he did promise that. And on the weekend, the
7:25
S2: same weekend, when he's talking about the shield of America's
7:29
S2: and military intrusions into Latin, South America, Caribbean, Central America,
7:34
S2: the same weekend, he's talking about Cuba being next, the
7:36
S2: same weekend. He's still trying to manage a war in Iran.
7:40
S2: He announces the details and the UFC announces the details
7:44
S2: of this event at the white House coming up, uh,
7:47
S2: in June. And it's, uh oh, by the way, just
7:49
S2: happens to the event, just happens to be held on
7:52
S2: Trump's birthday, and he'll be hosting it at the white House.
7:56
S2: It's going to be a series of six UFC fights.
7:59
S2: They're planning 5000 people in stadium style seating on the
8:04
S2: South Lawn of the white House, with explosions of music
8:08
S2: and riots of color and the whole spectacle of UFC.
8:14
S2: So this is the plan for celebrating the US Declaration
8:18
S2: of Independence.
8:21
S1: After the break.
8:23
S2: It would be naive of us to say that we
8:25
S2: are not in a state of hostilities with Iran. Already
8:27
S2: we have been at their instigation and we need to know.
8:31
S2: We need to remember who our enemies are and who
8:34
S2: our friends are.
8:41
S1: But just tell us, Peter, I guess for some context,
8:43
S1: how much does this depart from, say, the manner in
8:45
S1: which previous American presidents would celebrate America's birthday? Because I
8:49
S1: don't imagine, uh, bare chested fighters emerging from the Oval
8:55
S1: Office was part of that, but I wasn't there, so.
8:57
S2: Well, you're right, this is a big departure. Uh, traditionally,
9:02
S2: it's been celebrated. With presidential speeches, parades, military parades. It's
9:08
S2: been celebrated with barbecues. Presidential picnics. John F Kennedy, in
9:14
S2: a speech he gave in 1962 at the celebration of
9:18
S2: Independence Day, talked about the importance of Independence Day as
9:22
S2: a revolution in human affairs. This year, we have to
9:26
S2: wonder if this celebration marks a regression in human affairs. It's,
9:31
S2: you know, this theatrical display of violence for Trump's benefit.
9:37
S2: But with all the cameras and all the violence, in
9:40
S2: this case, hand to hand combat rather than state on
9:43
S2: state combat does seem to be all of a piece
9:48
S2: with Donald Trump's approach to political display, political theater, the
9:53
S2: conduct of politics and policy itself, the need for constant
9:59
S2: displays of violence. And when he's not actually conducting violence,
10:05
S2: he's promoting it or fantasizing about it. For example, in
10:10
S2: his last term, in his first term as president, he
10:14
S2: urged the US military, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs,
10:17
S2: Mark Milley, to shoot American protesters in the legs. Mark Milley,
10:22
S2: of course, declined. It's not the military's job to go
10:24
S2: around shooting American citizens in America in this term, he
10:29
S2: told a meeting of 800 assembled generals and admirals that
10:33
S2: they should use America's cities as training grounds for their
10:38
S2: combat techniques. Again, the military has politely declined that invitation.
10:43
S2: He has thought about using the Insurrection Act to allow
10:46
S2: the military that's been much speculated to operate on US
10:50
S2: soil against US citizens. that hasn't happened. He has tried,
10:56
S2: you know, in other ways to to operate. Political violence
11:00
S2: in America on American soil. The Ice raids are the
11:04
S2: closest thing. Well, they were quite violent. And two American
11:07
S2: citizens were murdered by Ice agents. Outcomes which Trump initially
11:12
S2: applauded before realizing the political consequences and then backing off.
11:17
S2: But Matt Dallek, the political historian, makes the point that
11:21
S2: Trump seems to have found executing political violence domestically is
11:26
S2: too hidebound to rule bound, and it's too difficult to
11:29
S2: go through the Congress and do it at home. So
11:32
S2: hence the president, the man who said he was the
11:34
S2: president for peace, who would never start a war, he
11:37
S2: would only end wars, suddenly becomes this constant warmonger, waging
11:43
S2: new and more conflicts at a feverish pace. And, uh,
11:49
S2: you know, that Independence Day plan for a UFC fight
11:56
S2: on the South Lawn of the white House, and the
11:57
S2: huge spectacle does seem to be a metaphor for his
12:02
S2: presidency and the importance he places on violence not necessarily
12:06
S2: to get an outcome, but to produce a theatrical effect.
12:11
S1: And I imagine a lot of Australian listeners will be
12:15
S1: thinking as I'm thinking that, okay, it's one thing, you know,
12:19
S1: we can laugh about bare chested fighters coming out of
12:22
S1: the Oval Office to celebrate America's birthday and how ridiculous
12:25
S1: this is. But I guess the question is, is Australia
12:29
S1: now become a target for Iran as a result of
12:33
S1: what Trump's doing? Because I'm thinking about Anthony Albanese's announcement
12:37
S1: on Tuesday that the Australian government is providing missiles to
12:41
S1: the United Arab Emirates, and he has since denounced that
12:44
S1: Australia is also sending 85 ADF personnel to the UAE.
12:48
S1: Not to mention, of course, the three members of the
12:51
S1: ADF who were on board a US submarine that sank
12:53
S1: an Iranian warship earlier this month. And then we've got
12:56
S1: the five members of the Iranian women's soccer team who
12:59
S1: just escaped their Iranian handlers on the Gold Coast a
13:03
S1: few days ago to take refuge here. So, Peter, have
13:06
S1: we entered this war?
13:09
S2: Well, partly yes, through the UAE. Yes. Um, that's the
13:16
S2: bald truth. The UAE has requested, apparently with full cognizance
13:22
S2: and approval from Washington, has asked Australia for help defending
13:27
S2: itself against Iran. And Australia has agreed. And this position
13:32
S2: has been supported by both the major parties in Australia
13:36
S2: coalition and the current government. Only the Greens have objected
13:40
S2: to this, but the. You know, the the contribution is
13:44
S2: is minimal. It's one of Australia's six Wedgetail Awac planes,
13:50
S2: which is capable of battlefield management and surveillance and coordination,
13:57
S2: and a supply of some air to air missiles to
13:59
S2: allow the UAE to shoot down incoming Iranian missiles or
14:02
S2: drones and the crews to operate those. It's a good
14:07
S2: talking point for the Greens to get excited about, but
14:10
S2: it is a pretty minimal contribution. I'd just add one
14:13
S2: more point, and this is something that governments in Australia
14:16
S2: have operated for decades. But and it's not a secret,
14:18
S2: but they just don't talk it up, which is that
14:21
S2: the AminaB air base in the UAE, the Australian Air Force,
14:27
S2: the Australian military has operated through there for decades. The
14:30
S2: UAE has been a very willing host. Now, Australians don't
14:34
S2: know that. But for that relationship to exist and the
14:37
S2: political trade, economic relationship is also pretty healthy. One means
14:42
S2: that when they turn to Australia and say, well, can
14:44
S2: you give us a hand defending ourselves against these thousands
14:47
S2: of Iranian missiles and drones. You can see that knowing
14:51
S2: that fact of the history of cooperation with the Air Force,
14:53
S2: that it would be pretty churlish to say, well, no,
14:56
S2: bugger off. The other point would be in support of
15:00
S2: this deployment, Samantha, is that is that in Australia's interests
15:04
S2: to allow the early resumption of commercial air traffic through
15:08
S2: the UAE, through Dubai, Abu Dhabi? Is it in Australia's
15:11
S2: interests to see the resumption of oil through the Straits
15:14
S2: of Hormuz? Not just oil, but LNG, fertiliser and all
15:18
S2: the rest? And if you think the answer is yes,
15:21
S2: then you would have to say surely then it's in
15:25
S2: the national interest for Australia to be making this this
15:27
S2: contribution in response to a request for support while it's
15:31
S2: under attack.
15:33
S1: For sure. I can see how it's in Australia's interest,
15:36
S1: but we know that Anthony Albanese and the Defence Department,
15:39
S1: they've been at pains to say that we're sort of
15:43
S1: not wholly involved in this conflict. You know, we're not.
15:45
S1: Protagonist Albanese has just said what we're doing, of course, is,
15:49
S1: like you've just said, providing for the defense of the
15:51
S1: UAE and of Australian citizens. He's saying the missiles that
15:57
S1: they've sent can only be literally used to hit drones
15:59
S1: and missiles. So it's purely defensive. But I just want
16:02
S1: to push you on this a little bit because I'm thinking, well,
16:05
S1: the Iranians do. They distinguish between, of course, defensive moves
16:09
S1: and offensive moves. I'm just going to quote here from
16:12
S1: defense analyst Michael Shoebridge who had it in our mastheads
16:16
S1: just yesterday. You know, we're best just admitting that we're
16:18
S1: now a part of this war, not just sitting in
16:20
S1: some quarantine corner. Offense and defense are just different sides
16:24
S1: of the coin of war. Like, would that not be
16:26
S1: how the Iranians see it?
16:28
S2: Well, the Iranians have burst out in a frenzy of
16:32
S2: violence against all sorts of targets, including civilian targets, many
16:37
S2: civilian targets throughout the Gulf states. So, of course, they'd
16:42
S2: see it as a legitimate target. The justification for hitting
16:45
S2: all the Gulf states is that they host US bases,
16:49
S2: therefore they're targets. So if an Australian Air Force plane
16:53
S2: turns up operating out of the UAE, it's of course
16:58
S2: it's a target for the Iranians. And if they get
17:00
S2: the opportunity and they have the munitions left, they'd be
17:04
S2: very happy to destroy it. They'd be very happy to
17:06
S2: kill the Australians. But why wouldn't they? I mean, we
17:10
S2: know that they've been operating hostile efforts against Australia, even
17:15
S2: here on our own soil for a long time. Last year,
17:19
S2: the Iranian ambassador was expelled by the Australian government because
17:24
S2: the government had uncovered that two terrorist attacks against Jewish
17:28
S2: targets in Melbourne had been orchestrated by the Iranian government.
17:33
S2: They have been waging undeclared war on our country. So
17:37
S2: for us to enter in the into the defence of
17:39
S2: the UAE against Iran is really just simply a continuation
17:44
S2: of the war that they had declared by other means
17:47
S2: that we're now joining in kinetic means in a very
17:50
S2: low risk and contained way. It doesn't compare with previous
17:54
S2: Australian engagements where it's joined with the US, for example,
17:58
S2: in Iraq, where we sent ground troops. Australia's not talking
18:01
S2: about and will not send ground troops anywhere near Iran
18:05
S2: in this deployment. It would be naive of us to
18:07
S2: say that we are not in a state of hostilities
18:10
S2: with Iran already. We have been at their instigation. This
18:14
S2: is part of Australia's response to that, and we need
18:16
S2: to know. We need to remember who our enemies are
18:20
S2: and who our friends are.
18:22
S1: Well, it's obviously a fast moving situation. So thank you
18:25
S1: so much, Peter, for your time.
18:27
S2: Always a pleasure to chat these things over with you, Samantha.
18:37
S1: In other news, today Melbourne has been crowned the best
18:40
S1: city in the world for 2026 by Time Out. It's
18:44
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S1: spot on the 50 Best Cities list, with the Victorian
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