Latest / Fulfilled with Rebecca Sheehan / Ep. 5 - Rejected, Not Ruined: Tabitha Panariso on Healing Like Jesus Did

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Ep. 5 - Rejected, Not Ruined: Tabitha Panariso on Healing Like Jesus Did · Fulfilled with Rebecca Sheehan

0:08
SPEAKER_01: Hey, everybody.
0:09
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Fulfilled.
0:11
SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Rebecca Sheehan.
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I love today's episode because it's all about finding hope and
0:16
healing in our
0:17
SPEAKER_01: broken world,
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SPEAKER_01: which is such a central aspect,
0:20
SPEAKER_01: of course,
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SPEAKER_01: of Christianity.
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SPEAKER_01: And that is what our guest's life mission is all about.
0:25
Christ-centered and trauma-informed therapist Tabitha Panariso
0:29
draws on the gospel
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SPEAKER_01: to help people overcome rejection and all sorts of trauma.
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SPEAKER_01: She also recently published a book on the topic called Loyal in His Love.
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SPEAKER_01: Tabitha Panariso, so glad to have you on the show today.
0:41
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
0:41
SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad to be here.
0:42
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, maybe we can get started with your background.
0:45
Have you always been a Christian or did you find Christ later
0:49
in life and how that
0:50
SPEAKER_01: led to Christ-centered therapy?
0:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
0:52
SPEAKER_00: You know, I did grow up in a Christian home.
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SPEAKER_00: My mom actually worked in the church for most of my life.
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SPEAKER_00: She was in the military and was a chaplain's assistant.
1:01
And so I spent most of my childhood just hanging out at church
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while my mom was
1:06
SPEAKER_00: preparing for events and setting up for services.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: in whatever military base we were at the time.
1:12
SPEAKER_00: But I would say that while I knew who Christ was at a young age,
1:16
I don't know that I really devoted my life to him until what I
1:20
would say was like a
1:21
hard beginning for me as a Christian was when I was 18 years
1:24
old and just felt this conviction,
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SPEAKER_00: kind of felt like I was looking down the barrel and saying,
1:29
SPEAKER_00: okay,
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either I can move into adulthood with Christ or I could do it
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without him.
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SPEAKER_00: And what is it that I want
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SPEAKER_00: to do here.
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SPEAKER_00: And so it was at 18 when I really said,
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SPEAKER_00: Lord,
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I want you to actually lord over my life and what I do with my
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daily actions.
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And from there,
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you know,
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it's funny,
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I didn't naturally fall into a ministry space.
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SPEAKER_00: I
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Spent most of my time as a school counselor working with kids
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kindergarten through
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SPEAKER_00: eighth grade for about six,
1:58
SPEAKER_00: seven years.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: I loved it.
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But what was hard about it was knowing that there was so much
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more I could offer
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SPEAKER_00: these kids that I was talking to that I legally didn't.
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SPEAKER_00: really couldn't share with them.
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SPEAKER_00: Wasn't able to publicly share my faith in that way in therapy sessions.
2:15
SPEAKER_00: Took a break for a little bit.
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SPEAKER_00: And during that time,
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I just myself went through such a hard season and was really
2:23
struggling to find a
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SPEAKER_00: therapist who shared the same values that I did.
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SPEAKER_00: Didn't really know where to look.
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Felt like it was just hard to even talk with churches or
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pastors and say,
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do you know anybody?
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SPEAKER_00: And they didn't know anyone.
2:36
SPEAKER_00: And so
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SPEAKER_00: I never thought I would go back into counseling,
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and I just felt this calling back into it with this specific
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conviction to be a
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therapist who is also Christ-centered so that I could occupy
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the space for other
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people that I had hoped for and longed for when I was looking
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for a therapist as well.
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Because I just knew how important it was to be able to look at
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our lives in a
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SPEAKER_00: holistic way,
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SPEAKER_00: not just from a mental health perspective,
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SPEAKER_00: but also from a spiritual perspective.
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SPEAKER_00: Because as believers, those things are so entangled.
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SPEAKER_00: And so here we are today.
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SPEAKER_00: I get to do that with so many of my clients, and it's such a gift.
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SPEAKER_01: Tell me a little bit about Christian therapy or Christ-centered therapy.
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SPEAKER_01: Is it its own type of therapy,
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SPEAKER_01: or is it just something that you infuse different types of therapy with?
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:21
SPEAKER_00: So without complicating things,
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SPEAKER_00: there is a group of therapists or counselors,
3:27
SPEAKER_00: actually,
3:27
SPEAKER_00: rather,
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SPEAKER_00: who call themselves biblical counselors or Christian counselors.
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And their sole focus is really to dive into biblical concepts
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and utilize that in therapy,
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SPEAKER_00: which I think is lovely.
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However,
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I actually went to school to get my master's degree in counseling.
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SPEAKER_00: And so when I say that I'm a Christ-centered therapist,
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what that means is that you are getting all of the same things
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that you would find
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SPEAKER_00: in regular therapy.
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SPEAKER_00: But I'm doing it from a foundation,
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SPEAKER_00: from an anchor of who Christ is,
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SPEAKER_00: what that means to us as believers,
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SPEAKER_00: and how that actually informs the way that we perceive healing in our own
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SPEAKER_00: transformation and health.
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SPEAKER_00: And so it really is just something I'm infusing into therapy.
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SPEAKER_00: When clients give me permission to do so,
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something that I'm really careful about is not creating a space
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of condemnation,
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but just creating a safe place where we can talk about theology
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in context of what
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SPEAKER_00: they're experiencing.
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So much of therapy is focusing on yourself and your own healing
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and things that
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SPEAKER_01: have happened to you in the past.
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SPEAKER_01: But so much of Christianity is so selfless.
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I read Mere Christianity a couple years ago,
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and this quote really stuck with me.
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SPEAKER_01: C.S.
4:37
Lewis said,
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the very first step is to try to forget about the self altogether.
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SPEAKER_01: Your real new self will come when you are looking at him.
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So how is focusing on yourself not self-indulgent and not sort
4:52
of anti-Christian?
4:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
4:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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Well,
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the way that I look at it is that who we are was created and
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formed by God.
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SPEAKER_00: And so certainly when an artist creates a masterpiece,
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SPEAKER_00: when we look at the art,
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SPEAKER_00: we see the fingerprint of the creator,
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SPEAKER_00: right?
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SPEAKER_00: And so when we look at ourselves,
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SPEAKER_00: we aren't looking at ourselves as the solution to our problems.
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SPEAKER_00: We're looking at ourselves in a way of seeing God in us,
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SPEAKER_00: how God has created us to see that fully and
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SPEAKER_00: instead of in parts or in its brokenness.
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And so we want to be able to understand how are we fulfilling
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his purpose for us?
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SPEAKER_00: And what does it look like for our lives to glorify him,
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SPEAKER_00: to honor him,
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SPEAKER_00: but also to embody the resurrection,
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SPEAKER_00: to embody hope and love and grace.
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SPEAKER_00: And so I think when we are looking at ourselves through that lens,
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as God is the means to the end,
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that he is the solution,
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that really changes things.
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SPEAKER_01: And it's just so much more positive with this end goal.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it just changes the lens, right?
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I think that's why when we think about self-help books or all
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of this literature,
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SPEAKER_00: right,
6:00
SPEAKER_00: about how can we improve ourselves?
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SPEAKER_00: Ultimately,
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the reason why that's so unfulfilling is because we want to be
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enough for our own healing.
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SPEAKER_00: We want to find the solution to
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within ourselves but the difference is we're looking to find
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the solution in god
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and because the holy spirit dwells in us right because our
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lives are so entangled
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with our creator we can find god within the way that he created
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us and it's so
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freeing to know that we don't have to be the solution to our
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problems right
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SPEAKER_01: That is true.
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I feel like there's so much pressure that we put on ourselves
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if something bad
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SPEAKER_01: happens to just get over it or move on.
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SPEAKER_01: But I always have this image of God just sitting with us in our pain.
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SPEAKER_01: He's not saying get over it.
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SPEAKER_01: Like we're harder on ourselves almost than he is.
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SPEAKER_00: Oh, 100%.
6:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: We have forgotten the grace that he extends us.
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SPEAKER_00: We have forgotten how to extend that to ourselves in those situations.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: I feel like your form of therapy also circumvents or transcends the whole
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SPEAKER_01: victimhood thing that we see in culture nowadays,
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SPEAKER_01: where people sort of celebrate their victimhood as a badge of honor.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I see why we've gotten there, right?
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SPEAKER_00: In American culture specifically,
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we've come through a lot of generations where we aren't allowed
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to be hurting.
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SPEAKER_00: We're not allowed to say things are bad.
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We're more inclined to pretend like everything's okay and
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pretend like we got it all.
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And so I think like a lot of things,
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we pendulum swing from one extreme to the other.
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And now we've swung over to,
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well,
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these are all the things that are wrong with me.
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SPEAKER_00: And this is why I am the way I am.
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SPEAKER_00: And there's no room for changing.
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SPEAKER_00: Like, this is just it, right?
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What I try to do in sessions with people is,
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yeah,
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let's acknowledge the pain.
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SPEAKER_00: Let's acknowledge the suffering.
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SPEAKER_00: We might have to sit here for...
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months or even a year you know but then the hope of christ is
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to be able to swing
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back more to the middle which is this understanding of okay
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well how does my life
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get to look different now how do i get to grow how do i get to
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transform because
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christ does sit with us but he certainly doesn't leave us there
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either he wants to
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take our hand pick us up and move us along to the next thing so
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how do you get from
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SPEAKER_01: that point of just sitting in your grief to
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SPEAKER_01: starting to live with it and work past it?
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SPEAKER_00: That feels like such a complicated question.
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Really where I sit with clients is grappling with the
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unresolved questions they
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SPEAKER_00: have that come from that grief.
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SPEAKER_00: And sometimes that's questions they have for God.
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SPEAKER_00: You know, the one that probably 100% of us have asked is like, why?
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SPEAKER_00: Why is there pain and suffering in this world?
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SPEAKER_00: Why did this have to happen to me?
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SPEAKER_00: And ultimately,
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I think where people can come out of that is often just a place
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of acceptance for
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SPEAKER_00: the things that we can't understand,
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SPEAKER_00: for the mysteriousness of who God is and how God engages in our life.
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SPEAKER_00: And with acceptance, hope for something better, right?
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SPEAKER_00: Whether that's the eternal hope of what comes after being here forever.
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on earth or just hope in general for what life can look like
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even with that loss
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knowing that we can experience pain and suffering and also
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experience hope and so
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it's a lot of existential grappling of those heavy and hard
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questions that outside
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SPEAKER_00: of therapy i think a lot of times we just don't let there be room to ask
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And so that's the honor I have is being able to make space for
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those questions that
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maybe other people in our life just aren't comfortable with
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talking about because
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SPEAKER_00: it's just too hard sometimes to go there.
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One thing that really helps me is knowing that God already
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knows everything in my heart.
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SPEAKER_01: So I might as well just reveal it to myself.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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And then the relief of actually expressing that maybe out loud
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or through prayer.
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It just feels like a burden is taken away from you when you can
10:00
just say it instead
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SPEAKER_00: of hiding it.
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SPEAKER_01: All right.
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SPEAKER_01: So C.S.
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SPEAKER_01: Lewis, maybe talk therapy is not self-indulgent.
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SPEAKER_01: I think it actually could bring us closer to God.
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SPEAKER_00: Good.
10:10
SPEAKER_00: I'm just saying that's my argument.
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So switching gears a little bit,
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let's talk about your new book published in January,
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right?
10:17
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
10:17
SPEAKER_00: So it's a book about rejection and abandonment and betrayal.
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SPEAKER_00: What it is, is it's my testimony in a couple of short words.
10:26
SPEAKER_00: I'm kidding.
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SPEAKER_00: It felt like a lot longer than that.
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SPEAKER_00: It's just the story of how God worked through my heart
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when I was experiencing just multiple forms of rejection
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throughout my life,
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SPEAKER_00: how rejection really formed me,
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how for some time I let it define me and how I moved past that
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and allowed it to be
10:48
more of something that brought me to a new life that
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transformed me instead of just
10:52
SPEAKER_00: keeping me in a place of just,
10:54
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
10:55
unable to relate to other people or even really connect with
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God the way that I
10:59
SPEAKER_00: wanted to.
11:00
SPEAKER_00: And so
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SPEAKER_00: It's a testimony first,
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but it's also just the thing that I wrote because I knew that
11:05
there wasn't anything
11:06
SPEAKER_00: else out there.
11:07
And I wanted other people who were experiencing what I was
11:09
experiencing to have
11:10
something meaningful to hold on to in those times where
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rejection occurs because
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SPEAKER_00: it's just not something we talk about a lot.
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SPEAKER_00: That is a really good point.
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SPEAKER_01: It's almost embarrassing, right?
11:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:21
It's like you think that there's something wrong with you that
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you were rejected.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
11:26
SPEAKER_01: And I think that...
11:27
SPEAKER_01: We hold on to that a lot.
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SPEAKER_01: Like it's hard to get over rejection.
11:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would say that it's possible.
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SPEAKER_00: I would say that I have gotten over rejection.
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It scarred me,
11:37
but I'm seeing those scars heal in ways that I didn't think was possible.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean,
11:43
SPEAKER_00: if we're believers in Christ who is resurrected,
11:46
SPEAKER_00: right,
11:46
SPEAKER_00: then we have to believe that anything is possible.
11:49
SPEAKER_00: is something to be healed from,
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that there's nothing that can stand in the way of the power of
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Christ in our life.
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SPEAKER_00: And that's really what this book is about,
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SPEAKER_00: is how the power of Christ is really what can heal us from those scars.
12:01
SPEAKER_01: What was the most impactful rejection that you've endured?
12:05
I'm assuming you don't mind talking about it since you wrote a
12:08
book about it.
12:08
SPEAKER_00: You're right.
12:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
12:11
so probably what really is at the core of this book is how when
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I was really young,
12:17
SPEAKER_00: my mom and dad got a divorce.
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SPEAKER_00: My dad was an alcoholic.
12:19
SPEAKER_00: And so my mom made a really difficult decision in order to preserve,
12:23
SPEAKER_00: I think,
12:23
SPEAKER_00: me and to preserve her.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: And my biological dad stayed in my life for a couple of years.
12:29
SPEAKER_00: But when I was around five or six, he just completely disappeared.
12:33
without a word um and for the bulk of my life then i didn't
12:38
have a relationship
12:39
with him at all didn't hear from him um the last time i heard
12:43
from him when it was
12:44
when i was 16 and he was very drunk and you know unfortunately
12:49
he passed away i
12:50
think a couple of years ago and so that's probably been the
12:53
most significant story
12:55
of rejection i have and really what makes me feel so much
12:59
empathy towards those who
13:00
SPEAKER_00: experience rejection
13:01
SPEAKER_00: Because when you experience something like that,
13:04
SPEAKER_00: a parent especially,
13:05
SPEAKER_00: someone who should love you or have this obligation to you,
13:10
to experience them walking away and then to hear other people
13:15
talk about rejection
13:16
SPEAKER_00: as if it's meant to be this gift in your life.
13:21
SPEAKER_00: It's meant to be this wonderful thing that redirects you.
13:24
SPEAKER_00: It's really difficult to sit with that and reconcile that.
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SPEAKER_01: And especially when it's so significant, like what you went through.
13:31
SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
13:32
SPEAKER_00: As a kid, for sure.
13:33
SPEAKER_00: And so,
13:34
SPEAKER_00: you know,
13:34
I really needed a way of making sense of that in a way that
13:38
wasn't just with
13:38
SPEAKER_00: platitudes or quotes from the Internet that really just,
13:43
SPEAKER_00: for a lack of better word,
13:44
SPEAKER_00: kind of gaslights the pain that you experience through that rejection.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that makes total sense.
13:50
SPEAKER_01: Like pruning.
13:51
SPEAKER_01: Oh,
13:51
SPEAKER_01: well,
13:52
SPEAKER_01: God takes these things out of your life,
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SPEAKER_01: these people out of your life so you can grow.
13:55
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
13:55
SPEAKER_01: God bless the broken road.
13:57
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there are just so many of those that do make sense in some cases.
14:01
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, when you're talking about such significant rejection.
14:04
And when you think of parents,
14:06
I mean,
14:06
there's so many analogies,
14:08
how God is our father.
14:10
SPEAKER_01: So when your father is anything but.
14:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:12
I can't imagine what that was like,
14:14
just realizing that this is not like how things should be.
14:17
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
14:18
I certainly felt like my relationship with the Lord struggled
14:23
because of this
14:25
absence of my biological dad and really having to work through
14:28
that and recognize
14:29
SPEAKER_00: that God is not
14:32
us he's not human he doesn't act human god is not my biological
14:36
dad and what would
14:37
it look like to live a life knowing god as faithful and loving
14:41
and kind even when
14:43
my dad was not those things are there certain examples in the
14:47
bible of rejection
14:48
that you think are most powerful or most applicable to people's
14:53
lives i mean
14:53
SPEAKER_01: obviously jesus is like the big one
14:56
SPEAKER_00: It's interesting because once I started studying rejection,
15:00
SPEAKER_00: especially through the Bible,
15:01
it really became clear to me that the majority of people that
15:06
we read about
15:07
SPEAKER_00: experienced rejection.
15:09
SPEAKER_00: I think about David living in caves, hiding from the king, right?
15:16
SPEAKER_00: That he was being rejected on a regular basis.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: I think about the woman at the well and how she felt rejected.
15:23
SPEAKER_00: I think about Joseph and how his brothers literally left him for dead.
15:27
So there's story after story of people who are disappointed by
15:33
the people in their life.
15:35
I think about the woman who bled for 13 years and what that
15:39
life must have been like,
15:40
SPEAKER_00: knowing that other people could not be near her,
15:43
SPEAKER_00: could not tend to her needs,
15:45
SPEAKER_00: and the way that she reaches for Jesus,
15:47
SPEAKER_00: reaches for his coat.
15:48
SPEAKER_00: And so
15:49
SPEAKER_00: I really find comfort in that,
15:51
SPEAKER_00: that this thing that our society doesn't want to talk about,
15:55
SPEAKER_00: the Bible is very clear.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: This is a part of people's lives.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: And this is what the Lord does in response to them.
16:01
SPEAKER_00: He meets us in the margins.
16:03
SPEAKER_00: He meets us in the places where people forsake us.
16:06
SPEAKER_00: And
16:07
SPEAKER_00: That's just so kind of him to include that so clearly,
16:10
SPEAKER_00: you know,
16:11
in this word that we get to read so that when other people
16:13
aren't talking about it,
16:15
SPEAKER_00: God's like,
16:15
SPEAKER_00: I'm talking about it.
16:16
SPEAKER_00: This is the story.
16:18
SPEAKER_00: And like you said, it's the story of what led Jesus to the cross, too.
16:21
SPEAKER_00: And so even more so,
16:23
knowing that our Savior suffered under the same things that we
16:26
suffer is just of
16:28
SPEAKER_00: great comfort.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: What do you think is the most impactful part of your book that really
16:33
SPEAKER_01: differentiates it from other self-help books?
16:36
SPEAKER_00: What I really think sets this book apart is,
16:38
SPEAKER_00: well,
16:38
SPEAKER_00: one,
16:38
SPEAKER_00: I talk about how compassion changes everything for us,
16:41
SPEAKER_00: but two,
16:42
SPEAKER_00: lands squarely on the resurrection of Christ.
16:46
It's fascinating to realize that Jesus's death wasn't actually
16:50
really remarkable
16:51
SPEAKER_00: when we think about the context of that time.
16:54
SPEAKER_00: Crucifixions were happening all of the time to all sorts of people.
16:58
SPEAKER_00: What makes Christ's story stands out isn't necessarily his death.
17:02
SPEAKER_00: It's the fact that he rose again three days later.
17:05
SPEAKER_00: And how does that change our life?
17:06
SPEAKER_00: And so what I want people to take away from the book is when we live in a
17:12
SPEAKER_00: resurrected storyline,
17:14
SPEAKER_00: that changes the way that we heal and it changes the way we treat people.
17:19
SPEAKER_00: So just as Christ shows compassion to others,
17:22
SPEAKER_00: even though they forsake him and reject him,
17:25
SPEAKER_00: we can also do the same thing too.
17:27
SPEAKER_00: So there's this empowerment at the end of like
17:29
SPEAKER_00: This isn't just about our hearts being changed and healed.
17:32
It's also about how then do we get to engage and interact with
17:35
the people who
17:36
SPEAKER_00: consistently turn their backs on us.
17:38
SPEAKER_01: What does that look like specifically?
17:40
SPEAKER_01: Like when you live that resurrected life after all the pain?
17:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:45
This is where I go gentle because I know that it can be hard to
17:49
imagine ourselves
17:50
SPEAKER_00: loving someone who has hurt us.
17:52
I give a pretty concrete example of how I wrote a letter to my
17:56
dad when I was about 30.
17:59
SPEAKER_00: And in that letter,
17:59
SPEAKER_00: essentially I forgave him and just said,
18:02
SPEAKER_00: I want you to know that I have nothing but grace and forgiveness for you.
18:06
SPEAKER_00: And I sent that letter to him.
18:08
SPEAKER_00: And that was my way of practicing resurrection.
18:11
SPEAKER_00: That was my way of extending generosity to someone who has hurt me.
18:16
SPEAKER_00: And so I share some examples of like,
18:17
maybe it looks like just praying for someone who you might
18:20
consider an enemy,
18:22
SPEAKER_00: right?
18:22
SPEAKER_00: Thinking more positively about them, trying to understand their story.
18:28
SPEAKER_00: It might be someone who you see every day,
18:30
SPEAKER_00: you're willing to actually look them in the eyes and say,
18:32
SPEAKER_00: good morning or hello.
18:34
And so there's a lot of ways that we can embody that through
18:37
acts of generosity and
18:38
SPEAKER_00: just like leaning into them in a way that shares our love for
18:44
Not powered through what they did,
18:46
but powered through what Christ did for us.
18:50
Sort of take some of that power away from them and away from
18:53
what they did when
18:54
SPEAKER_01: you're able to show compassion and forgive them.
18:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
18:58
SPEAKER_01: Tim Keller wrote an amazing book on forgiveness.
19:00
SPEAKER_01: I think it was one of his last books before he died.
19:02
And he talks about how forgiveness is only possible because of
19:06
the vertical forgiveness,
19:07
SPEAKER_01: so to speak.
19:08
SPEAKER_01: Like the fact that we are forgiven first.
19:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:12
SPEAKER_01: For our sins.
19:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:13
SPEAKER_00: Not going to argue with Tim Keller.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: He always kills it, it seems like.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:20
How do you get people to not blame themselves for what's
19:23
happened to them?
19:24
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
19:25
Yeah,
19:25
that goes back to that piece of self-compassion I was sharing about.
19:28
Probably the most meaningful thing that I experienced in
19:31
healing was to be able to
19:34
SPEAKER_00: extend compassion to myself,
19:36
SPEAKER_00: to extend kindness to myself.
19:39
And that really started with looking at how I was speaking to
19:42
myself just on a regular basis.
19:44
SPEAKER_00: We all have an inner voice.
19:46
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes that voice is critical because it's self-protective.
19:49
SPEAKER_00: As you mentioned earlier, a lot of our actions are self-protective.
19:53
We're afraid to forgive ourselves because we think we're
19:57
striving to be better.
19:59
And so really acknowledging that voice and understanding why it
20:03
exists and even
20:04
SPEAKER_00: just showing some compassion to that voice of like,
20:06
SPEAKER_00: oh,
20:06
I know that you're doing this because you think it's going to
20:09
help protect me.
20:10
But then learning to exchange that voice with a voice of
20:14
kindness is transformative.
20:17
SPEAKER_00: And so for some people that can be hard at first,
20:19
SPEAKER_00: I think it starts with thinking about who's kind to you in your own life,
20:22
SPEAKER_00: who has the most encouragement to give you.
20:25
And you can practice using their voice for a time being until
20:29
you gain your own
20:31
SPEAKER_00: voice and how to be compassionate and kind.
20:34
I've actually tried that before,
20:35
like speak to myself like my best friend would speak to me.
20:38
And I always come back to,
20:40
man,
20:40
like I am way meaner to myself than anyone else would be.
20:45
SPEAKER_01: It's hard to kind of sit with that.
20:47
SPEAKER_01: It also points towards false idols.
20:51
It just kind of reveals that we probably care too much what
20:54
other people think or
20:55
SPEAKER_01: we care about perfectionism when all we really need is God's love.
21:01
Yeah,
21:02
my perspective of that has changed slightly a little bit since
21:06
I wrote the book.
21:06
I talk about how the reason rejection hurts is because we were
21:10
created for community.
21:11
SPEAKER_00: We were created for connection.
21:13
We see that in the Bible,
21:14
that we are meant to be together as one unified.
21:17
So the reason rejection hurts is because it's unnatural to the
21:21
system in which we
21:22
SPEAKER_00: were created for.
21:23
SPEAKER_00: And so that's why the pain exists.
21:25
SPEAKER_00: I think we have to be careful about not shaming ourselves for
21:29
SPEAKER_00: caring about what people think,
21:31
SPEAKER_00: because I think that care exists because we know community is needed.
21:35
SPEAKER_00: However,
21:36
SPEAKER_00: your rights,
21:37
SPEAKER_00: and I do talk about this,
21:38
about how we can platform people or position people above
21:42
caring about what God
21:43
thinks and really just rightfully positioning people where they
21:47
should be versus
21:48
SPEAKER_00: putting them above,
21:49
which then does make us complicit to navigate situations based
21:54
on them and not on
21:55
SPEAKER_00: who God has created us to be.
21:58
That's really interesting and kind of a comfort to know that
22:01
it's not so black and white.
22:03
SPEAKER_01: It's when you put those people up on a pedestal above God.
22:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:06
SPEAKER_01: That's the problem.
22:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because again, it's that less condemnation, right?
22:10
Like I just think back to so many years of my life of just
22:13
caring constantly what people think.
22:16
But that really was coming from a place of like,
22:18
I just want to be accepted.
22:19
SPEAKER_00: I just want to be seen and known.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: And that's such a core of who we are as humans.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: So why are we trying to completely...
22:28
disregard that because I would say on the extreme version of
22:31
that people who don't
22:33
care at all what people think to me that's also unhealthy right
22:38
like there is a
22:39
solid place I think maybe in the middle that is not on either
22:42
of those extremes
22:44
That makes me worry a lot about the next generation growing up
22:48
in a social media world,
22:49
SPEAKER_01: you know,
22:50
where you get likes for posting bikini pictures instead of more
22:53
profound things.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
22:56
I think it's really just finding Jesus and making Jesus the
23:01
Lord of your life
23:01
SPEAKER_00: because it really is our motivation that changes everything for us.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm noticing in my oldest,
23:07
SPEAKER_00: who is entering into preteen,
23:08
SPEAKER_00: he has begun to care more of what people think.
23:13
SPEAKER_00: And it's like,
23:13
SPEAKER_00: what does it look like to be able to have both in a healthy way,
23:18
SPEAKER_00: to not be held back from our potential?
23:22
SPEAKER_00: And so I think knowing who God is,
23:25
SPEAKER_00: is the thing that we can really strive for because it helps us to decide,
23:29
SPEAKER_00: is this something I should care about?
23:31
SPEAKER_00: Or is this something that I should let go and release or change?
23:36
SPEAKER_00: And I think that helps us have discernment.
23:38
SPEAKER_00: I think that's the most powerful thing we can have.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: And my hope for the next generation is a healthy level of discernment.
23:45
If only all therapy could be Christ-centered like yours,
23:48
we'd all be in a better place.
23:49
SPEAKER_00: Oh, man.
23:50
SPEAKER_00: We have to know Jesus first, right?
23:52
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that is really the hope of it all.
23:54
SPEAKER_00: And hopefully then as believers,
23:56
we all still struggle and have problems then to meet someone
23:59
who can sit with them
23:59
SPEAKER_00: in that and still point them to Christ.
24:01
SPEAKER_00: That would be a gift for sure.
24:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
24:04
SPEAKER_01: it is such a gift and such a comfort to have Jesus as we go through these
24:08
SPEAKER_01: challenges in life.
24:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: So wrapping up,
24:11
I love to ask my interviewee if there's a Bible verse that
24:14
you'd like to share,
24:15
SPEAKER_01: either one that's been valuable to you or about rejection and healing,
24:19
SPEAKER_01: that sort of thing.
24:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
24:21
this morning I was reminded of one as I was reading in my daily
24:25
devotions and it
24:25
SPEAKER_00: was Hebrews 4,
24:28
SPEAKER_00: 16,
24:28
SPEAKER_00: when it says,
24:29
let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace
24:33
that we may receive
24:34
SPEAKER_00: mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
24:37
And I've just been thinking a lot about how the way I draw near
24:42
to the Lord,
24:43
SPEAKER_00: the way that I look to him for provision and for guidance,
24:47
SPEAKER_00: that is what helps me
24:49
SPEAKER_00: be who I need to be from day to day,
24:51
SPEAKER_00: regardless of what I face or the people who don't validate me,
24:56
SPEAKER_00: that while I might not be able to always be bold in the face of others,
25:02
I can with confidence know that the Lord will give me what I
25:06
need to continue on.
25:08
SPEAKER_00: And so that's just been
25:10
really helpful just in the last year looking at what the world
25:13
is going through but
25:14
SPEAKER_00: also being a mom working just all the different things that all of us are
25:19
constantly juggling that is what fills me up and helps me to
25:23
endure and to keep
25:24
going i love that and yeah it is definitely a difficult season
25:27
especially as kids
25:28
go from that young age to the pre-teen years so yes keep up the
25:34
good work so
25:36
tabitha people want to connect with you or check out your book
25:39
where should they go
25:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I am on Instagram at Tabitha Panariso.
25:43
SPEAKER_00: I also have a sub stack.
25:45
SPEAKER_00: And for those of you who don't know what that is,
25:47
SPEAKER_00: it's basically just another web hosting of like blogs and essays.
25:51
And you could just type in Tabitha Panariso Substack and you'll
25:54
find mine there.
25:55
SPEAKER_00: It's called Unseen Things.
25:57
And it's where I try to do more of this,
25:59
talking about theology and mental health and life.
26:03
SPEAKER_00: And as far as the book goes, it's available wherever you can buy books.
26:06
For the most part,
26:06
I know it's on at Barnes & Noble,
26:08
Target Online,
26:09
and of course,
26:10
Amazon.
26:11
SPEAKER_00: But I'm an advocate for libraries and local bookstores.
26:14
SPEAKER_00: And so you can always request to get a copy there too.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
26:19
Any other books on the horizon or anything that you're looking
26:23
to tackle in the near future?
26:48
SPEAKER_00: enjoy and delight in how it's helped and impacted people.
26:51
SPEAKER_00: So that's the plan, I think, for right now.
26:54
SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
26:54
SPEAKER_01: And it's just amazing how when you bear your soul like that,
26:57
SPEAKER_01: it sort of emboldens others to do the same.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:01
SPEAKER_01: So thank you for bearing your soul.
27:03
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, what you went through sounds like it was very difficult.
27:05
Thank you for making this today for me to bear a little bit
27:08
more of my soul.
27:09
Thank you.
27:11
SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you so much for coming on the show today.
27:14
SPEAKER_01: I loved all of your valuable insights.
27:17
SPEAKER_01: And thank you to all of you, our amazing listeners, for tuning in.
27:20
SPEAKER_01: Your support means a lot.
27:21
SPEAKER_01: So if you enjoyed today's conversation,
27:23
SPEAKER_01: be sure to subscribe and leave a review wherever you get your podcasts.
27:28
Stay inspired,
27:29
keep trusting in God's plan for your life,
27:31
and we'll see you next time.