Latest / The 238 Update / Duke’s Up! w/ Joyce Howell

Transcript

Duke’s Up! w/ Joyce Howell · The 238 Update

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the 238 Update, the voice of the workers who protect the environment.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Maria Robin Somerville, host and producer of this podcast.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: For the next few weeks, I'll be sitting down with experts to explore the current state of affairs in Council 238, the union that represents the Environmental Protection Agency.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: On Tuesday, September 29th, Council 238 filed a lawsuit against the administration, alleging that the termination of the collective bargaining agreement is unlawful.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Today I'm joined by Joyce Howell, former vice president of Council 238 and chief negotiator on that collective bargaining agreement that's under attack.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Howell retired a few months ago after over 30 years of service to the agency and joined me to share some wisdom from her years of legal advocacy within the unit.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: So welcome, Joyce, to the 238 update.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: We're really happy to have you here.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: For people listening, we're recording this on Wednesday, September 30th, which is the day after the Council 238 has filed a lawsuit against the administration over the termination of the collective bargaining agreement.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I would like to know, Joyce, what are you thinking about all this?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: How are you feeling?
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, one day post.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: I know you're retired, but this is the work that you did for the EPA for so many years.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm very happy that AFG Council 238 is fighting back on what was a bulldozing of the law with regard to the EPA workplace and protection of EPA workers.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that they are really they're, you know, calling out the administration, telling them they broke the law and that this isn't right.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Honestly, it's a little personal to me.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: I, you know, was the chief negotiator of that contract, and you know, we worked so hard to ensure that the best work working place, why, why, why, why would anyone want to do that?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: The reason is that EPA workers are so effective and that when you give them optimum conditions, it benefits the entire country.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Something I've been wondering about is, you know, most people listening to this and who are the bargaining members will understand why this is detrimental to people in the unit.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Look, we've seen people lose their jobs, be relocated, their rights are stripped.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I'm curious why people who maybe aren't EPA members should care.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: What does this mean for the country?
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: What kind of other adverse effects trickle beyond just this workplace?
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um when you put EPA workers in a place where they feel like they have to be compromised either for a political objective or they can't speak out because some popular podcaster is making who has no scientific background is making a call on, you know, clean water quality or air quality or the standards by which they are enforced has knows nothing more than the science that they probably read on the back of a cereal box growing up, that there is uh the technical aspects that affect drinking water and clean air.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: For example, here's a good one, where they just basically threw the PFAS standards out the window, right?
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: And we still don't know all the effects of you know PFAS on the human body.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: Now, of course, this is from the same group of folks who thinks it's okay to inject bleach into your system uh, you know, when you have COVID.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: These are the people that are, and I don't know how they get a free pass on those, responsible for one million COVID deaths.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: One million people in the United States died from COVID because of these people.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: So why is it important?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it once again, no one realizes what EPA does until something goes wrong.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm thinking right now, what, about 325 million people in the in this country, right?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody turned on a tap today and was able to drink the water out of the tap.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what how do you think that happens?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: Really?
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: Because the alternative is going down to your nearest body of water, getting a bucket and bringing it home.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: So you tell me what the difference is.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like what people don't realize is these regulatory bodies are responsible for the water we drink, the food we eat, our literal air, you know.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: I wonder if people made the made the connection this year between, you know, getting lettuce at the grocery store and the rolling back of regulations and enforcement.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it it's it's also been two-tiered.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: They've taken the people away from doing the job, and then they've taken away the rules.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so of course, it's not industry's job to to worry about, you know, what's in their food and stuff like that.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: It we had to create a whole regulatory structure to make sure that that happens.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: So it's this balancing act that's worked very well for what, you know, since post-World War II.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to zone in on one part of the lawsuit that notes that, quote, it has included an important new first-of-its kind scientific integrity provision, which prevents the agency from retaliating against scientists whose findings differ from the political aims of the current president and protects a core value of the EPA, that policy follows the science and not vice versa.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm curious if you could elaborate more on the scientific integrity piece of this.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: Well, um, I'm really glad you quoted the policy follows the science.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: The beauty and the wonder in my job when I had it was working with scientists.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: Because they deal in the facts.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: They don't make up.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they basically they deal in the facts, and then that dictates what do we need to do.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, if PFAS is being shown to cause cancer in individuals, if PFAS is being shown to be like present in every living thing on earth, then maybe we need to take a look about it.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe we need to regulate it, right?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and they we find this out by doing pure science.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: Well, they dismantled a real gem.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, if you can put it in a vault as priceless, ORD, right?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: And um dismantling that, I don't think people understand uh what it was, but you know, let's say we just went down, you know, to your local town, we burned down the library.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: How would you feel about it?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's about the equivalent of it.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: I know that you've retired, but I'm curious for uh a little behind-the-scenes look of what negotiating the original collective bargaining agreement looked like on your end, and and also if there are any things that you were especially proud of winning in those.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, you mentioned the scientific integrity and the fact that, you know, I listened to what President Justin Chen talked about in the podcast, and he mentioned how scientific integrity was cited as a threat to national security.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, this is such a smash and grab type administration.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, uh, and he was laughing, you know, because where's the threat to national security?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: Well, the scientific integrity article requires accountability by management on their scientific decisions, um, if challenged, right, by staff who are actually doing the science.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's typical of these people that, you know, their claim of national security is their currency for for doing everything, including putting up a monument to Trump, right?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's one of the standout articles, and they went for it.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: It is to them as well, because they went for it right away.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think in a few other things that we had in there that were unique, and also we added them in anticipation that um there could be a Trump, too.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, one was DEI.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: We had a DEI article in there that actually required the agency to do pilot studies because under Biden, the agency had identified their internal bias in hiring.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: And having identified it, then what do you do about it?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: And we were pushing the agency to move forward on some pilot projects to help them identify in their HR practices and selection practices uh ways to to counter bias in selection.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I just want to confirm the UNESCO never sued the administration before, right?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you know, we we did not.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we used the grievance process when it existed, but you know, that's been taken away.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it's um if the recourse that the contract would require us uh to do would be go through the grievance or the merit boards, all that's been wiped out, as if the laws aren't in the books.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: They just acted like they they're not there.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: So when you take away all the recourse that are provided by the regulations, then you proceed as if that recourse doesn't exist because it's it's no longer recognized by the administration.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it'd be really unprecedented historical move.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it is.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: I have to say, uh, you know, if I was a EPA employee right now and not a dues paying member of the union, my question to anybody like that is why aren't you?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: When you see the fight that's being made on your behalf, why aren't you all in on that?
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: I understand the the tendency to be afraid because one would be fired and lose their job.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: And people have financial obligations, yeah, you know, student loans, mortgages, all those things, kids.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I understand that.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um but uh it's it's never been shown that compliance protects you.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: I know that you know this hasn't happened before, filing a lawsuit against the administration now that we don't have the grievance process, but I'm curious, do you have any sense of what happens next?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think this is I actually for me as a litigator, this is the fun part, discovery.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: And for people who don't know, can you say what discovery is?
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: Council 238 is going to be asked, be able to ask questions that the administration must answer under oath.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: Either they're gonna have to produce individuals of the administration who will be subject to deposition and will answer questions.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: They will be able to give them interrogatories which will require written responses.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: They will be asked to produce documents that justify the decisions that they made in closing the contract and ignoring the law.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, being asked, you know, what is your factual and legal basis for doing that?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: Discovery is a great way to ask questions that are, once again, accountability questions.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, why did you ignore the law?
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it could you could just go on and on.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a good position for the administration to be in with effective discovery.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, do you have any words of encouragement or wisdom from everything you've seen in your career to members of the council?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: Once during my career, I was going through a particularly difficult time.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it was a case, it was a management, and my wife would insist on driving me to the training station every morning so that as I was getting out of the car, the last thing she said to me every day was, Dukes up.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: Dukes up.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so I love that.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, duke up.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: I told that story to everyone and actually had pins made up.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, oh, actually, I still have one here.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I had some made up and gave them out to people at uh Council 238.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: I say dukes up, but I actually now I'm like, you know, fight back.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: Stand up, fight back every way you can.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, personally that's what I've been doing in terms of like every day I've decided to do something to get Democrats elected.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: So, whether it's postcarding, I do a lot of canvassing, I'm working with like three or four different organizations.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: I started in January working with uh Swing Left, doing research to assist them in um developing uh in their target districts, developing things to work to help candidates, and I continue to do that.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: I almost feel like I have my real my regular job back.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm you know so busy.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: But I was gonna say, you don't sound very retired to me.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: Well, in my view, you know, democracy is at stake, and the people from EPO are on the forefront of that.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: But Timothy Snyder wrote a book.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it was called On Tyranny.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: On Tyranny.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: And in it, he one of the chapters he wrote, one of the ways to preserve democracy is to participate in a union.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: And that is actually the reason why I got more involved in our union.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that if you're working for the government, you are in the front lines, you are in the trenches.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: So hang in there, but also fight back in your private life.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: Do everything you can to get Democrats elected and participate in the union.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: I like I said, if you are not a dues-paying member of the union, my question is, why aren't you?
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_02: And see if you can give yours give an honest answer to that.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: Great.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: What a nice note to end on.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for the opportunity to kind of share my thoughts on this.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you to Joyce Howell for joining us on this episode of the 238 update.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to become a member, go to joinafge.org and check out the council website at AFGE238.org.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: This podcast is brought to you by members of AFGE Council 238 and its affiliated locals.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: You can subscribe to the 238 update on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening.