Latest / True Crime and Wine Time / S5E1 Two Children, One Dark Secret_ The James Bulger Story

Transcript

S5E1 Two Children, One Dark Secret_ The James Bulger Story · True Crime and Wine Time

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, mm hmmm. Hello, we're back. We are back back,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Like I don't know why Jack's back.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: It's been a minute, right, I mean.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: For a few more than that, Yeah, for sure. Just
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: a lot happening. You know, the hiatus went a little
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: longer than we meant for it, but it was intentional,
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: it was intentional. A lot has happened. It has to
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: think about the last time.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: This is because of the calci.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's right, the cow top.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: It turned my hair. It's not dream. It really happens.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: It's not. Yeah no, yeah, since then, you've got prettier
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: and I got heavier. So but but I stopped smoking,
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: so there's that. Yeah.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: Hey, I just I would rather gain a few little
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: pounds or ounces in your lungs. Maybe. I don't know
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: what to say about that one.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: Don't worry, I will lose it all on the ship.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: Okay. You you know, we've got some exciting news coming up,
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: and so we both are going to need to be
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: in tip top shape.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: We do, and we are, and hopefully that is indeed
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: going to help me out. That's I'm really really hoping
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: for that.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, I have to say, at least we meet
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: a week. So it's not like we haven't seen each other.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: But I love you and all that, but I've kind
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: of missed everybody else too.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I me too. You know that the
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: there there is something about the interaction that we get
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: and the performance and all of that and sharing news
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: and things that just kind of gets me moving and
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: excited about life. And without it, I was there were
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: some there were some really not funny days for me.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: So me too.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: And remind everybody to like subscribe hit the notification bell
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: so that way you'll get reminders when we're on.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: Right. Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. Would you like to do
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: some of the lovely uh the the two announcements that
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: are here that would.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: Be awesome, I would love do the first one is
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: and if you follow us on social media, you saw
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: yesterday tickets went on sale yesterday for our live in
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: person show of twenty twenty five at Hamilton Pool Vineyard
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: and Farms May third.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: So it's so uph.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: May the Force be with you weekend, I mean, and
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: it's the weekend before Cinco de Mayo. There is like
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: so much that we could do.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: There's so much to drink for I mean, do a
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: live stream about.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: I'm sure we'll have to pop in and do some
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: little fun things while you're at my house. And you're
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: going to be staying at my house for the weekend.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: Yes, Yes, it's going to be a whirlwind tour. In fact,
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: anytime that we go somewhere to do a show, it's
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: going to be a whirlwind tour. It's gonna be crazy,
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: but worth it, worth it.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: Everything you're gonna get to be with Jasper.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: Oh, you get just super jealous. I just everybody just
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: got super jealous. I'm jealous of myself, my future self.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: Hmm, you're gonna get some Jasper love.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: So I get to cuddle with Jasper.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: Right, you get to cuddle with Jasper. I'm so excited.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: Your kids are gonna hate you. The boys are gonna
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: be so bad. Maybe you could take you can take
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: from some goat poop. I can put in little baggies
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: for you.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: There you go, there you go. So yeah, so yeah,
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: So we got that first this one coming up. Our
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: goal Our goal was like four, right.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: Well we still got we've got another one coming up
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: in July. Correct, and then we've got four others that
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: were negotiating. I'm only telling we will tell when tickets
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: go on sell because that means the contracts finalized, everything's done.
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: So but we are working on potentially five this year,
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: which awesome is exciting. And then the other great exciting
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: news is on February twentieth, while you're on a boat somewhere,
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: I am going to have Brian Joseph, the author of
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: Vegas Concierge on guys. This book. I have it right
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: here on my desk. I have read it twice because
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: I keep forgetting to write down the questions I want
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: to ask him because I keep getting drawn into the book.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: So it's about sex trafficking, hip hop and corruption in America,
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: and he talks to real life victims of sex trafficking
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: and they share their stories. I thought I was somewhat
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: educated about what sex trafficking was and how it got started.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: I learned I didn't know two percent. Didn't know two percent.
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: So he is going to be amazing to have on
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: the show while you're floating on the boat.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: Thanks Lady and Grave for posting that that would be
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: the website to his book. Yes, yeah, so a lot
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: of cool stuff I cannot say because I don't know
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: what the internet situation is. I don't think I'm gonna
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: have a good enough signal to stream, so but I
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: will try.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: I will tell you they do have internet service and
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: it's good, but it's pricey. I mean, I haven't been
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: on a boat now in ten years, so maybe it's
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: gotten better. But I had to do some work. I
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: want to say, I paid like one hundred dollars for
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: like twenty minutes or something. It was outrageous.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: Oh no, it's different now. Yeah, But so we like
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: have a package for it because well we got to
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: stay in contact with the kids and everybody. But we
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: lead it like one device.
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: The kids aren't going.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: No, are they coming.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: To my house?
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: Nope? Well my mother is coming down to watch them. Yes, yes,
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: this is this is a ten year anniversary cruise.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: I know it is.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: But our tenure was January fifteenth, January tenth, January tenth,
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: January tenth and twenty fifteen JT. Don't confuse the day it's.
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: But and just to remind you, it's also around Valentine's Day.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: So no pressure, no pressure.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: What else are we going to do? Do?
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: Don't even go there. Also, I want to tell people
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: if you know of any wineries or even places that
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: are like pubs that sell wine and do things, and
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: they do these kind of shows. Please send the information
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: to Tara at tcwtmedia dot com. We will add them
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: to our list to reach out to cause I mean
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: if we get all these booked and it goes well,
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: I mean we will keep looking to do things. And
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: what we're doing is we let the venue pick the
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: case if they want to, and then if they don't
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: want to, We're gonna pick cases that are local cases.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: And for those of you that are Channel members and
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: you paid us our extra content, we are working on
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: a way that you will be able to see it
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: live via a stream. So we haven't forgotten you guys,
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: So we are working on that. So what we talked
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: about drinking tonight, Yes, we both our brains both went
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: to the next thing, which was great.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: So tonight we are talking about what happened to James Bulger.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: If you do not know this case strap in. In
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: terms of drinking. My wine choice tonight has been is
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: called Angels Inc. It's a pino. It's from the Central Coast.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: I love the the label. I won't show all labels,
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: but this is a really pretty label's pretty label. Yeah,
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: And so it's like it's from the central coast of California.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: It's fruit forward, but it does have a very oaky presence.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: So what it says here, and I'm not great at
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: describing alcoholic drinks, however, what it says is the wine
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: delights the palette with a crush of berry and a
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: vanilla back to juiciness. What I like to say is
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: it tastes like wine.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: I was like vanilla backed juicy this. I mean, the
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: first thing that just popped in my head was baby
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: Got Back? Song? Is what is singing in my head?
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: What is wrong with me?
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: Well, listen, we got to get the laughs in where
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: we can, because I will say this, as a father
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: of two, cannot imagine having something like this case that
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: we're discussing tonight happened. The guilt that I would feel
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: the knowledge of that last time with my kid's hands
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: slipping away from me, I would just be wondering what
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: I was doing, what was I saying? Was I happy
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: with them? Were they doing something to frustrate? Did it
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: even matter at that point? I don't know. But James Bulger,
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: who I can only describe as just this cher abic
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: two year old, he became a symbol of innocence undone.
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: And it's not simply a tragedy. It's a reminder that
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: the thread between childhood and adulthood, life and death, it's
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: incredibly fragile and thin. We're so used to having such
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: evil being perpetrated by adults, and to a degree, I
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: think we can make sense out of it because of
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: the time on earth they have had, in the amount
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: of life they've gone through. But the two boys that
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: caused this issue, this problem that James went with or
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: they took, they were ten years old and they were
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: barely old enough to comprehend the weight of their own shadows,
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: let alone their actions. And these boys were the architects
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: of a nightmare. This is darkness that has taken root
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: very very quickly, and it was something that changed policies
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: and laws. But despite all that changed, a crime like
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: this really makes me wonder, and I think others wonder
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: did we do enough? And so I'm i'm I'm I'm
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: dreading slash, I'm excited about getting into it. What about you?
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: What about your wine choice? And Lady and Gray, thank you,
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: thank you, Lady and Gray.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: So first of all, I'm drinking out of my cute
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: one glass that I happen to find a dollar tree. Guys,
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: so it's about a dollar twenty five. It says be
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: wine or be mine. They marked out mine and it
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: says wine. So that's just me because I love Valentine's Day.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: But I am drinking in Vivo Marlborough seven Young Blanc.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: It's a New Zealand seven Young Blanc that was made
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: and especially blended by the One and Only s JP
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: also known as Sarah Jessica Park Girl.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: Yes, I think human embodied the wine.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: It's a tropical style. But guys, and this sounds so
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: naughty when I say it, but this is from them.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: It says it is smooth with a long finish.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, you don't want it to end too soon.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: I do, But it's got It's got a very vibrant
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: aroma of lime and rock melon. I mean it smells pretty.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: The only challenge with this wine it's too easy drinking.
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: It's too easy drinking. You have to be careful. You'll
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: drink the whole wine, the whole bottle. But this case,
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: I'm excited, but I'm also I have so many feels.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna just warn people. I got lots of tangents,
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: lots of things to say, and I'm gonna apologize that,
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: but I got them to say because this case hits
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: so close to home. I mean, I'm a boy mom,
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: I have, you know, two boys, and this caused me
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: anxiety because the thought of two ten year olds committing
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: a brutal murder likes this makes me just say, what
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: in the hell was going through their minds? What was
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: happening in their lives to take two innocent creatures to
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: that point that they comprehend do this. I mean, as
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: a person who loves the true crime world and has forever,
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: I can't say that I ever have thought of brutally
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: murdering someone except for in revenge. But and when I
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: was ten years old, all I cared about was Barbie
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: and Shawn Cassidy. I mean, I didn't comprehend, you know that,
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: and I can't help. But also one was there signs
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: that people missed of these kids because it is a
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: tragedy and horrific what they did to James horrific. But
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: I also, you know, I try to be kind and
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: try to have empathy, but I can't help but imagine
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: the pain that his family has suffered and they continue
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: to suffer. But also for those two boys that were
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: ten years old. You know, I don't know how to
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: do that because as a parent, you don't just stop
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: loving your kids, you know. And oh, hold on, cappin
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: oh Angie and I are going to fight Shaun Cassidy's mine.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: I have touched him. He has touched my hand, and
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: his face used to be on my own. There was consent.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: I was a child and it was at the Astronome and.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: You're not hoping yourself.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: He drove around in the car after the performance and
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: you stick your hand out and he touched my hand, Okay,
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, and then I rubbed it all over my
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: face and I had on my underwear with his little
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: face on him. Set. You mentioned that this case made
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: a lot of laws change, and it did. But I
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: am still going to say, after diving into this case,
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: we do not have the answer. Still, we do not
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: have the answers of how you handle this, how you
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: approach it, And I think someone needs to spend some
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: enormous amount of time researching these things. So, like you said,
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: buckle up, I'm going to just say, try not to
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: drink too much too fast, because it's in my opinion,
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: it's the most horrific case we've ever done.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely so, So listen, you know, kind of
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: bouncing off of that. At True Crime and Wine Time,
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: here we discuss real life crimes, many of which include
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: disturbing details that may not be suitable for all listeners.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: Topics could include violence, abuse, murder, sexual assault, and other
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: sensitive content, and we approach each case with respect for
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: the victims while also engaging in candid discussions. We do
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: encourage listener discretion, so if any topic becomes too overwhelming,
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: please prioritize your well being. You can always pause, step away,
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: skip ahead. If if you are someone you know is struggling,
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: please seek help. We will include relevant resources in our
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: episode description when applicable. So let's get ready.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you, guys, for a glass or
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: a couple of glasses, grab a bottle. I'm not encouraging
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: 'maholism here, I'm just saying prepare yourself. Let's dive into
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: the dark side of true crime together. Because here on
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: True Crime and Wine Time, we do tackle the hard stuff,
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: and this one's hard.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: So let's go, all right. So, James Patrick Bulger was
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: born on March sixteenth, nineteen ninety to parents Denise and
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: Ralph Boulger and a working class family. And I think
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: a producer. Ah, oh, what.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: A cutie pie. Look at those cheeks, guys. I when
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: reading hearing people say that they described him as cheeky
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: because you know it's British. I mean, look at that
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: middle picture. That is cheeky. He's just adorable.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: It's just adors I love those cheeks. I'm always sad
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: when they go away. So they lived in Kirkby, Merseyside, England.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: James was their miracle child. He was their second. The
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: couple had a stillborn daughter and a year later James
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: was born. Now because of the loss just before James,
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: they were extremely doting as parents and they were very
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: protective of him. So you can only imagine the intensity
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: of this loss having just lost a daughter three to
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: four years before now. James was known as cheerful and curious.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: He was always eager to explore the world. His family, friends,
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: and neighbors described him as lively and affectionate, with an
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: infectious smile that brightened any room he entered. Denise ensured
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: that James was happy and secure, was a hard working dad,
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: and he shared a close bond with James, which I
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: find amazing, and they often spent quality time together during
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: the weekends. So this is a family that is very
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: close and James was very well loved.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, just look at those photos. Just look at
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: those photos, and I'm going to just say that mustache
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: on Dad, I like it. Okay, So we're gonna move on. Okay,
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: So I like it, fight me. I like it. So
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: now we're going to talk about the other two kids
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: for a second. So Robert Thompson and John Vinables, for
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: whatever reason, they woke up on February twelfth, nineteen eighty
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: three and decided to skip school. Now, let me tell you,
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: neither one of these kids liked school. They each had
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: their own challenges, whether it was being picked on by
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: other you know, having learning difficulties ADHD, can't sit still
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: in their seat, that kind of stuff. And both of
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: these kids were held back and were in a grade
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: below where they should have been. So you know, they
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: were picked on for that. And it is said that
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: when they met, they became friends. It was almost like magnets, right.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: It's it's really interesting to me that when any age
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: person right is having a hard time at home, they
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: seek another refuge. Now why they hated school. They found
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: someone else who was in the same boat, or really
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: kind of the same cannon on the same boat, and
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: that comfort allowed them to become friends that share it's
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: almost a shared misery, right between their dislike of school
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: and all the other things that were going on in
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: their life. So it's so interesting.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: Well, and you gravitate naturally towards people like you. They
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: both were going to find out had some rough homes
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: home life, so it makes sense, you know. So, like
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: I said, they woke up to skip school. They both,
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: since becoming friends, had become truant kids. They skipped school often.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: Now I read one of the moms that she got
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: in trouble, you know, the school said you've got to
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: make him go to school. She took his they call
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: him runners, but took his tiny shoes and hid them
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: because she thought if he couldn't find his shoes until
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: it was time to go to school and she took
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: him to school, he couldn't run off, right. Yeah, No,
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: he left before time to get up to go to
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: school and still skip school, and he just went without shoes.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: So lady and Grage just ask how old were they? Again?
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: They were ten years old, so Robert and John or
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: ten now? And I don't know why. And I have
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: spent so many hours trying to think about this that
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: it's caused me a little bit of anxiety. But these boys,
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: for some ungodly reason, thought it would be fun to
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: abduct a kid and kill them. And guys, all I
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: hear in my head even saying that out loud is
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: what in the actual hell. How in the hell does
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: a ten year old, much less two ten year old
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: wake up and say, hey, let's give school and go
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: kill someone today. I mean, my mind literally cannot understand
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: this shit. I can't and I've hurt myself trying.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: That's probably for the best.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and we're going to find out. James was their
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: second attempt of the day. So when I say they
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: woke up and had this plan in mine, they knew
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: they wanted to abduct a kid and kill them. So
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: the boys they decided, you know, not to go to school,
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: and they head to the Strand, which is a shopping center,
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: and they decide to steal from several different stores and
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: get into mischief basically. And the interesting thing about that
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: they would steal stuff and then throw it away. It
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: was the thrill of stealing and hoping they would get caught.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: They didn't actually steal anything they wanted, so they didn't
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: go like steal a Pokemon card or a troll because
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: one of them was in patrol dolls. They stole like
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: a pen. They stole these random things and they would
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: just throw it away. So that's why I want to say.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: They wanted to get into mischief, you know. And they
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: talked to these other two kids and they tried to
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: get them to go with them. Luckily, those kids' moms
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: said hey, you two get over here, you know, and
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: they came back. Unfortunately, Denise James's mom, so where the
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: family lived. The family, all of the family, Denise, his
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: mom is one of thirteen kids. All of the kids
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: lived within a couple of miles of the mom and
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: dad's house. So woke up, Denise took James over there.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: Her sister in law was there and her niece, and
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: she took her niece and James to go out shopping
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: to the mall, okay, and she kept her eye on him.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: Now she decided not to take him in his pram.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: A pram is a stroller, guys. But I like the
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: word pram. It makes me feel fancy. Plus prams like
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: infant prams are bougie and I want to sleep in one.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: But that's for another day. But she decided she was
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: going to let him walk and she would just hold
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: onto his hand and keep track of him. Guys, she
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: was paying for her purchase at the butcher shop. She
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: let go of James's hand, and I want you to
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: think about this. Let go of his hand, grabbed her wallet,
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: handed the money, put the change, put it back, went
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: to grab his hand, and James was gone that fast, okay,
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: And she I mean, if you think about it. And
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: the media was awful in the beginning. Some people got better,
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: but they wanted to give the mom some shade for
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: not taking care of her kid. But I want to
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: say to anyone who wants to throw that shade on
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: that mother, I'm going to say, shut the f up,
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: because as a mom and a grandmother, I can tell
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: you you have to let go of the child's hand
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: for a minute to pay for things, open a door.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: You cannot unless you put a leash on them. Control
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: the all of that. Now. She panicked, immediately ran out
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: to look for James, looked around the butcher area, and
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: she didn't see him. So she went to security, okay,
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: and she told them, you know, I can't find my child.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: But they did see James on the store's video walking
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: away from his mother as she paid and going out
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: the door of the butcher shop. It was less go ahead.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: And now I was saying, I can't imagine like having
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: to watch that footage over and over and over again,
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: because you know, it wasn't just in you know, in
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: that that that that's probably small office or in the court.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: It was like all over the television. And it's just
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: like a constant reminder of that one moment that you
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: just your hand, constantly making you question everything over again.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean, and what I found interesting when
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: she let go of his hand, she looked around the
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: butcher shop first before she went out the door. Three
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: minutes from the time James went out the door, his
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: mom went out the door looking for him. That's after
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: she spent two and a half minutes looking around the
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: butcher shop. It happened that fast. I mean, now we
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: will find out. James was seen on another camera three
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: minutes later after that, walking with two other boys while
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: holding one of the boy's hands. Okay, Now, something that's
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: interesting about that is we will find out later when
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: you tell us about everything that happened that day. But
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: I have to say I wouldn't think it's suspicious to
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: see two ten year old walking with a two year old.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: I would think they were brothers or friends.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, especially at that time.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So, now, the three walked roughly, it was like
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: two and a half miles, three miles through Liverpool, and James,
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: who you'll remember was just two years old at times,
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: was crying for his mom and you know they said
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: on the video sometimes he was seen laughing and then
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: witnesses saw him and stuff. But the thing I stop
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: and think about a two year old walking that many miles.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: Those are little bitty legs. Those are we we legs?
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: Those are we little legs A blot. Now, the three
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: were seen by others after James was abducted, and this
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: is the part that starts making me on a tangent.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: The older boys were even seen kicking and hitting James.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: Yet none of the people who saw them stepped in
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: and did anything, which pisses me off because maybe I'm
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: a meddling person. Maybe I'm Karen, but if I saw
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: two boys picking on a toddler, I wouldn't care if
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: they were brothers or what. I would have stepped in
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: and called the cops. I don't know what that says
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: about me, but I would have done something. I know
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: that for a fact, because seriously, ten and two and
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: the ten year old should have been in school. And
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: my other thought is, why wasn't that a clue that
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: you saw two ten year olds that weren't in freaking school,
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: and then you see them beating a two year old,
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: which there is no reason for that ever to be okay,
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: So it's always wrong, and I will tell you guys,
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: it will always put me in mama bear mode and
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: make me step in and get involved in shit.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like it's bad enough when I walk into
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: the daycare and see two boys kind of facing another.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: One just happened the other day, a big, big, little
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: Bruce crime. I've seen him step up to kind of
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: protect his brother more than once, which is heartfelt and
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: it warms the cockles of my heart. Shouldn't have to happen.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: But I get that dad's stance, and I just I
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: go and I just stare right through the kid, causing problems.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: I never thought i'd have one of those stairs, but boy,
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: oh boy, I will stare knives through in order to
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: get them to And they look and they know exactly
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: what they know what they're doing. They know they shouldn't
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: be doing it. It's simple, but yeah, it's I can't
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: say that I wouldn't be subject to the bystander effect,
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: which we don't go into too much here, maybe in
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: another episode, but I would like to think that I
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: would step.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: In because it's a two year old. I would step in.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, I saw two ten year old hit in
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: each other, I might just stand there and watch, but
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: a two year old two ten year olds kicking and
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: beating a two year old, Because then I'm going to
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: be looking around going where in the hell are the
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: mothers and the fathers and where are the parents. So now,
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: after they took James and did their stuff, I'm not
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: going to get in to all of that because you're
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: gonna go with this down that path. But I want
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: to tell you, guys, after they did this, those two
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: boys head to a local video store, where they go
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: often when they're skipping school. Another red flag because they
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: know the owner of this video store, and they run
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: errands for her. Often, why are you not calling the
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: parents or somebody to tell them they should be in school?
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: I mean why? But so that night they also run
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: an erin. And what's interesting, John's mother had been out
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: looking for him because she had heard at ZIP school.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: She finds him at the video store. But what is
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: real interesting is that she instantly goes into like mama
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: punishing mode and she starts waylaying into John and into Robert.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: I mean she literally starts laying into someone else's child.
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: And I don't know about you. Would you lay into
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: someone else's child physically?
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: Oh no, oh no, no, no no, ma'am.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: Sorry, guys, I am more kicked out for some reason.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: You got kicked out of where.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: The Google drive? I'm back.
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: Oh interesting, I.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: Don't know what happened. It's okay, it happens, but so
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: I just a lot of that just makes me crazy
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: and all of that. But neither one of the boys
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: let on that they knew anything. Now, the interesting thing
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: about the investigation. After Denise went to the security office
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: security at the shopping center, they looked for you know, James,
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: because I mean, I have to admit I've lost my
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: kid while out shopping. Now, granted, my kid ran off
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: and was hiding in the clothes rack because he thought
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: it would be funny. And then when I went off looking,
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: he told somebody my mom is lost, not that he
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: was lost, but that his mom was lost.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: That checks out, And the looks.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: I got from the security person, I was like, I
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: was there, disappeared. I didn't know. He just went in.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: I didn't know you could go in the middle of
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: a closed rack. So basically security looked. They decided to
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: call the police. So the police were called within thirty minutes.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: Now a lot of people in the media were bashing
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: the police and bashing the security officer and the mom
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: for not calling them for thirty minutes. Who would think
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: that a two year old would disappear from a shopping
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: center that fast. You look around the shopping center first,
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: because if we call the cops every time a kid
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: hides in the clothing rack at a store, the police
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: would never get anything done.
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: So correct, correct, You know, my brain would be all
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: over the place anyways, and so just logically that wouldn't
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: cross my mind to just straight up call the police
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: right away. Somebody would have to either make the call
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: for me or suggest it to me, because I can
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: tell you my brain is not thinking that. My brain
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: is find the child as fast as possible. Yeah.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: Now, this kind of almost made me go down another
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: rabbit hole. That it turned out well because while the
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: police were searching for James around the shopping center, another
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: four year old went missing from the same shopping center
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: while James was missing. Now, the good news is the
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: four year old was found, but he told police a
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: man in a white coat had tried to talk him
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: into his car, so he was outside of the shopping center.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: But that is two kids and a short amount of time. Yeah,
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: plus the kids that we know John and Robert tried
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: to abduct before James. So that's like three children's abductions
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: in a matter of hours and one location. That is
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: beyond comprehension for me, because guys, this is back when
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: we would leave our house in the morning and go
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: play until sunset. We knew not to come home until then. Now,
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: the police did something that I thought was amazing. They
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: immediately alerted the media, all taxi companies, and the bus
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: lines that a two year old is missing. I never
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: thought about alerting taxi companies.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: Had you.
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: I mean, I idea I host Midday Missing and I
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: tell families what they should do. I need to go
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: add to it, and Amy, if you're on, I think
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: I saw you on. We need to add that to
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: a list of things to do if your kids go
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: missing or if somebody goes missing. Alert Uber Lift taxi companies.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: I never thought of it. So even this old dog
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: can learn new tricks. Okay, that's all I'm saying. But thankfully,
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: I think because he was a two year old, police
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: began searching immediately on foot and by car in the
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: area immediately surrounding the center because there is a canal there.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: You know, there is water. And the thing that I
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: found so interesting about that is they didn't just call
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: one or two police officers to come in. They called
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: in the cavalry. Oh, captain just put up a thing.
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: I did call Uber when I had a missing family member.
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: That gave me a link to give the cops to
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: track their ride. That is great information. I definitely am
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: going to be adding that on Midday Missing, because that
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: that's good info. Now, the police were also looking for
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: the man and the coat that the other four you know,
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: the four year old said talked about. But they were
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: also looking for a man that was said to be
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: seen at the center who had a ponytail. But he
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: appeared strange. Okay, guys, exactly. I mean, let's just stop
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: and think about that. There's people that just look strange.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: They didn't nowhere can I find Oh, he was taking
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: pictures of kids, he was staring at kids, he was
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: talking to kids. No, he just looked weird. Had a ponytail.
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: So that's okay. So that gave the police two suspects,
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: the man in the white car and the guy with
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: the ponytail. Now they started looking around. They went and
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: talked to all the shops. Hey have you seen YadA, YadA, YadA.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: The man with the ponytail went to the police station,
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: walked in and says, I hear you're looking for me.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: I'm the strange dude with the ponytail.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: He was cleared, like they said in Wicked Hits me h.
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: So really, the moral of the story is, if you're
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: suspected for something, just turn yourself in and you'll be cleared.
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: And that'll be the result most.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: Times, Mike, most of the times. Yes, Now in that picture,
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: we saw that there was a canal. The police asked
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: for an underwater search, and that underwater search team searched
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: the canal the very next morning after James went missing.
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, guys, they jumped into action. Okay, Now, around
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: midnight on the day that James went missing, police knew
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: they can't do much searching at night. Captain says, if
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: you're suspected, don't have a body.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: Down, simple facts.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to just say here in Austin, Texas,
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of men a ponytail and there's a
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: lot of man buns.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: I'm just gonna go ahead and get rid of it now.
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: I guess I like it.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: So that they knew they couldn't do a lot at night,
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: so they decided to go get the video securities from
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: sixteen different cameras around the shopping center, and they decided
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: to sit back with their donuts and coffee and start
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: watching all of them.
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: It was scones and tea, scones and tea.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: I'm my world, it's coffee and donuts, but it's probably
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: was the spot of tea and the scone. You're correct.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna log that in my memory bank for the
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: rest of my life. You're doing that one. Yeah, loved it.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: Now this is where and I mentioned at early that
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: they find out that James is with two boys. So
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: the video shocked the police. And I have to tell you, guys,
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: this would have shocked the crap out of me too,
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: that James hadn't wandered off, but had walked off with
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: what they thought was two teenage boys and that was
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: concerning to them. Yeah, and they released this grainy video
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: footage to the public, hoping someone would recognize these boys.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I think we have a quick, yeah, little
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: picture of it there, But I mean I can't see
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: a whole lot, guys. That is some grainy footage. But
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: I also want to say, in twenty twenty five, I've
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: still seen some grainy shit, okay, which I'll try not
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: to spare tu or waste too much time, But can
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: we just get better security cameras please? I want to
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: be able to look at video footage and say, hey
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: that's JT or hey that's Terry. I don't want to say, oh,
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: that could be one of five people.
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: If my ring camera has a better view or a
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: better camera quality than the quality of a security camera
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: in like a bank. We've got problems right here in
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: River City.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: So now police brought in a man. He worked at
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: one of the shops there and he said he saw
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: two teenage looking boys and a toddler and guys. He
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: worked at one of the places. The cops called him
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: at two a m. He got up out of bed
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: and went down to the police station. Look at those videos.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, I just want to tell this guy amazing
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: and I will buy you a spot of tea and
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: a skull. Okay. But he couldn't identify the boys, but
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: he was able to say that is the boys I saw.
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: And the police continue investigating.
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I have the horrible job of talking about
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: the crime scene and the autopsy. So Valentine's Day of
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: ninety three, I mean, it wasn't a day of love
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: for everyone in Liverpool. It was the day James Balder,
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: age two, was found to cease near a railway in Walton, Liverpool.
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: To make this discovering even more awful, James's badly beaten
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: body was discovered by kids, children who were playing. They
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: were playing and they found the deceased body of a
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: two year old. I I can't.
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna just tell you the amount of trauma this
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: would give me as an adult, I mean if I
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: saw that as an adult. But could you imagine being
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: a child and finding the body of a toddler?
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: I can't and they couldn't. And just as a quick aside,
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: the kids' names, the kids who found them were James
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: and Terrence Riley and they were fourteen and thirteen when
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: they found James Bulger and the two shocked, totally shaken,
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: badly shaken, which I mean, I think as anybody would be,
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: and they let their parents know about their discovery now
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: now sadly and whether it was caused by this or
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: there were other things that happened, but both ended up
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: being becoming addicts, with one later dying in later dying
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: in life and so like. For instance, James Riley had
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: been convicted more than forty times for a range of
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: offenses and he'd been known as a drug addict and
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: something his family said was a result of him discovering
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: James's body, and Terrence used the excuse of finding James
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: when he appeared at the Liverpool Crown Court after he
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: crashed into a car while leading police on a chase
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: after taking drugs. And in two thousand and nine, he
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: was jailed for twelve years for smuggling drugs from South
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: America via Amsterdam, and during that time, Judge Murray accepted
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: that Riley had suffered post traumatic stress after finding the body,
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: but jailed him for twelve months for his drive record. Anyways,
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: and this whole time, right this whole time, James's mom,
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: Denise said, quote, I was sickened to learn that this
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: man is dragging James's name as an excuse for his
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: own crimes. I can see why it would be kind
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: of like that lynchpin, you know, for for things to
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: go south. But yeah, I mean, it's all on how
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: you do it, I think.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, I agree, it's not an excuse, it's not.
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: But I can't help but ask and wonder did those
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: boys get any therapy to deal with what they saw?
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: Because if they didn't and no one gave them those services,
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: then as a society, how in the hell could we
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: have expected them to grow up normal with no issues
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: because finding a dead child.
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: That was I don't see it happened in ninety I'll let.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: You get into the crime scene, but it was a
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: gruesome scene. I if they didn't get help, they didn't
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: have a chance.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're right. The location was really unremarkable at
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: first glance. It kind of looked like a scene out
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: of the movie stand By Me with the train tracks. Again.
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: It was along the railway tracks near Walton, Liverpool and
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: was an isolated stretch of industrial infrastructure, overshadowed by grace skies.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: Just this air of neglect. There were jagged steel tracks
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: that cut through the landscape. They were flanked by overgrown
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: grass and weeds. It was like an awkward, unkempt limbo
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: and when police arrived. And remember as police arrived, this
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: was also how the two kids found James. But James's
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: body had been laid across the tracks and had unfortunately
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: been run over by train. The police felt as if
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: James was laid across by the two ten year old
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: boys in the hopes that they would make James's death
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: look like an accident. And this is I mean, it's chilling,
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: and it shows that they they knew what was done
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: and they knew that it was absolutely wrong. They also
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: found at the scene a bunch of evidence, including twenty
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: seven bricks, stones, and a twenty two pound iron rod
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: that was used. They were all used as weapons blue
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: paint was found on james clothes, which would later be
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: tied to the ten year olds, and small footprints were
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: found at the scene and later were matched to the
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: shoes belonging to the two ten year old killers. In addition,
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: it's important to know that trains immediately were halted without
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: delay because there was now more than just one crime scene.
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: Bricks appeared to have been placed on James's head and
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: through the force, and then the force of the train
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: scattered those. The bricks and stones were stained with blood,
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: and they also found a set of three double A
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: batteries near the scene. We'll talk about this in a
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: little bit. This evidence in James's body told the detectives
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: that this had been an absolutely brutal, brutal murder, and
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: it heightened their desire to find the killers, which at
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: that point not sure. Now, if you weren't triggered already,
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: here's a solid trigger warning. I'm not going to get
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: graphic by any stretch, but i am going to explain
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: what the injuries were to a child. And if that's
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: not for you, totally cool. I get it. It wasn't
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: for me either. Just give me like five minutes and
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: then come back and we'll be done with it. The
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: autopsy of James Balger was conducted by Home Office pathologist
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: doctor Allan Williams, and it revealed the extent of the
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: brutal assault he endured before his death on February twelfth.
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: Here are a few of the key findings. James sustained
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: forty two injuries in total, with twenty two bruises, splits
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: and grazers on his face and head and twenty wounds
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: on his body. There were multiple fractures to James's skull,
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: with the right side shattered. The extensive damage suggested that
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: James had been struck by at least thirty blows. There
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: was significant brain damage, as you can probably imagine, which
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: included a hemorrhage at the center of the brain doctor
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: doctor Williams. As if it wasn't bad enough, doctor Williams
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: noticed that James endured a short period of survival after
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: the attack, possibly only minutes before succumbing to his injuries.
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: He was also able to confirm that James was deceased
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: before the train impact. Overall autopsy and its findings those
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: were crucial during the trial.
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: Just every one of those facts is horrific, but I
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: have to be honest, we're talking about a two year old,
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: just one, just one of those had traumas is triggering
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: to me. But to hear that this was all done
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: to a two year old, it fills me with and yeah,
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: then to think that ten year olds did that.
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, each each fact is really hard, and obviously getting
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: through it's very hard. However, I think I think the
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: hardest part about everything is that he lived through that
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: whole thing, according to autopsy and findings, and you almost
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: you almost wish for him not to be cognizant of
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: what's happening.
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: I just right to get me through it. I told
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: myself that he was passed out. He was still alive,
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: but he wasn't conscious. That's the only way I can
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: I'm hoped. Yeah, I'm going to just live with that
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: story that I'm telling myself.
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: Honest, after you know, you consider a twenty two pound
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: iron bar, Yeah, I think you're probably right. I mean so,
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: leading up to the arrest, Robert Thompson visited the crime scene.
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: Believe it or not, Robert Thompson visited the crime scene.
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: He placed a solitary rose near the railway tracks, alongside
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: other things that have been laid out in a makeshift memorial.
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: While Robert visited the site, John was captivated by the
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: unfolding story of James's disappearance, which apparently is ageless thing
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: because that's exactly what happens with older criminals and murderers, right,
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: They're interested in what unfolds. John asked his mom if
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: the culprits have been caught, adding quote if I seen them, lads,
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: I kicked them heads in. I kick their heads in,
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: to which I say, sure, hope you're pretty flexible, John,
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: because obviously you're talking about yourself. Good luck. His mother
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: told James that his mother told him that James had
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: been found dead by the railway, and John expressed concern
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: at that point for quote his poor mom, it's a
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: ten year old. How this is like, it's brutal.
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: When I was doing my research and I read about
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: Robert and John and how they were acting in the
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: day after, I had to take deep breasts because I
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: was about ready to throw my laptop out the window
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: because they are kids, and I try really hard to
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: be that person that's kind and have empathy, but I
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: personally believe that by them acting concerned and the comments
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: that they made. They knew beyond any doubt what they
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: did was wrong, and they are evil. They were pure evil.
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and the hunt for James Killer spiraled. In
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: the hysteria, accusations flew wildly. Even parents were called into
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: to nay. Parents called in to name their own children
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: as suspects, and in one case, police arrested a twelve
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: year old boy, leading to a mom storming his family's home,
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: and the boy was later cleared, but not before his
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: family had to be relocated for their safety. There were
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: over two hundred potential leads that came into police after
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: the video was released. Now a woman called the police.
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: They reported that Susan Venable's son John, had skipped school
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: that Friday and matched to the boy in the CCTV footage.
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: She also mentioned that Robert Thompson was John's companion that day. Well,
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: that was just too perfect of a coincidence to be
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: a coincidence, so they went ahead and pursued it, and
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: on February eighteenth, police arrived at Anne Thompson's door with
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: a warrant. Robert cried as he realized he was a suspect.
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: Oh God. A pair of bloodstained shoes were seized as evidence.
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: I can't I can't look at those photos. They are
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: so young. Honestly, it doesn't hit me until I see
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: those photos and then I see him, and then my
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: brain just implodes. At the Venables home, Susan greeted officers
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: with a cutting remark quote, I knew you'd be here.
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: I told them. I told him you'd want to see
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: him for sagging school on Friday, and John held on
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: to his mother, crying, saying, I don't want to go
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: to prison, Mom, I don't. I didn't kill the baby.
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: It's that Robert Thompson. He always gets me into trouble. Now,
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: John and Robert smart move on the police's part, but
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: John and Robert were taken to separate police stations. The boys,
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: seemingly innocent, were treated as witnesses. At first, it was
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: just hard to believe that their participation in this was
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: even remotely thinkable. During fingerprinting, John asked, fascinated, quote, do
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: you leave these on whatever you touch? If you drag someone,
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: do you leave your nails in his skin? It's mind
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: blowing that these are the comments that are being made.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: These are the comments that adults would make, and police
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: would be like you know what I mean. So I
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: think we actually have a sample of Robert and John's
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: police interview up next. No, you're not.
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: Then it was appetizing to kill. We went out to
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: came out.
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: We should let her thrown in the water.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: Turns of space.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: So you weren't in boot It was you in bootle
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: Strands got a kid. I must ask you sure a
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: while ago, as is detailed and your custody echo out there,
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: you had a conversation with your mom. Is that right?
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: What was it?
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: He told us.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: A really in full transparency should have listened to that
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: ahead of time. So in his interrogation, Robert danced around
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: the tree, and he did so, dang well. At first
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: he denied involvement. He claimed he and John had gone
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: to the library after the Strand visit. Robert was further
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: pressured because well, it's an interrogation of a ten year
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: old and they pulled bloody shoes from his house, and
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: so under pressure, he suggested that John might have done
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: something bad. Ultimately, hours into questioning, Robert wept as he conceded.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: As you heard that John had led James by the hand.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: Robert said, quote, why do I have to stay here?
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: John's the one that took the baby.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: I listened to that and to some of the other
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: ones because I'm glutton for punishment. And at first I
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: was very floored by their ability to blame each other
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: because they're ten years old, right, But then I started
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: thinking of a typical elementary school kid and how many
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: teachers have to deal with students blaming each other. Right.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: I didn't take this, somebody else did. And I thought
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: of the Barney song who took the cookie from the
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: cookie jar? I mean, kids blame each other. But I
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: also was a horrified that Robert called James a baby,
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: and he kept a straight face when he said it.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: He cried another part, but there was no tears when
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: he said James. You know when he said that John
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: took the baby, not James, that John took the baby.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: They knew what they were doing.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, for sure, and and and and John was
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: hysterical from the outset. He broke down. His parents reassured
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: him that they would love him no matter what. With that,
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: he admitted, I did kill him. What about his mom?
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: Will you tell him to tell her that I'm sorry?
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: Those were their school clothes that they put on.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean as a mom just broke my heart
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: and trying not to cry. I can't imagine the pain
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: as a mom sitting there and your son telling you, Mom,
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: I killed him. You know, because I can say I
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: will always love my boys. I may not like what
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: they do, but I will always love them. So I
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: don't know how is a mom how you ever lived
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: with the fact that your child, your ten year old,
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: did this to a two year old, Because I don't know.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: If I could, I would be asking myself, what in
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: the hell did I do wrong?
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And he admitted throwing bricks at James, and then
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: described Robert's escalating violence. He claimed to have asked Robert,
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: don't you think we've done enough for not, which is
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: interesting rhetorically because he kind of gave Robert permission to
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: continue on, which continues to confuddle me in terms of
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: like who was the head and tail of the pair.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: John grew agitated when he was talking about James's murder.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: He clenched his fists as he told of pulling off
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: James's shoes, and, in an interesting observation, both boys in
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: different police departments being interrogated separately, they both became visibly
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: distressed when they were questioned about the batteries found at
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: the scene. John in particular, stopped and struck his father
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: when asked if anything had been done to James's genitals.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: I don't know. By Saturday evening, both boys were charged
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: with the murder of James Balder as well as his abduction,
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: as well as the abduction of another child that they
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: attempted before James. Huh.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: Now, like I said, I glutton for punishment. I listened
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: to another podcast, a Britain British podcast that it was
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: a very factual and they gave every great detail. It
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: will come up later and I will talk about it
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: more and later. The police should have pushed those kids
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: about the batteries. They should have and we'll get into that.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: But first I'm going to tell you a little bit
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: about Robert Thompson's background. Like I said, I'm not excusing
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: what these kids did or making excuses. But Robert was
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: born on August twenty third, nineteen ninety two, to his
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: mother Ann and his father, Bobby SR. Robert's parents had
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: gotten married at the age of eighteen. Both came from
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: abusive families, okay, and Robert's family was described as terribly dysfunctional.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: And I'm gonna just go out on a limb here
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: and say this was no Cleaver family at all.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, unless we're talking about Beaver getting locked in
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: the basement while while Warren and June set the living
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: room on fire over Monopoly game. Correct.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: Not. But Robert was child number five of seven children.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: Robert's dad often beat his mom and once pushed her
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: down the stairs while she was pregnant and caused her
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: to lose the child. So when I say it was dysfunctional,
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: I mean it was an abusive home. Robert was described
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: as a quiet boy, but who was troubled. He was
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: described as calculating and always quick to shift blame and
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: was a cunning liar. That was said before the murder
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: that description of him in school files, which once again,
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: why didn't somebody get the kids some help and find
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: out what was going home on? At home, Robert was
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: of average intelligence, but did not do well in school.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: Robert's dad walked out on the family when Robert was six,
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: and he didn't have anything to do with the kids again,
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: and then shortly after the family's home burned down and
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: they lost everything. He was six years old. Dad walks
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: out and then the entire house burns down. That right,
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: there is trauma. People. You may not want to say
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: that's trauma, but that's trauma, you know. But the other thing,
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: Robert was bullied by his older siblings and in turn
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: began bullying his younger brother Ryan. It was kind of
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: you know how normally brothers take up for each other
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: and you fight and you do things. No, they literally
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: bullied and beat the younger siblings. It was a it
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: was a brotherly thing to do in that household. But
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: interesting enough, Robert would bully his younger brother Ryan during
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: the day that at night they also sought comfort and
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: protection for each other, and they were even known to
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: suck each other's thumbs while they slept. That tells you
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: there was a lot these kids did not know how
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: to to deal with. So there is speculation, and it
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: still persists to this day that Robert was potentially sexually abused,
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: but no one has ever, you know, documented it. Robert's mother,
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: once her husband left, she became an alcoholic, and she
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: came from a background of neglect and abuse and brought
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: it into her children's life. She did not do anything
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: to try to break that cycle. Because you truly have
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: to get a lot of help and work through a
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: lot of stuff. And they said that there was very
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: little tenderness shown by her to her children after her
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: husband left, and that she basically lived for alcohol. And
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: it's also been said that Robert was very jealous of
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: his younger brother Ryan because he was no longer the baby.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: He no longer you know. I mean that happens all
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: the time. Now, this is horrible, but it happens. The
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: school teachers lumped all of the Thompson kids into being
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: bad based on the earlier kids. Oh you're so and
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: say's brother, you're going to be horrible too. I had
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 2: an older brother. Teachers I walked in and they would go,
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: oh crap. And then six weeks they'd be like, oh,
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: y'all are nothing alike. You know, teachers, stop doing that.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: Stop doing it. Okay, that's all I'm gonna tell you.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: Stop doing it now. I mentioned it earlier. Robert steels
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: things more than just on that day. He stole things,
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: but he threw them away.
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: Wait sorry, obviously laughter was needed. So he's basically he's
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: a young criminal with commitment issues. I think as that
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: kids would say, hashtag can relate can relate. I'm there,
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: we needed that laugh.
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: Now, Yes, Robert was also said to be very self destructive,
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 2: and he didn't feel safe or loved in his family
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: were at home, and he was described as shrewd and
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: street wise by a former teacher. Now, the family hadn't
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: been involved with CPS for multiple issues throughout the family's time.
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: Kids had been removed and then allowed to come back. Now,
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: Robert had missed over forty nine days of school out
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: of one hundred and forty days in the school year
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: before he was arrested.
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: You know though, I think at that point, truancy was
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: probably the least of his problems. I'm just gonna toss
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: that out there.
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 2: I know, but I can't help but think if somebody
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: CPS would have stepped in given these children some help,
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: because Robert could also be very helpful, and he helped
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: to take care of his younger brother Ben, who was
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: his half brother. I mean, he wasn't all bad. And
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: think of all of that abuse in trauma at ten
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 2: years old. I mean, hell, I'm going to be fifty five.
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: I sometimes don't know how to deal with situations and
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: act out in the wrong way as a ten year
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: old He just wanted power over something because he had
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: no control over what was happening to him. Not that
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: it's an excuse, sorry, reset Ruth Brabi. You can tell
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 2: us about John.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, so. John Venables was born August thirteenth, nineteen
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: eighty two, in Liverpool, England.
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: It's Jeffer's birthday.
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: He was the middle child.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: Huh, that's Jeffer's birthday. That's Jeffer's birthday. Oh well not
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: eighty two though. Okay, so it's good. August thirty.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're good. He was a middle child of three siblings.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: They Both of his siblings were born with developmental issues.
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: His older brother had tantrums, his younger sister's special needs
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: basically left John feeling overshadowed, and on top of that,
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: his early life was marred by turmoil, instability, emotional neglect,
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: and his parents, Susan and Neil. They had a rocky
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: marriage which ended in divorce when John was three. This
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: separation deeply affected John, as it would anyone else. John
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: was left in his mother's care at that point, and
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: his his mother struggled with mental health issues herself and
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: often found it difficult to manage John's behavior. Now, Because
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: of all of this, the household was it was marred
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: by erratic discipline, frequent episodes of chaos. Says her temper
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: would flare into physical and verbal abuse, while his dad's
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: fleeting presence offered absolutely no stability whatsoever. And as he
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: grew older, if you can consider a ten year old older,
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: he became increasingly disruptive.
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 2: So, I mean, I read some things. He probably had
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: add two. He couldn't sit still, you know. But I
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 2: just have to point out there are many children who
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 2: are raised in dysfunctional families and they do not kill
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: innocent children. Okay. I do, however, believe that it contributes
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 2: to their actions. And I really want to know why
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: what age John and Robert started acting out and why
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: no one tried to help them, because I mean, now
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: we're a little bit more educated, and we know that
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: prevention is the key. But I mean, I also can't
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: help but think if both of the parents and both
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: families were raised in abuse, maybe they just thought that's
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 2: how life was.
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: Right well, and it wasn't just at home. See John
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 1: was teased relentlessly for his squint and for his siblings,
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: because children are well, they're cruel and assholes, and he
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: became an easy target, which provoked him into fits of
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: anger by neighborhood children. Eventually, he was transferred to another
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: school and that's where he met Robert Thompson, and together
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: they became emboldened bullies targeting weaker children. It's not gonna
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 1: be us. We're gonna give it back. And the school tried,
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: as schools do, to separate the boys in school, but
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: they couldn't do anything about it while they weren't there, right,
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, they're not at school every single hour of
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 1: every single day now. Now. By the time he was ten,
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 1: John had a reputation for truancy and petty mischief. Sounds familiar.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: He was usually wandering the streets instead of attending classes.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: He preferred to engage in shoplifting and other minor offenses.
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: And I'm gonna be honest with you. I don't know
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: about you, but I preferred to dabble in Pokemon or
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: Digimon when I was ten, not necessarily the shoplifting.
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 2: And when I was ten, I dabbled with Sean Cassidy
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 2: and Barbies. Didn't start dabbling in Pokemon until I was
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 2: fifty two.
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: Hey, better late than never, so so Listen. We've talked
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: about a lot, but it's definitely important to kind of
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: talk about the events of that day in a concentrated
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: fashion to understand just how quickly a brilliant a brilliant light,
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: the brilliant light of James Balger could fade or in
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 1: this case, be completely snuffed out entirely.
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 2: I'm going to just tell everybody again, I suggest if
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 2: you have a drink, drink it, or take a deep breath,
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: eat some popcorn, because I mean, this really shook me
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 2: to see how fast this happened.
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: All right, So I will tell you all this before
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 1: I hop into this timeline. I was able to take
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: a map that you're going to see in a moment
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: and figure out certain locations, and I was able to
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: get the street view and things like that, so you'll
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: see you'll see some of what it looked like to
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 1: a degree. Now, this street view is obviously current. I
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: don't know if much has changed though, and I think
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: I think you might agree with me what you see
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: the photos. So Friday February twelfth, nineteen ninety three, at
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 1: eleven am, Robert Thompson and John Venables skip school in Walton, Liverpool.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: The boys spend the morning wandering around the New Strands
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: shopping center in Boodle. At one thirty pm, CCTV footage
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: captures Robert and John inside the Strand shopping center. The
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: boys are seen stealing various items, including sweets, batteries, and
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 1: a can of blue modeling paint. At three point thirty
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 1: eight pm, James Balger, two years old, is at the
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 1: shopping center with his mother, Denise Balger. While Denise is
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: distracted inside a butcher's shop, James wanders out of the
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: store turn is lured away by Robert and John. At
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: three forty pms, CCTV footage captures John and Robert leading
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 1: James by the hand through the shopping center. Now at
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 1: three forty five pm to four PM, several witnesses see
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 1: the two older boys walking with James in Some report
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 1: that James appeared distressed or was crying. One witness sees
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 1: the boys laughing as James stumbles and falls. At four
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: fifteen pm, the trio arrives at the Leeds Liverpool Canal.
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: John and Robert attempt to push James into the water,
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: but stop when James resists. They then leave the area
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: and continue walking. At four from four point thirty to
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: that right there is the Leeds Liverpool Canal, and I
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 1: would imagine that that is the top of what some
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 1: of your photos earlier showed the search being through the canal.
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: From four thirty to five thirty PM, over the next hour,
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: the boys walk James through Liverpool. They cover distances of
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: over two miles. Several adults notice the trio and feel
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: something as it's off, but no one intervenes. One woman
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 1: offers to help James after noticing he's crying, but John
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: and Robert tell her that James is their little brother.
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: And at one point they stop at a reservoir where
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: they allegedly debate whether to drown James, but they ultimately
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: continue walking. And I'm going to show you a few
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: photos as we go through this. So they took a
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: left onto Park Street once they kind of got out
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: of the Strand shopping center area, and then they immediately
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: took a right onto Lytherland Road, which is fun to say.
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: And then they took a left onto A fifty fifty
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: seven or five oh five seven, And this is a
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: major thoroughfare. This is not something that is small. They
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: continued on straight through to Oxford Road, which is straight
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: ahead there in that photo. And then they took a
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: right onto Fernhill Road. And again this is a this
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: is not like a quiet place. So once they hit
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: Fernhill Road, they ended up down towards A fifty to
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 1: fifty eight, and they took a left and they started
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 1: heading down a fifty to fifty eight, and they continued
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: onto Breeze Hill and right as soon as Breeze Hill
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: turns into Queen's Drive, they took an exit and they
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 1: ended up at A fifty nine. Now I will say this,
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 1: it's very possible that that highway was a lot smaller
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: back in the nineties. I would imagine that's probably true. Yeah,
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 1: But but this is this is generally the path that
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 1: they did take. So they exited fifty fifty eight to
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: a fifty nine. They made a U turn, they went
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 1: too far, they went too far, and for some reason
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: they made a U turn at Mandeville Street and again
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: this is all shops. They turned right onto Church Road
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 1: West and then they continued down to City Road and
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: they exited City Road at the train tracks under the bridge.
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: Now that bridge right there, those are the train tracks
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: that they that's those are the train tracks underneath, and
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: that's where they hopped down and went down the train tracks,
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 1: and they traveled down the tracks. In this photo it's
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: actually on the other side of the fence. There there's
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 1: a there's a row after row after row of homes
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 1: and there's a fence that separate that area where the
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 1: train tracks are, which is typical that's usually what happens.
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 1: But in this case, and then at five point forty
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 1: five pm they arrived at the disused railway embankment in Walton,
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: which right over that right in that tree area and
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 1: a little bit past that's that area in terms of
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: where they arrived. In six to seven pm everything happens,
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: and so in this entire two to three mile walk,
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: hopefully you guys have a better idea as close as
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: I could get it to what it looks like, because
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 1: well Google Maps wasn't around at that point. Now, once
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: they arrived there, obviously that was the site of James's murder.
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: From six to six thirty pm, Robert and John subject
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 1: James to horrific abuse. They throw stones and bricks at him.
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 1: They beat him with a twenty two pound iron bar
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: and kick him. They pour blue modeling paint into James's eyes.
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 1: James suffers over forty two injuries, including skull fractures. The
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: boys remove some of James's clothing, and forensic evidence later
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 1: suggests a possible sexual assault. From six thirty PM to
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: seven pm, believing James is dead, the boys lay his
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 1: body across the railway tracks. They play stones and rubble
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 1: over him in an attempt to disguise the body, and
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: at seven pm, Robert and John leave the crime scene
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: and walk home as though absolutely nothing happened. And now
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 1: now Terry's gonna talk just talk a bit about the
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: public outrage and media coverage. And as she does this,
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 1: I just kind of want you to think about what
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 1: would have what would it have been like today? And
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: maybe you can. I can't, for the life of me
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 1: imagine how insane this coverage would be, but I'm gonna
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: let Terry cover it. From nineteen nineties, I'm.
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: Gonna tell you the media coverage was insane, and I'm
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 2: going to just tell you I think I can be
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 2: pretty positive when I say it would be even worse today.
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 2: It would be even worse. The media went into overdrive
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 2: because it went international like in days. I mean, the
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: defense attorneys even tried to stop the trial due to
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 2: the extensive extensive media coverage saying, how could two ten
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 2: year olds get a fair trial? Because, guys, some of
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 2: the headlines were like, how do you feel now, you
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 2: little bastards with pictures of Robert and John, these ten
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 2: year old you know, but I'm going to also tell
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: you they bombarded James's parents. So James's mom, Denise found
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 2: out she was pregnant a month after James was killed.
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 2: Here she is newly pregnant, dealing with the loss of
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 2: her son, because remember she lost her daughter. They camped
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 2: out on their doorstep. They couldn't go home, they had
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: to go somewhere else. They couldn't go to the grocery
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 2: store because they would yell comments at her. How does
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 2: it feel that the monsters killed your baby? Who in
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 2: their right mind does that shit? I mean, I get
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 2: you want news, I get you on information, but you
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 2: don't do that. The media also went after John and
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 2: Robert's families and blame them for their son's actions. Guys.
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 2: The stories were saying, how the mothers turn the boys
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 2: into monsters, not the fathers. The fathers were not being blamed,
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 2: mind you, one of them walked out on family. They
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 2: weren't blaming the dads, they were blaming the moms, which
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 2: shame on them right now. They public and the media
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 2: were also outraged because while the boys after they were arrested,
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 2: they didn't know what to do with two ten year olds.
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 2: They did not have jail facilities for ten year olds,
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 2: so they basically made them jail cells. Well, their mother
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 2: could stay with them overnight and they weren't left alone,
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 2: and the public went crazy about it, and I get it,
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 2: I get it, but I also, on the other hand,
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 2: they are still ten. I mean, I don't know, That's
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 2: what I said. There's so many things I don't know.
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 2: And the media was calling and a lot of the
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 2: public saying that they wanted the boys to be put
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 2: to death or minimum prison in life for life. That's
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 2: what they were calling for before the trial, before they
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 2: saw the evidence, you know, And I have to you know,
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 2: just when reading everything, I can only imagine the police
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 2: officers they were thinking they were in the twilight zone,
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 2: because what reality would you believe that two ten year
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 2: old boys would kill a two year old for no reason,
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 2: no reason, you know.
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 1: Doesn't even sound like a saw plot. It's like it's
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 1: not it doesn't enter. Yeah.
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Now I did read an interesting case study that's
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 2: called bulgar in the UK. The media, the public and
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 2: the government reaction. We will put a link in the
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 2: notes if you want wants to read it. It was
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 2: very interesting. Back then, you didn't have media twenty four
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 2: to seven like we do today, and that's when they
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 2: didn't have parameters in place to not put two ten
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 2: year old's pictures on the front of a newspaper. And
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 2: they referred to them as freaks, monsters, evil, and they
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 2: called them animals and the other thing. The media had
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 2: no qualms about sharing the horrific details. The court kept
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 2: as much of the horrific stuff out because the media,
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 2: every little ounce they got, they were putting. They had
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 2: no problems with it, and so that is one reason
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 2: the courts stopped, you know, letting some of the information
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 2: get out. But it was a true shit show and
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 2: I cannot believe they did it to James's parents. Even
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 2: James's parents never went back to their house after the
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 2: day he was found. They had to relocate.
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the media needs to do.
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 1: Better, oh for sure, And they've only gotten worse.
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 2: I said, if it was to happen more day it so, yeah,
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 2: it was insane. It would be worse because we're twenty
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 2: four to seven now.
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 1: So so, in terms of surprise to everybody the trial.
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 1: Pre trial arrangements, John and Robert were given false identities.
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 1: They were housed separately insecure units, two different children's homes
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 1: they were kept at, and they pretended to be well.
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 1: They pretended to be older and convicted of unrelated crimes
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: to ensure anonymity, authorities withheld counseling to avoid blaming each
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 1: other for the most brutal aspects of the crime. In
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 1: terms of court proceedings, May fourteenth, nineteen ninety three, the
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 1: boys pleaded not guilty at the Liverpool Crown Court. John
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: hyperventilated in court, couldn't even handle the police lineup. Meanwhile
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 1: Robert sat there like, well, like a kid who got
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 1: caught cheating on a math test and decided to just
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 1: just wait it out and see what happens. The courtroom experience,
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 1: to put it mildly, was theater of the absurd. But
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 1: while that sounds sounds like a joke or a or
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 1: a jab, who could have possibly been court ready for
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 1: a tragedy or a crime like this, So let me
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 1: explain briefly what I mean by by what made it absurd.
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 1: They needed to have a special raised platform built so
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 1: that the boys could see over the railings. It was
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 1: two kids on booster seats in front of an entire
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 1: courtroom while a carpenter in the background bolted the chairs
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 1: down in case someone threw what truly wild?
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 2: I mean when I was research and I had to
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 2: stop because I kept visualizing two ten year olds sitting
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 2: on booster seats in a courtroom with court proceedings that
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 2: are meant for adults. And I'm going to tell you
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 2: it cost me serious stress because court proceedings confuse me. Sometimes.
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 2: I do not think two ten year olds should be
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 2: in this type of sitting, But on the other hand,
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 2: I also think they need to be held accountable. So
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 2: but how much of this court stuff did they really understand?
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 2: So they're of course sitting there looking bored because it's
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 2: all over their head. If it confuses the heck out
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 2: of me at my age, yeah.
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't understand corporate seating until Producer Terror or
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 1: Apamy or any of our other other buds or mods
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 1: that are here, until they explain some things to me.
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 1: I was just like and still I'm which is of
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 1: no surprise to anybody. Now. The other thing that made
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 1: this absurd was, huh.
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 2: The two ten year olds, how are they supposed to
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 2: understand no idea.
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 1: I guess you're just gonna play show and tell. It's
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 1: just one long game of show and tell with serious repercussions.
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 1: So the hours of the trial this is. This also
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 1: made it absurd. But the hours of the trial were
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 1: set to match the school day schedule ten thirty am
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 1: to three thirty pm, because apparently they still needed recess.
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 1: Within the trial, john psychological profile was talked about, and
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 1: you can basically call that sonic the hedgehog, but make
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 1: it safe. John's mom described him as quote well behaved
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 1: but hyperactive, which is a trans for a good kid
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 1: when not climbing the walls like a caffeated squirrel, which
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 1: I feel qualified to say because I am indeed a
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 1: caffeinated squirrel who was bit by a squirrel. That's another
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 1: story for another time. We mentioned this earlier, but in
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 1: the context of the profile presented in court, I'm gonna
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 1: do it again. John's family situation included his older brother,
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 1: who had a temper younger sister had special needs, and
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 1: his parents slipped up more times than Ross and Rachel
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 1: on Friends. When asked about his dreams, John revealed his
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 1: first wish and these are dreams not like his his
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 1: his sleeping dreams. But what does he dream about for
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 1: the future? But John revealed his first wish was to
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 1: get out of prison, his second one was to turn
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 1: the world into a chocolate factory, and his final wish
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 1: was to live forever with unlimited cash. Honestly relatable. I
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 1: hear you, I hear you. When when he was asked
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 1: if he could become anyone, who would he be, Well,
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 1: he'd be Rocky Balboa or Sonic the Hedgehog. I mean,
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 1: why dreams and you can dream of punching people are
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 1: out running your problems. But I think the bottom line
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 1: for this was that he was a child. His profile
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 1: indicated he was a child, and let's be honest, who
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 1: doesn't want to be Sonic? Just he's gonna toss that
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 1: out there now. In terms of Robert's psychological profile, he
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 1: could be summed up to drama meets denial. Psychiatrist Eileen
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 1: Wizard handed Robert Dolls to reenact the murder he enthusiastically
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 1: demonstrated how John's doll beat the James doll while and
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: while he was a child. He seemed to be explaining
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: how John was the violent one and he was he
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 1: was the neutral party or the hero, and I would
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 1: imagine the psychiatrist was probably like, sure, jan now, when
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 1: asked about James's sexual injuries, Robert suddenly went radio.
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 2: Silence, so quiet, And we'll talk about this more later.
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 2: But this was a huge red flag and a miss
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 2: for the courts. Huge red flags.
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, for sure, for sure. Now, now, the Balgar
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 1: family attended daily except for Denise. James's mom was seven
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 1: months pregnant, and she was absolutely being hounded by the press,
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 1: so she wasn't there daily.
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 2: Which is totally effed up that the press would do that.
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 2: But I also want to say, why the hell didn't
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 2: the court find a way to bring her in where
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 2: she wasn't seen, because there are secret entries into courts
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 2: and underground tunnels. Why did they not put that mom
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 2: in that play? Why did they make her walk in front?
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 2: Because she should have had the right to attend the trial.
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 2: But I also believe it probably was for her mental
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 2: health and to protect the child she was carrying.
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 1: Yes, Yes, Now, as as Terry mentioned earlier, the present society,
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 1: both national and international, saw dollar signs. I mean, can
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 1: we take a moment to understand that this entire nation
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 1: collectively decided that this woman's grief should be treated like
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 1: reality TV, which is like next week on Trauma Hour,
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 1: she tries to grocery shop. It's like something incredible, some incredible,
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 1: horrible vision of impractical jokers. Tabloids dubbed all of the
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 1: witnesses the Liverpool thirty eight and immediately shamed them from
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 1: not stopping John and Robert while they were walking with James. Now,
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 1: it's hard to say, and there's a lot there that
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 1: really needs to be discussed and unpacked. But we'll have
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 1: to talk about the bystander effect some other day now.
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 1: In terms of the verdict, November twenty fourth, nineteen ninety three,
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 1: the jury delivered their verdict. Robert sat there, stone faced,
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 1: knitting gloves for his baby brother, like a man auditioning
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 1: for lame is John. Ever, the emotional wreck sobbed loudly
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 1: because crying well, it worked great during police interrogations. So
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 1: not know again? Ten uh ten there were ten, but
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 1: no matter the tears. The judge wasn't gonna pull any
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 1: punches on the day, and the judge described the murder
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 1: as quote, an act of unparalleled evil and barbarity, which
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 1: sounds like something out of a Game of Thrones episode,
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 1: and honestly not wrong because it was. It absolutely was.
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 2: As someone who's never seen Games of Throne, so don't
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 2: understand it. I want to know what ten year old
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 2: knows what the hell barbarity means. I mean, if you're
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 2: going to punish a child, you need to speak in
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 2: child language that they can understand, or it has zero impact.
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 2: It's just like the sound of the teacher talking on snoopy, right,
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 2: rah rah rah right right right right, yeah that one.
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 2: Because I doubt they've seen Games of Throne either, So yep, bad.
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 2: That was a misstep in my opinion.
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, so there's sentence the boys basically would
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 1: remain like quote until they matured, which is the translation
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 1: is we're going to keep those two in time out
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 1: until we can figure out what to do with them. Yeah.
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 2: Now they wound up and it went back and forth.
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 2: I believe I read they were given eight years, so
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 2: basically till they were eighteen. Now I have thought about
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 2: their sentences so much, and I to this moment can't
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 2: say what an appropriate sentence would have been for two
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 2: ten year olds for what they did. I their brains
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 2: were not even halfway developed yet, so I don't know.
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not gonna say they didn't show some
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 2: sociopathic tendencies or they didn't show some bad things, but
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 2: I honestly don't to this moment, I can't decide what's appropriate.
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know what's wild is that someone in
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 1: the gallery when they were sentenced said, how do you
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 1: feel now, your little bastards? And that is the most
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 1: British thing that could possibly be set at a trial.
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 1: You almost expect someone else to chime in, would you
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 1: like some tea with that guilt? It's just And then
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 1: Wilson Grammitt come out the side and it's just crazy.
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 1: So in short, the trial had everything it had murdered drama,
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 1: public outrage, and booster seats, but there was an impact.
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 1: Both families were forced to leave their homes and they
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 1: were given new names after the verdict due to the
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 1: media publishing stories that demonized the boys and their families. Okay, so,
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 1: but Terry's going to talk a little bit about the
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 1: next step, and I'm not going to spoiler alert.
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 2: It only Robert and John's families were giving new identities.
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 2: James's family was not given new idea identities, not saying
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 2: they would have taken them, but they weren't even offered
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 2: that they could never go back to their home. So
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 2: I do not understand why the killers families got witness
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 2: protection and the other family didn't. So so in two
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 2: thousand and one, Robert and John were granted new identities
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 2: and lifelong anonymity, basically like witness protection. Here's the thing, guys,
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 2: when they released them when they were eighteen, it was
• 1:41:36
  Speaker 2: discovered they were taught how to lie and not ad
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 2: meant to their crimes, and how to not give away
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 2: who they were. Literally they were taught for witness protection
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 2: how to be liars. And then the courts banned anyone
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 2: from revealing their new identities and that if you did,
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 2: you could be charged for doing so. I mean, I
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 2: get the ten year olds, but why does the whole
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 2: family and why didn't James's family. If you're gonna give
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 2: it to the Killer's family, you offer it to the
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 2: other family who has suffered, right and if you thought
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 2: the public and media outrage was bad dear of the trial,
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 2: Oh it went insane on steroids afterwards. Now, according to
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 2: The Daily Mail, the statement Thompson gave to the parole
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 2: board in two thousand and one before he was released
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 2: from prison and given a new identity, oh my gosh.
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 2: He admitted that he's ashamed of what he did, but
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 2: he said it also made him a better person because
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 2: he had a better life and a better education after
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 2: spending eight years in detention. He had a better life.
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 2: They had gaming systems, they had designer clothes donated to
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 2: them unused. They had a better life than what they
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 2: had growing up. That is not what detention is supposed
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 2: to be. Now, James's father, Ralph, tried to force the
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 2: kids or the kids the courts to give out their names,
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 2: but he lost that fight. Now Robert's family had to
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 2: once again be moved after he was parolled and his
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 2: name got out due to attacks and threats. Now, I'm
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 2: gonna just tell you, we don't do this in the
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 2: US that I'm aware of. You made your bed, you
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 2: sleep in it, right, You get witness protection because you
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 2: turned in somebody and something Bad's gonna happen. You don't
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 2: get witness protection because you did the bad.
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 1: I will say this as a juvenile, if there is
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 1: a chance of rehabilitation, and and and here's that's the
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 1: difference is because the US prison system is not focused
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 1: on rehabilitation.
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 1: There are many countries they are I understand for the.
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 2: Two kids, Yeah, but why the rest of their family?
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 2: And now that when they were released, they are put
• 1:44:43
  Speaker 2: on basically what we call parole here. They still have
• 1:44:47
  Speaker 2: to answer to the courts for the rest of their life,
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 2: so the courts still own them. And I am glad
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 2: they did get an education in there. You know that
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 2: we didn't just lock him away and throw away the key,
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 2: and they had the chance. I just don't understand why
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 2: their entire family, the government paid to move them and
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 2: give them new identities, paid for it. So I well, let's.
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 1: Let's kind of let's talk about where they are now
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 1: for as best as we can, shall We convicted in
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 1: ninety three, Robert Thompson was released from custody in two
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 1: thousand and one. Good god, that picture he's so tiny.
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 1: He was. He was released at the age of eighteen
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 1: after serving eight years in a secure unit. He was
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 1: granted anonymity for life under a court order and given
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 1: a new identity to protect him from public scrutiny impossible
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 1: vigilante attacks, since which I love. I love the fact
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 1: that the UK is planning for Batman. Since his release,
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 1: his current whereabouts remained largely unknown to the general public,
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 1: which is how it's supposed to be. So he was
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 1: given that new identity, which also included a backstory upon
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 1: his release. Details after two thousand and one are kept
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 1: strictly confidential under the terms of the order. Now the
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 1: legal protection is rare and it's extremely controversial, but it
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 1: was put in place to ensure his safety from potential retribution,
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 1: which considering the thoughts of the public for both the
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 1: right and wrong suspects, as we heard earlier. While I'm
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 1: not entirely sure I agree with it, it seems like it's
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 1: the right decision based on logic. According to reports from
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 1: officials involved in his rehabilitation, Thompson was considered to have
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 1: been fully rehabilitated by the time of his release. He
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 1: was reportedly remorseful for his role in the murder and
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 1: had engaged in therapy and education while in detention. Now,
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 1: while it might be hard for us to recognize in
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 1: the States. It's, as I've said, not like we put
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 1: a premium on rehabilitation in prisons. I mean, you remember
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 1: the fella in Canada who ended up on the bus,
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 1: had a breakdown and killed or eight people. If you
• 1:47:10
  Speaker 1: remember this story, he has been rehabilitated and released and
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 1: he has not committed one more crime. He has actually
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 1: been a contributing member to society. Because they focus on
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 1: that rehabilitated, it's just Robert Thompson's the exact same situation.
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 1: He hasn't reoffended, he hasn't come into contact with just
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 1: the justice system. Again, the anonymity order protecting Thompson is
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 1: so comprehensive that any attempt to reveal his identity, whereabouts,
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 1: or new life is punishable by contempt of court, which
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 1: can carry a prison sense. So the media and the
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 1: public are forbidden from publishing details that could expose his identity,
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 1: such as his name, appearance, location. The cost of maintaining
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 1: his anonymity, including legal protections creating his new identity. It's
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 1: all been a source of public criticism, with some arguing
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 1: that it seems that his rights outweigh the rights of
• 1:48:07
  Speaker 1: the James Bulger family then to know you know where
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 1: he is, because not even the Bulger family knows where
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 1: he is. He's anonymous. H Let's move on to John,
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 1: shall we.
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 2: Now I did find something that he has been with
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 2: his partner. He is in a same sex partnership with
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 2: someone and they have been together for many years. And
• 1:48:38
  Speaker 2: he's apparently he was rehabilitated and is still giving back
• 1:48:44
  Speaker 2: and trying to confidentially give back because he still believes
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 2: he deserves punishment. But just share that.
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 1: Listen, if you give any more tips, we're going to
• 1:48:54
  Speaker 1: be called to court in the Parliament. And I'm perfectly
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 1: fine with wearing a wig. So just that out there.
• 1:49:01
  Speaker 2: No, not going to do it. But I mean, rehabilitation
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 2: is adult rehabilitation is the thing. I mean. I could
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 2: have got on the dark web and done some digging,
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 2: but I decided I no. So now let's talk about
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 2: John Vinables. Oh those babies. John was paroled on license,
• 1:49:21
  Speaker 2: which is, like I said, parole in two thousand and one.
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 2: He was sent back to prison in February twenty ten
• 1:49:29
  Speaker 2: for having indecent photos of children on his computer, which
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 2: was discovered when they were trying to move him for
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 2: his own safety. He was released in August of twenty thirteen.
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 2: He was sent back in twenty seventeen for the same thing. Now,
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 2: what I want to tell you about parole that I
• 1:49:53
  Speaker 2: have a problem with or when they call license they're
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 2: protecting his anonymity because of what he did when he
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 2: was a kid. You screw up and you go back twice.
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 2: Why do you still get that same consideration. You didn't
• 1:50:09
  Speaker 2: do what we asked of you. Why should we do
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 2: what we told you we were gonna do. Okay, Now
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 2: he's currently still in prison. His parole was denied in
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 2: December of twenty twenty three. They don't feel he'd be safe.
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 2: In the Parole board reports, he states and accepted that
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 2: he had a long term sexual interest in children, even
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 2: after taking part in considerable amount of work in prison
• 1:50:37
  Speaker 2: to address the you know, the airy risk. I believe
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 2: in rehabilitation. You can't change a petty. Once a petty
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 2: always appeared.
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 1: To a manny. You just have to pay more.
• 1:50:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think he should. They should revoke the
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 2: ruling about not sharing his name because he is a
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 2: registered sex offender. Now three strikes, you're out.
• 1:51:04
  Speaker 1: In my book, Yeah, it's like, do you do you
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 1: just like delete the old name, put the new name
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 1: on the sex register, you know, the offenders registry. I
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 1: don't know. Let's talk uh, let's talk about Ralph balger So. Ralph,
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 1: the father of James, has remained a vocal and determined
• 1:51:23
  Speaker 1: figure in the year since his son's murder. As of
• 1:51:26
  Speaker 1: recent reports, Ralph continues to live in the UK, where
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 1: he has devoted his life to seeking justice for James
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 1: and advocating for changes in the justice system. We should
• 1:51:36
  Speaker 1: absolutely try to get him on. His marriage to James's mother, Denise,
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 1: ended in the aftermath of the murder, which, unfortunately is
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 1: fairly calman in the aftermath of a tragedy like this.
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 1: The grief, as with others, created strain and emotional distance
• 1:51:52
  Speaker 1: between them, and Ralph later did remarry and reportedly had
• 1:51:57
  Speaker 1: a daughter from his second marriage. Oh he has had
• 1:52:02
  Speaker 1: several daughters from his second ar excuse me, ooh three.
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 1: Ralph has been a tireless advocate for Sorry, the on
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 1: point fact checking is amazing. Ralph has been a technology
• 1:52:20
  Speaker 1: Ralph has been a tireless advocate for changes in the
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 1: UK's legal system, particularly regarding how child killers or killers
• 1:52:28
  Speaker 1: who are children are handled and punished. Now, this comes
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 1: through work in his opposition to the anonymity orders, criticism
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 1: of the justice system as a whole, and books media,
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 1: where he published a book titled My James in twenty thirteen.
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 1: Ralph is widely excuse me, widely regarded as a figure
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 1: of strength and resilience. Though his views, particularly his calls
• 1:52:54
  Speaker 1: for Ventables and Thompson to be publicly identified, have sparked debate,
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 1: and honestly, if you can spark a debate, that's a
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 1: great thing.
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 2: So yes, like you said, Hen Denise split up eighteen
• 1:53:08
  Speaker 2: months after James was killed, which even the birth of
• 1:53:14
  Speaker 2: their son, Michael couldn't prevent that. They dealt with their
• 1:53:19
  Speaker 2: grief and tragedy in different ways. Now Denise has been
• 1:53:23
  Speaker 2: a fierce mom and fighting for her son has continued.
• 1:53:30
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 1:53:30
  Speaker 2: Like I mentioned, she had a child right after James died.
• 1:53:37
  Speaker 2: She was pregnant during the trial. Now they divorced, she
• 1:53:42
  Speaker 2: did remarry. In fact, her and her husband Stewart, just
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 2: renewed their vows in twenty twenty three while celebrating their
• 1:53:50
  Speaker 2: twenty five year anniversary. She also has written a book
• 1:53:55
  Speaker 2: and she is just amazing. She is very active in
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 2: trying to keep John Venables behind bars after his latest conviction,
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 2: but she doesn't believe his identity should be released. She
• 1:54:13
  Speaker 2: said she does not want his murder on her hands,
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 2: and I kind of can. She knows what it's like
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 2: for someone to lose a family member to murder, so
• 1:54:27
  Speaker 2: I think that's now something interesting. In twenty sixteen, a
• 1:54:32
  Speaker 2: man was convicted of stalking her because he was infatuated
• 1:54:36
  Speaker 2: in stuff with her because of what she went through. Yeah,
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 2: so I said, why didn't they get new identities? But
• 1:54:46
  Speaker 2: in twenty seventeen, she received the British Citizens Award for
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 2: her Service to the Community for her work with the
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 2: James Bulger Memorial Trust, and she's currently still a trustee
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 2: for that trust and to she is still a mom
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 2: to Michael, Thomas and Leon. They all call her Supermom.
• 1:55:06
  Speaker 2: They all said they never got to meet James, that
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 2: they know about James, and their mom has never tried
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 2: to shy away from letting them know because she was
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 2: a little bit of a helicopter mom. She tells in
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 2: media that she had to learn how to balance that
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 2: fear of something happening to your child and giving them
• 1:55:34
  Speaker 2: the space they need to grow up when they were older. So,
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, I am just so happy that you know,
• 1:55:44
  Speaker 2: she survived.
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And here's the thing about this case. It's a
• 1:55:54
  Speaker 1: true crime story that makes you want to simultaneously cry,
• 1:55:57
  Speaker 1: yell into the void, and maybe flip a table if
• 1:56:00
  Speaker 1: you're you know, emotionally capable of multitasking. It's it's like
• 1:56:04
  Speaker 1: a Dirk and Twisting twisted episode of Scooby Doo, except
• 1:56:09
  Speaker 1: the bad guys are literal children, and instead of unmasking
• 1:56:12
  Speaker 1: them at the end, society just slaps on a lifetime
• 1:56:16
  Speaker 1: of ananimity and hands them new names, fresh identities, and
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 1: apparently all second chances in the world. Also, what are
• 1:56:23
  Speaker 1: they gonna yell when Scooby Doo gets them? I could
• 1:56:26
  Speaker 1: have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you,
• 1:56:28
  Speaker 1: Meddle some classmates. I don't know, you know, just it's this.
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 1: This case has always haunted me. I had always said
• 1:56:40
  Speaker 1: that I'd never truly I'd always said it that I'd
• 1:56:42
  Speaker 1: never cover it, just because of how hard this was. However,
• 1:56:46
  Speaker 1: here we are, and I think that bringing this to
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 1: the forefront for everybody who's watching, I think it's a
• 1:56:54
  Speaker 1: good thing. I think that I think that it does
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 1: need to be talked about, and I think that ultimately
• 1:56:59
  Speaker 1: things like bystander, you know, the bystander effect, and kids
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 1: this young and kind of like those kind of things
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 1: need to be studied and talked about. It's important because
• 1:57:10
  Speaker 1: if they're not, then it just goes into the ether,
• 1:57:13
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 1:57:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'll tell you this case has given me
• 1:57:18
  Speaker 2: nightmares and has caused me to seriously think about the
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 2: world we live in. I mean, it's been jarring to
• 1:57:25
  Speaker 2: cover it because I think back to when my kids
• 1:57:28
  Speaker 2: were young, and I was always told that when you
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 2: put them in time out, it should be a minute
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 2: for each year of their age. Anything under that wasn't
• 1:57:38
  Speaker 2: enough consequences. Anything over that was too much punishment because
• 1:57:43
  Speaker 2: they don't understand the concept of time at that time.
• 1:57:48
  Speaker 2: So I think of that and I think about the punishment.
• 1:57:53
  Speaker 2: I don't know what the right answer is on how
• 1:57:55
  Speaker 2: much time they should have gotten, because if you look
• 1:57:57
  Speaker 2: at one of them rehabilitated, that dil did well, the
• 1:58:03
  Speaker 2: other one not so much. But if the courts would
• 1:58:07
  Speaker 2: have looked into the sexual assault flags on James's body
• 1:58:14
  Speaker 2: and forced John to talk about it, just maybe he
• 1:58:21
  Speaker 2: could have been rehabilitated because he was only ten and
• 1:58:28
  Speaker 2: they didn't, And that's why I said they failed him
• 1:58:32
  Speaker 2: on that regard by not doing that. You should have
• 1:58:35
  Speaker 2: pushed the kids to talk about it because there was
• 1:58:37
  Speaker 2: evidence that happened, so you should have done it. This
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 2: case disturbs me, makes my heart hurt for the Bulgar family,
• 1:58:48
  Speaker 2: but also for Robert and John's families. It caused damage
• 1:58:54
  Speaker 2: to everyone that lived in that town. Has anybody thought
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 2: about the class mates and the schoolmates who went to
• 1:59:02
  Speaker 2: school with John and Robert, what kind of impact has
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 2: it had on them? We know what happened to the
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 2: two boys who found James's body. They sought drugs and
• 1:59:16
  Speaker 2: their lives were ruined. So I am very proud of
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 2: James's mom and dad. They have been one of those
• 1:59:26
  Speaker 2: families that is able to take tragedy and move on
• 1:59:31
  Speaker 2: from it, because I don't know how you do it.
• 1:59:34
  Speaker 2: I think Denise being pregnant with Michael probably helped a
• 1:59:40
  Speaker 2: whole lot. And his name is Michael James, so they
• 1:59:46
  Speaker 2: gave him his brother's name. So instead of becoming hateful
• 1:59:51
  Speaker 2: full of piston vinegar, they're still choosing to wake up
• 1:59:56
  Speaker 2: every day and make the best of the life that
• 1:59:59
  Speaker 2: they have. They choose to be happy, and I admire that.
• 2:00:07
  Speaker 2: And I'm glad we covered this case and we're never
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 2: covering it again.
• 2:00:12
  Speaker 1: Correct, correct, And I really appreciate you all hanging in
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 1: there with us and be in there with us during this.
• 2:00:20
  Speaker 1: I think you know, the community that we create here
• 2:00:22
  Speaker 1: is one of a kind and I can't wait to
• 2:00:25
  Speaker 1: actually see that in person too, when when we're live
• 2:00:29
  Speaker 1: and in person. So I just want to let you
• 2:00:32
  Speaker 1: guys know that, well, you know, this is the first
• 2:00:35
  Speaker 1: of many, right. I don't know if we mentioned this,
• 2:00:39
  Speaker 1: but true, Cremo One Time is now going weekly. We
• 2:00:43
  Speaker 1: are not bi weekly anymore. We are now weekly. So
• 2:00:46
  Speaker 1: guess what next week our case is going to be
• 2:00:49
  Speaker 1: Overboard and Gone, which is the deadly plot of Scott Roston.
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 1: And you can find that. You can find us talking
• 2:00:57
  Speaker 1: about that next Thursday nine pm Central eight pm or
• 2:01:01
  Speaker 1: nine pm Eastern eight pm Central. And you know, if
• 2:01:06
  Speaker 1: there's a case that you're interested in, we want to
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 1: hear about it. We want you guys to have involvement.
• 2:01:12
  Speaker 1: So if you can send us case suggestions, that would
• 2:01:15
  Speaker 1: be awesome. And by send us, I mean send our
• 2:01:18
  Speaker 1: producer Tara case suggestions and she's laughing quietly in a
• 2:01:23
  Speaker 1: screen you cannot see. Tara at tcwtmedia dot com. Please
• 2:01:29
  Speaker 1: please please, if you are interested, if you have case suggestions,
• 2:01:32
  Speaker 1: send them in because we would love nothing more than
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 1: to cover something that you are interested in that is
• 2:01:39
  Speaker 1: interesting to us.
• 2:01:42
  Speaker 2: And with us being back every Thursday, we're going to
• 2:01:46
  Speaker 2: be covering one case like we did tonight, so that's
• 2:01:49
  Speaker 2: part of the new format. We're also going to try
• 2:01:52
  Speaker 2: to keep it to an hour and a half. We
• 2:01:54
  Speaker 2: didn't do that this week because we had a lot
• 2:01:56
  Speaker 2: of catching up. It had been a while and this
• 2:01:58
  Speaker 2: case was dark. But we're gonna to cover one case
• 2:02:01
  Speaker 2: in depth and both of us are gonna tag team
• 2:02:06
  Speaker 2: like we did tonight. So I'm very excited about that
• 2:02:08
  Speaker 2: because that'll be the same way we do our in
• 2:02:10
  Speaker 2: person live shows, so that makes me very happy. I
• 2:02:15
  Speaker 2: want to remind everybody please like subscribe and hit the
• 2:02:20
  Speaker 2: notification bell and if you want to become a channel member,
• 2:02:28
  Speaker 2: we will be releasing special content just for you. Guys.
• 2:02:32
  Speaker 2: We will be going live just for you. We will
• 2:02:36
  Speaker 2: live stream our in person live shows for you, and
• 2:02:39
  Speaker 2: we're also going to have just some happy hours in hangouts. Okay, Now,
• 2:02:46
  Speaker 2: we also want you to go to our social media
• 2:02:49
  Speaker 2: pages comment about what you thought about this case, what
• 2:02:54
  Speaker 2: you liked about it, because guys, I want to know
• 2:02:57
  Speaker 2: your thoughts, because I want to hear both sides. There
• 2:03:01
  Speaker 2: are so many debates. We could have debated this case
• 2:03:05
  Speaker 2: for days, you know, I just feel like we could have.
• 2:03:10
  Speaker 2: So please. Also, Midday Missing returns on Monday, February tenth
• 2:03:19
  Speaker 2: at one pm Eastern. So took a hiatus there as well,
• 2:03:24
  Speaker 2: but Midday Missing is back on Monday. Very excited about that. Also,
• 2:03:32
  Speaker 2: always on social media, please, we are trying to be
• 2:03:35
  Speaker 2: better about getting out there and commenting on stuff. We
• 2:03:41
  Speaker 2: are starting a new social media page that we will
• 2:03:44
  Speaker 2: not be interacting on as much. It is for Midday Missing.
• 2:03:49
  Speaker 2: It is going to be where we post all the
• 2:03:51
  Speaker 2: Midday Missing flyers from the show, but also all of
• 2:03:55
  Speaker 2: the missing person flyers and stuff that we're tagged in
• 2:03:59
  Speaker 2: for the podcast for True Crime and Wine Time. We
• 2:04:02
  Speaker 2: wanted a place that people could just go to just
• 2:04:05
  Speaker 2: for missing person's information, so that will be going live
• 2:04:08
  Speaker 2: on Menday as well. So please go join us on
• 2:04:13
  Speaker 2: social media and if you want to see Jasper. He
• 2:04:15
  Speaker 2: is on Instagram too, especially since we know GT's going
• 2:04:19
  Speaker 2: to be cuddling with him in a couple of months.
• 2:04:23
  Speaker 2: So I want to say thank you everyone for joining us.
• 2:04:28
  Speaker 2: Please take care of yourself, your loved ones, and as always,
• 2:04:33
  Speaker 2: stay safe, watch out for crime, and enjoy your one dab.
• 2:04:40
  Speaker 1: And I would like to say thanks for tuning in. Everybody.
• 2:04:43
  Speaker 1: Please take care of yourself, your friends, your family, and
• 2:04:46
  Speaker 1: your community. Do not let anyone dull that sparkle and
• 2:04:50
  Speaker 1: shine on. Shine on you crazy diamonds. We will see
• 2:04:55
  Speaker 1: you next week. Bye everybody, Thank you,