Latest / Women Disrupting Tech / Building a Tech Career on Agency, Agility, and Bouncebackability with Simone Mink | Ep. 133

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Building a Tech Career on Agency, Agility, and Bouncebackability with Simone Mink | Ep. 133 · Women Disrupting Tech

0:10
Welcome to Women Disrupting Tech.
0:13
My name is dear Kanupkas, and on this podcast, I give the women
0:16
who work in tech the platform they need to inspire and empower
0:20
each other. Join me on a journey into the
0:23
world of entrepreneurship, funding biases, and role models
0:28
to discover the strategies for success in the tech industry.
0:32
In other words, how women can disrupt tech.
0:36
Are you ready to listen? Hey, welcome back to Women's
0:45
Instructing Tech and thank you for tuning in to episode 133.
0:51
My guest in this episode is Simone and Mink.
0:54
She's the head of portfolio management at Mandix, but her
0:58
journey didn't start in tech at all.
1:00
In fact, Simone has a degree in leisure management.
1:06
So how did she get from there to leading product strategy at a
1:11
global tech company? In this conversation, we talk
1:14
about exactly that. We discover how she learned to
1:18
code without any technical background, why she asked for
1:21
job interview do over, and how structure became her strength as
1:26
a neurodivergent leader. So here's what you'll take away
1:30
by listening. First, you don't need to be a
1:33
science person to be able to write code.
1:36
Simona shows that curiosity and pattern recognition matter more
1:40
than the right credentials. Second, career growth requires
1:46
self advocacy. Sometimes you need to name the
1:50
gap and step into it yourself. And 3rd, resilience without
1:55
boundaries can turn toxic. Mental toughness isn't a virtue
2:00
when it ignores your physical limits.
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Plus, you'll discover the mindset shift that her mother
2:07
made as Simone kept switching from one role to the next.
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It's a change that reveals how confidence really builds over
2:14
time. With that, let's talk about
2:17
building a tech career on agency, agility and bounce back
2:21
ability, please. Welcome to women disrupting tech
2:24
Simona Mink. Simona Mink, good morning.
2:28
Good to have. You let's start with some
2:30
background on yourself. You started studying leisure
2:35
management, which is not, let's say, an obvious way to get into
2:39
tech. So how did you get from studying
2:43
leisure management to your current role at Mendex?
2:47
Yeah. That was a very lucky break, I
2:50
think as I graduated or wrote my graduation thesis at Rotterdam
2:56
Zoo. And I think I was always a bit
2:59
of a nerd, right? Like already as a kid and I was
3:01
a very creative kid, like I was always drawing and designing
3:04
things. So also at leisure management, I
3:08
was the the one in our work groups that would create the
3:11
logos and the the brand, etcetera.
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So during my graduation thesis, I focused on digitalization of
3:21
education in the zoo. This is 2000 and 11:00-ish.
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So back then apps in zoos weren't really a thing yet.
3:32
There was literally one zoo in the in the whole world, Toronto
3:36
Zoo in Sydney, that had an app that was more than just a map of
3:41
the zoo. That was smart gaming, yeah.
3:44
So I wrote a thesis on how could, what could Rotterdam Zoo
3:48
Blade orb do to digitalize their education?
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They had a lot of education in the zoo.
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How can they make that a more immersive, maybe smart gaming
3:56
experience? And then as a part of that
3:59
thesis, via a friend of mine, I got introduced to a small
4:04
company from Rotterdam called Apps for Web Software
4:09
Development Company. And they were the technical
4:14
advisor during the thesis. Like what does it take to get to
4:16
that? What are the costs, etcetera,
4:18
etcetera. And they saw some of my design
4:22
work and based off of that, they offered me a job as a web
4:27
designer at their organization. And I took that job after a
4:35
short conversation with, with my mother, who was freaking out
4:38
like, why, why are you doing something that you didn't study
4:40
for? What if you failed?
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We're probably going to talk about my Pippi long sucking
4:45
mindset later on, but this is what I found my inner Pippi.
4:50
I was like, well, what if I succeed?
4:52
You know, what's the, what's the worst thing that can happen?
4:54
The worst thing that can happen is that I that I suck at this
4:57
job and that I still have my diploma to fall back on and I'll
5:02
find a job in event management or something else.
5:06
So I took that job in about a month in mules.
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The owner asked me if I wanted to learn how to code as well.
5:13
I was like, yeah, again, has nothing to lose, right?
5:17
Let's do it. So you upgraded from web design
5:21
to coding? Yes.
5:23
In the space of a month. In yeah, in the space of a
5:26
month, and I think within two months after that moment I was
5:31
already building full PHPHTML JavaScript websites because I
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fell in love with coding instantly and I turned out to be
5:42
really good at it. What made it fun for you?
5:46
The coding. It's a puzzle.
5:49
I like puzzles. I like challenging myself, yeah,
5:57
finding out how something works, getting like all the mechanisms.
6:02
And I think what a lot of people who aren't from the the software
6:07
world maybe think that you have to be super technical or that
6:14
kid that's really good at like physics, chemics, math,
6:18
whatever, to, to be good at a job like this, which I
6:21
absolutely was not. I was a languages person.
6:25
Turns out coding is just learning a different language.
6:27
OK, yeah, that that that makes sense.
6:30
And and to your point, I'm also more of a language person.
6:33
I did learn a bit how to code, but this is back in 1980.
6:40
Something Kobo. Oh wow, yeah.
6:45
And the first lesson, obviously, is this hello world thing that
6:49
you that you learn, which is I was like already really proud
6:54
that I could make it. But it's, it's something that
6:57
stuck with me learning. It's indeed learning a different
7:00
language. And, and about solving, I like
7:03
the analogy of solving puzzles. Actually it's I think it's quite
7:08
apartment. Yeah, and the way I learned as
7:11
well, and I'm really thankful for also Neil's mentorship in
7:15
this. And I tried to take that
7:16
approach still when I coach people.
7:19
And I used that when I was a trainer.
7:22
Mendix, my first job at Mendix was technical trainer.
7:24
I used that there as well as he would.
7:26
He wouldn't give me if I, if I got stuck, he wouldn't give me
7:29
the answer immediately. He would give me a Google term
7:32
like Google this. And then if you can't figure it
7:35
out an hour later, I will give you another hint.
7:38
So it was like a little bit of a treasure hunt almost.
7:43
But it also made me like redocumentation.
7:47
And you pick up other things, you try things.
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And it was a very safe space for me to learn and, and also fail
7:56
and, and, and if I got really stuck and I was really
7:58
frustrated, of course he would help me.
8:01
But he always think encouraged me to try to find the solution
8:05
myself and just try. Yeah.
8:08
And I I think that is really powerful way to to learn things
8:13
by just trying and failing and seeing finding some ways that
8:17
don't work. Yeah, 100.
8:19
Percent, yeah. So, so Fast forward, you get to
8:22
Mandix first as a technical trainer, you set.
8:26
And what's your current role? I'm currently head of portfolio
8:30
management. So what happened from being a
8:33
technical trainer to So take us through what happened, yeah, on
8:38
that tradition trajectory. Well, a lot.
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I've been with Mednix almost 10 years, right.
8:45
So this is, I would say it's, it's my longest commitment in
8:49
life besides my cat. But I started as technical
8:54
trainer. I did that job for about 3 1/2
8:56
years, I think. And at some point I, I reached
9:01
that point of I've, I've done this story, I've delivered this
9:05
training so many times. I can like literally dream it
9:08
doing with my eyes closed. And I reached a point where I
9:14
either needed to become more of a specialist, so do like a
9:17
really technical deep dive into the platform to start delivering
9:20
really specialized advanced trainings, or accept that I was
9:26
going to deliver the same story for the rest of my life.
9:30
Neither of those options seemed appealing to me.
9:33
OK, I was about to say that that doing something in perpetuity
9:40
doesn't sound like you, but no. No, absolutely not.
9:46
Luckily at around the same time, they started up a new department
9:51
at Mendex, which was called the AT factory and that was an
9:56
internal Mendex build team. So a group of people that would
10:01
build Mendex applications for Mendex, so to help all of our
10:05
business units with their digital transformation journey.
10:09
And I thought that sounded really interesting.
10:13
And I, I connected with, with Mathias, who, who was going to
10:18
lead that team, lead that department at the time.
10:21
It's only four people, right? So department is a very big
10:23
word, but it grew to 60 people within like a year.
10:26
And at first I had a conversation with him like,
10:27
listen, Mathias, maybe I can join your like department part
10:31
time. Still thinking about that.
10:33
I should become a specialist, right?
10:34
I should do that technical deep dive and pick up my manics
10:39
development skills are really go in depth so I can use that with
10:42
training. And he's like, yeah, sure, we
10:44
can do that. And I think the same evening I
10:47
had a minor panic attack and I thought, what did I do?
10:51
I don't I don't want to I don't want to stay a trainer.
10:55
I should have had a different conversation.
10:58
So the next morning I messaged Mattice.
11:01
I say I think we had the wrong conversation.
11:04
Can I get a do over? And he was like, sure, let's
11:07
have a talk. And then I said, I don't want to
11:11
work for you part time and I don't want to do development.
11:15
I want to work for you full time.
11:17
And I think you are going to need someone that introduces
11:21
agile. Like your team doesn't know how
11:23
to do agile. None of them have worked agile
11:25
before. That coaches the business units
11:28
that we're going to be working with on how to be good product
11:31
owners and someone that manages that whole intake process for
11:35
you. Someone that goes into the
11:37
organization and finds the right, finds the right
11:39
applications to build the right use cases.
11:43
That's what I want to do. How?
11:46
Did how did you come up with that way of yeah, almost
11:53
pitching yourself? So you think you need this, This
11:58
is what you have, this is what you what I think you need and
12:02
therefore you should hire me because that that takes a lot of
12:06
conviction. I think A and BA lot of
12:09
forward-looking vision on, on and understanding what a
12:14
customer really needs. Yeah, I don't know what what
12:19
drove it in that moment. I think since then I've made it
12:22
a very conscious thing that I do.
12:25
I think at that moment it was more instinct, but it comes from
12:30
listening, understanding how the software world works and having
12:36
worked like in a development team, knowing how A-Team
12:40
functions and what what makes a team dysfunction and being able
12:45
to tell him like, hey, I, I have that knowledge.
12:49
I know you don't because Mathaias has a security
12:53
background. He's currently also are are
12:54
field CSO. So I was like, I have that
12:58
knowledge, so that's what I can bring to the table.
13:00
And I think that's something that you need.
13:02
But how did you get the, the, the, let's say the
13:05
self-confidence to pitch it like that?
13:08
Because that that's doesn't come natural to many women and even
13:12
for men, that this is like pretty ballsy I would say.
13:21
I think a mixture of bravado and desperation.
13:27
Bravado and desperation. OK, let's double click on on the
13:31
on the on the bravado piece then.
13:37
The thing is, like, I have that at this point, I'd already
13:40
pivoted my career twice, right? So I'd gone from leisure
13:44
management to being a software developer.
13:48
I'd gone from being a software developer to a technical trainer
13:53
with zero experience. I had already at this point
13:57
built quite like a muscle of having confidence that I can
14:02
learn new things. And I think also a bit of
14:07
arrogance. Still, at this point I will
14:09
admit a bit of arrogance where as a former high coder I was
14:15
like well I've got something to bring to the table here at a
14:18
local company that you know, I know how to how it actually
14:23
works. Yeah.
14:27
But mostly that that that I have a really, really deep conviction
14:34
that I can learn new things. Is it is it a conviction that
14:39
you learn can learn new things because that, that that I
14:42
believe. But what, what I also sense is
14:47
that you, you feel comfortable pitching yourself to someone.
14:56
So you're, you're, you come across as really self confident.
15:00
And I don't see that as arrogant, but per SE, but it's
15:06
more like it. It takes an amount of
15:11
self-confidence and self knowledge.
15:13
And, and I understand the part about I've done this before, but
15:18
then still to go to someone who's senior who's maybe open to
15:24
it, maybe not. And, and and bring their story
15:30
to me is quite yeah, I applaud you for doing it.
15:35
Let me put it that way. Thanks.
15:38
Takes lots of self-confidence. Also that's.
15:41
Yeah, which is, which is funny because I can, I can also be
15:45
really shy and I can also be, yeah.
15:48
Yeah, a lot of people don't think that, but I can really be
15:50
shy. I also have my myself doubts.
15:55
Absolutely. I think what helped in this
15:57
situation, like my dice and I already had a good relationship.
16:00
Like we hadn't worked together, but we knew each other and we
16:04
had a a good sort of social at work connection.
16:10
Yeah. So that helps.
16:11
So one of the things that I was listening to an interview you
16:15
did with our mutual friend Mitchell Wright on journeys of
16:20
empowerment. And one of the things that stuck
16:22
with me is that you sort of feel very happy, almost very
16:30
confident in situations where you're totally insecure about
16:36
the outcome. You, you don't mind taking a bit
16:40
of risk, let me put it that way. So what makes this uncertainty
16:45
energizing? Because for most people this is
16:47
like really paralyzing. And what makes it energizing for
16:52
you? I think it's part ADHD,
16:55
honestly. I'm a total procrastinator.
17:01
Like I, I thrive on that sort of deadline, the pressure you have
17:07
to like do it now or you have three hours left.
17:12
That sort of dopamine rush. Actually saw a talk by someone
17:18
who said you're literally self medicating by procrastinating
17:22
because you're giving your brain like boosts of dopamine.
17:24
And I think these like the chaos works similarly for my brain.
17:32
So it's I don't mind the challenge.
17:37
I also experienced moments of paralysis.
17:39
I do have that, but I mostly have that when I need to
17:43
structure things. So if you would ask me to write
17:47
a document, create a new document, a new structure,
17:51
whatever, and there I can get into paralysis.
17:56
I found that AI is super helpful with that because I can use that
18:01
as a sparring partner and helps me get over that sort of
18:04
writer's block thing. But I do experience that.
18:09
But any situation where it's where there's uncertainty, yes,
18:12
of course it's scary. But either other people have the
18:15
answers. So either I can ask people
18:18
around me and I have no qualms about asking people for advice,
18:24
or no one has the answers. And then all I can do is do my
18:28
best efforts to to get to those answers.
18:32
And maybe this is also where the more agile mindset comes in.
18:37
Everyone or anyone who has worked with me knows that one of
18:40
my favorite things to say is it's we take an iterative
18:43
approach. But that's really how I see the
18:46
world. It's all iterative.
18:47
Like we, we we learn, we try, we fail.
18:51
We learn from that, we try again, we improve.
18:54
And that's how I look at uncertainty as well.
18:57
Like it's baby steps. Yeah.
19:00
But what I also hear you say is that a, that you use the fact
19:04
that you're ADHD, you use that as a strength, you really deploy
19:10
the, the, the fact that you can thrive in chaos because your
19:15
mind is a bit more chaotic than the the average human being.
19:20
You use that to your advantage, but you also sort of de risk
19:26
every step in your head. Is that by making the steps
19:31
smaller or by by just figuring out hey listen, nobody knows
19:39
this so I can't possibly go wrong?
19:45
It's a it's a bit of both. It's a bit of both.
19:47
I I really break down things into small tasks.
19:52
So what I did for example in my previous role product operations
19:57
lead, which led to my current position completely new role
20:03
zero. Well not 0 experience of course
20:06
I had transferable skills, but the the product OPS role was
20:10
new. So I created a 306090 day plan
20:15
in collaboration with with my manager and just broke it down
20:18
into, OK, what? What does success for the first
20:21
quarter look like? What do you think I should be
20:24
focusing on? Can you point me in the right
20:28
direction for certain things where I should get started and
20:31
other things I'll figure out as we go?
20:34
But really breaking it down into bite sized chunks and small
20:40
milestones of success, both for me, but also that I can
20:43
communicate to my stakeholders and my manager.
20:46
It's the same now with my role now.
20:47
I had a portfolio management like that role didn't exist
20:51
until well a couple of weeks ago when they created it for me.
20:57
There is no, I said that fixed view of what good looks like for
21:06
this role. And so I, that means I get to
21:10
shape it and I do that by both understanding the expectations
21:14
from my manager and my stakeholders really well, but
21:18
also by bringing my own flavor to it.
21:20
And the more you can bring your own flavor to a role, I think
21:23
the, the easier it is also to, to connect and to thrive in a
21:26
role. And again, bite sized chunks.
21:29
So what are the short term things that I think are
21:32
reasonable that I can deliver on and also manage your
21:35
expectations that some things will take me over a year?
21:38
Yeah. Is this also part of the the,
21:42
let's say big B long stalking approach for strategy?
21:46
No, not so much, I think. I think that the Pippi
21:49
Longstocking and it's sad because it's she's misquoted on
21:53
this. It's not actually her quote.
21:54
The I've never done it before. So I definitely think I can do
21:57
it. Her her actual quote is a lot
21:59
more along the lines of I've never tried this before.
22:02
So there's no evidence to suggest that I cannot do this.
22:07
But I think that's more that that bravado that yeah, I've
22:11
never done this. So why, why should I believe
22:15
that I cannot do this? Like let's just try and and and
22:18
let's see. So I think that let's try and
22:20
see if if I can do this, that's more to people long stocking
22:26
mindset. And that is the the taking risk
22:28
pivoting your career, being open to learning new things.
22:31
And the more often you do that, the easier it becomes to also
22:35
believe that you can learn new things.
22:37
So if. I was to, yeah, exactly.
22:42
Yeah, you're literally building up a a track record of of
22:46
strength and and how do you say that flexibility, problem
22:52
solving skills. So when I agree, when I took on
22:56
that role at at absolute Rep, if you remember my mom saying, what
22:59
if you feel right? My mom was always is a much more
23:04
careful person than I am. And the first couple of career
23:08
pivots she had still that mindset of, oh, Are you sure you
23:13
want to do this? Nowadays?
23:17
If I tell her, hey, it's time for a new role, she says two
23:21
things. First, she says, yeah, it's been
23:22
two years or however short. She said, I thought it was about
23:27
time that you were going to do something new.
23:30
And then and then she says, I am sure you're going to nail this.
23:36
Oh, that's good. That is like, that's also the
23:40
support you need from parents, from your mother.
23:44
Yeah, so she started believing that I can learn whatever I want
23:51
to set my mind to. Of course, there are boundaries,
23:54
right? Like I will never be a rocket
23:56
scientist. That's not my Forte.
24:00
But within the there's no. Evidence.
24:02
True, true. Well, there is there.
24:04
There is the evidence of how? How like bad I was at school at
24:08
chemics and physics. OK, that that doesn't help.
24:11
Indeed, no. There is some evidence there,
24:16
but within the the the, the realm of like reasonable
24:23
opportunities, right? Why?
24:25
Why couldn't I? I learn new things.
24:28
So can can you take us for a moment that really stretched you
24:33
in that belief that yes, I can do it?
24:36
What do you mean by stretch? Well, tested you on it.
24:40
OK, Yeah, There is one role that I that I took.
24:50
It's probably one of the most formative experiences of my
24:55
life, both in a negative and a positive way.
25:01
At some point after the app delivery manager role at at the
25:05
app factory Multisys team, my next role was head of HR
25:09
technology, which six months later became head of HR
25:13
technology and operations. So this was the the result of me
25:17
pitching to our Mt during COVID. Hey, we are on boarding so many
25:22
people completely virtually. We have really great software to
25:26
quickly build like a better experience for them.
25:31
Let's do that because I would like to create if we can't be
25:36
together physically, I would like to create the environment
25:39
of feeling at home in our organization and finding your
25:43
purpose. Your like your individual.
25:47
Yeah, I mean I was I was already the lead singer of the Mendix
25:50
band at that point, right. So Mendix is really like home to
25:54
me and I feel so comfortable there.
25:57
And I really know what I uniquely bring to this
26:00
organization. And I kind of wanted everyone to
26:04
have that feeling and that sense of belonging, but also
26:06
acknowledging that that means something different for
26:08
everyone, right? So my pitch was let's build an,
26:12
an employee experience suite with our own software that helps
26:15
people find this in this new reality.
26:20
And Mt said, OK, let's do that. Come to our people and culture
26:25
team to HR and do it. And while you do that, can you
26:30
also look at like all the the complete tech stack that we have
26:34
within people and culture. So both towns acquisition and HR
26:37
and see where you can make improvements.
26:39
We need to do a migration and yeah, automate all the things as
26:45
a that's a fantastic opportunity, right?
26:47
Let's go. Just really excited six months
26:52
into that role, my manager asked me if I also want to take on the
26:56
operations team and the operations team is like the
26:58
admin, so the HR admin team and well, she told me that team is
27:06
functioning really smoothly. All you have to do like they
27:10
will do what they need to do. You don't have to worry about
27:12
that. You don't need to learn HR
27:13
stuff. You just focus on where you can
27:16
automate things and maybe introduce them to more agile way
27:19
of working. I was like, yeah, sure, I'll
27:24
take that on. Turns out that team was not
27:27
functioning smoothly at all. Some people called in sick.
27:36
Yeah, quite shortly after I took on that role.
27:42
This is also a mismatch of characters, right?
27:44
I also take some some ownership here of me coming from a like a
27:47
hard technical background, all always having worked with men.
27:51
And all of a sudden I had to be a manager of a of a team of of
27:56
women, which is definitely also I learned a lot there from
27:59
communication, etcetera. But also definitely some people
28:04
thought like I'd they didn't want to have a manager that
28:07
didn't understand what they did. They didn't want a non HR
28:11
manager so as a as a result of that I.
28:15
Thought myself just just a question is that and this just
28:18
me with the thesis, is that part of the fact that they were an
28:25
operations team? And I'll, I'll give you a bit of
28:28
here feel why I think this because I started out my career
28:34
at ING at, at an operations team.
28:37
And back then I remember we got a new manager around the same
28:40
time I joined. And he he didn't know the
28:46
processes. He didn't come from inside.
28:49
He didn't, Well, yeah, he cared about people, but not as much
28:56
about processes. And he had a really, really
29:03
rough first two years, I would say, before he got embedded into
29:10
the team because he wasn't an OPS person.
29:15
So my, my thesis is this is particularly for OPS people it
29:20
is necessary to have a manager or they feel it's necessary that
29:24
they have a manager who knows their stuff in this case, in
29:30
your case HR. Yeah, I think that could very
29:32
well be. They would also look at me like
29:38
you are my manager. You're supposed to give me the
29:40
answers of what I should be doing.
29:44
I don't have those answers for you.
29:46
Now, and you were raised like, oh, here's a YouTube video.
29:50
Here's a Google term. Go fix, Yeah.
29:53
Go figure it out. And I was mostly surprised, like
29:56
why they were doing certain processes inconsistently.
30:00
So I was approaching it very technically right.
30:02
They had a whole process of things to check off.
30:04
For example, when you're on boarding someone.
30:07
And then for person A, they did step three and four.
30:09
And for person B they did step 5:00 and 6:00, but skipped 3 and
30:13
4. And I was like, there's no logic
30:15
into where the system is broken. And it was definitely a very
30:18
broken system. I think if we were would have
30:20
been audited back then, we would have had like some challenges
30:26
and me just approaching it very technical.
30:28
I was like, doesn't make sense. Why are you skipping these steps
30:31
here and doing it there? And but I was just not the
30:34
manager that they needed at that time.
30:37
I think. So as a result, I found myself
30:42
having to learn HR. So I was working, I think 16
30:47
hour days doing 3 jobs at the same time.
30:50
So managing that team also still managing the, the build of the
30:56
employee experience suites and then handling an inbox because
31:01
my people were out on sick leave and there was a like a backlog
31:06
of 2300 emails from employees that had been answered for like
31:11
2 months or longer that we needed to clean up.
31:16
And it was, yeah, roll up the sleeves and, and go.
31:21
And this was a it was a really, really hard time.
31:25
I also quickly realized that I find HRI have a lot of respect
31:31
for HR people. It's hard work, but the the
31:35
contents of the job doesn't appeal to me.
31:37
So I don't get excited about benefits or policies.
31:40
That whole thing, it just doesn't do it for me.
31:44
Did get that team back on track. Also burned out during this
31:48
period. Did not take sick leave because
31:53
I felt that first of all, it I didn't trust my manager at the
31:59
time to not demote me instantly if I would call in sick.
32:03
That had happened before. And at the same time, I was
32:07
finally like, I'd hired some new people and they were super
32:10
junior, but there, there was a +5 happening in the team, right?
32:13
So I felt like we were finally getting out of Yeah, exactly.
32:17
And I did not want to risk me leaving for X amount of time and
32:25
that team slipping back and then having to come back at some
32:29
point and start all over again with fixing it or even worse.
32:33
So in Dutch, we say tumble cars, that's all.
32:36
Yeah, yeah. Grind your teeth.
32:39
Grind your teeth, Yeah. And and just, you know, toughen
32:44
up and and keep going. How did that end up besides that
32:50
you were in a burnout? Yeah, well, the the team
32:55
massively improved, really massively improved.
32:59
What's that? What's that the matter of of
33:02
also the new people coming in with a slightly different
33:06
mindset? Like, OK, let's just roll up the
33:10
sleeves. Yeah, yeah.
33:12
We replaced some people we found.
33:18
Well, one, one person. Sara, if she ever listens to
33:20
this, she knows how massively grateful I am to her.
33:25
Yeah, you started to smile before you mentioned her name.
33:29
Yeah, yeah. She was like my rock.
33:31
And, and, and one thing also one of the other women on the team
33:37
that, that had that manager role before I got it, but she had
33:41
been on, on sick leave and then I got that role basically.
33:47
So there understandably there was frustration on her side.
33:52
And our like the first months in, in that relationship was
33:57
really, really rocky. And at some point I had a
33:59
conversation with her and I was like, if you're coming back,
34:03
because she had been on sick leave for some time during my
34:07
first months there, If you're coming back, then I need you to
34:11
be on my side. Like, we always had a good
34:13
relationship and I really needed you.
34:18
And I think in, in ways I may have failed you, but you
34:21
definitely failed me as well. And if you're coming back now, I
34:25
am more than happy to say let's forget about everything and, and
34:30
start like clean slate with a positive relationship again with
34:35
the two of us. But I need you on my team
34:38
because I, I, I cannot do this job without you.
34:42
And then she opened up about some of her frustrations that
34:44
she had with obviously, like understandably, the, the team
34:47
being taken away from her because she got sick, which I
34:51
totally understood. And we really reconnected
34:55
through that conversation. And she has, she also was a
34:59
massive, massive help after that moment.
35:04
And that really pulled that team together.
35:07
And that also gave me some breathing space, gave me some
35:11
air to also focus on my own recovery.
35:16
Like I lost I think almost 50% of my hair during that period.
35:21
I it was falling out like hands, handfuls at a time.
35:26
Like every time I washed it I would have like a handful of
35:28
hair. That's not, that's not exactly
35:32
normal. No, no, not even for men, by the
35:34
way. No, no.
35:38
And I, I was in the Nile, right? I was so in the Nile about the
35:41
whole situation and I remember I like when I was already out of
35:45
it. I went to my GP and then I had a
35:49
conversation with they had like a psychologist attached to the.
35:55
To the practitioner. Yeah, exactly.
35:57
So I had a conversation with her and I was like, yeah, I think I
36:01
came really close to a burnout because this happened.
36:04
And then that happened. And then this happened to my
36:06
hair. And she starts laughing and she
36:11
goes, oh, sweetie, you think you came really close to a burnout?
36:15
Do you have any idea the amounts of stress your body must have
36:21
been on or under for for that to happen to your hair?
36:25
Like just start saying you burned out.
36:29
How did that conversation make you feel?
36:32
Good. It was very validating.
36:35
I think for the longest time I also couldn't talk about this
36:38
period like I it was incomplete, sort of suppressing all of the
36:43
the stress and the pain that I felt.
36:45
And I also felt because I never stopped working, that I didn't
36:49
like that I wasn't entitled to say that I burned out.
36:52
Yeah, you weren't really sick. Yeah, exactly right.
36:59
Because otherwise you would have been sick at home.
37:01
Yeah. And having someone acknowledge
37:04
that, well, actually maybe you should just start admitting that
37:09
this was really like rock bottom.
37:12
And the fact that you worked through that maybe says
37:18
something about you, but doesn't say anything about the fact
37:22
whether you burned out or not. So what did did it teach you
37:26
about yourself? That there's a word that I like
37:31
in English, Bounce back ability. I have a lot of bounce back
37:35
ability. Yeah, resilience.
37:38
Yeah, resilience, but also I think the most important lesson,
37:44
because I already knew that, right, growing up with for the
37:47
listeners, I grew up with a dad with cancer.
37:49
Like my dad passed away when I was 2524 after like 1213 years
37:55
of of yeah, tension and hospitals and whatnot.
38:00
So that resilience that sort of you have to keep going.
38:03
Yeah, that is sort of ingrained in in my personality so strongly
38:10
from just growing up in that situation.
38:14
So I already knew that I had that.
38:16
What I didn't know is that I have boundaries.
38:19
And I think that is. And that's why I also look back
38:22
on this period with a sense of positivity.
38:25
I learned that I have boundaries.
38:27
Before that I thought I was limitless, right?
38:30
Like I could do anything and no ask was too much and I would
38:37
just suck it up and keep going because that was how I was
38:41
raised and learning. Like oh you really actually
38:44
physically have a boundary here and even though you are mentally
38:48
strong enough to completely ignore that and push through,
38:52
this is what happens to you physically.
38:54
I lost a lot of weight, I lost a lot of hair, etcetera.
38:57
It looks horrible. You need to start listening to
39:02
you more seriously. So I've come a lot more gracious
39:05
towards myself and through that I think also to others.
39:08
Yeah. So what does being gracious to
39:12
yourself then mean? What did you change in terms of
39:16
maybe work ethic or maybe other things you do to quote, UN
39:24
quote, treat yourself? Are there special things that
39:28
you do to keep yourself sane? Oh, absolutely.
39:32
Yeah, there is traveling. So, so for the longest time I
39:41
just worked, worked, work, work worked.
39:42
And I didn't really take that like I have still leftover PTO
39:49
from years, right. So I have made a renewed
39:54
agreement with myself to to take more vacations.
39:58
So actually at the end of this year, I'll be off to Asia for
40:00
two months. I'll be working for some of that
40:03
time from Asia remotely, but also I'll be enjoying my life.
40:09
That's a really big part. I listen to my body.
40:15
So there are like you're not 100% productive every day.
40:20
Especially when you have ADHD, like it absent flows but that's
40:24
normal for everyone. You cannot always be sharp.
40:30
So I have accepted that there are days when I am super
40:34
productive and I may even work like 10-11 hours on such a day
40:39
and just like totally crush it. And at the same time, there are
40:44
days where I need to take a nap after lunch because I'm
40:49
exhausted. Yeah.
40:50
And I just do that. Or I I just have a less
40:54
productive day and I just accept that.
40:58
How does your environment respond to that?
41:01
Because I you're in literally in a man's world where dope, let's
41:07
say the hormone levels are sort of stable.
41:11
They they do fluctuate but they're pretty stable and it's
41:14
only 1 hormone, whereas for you it's a different ball game and
41:21
sometimes you do indeed need a nap in the afternoon.
41:26
Is that something you can actually fit in that?
41:29
Is accepted, yeah. But I also have the the luxury
41:33
of being able to plan my own day, right?
41:36
So I have a lot of trust from my organization that comes from
41:41
delivering results again and again, right?
41:43
That no, no one's checking the clock on me.
41:50
But also I have had a conversation with my, with my
41:52
manager, like my Fridays, I try, it doesn't, doesn't always
41:56
happen every Friday. Sometimes I have to have
41:58
meetings, but I try to have my Fridays free so I can read a
42:03
book And that that's of course in a book that's related to, to
42:06
work. But I will sit in a Cafe for
42:10
three hours, get the book and just read.
42:16
And that's like my, my downtime or my, my, my, my slow time.
42:22
I'm still working on self development then.
42:25
But my manager knows that and he, he accepts that.
42:28
He encourages it because I think every, like most people around
42:32
me worry that I work too much. OK.
42:37
So they are they are always quite happy to hear that I have
42:41
moments of. Of downtime as well.
42:44
Yeah, yeah. That you're actually human.
42:48
Yes exactly. I've also stopped or try.
42:53
Sometimes I still do it and then afterwards.
42:54
I think you're setting a bad example here.
42:57
Like I've stopped sending messages after work hours to
43:00
people or stopped responding to emails after work hours because
43:03
it sends a message message to other people that they should
43:06
like always be on sometimes don't forget it.
43:12
Like I'm not perfect, but I try to do that and I go to the gym a
43:18
lot. Like, I think that is for me,
43:22
the the thing that's keeping me sane is exercising.
43:28
Yeah, yeah. There's no such thing as a good
43:31
workout to keep your mind or get it clean up your mind.
43:37
Yeah, I do that with France and with we talked just before we
43:41
started, we talked about this. We've hit so high intensity
43:46
workouts, but. Yeah, yeah.
43:49
For me, it's, it's weightlifting, but it's, it's
43:52
just, I don't know, it's, it's a really good stress relief.
43:55
And about the hormones, yeah, it's absolutely that impacts you
44:01
as a woman, right. I don't mind talking about that
44:03
openly there. There are a couple of days in
44:06
the month and I think my partner experiences that more than than
44:10
work. But where I just I have brain
44:13
fog. I am emotional.
44:16
I don't necessarily get angry, but I get super like anything
44:19
will make me cry. I will.
44:21
What was it last time I was watching some YouTube, I was
44:28
diary of CEO, but I talk about like the impact of AI and how
44:33
we're going to have mass unemployment within 10 years
44:35
from now. And I started becoming, we were
44:40
talking, I started becoming emotional and we just look at
44:44
each other and I go, I think I'm about to get my period.
44:48
And he's like, I didn't want to say it, but I thought the same
44:50
thing because last month, last month it was Palestina and now
44:53
it's this. So yeah, it does impact you.
44:59
And of course, like, I'll be 40 in one month.
45:04
Time flies. And yeah, then you hit a whole
45:08
new world of, of scary hormonal stuff as a woman right there.
45:14
The perimenopause, the menopause is.
45:18
That something you read into. Yes, yeah.
45:23
And I find it, I find it quite scary and I make light of it
45:29
like the most like what I say about it is like, I have ADHD.
45:34
I already have brain fog like quite often.
45:37
I don't want to know what my brain is like when I get like
45:42
the perimenopausal brain fogs like, well, I still have a
45:45
brain. So it's, it's, it's scary.
45:49
And yeah, it's just one of those things as a woman where there is
45:52
not a lot of good help, supports out there.
45:57
No, not yet. Thankfully, I'm part of a of a,
45:59
of a network of women that dive into these things and talk about
46:04
hormone replacement therapy, et cetera.
46:07
So I'm definitely reading, reading up on this.
46:10
Yeah. Yeah, but it's not, it's not
46:12
like the hormone replacement therapy is the Holy Grail.
46:17
No, there's, there's different ways to experience Perry
46:21
menopause for different women and, and, and for you with ADHD.
46:26
It's it's also totally unknown, unchartered territory in terms
46:32
of healthcare. So which, which is something
46:36
that worries me a lot because there's many women who get
46:41
diagnosed with ADHD at a later stage.
46:44
How was it with you, by the way? I was 19.
46:48
OK. So that's, let's say quite
46:50
early, early on relative. OK.
46:54
So let's switch to your current job because you're now Head of
47:01
Product Portfolio Management at Mendex.
47:07
What what, what do you do? And let's let's start there.
47:11
And I know you, you thought you said before that you are only a
47:15
few months into this role and you're shaping the role, but
47:18
what is it shaping up to as we speak?
47:22
Yeah. So what I'm currently doing is
47:26
standardizing or formalizing the process of how we make
47:29
investment decisions at Mendex. And that could be organic or
47:34
inorganic growth. Organic, meaning we build it
47:38
ourselves to our R&D department, build to capability.
47:41
Inorganic, we partner with an existing company or we look into
47:45
a merchant acquisition strategy. Of course, we, we already had
47:51
all kinds of processes to to to make decisions, right.
47:55
It's not like for the past 20 years Menix has been making
47:58
decisions based on gut feelings, but to really standardize that
48:04
process and put guardrails in place and also bring because the
48:11
R&D department and the corporate development department as you
48:15
will didn't really follow the same process yet they a bit
48:22
disconnected. So to bring them into a similar
48:25
process where we one look at investment decisions, the big
48:30
bets, right, what's the long term impact of this, but also
48:36
approaching it much more from across departmental alignment
48:39
perspective. So really getting that formal
48:41
buy in from our go to market organization, from our marketing
48:46
organization, from our finance organization and to really have
48:50
that formalized, that is a new thing that I'm introducing.
48:53
OK. And as a part of that as well,
48:57
portfolio performance reviews. So of course we look at data, of
49:01
course we look at like how certain capabilities are
49:05
performing, how they're being adopted or if they're driving
49:09
revenue or new logos etcetera. But again a formalized process
49:15
where we create dashboards where we can really look at this as a
49:21
holistic view again from our own portfolios and Mendix build
49:24
stuff and the inorganic piece that is new.
49:28
So that's what I'm creating right now in collaboration with
49:31
with our data sciences team and our finance team and also to be
49:36
able to use that in investment decisions.
49:38
So if we come from a hyper growth time, right, So I think
49:45
the past, I don't know, maybe the whole 20 years that Mendex
49:49
existed, it was always the, the sky is the limit, right?
49:53
We were a a hyper scale up. So if a new capability needed to
49:57
be built, we just created a new team.
50:01
You added headcounts to the payroll and you started building
50:05
that. And at some point you reach a
50:08
level of maturity in an organization where that is no
50:14
longer, well, it's not, it's not that it's not an option, but
50:16
it's not the default, right? You need to also start looking
50:20
differently. So having that portfolio
50:23
performance data is also going to help drive those discussions.
50:27
So if we want to make an investment here, are there
50:30
things in our platform that are such, I don't know, I, I used to
50:36
Boston Matrix, right, cash cows, dogs, stars, etcetera, that is
50:41
such a cash cow that we can keep it going with minimal
50:43
maintenance and we can put that team somewhere else for the time
50:45
being? Or is there something that is so
50:49
underperforming and it's just really not getting the added
50:51
option? And should we just maybe have
50:52
the difficult conversation with each other that we will stop
50:55
investing in this and move that investment, those resources to
50:59
this new opportunity? Yeah.
51:03
So if I. Hear you correctly, it's it's
51:06
it's also not only reviewing how do they perform, but also taking
51:11
the action on it. OK.
51:13
What are we going to do with it and do we a need to do
51:16
something, stop doing something or invest in something new to
51:22
replace? It invest more, right?
51:24
Like it would also be that you that you build a capability and
51:28
you thought like within one year it's going to yield X percentage
51:32
of adoption, whatever. One year later you look at it
51:36
and you go, well, it's not quite there.
51:40
That's a moment to have a conversation with each other
51:42
like, OK, So what are we going to do about this?
51:43
Are we going to give it more time?
51:45
With. Like the are we going to go on
51:47
the same bath and just give it more time?
51:49
Are we going to invest more? Because we, we still think that
51:53
there is like a real opportunity here, but it just needs that
51:57
extra push or do we need to say, and that happens, right?
52:01
That happens in, in like any industry, but especially in
52:04
software. Sometimes you just build
52:06
something but you think the market wanted it and it turns
52:09
out they don't. How, how does AI play into this?
52:14
Because you you've been in tech long enough to see AI come up
52:19
for for a bit more than just the the the what everyone knows with
52:23
tech GPT and and close. How does AI help you do this?
52:30
Does it at all? Not yet, but I'm actually doing
52:35
a course, an AI course at the moment.
52:39
Ain't more business people to see if what I can learn there to
52:45
make AI work for me in this in this process.
52:53
Of course, I use AI like every other person for a lot of
52:57
productivity tasks. If I need to send out a briefing
53:01
for a for a big meeting, whatever.
53:03
Like AI is my best friend. Yeah, and I use it as a Spartan
53:07
partner to test theories. But I still have those same
53:11
conversations with my peers and my manager as well, right?
53:14
It's just that first conversation maybe I have with
53:16
AI. Are those conversations
53:18
different in in terms of content?
53:23
Sorry. Are those conversations
53:25
different in terms of content between having the conversation
53:29
with AI and having a conversation with a human?
53:32
Yes. How?
53:37
Because AI cannot bring the mandate's history and context.
53:42
So AI could suggest like, hey, you could try this approach that
53:49
in theory could sound really well, but we may have already
53:53
tried something similar in the past and there may be reasons
53:57
why that doesn't work at Mendex. So that that context, although I
54:03
have to say that now with, with Copilot connected to everything
54:07
that I do, that's really powerful.
54:09
Like I can literally ask Copilot now, like give me a summary of
54:15
everything I discussed with my executive stakeholders about
54:18
this topic over the past weeks, etcetera.
54:20
And it's so context aware and it's really starting to pull
54:23
that together. So that's a really helpful tool.
54:27
But again, it only knows what has been shared in writing or in
54:30
transcripts of meetings. And that whole, yeah, some of
54:36
our executives has have been at Menix like 10/12/15 years.
54:41
Yeah, I'd say it doesn't take watching hat there's a lot of
54:45
knowledge and and and that that prompts me to my the question I
54:50
still had how difficult is to is it because you're developing
54:55
something new, something where I would say by default even it's
55:01
really important to understand also the context in which
55:05
decisions in the past have been taken.
55:10
Generally, my experience is that those decisions are not fully
55:14
documented. Part of them are in in terms of
55:17
formalized meeting minutes, etcetera, but most of them are
55:22
sort of implicit. How difficult is it to fill in
55:26
the blanks? Immensely.
55:30
And there's also a very big human aspect of people not
55:35
necessarily appreciating if you go digging around in old
55:40
decisions, especially if that could mean that the conclusion
55:44
is that maybe we should have made a different decision.
55:46
Yeah, they're they're hobbies, Yeah.
55:48
Yeah, yeah. So I have fully accepted that
55:53
within this role, not everyone is going to like me.
55:56
This is a massive, massive change management like
56:00
trajectory project where people will have to adopt A new way of
56:05
working. There will be a higher level of
56:07
accountability that's like no one's hobby except mine.
56:15
And it will force people to work differently and it will also
56:18
force some difficult conversations here and there.
56:21
And I, I fully expect to not like, not, not everyone is
56:26
always going to be grateful that I'm doing that.
56:30
But for me, the, the bigger picture is our company's success
56:33
and, and doing the, the right things.
56:35
And sometimes you need to have difficult conversations to do
56:37
the right things. But for now, to answer your
56:40
question, I'm not really looking back.
56:42
I'm mostly focusing on looking forward.
56:45
So with any new decisions that we make, we follow this process.
56:50
And as we start getting a better view of how our our portfolio is
56:54
performing and when we start having those conversations
56:56
around, oh, we need to prove resources from somewhere, what's
57:00
that going to be, then maybe we need to bring that historical
57:04
context in. Yeah.
57:06
OK, so for for a moment, you're you're basically powering your
57:11
way through it moving forward instead of opening up all those
57:17
old wounds and decisions that some people might have actually
57:21
never agreed with because they were.
57:26
It's also not relative that much.
57:28
I think I mean, at some point we're going to have a
57:30
conversation about that a certain capability might not be
57:33
performing to the to the level that we wanted to, right.
57:37
Does it really matter like what how the decision was made five
57:42
years ago to build this capability?
57:46
Does it really matter that much what the hopes and dreams for
57:49
this capability back then were? Yes, of course, if you want to
57:52
like decide if you're going to discontinue something or not or
57:56
change the the path that you're taking with something that that
58:00
is important. But I am confident that any
58:03
decision that we have taken over the past 20 years has always
58:07
been with the best intentions and with the best data at that
58:09
point. So with with the knowledge of
58:12
that moment, the best decisions were made.
58:14
But in hindsight, yeah, hindsight is 2020, you may come
58:16
to a different realization. Hindsight is always really easy.
58:21
Yeah, yeah, of course. Because then you have all the
58:24
data and then it's, it's, it's, yeah.
58:28
So keeping it out of a, out of a definitely not a blame game, but
58:33
also not a an individual like not making about the product
58:39
manager or not making it about whoever made that decision.
58:41
Sometimes something just doesn't land, even though all our data
58:44
at the time suggested that it would.
58:46
That would be something really big.
58:48
Yeah. Sometimes we're just wrong and
58:51
that happens. Or sometimes history overtakes
58:54
you. Yeah.
58:56
Or something like AI comes along right and and it just like
59:01
upends everything, yeah. So for women listening, if if,
59:06
if they're in a similar situation, how can they is, is
59:10
this some sort of also, again, going back to the PP
59:15
Longstalking way of working what what playbook can they take from
59:20
this? For what exactly?
59:22
For how to drive their career. Or in the world for for for
59:27
managing this type of changes. One thing I heard you say is
59:32
don't look too much at the past. At at some point you will have
59:37
to. But maybe for for the time
59:39
being, look at at going forward how to shape the future, not
59:45
reshape the past. Yeah, yeah.
59:47
So I think especially with with change projects, right, you want
59:52
like digital transformation or like this is more business
59:55
transformation, you want to have early successes and you want
1:00:00
this to start from a place of positivity.
1:00:04
If you want to get people on board right, they need to
1:00:06
believe in why you are doing something, so the value behind
1:00:12
it and you want to get people excited.
1:00:14
So people don't get excited about being pointed at like
1:00:18
things that went wrong in the past.
1:00:19
People get excited about how with this new process, we got
1:00:23
funds to like build this new capability and everyone
1:00:27
supported it and, and because of that, it got adopted way better.
1:00:32
So focus on achieving short term wins that first of all, people
1:00:41
will start believing what you're doing.
1:00:43
Like you as a individual contributor or as a manager, it
1:00:46
doesn't matter. But you as a person in this job,
1:00:49
they will start believing in, in you, but mostly they start
1:00:53
believing in the process. And it might even become fun for
1:00:59
them, although that might be wishful thinking in my case, I
1:01:01
don't know. I, I, I do hope that, but a lot
1:01:05
of people are excited about it. A lot of people are excited
1:01:07
about it because they have been like, well, wanting something
1:01:12
like this for a long time. And I don't know why it never
1:01:16
happened. If, if it was voiced or if it
1:01:19
wasn't voiced and people just didn't act on it.
1:01:21
And I just sort of maneuvered myself into this gap that I saw
1:01:28
and pretty much like that first conversation I had with
1:01:31
Matthais, right? Like, or actually the second
1:01:32
conversation with Matthais, I think you need this.
1:01:36
This is what I can bring. Let me fix it.
1:01:40
And that's how this started as well because our SUPRND got a
1:01:45
request from our CEO to start doing portfolio management, to
1:01:49
bring up that portfolio overview of performance.
1:01:52
And I was like, I can help you with that.
1:01:55
Would you like me to help you with that?
1:01:57
And then I asked my manager as well, would you be OK with me
1:01:59
helping him with that? And they will, yeah, sure do it.
1:02:03
And I just took it on and I started collaborating with
1:02:05
people and really driving their project.
1:02:07
And that's how I, like, ended up in this role because I had a
1:02:10
conversation with my manager after a time and this.
1:02:11
And I think we need to have a chat because my job title says
1:02:14
operations, but I don't do operations.
1:02:16
This is what I do. I think we need to acknowledge
1:02:19
that. But yeah, small steps get people
1:02:25
excited. Go for the the easy wins at
1:02:30
first, right? Don't try to boil the ocean.
1:02:33
Pick, pick a low hanging fruit, something that you go like, oh,
1:02:35
this can be like really smooth through the process.
1:02:38
We'll get a positive outcome without too much friction.
1:02:42
People can get used to the process by that.
1:02:46
And it also is a positive experience and maybe not the
1:02:50
biggest impacts, but it will be a positive experience.
1:02:53
And then the next time you pick a little bit of a.
1:02:56
More difficult thingy and then so.
1:02:59
So you build your way gradually up also in terms of complexity.
1:03:04
Yes, yeah. And that gives people the chance
1:03:06
to also build a bit of a muscle for this, right, For them to
1:03:09
gradually adopt this. Yeah, I think that's really
1:03:13
powerful. Start with the easy stuff, the
1:03:15
low hanging fruits. It's, it's something that is
1:03:19
always said, but hardly ever done, but because we also like
1:03:25
to do big bangs. Hey, so, So what is the, the
1:03:30
importance? How important is communication
1:03:33
about what you do and, and communication about your
1:03:37
successes? So telling the story about, hey,
1:03:39
this is what I did, this is how it ended up.
1:03:42
This is what we can do with it. How important is that for to to
1:03:48
make the change effectively? Massively, I think people under
1:03:53
communicate, myself included, I should probably even be
1:03:56
communicating more than than what I do.
1:03:59
I also have a tendency to sort of withdraw into my little
1:04:03
cocoon of thinking and then once I think it's good enough, I come
1:04:06
out. But yeah, like I acknowledge
1:04:11
that I could do a better job of communicating, but it's it's
1:04:13
massively important. One thing that I got from Doctor
1:04:20
Cara Antoine from Cap Gemini that I have started using is I
1:04:25
write a monthly executive memo to all my executive stakeholders
1:04:31
highlighting what I've been doing the past month, whom I
1:04:34
collaborated with. So from across departmental
1:04:37
collaboration, like these are the projects that we're running.
1:04:40
This is what's ongoing. This is where I need some input
1:04:43
from you or this is what I would like you to action, but to to
1:04:48
make sure that I have a a monthly and they never respond
1:04:53
to it, which is fine, but I know they read it.
1:04:58
And that gives me a really easy way to a keep them in the loop
1:05:02
of of what we're doing. But it also makes me feasible.
1:05:08
Yeah, and and also shows that you're taking accountability.
1:05:14
Yeah, yeah, because I give myself deadlines and I
1:05:17
communicate back also if if we make the deadline or not, for
1:05:22
example. And I think a lot of people,
1:05:27
maybe women especially, but I think people in general struggle
1:05:31
with being visible, especially in Dutch culture.
1:05:34
I think we are raised so much of that.
1:05:36
We need to be humble. Yeah, like it's the the head
1:05:41
above the the the most over my health.
1:05:45
Thing, yeah, Hulk, Obama, Farmer, Phil, Vince, all the
1:05:49
like, all the the sayings are there to just be conformist and
1:05:55
normal and not like brag or I don't think it's even bragging.
1:06:02
It's not bragging. Like you're literally just
1:06:03
saying what you did. Yeah, but we, we see that as
1:06:08
bragging. Somehow we, we feel that that is
1:06:09
bragging. But being visible has been the
1:06:15
biggest catalyst for my career. I cannot emphasize enough the
1:06:20
importance of of being visible in our organization.
1:06:25
Sounds like a great place to close and to move to my last two
1:06:30
questions, Simone, I really, really, really, really enjoyed
1:06:34
this conversation. It's, it's bit different from
1:06:37
what I scripted, but yeah, I, I think this was really a lot of
1:06:43
fun. So with, with Fint Coach dot AI,
1:06:47
I'm building a tool for female founders to, let's say, bridge
1:06:55
the gap between them and investors to help them get more
1:06:59
and better funding. From your perspective, what is
1:07:05
one important ingredient for this app that is necessary to
1:07:11
make it a really big success and to also help women without
1:07:17
replicating biases? Yeah, I think that's the big
1:07:20
challenge with AI, right? The the inherent bias that is
1:07:26
already present in AI because it's predominantly built by men
1:07:35
using data that predominantly features men.
1:07:40
Yeah, and was generated by men. Yes, exactly, and I am.
1:07:49
I'm currently listening to a a podcast of breaking down
1:07:53
patriarchy. It's really interesting because
1:07:55
it's really like a historical view into the whole creation of
1:07:57
patriarchy without like it being super negative towards men.
1:08:01
Just like the historical facts of how things got to be where
1:08:04
they are. And if there isn't data to
1:08:13
represent females, that represents the female successes
1:08:16
that have been there, right? If that data, because it wasn't,
1:08:20
there was no writing about it or people were like not credited
1:08:24
the way they should have been. Like all of that data is still
1:08:27
influencing everything that AI is learning from.
1:08:32
So for me, that is the, I think the biggest challenge with with
1:08:35
with AI. And that is in, in wherever you
1:08:38
use it, right? The same with AI applications or
1:08:41
talent acquisition. The bias part.
1:08:44
And I don't have an answer for how to fix it except for
1:08:46
involving more women in training models and actively feeding it
1:08:52
with success stories from female founders.
1:08:57
Yeah. That would be a good start.
1:09:00
Yeah. But I'm really excited that
1:09:03
you're doing this. Yeah.
1:09:04
Yeah, I was about to say, fortunately there's what is it,
1:09:08
130 something episodes with success stories, which is
1:09:13
essentially also why I'm doing this podcast.
1:09:16
So, yeah, and thank you for doing that.
1:09:19
I think it's, it's really great to have a platform like this for
1:09:25
for women to have a voice and also for honest conversations,
1:09:28
right? I think our conversation too, I
1:09:29
really enjoyed it as well. I did not expect to be talking
1:09:34
about perimenopause today, but we did and I think it's really
1:09:37
important that we did. Yeah, yeah, I and and I think so
1:09:41
too. So thanks a lot, Simona Mink,
1:09:45
for this conversation. If people would like to learn
1:09:48
more about you, about the work you're doing in appendix and
1:09:52
connect with you, where would you like to send them?
1:09:56
They can look me up on LinkedIn, so Simona Inc on on LinkedIn.
1:10:00
They should be able to find me there.
1:10:04
I am currently building my own website, sosimonainc.com.
1:10:07
Probably by the time this episode goes live, my website
1:10:10
will be live as well. So in Asia, you have a lot of
1:10:14
time to. Finish.
1:10:16
Exactly. Yes, exactly.
1:10:19
And yeah, also an open invite to anyone.
1:10:23
I do keynotes on, if I, if I may shamelessly pitch myself for a
1:10:27
second, I do keynotes on unlimited growth mindset on
1:10:31
pivoting your career, on sliving, like despite or maybe
1:10:35
because of, of being neurodivergent and, and through
1:10:38
the, the setbacks that you, that everyone faces in their life,
1:10:42
like how you can use that to your advantage or at least not
1:10:47
let it define you. And that is the weakness.
1:10:50
So yeah, if if anyone is interested in in learning more
1:10:53
about me then please send them my way.
1:10:56
Cool. And we'll include those things
1:10:59
in the show notes. And yeah, so if you need a
1:11:01
keynote speaker who's inspiring, you've just had a flavour.
1:11:05
If you need more flavour, you can listen to Journeys of
1:11:07
Empowerment with Simona, which is also a very great way to get
1:11:14
her to know her a bit more personally, I would say.
1:11:20
So Simone Mink, thank once again, thank you very much.
1:11:23
And listeners, listeners, thank you very much for listening.
1:11:26
And until the next episode, as always, keep being awesome.
1:11:34
Well, that's it for episode 133 of Women Disrupting Tech titled
1:11:39
Building a tech career on agency, agility and bounce back
1:11:43
ability with Simone Mink. Thank you for listening.
1:11:48
If you've ever thought that you need to write background to
1:11:50
break into tech, I hope Simona Stories showed you otherwise.
1:11:55
Curiosity and self advocacy will take you further than the
1:11:59
perfect credentials ever will. And that brings me to you.
1:12:04
What was your peeping moment in this conversation?
1:12:06
Or which of the takeaways hit home with you?
1:12:10
I'd love to hear from you in the comments on Spotify, Apple
1:12:14
Podcasts, or YouTube. Or simply send me a message on
1:12:17
LinkedIn. If you want to connect with
1:12:19
Simone directly, you can find her on LinkedIn and on her
1:12:23
website. And all the links are in the
1:12:25
show notes at Women Disrupting Tech dot blog.
1:12:28
Just click the link in the caption.
1:12:31
And if this conversation resonated with you, here's how
1:12:34
you can help other women find it.
1:12:36
Take a moment to rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple
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Podcasts, or YouTube. And if you haven't already, hit
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subscribe so you don't ever miss another episode.
1:12:47
Once again, thank you for listening.
1:12:49
I wish you a happy, healthy, and prosperous 2026.
1:12:54
And until the next episode, as always, keep being awesome.