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Holy & Human · The Brave Becoming

• Shaniqua: Hey, y'all. Thank you so much for coming to our inaugural episode of the Brave Becoming podcast. Yay! Spear fingers, spear fingers. My name is Saniqua Risher, and my fabulous co host is Hey T. Tiana: Tiana Madden. Hey Shaniqua: Thank you all so much for joining us. So, welcome to the Brave Becoming. this is a space where we wrestle the hard questions out loud. Talk about what it means to be both holy and human and choose grace over perfection while we are still becoming. How many of you all know on this journey toward in life, we are still becoming who we are supposed to be? we don't have it figured out out. Neither T nor I have it figured all out. So we are not here to figure it all out and to give you all the solutions. But what we are here to do is to talk about possible solutions, what we've learned on the journey, invited, get invite our guests to tell you what they've learned on the journey to help you come to your own solutions. We are not here to perform, we're not handing out neat church answers. Both of us have backgrounds in the church, but that's not the purpose of this. We're here to tell the truth about walking with God while we are still being very, very open, as real as it can get. So this is the grain Tiana: Yeah, so we know. Shaniqua: for coming and thank you guys so much for joining us. Tiana: I'm so glad you said that as real, very real, because that leads us into our very first topic, which is being holy and human. Because let's be completely honest, being human is so messy. And sometimes being holy seems like it's impossible. Like, like she said, we don't have all the answers. We don't have it all figured out, but we are here to be open and also honest. So, like, what do you do when you feel 100% human, but not holy at all? So that's what we're gonna dive into today. Shaniqua: before we do that, y'all, we, y'all, I say y'all because I'm from Texas. It is a part of my vernacular. Don't play with me. So, y'all, before we dive deep into our topic for today, we decided that we wanted to start off every conversation with a question. And so this questionnaire we're going to ask is going to actually help you get to know us for this for for for today's podcast, but then also our guests in the future. And so the signature question that we're gonna ask each other right now, and again, our guess in the future is going to be this. So y'all ready? So, T, when did you know that God was real for yourself? Not through your parents, not through church, but for you. Tiana: Ooh, that's a loaded question. Because I feel like when you're on a journey with God, there are so many moments where you find out that He is real. so I didn't grow up in a church, but at 18 years old, I was invited to church and I was filled with the spirit. And so they said, Come on up here to this altar and and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. And so I did, had no idea what I was doing, but I did. And I knew after that I needed this book called a Bible. So I didn't know where to buy one from. And I was at the City Trends. And they had a collection of Bibles at City Trends. The cloth Shaniqua: City trans the closest one city trans. Tiana: the clothing store City Trends. I'm just in there shopping for, you know, trying to get my little fit together. And here I see Bibles. And that mo that's one of the moments for me where it's like God will meet you where you are. It does not matter if he's after you, if he has a plan for you, if he wants you to know him fully, he'll meet you where you are. He met me in that city trans and I bought my first Shaniqua: yeah. Tiana: King James Bible. Shaniqua: Shout out to the buyer and City Trends. Who would have thought that, you know, they thought they were buying clothes, but no, they were opening the door to salvation. Tiana: For salvation. Didn't know how to read it. Still don't. Shaniqua: I love that. I love that. I love that. Tiana: But that was the first the first time for me where I knew that God was real and that God wanted to know me and He wanted me to know him. Shaniqua: shopping. In the mall. Was it in the mall or was it 'cause CD Tiana: Yes, sharpen. Shaniqua: transfer normally in the mall was it freestanding? It was free. Look at you. Look at you. Next to a clothes rack. Tiana: It was freestanding. It was like a little shopping center. And I had never seen Bibles in there before. Shaniqua: that though. I love that. Okay, so I have to, I have to, I had to, I have to interject this because this is one of the things that we didn't talk about when we were first when we first were doing our intros. T and I actually don't know each other. So we met Tiana: We don't Shaniqua: via an Instagram post that I saw her post. I put slid in her DMs like, hey, let's talk about Jesus. She wants to talk about Jesus together on a podcast. So Every story and every testimony that you hear about T, we are all hearing it together for the very first time and vice Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: versa. So I I didn't know that about you. we literally just came together to tape this podcast and and everything is gonna be a revelation for both of us. So yeah, that's great. Tiana: Yes, absolutely. Shaniqua: Very good. Tiana: So now I want to ask you the same question. So what was your first moment where you knew that God was real? Shaniqua: So what made me remember to to even give that caveat that we don't know each other's because I didn't grow up in the church. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: I, you know, I remember doing maybe a couple of Easter baskets, Easter Sundays, as a child, but I literally did not grow up in the church. I came to when I went to college was when I first started going to church fairly regularly, but not necessarily. consistently. I remember freshman year, maybe sophomore year, I went more regularly because my college friend, if we were gonna ride in her car, we had to go to church on Sundays. so right, right. She was like, Tiana: I love that. Shaniqua: we can go to the grocery store, we can go to the parties, we doing all this, but y'all getting up and coming to church if y'all ride. And so we would Tiana: Amen. Shaniqua: we would do that. But it wasn't until after college actually. And I think the first time that I knew God was real was my calling experience. And for those of you all who don't know, I am a licensed minister. I'm a preacher. and so I think my calling experience when I was in a hotel room in Metary, Louisiana, I had just graduated from college. I was working in Metary, my first job out of college. I was away from home, I was away from anyone that I knew. And I just had an encounter with God. And and and I actually had an encounter with God in that hotel room. I met people in the hotel restaurant. I met someone on the plane prior to when I was doing training before I was placed in Metary for my assignment. It was just like a series of consecutive events that took place and the culmination of that was my calling experience. And maybe one time in the future I'll give you all the story about that. But that was the very first time. That I truly knew beyond a single doubt that God was for real. and it just so happened to be not too long after I was baptized. it didn't I'm I'm I think I remember that correctly. I know it was within, I think it was a few months before I was baptized, or it was right after I was baptized. No, no, I'm sorry. It actually was before I was baptized. And so Yeah, that's when I knew God was real for myself. So that's when afterwards I was like, I need to go get baptized and and truly know him. But that was my experience. Tiana: Yeah. I got I have another experience but that happened right after I was baptized, but I'll save that one for a future show. It's a little it's a little deeper. Shaniqua: Okay. I can't wait. Now r now remember it 'cause you know, we gonna we gotta remember these things. Tiana: I know. But it it's a little it's a little deeper and a little bit more serious. So we we're gonna say it. We're gonna say Shaniqua: Well then, well, Tiana: it that one. Shaniqua: how did how well let me ask this question is how did City Trans or this experience that you haven't talked about, how did it encounter the way that you see God now and even define holy? Tiana: Well, city trends again is like God would just meet you anywhere. my biggest thing for God is that he sees me. Shaniqua: Mm. Tiana: He is you know, Hagar gave him his first name, El Rohi, in the Bible. And just to know that God sees me is really huge for me. So no matter what I go through, no matter hard thing I go through, God is gonna make sure he sends me a little nudge or a little feeling to let me know that he sees me. Shaniqua: I love that. And look at you dropping one of God's names, Elrohi. I love that. I love that. Tiana: Yes. Shaniqua: Okay. I love that. Okay. So with God meeting us right where we are within our humanity, that actually sets stuff up for where we're going within this conversation of what does it even mean to be holy and human? So you Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: wanna you wanna dive deep and unpack this? Tiana: Yes, yes. I think I think we should first define like what is Shaniqua: Okay. Tiana: holy and what is human. Shaniqua: Okay. Okay. Well go ahead and get started. Tell me what what you do consider holy? Tiana: Okay. So holy is set apart and very distinct. I didn't hear you. Shaniqua: You still in my answers, by the way. I said you still in my answers, by the way. Well, I mean it is the definition, so go ahead. Tiana: I'm sorry. We we we can expound on it. We can expound on it. So holy is really just living in God's special standards, right? Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: And if I had to give a visual, a biblical reference, so when God told the Israelites not to make markings on their bodies, like the Shaniqua: Mm. Tiana: other tribes, because they had to be set apart. So that would Shaniqua: Hmm. Tiana: be a visual of like special standards and and I don't wanna say rules, but special things that God asked for, for us to be holy and to mimic who he is. Shaniqua: Girl And that's I got a big tat on my back. That I waited till I was Tiana: And I got look, I got tattoos there with tattoos there with. Shaniqua: So was I was already a preacher when I got this. I was already called. And want another one. But that's the holy that's the human part that we're gonna talk. Okay, yeah, yeah. Tiana: Now we will now that is Old Testament. That is Old Testament. Okay. Make sure we Shaniqua: Yes, yes it is. Yes, yes. Tiana: say that. Shaniqua: That is old testament scriptures and teaching. We are covered by the blood. We are in grace Tiana: You Shaniqua: right now with New Testament. Amen. Tiana: Amen. Shaniqua: Okay, that was a great visual though. That was that was great. That was a good example. That was a good example. Tiana: Mm-hmm. What's your definition of holy? Shaniqua: I the definition of holy being set apart. you know, in in Leviticus, You know, God says that be holy because I am holy. And Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: and and he called the Israelites and and and and Paul reiterated it as well. I can't remember what book in the New Testament, but he called us to be a reflection of him. We were created in his image. and so being created in his image, being a reflection of him means that his holiness, we should aspire to. to be a reflection of his holiness as well. And that means Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: to be set apart because there is nothing like God but God. and so being called, being set apart, recognizing that we are holy. So yeah, I would say mine is this is the same definition. Tiana: Yeah. Okay. All right. Well what about being human? Shaniqua: Girl, being human is being human. Tiana: It's a Messy. Shaniqua: It's so messy. It's so but you know what being human is who we are. Like since the very beginning, Adam and Eve, baby it's some that was some mess. That was some drama. The Bible is full of drama. I tell people all the time, but maybe the Bible, the Bible is the best soap opera ever. These are real people with real jacked up lives and situations. And so that's what being human is. It is being real, it is being It's being disobedient. It's being submissive, submitted, excuse me, not submissive. It's it's being joy. It's having joy. It's experiencing pain. It's suffering. Like human is all of that. It is a biological thing. It is a physical thing. it's a spiritual thing. It's it's it's a mental and emotional thing. Like being human is all of that. And it's it's us. But at its core, like you said, being human is messy. It is being messy. So that's that's my opinion on it. What's yours? Tiana: all of that, plus very imperfect but worth it. Shaniqua: Mm. I like Tiana: So although although we're so messy and we can be disobedient and stubborn and wayward and moody and emotional, God still saw fit for us to be worth it. Worth it enough for him to wrap himself up in flesh and come and have the same experience. I think that is huge. Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And not and worth it enough to not only have the same experience, but worth it enough to get up on a cross Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: and to die for us. So yeah, yeah. It was it was I I love that. I love that. Oofs. I don't know what this is called. I was gonna say spear fingers. I don't Tiana: Blue sprinkle, blue sprinkle. Yes. Shaniqua: know if that I'll say, oops, spear fingers. clock it. No, I don't want to do clock it. I wanna do like everybody else. Tiana: they do they do clock it now. Clock it. yeah. Okay, we'll do this. Shaniqua: They're gonna be like, y'all are fools and I'll be like, And is Tiana: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Shaniqua: Okay, okay, okay. So Why do you think that we struggle so much right now with being holy and the the the being holy while we are human? Why do you think we struggle so much with that? Or is it a struggle? It's a struggle for me. So I'm gonna make that assumption for everybody that's listening to this. But you go ahead and tell me if you believe it's a struggle or not. Tiana: Absolutely. Absolutely. Because God's standard is not the world's standards. And we have to live in the world. So we have to see the things. And even if we aren't a part of the things, sometimes we're in the same vicinity. And then it's like, well, God, they over there doing that, but you say I can't do that. And it's just like this this pool. Do I Shaniqua: Mm. Tiana: do what they do or do I continue to follow God? Shaniqua: Mm, mmm, mmm, mmm, mmm. So what do you have do you have a do you have a real life example of struggle where for you you have that that tension between being holy and human? Tiana: Absolutely. I mean, I just went through a divorce. So the whole Shaniqua: Okay. Tiana: the holy way would be to handle it God's way. But then there's Shaniqua: What do you think that is? 'Cause you know, d w well that's a whole nother conversation if divorce is biblical or not. But you know, divorce is biblical. So that's what I'm saying. So Tiana: It is. Yes. Shaniqua: what is God's way when it comes to this? Tiana: Well well, God's way of handling the emotions Shaniqua: Mm, okay. Tiana: of divorce and having to forgive and you know, I'm human, you know. Yeah, I can let God handle that, but I, you know, I wanna defend myself. I Shaniqua: Babe, you want to run up on somebody? Tiana: I wanna snap a little bit. Shaniqua: I get you, child. I get ya. I get ya. I run up. Tiana: Ha ha Shaniqua: Who you think you're talking to? I'm sorry. Somebody don't see this and be like, what? Right. What they talk about. So it was a struggle for you to walk out the forgiveness side. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: especially I I through this. And then what I heard you also say was not only was it a struggle for you to walk off the forgiveness side, but it was a struggle for you to remain silent, probably with some of the attacks. Mm. With a lot of the attacks. Tiana: Mm-hmm. A lot of the attacks. Because we're human, we're emotional. You know, when you feel like you're being back into a corner, you want to defend yourself, you want to speak up for yourself. But then there are some moments where God is like, Nope, I need you to be quiet. Because that's also part of being holy. It was hard. I didn't like it. Shaniqua: that go for you. I had to go for you. It was hard, but you did it? Tiana: Somewhat. That's the Shaniqua: Somewhat. Tiana: human part. Shaniqua: Somewhat girl, girl, Tiana: Yeah. Shaniqua: that's that's that's that's a beautiful thing. I love it. The fact that you because you know death and life is in the power of the tongue. So, you know, you could have been speaking some some some some guy could have been trying to give you life in some situations, but you like my mouth is about to enter into death, not mine but his. Right, right, Tiana: Mm-hmm. Yep, my mouth is about to intervene, God. Shaniqua: right, right. Okay, okay. I like that. I like that then. And so With that now that you are post-divorce, and how long ago was the divorce, if you don't mind me asking? Tiana: Ooh, almost nine months. Shaniqua: Okay, ooh, ooh, hasn't even been a full year. Tiana: Mm mm, almost. Shaniqua: Okay, so then at this point today, right now, in this moment on the spectrum of holy and human, where do you feel that you are? Tiana: Mm-hmm. I would say I'm a little in the middle, you know. Shaniqua: Okay. Tiana: The healing, the healing is a process. It's gonna is gonna take a minute. Something like that is gonna Shaniqua: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Tiana: take a minute. but now I'm able to process my emotions and different things beyond the fact of needing to be heard. Shaniqua: Mm. Tiana: So there's a lot of processing that I do with God first before I need somebody else. to hear or help me through the process if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. So I would say Shaniqua: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Tiana: I'm I'm a little bit in the middle. You know, it's it's gonna take me a minute, honestly. But I'm making progress. Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: Okay, I gotcha. I gotcha. Okay. Thank you for sharing that. I Tiana: Yeah, welcome. Shaniqua: I for me personally, you know, it's so funny because I'm gonna give y'all an example, which is not my this is a entryway, a lead into probably where I struggle with. I remember a couple of weeks ago I was hanging out. I actually had a picnic with some friends. And a friend of mine mentioned that her her stepdaughter, when she told her I was a preacher, she was in ministry and preacher, she was like, in ministry where preacher where? And I was like, I ain't never done nothing in front of her. And so my struggle has always been that I I don't fit the terror the stereotype. I don't fit the the mold of what a preacher would be. a female preacher, evangelist or minister, I don't I don't fit the mold of what a female one would be. And I won't even mention the the mold that a male one would be because they already don't think that a female should be. So I don't fit that. And so one of my struggles with that and one of I really struggled a lot when with my calling, because even though God called me, it was a good eight, nine years Nine years before I accepted the call. so he he called me, but it was a good nine years before I accepted the call. And that was because I struggle with how I am fully and who I am. And my tension between being holy and human is I'm not a modest woman. I'm Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: not modest. I'm not modest in dress, I'm not modest in my mindset. and so I had to sit with that even earlier this year. I had to sit with that and study what does it mean to be meek? What does it mean to be modest? What does it mean to be humble? some of which I think has been distorted, Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: according to the patriarchy, some of which most definitely the Bible does teach. and so God is still transforming me. But I've I've never been a modest person. It's particularly even within my dress. I dress for me. I dress for how I want to look, how I want to feel good. you're gonna see me in a short skirt, some short shorts. You're gonna see me in something that other people may be like, my gosh, I can't believe you had that on. On Saturday, I had a dress on. and then although I had a a full covering foundation under it. so it wasn't like you were seeing any of my skin. The dress itself was see-through. and so it gave you kind of the illusion. And there was, you know, there was all of this a couple of back in December, January first. I think it was January first when I was having Tiana: the dress. Shaniqua: to get together. The dress by another pastor and his another pastor's wife, and she actually happens to be a pastor. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: and I can't I can't I remember the pastor, but I can't remember her name. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: And and it's irrelev irrelevant to that. But there was all of this uproar about that. And so I I I I understood and understand the uproar because I know people sometimes probably look at me and are like, What? I like ratchet music. I have to catch myself like, okay, I can't I can't listen listen to this because music I do believe that it can influence you as well. But there are things that it's attention for me. Tiana: Getting you're getting close to me. You getting you getting you getting close you're getting close to me with the with the ranch of music. Shaniqua: I I'm getting close, girl. I'm a head and I probably hit some other people too. I mean, I mean, right. I will say though, when what's that girl, Young Miami song that came out, spin that baby, immediately. Tiana: Yeah. Shaniqua: I heard that song the first time, and then I heard it again, Tiana: Yeah. Shaniqua: and I was like, I absolutely cannot do this. Like it was something, but it was it was literally something about that song that turned my spirit off so much. And I was Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: like, no, this is not this, there's something here that I can't, I can't deal with. It turned my spirit off so much, which was so interesting because I like music. I like rap music. I like hip hop. I like I like music. And and I'm normally able to music doesn't necessarily influence me, how I think it influences other people. like I'm a reader more so. So reading can influence my mindset and my behaviors versus music can. But Tiana: Yeah. Shaniqua: When I heard that song, I immediately knew don't touch this, like stop listening to this. And I was I cold I every time it came on, I would change it. But it was on the realms of everything. It was everywhere. Which is Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: so funny because last week I was watching Jeopardy and it was a Jeopardy question. I said, Spin that is not gonna make Jeopardy. But it was I was like, What? But that's that tension between holy and human that Tiana: Uh-huh. Shaniqua: I struggle with, and probably a lot of people do struggle with is that what What what is the line? what's the line that's right there of what's what's holy and how are you set apart where you are not looking like the world, but in but but that you are inhabiting the world. And it's it's it's it's and sometimes we have to do that self-reflection and be like, the world is too much in me. And I think Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: that that's what that song was for me. Like I absolutely Tiana: I mean Shaniqua: Didn't want to touch it or to hear is because I was like, this too much of the world that's in me. It is this is not making me feel like I'm closer to God. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: this is this feels like it's taking me away from him. And so Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: some music does that and some doesn't. But going back to the modest thing and from a dress thing, I've had to now I had I asked friends, hey, is this okay? Can I wear this? Is this for this situation? Because my lens is a little bit skewed with some things. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not all like showing my tail all and all this other stuff. I'm not doing anything like that. But for me to to to be called in in some arenas reverend Sheniqua, I'm pretty sure that, you know, people would call into question my dress. and then even just how I'm perceived. So yeah, that's my that's my that's my struggle and my my tension. Tiana: Mm. I get that. especially now that I'm working out and you know, my body is changing. Some outfits, I'm like, that's cute. Ooh, girl, you cute. Especially Shaniqua: Girl, see in your body tea. Tiana: this summer. This summer I was I was outside just a little bit. And you know, it's Shaniqua: Yeah. Tiana: not it's nothing like I'm not showing Shaniqua: Be absent. Tiana: my backside or you know, I'm not showing things, but you know, it's a little more fitting. Shorts are a little shorter. So I get Shaniqua: No will be. Tiana: that. And I know one of the things when I was on vacation, I was like, Tiana, please don't kill your witness. Like, yeah, this is cute. Yeah. Shaniqua: That's it. That baby, that checks me every time. Every Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: time. That checks me where I go. That checks me what I say. That checks me even the clothes that I wear. Like don't don't Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: ruin your witness. Like I'm very careful about even the clothes that I wear in some situations and and knowing of the people that that I'll be around. Don't ruin your witness. That my gosh. That's like right there. Like, ugh, I felt Tiana: Yes. Shaniqua: that. Tiana: That weighs heavy on me. And so it's always in the back of my mind. Like I'm like, you know, God, I don't think He minds us going out to have fun per se, to listen to music, to go to different festivals and things like that. But in the back of my mind, I'm like, if someone sees me, especially because I talk to new believers a lot, if one of them Shaniqua: Is it Tiana: sees me and I'm out here doing something I'm not supposed to be doing, how can that affect them? Like, how can that make them think of holiness? Like, will that change their definition of holiness if I'm caught doing something that kind of taints my witness a little bit? Shaniqua: So, so here here's the thing for me, because so when I first was called and I first everything, I stopped going to, so I went to UT and Texas OU weekend is a big, big, big weekend for alumni, black, black and white, black, black and whatever ethnicity. But the black alumni, we have a party. And so I will be like, I gotta stop going to this party because I will be acting up. I I I was I've never been a big drinker, but I always drink on my birthday and Texas OU weekend. So Tiana: Yeah. Shaniqua: I could go it it the entire year without drinking. My birthday would come around, drink, not drink for six more months. Birthday come around, drink. So I I had to tell myself I can't be in this environment because I had to make sure that I was okay and I wasn't gonna ruin my witness. But at the same time, There is nothing wrong if I do choose to go to some place to have fun, to celebrate a friend's birthday. And so there is that tension there with your witness, but then it's also the responsibility that I feel that I have to be able to show and help people walk this walk out that you don't have to sacrifice who you are to be transformed by God, because that transformation. happens so naturally that some of the things that you craved or that you wanted no longer appeals to you. So it happens. So there there shouldn't be judgment in the midst of someone's journey, even as a new beginner of what they're seeing. And so I want to encourage you in the midst of that, like girls still go have fun, go do what you want to do, but at the same time allow the Holy Spirit to lead you in your actions and in your behaviors while you're there. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: but it is attention. It is intention because you know, people people talk about people. Why are you even at this party? Why was this person even there? Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: we people criticize B Bishop Jakes years ago for going to a birthday party of a famous person who was now in jail. Like Tiana: Email you. Shaniqua: the the criticism is gonna always be there. And it's Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: it's such a fine line. And of course, you don't want to make anyone stumble, but You also can't take on the responsibility and that that weight in that way. I I Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: I just so I I fill you with that, but Tiana: Y no. Shaniqua: and it's a tension. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: But I think that it it can be a healthy tension. You have to make sure it doesn't become Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: too cumbersome and it doesn't become dogmatic and religious, Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: you know, that's where the the I think it's the Pharisees. That's where the Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: Pharisees came from. You know, they it became more so religious versus relationship. Tiana: Exactly. Yep. Yep. And so that's I still went outside. I still had I still had a very good time. But Shaniqua: sí, y fue. Tiana: but I like the way you explain that, like making sure that the Holy Spirit can guide your behaviors when you're in these spaces because there's gonna be a tension, right? So I like the way that you explain that. Shaniqua: Mm. Mm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Okay. Do you ever feel that in the process that as you are walking out, being holy, trying to understand your humanity and being human, do you ever feel that God has left you in the process? Tiana: Uh-huh. Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. I'm pretty sure these past few months or as you are walking post divorce and even pre divorce, with the decision with everything, I'm pretty sure. So how did how did your your holy self handle that and in in your humans regard as well? Tiana: I really had to Okay, so if we if we look at the Bible, God makes it a point to keep saying, I will never leave nor forsake you. Shaniqua: His name. Tiana: And I really had to look at the Psalms because David is a very good example of what it's like to walk in holiness and still feel like God is leaving you. To be obedient and try to walk in your purpose and your call and still feel like God, like where you at? You leaving me out here in the wilderness. All these people try to get me. So I really had us had to rely on the fact and believe that. Even though I don't feel you, God, right now, even though I can't hear you like I normally do, I know that you have not left me. Shaniqua: Mm. Tiana: If I can just, if you just need me to just sit here and be still, or you just need me to keep walking until I feel your presence again, I will do that because I know that you have not left me. It was Shaniqua: Okay. Tiana: really a matter of belief and faith. Faith when faith when you can't see them. That's what I had to rely on. Shaniqua: is that a part of the human experience then for everyone to have those moments? Tiana: I think so. Hmm. Shaniqua: Yeah, I agree. I agree. You know, I I cannot remember if it was Saint Augustine or Thomas Aquina Aquinas. There's this concept that I learned in school, Bible college. and I was taking a spiritual formation class, and there was this concept that was introduced to me called the dark night of the soul. And it's not a terminology that you would find in the Bibles particularly, but I think every believer goes through the dark night of the soul, where you are wrestling. we we see it when Jacob was renamed Tiana: Yes. Shaniqua: Israel, you know, that dark night, that wrestling with God. He was literally physically wrestling with God. But sometimes our life, our experiences, we can experience things where we are wrestling with God. And I think that that allows us or or or has opens the door for us to be able to have these conversations are of like, God, have you forgotten me? Or are you? I I don't hear you, I don't see you, I don't feel you. And I think that that's the human part of our experience. And like you said, you got to be able to have that faith. And that's where the holy part comes in, that we are set apart, that we are created in his image. And so because of that, there is that tension of recognizing that what he said he will not forsake nor for or he would not forsake nor forget us, that that we would not be forgotten is is his word. It it is actually true. But a lot of people I think struggle with faith. Not that they don't love God, but it's because they're walking through suffering and they're walking through all of these things and they're silently suffering at the same time and asking God, where are you? Where did you what what has occurred? yeah, yeah, yeah. Tiana: I I read a book by Lisa Fields. It's called When Faith Disappoints. Shaniqua: Mm. Tiana: And she's a person that she says a lot of people come to to to tell her that they're leaving the faith, right? And it's not that I I don't think they think that she was going to change their mind, but one of the things she said is that people leave the faith because of disappointment. There's a lot of disappointment that happens in the wrestle. Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So why do you Tiana: And so Shaniqua: think that is? Or not let me back that up. Why is disappointment the catalyst for leaving? Tiana: Mm. I think because disappointments are tied to our wants, not all the time what we need. And so God, I want this. I want it. I want it. And then we're wrestling for it and God is like, mm-mm. Now we're disappointed. Now it's like, you don't love me because you won't Shaniqua: Mm. Tiana: give me this thing that I want. Shaniqua: you don't love me so 'cause you won't give me. Whew. Mm, okay. I that was that was great. Tiana: Which is furthest from the truth. Furthest from the truth. God can still love you and not give you something that you want at the moment. Sometimes it's not always a no. Sometimes it's just some redirection. Sometimes it's a pivot. Sometimes it's a whole new door. Something that you didn't even expect. Shaniqua: And sometimes it is a no. Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: Sometimes it's a no, but in the midst of the no. We don't recognize that that's two things happen. Sometimes in the midst of the no, we don't recognize that that no is actually the best thing. And sometimes the know is hard to take and he gives us peace through the journey of the know. Tiana: Mm, that's important. That peace part is important. Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Cause I've I've I've had the this to struggle with that. So again, T doesn't know me. but if you go to my my Facebook profile, Lord knows I went viral last year. because I was telling my business. But as a part of my business, I'm very open with the fact that I I don't have any children and I'm very open with the fact that I I had a hysterectomy before I ever knew if I If I if I actually could have children or and there are some other things with that. But that was a that was a hard process for me, you know, grieving the life that I had not lived and and now would never live, and grieving the life that I would not even know that if I could have lived it. And so that was a part of of a no for me, in the conventional sense. But if I so desire and if I so choose, then God has also left the door open for me to be a mother in other ways. Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: But it's making the peace with, okay, not this way, but that doesn't mean, like you just said, the pivot in other ways. Tiana: Mm-hmm. How long did it take you to realize that there was a pivot? Shaniqua: So that's a you would ask that question. I believe that God showed me a vision in my twenties that I would not have children. So Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: in my twenties, I believed it. No, Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: in my twenties, I heard it. In my thirties, I denied it. In my forties, I feared it. I did everything that I could to keep my uterus in my body. Multiple surgeries, multiple trying these things, fastings, all of these things, supplements, drugs, prescribed drugs. Supplements I'm not talking about like drug drugs on the Tiana: Right. Shaniqua: street corner. But I tried all of these things. so it took decades before I accepted what God told me. Decades before. so when I finally did accept, I grieved that and I made the decision for my health to go ahead and have a hysterectomy. And I tell people now, like the my life pre and post is is so much better. My quality of life is so much better. It's so much better. But this was also, I was the woman who wanted to have five kids when I was a kid. I would always say, I'm gonna have five kids all the way in my twenties. I'm gonna have five kids. I'm gonna have five kids. I'm gonna have five kids. And I have zero. and who knows? I've always believed in adoption though. So to answer your question about the pivot, I've always been believed in adoption. I always thought that I would adopt a child though. So the pivot has always been a part of of what my story was going to be, regardless. If I had children of my body or not, I knew that I was gonna have a child a child of my of my heart. And now I sometimes wonder if I'm gonna have that. And that's probably more so for my choice. Because maybe I'm 49 and I like a lot. And I've been wondering what I'm gonna feed myself, let alone I gotta worry about being a child. But Maybe in the future, you know, I do I still believe in fostering to adopt, or maybe doing an older child because I do still have so much love to give. And I have the my outpouring of love is not just confined to a child. That's Tiana: Right. Shaniqua: one thing that I've always known and I've always operated and moved that way. So Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: going back to the to the topic at hand is is that was part of my pivot, is that I made peace with the no, but I think how I had lived my life. so much before then where God was there with me, he kept me, I think that that made the peace easier. And so my humanness met my holiness, met his holiness, and there was peace. Tiana: Mm. I love that. And I like that you said you don't just have love to give to a child, you have it to give to everyone. that's that's good to hear for any any person who is, Shaniqua: Yeah. Tiana: you know, walking on that same journey. Like you have a lot of love to give to everybody, right? To everybody. Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: Yeah. Everybody. And it doesn't just have to be a mini person, a mini person that's that look like you or from you. don't don't confine. And I think, you know, parent, you are a parent, you're a Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: mother, but there's so many different ways that we can express love, so many different ways that we can give love. so many different ways that we can receive love. And if you just wanna do it in one way and bottle it up, you are denying yourself some experiences and you are Perhaps even creating some grief for yourself. Tiana: Mm-hmm. That's a very good way to look at that. And so you also you also talked about acceptance. Do you think acceptance is a holy or human process or can it be both or how do you think that flows? Shaniqua: I think it's both. I think it's both because I think that the underlying how can I put this? I think that the foundation of holy is acceptance because it's you, you, you, you, you are, you're not only because we go back to the definition so set apart, but we are creating his image. We are holy because he is holy. And so the foundation of that is a relationship between God. And so the more you trust him, the more you begin to accept your life. The more you accept the no's, the closed doors. the valleys because you realize that he hasn't forsaken you. You're not alone with those things. So the acceptance of those moments, those hard moments, the suffering moments, become easier. I think the human part of that is that the fact that we are human and so we are all going to struggle with accepting something. Because like you just said, you know, you got You didn't give me this, so therefore you didn't love you don't love me. So that's a very human response, you know, to be in our emotions that way, and to feel that way. So I think it's both the struggle and the tension of acceptance, but I think the foundation of holiness is acceptance. One of the Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: foundations. Tiana: Mm. I like that. Shaniqua: How has this been a part of you becoming who you are? This journey of walking, of being holy and human. How has this been a part of becoming who you are? Tiana: I think so many times we can believe that we have to dismiss being human in order to become who it is that God calls us to be. Not realizing that holy and human work together to transform us. Shaniqua: Mm. Tiana: Right? There are things that your holiness can call out about you being human. And then there are some things you can see being human that pulls you closer to holiness. So I don't think it's like a pick and choose, like you either gonna be holy or human. I think they both can work together on your journey to become. Shaniqua: Do you think the church teaches that? Tiana: I don't think so. I give the example of emotions, right? Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: Like, I know the Bible says, you know, do not go to bed angry, things like that, but anger is still a real thing. So, like, Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: what am I supposed to do with the anger? Am I just supposed to shame it or shun it away and not feel it at all? There Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: are some moments where you're gonna have to sit in some anger a little bit and work through that with God in order to be transformed. Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: So I don't think the church does a good job with like letting your humanity also play into your your role to becoming. I think it's just kinda like, nope, nope, holy, holy, holy only. And it's like, but you know, I'm still human though. So that kind of where where I put this at. Shaniqua: Yeah, yeah. Where's the racingness? Yeah, where do I put this at? Where do I put this at? I Tiana: Yeah. Shaniqua: I agree with that. I agree with that. So I'm I'm so for those for the rest of this podcast today and moving forward, understand that I am very critical of the church. I am critical of the church. but I'm also one of them ones like I could talk about my family, but you can't. if you ain't in the if you ain't working with it, being imperfect with the church. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: But I definitely, I definitely believe that through the ages, that message of holiness has become bogged down in religious tradition. and it and and grace has been left out of that. Grace for the human experience, grace for each other. It's it's it's it makes it so hard when when tradition has led the way or when titles lead the way or names lead the way versus love leading the way versus grace Tiana: Yeah. Shaniqua: leading the way. so I definitely agree with you. on that. Definitely agree with you on that. In church culture, I would love to see church culture change. I will love to see that. we s in in in in the West in in America, we see so many different, you know, I the other day I said something about, you know, I no longer really want people to be calling me a follower of Christ. I want them to understand that I'm a disciple of Christ. Because especially in this social media age, we anybody can follow anybody and your haters follow you. Like Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: But are you are you emulating Christ? Are you a disciple of Christ? Because the Great Commission, you know, when he sat down, he was like, go therefore and make disciples. I want them Tiana: Mm, mm-hmm. Shaniqua: to be like me, talk like me, teach like me, love like me, be light like me, be sought like me. Like Jesus, he really was like, I want you to be a disciple, not just following me from place to place, pace to pace, you know. Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: And so that's a key thing for me. And so I wish the church I wish church culture would look more like a reflection of Christ. I wish the church will look more like a r a reflection of Christ. And there are times that I mourn that we no longer do. In Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: some ways. In some ways. Tiana: Yeah. Yeah. Because when you think about that, like the word follow, like Jesus will tell them, drop everything and follow me. But that Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: wasn't it. There was still a transformation process to become a disciple. So following So Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Yeah, you did it. Yes. Yes. Go yes. Tiana: following is just the first. That's just the first step. Shaniqua: Yeah, it's just the first step. It's just the first thing. So people like I'm a follower of Christ. And and are you transformed? Are you a disciple? Like, are you doing those other things too? Are you loving others? Yes. Tiana: Mm, mm, yes. Shaniqua: Thank you. Yes, yes. Exactly that. Exactly that. Exactly that. Okay, so how do we chase holiness without pretending our humanity isn't real? And we're gonna wrap it up here soon because I know this is going, we got to hit our time. But how do we how do we how do we become holy without the realization that hey, my humanity is real? Like I'm human. I I got feelings, I got desires, I got wants, I got needs, I got all of these things that we just, you know, right here. And but you want me to be holy and there's a conflict for that and or and or it's a perceived conflict. So how do we chase holiness? How do we choose holiness? How do we pursue holiness? Tiana: Jesus. Shaniqua: Okay. That's what Can you give me some a little bit more mail? Tiana: That's it. Jesus chase Jesus. Abide in Jesus. Search for Jesus. Shaniqua: Jesus chasing after you search for Jesus. Tiana: Because truthfully, yes, the Holy Spirit dwells within us, yes, but there is this eternal struggle between our flesh and also our spirit, right? Shaniqua: Yeah. Tiana: So I I honestly think that. Well, one of the reasons Jesus came down to be human was to get to to be an example, right? Because we Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: needed an example that we can actually do this in this flesh. But then also God makes it very apparent that his grace is sufficient for us. Because yet and still, although Jesus is the example, we are still wrestling. And some of us are wrestling hard with some hard things. And so I I think it would be boastful to just say, yeah, I'm just chasing it on my own because I'm yeah, I can do it. I can't. I can't, I need Jesus. I need I need I need you. I need Shaniqua: Jesus, I need you right now. I need you right here next to me, Jesus. Tiana: you to help me strive toward this. Shaniqua: 'Cause I don't want this I don't want the angel over here and the devil over here. I want off my shoulder. I just need Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tiana: That's a real thing. That is a real thing. Yeah. What are your thoughts on it? Shaniqua: I mean, I I I echo everything that you said, like that chasing holiness is is about chasing Christ. Like the more you, the more you read his word, the more and read it for yourself. Like it's one thing to be able to listen to a preacher talk and all of that other stuff. But sit there and chew on that word and meditate on that word and read it for yourself. The more that you do that. And you open yourself up to Christ. the more, the deeper your connection and your relationship with him would be. And so then you start to move towards holiness. And again, you lose your taste for things. You know, as you get older sometimes, you lose your taste for things. I used to like this, but I don't like this anymore. You know, our taste Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: buds change, I think, every seven years. And so as you get closer to Christ, you're going to notice that your taste buds are going to change. What you once like, you don't like anymore. The righteous songs that used to do it for you, when you hear it again, you're gonna be like, this is foul Tiana: Yeah. Shaniqua: to my spirit. This is a stench to me. I can no longer listen to this. So spin that was like one of the first songs for me, but it's gonna be several more after that because there's a stench to it now. Tiana: Yes, yeah. Shaniqua: And so I think that that that as you get closer to Jesus, you get closer to holiness. Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: And then he's gonna also teach you. How to be human. Tiana: Hmm. Shaniqua: And when I say teach you how to be human, I mean the fact that we have our own perception of what it means to be human, but so many of that is is dealing with how tradition and what we were taught and antiquated, I w not antiquated thinking, but how can I put this? misinterpreted and misapplied revelations of God, I'll put it that way. You know, some people Tiana: Yeah. Shaniqua: I think God this. Let's look at this. Let's let's let's look at this. How much of this is history? How much is this Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: tradition? How much of this is the word of God? and so yeah, I think that that's that's my answer. That's my answer. Tiana: I love how you said Jesus can teach us how to be human because Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: Jesus is the most compassionate human to ever walk this earth. Shaniqua: Yes, yes, yes, yes. In spite Yeah. Tiana: in spite of because how many people how many people can sit at the same table as a Jews and still wash your feet Shaniqua: Yes, yes, yes. Because Jesus and you know what? What with you saying that Jesus is the perfect example of holy and human. Tiana: Yeah. Shaniqua: It's a perfect example of holy and human. Yeah. Okay. Be like be like Jesus. Be like Christ. You know that Tiana: Yes. So be like Jesus. Shaniqua: old, old I'm I'm I know I'm young older than you, but the old thing, WWJ D. What would Jesus do? Be like Tiana: Yes. Yes. They need to bring those back. Shaniqua: Girl, what like cause a little wristband? Don't do this because what would Jesus do? Don't go cuss that person out. What would Jesus do? Jesus said the only reason you're not getting cussed out because he's not gonna cuss you out. What would Jesus do? Baby, Tiana: 'Cause what would Jesus do? Jesus save you today. Shaniqua: that's it right there. Jesus saved you today. we have said a lot today. Holiness, we've defined it and as being set apart and bought by Christ, humanity, humans, it is flawed, it is messy. Sometimes we feel forgotten. sometimes we go through suffering or periods where there's a dark night of the soul and we ask God, where are you? And that there is this ongoing tension of being holy and human at the same time. But if you are listening and you feel 100% human and 0% holy, I want you to hear this. You're not alone. You are not disqualified. And God is not surprised by your humanity. I want to invite you to be able to walk and have a closer relationship with him because you are going to be able to get there. He's going to draw you in. Because he's he he's always there with open arms. T is an example of that. I am an example of that. And yeah, so it's okay if you feel that you're 100% human and 0%. Holy, it's okay. Cause we've all been there. It's a spectrum. It's a spectrum. so remember that. and here's a question I want you to carry into your next week. When did I know? Or when do I want to know that God is real for me? And if you don't have the answer to that, it is okay. May your prayer be simply, God, if you're real, meet me in my real life. Tiana: That is so good. Shaniqua: Yeah. God, if you're real, meet me in my real life. Tiana: And he will, friend, so get ready. Shaniqua: He will, he will, said Tiana: So we want thank you all for joining us for this first episode of The Brave Becoming. If this resonated with you, if this hit you in a way, if you enjoyed it, if you laughed, we ask that you just share this with someone else so that they can have the same experience. And join us back here next week because we are going to dive deeper in being in between, but still trying to become. I am your co-host Tiana. Shaniqua: And I am your co-host Shanikwa. Tiana: And we will see y'all next time.