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008 - The Stockholm Syndrome Myth · Who Did What Now With Katie Charlwood

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: You're listening to an airwave media podcast. Hi, and welcome
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: back to Hooded.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: What Now the history podcast that is not your history
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: class with me? You're overly enthusiastic host Katie Charlwood, true
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: crime enthusiast and reader of books. Welcome, Welcome one and all,
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Welcome back. How is everyone's week been? So, as some
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: of you may know, I have an issue with Stockholm syndrome.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: So there's a few things that are sort of weirdly
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: in popular culture and generally accepted, as you know, generally
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: sup that somebody's chewing today, generally accepted within society, even
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: though we have not.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: Really much of a basis for it.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: It's kind of like, you know, how we see patterns
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: that aren't there because we're designed.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: Our brain is designed to see patterns.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: Babies are designed to recognize human faces, like that's that's
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: their thing.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: It just yeah.
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  Speaker 2: So I think as well that correlation does not equal
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: causation is very much a part of this. But I
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: feel strongly about this. Stockholm syndrome is a fallacy. It's
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: not real, and I believe that.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: Many of many of the very real.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: Conditions are often lumped in and swept under this Stockholm
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: syndrome umbrella, even though they either exist in their own
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: right or do not necessarily belong there, like trauma bonding, IPv, PTSD, conditioning.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: So on and so forth.
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  Speaker 2: You know, they're all different things, but for some reason,
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: they're consistently lumped onto this umbrella. Now, so I thought,
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: what I talk about today is I have already Yes,
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: surprisingly enough, I've already talked about this one tech talk,
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: but I'm going to go into greater depth and tell
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: you about the origins of Stockholm syndrome otherwise known as
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: the Okay forgive me Swedish people for my terrible pronunciations,
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: the normal Storg robbery. I'm so sorry. Oh my goodness sources.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: So y'all love my sources. So I listened to the
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: Memory Motel podcast, the Criminal podcast. The Memory Moteil podcast
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: had an interview with whatever the hostages.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: The Criminal podcast.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: Was great, and there was also a straight dot com
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: article by Christian Client for twenty nineteen.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: There was a Smithsonian article. I don't my book where
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: that was from.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: There was the Bank Drama from The New Yorker from
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: nineteen seventy five that was an interesting one, and Yean
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: Eric Olsen He also wrote a book called Stockholm syndromet
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: so Stockholm syndrome effectively, and you released that in two
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: thousand and nine, okay. And I read an article from
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: twenty thirteen.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: Called forty hours.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: Or dan dramat vid normal Storg forty years after the
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: Normal Stog robbery. I was a video called forty hours
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: and rama vid normal Storg forty years after the normal
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: Stog robbery. And I got my brother to TRANSLATEX. My
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: brother lives in Sweek. Anyway, those are my sources. Okay,
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: let's get into this. So yes, first of all, Stockholm
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: syndrome was actually named after an event that happened in Stockholm.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: I know a lot of people I didn't know that
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: a lot of people didn't know that.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: I discovered. But yeah, so on.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: So we're going to go back to the seventies. So
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: it's the twenty third of August nineteen seventy three, and
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: this Verigus Credit Banking is, you know, doing its banking stuff.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: It's in the fancy part of normal Storg, Normal Storg.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: I God, I'm going to ruin these pronunciations and in
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: walks and a masked man enters the bank pulls a
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: loaded submachine gun fires out of the ceiling and hhmm
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: disguises his voice to sound like an American person and
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: shouts in English, the party has just begun.
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  Speaker 1: So who is this criminal, you ask, Well, it is
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: none other.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: Then yan Eric Olsen, a safecracker who was on furlough
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: from prison and just didn't return because he was on
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: because he it was because he was serving a three
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: year sentence for gland larceny. Hooray, so so Olsten Olsen.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: What Olsen doesn't know is that a silent alarm has
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: been triggered and because of that, two police officers respond.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: You know, as a result of this, he ends up shooting,
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: shooting at one, heading him in the hand, and the
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: other has to sit in a chair singing a song.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: Honestly, I mean okay.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: And so he takes four people hostage and then sends
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: you know, gets everyone out the bank. What I think
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: is really funny, Like I love this little part is
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: that before he sends everyone out the bank, but from
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: obviously his four hostages, there's you know, just a dude
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: there with his wife and he's like, my wife needs
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: her medication, and so Olson goes and gets it for
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: him and gives it to him for the wife, like that's.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: I found.
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  Speaker 2: It was like it's such a juxtaposition from the man
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: who came in and just shot the place and he's like, oh,
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: but here's your medicine. Of course, have a good day now,
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: Like what okay. So, once he has his hostage secure,
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: Olsen asks for his friend Clark Olivesen to be brought there.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: He was his prison roommate where he had previously tried
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: to help escape.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: He was waiting outside in the car and dynamite had
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: been smuggled in, but ol Ofsen wasn't. He failed to
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: detonate the dynamite for whatever reason, so that that didn't work.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: But anyway this did. So he demands that all ofden.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: Gets brought there three million Swedish crowner, two guns, bill
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: up professed helmets, and a blue Ford Mustang.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: And this is for the release of the hostages.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna apologize for miss parenting names. But the four
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: hostages were Kristin and Mark, Brigeta Lundblad, Elizabeth Oldgren, and
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: the only male hostage, Svend Sastrum. So ol Ofsen was
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: a bit different different to Olsen. So Yan Eric Olsen
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: as opposed to Clark Oliveson. Clark Oliveson was more of
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: a violent criminal, like he'd done arm robberies via it was,
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: you know, his crimes tend to be a bit more violent,
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: whereas Olsen was, you.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: Know, a safegrecker.
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: So they bring all Ofson in and he's to be
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: used as you know, a communication link with the police negotiators,
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: one of whom is psychologists. So this psychiatrist, Niles Beerot
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: beserot Rot, I don't know how to pronounce it. He
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: was the he was the psychiatrist that was actually leading
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: the police respond But we're gonna but we're gonna get
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: back to him.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: We're gonna get back to him.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: So yan Er Golson, he's in the bank, he's got
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: olive Sin, he's got his four hostages.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: And so this siege lasts.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: Over six days and this becomes basically this huge blockbuster
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: media event. Like the Swedish people had never seen anything
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: like it, the police had never dealt with anything like it,
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: and for many parts of the world, this is something
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: they had never seen. The thing is with the police
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: is like I'm fairly certain that the police and mister
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: berger Rot there had no training in hosted negotiations, like
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: initially they actually misidentify Jan Argallsen.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: They think they found his younger brother, and they send
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: in this.
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  Speaker 2: Teenage boy to negotiate, accompanied by the psychotist Nil's measure Rot,
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: only to have Olsen shoot at him and Olsen and
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: all of a sudden they are agitated, clearly, and what
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: they did was so Clark Clark Olivesen. He you know,
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: he says to the hostages, listen, you know, effectively, Yan's
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: not gonna hurt you. This isn't his thing. He's just
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: they've just brought this random dude in. Don't worry about it.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: You're gonna be okay. And one of the hostages actually
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: said about it later that it's not that she felt safe,
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: but she believed but she believed him, and that he
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: had more consideration for her safety than this.
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  Speaker 1: Man who brought in this random.
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  Speaker 2: Teenager, this child into a dangerous hostage situation. So Kristin
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: and Mark, she asks to speak to Bizierod and he
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  Speaker 2: straight up refuses to talk to her, Like he goes
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  Speaker 2: in to do a negotiation and refuses to speak to
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: the hostages which are there, Olson and oll Ofsen.
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  Speaker 1: They are barricaded.
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  Speaker 2: They're barricaded in the inner main vault, which is where
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: they've kept the hostages, and they're negotiating, and they negotiators
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: agree that they can have a car to escape, but
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: they won't allow them to take the hostages with them
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  Speaker 2: if they try to leave. And this is where the
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: standoff actually starts, and the police bring in a phone
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: so the hostages and their captors they can communicate with
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  Speaker 2: the outside world. Brigita Lundblad when she can't with your family,
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: you know, they tell her, you know, try again, don't
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: give up. We'll get through to you. Don't worry, like,
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: you know, keep trying and us with Oldgren. She complains
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: of claustrophobia. So Olsen, you know it basically attaches a
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: thirty foot robe to her and you know, let's sort
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  Speaker 2: of like leave the vault and walk around because she's
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: claustrophobic and.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: Chris and m Mark has bad dreams. She's shivering.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: The only male hostage spensa storm, says we could says
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: that you know, the Olsen was like.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: Really benevolent and that he treated them really really well.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: So by day two, the hostages and the captors are
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: on a first name basis. And at this point they're
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: getting like, you know, getting really antsy with the police
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: and the negotiators and everything that's kind of happening there
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: because considering everything so far that's happened, they're being treated
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: pretty well, you know, four hostages, so basically, you know,
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: nothing is happening. People are freaking out and they're like, okay,
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: you know, and at this point it's starting to get
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: so it's on all the newspapers, it's everywhere, it's on
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: the TV, and so people start contacting the police headquarters
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: and they're like, you know how we can end the
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: standoff and they're like, we can have a religious concert
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: by the Salvation Army Band.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: We can send in.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: A swarm of angry bees, not the bees, Like what
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: who would? Okay, I love it. It makes me laugh
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: so much anyway.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: So so basically, the the hostages.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: Start to think that the government is just playing with
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: their lives because they're not really doing anything. So there's
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: basically a live radio interview happens from the bank and
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: Kristin Nmark just gets mad. She's like, you know, the
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: government and the police are playing with their lives and
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: they don't even want to talk to me direct quote,
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: who is the one who will die if anything happens.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: So they felt that I was just felt that like
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: their likelihood of survival was just getting smaller and smaller,
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: like the longer this was going on. So what she
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: does is she's like, Okay, I'm gonna sort this out
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: because I love this.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: I love it.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: Like she's a hostage and she's like, I'm a sort this.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: She calls the Prime Minister of Sweden, all of Palm,
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: and she literally begs him to let her and another
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: hostage leave the bank with their captors. She's like, I
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: trust them. They haven't hurt us, they've been quite nice,
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: but I'm really afraid that the police will attack us
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: and we will die.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: But the Prime Minister Palm.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: Just straight up refuses and says, no, they're not going
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: to give in to the demands of crimical criminal. They're
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: not going to give in to the demands of criminals. Also, additionally, furthermore,
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Palm said that she couldn't get out the bank and
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: that she would have to be happy and to find
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: some solace that she died at her post, to which
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: she responds, I don't want to be a dead hero
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: and At this point, the Prime Minister, you know, he's like,
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: you know, the elections are coming up, and the King
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: Gustaff the sixth is like very close to death and
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: he's like.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: So. Then on the twenty.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: Eighth of August, after six and a half days, basically
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: over one hundred and thirty hours, the police drill a
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: hole into the vault, take a photo, which is the
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: one if you've seen Stockholm syndrome, that's generally the photo.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: They use, and they pump tear gas into the vault.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: And you know what's funny is that Clerk Olson, Clerk
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: Olilson actually grabbed on the hostages, pointed a gun at
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: them and said if you you know, if you gas us,
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: I will shoot the hostages. And the police did it anyway. Yeah,
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: So there's tear gas in the vault and Yan Eric
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: Olson and Clark Olivesen, they you know, they surrender and
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: the police are like, the hostages have to come out first,
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: and then all four hostages are like, nope, ah, they're
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: going to go first.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: Because you'll just gun them down. You shoot them if
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: you go out, we're going to follow.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: So so they're in the doorway of the vault, the
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: hostages and the captors are like, they hug, they kiss,
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: they shake hands, and the police grabbed they you know,
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: they grab the two guys and two of the people
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: hostages are crying.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: They're like, don't hurt them. They didn't harm us. And
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: so basically the.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: Police are parading, you know, down the street with the
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: captors and and Nmark is just madder at this point,
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: and she's like, mm no. So she's told to lie
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: in the stretcher and she's like, I walked in here
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: six and a half days ago, I'm walking out. But
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: they make her go in the stretcher anyway, and and
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: as she's wheeled away, she shouts, Clark, I will see
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: you again.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: Effectively, the police they're like, this is weird. The police
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: are like, hold the phone, What the fuck is this?
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: What is going on? And they're like they find it
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: very strange that these.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: You know, that the hostages and the captors are jovial
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: and pleasant one another. They can't understand this connection they have.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: The public don't understand it. The police don't understand it,
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: and to the point that they actually investigate Kristin Emmerk
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: to see if she plotted the robbery with Olson. And
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: olivesen so and because of all this, you know, confusion
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: that was being pushed around and pummeled at everybody.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: Was with Ogan.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: She says, you know, she's speaking to attack psychias, and
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: she's like, is there something wrong with me?
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: Why do want I hate them?
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: The trial happens, and and so again in mark Is,
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: you know, Kristen is criticizing the police and she singles
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: out this measure up to it again and in response,
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: and yet again without speaking to her, he dismisses her
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: comments as.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: The product of the syndrome that.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: He pulls out of his arse normal Storg syndrome, which
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: obviously gets changed to Stockholm syndrome, because you know one
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: it is easier to say, and who doesn't love alliteration.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: He states that the fear that she felt towards the
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: police was irrational and it was caused by the emotional
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: or sexual attachment she had with her captors. And this
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: gets this blows up because they're like the press or
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: all the press and the media, they're like already suspicious,
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: like I said before, and they think it's weird that
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: she's not as traumatized as they want her to be.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: At one point, a journalist says it's hard to admit
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: that she's like fresh and alert, because apparently having clarity
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: is proof that someone is sick, is suffering from some
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: form of mental illness and.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: Attraction and date toxic attraction.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: So she gets interviewed later on, and she goes and
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: they're you know, they're asked, you know, explain yourself, and
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: she's like, yeah, I was afraid of the police. Why
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: is that strange? Why is it strange that I'm afraid?
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: You know of people who are in parks, on roofs,
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: behind curt corners. You know, they're in armored vests, they're
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: wearing helmets, they have weapons, and they are ready to shoot.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: Why is it strange that I'm afraid of that? So
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: both okay, So the aftermath of the robbery, both Olson
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: and Oliveson, they're charged, they're convicted, and so Clark Oliveson
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: claims that, you know, he hadn't helped Olsen, he'd only
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: tried to save the Sasages by keeping the situation calm,
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: and the Olivesen basically when he actually gets out of jail,
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: like he meets Kristin Enmark and their families become friends,
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: and then he goes back to life Quame but Olsen
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: So Olsen is sentenced to ten years in prison and
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: he receives like.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: Many many.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: Letters from women who found him attractive, and he ends
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: up getting engaged to a woman who is like like
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: who was not one of the former hostages, which has
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: been like rumored. He gets married and he moves to Thailand.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: But yeah, so after he's released, he's like alleged that
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: he commits more crimes, financial crimes, and he turns himself
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: in to the police in two thousand and six and
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: they're like.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: No, no, so yeah Olsen.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he moves to Thailand with his wife who and
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: his son, and then moves back to Sweden in twenty thirteen.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: So like when they were in Thailand they ran a supermarket.
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: And then when he goes back to Sweden, he goes
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: to he ends up having like a garage, like a
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: repair shop for cars, and like new he's retired, and
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: he ends up like hm hm, apologizing for his actions,
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: you know, for you know, the crime and stuff, and
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: he and he does this and he actually apologizes for
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: like the whole hostage situation. So like, I don't know,
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: I kind of think that the heist was what the
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: plan was, but the hostage situation like was not an
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: intentional part of that. Like he thought, I'll go in,
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: I'll get the money, and I will fuck off, right
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: genuinely think that was that.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: So here's the thing. The normal, the normal.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: Normal syndrome, normal Storg syndrome basically, and it's it's coined
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: by himself and they kind of leave it alone.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: So basically Nile's bay Rot beasur up that arsehole with
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: the normal Storg syndrome. You know, he coins it without
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: bothering to even.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: Ask any of the hostages why.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: She's kind of like an integral part of case study.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: But that's neither here nor there. He ends up and
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: then this it doesn't it's not really huge. People don't
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: really think about it, and then like later it turns
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: into Stockholm syndrome and h effectively.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: So Stockhlm syndrome doesn't really.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: Come into wide juice until the newspaper areas Patty Hurst
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: is kidnapped, which we will talk about at a later date.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: And the thing is that Stockholm syndrome is basically this
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: cultural term and it's.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: Used casually by psychologists.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: But it has no diagnosis, and in general, mental health
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: experts do not recognize Stockholm syndrome as like.
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: An official mental health disorder.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: Stockholstrum is not recognized psychological diagnosis. There is no validated
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: diagnostic criteria for Stockholm syndrome, and that most diagnoses of
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: Stockholm syndrome are made by the media, not psychologists, not psychiatrists,
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: and that there is such and there's such little academic
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: research on it. That so when mental health spooks actually reviewed,
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: you know, the literature on Stockholm syndrome, they could not
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: agree on how to diagnose it and effectively, Stockholm syndrome
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: is a myth invented to discredit women victims of violence
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: by psychiatrists Niles Berrat with an obvious conflict of interest,
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: whose first instinct was to silence the women questioning his authority.
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: It's just oh anyway, so there we go. That is
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: the origin of Stockholm syndrome, why it's false, and yeah, okay,
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: so what did we learn today?
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: What did we learned today?
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: We learned that a petty psychiatrist is the reason that
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: the cultural term Stockholm syndrome exists, and that and that
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: sometimes authority figures the people who are meant to be
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: protecting us aren't, which is super fun. What have we
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: learned that sometimes men in authority are really fucking petty?
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: But yeah, so I would absolutely suggest but yeah, for
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: more information, I would absolutely suggest listening to any of
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: the podcasts.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: They have great interviews. Recommended pay Yes, Wow cults. I
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: love cult. They're fascinating. I am about to watch the VOW.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: I am very excited because I've heard it's awful, and
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: I am I'm gonna have a lie down because I
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: am not feeling well.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: I am very excited.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: Oh.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: I ordered a bunch of books new with me.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: I ordered a bunch of history books because I'm that person.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: I get a few history books. And yes, so I
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: ordered myself some books because I.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: Like a physical book.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: I order myself some books because I've tried ebooks and
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: I find them just a little bit more difficult to
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: deal with. Maybe it's the ADHD. I'm not I'm not
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: entirely sure, but I'm.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: Not keen on it, to be honest. So what I've
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: been doing is a couple of books.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: But then I got really mad because I've been trying
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: to get this book called Hood Feminism Notes from the
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: Women that the Movement Forgot by Mickey Kendall, and it is.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: I want, It's so bad, like this is the.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: Thing I love especially, I like I made like I
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: made a conscious decision to try and get more, to
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: read more stories from first of all women, and stories.
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: Also stories I do read.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: I don't know the last time I read a book
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: that was fiction, though, oh, I don't think I read.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: I haven't really read fiction in a while.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: I generally read nonfiction, history, true crime, stuff like that.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: So I've been trying to get hood feminism notes from
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: Moment for Box.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: I've been trying to get more to.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: Ensure that I have a wider perspective on the world.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: So you know, I'm trying to get from people of color,
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: from more women, you know, instead of continue hously buying
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: books from the straight white man, which is just because
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: you know lgbt off of LGBTQ authors. You know, trying to.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: Gain different perspectives. So that's what I am.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: Oh, so yeah, I've ordered a bunch of books and
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: I will let you know if they're good. So I've
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: been watching what I've been watching. I've been watching one Division.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: I'm very much here for one division, or I'm soled.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: I've been on TikTok. I'm like really enjoying one division.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: That's my current thing. But I have, I have, I
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: am starting. I'm about to start watching the vow, so
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: we'll see if that's any good. That's based on Nixium
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: Cultnavixium Cult I don't remember.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm gonna I will learn how to pronounce
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: it after I watch it. So yeah, you can.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: If you want to send in the m I'm on
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: Twitter who Did What Now Pd? I'm on Instagram as
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: who Did What Now Pod? I am on TikTok as.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: Who Did What Now Pod?
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: And you can always email me at who Did Whatnowpod
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: at gmail dot com if there's anything you want me
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: to cover specifically, whether it's my history in sixty seconds
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: or less on TikTok, or whether you want to something
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: you feel like should be spoken about here on the
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: podcast or on Instagram or anything like that. Absolutely one,
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: I will hear you, absolute fuckingly. But anyway, I have
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: to go clean out my house tomorrow because I had
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: to move house. I'd move back home, and with that
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: I shall bid you fare. Whill adios or revoir of
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: Waasen my friends, goodbye