Latest / The Real News Podcast / Are Cops Part of the Labor Movement or an Existential Threat to It?

Transcript

Are Cops Part of the Labor Movement or an Existential Threat to It? · The Real News Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I got work to do.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 0:06
  Speaker 3: Welcome, everyone, to Working People, a podcast about the lives, jobs,
• 0:10
  Speaker 3: dreams and struggles of the working class today. My name
• 0:14
  Speaker 3: is not Maximilian Alvarez. It is Jacob Morrison, host of
• 0:18
  Speaker 3: the Valley Labor Report, the largest union talk radio program
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: in the South.
• 0:23
  Speaker 4: And I'm Hamilton Nolan, a labor journalist based in New
• 0:26
  Speaker 4: York City.
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: Hamilton and I marched on the boss and took Max's
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: microphone so we could introduce the special episode about the
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: recent reporting trip we both went on in Las Vegas
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: and wrote about for The Real News Network and How
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: Things Work.
• 0:39
  Speaker 4: The conference that we went to took place in late,
• 0:44
  Speaker 4: hot August in the Las Vegas desert at the beautiful
• 0:48
  Speaker 4: Paris Las Vegas casino underneath a fake Eiffel Tower.
• 0:54
  Speaker 5: Here's the intro to the piece that we wrote together
• 0:56
  Speaker 5: for The Real News.
• 1:03
  Speaker 4: On a plain, blue-lit stage in a plain event space
• 1:07
  Speaker 4: at the Paris Hotel in Las Vegas, a gruff man
• 1:10
  Speaker 4: with white hair and a thin goatee is complaining about
• 1:13
  Speaker 4: Las Vegas. How it is too hot, how it is
• 1:17
  Speaker 4: too expensive, and how the hotel's convention management bureaucracy is
• 1:21
  Speaker 4: driving him nuts. You can't even move a box from
• 1:25
  Speaker 4: left to right without contacting someone to do that, he
• 1:28
  Speaker 4: barks into the microphone.
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: This will become a communal ritual by the end of
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: the week. Without fail, like some sort of morning prayer,
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: the convention begins every day with opening grumblings about the
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: convention itself.
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: We can see why. After all, the organization convening here
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: is supposed to be a strong union representing nearly 20,000
• 1:49
  Speaker 4: members around the country. Far from all the political bluster
• 1:52
  Speaker 4: about the police being defunded, six years after the earth-shaking
• 1:56
  Speaker 4: George Floyd protests swept the U.S. and public approval for
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: law enforcement plunged to a generational low, These guys have
• 2:03
  Speaker 4: never been more politically and monetarily supported than they are now.
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: But there are only about 50 people here in the
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: room with us. Only 28 delegates, 10 alternates, and some
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: wives and family members mixed in. The proceedings are pretty
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: boring and energy-less. The attendees are grumpy. And the air
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: is thick with middle-age resentment.
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: Clearly, the convention organizers and speakers were expecting something much
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: different than this. To be honest, so were we. Because
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: it's 2026, Donald Trump is president again, and this is
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: the 23rd Quadrennial Convention of the International Union of Police Associations, IUPAA,
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: which represents tens of thousands of cops in departments from
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: coast to coast.
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: The convention was billed as the premier gathering for law
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: enforcement leadership, an event that you don't want to miss.
• 2:57
  Speaker 4: But it's absolutely dead here. Even the speakers and attendees
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: don't want to be here. In fact, they won't shut
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: up about it.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: Man, that piece is so fire. And like anyone listening
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: to this, you guys have to go read what Jacob
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: and Hamilton wrote from Las Vegas. And, you know, thinking
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: about this, you know, police union convention that took place
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: in Las Vegas. And I, you know, I can't recommend
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: it highly enough. We've linked to it in the show
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: notes for this episode. We've linked to the additional writing
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: that Hamilton did on it for how things work. But
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: I've been dying to actually get you guys on the
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: podcast to talk about it. Now that the reporting trip
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: is over, the pieces are out, there's so much that
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: I just want to ask you guys about what it
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: was like to be there. what the vibe was, the
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: conversations that you were having that didn't make it into
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: these pieces. So we got a lot to talk about here.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: But I guess by way of like setting things up
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: and really setting the stage for folks, how the hell
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: did you guys end up at this convention? Like who
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: the hell invited you two assholes to Iupa's quadrennial convention
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: in Las Vegas?
• 4:12
  Speaker 5: I guess I'll answer that since I'm the one who
• 4:14
  Speaker 5: got the invitation. And I'm not.
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: Totally sure why, but my best guess is that, uh,
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: I got an invitation because I'm the principal officer of
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: an AFL-CIO labor council.
• 4:28
  Speaker 5: Um, I actually got.
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: Multiple invitations in the mail, like in the, in the
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: mail to my house. So Iupa knows where I live,
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: which potentially is, uh, you know, a terrifying prospect, but
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: maybe it'll be okay. I, you know, maybe I met
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: a couple of friends who will protect me in Iupa.
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: So I got invitations in the mail to Las Vegas,
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: to the Iupa convention. Um, and I say, I'm not
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: totally sure because I did ask a couple of labor
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: council presidents if they also got that invitation and they
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: said no.
• 4:54
  Speaker 5: Um, so, but I think that's probably it.
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: You know, maybe they looked you up and saw the
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: mustache and we're like, oh yeah, this guy's with us. Yes.
• 5:02
  Speaker 5: Maybe that was it.
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: Um, but so I, I got an invitation, uh, in
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: the mail and I thought it would be really funny
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: to go. And so I started, I started asking around
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: for somebody to give me the money to go, uh,
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: And I found Max. Enter Max. Stay left, baby. My
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: sugar daddy, Maximilian Alvarez. So I was able to go
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: to Vegas. I thought it would be very funny. And,
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: you know, so I thought it would be funny to go.
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: But I also wanted to do, like, You know, I
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: wanted to turn it into sort of a real piece
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: of reporting. And, you know, I've done some reporting and
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: I've done some journalism, but I'm still not super comfortable
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: with that as a label for myself. And Hamilton has
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: been in the space for a lot longer than I have.
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: He's done a lot of really serious journalism and in
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: this space specifically. And so I thought that it would
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: be made a lot better by having somebody a little
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: bit more experienced to be tag along with me.
• 6:01
  Speaker 5: So I registered with Hamilton as my guest.
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: Nobody answered. Nobody asked any questions at the registration phase.
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: And so that's how we got the invitation. We can
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: maybe talk about the when we actually showed up a
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: little bit later. But Hamilton, is there anything else that
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: you would want to add to the how did we
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: end up there?
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: No, you know, as you said, I was just along
• 6:19
  Speaker 4: for the ride on this. Jacob got the invite for
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: some reason, still unknown. Max paid the bills and I
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: just tagged along, you know, and I had I'd done
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: some reporting on Iupa, particularly in 2020 when we were
• 6:32
  Speaker 4: trying to get him kicked out of AFL-CO. And I've
• 6:34
  Speaker 4: never in my life been able to get Iupa to
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: respond to any of my emails or phone calls. So
• 6:40
  Speaker 4: the chance to attend the convention to me was was
• 6:43
  Speaker 4: very exciting. And I was excited to tag along.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: So at any point walking in there, like, I mean,
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: I don't know. Like, you guys are two, you know,
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: white guys walking in there who maybe probably feel differently
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: than I would walking in there. But, like, at any point,
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: did the sort of, like, high teenager in you kick
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: in and be like, oh, shit, these guys know who
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: we are. They're going to come for us kind of thing?
• 7:11
  Speaker 4: We both look a little bit like cops, to be fair. So.
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: Either one of us could be a cop.
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I've got the mustache. Hamilton has the build. So
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: together we make a cop.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: Well, like, you know, one of the reasons that the
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: pitch was so compelling to me, like I, we all
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: thought it was funny, weird, interesting. Like, you know, there were,
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: there was like something fateful about that invitation ending up,
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: you know, in Jacob's mailbox, just like, you know, Harry
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: Potter's Hogwarts letter, like finding him somehow. And, like, I
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: think we could all sense that. But we didn't quite
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: know what we were going to find there. But, like,
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: you guys, you know, lay out in that intro, you know,
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: you had very different expectations for the convention than what
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: you found. So, like, talk about that. Like, what were
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: you expecting and why? And then when you got there,
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: what were you seeing and how were you processing it?
• 8:09
  Speaker 4: Well, I will point out, first of all, that Jacob
• 8:12
  Speaker 4: wanted to be very clear. was very concerned about kind
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: of OPSEC while we were doing this cloak and dagger.
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: Are they going to find us out? You know, and
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: when we arrived to register for the convention, we said,
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: here we are, we gave them our names and they
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: were like, we can't find you. So they just typed
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: up and typed our name and printed it out and
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: gave us a badge. So there was no security at all. And,
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: you know, my, my initial impressions at least, and you
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: can say yours too, Jacob, but you know, I've been
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: to a fair number of union conventions and, And this
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: was probably the most low energy union convention that I've
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: ever been to in my life, which was a surprise
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: to me. Yes.
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: You know, on the the OPSEC thing, it's just it
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: was there was a continued sort of in curiousness about
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: like who we were, you know, at the time. Like,
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: I don't ever I don't think anybody ever asked you, Hamilton,
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: what you do for a job, which is.
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: Which is like crazy.
• 9:11
  Speaker 5: You know, I was trying.
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: To workshop his his cover story. And actually, nobody nobody
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: gave a damn at all.
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: I talked to this one guy for literally an hour
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: after the convention proceedings were over for the day. And
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: I just kept asking him questions about his job. It
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: was the local president who said in the piece that
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: they're affiliated with their labor council, but they don't really
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: do anything over political differences. I spoke to this guy
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: for an hour. He never like. was curious about me
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: at all like who is this guy who's not in
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: iupa i mentioned you know i mentioned i'm not in
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: iupa and like no further questions.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: At all i'm sure every woman listening to this is
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: saying you mean a man was like didn't give a
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: shit about anything you had to say yeah big story
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: of the year there but i guess like that's that's
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: kind of yeah like what i was getting from the
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: the the reports that you guys did for this piece
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: is like, you know, cause some of the big questions
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: you and we, and, and you guys as ambassadors for
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: the labor movement, you know, we're going in there to
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: ask is like, why are these guys in the labor movement?
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: And like, do they feel like they're part of it? Um, and,
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: and like, you know, then you add on all the
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: other politics of, of, you know, the, the, you know,
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: police state that has been ramping up, you know, especially
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: ever since the George Floyd uprisings in 2020. But like,
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: before we dig into that, um, I, I wanted to
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: kind of like, you know, just ask a little more
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: about the, the setting here and the sort of noir-ish,
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: you know, kind of presence of In this story, a
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: because you guys have to humor me and like, you know,
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: I promise that I was like, I won't turn this
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: piece too much into a fake Hunter S. Thompson piece.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: But I feel like there's something genuinely kind of overlapping
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: here with what, you know, fear and loathing in Las
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: Vegas was actually doing and observing and at the time
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: in the America that existed back then. And you guys
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: are doing the same in a very different kind of America,
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: in a very different Las Vegas where most of that
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: noir has been paved over, blown up and rebuilt and
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: consolidated under a few kind of mega owners of the strip.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: So like talk a little more about the sort of
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: setting and the proceedings of like the convention itself before
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: we dig into the kind of politics of it.
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, Fear and Loathe in Las Vegas, for
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: those of you who haven't read it, a large scene
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: in the book is them attending a cop convention while
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: high on a lot of powerful drugs. And Jacob refused
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: to take any mescaline, despite my trying to peer pressure him.
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: So we didn't have the drug part. But Vegas is
• 11:59
  Speaker 4: an extremely fucking weird setting, as anybody knows who's been
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: to the Vegas Strip. Paris, Las Vegas has a huge
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: fake hot air balloon out front and a huge fake
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: Eiffel Tower inside. There's like chandeliers hanging from the ceiling.
• 12:13
  Speaker 4: There's huge oil paintings of like Louis XIV on the
• 12:16
  Speaker 4: outside of the ballroom where we were. And then five
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: steps away is a sign leading to the strip club
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: and the next hotel and a cigar bar where middle-aged
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: guys are like sexually harassing the waitresses. So that was
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: kind of the setting that we were in. Uh, and, and,
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: you know, ironically Vegas of course is, uh, the, the
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: entire Vegas strip is unionized and the culinary union in
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: Las Vegas, one of the most powerful local unions in America.
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: So Vegas is in a very real sense, a union town.
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: And we were here for union convention. And then the
• 12:49
  Speaker 4: guys proceeded to kind of bitch about the fact that
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: the union imposed a bunch of rules in the hotel.
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: So that, that sort of came full circle for me.
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: And Jacob, let me ask, had you ever been to
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: Las Vegas before?
• 13:02
  Speaker 5: No, no, I'd never been to Las Vegas.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: All right, country boy. Like, what was it? What was
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: it like going into that for the first time?
• 13:08
  Speaker 5: It was it was definitely crazy.
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: You know, not only like, you know, grew up sort
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: of out in the county, but also very religious. And so,
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: you know, very, very different vibes. Lots of you know,
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: they call it Sin City for a reason, obviously. And
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: there's an energy in Las Vegas, obviously, you know, all
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: all of the the gambling, the drinking, the girls and
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: everything like that is like, was just so contrasted with,
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: you know, the very sort of dull, except for, except
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: for Rizzo. And I hope that Hamilton, you'll be able
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: to talk about Rizzo. But even that was kind of
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: dull a little bit, like people kind of got tired
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: of it. But the convention was just like, like there was,
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: there was one time when I got up because there
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: was a part of the convention that was like, clearly
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: not newsworthy. It was very internal stuff and just not
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: very interesting. So I left to go like get lunch,
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: I think. And I happened to be in the elevator
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: up to my room with another officer and or with
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: an officer. I'm not an officer with an officer. And
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: he and I asked him, you know, where he was going.
• 14:13
  Speaker 5: He was like, I'm going to take a nap.
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: This this is terrible. And I was like, oh, is
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: this your first convention? He said, yeah, it's awful.
• 14:20
  Speaker 5: I hate it, basically.
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: You know, and I very, very much underestimated, you know,
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: like you talked about the contracts of what we were expecting.
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: I was expecting, you A sort of not a huge convention,
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: you know, 20,000 members is not a very large international union.
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: But I expected at least 100 delegates, you know, and
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: then some alternates and some family. That's sort of what
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: I was expecting at the least. The sort of mean
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: I was expecting was maybe 200, maybe 250. And so
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: getting there, there's only 28 people who can vote on. Like,
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: that was crazy to me. So I was way overestimating
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: how many people would be there. And I was way underestimating,
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: like how big Las Vegas is, because part of my
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: plan was I'm going to go down after the convention
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: proceedings to the hotel bar and like find one of
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: these guys after the proceedings. And, you know, shoot the
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: shit with them for a few hours and get super
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: drunk and that.
• 15:17
  Speaker 5: Like I really wanted to do that.
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: And as soon as the proceedings was over and people left,
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: like they blended into the thousands of people that were
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: there and there was just no finding anybody or connecting
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: after the convention. If you do not get their phone
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: number and talk to them and make plans. And, you know,
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: there were so few people there and it was kind of,
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: you know, I don't know.
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: Jacob was envisioning like a holiday inn. And in fact,
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: the Paris Las Vegas has 3,500 rooms.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and like, you know, I, I, it's so
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: wild because I grew up, you know, with Las Vegas
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: being a big part of our lives as, as it
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: was for so many people in the Southwest, particularly Southern California. Right.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: Cause in those sort of, you know, post mob town areas,
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: days of Las Vegas in the 80s and 90s they
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: were really trying to you know and and succeeded in
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: rebranding Vegas as like the family-friendly haven of you know
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: these massive hotels the these you know big you know
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: ridiculously overdone shows and you know buffets and pools and
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: arcades it was awesome I've honestly had more fun in
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: Las Vegas with my siblings and cousins in the 90s
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: when I was a kid than I've ever had being
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: there after I was 21 and could drink. I don't
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: know what that says, but it's also like I've watched
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: Vegas change a lot. Over the years. Like, a lot,
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: a lot. Like, I've seen some of those, you know,
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: old hotels get blown up or live, you know, television
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: feeds of them getting blown up. And then, you know,
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: you go there, like, after a few years of not
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: going there and all the things you remember are gone or,
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: you know, renamed or under, you know, a new theme
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: and new ownership. There is something uniquely American that is, like, very...
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: intensely expressed in Las Vegas. And, like, again, I feel
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: like that is still the case now in the settings
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: that you guys were in. But, like, I want to
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: talk about the union and, like, what state is IUPAA in? Like,
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: what the hell do they do? And what were they...
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: doing at this convention?
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: You know, the state of Iupa, it's funny, I because
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: it was so the turnout was so low, the energy
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: was so low. I sort of felt it felt very
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: familiar to me as the member of a public sector
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: union where we have like little, you know, there's not
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: a whole lot of activity among our members and we
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: don't have very much power, which was very surprising, right?
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: Because of all the reasons that we say in the
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: introduction to the piece, the power of police has basically
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: never been better.
• 18:12
  Speaker 5: The police unions are are politically fetid.
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: And the it you know, there were they didn't even
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: have a congressperson at their convention. You know, I was
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: expecting at least one sort of right wing congressperson to
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: be there. And the highest ranking official that they got
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: was some deputy assistant undersecretary of Homeland Security, who is
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: like the liaison to local governments.
• 18:40
  Speaker 5: You know, I mean, that was sort of surprising to me.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: And the state doesn't need the police when we have
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: a police state.
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: That may be part of it, or it may or
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: it may be that Iupa, you know, I mentioned this
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: in the piece as well, that because Iupa is such
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: a small union, you know, and there are other big
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: police unions like the FOP, the PBA, that maybe this
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: union in particular and potentially because of its affiliation with
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: the AFL-CIO, you know, I'm not really sure. And I
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: wasn't able to get an interview with Sam Cabral, the
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: international president. I tried multiple times while we were on
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: the trip and wasn't able to make that happen. He
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: would have been the one to answer those questions about
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: sort of national politics within the labor movement and with
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: the administration and with other politicians. And and I really
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: hate that I wasn't able to get that interview. But
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: those are those are questions that still remain. You know,
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: is it because like the police state doesn't need the
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: police unions or is it primarily because of the the
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: way that Iupa itself as a as an entity is
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: situated in the political environment and there's like not really
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: much of a need for them when they have the
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: PBA and the FOP to be a liaison to them
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: for law enforcement.
• 19:54
  Speaker 5: I'm not sure.
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: So yeah, IUPA is a relatively small police union. The
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: Fraternal Order of Police and the Police Benevolent Association are bigger.
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: What makes IUPA interesting is they're the only police union
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: in the AFL-CIO. So they're the only police pure police
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: union that is formally aligned with, you know, what is
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: effectively the labor movement, the AFL-CO, the, the America's biggest
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: labor federation. So they're in an interesting political place. I mean,
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: the convention itself, if you, if you say, was this
• 20:25
  Speaker 4: a union convention or a cop convention, it was much
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: more a cop convention and part of a cop convention.
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: I think, you know, this is sort of maybe the
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: symbolic part of all this is like, they want to
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: go to Vegas and play golf, man. Like that's what,
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: that's why people would attend the IUPAC convention in Vegas
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: is like to go play golf. And part of the
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: reason why Sam Cabral, IUPAC president sounded so pissed off
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: every day as he was like conducting this convention is
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: I think they had so much, uh, busy work to
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: do that. He wasn't able to just let everybody go
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: out and play golf, you know, but the vendors that
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: showed up, uh, next to the convention were like cop stuff,
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: you know, uh, uh body cams you know several of
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: which were stolen on the last on the from the
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: reception at the last night of the convention which was
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: funny um but you know yeah.
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: There was a vendor for assault uh boats right yeah
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: Which is correct. The union is not going to be
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: the ones purchasing assault. And so that just that adds
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: to the right.
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: It wasn't like DSA was there in the in the
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: vendor section. I mean, it was it was stuff that
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: cops would want, you know, although they were not allowed
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: to have actual firearms in the hotel. So when they
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: auctioned off a rifle, they just had to have a
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: picture of it. And I think to deliver it later on.
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: I tried to get the rifle myself because that would
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: have been funny. But I unfortunately my rifle was not picked.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, like you can you can only commit
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: so far to the to the bit, I suppose. And like,
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: you know, like insofar as this was still a labor
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: conference and a union convention, you know, where stuff like
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: was getting done. Like, I want to talk about that. Right.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, because, you know, like there's so many big
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: questions here that we, you know, like and by we
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: I mean like people in the broader labor movement, people
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: connected to it, who support it, who have family members
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: in it, who believe in it. And just, you know,
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: kind of working people in general who believe that workers
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: banding together and fighting for our needs together, you know,
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: like is the way forward. and people like us who
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: have questions of like, what the hell kind of relationship
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: are we supposed to have to the police? You know,
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: like there's so much kind of intensity in those debates
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: online and in person that also seem to contrast so
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: much with like the setting you were in, the discussions
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: that were being had and the mentalities of the people
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: attending this conference. So like, Talk more about that. Like,
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: do they see themselves as part of the labor movement? Like,
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: do they still operate like a union?
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: Well, the most fascinating part of this conference to me,
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: you know, was getting to be in the room when
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: a police union is talking to itself, you know, presumably
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: with nobody else in the room, right? There was no
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: obvious press here or anything. So, That was actually a
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: very interesting kind of look behind the curtain because of
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: the tone that a lot of the speakers had at
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: the convention. And you saw really the qualities, I guess,
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: that people think about police but maybe don't get to
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: see so directly anymore. the defensiveness, you know, the, the
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: kind of military mindedness, the, the us against the world thing, the,
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: we're the good guys and they're the bad guys thing.
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: Like all of that was very much manifested in the
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: speakers that we had, you know, including some of the
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: speakers were, were so wacky and sort of bizarre and
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: crazy that you start to worry. Like, these are the
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: guys who are talking to the guys with guns. I mean,
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: that's not, that doesn't make me feel very good, you know? Um,
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: one of the ones that stood out to me crossing
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: over for the, for the union part is like, there
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: was a guy who spoke from a legal defense fund,
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: you know, that serves police unions and all police unions
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: can pay in to tap into the services of this
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: legal defense fund. And they will fund legal defense. If,
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: if you, as a, as a police union member do anything,
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: you know, And he was like, you know, it could
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: be easy stuff like a dead body in the back
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: of your car. Or like, you know, it could, you know,
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: basic stuff. Like you walk into the jail cell, the
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: guy's dead, you know? And next thing you.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: Know, Was it Harvey Keitel from Pulp Fiction doing this?
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: I mean, to me, it sounded awesome. I was like,
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: I would love to be in a legal defense. He
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: was like, even if you're here in Las Vegas off duty,
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: you know, if something happens and something goes down and
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: you got to like shoot a guy, I mean, We
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: will come to your defense if it was if it
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: was sort of a police action. So that was pretty
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: interesting to me.
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: And like absolutely no, you know, no sort of hemming
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: and hawing about that either. You know, that's that's the
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: thing that really kind of stuck out to me. about that,
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: you know, no. And I guess it makes sense because
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: they're talking to themselves and they don't feel like they
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: have to justify it. But there really was no attempt
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: to justify like, why? Why should you as an off
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: duty cop from Florida be able to shoot and kill
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: somebody in Las Vegas and have a Cadillac legal defense
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: for it? You know, I mean, that's just why should
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: you have that? You know, no, no attempt to justify
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: that at all. And no attempt to reckon with the
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: the way that folks who are asking for more police
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: accountability feel about the police. And, you know, the reason
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: that that they would say they don't have to be
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: even beyond the fact that this is, you know, they
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: felt like they were talking to themselves and so they
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: don't have to do that. But, you know, they cited,
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: you know, approval polls from Gallup and stuff about how the,
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: you know, something like 74 percent of Americans have some
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: or a great deal of confidence in their local police.
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: And so they don't feel like they have to, you know,
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: they feel like they have sort of won the propaganda
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: war and it's us actually who are wrong.
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: I was just going to add, you know, if you've
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: been to a lot of union conventions or you spent
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: time in union world period, you know, at any union events,
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: there's usually a lot of talk about solidarity, the basic
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: union buzzwords. And there was almost none of that at
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: this convention. And that really leapt out to me too.
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: I mean, I've never been to a union convention or
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: event of any type where almost nobody said solidarity, union,
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: we're all together, like very little of that at all.
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: Certainly no attempt to make alliances or highlight alliances that
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: they have with other unions, which do exist. And you
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: can read the piece for more of that locally. But
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: there were no other unions that were speakers there. I mean,
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: at most union conventions, you'll have other unions speaking. You know,
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think that at the letter carriers convention,
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: Sean O'Brien spoke, you know, at the UAW convention, Sarah
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: Nelson has spoke, you know, like that's a pretty common
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: thing at the AFL-CIO conventions. And in Alabama, we always
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: have we have a bunch of union speakers. We've had
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: people from the UMWA. We've had Sarah Nelson and like
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: no other unions at all. not even other cop unions.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: Well, and like, for that reason, you know, there was
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: so much in, you know, the figure of Sam Cabral,
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: Iupa president and, and the, the, the sort of, you know,
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: vibe and mentality that, that he embodied that, you know,
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: echoes the, the like, you know, steward of, of Gondor,
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: you know, like just really like having this sense of like,
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: we have no friends. We are the thin blue line
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: defending everyone from the, the darkness of, That is always
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: like ever creeping. But now the darkness is creeping from
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: within our own ranks and we're the ones like holding
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: society together. Yada, yada, yada. Like it feels like, you know,
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: so much of that was was dripping from the details
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: that you guys gave in this incredible piece.
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: But like, can I say something really quick about Cabral?
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: He gave his speech. I think it was either right
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: before or right after he was reelected president of the
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: International and. you know, not a good speaker, which is fine.
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: Lots of people aren't good speakers, but he was not
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: a good speaker. I don't think he would say he
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: was a good speaker. But he, you know, he had
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: some interesting stuff in his backstory that I really would
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: have loved to have asked him about. He said that
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: a big reason that he decided to join the union
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: was because of his dad, who was in the Meat
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: Cutters Union, which was, you know, a union that ultimately
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: became a part of the UFCW.
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: And.
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: About how inspired he was by his dad fighting for
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: people that were being bullied and how he doesn't like
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: bullies and how he, you know, and how that was
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: such an inspiration to him. And so when he got
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: on with the police force, he wanted to do that
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: for rank and file officers who were being bullied like
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: by management. And I thought like that to me was
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: basically the only time that I heard anything from Cabral
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: that sounded like, it, it, it, tracked with my theory
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: or the way that I think of unions. You know,
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: it seemed like there was a real sort of grain
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: of unionism there in Cabral that I found interesting and
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: I would have really liked to have talked to him about,
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: because it seems like his... that that sort of solidarity
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: with the common everyman, like the everyman outside of law enforcement.
• 30:08
  Speaker 5: Has really been buried.
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: And it made me think of, you know, Bill Fletcher,
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: you know, I spoke to him for this piece and
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: he talked about how in AFGE, you know, among some
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: of the law enforcement sections, particularly the federal prison guards,
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: you know, he told me, and this wasn't in the piece,
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: he told me that, you know, these guards literally every
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: single day they are surrounded by people who would kill them.
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: You know, like they would, a lot of them would
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: kill these guards at the drop of a hat. And
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: doing that and not having a community outside of this
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: law enforcement community to keep you grounded and to make
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: you realize that that is not the rest of the world.
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: Like the real world does not operate like everybody is
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: out to kill you. If you don't have a community
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: that can ground you in a reality that's outside of that,
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: it sort of breaks your brain and it, it gets
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: kind of boiled alive. And, and, and I wonder if,
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: if something like that sort of happens to Cabral, um, it,
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: it was, uh, you know, it, it was something that,
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: that I would have loved to have asked him about.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: And like, you know, in terms of what you guys
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: were able to ask, you know, other attendees and speakers about,
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: you know, like, uh, like, like we said, there, there's,
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: there's so much here that, um, you know, you guys, uh,
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: got the chance to kind of pose to these, you know,
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: union members who are part of the only cop union
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: affiliated with the AFL-CIO. And, you know, you write beautifully
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: in this piece, and I'm just going to read it,
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: where you guys say, quote, it is by no means
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: the largest police union in America, but IUPO has the
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: distinction of being the only police union that is a
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: member of the AFL-CIO. It joined the Labor Federation in 1979.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: making it a formal but uncomfortable partner to every progressive
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: labor union and every rank-and-file union member in the AFL-CIO
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: who has ever had to question why they should be
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: affiliated with a union representing the same kind of cops
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: who beat and arrest them, their union siblings, and their
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: neighbors at protests and on picket lines, end quote. So
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: when you guys talk to them about that, what do
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: they have to say?
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: Well, first of all, I'll say Sam Cabral, all three
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: of us would love to interview you, Sam Cabral. So
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: please reach out to us anytime. Open invitation. I, as
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: I mentioned, have covered IUPO a bit, you know, particularly
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: in 2020. You know, their media relations are kind of
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: interesting to me. They're very quiet. They don't, they are absolutely,
• 32:47
  Speaker 4: not only do they not do outreach very much, but,
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: you know, they rarely respond to not just me from
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: the left wing magazine, but To almost anybody, if you
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: look them up in Google News, very little news about
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: them apart from the fact that they had to go
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: bankrupt because one of their people got sued for sexual harassment.
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: But that's a different story. But when you look at
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: what Sam Cabral is on the record having done in
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: the past decade or so, when Ferguson was going on
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: and Michael Brown was killed and Richard Trumka, who was
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: the head of the AFL-CIO, tried to make some positive
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: statements about police reform. Sam Cabral sent a very angry,
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: scathing letter to the AFL-CIO rejecting the idea that, you know,
• 33:30
  Speaker 4: there was any racism in policing. Then fast forward to 2020,
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: George Floyd, once again, the AFL-CIO, Richard Trumka, tries to
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: make some supportive gestures towards Black Lives Matter. And again,
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: Sam Cabral sends an angry, scathing letter you know, saying
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: that the AFL-CIO is demonizing police and how dare you
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: do this and how dare you suggest police are racist,
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: you know? And then at this convention, a huge theme
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: of the convention was like, the crazies are trying to
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: defund police, you know, and putting us all in danger
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: and we're fighting back. And there's this horrible danger on
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: the horizon in the form of the democratic socialists who
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: are going to defund police once again. And it's like,
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: It's fictional in a sense, you know, but it's also
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: interesting kind of look into the mind state. And when
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: you talk about their PR strategy, one thing I learned
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: at this convention, which I did not know before, was
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: that IUPLA gives an award to journalists almost every year
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: at their conventions. And they've been doing so for like
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: decades now. And a lot of them are, it's sort
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: of like, you're the journalist who wrote great stuff about
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: the cops. An actual award, you know, with the plaque
• 34:42
  Speaker 4: and everything. And a lot of them were to because
• 34:46
  Speaker 4: they had a list of all of them in the brochure.
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: And a lot of them were to, you know, sites
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: like LawEnforcementNews.com or some of them were to like Fox
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: News figures, Greta Van Susteren and stuff like that, who
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: you wouldn't really be surprised by. But some of them
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: were also to, you know, Bob Schaefer from CBS News
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: and people like that who had apparently accepted this award
• 35:09
  Speaker 4: from IUPAC. And again, it's like that bunker mentality of
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: talking to the world that Jacob touched on. It's like
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: it's us and our friends, and then it's our enemies.
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: And I think that came through a lot at this
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: convention for me.
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: It was funny that this year's recipient did not come
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: to pick up her prize.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 35:28
  Speaker 5: Which was.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: Well, again, it sounds like hardly anyone came, so I
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: guess we shouldn't be surprised there.
• 35:36
  Speaker 5: That's true.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: I wanted to save this for the last 10 minutes
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: after all the heavy lifting you guys have done to
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: go there to Vegas, to be there for this convention,
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: to write about it, to go through all the editing, co-publishing,
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: all that. But we got 10 minutes here. to sort
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: of address the big question that you're, you know, the
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: feature piece leads with is like, are cops part of
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: the labor movement or are they an existential threat to it? Right.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, like I wanted to sort of ask for
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: your guys's thoughts on that, like understanding that, you know,
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: there are plenty of people, including people who listen to
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: the show, people that we have interviewed and worked with
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: who are, you know, not your typical sort of DSA defund, uh,
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: all cops are bastards, you know, kind of people. But like,
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: as listeners can hear, you know, like you guys have
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: been invested in this question Hamilton for longer than any
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: of us, you know, but it's, you know, been something
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: that you've looked at, seen, talked about, analyzed, you know,
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: for many years. So I wanted to ask like kind
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: of where you stood on that question before the convention,
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: if anything from the convention has changed your mind. And
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: I guess, like, having somehow gotten into this sad, decrepit,
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: you know, soulless convention and seeing a bit how the
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: sausage is made, what do you think the rest of
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: us on the outside who never get to see that
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: need to understand about, you know, these kinds of cops
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: and this kind of union?
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: Well, you know, I'll put my cards on the table
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: because I really do have an opinion on this that's
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: maybe stronger than than a typical journalist you might think of.
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: But in 2020, when the George Floyd protests were happening
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: and Black Lives Matter was happening, there was a national
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: movement within the labor movement to kick IUPA out of
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: the AFL-CO. I was active in that. My union, the
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: Writers Guild of America East, which is an AFL-CO member,
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: passed a resolution So that came from our entire union
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: urging the AFL-CO to kick out IUPO, which the AFL-CO
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: did not. And I also reported on the AFL-CO and IUPO. And,
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: you know, what I saw really was the AFL crazily
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: trying to sweep it under the rug, you know, really,
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: really trying to minimize it. Eventually, they sort of formed
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: a commission that came out with the report a year
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: later that they totally buried and didn't publicize. And that report,
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: in fact, rejected calls to defund police and rejected calls
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: to Kick out Iupa and the same people that, you know,
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: put out that report are still running the AFL-CO. So like,
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: you know, my belief and it's a belief that a
• 38:25
  Speaker 4: lot of other people share and have written eloquently about,
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: you know, is that it's the goals of police unions
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: are fundamentally incompatible with the solidarity that defines the labor movement.
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: You know, my personal belief is like police can have unions.
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: They are workers. They work. They have a job. They can,
• 38:44
  Speaker 4: as far as I'm concerned, have collective bargaining and bargain
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: over their wages and working conditions. But that is a
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: different proposition from them being in our labor federation and
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: being a formal part of the labor movement, because being
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: a part of labor movement demands solidarity. Solidarity is a
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: give and take. You give solidarity and you get the
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: benefit of solidarity there. And that is not something that
• 39:05
  Speaker 4: I think police are existentially capable of doing or that
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: we've ever seen police do in the history of America.
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: And everybody who says that, oh, no, no, we need
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: to keep them close and this is going to make
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: them better. It's never come true. And I think at
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: some point we have to recognize that. So I would
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: love to see this issue, you know, and thanks for
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: bringing it up, Max, but I'd love to see the
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: issue once again get elevated because the only way the
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: labor movement is going to make progress on this is
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: for a lot of people to agitate around it and
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: organize around it within your local unions and elevate that
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: up the chain.
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, when I talked to Bill Fletcher about this,
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: he has basically the same position as Nolan and And,
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: you know, I asked him if that if that position
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: was does that sort of run counter to what you
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: told me, you know, your call about the federal prison guards,
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: how if these guards aren't they don't have a community
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: outside of law enforcement that sort of grounds them in
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: the real world, then they sort of fly off the
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: handle and become crazy. Is that not an argument for
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: maintaining them as part of our labor movement and engaging
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: with them? And he said that the problem with that
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: is that, you know, within the Labor Federation, within the
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: AFL-CIO and within unions that have sections of law enforcement,
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: that that never actually happens. Potentially, he said that maybe
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: that's an argument to do it actually.
• 40:29
  Speaker 5: But in the real world, that hasn't happened.
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: You know, I mean, like Hamilton talked about, there was
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: there was this report and they said, we believe that
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: there would be more good from engaging our police affiliates
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: than isolating them.
• 40:41
  Speaker 5: And Maybe maybe that's true. And I think potentially.
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: The you know, my interviews with leaders of the Memphis
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: Police Association, maybe they speak to the value of that.
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: You know, I have a full hour up on the
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: Valley Labor Report with the vice president of the Memphis
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: Police Association. And and, you know, long story short, I
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: was able to write some in the real news and
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: talked about some in my interview. about the ways that
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: the Memphis Police Association, very much unlike other police associations,
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: has stood in solidarity with unions in Memphis, has supported
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: collective bargaining rights, not just for themselves, but for the
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: other city unions, has supported striking workers and not arrested
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: striking workers when they were called on to harass them
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: by the boss and anti-union forces. And so maybe the
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: unique history of Memphis, like maybe there's a path forward there,
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: but you can't talk about that as a path forward
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: without recognizing that even though that has been talked about
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: in other places within AFGE, within the AFL-CIO, like the
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: leaders of these federations show no appetite to actually make
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: that happen. And the leaders of the police associations, by
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: and large, show no appetite to allow that to happen
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: to them. You know, I mean, there's just no appetite
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: at the international level from IUPA and certainly not from
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: the FOP or the PBA for any sort of reform.
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: And I talked to Covington about this, the vice president
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: of the Memphis Police Association, John Covington, you know, about
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: why would you want to be sort of burdened with
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: the responsibility of responding to the homelessness crisis in this country,
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: the mental health crisis in this country? And all of
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: these like every societal ill should not be handled by
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: an armed agent of the state is sort of how
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: I feel about it. And, you know, he had his
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: response and it was basically like that these things can
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: get dangerous. And so basically we need somebody with a
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: gun who can kill somebody if it gets out of hand.
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: And even actually he actually even pushed back against having
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: social workers in addition to cop teams because he was like,
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: if we have a social worker there, then that's another
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: person that I have to protect as the one with
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: the gun. And I just I think that is that
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: is sort of part of his brain being broken and being,
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: you know, always in the world of it's us against them.
• 43:05
  Speaker 5: And everybody is out to kill me.
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: And I just I don't think that that is actually
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: the world that we live in, even when we're talking
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: about the mental health crisis and the homelessness crisis. I
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: think that by and large, most of those people are
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: not going to be violent unless violence is threatened against
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: or put against them. And that's just not really something
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: that cops seem willing to tolerate.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: Well, and like, you know, at a certain point, you know,
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: you really got to be able to see past the,
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: you know, the goodness, real or perceived, of the individual
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: people wearing badges and think about, you know, to borrow
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: Hamilton's term, the sort of existential basis of this job
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: and the sort of powers of that badge. There are...
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: certain built-in structural foundational incentives that are literally pushing those people,
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: good or not, to do the opposite of what everyone
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: else would have to do in that situation. It's like
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: arguing why business owners... all turn into Jeff Bezos wannabe
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: power-hungry monsters because they're literally incentivized to. They're rewarded for
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: being that. The state apparatus is constantly giving them benefits
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: for doing that. And like the same sort of thing
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: applies to cop unions, right? Like why would they have
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: solidarity when they are constantly being kind of enabled by
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: the state to get by without it? Um, in like, I,
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: my mind always goes to what, you know, union workers
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: and retirees in Wisconsin told me about act 10 in 2011, um,
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: When Governor Scott Walker and the Republicans during the Great
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: Recession were capitalizing on people's pain to just go all
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: out against public sector workers and unions, go after their
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: collective bargaining rights, their wages, their ability to even maintain
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: their unions. But of course, there were carve-outs for cop unions, firefighters,
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: and deputy sheriffs. Right. And that kind of pattern has
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: been repeated in so many ways around the country. So
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: it does sort of beg the question of like, why
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: would they show solidarity with us if they are always
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: like sort of incentivized not to and rewarded for it?
• 45:35
  Speaker 4: Something that is so relevant to this discussion, I think,
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: is that, you know, this this summer, 2026, the AFL-CIO's
• 45:43
  Speaker 4: convention was held in Minneapolis. They purposely held it in Minneapolis.
• 45:49
  Speaker 4: in order to celebrate the Minnesota labor movements actions in
• 45:54
  Speaker 4: opposition to ice. Right. So the, the whole kind of
• 45:57
  Speaker 4: underlying theme of the AFL-CO convention this year was we
• 46:01
  Speaker 4: are celebrating the Minnesota labor movement and what they did
• 46:03
  Speaker 4: to resist ice, particularly in Minneapolis, you know, and at
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: IUPAS convention, they have speakers up there celebrating the the
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: agreements that local unions strike to help out ICE and
• 46:17
  Speaker 4: help them in their deportation campaign. And it comes down
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: to which side are you on? Everybody in the labor
• 46:23
  Speaker 4: movement knows the song, which side are you on? And
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: I would challenge the AFL-CIO to tell me how you
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: reconcile these two points, how you believe you can have
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: a union in your federation that is celebrating the and
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: assisting ISIS deportation campaign at the same time you as
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: a federation are purportedly celebrating our resistance to that thing.
• 46:46
  Speaker 4: It doesn't work.
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: The International Union of Police Associations was the only affiliate
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: of the AFL-CIO to not attend the quadrennial convention in
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: June in Minneapolis.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: All right, gang, that's going to wrap things up for
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: us today. I want to thank our special guests, the
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: incredible labor journalists and real news contributors, Hamilton Nolan and
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: Jacob Morrison. Go follow and support Hamilton's substack, How Things Work,
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: and read his book, The Hammer. Go follow and support
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: Jacob and the Valley Labor Report. My God, we need
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: their work now more than ever. And I cannot stress
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: this enough. Go read their amazing pieces about the IUPAC
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: Convention in Las Vegas that we published on the Real
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: News website and that Hamilton published at How Things Work.
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: We've linked to both of those in the show notes
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: for this episode. And of course, I want to thank
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: you all for listening, and I want to thank you
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: guys for caring about this. We do all of this
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: work for you, but we cannot do it without you.
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: And that goes for us here at Working People and
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: The Real News, and also for Hamilton, Jacob, and every
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: other labor journalist that you support. Working People is brought
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: to you in partnership with In These Times Magazine and
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: The Real News Network. This show is produced by the
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: great Jules Taylor and is a proud member of the
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: Labor Radio Podcast Network. We'll see y'all back here next
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: time for another episode of Working People. And in the meantime,
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: go explore all the great work that we're doing at
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: The Real News, where we do grassroots reporting that lifts
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: up the voices and stories from the front lines of struggle.
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: Subscribe to our YouTube channel. Check out our great podcasts
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: like Under the Shadow and The Battle for Free Speech.
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: And connect with us on social media and get updates
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: on our reporting there. And help us do more work
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: like this by going to therealnews.com forward slash donate and
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: becoming a supporter today. I promise you guys, it really
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: makes a difference. I'm Maximilian Alvarez.
• 48:56
  Speaker 4: I'm Hamilton Nolan.
• 48:58
  Speaker 5: I'm Jacob Morrison.
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: Take care of yourselves.
• 49:00
  Speaker 5: Take care of each other.
• 49:01
  Speaker 4: Solidarity forever.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: When my face you no longer see, I live on, yes,
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: I live on. Wherever we go, we are going to
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: roll the union on. The song, I live on, yes,
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: I live on. Wherever hungry, hungry are we. Just as
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: hungry as hungry can be.
• 49:34
  Speaker 6: The song... I live on, yes, I live on. While
• 49:39
  Speaker 6: mean things are happening in this land, it's read or sung,
• 49:43
  Speaker 6: I live on, yes, I live on. Wherever the broken
• 49:47
  Speaker 6: things are happening in this land, it's read, I live on, yes,
• 49:52
  Speaker 6: I live on.
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: Wherever the videotape of me is shown, I live.
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: On, yes, I live on.
• 50:01
  Speaker 6: If I have help to make this a better world
• 50:03
  Speaker 6: to live in, I'll live on, yes, I'll live on.
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: When my body is solid and in tongues and brains,
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: I'll live on, yes, I'll live on. When my songs
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: and poems are read, I'll live on, yes, I'll live on.