Latest / Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield / Gamesmanship/Cheating New big money comp plus special Guest Sean Fitzpatrick

Transcript

Gamesmanship/Cheating New big money comp plus special Guest Sean Fitzpatrick · Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield

• 0:00
  Welcome to Rivals, John Kuhn, or so known as Mr. McGoo, and if you can hear that noise
• 0:05
  with Victor Mattfield, he's in a mine in Rustenburg, and he's a big machine going past, but
• 0:11
  welcome.
• 0:12
  If you've got over the whole argument about bomb squads and red cards yet?
• 0:15
  No, I think John's agreeing with me out at the bomb squads, probably the best thing
• 0:20
  that's happened to Rick in the last 20 years.
• 0:23
  I'm not agreeing with you, Victor.
• 0:24
  I'm not agreeing with you.
• 0:26
  JK, do you remember Mr. McGoo on television?
• 0:29
  Ricardo, leave the fashion to me.
• 0:30
  You've got a different coloured striped shirt on.
• 0:32
  I'm not going to answer your fashion questions every week.
• 0:36
  I'm going to take you shopping.
• 0:37
  It was just a comment about television.
• 0:45
  This week, there was a pretty dramatic penalty kick shootout in the URC, so did you watch
• 0:49
  the effector?
• 0:50
  What did you think of it?
• 0:51
  Yeah, it's a first for me.
• 0:55
  Yeah, it was quite exciting.
• 1:00
  Something different, something we haven't seen.
• 1:02
  I don't know how it's going to work.
• 1:03
  We'll use six different kickers, and then they actually picked three guys and three different
• 1:09
  spots and then go further.
• 1:12
  Yeah, unfortunately, shocks pulled it through.
• 1:16
  I mean, kicking six out of six under that pressure couldn't have been easy.
• 1:21
  And the funny thing for me was they had the left and the right footer.
• 1:24
  And they actually used the left footer kicker from the left and the right footer.
• 1:29
  I would thought it's the other way around, because normally that's the easier kick for
• 1:32
  the kickers.
• 1:33
  But yeah, something different.
• 1:38
  And I think the people really enjoyed it.
• 1:39
  I think they enjoyed it at inspiration driven, because they won it.
• 1:44
  Yeah, something different, and hopefully, maybe we'll see it again.
• 1:49
  Yeah, I think it's good.
• 1:50
  I think it's great.
• 1:51
  The only thing I would say is, I've only seen it once before Victor, and that was for
• 1:56
  a club final way back in the day when there was like 15 or blacks on the field.
• 2:01
  I think it was university against Ponsonby, and you had to nominate six players, which I
• 2:08
  think ended up a cup, I think there was a hooker than Ponsonby hooker ended up taking
• 2:13
  the shot.
• 2:14
  So, you know, I think, you know, we see it a lot in football, just because it draws often.
• 2:19
  But, you know, I think it's great, because there's no other alternative, really.
• 2:23
  What can you do, toss a coin?
• 2:24
  I don't think that's fair.
• 2:25
  It brings into the skills of the game.
• 2:26
  So, I mean, there's a bit of a gamemanship, too.
• 2:29
  And that's an interesting word, because when you talk about passion, some people call
• 2:33
  it a game-streaming.
• 2:34
  The chip company people call it cheating, but I don't think it really affected the game,
• 2:39
  but it's certainly got a few people I rate about going down with, you know, with Cramp
• 2:44
  in front of the kicker and stuff.
• 2:45
  Yeah, but, and again, we always talk about knowing the laws, and I think the sharks were
• 2:50
  really clever, that the young kid on the bench, that they haven't been on the field, and
• 2:56
  then probably about two minutes or minute before the game ended, they put him on and took
• 3:03
  my bimpy off, and he's also a very good kicker, and he used it, and I mean, he kicked two
• 3:09
  very difficult kicks, and especially the last one, which he had to kick to win the game,
• 3:13
  kicked it over.
• 3:14
  So, again, knowing what will happen, when, after extra time, how will it work, was very
• 3:22
  important for the sharks, and yeah, they did well to get that kid on the field.
• 3:26
  So, you referred to the cramping up of Hendrix and JK, there's been quite a bit of controversy
• 3:34
  after that.
• 3:35
  What did you think about all the controversy, Victor?
• 3:37
  Yeah, knowing Jaden, he probably thought he can put a little bit more pressure on the
• 3:45
  kicker.
• 3:46
  He did cramp, definitely, but he could probably have walked five meters further and then
• 3:52
  get it dropped out.
• 3:54
  But I think, like anyone, I wonder that pressure situation, the longer you have to wait,
• 4:00
  the longer you have to think about it, the harder it probably gets.
• 4:03
  So, probably a little bit of gamemanship, and then the little wink for the guys to take
• 4:09
  your time, come down, you will have the kick.
• 4:12
  But I mean, we talked about it, I mean, if you look at the past, some of the best captains
• 4:19
  George Cregan, John Smith, they all had that little bit of gamemanship where they try
• 4:25
  and influence a bit more pressure, maybe on the ref or the other team.
• 4:30
  And sometimes they get away with it, sometimes the ref will tell them to go back to their
• 4:35
  team and just be the captain and not trying to be the ref.
• 4:38
  But yeah, that's part of the game and that makes the game interesting.
• 4:42
  Yeah, I mean, I think for me, I'm seeing a lot more in the game.
• 4:46
  So, what I believe needs to happen is we need to understand whether World Rugby is actually
• 4:52
  going to do something about gamemanship, right?
• 4:58
  So I'm seeing a lot more, you know, you would have seen it also, Victor, you know, someone
• 5:03
  gets cleaned out in Iraq and they might hit the head and instead of falling backwards,
• 5:06
  they fall back and throw their arms, you might see a little bit of exaggeration trying
• 5:12
  to milk a penalty.
• 5:14
  So I think World Rugby needs to make some decisions on whether it is actually a real case or
• 5:20
  not a real case.
• 5:21
  Otherwise, we're going to see more of it and we're going to end up like football where
• 5:26
  I think if one thing that would annoy us and I love football, don't get me wrong, would
• 5:30
  be the faking, the rolling, trying to get appenally.
• 5:34
  So I think we now need to understand the gamemanship and where it sits in our game and what's
• 5:41
  acceptable.
• 5:42
  Because I believe if someone throws a fake and you go back and the team, you know, go
• 5:46
  slip that guy, you know, through a fake, then, you know, should they be penalised rather
• 5:52
  or should the penalty be turned around?
• 5:53
  Otherwise, it is just going to, as a competition and the tournaments become more important,
• 5:59
  more money, then we're going to see more of it.
• 6:02
  And I just think we need to make some moral decisions on whether we wanted it in our game
• 6:06
  or not.
• 6:07
  I'm pretty relaxed about the gamemanship.
• 6:09
  I'm pretty sure he had cramp and Russy sent that photo of him cramping.
• 6:14
  The gamemanship was winking, you know, and where he went down.
• 6:18
  So unless, unless Will rugby makes some decision, it'll just keep growing and be part of our
• 6:24
  game.
• 6:25
  Now I also, I hate the diving these days and I think actually all players get coached
• 6:31
  by the coaches whenever you carry the ball and these head contact, you need to go down,
• 6:35
  you need to lie, because that puts attention to the TMO to go, have a look at it again.
• 6:41
  And I hate it as well, John, I'm with you on that.
• 6:45
  But you don't want to do it.
• 6:48
  And that's a difference, I think, between diving and gamemanship and trying to influence
• 6:53
  the flow of the game or maybe trying to influence the referee, they want to take the characters
• 6:58
  out of the game.
• 6:59
  I mean, I mean, a George Gregor, he was a character because of how he won the field.
• 7:07
  Sean Fitzpatrick from New Zealand, same thing as a captain.
• 7:10
  He just had a certain way on the field where, with whatever he did, he influenced again.
• 7:17
  A bucket's brutal was the same at some stage.
• 7:21
  Maybe a little bit dirty, but I mean, he could influence stuff on the edge, but trying to
• 7:26
  get away with it.
• 7:27
  So I still think we need the character, and Jaden is one of those guys.
• 7:31
  I mean, if you name off the field, he doesn't say a word.
• 7:35
  Once he gets on the field, he's the most irritating guy who ever see if you play against
• 7:41
  him.
• 7:42
  But I mean, he tries to get under the skin of other players, he tries to influence him,
• 7:46
  put him under pressure.
• 7:48
  So I'm not sure if you want to take out that characters out of the game.
• 7:52
  Yes, we don't want diving and we don't want to become like soccer where Iran falls over
• 7:57
  when he just gets touched, and unfortunately, with the new laws, all of them are starting
• 8:02
  to get there.
• 8:04
  But that game and ship, that character's that you see on the field, I would still like
• 8:09
  to see them on the field.
• 8:11
  I mean, if you're going to take out the people that are using a bit of gamesmanship and
• 8:16
  pushing the referees and winking and carrying on, we're not going to have any halfbacks
• 8:20
  on the field whatsoever, probably no focus.
• 8:22
  So you've got to let them in.
• 8:24
  There's a lot of news that round at the moment about, is talk of a new league in rugby.
• 8:30
  I think it's called R360 where they're talking about, I think 12 professional teams, owned
• 8:36
  by high profile owners, doing a traveling circuit around the world.
• 8:41
  What do you guys think?
• 8:42
  Does the game need another breakaway competition?
• 8:45
  I think New Zealand and South Africa need it because maybe if we had that then we'd retain
• 8:51
  Richie Moonga, like, for me, it's like the cricket.
• 8:56
  At the moment, there's a few of us countries and mainly South African New Zealand.
• 9:00
  We are suffering from the global economy.
• 9:04
  So all our players are getting attracted to Japan, France and probably the UK.
• 9:09
  And so we can't retain our players.
• 9:11
  If there was a, like, you know, the IPL, the Indian league where it's a six week competition
• 9:18
  away from and we can retain all our top players, I can't see a problem with it because at
• 9:25
  the moment teams like South Africa and New Zealand, although it hasn't affected South Africa
• 9:30
  as much as us because they don't have the same play home, play for the Oblachs law.
• 9:36
  But I can see it having a space if it's going to help some teams economically.
• 9:40
  Well, I spoke to a few of the senior players in South Africa and, yeah, it was last year
• 9:48
  November.
• 9:49
  It sounded like most of the guys had signed with this league.
• 9:53
  If it happens, they would like to play it.
• 9:55
  And I think in any sport, if you look at the IPL, it changed the face of cricket.
• 10:00
  I mean, all of a sudden in South Africa, all the young kids want to play cricket because
• 10:05
  they get paid so much more than rugby players.
• 10:07
  So if guys with their close 50, 50 and all those, everyone would have played rugby.
• 10:12
  Now, because of the financial impact, the IPL has, everyone goes to cricket.
• 10:17
  Left to it, yes, there's a lot of talk about it, but again, you put more money into the
• 10:24
  sport to develop the sport as well.
• 10:26
  So I think for rugby, it will be great.
• 10:30
  I know this may be a little fight between the IRB and this breakerweight league.
• 10:36
  If the guys go play there, then they can't play international rugby.
• 10:40
  And that's one to me, don't want.
• 10:41
  We still want to see our best players playing international rugby.
• 10:47
  So yes, if they can sort that out, put more money in the game.
• 10:51
  I think for old players as well, I mean, I spoke to a guy like Joe Coles that earned almost
• 10:56
  the same amount just going to the IPL to go coach for six weeks, help the batsmen.
• 11:02
  And I mean, so for the sport, it's so good.
• 11:04
  Old players, current players, and the sport will grow.
• 11:08
  So yeah, if they can pull it off, but we don't influence our international game, then I think
• 11:15
  it will be great.
• 11:16
  I hope World Rugby has sat down and spoken to these guys.
• 11:20
  I had a guy contact me about 18 months ago.
• 11:23
  And that was the first Christian I see it as like, if we can bring more money into the
• 11:27
  game, and me, selfish as a New Zealander, if we can retain our top players, then I can't
• 11:33
  see an issue with it.
• 11:34
  But we want them playing international football full-stop.
• 11:37
  I mean, Jacob, that's why I think South Africa is using Japan, well, I mean, they don't
• 11:43
  play too many games.
• 11:44
  They go over, they play 10 games, they free share.
• 11:47
  So when they get to the spring box, they haven't overplayed, they haven't.
• 11:50
  It's not like in France or the UK, we play 30 games for your clubs.
• 11:54
  They want every ounce from that play because they're playing so well.
• 11:58
  So I think if you can get a league like this, players really get paid well.
• 12:03
  We grow the game globally.
• 12:05
  And those guys will be free share when it comes to international rugby, can be granted.
• 12:10
  New Zealand would have to let them be selected.
• 12:13
  So we need an attitude change towards that, which is discussed every year in New Zealand,
• 12:20
  especially when Richie Mawanga wins MVP and wins it to an erode for Toshiba.
• 12:25
  And that's a rough result, isn't it?
• 12:28
  It's a fantastic track, yeah, totally.
• 12:31
  Obviously, you guys are both positive about this new league, which I'm guessing means
• 12:35
  that they put big facts contracts in front of you.
• 12:37
  So you know, PR or sort of, you know what I'm saying.
• 12:41
  Not at all, Riccardo, that's a fence of.
• 12:45
  Actually, the thing is that a fence of.
• 12:47
  I think if you look at how many of our top players going to coaching, I think we miss out
• 12:56
  on some of the best coaches, because it's just not worth for the guys to stay in rugby
• 13:00
  afterwards.
• 13:01
  If you can get a league like this where coaches, everyone involved, really get paid well.
• 13:08
  I think we'll see some of the big names staying in the game, getting involved and being
• 13:14
  around it.
• 13:15
  I think, especially for old players that want to be in the game, but it's just not worth
• 13:21
  it to be in the game financially, I think we're going to be great.
• 13:25
  The really the only reason I'm in favour is because I want to see how we need to look
• 13:32
  at alternatives for retaining our players in New Zealand.
• 13:35
  We need to talk to the government about tax cuts for rugby players or artists to whatever
• 13:40
  for 10 years.
• 13:41
  We just need to look at the problem differently because we are losing too many players in
• 13:45
  their prime that are trying to look after their future and good on them, but we need to
• 13:51
  look at the problem differently, and this is an alternative for me.
• 13:55
  And we need to get money into the game so that guys can really retire after they've done
• 14:00
  playing.
• 14:01
  I think we probably, we so far behind football, we so far behind cricket now with IPR.
• 14:09
  So we need something that we can get our top players in the same amount as some of the top
• 14:14
  football and some of the top cricket players.
• 14:17
  Now I haven't been approached, aren't you?
• 14:22
  I'm way too old to be approached, I'm way too old to be approached, so now I haven't been
• 14:26
  approached.
• 14:27
  We're talking about someone that's retired and it's a special day for one of the great
• 14:33
  guys of our game and a great friend, the very old Sean Fitzpatrick for the year 51-52.
• 14:40
  Well, I was born in 1963, Ricardo, and I know Jake Hayne might struggle to work that
• 14:45
  out, but I'm 62 today.
• 14:50
  Great way to celebrate your birthday by spending it with the South African.
• 14:54
  So Victor's here.
• 14:55
  Hello Victor.
• 14:56
  Hello Sean, happy birthday my friend.
• 14:58
  Thank you very much.
• 14:59
  I'm going to get a younger, looking fantastic.
• 15:01
  We are.
• 15:02
  I'm feeling, feeling very good actually.
• 15:04
  It's a nice day, nice day here in London.
• 15:07
  You must take more ice balls than John, John do at the moment because he doesn't look
• 15:12
  bad, great.
• 15:13
  Victor, Victor like, I tell you a little story about Sean Fitzpatrick, he came down to New
• 15:18
  Zealand the summer and the first thing he did was jump straight into an ice bath mate.
• 15:24
  I'm telling you man, you've got to get into it.
• 15:27
  I'm telling you, John is, as Sean has taken some brandy and coax as well, that's why.
• 15:32
  I think that's actually the secret.
• 15:34
  No, I highly recommend Victor.
• 15:38
  But see, we thought we'd get you on here and just talk, you know, you've got such a
• 15:43
  love-hate relationship with South Africa over the years, but they used to hate you, but
• 15:49
  now they quite like you when you go and visit.
• 15:51
  Yeah, I suppose that's one of the nice things about our sport, isn't it?
• 15:56
  You know, we compete on the field and then when we go off the field, we enjoy a bear
• 16:01
  together or whatever and just get on with it, but yeah, I have such fond memories of South
• 16:07
  Africa.
• 16:08
  It's one of those places that J.K. and I, when we were in the all blacks in the sort of 80s,
• 16:14
  we never thought we'd go to South Africa and in 1992 was a dream country, just looking
• 16:20
  back to that 92 to, you know, that 96 to, and obviously 95.
• 16:28
  And that's the wonderful thing now, J.K. we, you know, we've got Victor on the podcast,
• 16:34
  but some of my, some of my dearest friends, Louisville or not, are a form of foes from South
• 16:41
  Africa.
• 16:42
  I think that's a really interesting point.
• 16:44
  Is that, is that what makes the greatest rivalries is that, is it that ability to dislike
• 16:51
  each other for 80 minutes?
• 16:53
  Does that create a better relationship afterwards?
• 16:56
  Yeah, I think so.
• 16:57
  We didn't, we were always careful weren't we in terms of South Africa, you know, Australia
• 17:03
  in the late 80s, early 90s were a phenomenal team, they really challenged us and we didn't
• 17:10
  really get too close to each other, because we didn't want them to know what we were really
• 17:15
  like.
• 17:16
  And that's a nice thing being retired now, you know, the microliners of the world, McFarjones,
• 17:21
  Phil Kurnes, you know, the South Africans, Francois, Joel Stransky, we can sort of now
• 17:30
  enjoy, enjoy the memory of our days of playing against each other.
• 17:35
  Fitty, you got me dropped from the all blacks obviously when, you know, at the end of my career
• 17:39
  because it was your fault, but besides that, that tour, you know, the first tour that New
• 17:46
  Zealand won the series, I mean, you know, I don't have any regrets when I look back on
• 17:51
  my career, but that must have been an incredible moment.
• 17:53
  I know we won the 92, but, you know, just coming out of isolation, they probably weren't
• 18:00
  at their best, although don't repeat that to my South African friends, but, you know,
• 18:05
  a couple of years in that one, I can always remember you smacking the ground at the end
• 18:12
  of that series after winning it.
• 18:13
  I mean, how amazing was that tour?
• 18:16
  I suppose the disappoint was in 1995 and that opportunity we had in 1995 to win the
• 18:23
  World Cup.
• 18:24
  And, you know, Laurie Maynes had done such a phenomenal job of developing that team from
• 18:28
  1992, and we just fell shorter in 1995 and, you know, John Hart came in and did a phenomenal
• 18:36
  job of bringing out a team together, you know, the management team, Ricardo.
• 18:44
  And it was the first sort of professional tour in 1996, and I think we took 36 players,
• 18:52
  we had two teams, you know, and it was a proper tour, you know, we, you know, we, you
• 18:58
  know, went, you know, to Poland, Orange Free State, Western Province, you know, and we
• 19:04
  had, you know, a three-tier series on the back of a, of a Trionations, which was the last
• 19:10
  game being in Cape Town at Newlands, and then we went to King's Park for the start of
• 19:15
  the series.
• 19:16
  But just an amazing tour, yeah, they didn't really like us, but we were quite good in 96,
• 19:25
  and so in South Africa, they were the current World Champions, and we made a real point
• 19:31
  of making sure all 36 players, all the management were really involved in making sure we are
• 19:38
  successful, a successful team, and, yeah, sure, you know, they're going at Loftus First
• 19:44
  World, we knew we had to win that, and we only just won at King's Park, I think it was
• 19:49
  319 or something, and then went to Loftus and knowing we had to win that, because Victor
• 19:56
  going, going to Alice Park in those days for a decide was not really what we were looking
• 20:01
  for, but, you know, what effort we'd put onto it, and, and how much it meant to us, you
• 20:10
  know, to, you know, the Don Clarks of the World, saying to me, I can now die a happy man
• 20:15
  knowing the All Blacks and one of our test series in South Africa, you know, with tears
• 20:19
  and arise.
• 20:20
  Victor, can you, you know, you're a bit younger than Sean, a lot younger than Sean, what
• 20:26
  are your memories of him as a player when you're a young rugby supporter, did he annoy
• 20:31
  you?
• 20:32
  Yeah, I think, like you said, it was probably someone we loved to hate, and probably the two
• 20:39
  guys, I got most respectful in world record that's not South African, it's probably
• 20:45
  Sean and George Gregan, and both of them were pretty much the same, all the guys loved
• 20:51
  to hate them, and it's funny, now after everything is done, they probably, the two guys, everyone,
• 20:59
  everyone wants to add a function if they come to South Africa, those other two guys, people
• 21:04
  want to talk to, they want to hear their stories, they want to hear how they saw South Africa,
• 21:09
  and I think that game and ship, that captain's heroes that they play, just to try and influence
• 21:15
  their referees, sometimes caught under the skin of South Africans, but I think that's
• 21:21
  what it's about, if you're a top quality player, the opposition supporters shouldn't love
• 21:28
  you at that time, but that's what we said, John, we spoke about it, I mean, the respect
• 21:35
  in each country, I think you guys must feel it, whenever you get to South Africa, there's
• 21:40
  almost more respect to the old black place, and maybe New Zealand itself, because people
• 21:45
  just love the old blacks, and for me it was pretty much the same, whenever I went to New
• 21:51
  Zealand, if I read the papers, I was like, people in South Africa don't think I'm that good,
• 21:57
  that what they do in New Zealand, so it was always nice to get over there, when I go back
• 22:01
  to Iran, I was like, why is he standing in the back line, why doesn't he ever get involved
• 22:05
  in the ruckus, to get a lot of abuse there, but yeah, I mean 95, we knew Sean was leading
• 22:13
  that amazing team, and yeah, somehow we got the drop hole of John, it was fantastic for
• 22:19
  us, but I mean 96 they came over, and unfortunately I have to say it, New Zealand beats South Africa
• 22:28
  more than we beat them, so whenever we get the victory over New Zealand, it's really
• 22:33
  special for us, and I mean, that's an ultimate victory you can get.
• 22:39
  Victor, has the game survived in some of those smaller towns that we went to, I mean one
• 22:43
  of the greatest things about touring South Africa, we're going to some of those smaller
• 22:47
  towns like Fitsi mentioned, you know, up on the valve.
• 22:50
  Yeah, I think you dropped away a little bit, I'm actually sitting here in Rustinburg, and
• 22:55
  we played all blacks here in the Buffalo King stadium in 2006, and it was back, and then
• 23:01
  people loved it.
• 23:02
  I think the rugby is still there, somewhere on the last two, three years we started to
• 23:07
  really look after our club, club rugby again, getting its own identity as well, away from
• 23:14
  professional rugby, I mean it's a mine out here, and all of them, that's the second-based
• 23:20
  club in South Africa at the moment, and I think the town itself is like 100,000 people,
• 23:26
  but the mine, love rugby, the club, they get players in that come and play for them,
• 23:32
  so yeah, we're trying to grow that club rugby, especially in the smaller towns, so I don't
• 23:41
  think it's quite the same, I think it's all blacks go over now and they play Buehland,
• 23:46
  it won't be a test for all blacks, but that's something we're working on.
• 23:51
  I'm a big believer, South Africa gone only at five top teams, I think the talent that
• 23:56
  we've got in South Africa, we should be able to have six, seven, maybe eight very strong
• 24:01
  teams, the big problem for us in South Africa is finances, is can we afford to have eight
• 24:08
  teams with 30 legs of professional players in South Africa, and at this stage it's probably
• 24:13
  our big problems out of South Africa.
• 24:16
  Sean, what was your approach to referees, I mean, Victor's mentioned it, did you sort
• 24:22
  of prepare, did you get to, yeah, you obviously got to know them, did you go into a game with
• 24:27
  a plan that this guy's maybe a bit weak or get under his skin, or this guy's a bit tough
• 24:32
  or whole-backed, or did you just freelance it and just be annoying just by nature?
• 24:37
  No, my idea, Ricard, if you got on well with the referee, you know, in those days we
• 24:45
  didn't have a referee, a TMI up in the sky, it was the referee who made all the decisions.
• 24:53
  And if you got on well with him, but he liked you, those 50-50 decisions might go, might
• 24:58
  go you away.
• 24:59
  So that was my sort of approach, get on well with the referee, have a bear with him
• 25:03
  after the game, and I think you mentioned George Gregg and Victor, when he first started
• 25:10
  playing, he was the complete opposite to me, and I knew that, so I used to wind him up,
• 25:19
  and then he would go off at the referee, then the referee would dislike him, and it
• 25:23
  was perfect, but that was sort of my philosophy, that took a while, being a captain is not
• 25:30
  easy, now it's not something you learn overnight, so I think that comes with age, and I knew
• 25:39
  it annoyed the South Africans, and our days we didn't warm up on the field, we used to
• 25:45
  warm up inside, but I'd always make a point of going out and doing a circuit of the ground
• 25:52
  just to wind the crowd up, basically, and then he's throwing that, exactly, and I'll be
• 25:56
  like, yes, yes, it's great.
• 25:58
  Oranges, no, there's oranges.
• 26:00
  Oranges.
• 26:02
  But that was just the way it was, and I think the guys playing today, they know the referee
• 26:09
  so well, and it's just a way of leading a team really.
• 26:15
  It was actually interesting, I heard when Sia took over the captain's seat, he was very inexperienced,
• 26:23
  and Rossi had like a plan for him with every referee, so this is the only two things that
• 26:29
  you'll talk to him about, maybe one positive thing, there's some televisions here about what
• 26:34
  he's doing well, and maybe there's one area, let's say maybe a scrum we have brought, and
• 26:38
  that's the only two things, other things you just leave him, other referees when they're
• 26:42
  younger, sometimes you can be a little bit more aggressive towards them, they might feel
• 26:49
  like I need to listen, especially if you're like Sean, say if you're a little bit older,
• 26:53
  you've been there for a long time, but I think these days, something at the end of my career,
• 26:58
  even we brought in a referee coach, so he just studied the referee, he knows exactly how you
• 27:06
  need to talk to him, he knows where his weaknesses are in the game, and also where his strengths
• 27:11
  is, and if you know he's got certain strengths, boost him about it, but if there's certain things
• 27:16
  that you know he's not sure about us trying to put the picture in his mind, let's say a scrum
• 27:22
  of a darted going in, or a lucid maybe going around the corner, or someone just injuring
• 27:26
  and keep on reminding him that's what's happening in this scrum, so I think these days the
• 27:32
  pressure you can still influence the referees. There's that cheating, right, because when you think
• 27:39
  about it, so when you think about it, and this is part of the problem with our game that I'd like
• 27:45
  to see improve, take a lot less pressure, less pressure off the referee, less decisions,
• 27:51
  because when you come down to the last five minutes, as a game, should we be allowed to talk
• 27:56
  to the referee, because if you can influence his decision, and I don't disagree with you, Victor,
• 28:01
  I'd do exactly the same as you know, but is that like unfairly influencing, I mean,
• 28:06
  we're seeing that with the players nowadays too, and I think it's a topic that needs to be
• 28:12
  discussed, should we just not talk to him? I actually think the thing that's even worse, that's
• 28:18
  also happening, and I know I don't know if it's still happening, but at the end of our career,
• 28:21
  we always had a meeting on the Friday before game with our referee, so we'd have a few clips,
• 28:27
  and there's certain things that we want to achieve in the game, that's our moors really strong,
• 28:32
  we wanted to be hot on guys, maybe not sucking it or coming from the side, just putting that
• 28:38
  pressure, and the big thing there was really to pick one or two points that you want him
• 28:43
  to referee, the way you want it, because I mean, that's a one thing with referees,
• 28:48
  if you talk to New Zealand referees, remember, they work a lot with the local clubs,
• 28:53
  or the local unions in their country before a preseason, and they certain things,
• 29:00
  those clubs won't, and the referees normally are working together with their local teams,
• 29:04
  and South Africa, we want certain things, and that's why referees see and interpretation again,
• 29:11
  certain ways, so whenever you get a referee that you know, interpreting it, something like
• 29:17
  you wanted to, you need to try and force him to see your picture. And cheating's a big word,
• 29:22
  and I'm using it on purpose, but if you can influence, if you can influence someone's decision,
• 29:31
  is it not actually against the law, is it not against the values of a game and against the law?
• 29:38
  You're talking gamesmanship.
• 29:40
  Gamesmanship, I think gamesmanship is different to cheating JK.
• 29:44
  Well no, I'm not, I'm using cheating as probably the wrong word, and I do it on purpose,
• 29:48
  but what I'm saying to you is that, if like those, I've been to those meetings Victor,
• 29:53
  and I thought they were really productive when I was coaching Italy, and you know,
• 29:56
  would have them, and then when you move on a bit, they're just the waste of time, because you
• 30:00
  shouldn't be able to influence the coach. So when's the line between gamesmanship and influence,
• 30:06
  like if you've influenced the referee in the last five minutes, two decisions go your way,
• 30:12
  and you win the game, what is that?
• 30:14
  Maybe in our time, JK, I think you could probably influence the referee in terms of his decision
• 30:20
  making. I don't think that's the case now, JK. I don't think a decision can be influenced by
• 30:29
  personalities, I think because there are so many people watching the game now.
• 30:35
  I, in our day JK, was gamesmanship, and we got better and better at it as we got older.
• 30:42
  I remember a 92 JK, I didn't know what I was doing. I had to come to you and Foxy and say, you know,
• 30:49
  how do we do this? And that's just a learning process that happens over the years. You look at
• 30:54
  Scott Barrett, he's going to be a much better captain this year than he will have last year,
• 30:59
  because it's just a learning process. No one is, there's some people are made to be captains,
• 31:08
  some people learn. Victor, you talk about SEA, that's a classic example of somebody who's got
• 31:14
  better with age and experience. And that's the only way you're going to get better is
• 31:20
  through being in situations that you put under pressure and dealing with referees is one of those
• 31:27
  situations that you get better at over the years. JK, we talked about it last week actually as well,
• 31:33
  with speeding up a game, slowing down a game. I mean, we saw this weekend with Edinburgh coming
• 31:42
  down to the Bulls playing at altitude 30 degrees, which they're not used to. And I mean, every time
• 31:50
  there was a break, the water boys were on the field slowing the game down. So those are one of those
• 31:55
  things where you say, is it against the culture of the game of what we believe in? But I mean,
• 32:03
  that's been happening for years. There was times where we had really big
• 32:07
  forward that couldn't run for 80 minutes. You couldn't put on the bomb squads,
• 32:11
  so you had to slow it down. And if you somehow can get away with it, then it's good. But if you
• 32:16
  the other captain, you need to be in the referees, yes, please, we need to speed up the game. These guys
• 32:22
  can't get, I mean, that's where experience leader will have a soft skill just to be able to
• 32:30
  get something over to the referees. Listen, we want to speed up the game. Come on, you need to look
• 32:34
  at this. Oh, if you're on the other side, listen, my props really saw, although you walked 40 meters
• 32:41
  before you went down, it just got there, whatever. I mean, that's, I mean, experience leader. And
• 32:46
  that's why you sometimes keep on picking a leader, even if he's maybe not the best in his position
• 32:52
  anymore. But this is where I totally disagree, Victor, because I don't think that that, that should
• 32:59
  not be in our game. That's too much on the referee, right? That's why I want to see, now, I don't want
• 33:05
  to see the scrum gone. I don't want to see the mall gone. All I want is that the game is sped up. So
• 33:11
  if we're like, you think 30 years ago, Fitsy, of course, if I was sitting in the stand on
• 33:16
  South African, I would hate you, because I would think that your gamemanship was cheating,
• 33:21
  right? Because I'd look at you and go, Fitsy, you're unnecessarily influencing the ref.
• 33:28
  So let's talk about, now, my trouble is, Victor, that there's no way that we should be able to
• 33:33
  influence the game like that by slowing it down or trying to speed it up if it relies on one person.
• 33:40
  We need, we don't need to change the rules, we just need to enforce them because the interpretation
• 33:45
  is too widespread for me. So let's get away from the, let's get away from the discussion about
• 33:52
  the bomb squad, because I get it. But if that bomb squad could then comes on to purposely slow
• 33:58
  down the game, I look at that and think it's cheating. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, I just agree,
• 34:05
  I just agree with you, Jacob. Well, that's normal. Because that's, well, I get grassy arrestments
• 34:12
  and this is an African team, one of the last two will cups. For the bomb squad, because Rassie,
• 34:19
  they think, they think, they think differently than everyone else.
• 34:23
  Totally. Let's talk about, let's talk about, let's talk about the impact of the bench.
• 34:30
  That's a different argument. No, it's not, no, it's not. Because what I'm saying is,
• 34:35
  if you listened, I'm saying that Rassie Erasmus has changed the face of the game.
• 34:42
  Jacob, as we speak about captains, that experience, so there's certain referees.
• 34:48
  If you get a really experienced referee, that's when you most of the time, just say thank you
• 34:53
  and you keep listening because you know you don't want to get under your skin because
• 34:58
  then there might be one or two things against you. And he's so
• 35:03
  strong, opinionated about his own view. There's no way you'll be able to influence him. But I think
• 35:08
  that's what's so nice about Rassie, there's all these different things. I'll
• 35:11
  coaches look at the game, how they use their bench, how they use their captain to influence
• 35:16
  their referee, how they're gonna play a fast game, a slow game. That's why our game is so amazing
• 35:21
  because there's all these different things that you try and get to play to your favour. And
• 35:28
  that's why there's two teams and both got their own way of doing things and the one who
• 35:33
  do it the best when the game. And you think what we talk about a lot, the way we're doing it
• 35:41
  yesterday is not good enough to win tomorrow, right? And that's exactly what Victor signed. We need to
• 35:48
  we need to be ahead of the game, being the number one team in the world. So that figure is not
• 35:54
  good enough. I don't know if you understood what I was talking about. What I'm saying is that the
• 35:59
  reason that's inevitable is Rassie. Rassie is the most innovative coach that we've had for a
• 36:08
  long time. He for me is brought the most innovation to our game, okay? And I understand the bomb squad
• 36:16
  and I get it. Do I like it? No, I dislike it because if the rules were not interpreted and actually
• 36:24
  just influenced, then he might not do that. If the rules were fast, would he have a bomb squad?
• 36:30
  If we actually enforce some of these laws so the game sped up, he'll come up with something
• 36:36
  different. But what I'm saying to you is that what's happening is there's an undue influence
• 36:42
  by interpretation from one referee and it's not the referees fault to the last 20 referees,
• 36:49
  right? So I'm not saying that's it ever getting deserved to win. They weren't innovative
• 36:53
  around the bomb squad. What I'm saying is I just don't like that you can influence a game by doing
• 36:58
  that stuff. You know what, it's again, it's about knowing the laws. And I think a lot of coaches
• 37:04
  coach, but they don't know the little of the law exactly. And I can tell you Rassie goes and he
• 37:11
  studies it and he knows exactly how to use each and every law to his advantage. I mean, he was
• 37:19
  the first guy. He was still playing and I remember the crusaders were so good from kick-offs
• 37:24
  because they had all his width because only two guys in and he was the first guy to say listen,
• 37:28
  guys, if we don't have someone in the rut, there's no off-site. And I remember we playing the
• 37:33
  crusaders one game. The guy made the tackle, rolled out of the thing and everyone went off-site as
• 37:39
  nine possible to ten the guy was standing next to him because there was no off-site slime. And Rassie
• 37:44
  always been like that. So I mean putting a bomb squad on where you put seven guys on,
• 37:49
  you must must know exactly. If there is an injury, isn't there something I can use to get one
• 37:54
  of my players back? I mean, even if you've got an injury and the guy holds his head and it's really
• 37:59
  sure you can't argue, you have to go and you have to replace him. So you need to understand exactly
• 38:05
  how to play it. Sometimes it's on the edge, but I mean he knows the little of the law exactly
• 38:11
  and he knows exactly how to use it to his own advantage. Okay, like this is deep in here because
• 38:17
  we're basically having the same agent we had last week and also there we are one of the greatest rugby
• 38:22
  players of all time. On this birthday and all we're doing is talking to him about cheating and
• 38:26
  influencing referees. So yeah, let's say you're a great player and someone that we all respect a
• 38:32
  lot and go and enjoy your birthday. Yes, 65 candles and and thanks for joining us.
• 38:43
  Oh, you look 65. Love you. Have a great day. You're looking well, brother.
• 38:49
  Thanks. So nice to see you. Right, thanks, Betsy. And before we go, we've got some big sort of playoffs
• 38:58
  happening. So, first of all, Victor, what's going to happen in the URC playoffs?
• 39:02
  Yeah, it's a big weekend. Big game between the sharks and the bulls. Look, I hope the bulls can
• 39:09
  pull it off. But the sharks, although they're not playing well, they've got the team on paper that
• 39:15
  can beat any team. I mean, if those guys click on the day, they will be very hard to beat. They've
• 39:20
  beaten the bulls twice already this year. So it's not going to be easy, but the other game that I'm
• 39:26
  actually more interested in is let's hope Glears go. Can opposite links that again, semi-finals,
• 39:33
  finals, they starting to feel the pressure. So if Glears go can pull it off, we can have a home
• 39:40
  final inside Africa, it doesn't matter if it's the bulls or the sharks hosting it. So let's go,
• 39:45
  let's go. Can you can you stop annoying everyone in Ireland? Please, like everyone in
• 39:49
  Munster wants to kill everyone in the shark's territory. To be honest, I actually wish they do all
• 39:55
  and I think, although I'm hoping, I think this is the earlens who's going to win the URC. I think
• 40:02
  all they focus is shifted to the URC after they got knocked out in the Champions Cup. And I mean,
• 40:09
  I'm such a big fan of Jacques Nino, but I think he's right up there with Russia as the base coach
• 40:14
  in the world. And I mean, they've played amazing though. Yeah, they just need to get
• 40:22
  passes mental block. And for you, JK, before we go, what's going to happen in the Super rugby playoffs?
• 40:28
  Yeah, I just think to talk about your bulls just quickly, Victor, like they're going to have to play
• 40:32
  for 80 minutes because the game I watched on the weekend, you know, they sort of started playing,
• 40:37
  well, they played 45 minutes and they played bloody well, but you can't let a team like that get
• 40:42
  away. Well, I'm just really happy. The Blues have made it, Ricardo. You know, I think it's been a
• 40:47
  really tough season for the Blues, so I'm happy they're going to make it. Does that mean they're
• 40:52
  just going to be satisfied? It's a massive game because I've got the Chiefs, obviously. So for me,
• 40:58
  you know, the Chiefs have stumbled the last couple years. If you look on form, the Chiefs should
• 41:04
  win it. And if the Blues don't, then I'd like them for them to win it. But at the end of the day,
• 41:11
  they've also had some troubles going into the playoffs. So for me, that's the big game of the weekend.
• 41:17
  You know, for me, if the Chiefs don't front, then it's going to be a really, really hard one for
• 41:23
  them to swallow again. Well, gentlemen, so, you know, good to have that rival in New Zealand,
• 41:28
  South Africa, but also good to maybe agree on two things out of 300 discussed today. So, you know,
• 41:34
  we're taking a step forward, which is really good and little steps to start with. This rivals for
• 41:40
  this week, we'll catch you again next week.