Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #639 Online Sextortion With Detective Superintendent Jayne Crossling

Transcript

#639 Online Sextortion With Detective Superintendent Jayne Crossling · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:03
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
0:07
Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.
0:10
Speaker 2: Now, kids need to have a radar, they need to
0:15
Speaker 2: understand what's going on online and that not everybody is
0:19
Speaker 2: who they say they are when they're online.
0:21
Speaker 1: And now here's the scars of our show, My Mum
0:24
Speaker 1: and Dad.
0:25
Speaker 3: A quick content warning for today's podcast.
0:27
Speaker 4: While not explicit, the material that we're sharing today may
0:31
Speaker 4: not be suitable for younger listeners. Parental discretion is advised.
0:36
Speaker 4: We're having a conversation today with Detective Superintendent Jane Crossling.
0:41
Speaker 4: Jane is from the Australian Center to Counter Child Exploitation
0:45
Speaker 4: also known as ACE, essentially Australian Federal Police looking after
0:49
Speaker 4: our kids online. Jane, really an absolute delight to be
0:52
Speaker 4: able to speak with you on the Happy Families podcast today.
0:54
Speaker 3: Thank you for joining me.
0:56
Speaker 5: Thank you Justin.
0:57
Speaker 4: Can you tell us a bit about what ACE does,
0:59
Speaker 4: the A triples EACE, What do you guys do with
1:02
Speaker 4: the AFP.
1:03
Speaker 2: So, it's a center, it's based in Brisbane and it
1:06
Speaker 2: is led by the Australian Federal Police and it is
1:09
Speaker 2: essentially the front door for reporting of crimes associated with
1:14
Speaker 2: children being exploited online. So we take all of the
1:17
Speaker 2: reports that have an Australian nexus from all the social
1:21
Speaker 2: media services, and really importantly we take reports where someone
1:26
Speaker 2: under the age of eighteen has been exploited online where
1:29
Speaker 2: either the offender or the victim is Australian.
1:32
Speaker 4: Okay, I want to just differentiate between what you do
1:35
Speaker 4: and what the E Safety Commissioner does, because they look
1:39
Speaker 4: after a whole lot of bullying stuff online. They look
1:41
Speaker 4: after all sorts of sordid and challenging things that are
1:44
Speaker 4: occurring online. How is ACE with the AFP different to
1:47
Speaker 4: the Australian Government's E Safety Commissioner.
1:51
Speaker 2: So we very much work closely with the a Safety
1:54
Speaker 2: Commissioner and we have an excellent partnership.
1:57
Speaker 5: The E Safety Commissioner.
1:58
Speaker 2: Is responsible definitely for cyberbullying in the child context, image
2:04
Speaker 2: based abuse where it relates to an adult, and they
2:07
Speaker 2: are also responsible as the regulator for content that any
2:11
Speaker 2: Australians have access to. They have tremendous powers to be
2:15
Speaker 2: able to remove content if it is harmful, of horrent
2:19
Speaker 2: or essentially illegal. We in the Australia, for the police
2:23
Speaker 2: and certainly the ACE, are responsible for investigating crimes associated
2:28
Speaker 2: with children being abused online.
2:31
Speaker 4: Okay, so I have an example that I want to share.
2:33
Speaker 4: It is quite sensitive, and, as I shared at the
2:36
Speaker 4: start of the podcast, listener discretion is advised, but if
2:39
Speaker 4: you've got tweens or teens, it's probably worth hearing this
2:42
Speaker 4: story and being aware that this stuff happens. So a
2:44
Speaker 4: mum contacted me maybe four or five weeks ago. She
2:46
Speaker 4: said that her teenage son came into the bedroom crying.
2:49
Speaker 4: He was really distressed. She managed to help him to
2:52
Speaker 4: be calm, said what's going on? He said, Mom, I
2:55
Speaker 4: just I need to borrow five hundred dollars And she said, sweetheart,
2:58
Speaker 4: what do you need five hundred dollars? You've never asked
3:01
Speaker 4: for money before. What's going on? He said, I can't
3:03
Speaker 4: tell you. I just need the five hundred dollars. She said, kiddo,
3:06
Speaker 4: I love you and I will give you the five
3:08
Speaker 4: hundred bucks if it's appropriate, but I need to know
3:10
Speaker 4: why you need five hundred dollars and why.
3:12
Speaker 3: You're so distressed about it. What trouble are you in.
3:15
Speaker 4: Eventually he calmed down enough to tell her that he'd
3:18
Speaker 4: met this really, really gorgeous girl online. She was from overseas.
3:21
Speaker 4: She'd been snapchatting with him. She was a friend of
3:24
Speaker 4: a friend of a friend. They'd gotten a little bit
3:26
Speaker 4: intimate in their snapchat messaging. Then after a couple of
3:30
Speaker 4: weeks of this, she had sent him an image.
3:33
Speaker 3: Of herself completely naked, send a nude image.
3:36
Speaker 4: Via Snapchat, which he was obviously enticed and aroused by,
3:40
Speaker 4: And then she sent another one and said, now it's
3:42
Speaker 4: your turn. You need to send me one. He did that,
3:44
Speaker 4: and then she disclosed to him that she wasn't actually
3:46
Speaker 4: who she said she was, and she was I don't
3:48
Speaker 4: know some middle aged men overseas and unless he could
3:52
Speaker 4: send a couple hundred dollars in bitcoin immediately, that image
3:56
Speaker 4: that he had sent, the nude image of himself to
3:58
Speaker 4: her was going to be shared with every everybody in
4:01
Speaker 4: his online directory, on his Facebook, on his Snapchat, on
4:04
Speaker 4: his TikTok, but the whole lot was going to go
4:06
Speaker 4: out to everyone parents' grandparents of the lot. He actually
4:09
Speaker 4: made a transfer of a couple of hundred dollars in bitcoin.
4:12
Speaker 4: Then she said, or he said, or the offender said,
4:14
Speaker 4: actually that's not quite enough.
4:16
Speaker 3: Now I need five hundred.
4:17
Speaker 4: And at that point he realized he was out of money,
4:19
Speaker 4: he didn't have any options, and he went to his
4:20
Speaker 4: mum and said, I really need help. This is I
4:23
Speaker 4: guess the kind of work that you're dealing with regularly.
4:25
Speaker 4: This is that exploitation online that you're describing.
4:28
Speaker 2: Yes, you have provided what is precisely the scenario that
4:34
Speaker 2: we are seeing play out across Australia.
4:37
Speaker 3: Jane, how much happened? Like? How much is this happening?
4:40
Speaker 4: Because we're hearing about online fraud and online hacking and
4:43
Speaker 4: online scams more.
4:44
Speaker 3: Than we've ever heard before.
4:45
Speaker 4: How much is this child tweeneen online sexual exploitation happening?
4:51
Speaker 2: Okay, So these groups that are behind it definitely predominantly offshore.
4:57
Speaker 2: So these are the same groups that have been scamming
5:00
Speaker 2: us through a variety of different types of scams for decades,
5:05
Speaker 2: and they have evolved so now they are seeing young
5:09
Speaker 2: people as targets, particularly westernized countries. So Australia in that regard.
5:14
Speaker 5: Is not immune.
5:16
Speaker 2: So the reports that we are getting, we're averaging about
5:20
Speaker 2: one hundred children and all their families coming forward to
5:26
Speaker 2: various Australian authorities each month in Australia right now, and
5:30
Speaker 2: that is trending upwards. The way that you describe that
5:34
Speaker 2: scenario is precisely how it does tend to play out
5:37
Speaker 2: so a young person, and it's predominantly boys at the moment.
5:42
Speaker 2: Our data shows it's ninety two percent of boys are
5:46
Speaker 2: actually being victimized with this particular type of scam, and
5:51
Speaker 2: it plays out differently between girls and boys. But what
5:55
Speaker 2: generally happens is that they're friended on a party, get
6:00
Speaker 2: a platform, and then moved very rapidly to a different
6:06
Speaker 2: platform where they can chat in more relative privacy, so
6:10
Speaker 2: it might be some sort of encrypto chat platform.
6:12
Speaker 5: The conversations frequently turn.
6:16
Speaker 2: Very sexualized, and there is, as you describe, that sharing
6:20
Speaker 2: of sexualized image read by the offender who is often
6:24
Speaker 2: purporting to be a very attractive female in the boys scenario,
6:28
Speaker 2: and then the request comes out for the boy to
6:33
Speaker 2: produce self produced imagery of himself and then share it,
6:37
Speaker 2: and then that extortion or sextortion that we've referred to,
6:43
Speaker 2: then that takes place.
6:44
Speaker 5: They frequently ask for a very very high amount of
6:47
Speaker 5: money that is inconceivable for a young person, and they
6:51
Speaker 5: at times enter into negotiations, and just like in.
6:55
Speaker 2: Your scenario, sometimes payment does not make the problem go away.
7:00
Speaker 2: Sometimes that just is the start of it. They will
7:03
Speaker 2: continue to demand payment over a period of time. So
7:08
Speaker 2: this is really worrying us. We believe that it's severely underreported.
7:13
Speaker 2: So I said that we're getting about one hundred reports
7:15
Speaker 2: a month. We believe that it is far more prevalent
7:18
Speaker 2: than we're aware of. We are hoping that we do
7:22
Speaker 2: two key things right now, two things driving and reporting.
7:28
Speaker 2: So reporting really needs to come into the ace predominantly.
7:32
Speaker 5: We need to have those reports, and then also prevention.
7:37
Speaker 2: We need to find ways to reach into the hearts
7:41
Speaker 2: and minds of young people so that they know the signs,
7:44
Speaker 2: they know how to detect when the scam might be
7:48
Speaker 2: playing out right in front of their eyes.
7:51
Speaker 4: Don't know if you can answer this one or not, Jane,
7:52
Speaker 4: but are there any specific platforms that parents should be
7:56
Speaker 4: particularly mindful of where this kind of exploitation occurs more
8:00
Speaker 4: than perhaps other platforms? Is there any is there anywhere
8:03
Speaker 4: that's safer? Is there anywhere that's less safe?
8:06
Speaker 3: Statistically, we get this.
8:08
Speaker 2: Question a lot justin and we do try to not
8:12
Speaker 2: demonize particular platforms, particularly if they can be used in
8:18
Speaker 2: a relatively safe manner. So Essentially, the platforms are the
8:24
Speaker 2: types of platforms that young people typically congregate on. They're
8:28
Speaker 2: the ones these scammers. They are essentially about making money.
8:32
Speaker 2: This is a whole new type of offending that we
8:34
Speaker 2: haven't necessarily had to deal with in the past. When
8:37
Speaker 2: we've dealt with offenders, it's because they have a sexual
8:41
Speaker 2: interest in children. This is not the case with this
8:44
Speaker 2: particular cohort. This is organized crime based offshore who are
8:49
Speaker 2: seeing these children as a money making opportunity and they're
8:53
Speaker 2: being completely exploded financially and do not care about the
8:58
Speaker 2: impact on young people and the effects across the community.
9:01
Speaker 2: So the platform will be something that is attractive to
9:06
Speaker 2: young people generally, but it doesn't.
9:09
Speaker 5: Really matter what that platform is.
9:10
Speaker 2: They're moved off that platform so rapidly onto encrypt chat.
9:18
Speaker 4: Jane, I want to highlight something that I think is
9:21
Speaker 4: critical here, and that is how few parents are really
9:25
Speaker 4: engaging with what their children are doing online.
9:28
Speaker 3: So, as you're aware, I travel around the country.
9:30
Speaker 4: I give lots and lots of talks all over the
9:32
Speaker 4: place in schools, in corporates and all sorts of organizations,
9:35
Speaker 4: and whenever the topic moves to the digital space, we
9:38
Speaker 4: see a massive decline in parents showing up for these
9:41
Speaker 4: parent evenings or showing up for the toolbox talks at
9:45
Speaker 4: lunch time. It's almost like there's this passive disinterest. It's
9:49
Speaker 4: kind of like, oh, look, the kids are going to
9:50
Speaker 4: be on the screens and they'll be fine. Why is
9:53
Speaker 4: it do you think that parents are less likely to
9:55
Speaker 4: be engaged and what can we do to help parents
9:58
Speaker 4: to be more in on this suff because clearly it's
10:01
Speaker 4: affecting their children in significant and concerning ways.
10:04
Speaker 2: Yes, until it actually happens to a child or someone
10:08
Speaker 2: close to a family group, yeah, I don't think they
10:11
Speaker 2: fully appreciate the impact of when things go wrong online.
10:15
Speaker 2: So this is a problem that the strength of the
10:17
Speaker 2: police has grappled with for a while now. We do
10:19
Speaker 2: have an online safety program, could think you know, and
10:23
Speaker 2: that is an opportunity to have people come and speak
10:27
Speaker 2: to parents, teachers and carers, and yeah, we get mixed
10:31
Speaker 2: face to face attendance at these sorts of events. We've
10:35
Speaker 2: grappled with that challenge of how to engage the potentially
10:38
Speaker 2: disengaged parents, and we've also done some market research to
10:42
Speaker 2: show and it confirms exactly what you're seeing anecdotally it
10:46
Speaker 2: confirms that only about half of parents know what their
10:51
Speaker 2: children are doing online and would know how to have
10:54
Speaker 2: a conversation about what their child is doing. The really
10:57
Speaker 2: critical message that if we only have one key message,
11:02
Speaker 2: is that parents need to talk to their children. Parents
11:06
Speaker 2: need to understand.
11:07
Speaker 5: How much of a part online.
11:11
Speaker 2: Behavior is of a young person's life, and they need
11:14
Speaker 2: to talk to their children about what they're doing and
11:17
Speaker 2: help them understand to recognize that there is sometimes suspicious behavior.
11:23
Speaker 5: Going on online.
11:25
Speaker 4: Okay, So there are two questions that come out of
11:27
Speaker 4: this conversation that we're having here. The first one is
11:30
Speaker 4: how do we prevent a scenario like I shared and
11:33
Speaker 4: like you've described from occurring in the first place. The
11:37
Speaker 4: second question is what do we do if it happens?
11:40
Speaker 4: So can we just go to question one? This is
11:42
Speaker 4: the thing, you know, kind of content, This is the
11:44
Speaker 4: idea where we're saying parents just be involved. But what's
11:48
Speaker 4: the central message that you would give to parents to
11:50
Speaker 4: help their kids to make safe, healthy decisions online.
11:53
Speaker 5: So I would absolutely say from a prevention standpoint, kids
11:57
Speaker 5: need to have a radar.
12:00
Speaker 2: They need to understand what's going on online and that
12:03
Speaker 2: not everybody is who they say they are when they're online,
12:07
Speaker 2: and I believe that these sorts of messages are caught
12:10
Speaker 2: throughout all the stages of the young person's development. But
12:13
Speaker 2: I think the key thing that a parent or a
12:16
Speaker 2: care can do in the home environment is to reinforce
12:18
Speaker 2: those messages.
12:19
Speaker 5: So kids need to have.
12:22
Speaker 2: An appreciation that they needed a little bit of sense
12:25
Speaker 2: checking when someone wants to friend them, and then they
12:28
Speaker 2: need to also understand when a conversation might turn very
12:33
Speaker 2: very sexual, very rapidly, what's behind that, what's going on there?
12:37
Speaker 5: And is there an opportunity to.
12:42
Speaker 2: Educate the kids to have better judgment when it comes
12:46
Speaker 2: to having these conversations in a highly sexualized way with
12:51
Speaker 2: someone that they genuinely don't know.
12:53
Speaker 3: Follow up question number one, how do you help kids
12:56
Speaker 3: to recognize that friends of friends of friends aren't really friends?
13:00
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a challenge.
13:02
Speaker 2: I think they need to be just a little bit
13:06
Speaker 2: more circumspect in their decision making online and I agree
13:12
Speaker 2: it is an absolute challenge, and it means that we
13:14
Speaker 2: have to keep being consistent with our messaging.
13:17
Speaker 5: Having law enforcement come into the school environment, and we
13:19
Speaker 5: certainly do that.
13:21
Speaker 2: The program that the AFP runs trains all the state
13:24
Speaker 2: and teratorary police, and then they go into the school
13:26
Speaker 2: environment to deliver directly to the young people in an
13:30
Speaker 2: age appropriate and segmented way. But it's going to have
13:35
Speaker 2: to be a consistent effort and everyone's going to have
13:37
Speaker 2: to be united in their messaging so that young people
13:42
Speaker 2: learn that discretion and learn to make some really safe
13:47
Speaker 2: choices when they're operating online.
13:49
Speaker 4: Okay, follow up question number two. How quickly do these
13:54
Speaker 4: sex storders, these groomers, how quickly do they step into
13:58
Speaker 4: sexualized conversation and start to make demand. I mean, in
14:00
Speaker 4: the example that was shared by the mom that spoke
14:02
Speaker 4: with me, this occurred over a couple of weeks. Is
14:05
Speaker 4: that standard? Does it happen faster? Is that particularly quick?
14:08
Speaker 4: What's the typical time frame that you're seeing this kind
14:11
Speaker 4: of thing happen.
14:13
Speaker 2: We are seeing a slight variation, but it can be
14:17
Speaker 2: very very rapid. We're seeing it, particularly for some of
14:21
Speaker 2: the younger victims. We're seeing that it's been very rapid
14:25
Speaker 2: in terms of turning towards being sexual. So you know,
14:30
Speaker 2: the friending happens very rapidly, then very very rapidly being
14:36
Speaker 2: moved to a different platform.
14:37
Speaker 5: That's an indicator.
14:39
Speaker 2: So this is something that we could highlight to young
14:42
Speaker 2: people to say, you know, there should be some suspicion
14:47
Speaker 2: there where you've been friended rapidly and then very rapidly
14:51
Speaker 2: moved off that platform to another platform. And there are
14:56
Speaker 2: other clues that a young person may not be all
14:58
Speaker 2: that sophisticated in picking up. But these are the sorts
15:01
Speaker 2: of clues that we've had to determine over the years
15:03
Speaker 2: so that we as adults are able to avoid scams.
15:06
Speaker 2: And that could be signs that there are inconsistencies, and
15:11
Speaker 2: there are may be signs that they don't have English
15:14
Speaker 2: as a first language.
15:16
Speaker 5: That's another sign.
15:18
Speaker 2: And they may make excuses to say, oh no, I
15:23
Speaker 2: actually can't turn on my webcam or my microphone's not
15:26
Speaker 2: working so that they can stick to chat. Because the
15:30
Speaker 2: organized crime syndicate behind all of this have only instructed
15:33
Speaker 2: all of their workers who are just operating, probably out
15:38
Speaker 2: of some sort of call center overseas, and they're told
15:42
Speaker 2: that the crime is facility had better if they just
15:45
Speaker 2: stick to the chat rather than dealing with microphones and
15:47
Speaker 2: obviously exposing themselves via a video to not being an
15:52
Speaker 2: attractive female.
15:53
Speaker 5: But these are all nuanced and sophisticated. So I think
15:57
Speaker 5: it all is necessary that parent.
16:00
Speaker 2: Help have that conversation based on their understanding of their
16:04
Speaker 2: own child and their understanding of you know, scams more
16:10
Speaker 2: broadly as well, and I think that can help alleviate
16:14
Speaker 2: and work towards our prevention goal.
16:16
Speaker 3: Okay, so that's prevention. What about when it's happened?
16:20
Speaker 4: What about when you have to be the ambulance at
16:23
Speaker 4: the bottom of the cliff rather than the fence at
16:24
Speaker 4: the top.
16:25
Speaker 3: This mum, she's had her son make a fairly substantial
16:29
Speaker 3: error of judgment.
16:31
Speaker 4: Now he's distressed, his sexual imagery is going to be
16:35
Speaker 4: potentially in fact, in this case, it was sent to
16:38
Speaker 4: grandparents and unties and uncles. It was sent to everybody
16:41
Speaker 4: in his friend's list, which caused considerable distress. How how
16:46
Speaker 4: do parents deal with that scenario? What happens when it's
16:50
Speaker 4: too late?
16:51
Speaker 5: Firstly, reporting very important, So we're.
16:54
Speaker 4: Going to link to We're going to link to the
16:56
Speaker 4: ACE website for reporting, But could you just share with
16:59
Speaker 4: a now as well?
17:00
Speaker 3: What's the website and how do people make this report?
17:03
Speaker 2: So there's a web form on the ACE website which
17:06
Speaker 2: is a triple C dot CoV dot au and we
17:11
Speaker 2: can absolutely provide a link that will take the listening
17:15
Speaker 2: community straight to that particular form, plus other resources more
17:19
Speaker 2: broadly as well. So just to answer your question, we
17:23
Speaker 2: can come autt this from two angles. One is the
17:26
Speaker 2: messages for the parents themselves and then also ways in
17:29
Speaker 2: which we can support the victim as well. So for
17:34
Speaker 2: parents and carers, we obviously want them to talk to
17:39
Speaker 2: their children already, we really advocate for a very open
17:43
Speaker 2: relationship when it comes to online behavior, and we believe
17:49
Speaker 2: that if you can find an opportunity to set the
17:52
Speaker 2: groundwork there as a young person moves to the different
17:56
Speaker 2: phases of their online behavior, that should something wrong, they're
18:01
Speaker 2: more likely to take a problem to the parent. So
18:04
Speaker 2: some parents express reluctance, and you know, they're claiming that
18:09
Speaker 2: they're too ignorant to understand what's going on.
18:12
Speaker 5: We say to parents, push past all of that. Don't
18:15
Speaker 5: be hung up.
18:16
Speaker 2: On the platform or the technology or anything like that.
18:19
Speaker 2: Get to the heart of what the problem is and
18:21
Speaker 2: get to the heart of you know, what's gone wrong online.
18:25
Speaker 2: So we know that teenage particularly males, are coming forward
18:32
Speaker 2: to parents in the event that they do, and even
18:35
Speaker 2: if that is after the a sextortion threat has actually
18:39
Speaker 2: played out. We really hope that parents can be understanding
18:44
Speaker 2: in that very first disclosure, that they understand the problem
18:50
Speaker 2: for what it is and understand that the child here
18:53
Speaker 2: in this scenario is a victim and that they need support.
19:00
Speaker 4: So don't add to their suffering. Don't rip into them
19:02
Speaker 4: and say what were you thinking? Because now's not the
19:04
Speaker 4: time talk to them about that stuff later.
19:08
Speaker 2: That's exactly right. So I think for many parents it
19:12
Speaker 2: will be very hard to not have that immediate impulse
19:15
Speaker 2: to sort of say, im a goodness, what have you done?
19:18
Speaker 2: And it's very challenging as a parent to hear that.
19:24
Speaker 2: But you'd have to stay very very calm, I think,
19:27
Speaker 2: and we absolutely understand that it can be very distressing
19:33
Speaker 2: not only for the job, but for the parent community
19:35
Speaker 2: as well to know that this has happened to your child.
19:38
Speaker 2: And I think parents have to acknowledge too that this
19:41
Speaker 2: could actually have long term impacts. So regardless of whether
19:45
Speaker 2: or not there was payment, regardless of whether or not
19:48
Speaker 2: the images.
19:48
Speaker 5: Were ultimately shared, this.
19:50
Speaker 2: Could still have long term impacts on a young person.
19:53
Speaker 2: So that's where we moved to the victim support. We
19:58
Speaker 2: absolutely appreciate from a young person's perspective why they would
20:01
Speaker 2: want to hide this behavior and think that they have
20:05
Speaker 2: enough in their toolkit to fix the problem themselves.
20:07
Speaker 5: But as we know, that's absolutely not true.
20:10
Speaker 2: So we're trying to encourage young people to step forward
20:14
Speaker 2: and tell a parent. It's so important that if a
20:17
Speaker 2: young person does do that, that the parent then actually
20:20
Speaker 2: listens and takes action.
20:22
Speaker 5: So part of it is listening and part of it
20:24
Speaker 5: is actually following up and taking action.
20:26
Speaker 2: What's usually happened as well, as you know, the behavior
20:31
Speaker 2: that we've already described is that the offender will tell
20:33
Speaker 2: the young person that what they've done is actually a crime,
20:37
Speaker 2: and that serves as a further way to manipulate the
20:41
Speaker 2: young person to not report, to not tell parents or
20:44
Speaker 2: law enforcement.
20:45
Speaker 5: So we really want to.
20:46
Speaker 2: Emphasize the fact that do not buy into that they
20:51
Speaker 2: have to report it and the young person will not
20:54
Speaker 2: be treated as a criminal, because of course that's a
20:57
Speaker 2: barrier for a young person coming forward if they thought
21:00
Speaker 2: that they would be treated as a criminal.
21:03
Speaker 5: So the offenders will use a range of tactics.
21:05
Speaker 2: They'll use fear, they'll use shame, they'll manipulate a young
21:09
Speaker 2: person they'll make them feel alienated or trapped. So the
21:14
Speaker 2: only way to break that cycle is by getting a
21:16
Speaker 2: parent or an adult some sort involved.
21:19
Speaker 5: Until law enforcement can get.
21:21
Speaker 2: Involved, we don't know whether or not we have to
21:24
Speaker 2: intervene in other legal ways as well, so that's why
21:27
Speaker 2: it's critical.
21:29
Speaker 5: Additionally, as soon as law enforcement can know.
21:31
Speaker 2: The size and shape of the problem, we can actually
21:33
Speaker 2: take action from an investigative standpoint, and this is what
21:36
Speaker 2: we're doing.
21:37
Speaker 5: We're finding ways.
21:38
Speaker 2: To disrupt this behavior at a very high level, and
21:41
Speaker 2: that's all playing out right now, but only because reporting's
21:45
Speaker 2: being driven into us, so that's the criticality of it.
21:50
Speaker 5: But in order for us to actually wrap the support
21:53
Speaker 5: around the victim.
21:54
Speaker 2: And get them access to the support services that they need,
21:58
Speaker 2: and we can't do that without the victim actually revealing
22:01
Speaker 2: this initially to family and then ideally to law enforcement.
22:06
Speaker 2: So from a parent perspective, avoiding blame is so incredibly important,
22:12
Speaker 2: and then working out what more help does that child need.
22:18
Speaker 2: Do they actually need to engage with professional support services
22:22
Speaker 2: as well?
22:23
Speaker 4: My guess is that they shouldn't pay any money. What's
22:26
Speaker 4: your advice around this from what we're.
22:28
Speaker 2: Seeing with this particular crime, we would recommend not paying.
22:33
Speaker 2: We think that's really important because in the scenario you described,
22:37
Speaker 2: even though payment had been made, they demanded more. We believe,
22:41
Speaker 2: and this is consistent with other types of scams as well,
22:44
Speaker 2: that don't send any more money, certainly, don't send any
22:48
Speaker 2: more images or video, even if they continue to threaten,
22:51
Speaker 2: and even if they eventually share it. So essentially that's
22:55
Speaker 2: the worst thing that could have happened, and it did happen,
22:58
Speaker 2: and then you.
22:59
Speaker 5: Deal with that particular problem.
23:01
Speaker 2: But there's no guarantee that if you pay that that
23:04
Speaker 2: wouldn't have happened as you saw in that scenario.
23:07
Speaker 5: So even if.
23:08
Speaker 2: We are complying with demands, there's no impetus or that
23:13
Speaker 2: particular organized crime group to stop.
23:15
Speaker 5: So we would say do not pay.
23:17
Speaker 4: When I hear you say that, Jane, it's fascinating to
23:20
Speaker 4: me because it aligns with a story that I heard
23:23
Speaker 4: just a couple of years ago from a mum of
23:25
Speaker 4: a young lady who was approached online. She was sex staughted,
23:28
Speaker 4: she was threatened once she had shared the image if
23:31
Speaker 4: she didn't pay, that those images were going to be shared.
23:34
Speaker 4: She went to her mum and said, here's what's happened.
23:36
Speaker 4: I've sent a topless image of myself to somebody who's
23:39
Speaker 4: not who they said that they were. She was in tears, devastated,
23:42
Speaker 4: thought it was the end of her life. She also
23:43
Speaker 4: came from an Islamic family from overseas, very very strict family,
23:49
Speaker 4: and she was terrified that the shame that she had
23:52
Speaker 4: brought on to her family was going to literally cause
23:55
Speaker 4: horrendous problems, massive overstated enormous problems. Her mum gave her
24:01
Speaker 4: a big huggen said, we will let everybody know and
24:04
Speaker 4: we will tell them that it wasn't you, that somebody
24:07
Speaker 4: has done some fancy photoshopping and it's not actually you,
24:10
Speaker 4: but we have been targeted. So this mum essentially said,
24:13
Speaker 4: we're gonna lie to the whole family, say that you
24:15
Speaker 4: were targeted.
24:16
Speaker 3: You didn't do it, but they're pretended that.
24:17
Speaker 4: You have, and that will pacify all of the family
24:21
Speaker 4: members who are going to be up in arms. But
24:22
Speaker 4: I thought, what a wise way to respond if the
24:24
Speaker 4: photo gets out there, If the image is out there,
24:27
Speaker 4: just say guess.
24:28
Speaker 3: What it was photoshopped?
24:29
Speaker 4: Or so we have a teenager who did something dumb,
24:33
Speaker 4: and we're going to love our teenager in spite of
24:35
Speaker 4: the dumb thing, It's been a really profound lesson for everybody.
24:38
Speaker 4: And I'm so sorry that you had to see that
24:40
Speaker 4: image and just let it go, don't make a big
24:42
Speaker 4: deal about it.
24:42
Speaker 3: I thought it was great advice.
24:44
Speaker 2: I do think that as well, because basically, the worst
24:47
Speaker 2: thing that you thought was going to happen has happened.
24:50
Speaker 5: Then you stepped through with your parents' support.
24:52
Speaker 2: I just think that's that's the only way to deal
24:54
Speaker 2: with it properly and minimize it's not eliminate, but minimize
24:59
Speaker 2: the harm.
25:00
Speaker 4: I'm listening to everything that you're saying, Jane, and I'm
25:03
Speaker 4: thinking to myself, who does this? Like what kind of
25:07
Speaker 4: what kind of a person actually gets online and does
25:09
Speaker 4: this and tries to cause this level of pain and
25:14
Speaker 4: challenge in a young person's life. It's just it's staggering.
25:17
Speaker 4: Such an important conversation. So for people who want more information,
25:20
Speaker 4: more resources around the things that we've discussed today, because
25:22
Speaker 4: we've really only scratched the surface, whereabouts would you send them?
25:26
Speaker 4: We'll obviously link to it in the show notes, but
25:28
Speaker 4: where would you have them go?
25:31
Speaker 2: We have a response kit that describes the problem and
25:35
Speaker 2: describes how to address it, So we'll absolutely provide you
25:39
Speaker 2: the link to that. That's a really handy document also
25:43
Speaker 2: available online. And you know, there's an opportunity there for
25:48
Speaker 2: parents to educate them more broadly as well about other
25:50
Speaker 2: things that we're seeing. So right now, for us, this
25:53
Speaker 2: is one of the most critical issues that we're facing.
25:57
Speaker 2: We don't have a full picture, but this could actually
26:00
Speaker 2: be linked to youth suicide. That's how seriously we are
26:04
Speaker 2: taking this particular problem right now, and we may never
26:08
Speaker 2: know whether or not this has actually had that type
26:11
Speaker 2: of impact on a young person. So this is why
26:13
Speaker 2: right now, this is where so much of our effort
26:15
Speaker 2: is being placed. But that's not to say there aren't
26:18
Speaker 2: other really serious crimes playing out impacting on young people
26:22
Speaker 2: all the time. So for parents, there's going to be
26:26
Speaker 2: those resources there, there's the ability to report, there's the
26:29
Speaker 2: ability to also protect and prevent as well through this
26:33
Speaker 2: response kit.
26:34
Speaker 4: Okay, Detective Superintendent Jane crossling such an important conversation. Jane
26:40
Speaker 4: is from the Australian Center to Counter Child Exploitation h
26:43
Speaker 4: l CE known as ACE, with THISTRAI and Federal Police.
26:46
Speaker 4: Fascinating conversation, devastating conversation. Really grateful for the work that
26:50
Speaker 4: you do and for the things that you shared with
26:52
Speaker 4: the state to help parents to navigate an increasingly complex
26:56
Speaker 4: parenting world.
26:57
Speaker 3: Thank you so much. Detective Superintendent Jane Crossling.
27:00
Speaker 5: Thank you, Justin.
27:01
Speaker 4: Detective Superintendent Jane Crossling from the Australian Center to Counter
27:05
Speaker 4: Child Exploitation with the Australian Federal Police has been our guests.
27:08
Speaker 3: All of the resources, all of the places you.
27:10
Speaker 4: Can go to get support are available in the podcast
27:13
Speaker 4: show notes today. Thank you so much for listening. I
27:15
Speaker 4: hope it's been a help podcast. As always, the Happy
27:18
Speaker 4: Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media,
27:21
Speaker 4: with Craig Bruce as our executive producer. For more information
27:24
Speaker 4: about making your family happier and protecting them, please check
27:27
Speaker 4: out happy families dot com.
27:28
Speaker 3: Do you