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Post-Midterm Special with Dr. Bryan J. Cook · Trusted Voices

• Erin: Hi, and welcome to the Trusted Voices podcast, hosted by Teresa Valerio Parrot and me, Erin Hennessy. This is our take on the latest news and biggest issues facing higher education. We often welcome leaders who are living, studying, and reporting on these challenges and ask them to share their own experiences and perspectives. We also make time for the two of us to share what we're hearing, seeing, and thinking as we engage with clients, colleagues, and journalists. Teresa Valerio Parrot: Hi, everyone! For only the second time on this podcast, we're foregoing the usual news rundown Erin and I have at the beginning of the episode, because our guest, Dr. Bryan Cook, is here to talk to us about the news. And more specifically, we're going to talk about last week's election and what comes next. Next episode, we'll be back with our traditional format. And until then, it is my honor to introduce you to Dr. Bryan J. Cook. Dr. Bryan J. Cook is the Director of Higher Education Policy in the Work, Education, and Labor Division at the Urban Institute. He is a nationally recognized expert in higher education policy with more than two decades of experience shaping the field. Before joining Urban, Cook held senior leadership positions at the Association of Public and Land Grant Universities, the American Dental Education Association, and the American Council on Education. He led major policy research initiatives, directed data infrastructure reforms, and advised policymakers on issues ranging from federal student aid and accountability to military veterans' educational experiences. Cook's career began in academic advising and student affairs before moving into research and policy analysis. Erin Hennessy: Hey Bryan Cook. Teresa Valerio Parrot: Hi Bryan. Bryan J. Cook: Hey Erin. Hey Teresa, how's it going? Erin Hennessy: We're so excited that you're here. Bryan J. Cook: Not as excited as I am. Erin Hennessy: Yeah. Teresa Valerio Parrot: tell us why. Bryan J. Cook: Because I get to talk to two of my favorite people. So Teresa Valerio Parrot: Well, right back at you, Dr. Cook. we were really excited to just break down for everybody. we had been planning to talk to you last Monday, and then we thought, what happens if the election goes a certain way? We would want to talk to you about something entirely different. So we pushed our conversation by a week because we want to talk to you about TF happened last Tuesday. Bryan J. Cook: That's a good question. Erin Hennessy: Well, I think folks have read a lot about what happened and hopefully by the time this comes out the last few lingering seats will have been sorted and we'll know what the actual margins are. But Teresa Valerio Parrot: Including in Colorado, we're always the last to give to give all of our numbers. Erin Hennessy: And I think folks Bryan J. Cook: Mm-hmm. Erin Hennessy: have probably read what some people are thinking this means or doesn't mean for higher education, but from where you sit and the work that you do, and maybe the place to start is to have you tell us a little bit about the work you're doing. What's gonna get easier for you and what's gonna get harder? Bryan J. Cook: Well, so I guess I will start with some of the work I do. So I am currently the director of higher education policy at the Urban Institute, which is a non partisan, non-advocacy think tank based in Washington, DC. Teresa Valerio Parrot: Mm-hmm. Bryan J. Cook: And our focus is really using data to help inform decision makers, whether that be at the federal, state, institution level, at least within my shop, higher education, Urban covers a lot of areas, tax policy, health policy, employment. So very broad organization in terms of the work we do. But again, my specific area is higher education. And so a lot of the work that we do tends to focus on sort of the three broad areas of higher education, accessibility, affordability, and accountability. So pretty much anything that falls under those buckets, which is most of higher education. Erin Hennessy: Everything. Teresa Valerio Parrot: Exactly, exactly. Bryan J. Cook: I we we tend to we tend to explore. And so in that context, thinking about the impact of the election, I guess for me it was thinking about it in sort of two buckets. So there's obviously been a number of things that have happened under the current administration that have been either via executive order Teresa Valerio Parrot: Mm-hmm. Bryan J. Cook: or regulatory. And those are things that don't fundamentally change as a result of the election. So I think the only question would be whether or not the administration is otherwise occupied with the new Congress and does not have time for as many executive orders and and regulations. but the second piece is the One Big Beautiful Bill. Teresa Valerio Parrot: Yes. Bryan J. Cook: And some of the things that were were passed as part of that, which as you both know were some of the biggest changes to higher education that we've seen legislatively in in quite some time. And obviously there's been a lot of discussion around the changes to the federal student loan program and loan limits, and whether or not there could be any any changes to either the limits or some of the programs that qualify for the higher limits, which would technically to some extent fall under the regulatory component, which was at least in terms of what programs qualify, was part of negotiated rulemaking. But you know, whether or not there is any appetite for any legislative fixes will Erin Hennessy: Mm-hmm. Bryan J. Cook: certainly be interesting. but I think more broadly, just given some of the broader issues that democrats really need to tackle based on what we're hearing from you know a lot of voters it's really about the economy and the economy so Teresa Valerio Parrot: Right. Bryan J. Cook: and so and so the extent to which issues of higher education are going to be a priority over the next two years will also be interesting. I think one of the other things that impacts some of the work that we do at Urban will be monitoring, you know, whether or not there are any changes in staffing at the department. Are Teresa Valerio Parrot: Right. Bryan J. Cook: there departure people who, you know, in this lame duck session decide it's time to move on and do other things? and Teresa Valerio Parrot: Do you think there's the potential at all for restaffing in some of those areas? Because as we know, it's very slim at the department right now. And based on the change in the House and the Senate, do we anticipate that they may need more assistance Bryan J. Cook: Well, it it that's an interesting question because remember, one of the the the objectives of this administration was to shutter the department. Erin Hennessy: Mm-hmm. Teresa Valerio Parrot: Correct. Bryan J. Cook: I I think with the change in Congress that's probably gonna be more difficult, at least to do formally. Teresa Valerio Parrot: Right. Right. Bryan J. Cook: but certainly given a lot of the staffing changes, particularly under Doge with a lot of the rifts. and some of the MOUs that are have moved certain components of the department to other agencies. it'll It'll be interesting to see if there's any desire to staff up. I'm not sure exactly what they would be staffing up to do. well Teresa Valerio Parrot: Maybe the work. Bryan J. Cook: you you you would you would think given a lot of what was passed in the One Big Beautiful Bill Teresa Valerio Parrot: Yes. Bryan J. Cook: Act, that there would be a recognition of we actually need the department to implement a lot of these things, particularly Teresa Valerio Parrot: Right. Agreed. Bryan J. Cook: given that the legislative language talked about the Department of Education or the Secretary of Education. And so so yes, so you would you would think theoretically that yes, there would be a need to ensure that the staff needed to carry out a lot of what was implemented legislatively and regulatory from a regulatory perspective were in place. but again, it's really hard to tell with this administration what what direction they will decide to go as it pertains to the department. Erin Hennessy: I imagine to your point, Bryan, that they've dismantled enough of the structure of the department and moved things, enough things other places. with Congress coming in, a new democratic majority Congress coming in, that they won't be able to move much further in their plan to dismantle. But do you think, I'm asking you to really polish up that crystal ball, if we have a democratic president in two years? do you think the Democratic president recreates the Department of Education? I spend a lot of time wondering about what are things that the Trump administration has done to sort of the structure of the federal government that Teresa Valerio Parrot: Yes. Erin Hennessy: Democrats opposed because it was Trump, but might not oppose the actual, you know, might have been moves that Democrats would have made. And so do we see the Department of Education come back or do we see it stay in its shrunken little current state? Or are Bryan J. Cook: Mm-hmm. Erin Hennessy: we entering this period where Democrats are gonna stand up a department of ed and Republicans are gonna shut it down and we'll just see-saw off forever in perpetuity? Bryan J. Cook: that's a great question. I think one of the things that I've taken away from the past two years is to some extent, all bets are off. So, you know, it I I I one of the things I struggle with is what exactly does the next administration look like, whether Teresa Valerio Parrot: Mm-hmm. Bryan J. Cook: it's a Democratic or Republican president. Because the, you know, obviously Trump has has presided in in such a grand fashion over the Republican Party that I don't think is replicable, you know, with with any other potential president, that I think whether it's Republican or Democrat, it's gonna look different. The the government's going to fundamentally look different. But in terms of the of the department, if I had to guess, I well so For one, I think that yes, there were some things that the administration did that I don't think many people on the right or left would necessarily take issue with. I think the issue is with the way it was done. there have yes, and and to the extent. Teresa Valerio Parrot: Yes. And to the extent yeah, the the concept I get it. Bryan J. Cook: Exactly. So, you know, some of the changes as it pertains to, you know, of the downsizing, some of the restructuring of offices, I I don't think anyone would necessarily say theoretically was was was bad, but there are there should be a much more strategic, nuanced way of of doing it. you know one of the things that I've you know I've been been focused on over the past year that I think is a prime example of that is the the creation of the admissions and consumer transparency supplement, which is, you know, for those who don't know, in the IPEDS universe, there was this addition of a a survey that would in theory bring transparency to the college admissions process by providing more information on who applies, who gets admitted, and who ultimately enrolls because current federal data don't Really have a lot of demographic data on that. So we can't really tell, for example, how the Supreme Court ruling in the Students for Fair Admissions back in 2003 really impacted Erin Hennessy: Right. Teresa Valerio Parrot: Mm, mm-hmm. Bryan J. Cook: certain colleges and universities. And so the idea of having more admissions data in IPEDS that allow us to have a better sense of what students are applying, getting admitted, was An issue that was supported by those who championed equitable access to post-secondary education on the right, on the left, for different purposes. But, you know, everyone wanted to see this. The problem is the way that it was implemented was on a very short timeline Teresa Valerio Parrot: Mm-hmm. Bryan J. Cook: that did not allow colleges and universities to adequately prepare to be able to submit quality data. And because it was such a short timeline from conception to implementation, a lot of the the variables that schools were asked to report on were not clear, they were changing during the process. And Teresa Valerio Parrot: Mm-hmm. Bryan J. Cook: so that's an example of something that individuals on the right and the left would have supported had it been done in the appropriate way. Erin Hennessy: Mm-hmm. Bryan J. Cook: And so I think it's it's somewhat emblematic of a lot of the things that happened at the department where done done in a much more strategic, ideally bipartisan Erin Hennessy: Right. Bryan J. Cook: way, would have been supported, but the way in which a lot of the changes were made really created a shock to to the system and really raises questions about what the next administration will do with the department. Again, I I would suspect that there will be a sort of targeted Rebuild. So not Teresa Valerio Parrot: Mm-hmm. Bryan J. Cook: an effort to take the department back to where it was before the Trump administration, but to say, okay, we have now been given this opportunity to restructure, to shift in ways that actually make the department much more responsive to a lot of the issues that we have identified, both in higher ed and obviously in in K-12. So that would be that would be what I would suspect would would happen. but it's one of those things where we'll have to see. Erin: A big thank you for listening. You can subscribe to Trusted Voices on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts to make sure you never miss an episode. And now, full video episodes are available on YouTube at youtube.com/@TrustedVoicesPodcast. Teresa Valerio Parrot: So I'm gonna shift us a bit. Erin and I have had conversations over the past week about where we're gonna see the biggest difference based on the election last week. Is it gonna be at the federal level? Is it gonna be at the state level? And my take is I think it's gonna be at the state level because of the changes that we saw in some state legislatures and some governorships. And those are the people who get to decide who for some institutions are on the board or how a number of institutions are governed and where they might have limitations or opportunities moving forward. So I'm curious for your take for how you think the elections that we saw that had a shift in red to blue may impact institutions in their state. Bryan J. Cook: Yeah, no, I I agree with you a hundred percent. I think that a lot of the impact is going to be felt more at the state level, particularly because we've seen a lot more activity related to higher education at the state level Teresa Valerio Parrot: Mm-hmm. Bryan J. Cook: in the past few years. again, another example I'll cite is we did some research again around the the Supreme Court ruling on the use of race and admissions. And one of the things that that often gets neglected in the conversation about that impact is all the states that passed anti-DEI legislation that went much further than the Erin Hennessy: Mm-hmm. Teresa Valerio Parrot: Yes. Bryan J. Cook: Supreme Court ruling and actually had greater impact on Teresa Valerio Parrot: Yes. Bryan J. Cook: colleges and universities. And so I I do believe that this change in you know states going from red to blue is going to have a significant impact on higher education. But I think the other piece of this that mirrors the federal level is what what will be the priorities of those states and where does Teresa Valerio Parrot: Mm-hmm, exactly. Bryan J. Cook: higher education fall? Because one thing that that I have learned from watching way too much cable news TV is that, you know, you you only rent your time in office. And so you have to be very strategic about where you use your political capital, particularly coming off of a of of the momentum that Democrats have. And so it'll be interesting to see to what extent that happens in you know, certain certain states, particularly certain red states, where there may be an opportunity now to roll back some things that were passed in in recent years. So yeah, I I I agree. I think that it will be at the, at the state level where we'll see most of the, most of the impacts of what just happened. Teresa Valerio Parrot: as I was looking at articles tied to this before the election and after, most of what I saw governors talking about as it came to higher education wasn't the higher education that we all sort of think of, but instead was, to your point earlier, an economy-based part of higher education. So it was more focused on job preparation and career readiness and preparedness rather than thinking about that for your experience on a campus and some of that expansive nature. So I'll be curious to see from the governors who ran on this more practical side of higher education how they think about the breadth of higher education, including the research side that has hemorrhaged over the past bit. Bryan J. Cook: Yeah, it'll be interesting to see if, if that translates into more funding for community colleges and the types of programs that they Teresa Valerio Parrot: Mm-hmm. Bryan J. Cook: tend to provide. It'll also be interesting to see if you know, if if there is any increased interest in Workforce Pell. we know that there are a lot of states that have kind of taken Teresa Valerio Parrot: Yes, yes. Bryan J. Cook: a a wait and see approach, given all of the sort of requirements that are tied. Workforce Pell, but it may be that if you're an incoming governor or policymaker who is very much interested in you know the ROI on post-secondary education and and particularly as it pertains to certain areas of the workforce, that there may be an interest in in Workforce Pell and trying to provide greater opportunity for individuals to have their short-term credentials covered by grant aid. Erin Hennessy: I was thinking about Abigail Spanberger and the fact that when she came in, you know, she and Mikie Sherrill were were the class of two Bryan J. Cook: Mm-hmm. Erin Hennessy: last year. And when she came in, she very quickly moved to vacate a number of board appointments and then make reappointments. And I don't My spidey sense is that we aren't gonna see something similar with this new crop of governors, mostly because I don't think anybody and this is my, you know, East Coast bias talking, so tell me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any other state got to the point where they were just their their institutions were being so regularly beaten up in the press about governance issues and the direct overreach into curriculum and hiring and all of those things. But I go back. Teresa Valerio Parrot: I think we might have one. We might have one. I saw something also on cable news that was talking about the North Carolina system. And Bryan J. Cook: Mm-hmm. Teresa Valerio Parrot: I will be curious to see if potentially that happens in North Carolina. Bryan J. Cook: heard anything, but Texas could be another Erin Hennessy: Yeah. Could be. Bryan J. Cook: one where it would be interesting to see with all the things they've done and now having a democratic governor, Teresa Valerio Parrot: Right, right. Bryan J. Cook: what what does that look like? Erin Hennessy: Right. Teresa Valerio Parrot: Well, and I talked to a colleague yesterday at the American Marketing Association who was in Texas, and he was saying they're just taking deep breaths right now because Where were they in compliance with some of these things? Were they one of those that kind of acquiesced in advance? Were they one of those that didn't? How were they thinking about what that looks like and now what's going to happen? So he said they're really curious to see from a policy standpoint what happens, and the board is going to be the biggest, he and I were discussing, impact on what happens. And I've also been talking to some presidents that are saying, we have been trying to, you know, work with this set of legislators or the this governor. And now we're having to course correct all the way down to our talking points because we have to reference different types of items and different things so that we're still in the same core area, but you have to message it differently. So I think everybody right now is just trying to breathe through this to figure out what comes next. Erin Hennessy: Yeah, I'll be interested to see how much unwinding actually happens in all of these states. Setting aside the just the potential expense, focusing on all of these folks who ran and really focused on economy, very practical kitchen table issues, and whether or not they will feel like unwinding all of these things in higher education gets to that agenda directly. And so it'll be interesting to see what comes out in terms of board appointments and whether or not there are some thank you for your services, but also what changes in terms of policy. Are we gonna reach back in and tell public institutions? on taxpayer dollars, you've got to once again turn on a dime, restaff these programs, change up these policies. And again, maybe I'm just feeling particularly cynical today. Are we in a number of years back at the other end of the teeter-totter, having to reinstitute all these policies? I don't I don't know what happens. I'll be really interested to see what happens in places like Texas, and in North Carolina and some other places that aren't quite so prominent in terms of higher education news that we've all been following. I just I think it'll be really interesting. I'm watching places like Utah and, we'll we'll see what happens. I I think it's a fascinating time to be sitting atop an institution, but also, my gosh man, like Bryan J. Cook: Well in Teresa Valerio Parrot: Yes, yes. Well, and let's Erin Hennessy: exhausting. Exhausting. Teresa Valerio Parrot: talk about Iowa, which flipped. And they also lost Grassley in the same election, right? Because he retired, not because he was defeated. So if you just think about that momentum shift for Iowa, because it was always a state that we looked at for education because of Senator Grassley, this is a whole new world Bryan J. Cook: Yeah. Teresa Valerio Parrot: in that state. Erin Hennessy: Plus their governor's a formal model. Teresa Valerio Parrot: Yes, that that I didn't know until my Bluesky feed definitely fed me some photos. Yeah. Ha ha ha Bryan J. Cook: Hm. I have not seen those photos, so I don't I don't know if, if I I don't know if I should or if that's something I should just avoid. Teresa Valerio Parrot: ha. Erin Hennessy: No, I think as a man who I know appreciates a good outfit, I think Teresa Valerio Parrot: Yeah. Erin Hennessy: he did a, he did high fashion stuff, wasn't it? Valentino or something. Yeah. Bryan J. Cook: Okay. Well, Teresa Valerio Parrot: Yeah. Like Prada, Bryan J. Cook: wow. I don't know anything about that. Teresa Valerio Parrot: maybe. Yeah. And had really good hair. Erin Hennessy: Yeah. Teresa Valerio Parrot: Yeah. Yeah. Bryan J. Cook: Yeah. Yeah. but but to your to your earlier Erin Hennessy: About the good hair. Teresa Valerio Parrot: Hahaha Well now you have learned something, Dr. Cook. Hahaha. Bryan J. Cook: point, Erin, I I I agree in terms of the appetite. I think the Spanberger, Virginia situation was somewhat unique in that you know, it was an off-year, you know, election Teresa Valerio Parrot: Mm-hmm. Bryan J. Cook: and it was in the midst of all of the activity around higher education with the proposed compact and all these other things. And I think that it was very timely when she came in and did, what she did as it pertains to the to the board, given some of the changes they had just made. But this is a this is an entirely different scenario with the, quote unquote blue tsunami that we've just seen as sort of the national picture and there at least being some attempt to try and unify the Democratic Party around a somewhat you know similar message. So it'll be interesting to see how how all of this ultimately ends up playing out. But yeah, I would be shocked if there are huge changes even at the state level for higher education, given that that's not what was a priority for for voters. Erin Hennessy: Right. Right. Yep. Teresa Valerio Parrot: I do have a question for you around IPEDS and data collection, because I know some of the, knowing that we were looking for longitudinal comparisons, we've had some shake-ups in what IPEDS look like. how are you thinking about IPEDS moving forward? Bryan J. Cook: so there was certainly a lot of concern initially with the you know, the downsizing of the staff at the department and the National Center for Education Statistics. the fact that we had a change in contractors from the longtime contractor who'd run RTI for decades to a new contractor. but But by and large, iPads has has largely stayed intact. There have been some delays in the release of some of the data. There have been some issues with some of the, some of the files that have been been released. but overall, nothing that has raised significant concerns. So I would suspect going forward that it will continue to be the valuable resource that it has been. I know that there are a number of organizations that have initiatives to think through what a refresh of the data that has historically come from the department might look like. There was obviously the one from the department around sort of a rethinking of IES overall But even more specifically, there have been some efforts to try and think through how would we reenvision some of the data collections that come from the department and ensuring their quality and validity, but also their their utility going forward. One of the challenges that I have seen over the past five to ten years is that we're increasingly asking some of these federal data sets to answer questions they were never designed for. And so whether or not under a a new administration, there's an opportunity to go in and start to really rethink, you know, what type of data do we actually need to be able to answer some of the relevant policy questions that are emerging. For me that's one of the big questions. but in terms of IPEDS, there there was some initial concern with some of the things that we had heard and and seen early on in the administration. Teresa Valerio Parrot: Mm-hmm. Bryan J. Cook: but nothing has happened to the point that I'm, you know, overly concerned about where where the state of IPEDS is right now. Teresa Valerio Parrot: And I'm curious as we now have this shift, how many more things will be like that? That we've been so concerned about X, Y, or Z, and it really was a nothing burger. Bryan J. Cook: Hmm. Huh, like what? Say more. Teresa Valerio Parrot: Ha ha. I don't know, Brian. That's why I'm curious what's gonna bubble up. But I do feel like if we go back in time two years, the panic that Bryan J. Cook: Mm-hmm. Teresa Valerio Parrot: we all had about everything, and then you go to January a year ago, the panic that we had Bryan J. Cook: Mm. Okay. Teresa Valerio Parrot: about everything, I feel like that constant fear Bryan J. Cook: Mm-hmm. Teresa Valerio Parrot: and concern about what could be. I think we're now going to be at a point where people can come in and either make sure that it didn't happen or course correct if it did happen. But I'm not sure all of what we've been afraid of. Bryan J. Cook: Mm-hmm. Teresa Valerio Parrot: has actually happened, but some of it's really been much more like the stuff that we are scared of in the night that goes bump in the dark. Bryan J. Cook: I think there are two ways to sort of view that. In terms of the things that have happened within the department. So, you know, there was obviously concern about the shutting down or certainly attempted shutdown of the department, which, you know, at least in the formal sense has not happened and with the change in Congress does not appear likely to happen. there was concern about the availability of certain federal data. With the, would this administration stop making IPEDS publicly available since it's not required by Teresa Valerio Parrot: Mm-hmm. Bryan J. Cook: law to be publicly accessible, which never happened. Teresa Valerio Parrot: Mm-hmm. Bryan J. Cook: And so yes, you know, in terms of those types of things, there was concern that I would say was legitimate concern. you know, they didn't end up coming to fruition, but I don't think that really negates the the reality of the concern given that we didn't know what this administration would do. Because we certainly seen them do a lot of things Teresa Valerio Parrot: Mm. Bryan J. Cook: that we didn't really think was possible or legal. but they were done. And so I think those are those are legit. But but the Teresa Valerio Parrot: Well yeah. Bryan J. Cook: the things that were in the One Big Beautiful Bill that people are concerned about. Erin Hennessy: Yeah. Bryan J. Cook: I think there's legitimate concern because we don't know what the impact is going to be. Unlike, through a a a comprehensive higher education bill Teresa Valerio Parrot: Yes, yes. Bryan J. Cook: like reauthorization of the higher education act, where there is usually an opportunity to do a significant amount of analysis on the potential impacts of policy, that didn't happen with this. So we don't know what the elimination of grant Teresa Valerio Parrot: Mm-hmm. Bryan J. Cook: Plus loans is going to be. We don't know what the loan limits for grad students will be, or the new limits on parent plus. Teresa Valerio Parrot: Mm-hmm. Bryan J. Cook: We don't know how the do no harm accountability measure is actually going to play out. so I think in those areas, there's still some Erin Hennessy: Mm-hmm. Bryan J. Cook: legitimate reason to be concerned about its impact because we honestly don't know. And it may be a couple years before we really have a a good sense of how this, you know, ultimately will impact students. And unlike executive orders or regulations, this is legislative. So if it needs a fix, like Congress has got to pass a bill, I don't know that that's going to get any Erin Hennessy: Yeah. Bryan J. Cook: easier over the next Teresa Valerio Parrot: Mm. Bryan J. Cook: couple of years. Teresa Valerio Parrot: I agree. Erin Hennessy: You raise an interesting point there, Brian, and I wanted to ask, it it sounds like Protect College Sports Act is dead until the next Congress. Are there other things that are out there that are sufficiently through the process that you see a Republican administration or a Republican led Congress trying to hustle through in the in the lame duck that might impact higher ed? Obviously would we have to deal with the funding issue, and so that impacts on that level, but are there other things? Bryan J. Cook: nothing that I can think from a higher education perspective that they're gonna try and hustle through. I had the great pleasure of talking or well talking to and hearing from one of our good friends and former colleagues, Jon Fansmith, at the College Erin Hennessy: That guy Bryan J. Cook: Board Forum Yeah, that guy, last week. And you know, one of the things Erin Hennessy: Yeah. Bryan J. Cook: that that he highlighted was just the the challenge of even getting members of Congress together for a vote in the short period of time that they have before the Erin Hennessy: Yeah. Bryan J. Cook: winter recess. Teresa Valerio Parrot: Mm-hmm. Bryan J. Cook: And so, given the challenge of getting people in for vote, particularly those who are now out of office in a very short period of time, you know, it anything that there is pressing to get done, I don't think higher education is a big piece of that. So Erin Hennessy: Yeah. Teresa Valerio Parrot: Yeah. Bryan J. Cook: so I would I I can't imagine now, obviously, come the next Congress, there are gonna be some major things to address, you know, like the Pell shortfall. Like that's kind of important to address. Teresa Valerio Parrot: Mm-hmm. Bryan J. Cook: But in terms of this lame duck session, I'm not sure that there's much, at least at least that I'm aware of, that I'm overly concerned they're gonna try and rush through. Erin Hennessy: Do you think in the next Congress will finally, finally, finally get an HEA reauthorization? Teresa Valerio Parrot: Ha ha ha I know where you're going. And will it get signed? Erin Hennessy: yeah. You and I would not be good Terry Hartle ACE alumni if we didn't raise the question of Bryan J. Cook: Ha ha. Erin Hennessy: HEA reauthorization. Bryan J. Cook: No, we would not. Teresa Valerio Parrot: And Eric Kelderman, I bet, is waiting for your answer. Bryan J. Cook: So for, I would say from 2015 until 2022, just about every higher education conference, meeting, speaking engagement I was involved in, you know, we would jokingly throw out the question, okay, when will we have a higher education reauthorization? Since then, my take has been HEA is basically dead. Erin Hennessy: Yeah. Bryan J. Cook: I I just, I Teresa Valerio Parrot: Yeah. Bryan J. Cook: don't, I I I can't envision a scenario where at least any time in the near future where we'll get a reauthorization. If you think about all the higher education legislation that's been passed over the past ten years, it's all been through reconciliation, or or some other piecemeal Erin Hennessy: Yeah. Do you think we get, Teresa Valerio Parrot: Mm-hmm. Bryan J. Cook: approach. Erin Hennessy: do you think we get a new overarching bill of some sort? Do we start from scratch? Teresa Valerio Parrot: Oof. Erin Hennessy: I know. Isn't that a terrible thought? Bryan J. Cook: it would be somewhat hard to envision given how much, particularly Title IV, is embedded in HEA. So Erin Hennessy: Yeah, yeah. Bryan J. Cook: you you can't really create a new one unless you're just gonna have two and what joy would it be to have two higher education bills that you have to reauthorize? Erin Hennessy: Right. Teresa Valerio Parrot: I yeah, but not impossible because this is higher education. Bryan J. Cook: Why it right. Not not certainly not impossible or implausible. but I don't know what that looks, I guess so the fact that you have a Democratic House and Senate and you have a president who says they're willing to work with Democrats take that for what it's worth Erin Hennessy: Come on. Bryan J. Cook: right but I mean I guess Again, I I think the next two years, I don't think higher education gets a big seat at the table given all the other pressing things that have to happen. In a world where in 2028 Democrats retain control of the House and Senate and win a presidential election, could there be an opportunity at that point? Yes. I think it will depend on where the state of the country is, what things have happened over the next two years that have to be addressed in the first two years of the next administration, will obviously all be a factor. But but assuming that there are no major issues that a new administration will have to take on, I I guess there could be an opportunity to reauthorize HEA in that window but that's about the only opportunity I would see anytime soon. And it would have to be that scenario. If we have divided government, Erin Hennessy: Yeah. Bryan J. Cook: I don't know that we get an HEA. Teresa Valerio Parrot: Do you remember those beautiful times when we used to say, nobody mentioned higher education in the State of the Union? Nobody mentioned higher education as a major topic for this country. Nobody mentioned, and now we say those are beautiful times, but at the time we were like, wow, wouldn't it be great if somebody talked about us? Bryan J. Cook: Careful what you wish for. Erin Hennessy: Yeah, buddy. Teresa Valerio Parrot: Careful what you wish for. Bryan J. Cook: Mm-hmm. Teresa Valerio Parrot: On that note, any final thoughts from either of you of what we should be looking for or what's coming next? Erin Hennessy: I think Bryan Cook and I should be looking for a lunch date very soon. Bryan J. Cook: Yes, which Teresa Valerio Parrot: Yes, said Bryan J. Cook: would be a lot easier if you still live in the D.C. but I'm not, I'm not gonna hold that against Erin Hennessy: That's true. Well Bryan J. Cook: you. I'm gonna let that go. But yes, we certainly need to make that. Erin Hennessy: absence absence makes the heart grow fonder. Bryan J. Cook: And I am extremely fond, so funny 'cause I've had more I've had more lunches with Teresa than I've had with you in the past Erin Hennessy: I know. Teresa Valerio Parrot: That's correct. Ha ha ha. Erin Hennessy: it's because I left you. Whereas, whereas Bryan J. Cook: You did, and my heart. Erin Hennessy: you never had Teresa there in the district and I was there but I left Bryan J. Cook: Mm-mm. Yes you Erin Hennessy: you. Bryan J. Cook: did. My heart is still intact. Teresa Valerio Parrot: I knew him back when we both were, we were young and both had dark hair. I would love, Brian, at some point to get an update from you because you work on things like access and talking about transparency in admissions and in financial aid. And you have a high school senior. So at the end of all of this, I would love to hear your consumer story about your adventure as well. Bryan J. Cook: wow. You know, it it's interesting. I Erin Hennessy: That'll be a whole nother episode. Bryan J. Cook: know, but just but Teresa Valerio Parrot: Yes. Bryan J. Cook: just but just briefly I can share that I've been to a couple meetings in the past couple months and the thing that I have pointed out to people is you know you work in higher education like I have for 20 plus years and you know the ins and outs and the intricacies of higher education. And then you get to the process of working with your child to apply to colleges, and you realize how little you actually know and how irrelevant Erin Hennessy: Yeah. Teresa Valerio Parrot: Yes. Bryan J. Cook: much of what you know is in the admissions process. And Teresa Valerio Parrot: Yes. Bryan J. Cook: what makes that even more challenging is to have a wife who says, Well you work in higher education. You should know this. Teresa Valerio Parrot: Ha ha ha. Bryan J. Cook: Or even worse, right, Erin Hennessy: You do this, Bryan J. Cook: or even worse, well can't you make some phone calls and and get her into this school? Teresa Valerio Parrot: A Erin Hennessy: Brian Cook would never. Brian Cook also couldn't, but Brian Cook would never. Bryan J. Cook: let me sit you down and and explain to you exactly what it is I do and what Erin Hennessy: Ha ha ha Teresa Valerio Parrot: Ha ha. Bryan J. Cook: my role is in this big gigantic industry we call higher education. Although what has been interesting is because Teresa Valerio Parrot: It's humbling. Bryan J. Cook: of the work I've been doing on admissions and access over the past couple of years, I have spent a lot of time with enrollment managers at a lot of the highly selective institutions and some of the even moderately selective institutions. And that just made it even more confusing about admissions. I Erin Hennessy: Yeah. Bryan J. Cook: mean it really did. And so so yeah it has been an an eye opening process. I you know filled out a FAFSA for the first time ever. As much as I studied it, as much as I've looked Teresa Valerio Parrot: Yes. Bryan J. Cook: at it, as much as I know about it, first time I've filled one out, at least in god, probably 35-40 years. And that was a very different FAFSA. This one, very easy. Erin Hennessy: It's I was gonna say it's shorter now, huh? Bryan J. Cook: man, it it yes. A lot different than the Erin Hennessy: Thank you, Lamar. Bryan J. Cook: one I had to fill out. Yeah, thank you, Lamar. Yes. Teresa Valerio Parrot: Well, good luck to you, good luck to your child, Bryan J. Cook: Thank you. Teresa Valerio Parrot: and may the process be as transparent as possible. Bryan J. Cook: Yeah. Erin Hennessy: Thanks Thanks, Bryan. Bryan J. Cook: Thank you both. Teresa Valerio Parrot: Thank you for joining us. Thank you for your wisdom. And as always, we adore you. Bryan J. Cook: I adore you more. Erin: Thank you for joining us for this episode. Links and transcripts are available at TVPcommunications.com. You can contact us with your feedback or guest suggestions at TrustedVoices@TVPcommunications.com. Follow Trusted Voices wherever you get your podcasts, and until next time, thanks to Teresa Valerio Parrot, DJ Hauschild and Savannah Parrot for a great episode. And thank you for listening.