Latest / The Paul Barron Crypto Show / Ethereum Fusaka Upgrade This Week!🔥BEAST MODE Coming 🚨Justin Drake ETH Foundation

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Ethereum Fusaka Upgrade This Week!🔥BEAST MODE Coming 🚨Justin Drake ETH Foundation · The Paul Barron Crypto Show

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Let's dive into beast mode today.
• 0:01
  Speaker 2: We're going to be looking at Ethereum and the Fusaka
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: upgrade that is pending. It's all going to be broken
• 0:06
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• 0:21
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• 0:25
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  Speaker 1: Try it out.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: I think you guys might be intrigued with it. And
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: they've been a longtime sponsor of our channel supporting us. So,
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: as you guys know, Fusaka is on the UH. I
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: guess we'll call it on the beginning of a new era.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: And what we're talking about here, of course, is the
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: next Ethereum upgrade. If you don't know what that means, well,
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: we thought let's bring in one of the experts out there,
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: and of course that is Justin Drake to break it
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: all down.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Justin, welcome back into the show.
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, thanks for having me.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: I was on your Twitter account and I love the
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: description here the bitcoin security researcher.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: That's a good one.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: I love you got to keep a little tongue in
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: cheek there, Justin, So this is a good one. Give
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: me a framework of where Fusaka is. Are we on
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: par for getting this done by December third? What are
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: the things we can expect?
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: Yees, So, Fusaka is indeed scheduled for December third, and
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: there's several things that we can expect. The first one
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: is some scalability improvements, most notably for the l twos.
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: We will be increasing by more than a factor of
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: two the blob capacity. So that's the data availability through
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: an grade called peer DAS. The DAA stands for data
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: availability Sampling. It's some cryptographic magic in order to safely
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: scale the l twos. We also have a bunch of
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: EAPs to help scale d L one and just a
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: few days ago we actually increased the gas limit from
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: forty five million to sixty million.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: What would be the most important part of FUSAKA that
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: we really need to pay attention to both as eth
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: enthusiasts as crypto investors. What makes the most sense for this.
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: So Fusaka is made out of nine EPs and EPs
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: and the Theoreum Improvement Proposal. Five of those are related
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: to scaling, and most notably Peodesk. That's probably the headliner.
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: We also have two other exciting airps. The first one
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: has to do with support for a new curve called
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: sec P two, five, six or one, and this is
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: technical mumbo jumbo for hardware wallets, so we'll have better
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: support for hardware wallets infhones, so it means a more
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: secure user experience. We also have another EAP, which is
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: also a technical called the Terministic Proposal look Ahead, but
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: that basically gives US infrastructure to build pre confirmations on
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: L one. So today, if you want to do an
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: L one transaction, you have to wait the twelve second slot.
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: We have pre confirmations coming hopefully soon.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: So that's even more speed when you look at this
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: kind of speed, this kind of throughput Now with FUSAKA,
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: and we'll talk about the next upgrade coming and what
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: that matters. But I'm kind of curious, how does this
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: apply to things like payment systems, whether this is credit card,
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: you could look at Visa, et cetera that have large throughputs.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: Does this enable the web three.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: The next Internet of Value kind of moving in that
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: direction to kind of go at these light speeds now through.
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: For SOCCA, not yet unfortunately. So the fruit of that
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: we have right now is about two point five mega
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: gas per second and the average transaction is one hundred
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: thousand guests, so we're talking about twenty five transactions per second,
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: roughly speaking. And there's another issue with payments, which is
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: the twelve second slot is a bit too long from
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: a u X standpoint. So a lot of the payments
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: I expect to happen on the L twos, where they
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: can already support hundreds, if not thousands of transactions per second,
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: and they have much faster confirmation times on the order
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: of hundreds of millionseconds.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: So okay, so within that is building on L one's
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: practical I mean, with those kind of demands, I was
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: just looking at Italics tweet right here. Do you feel
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: like that's going to be the case or do you
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: feel like L two's are still going to have a
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: large contribution to what's happening on their theorem.
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so my vision for the endgame, if you will,
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: is ten million transactions per second on all of the
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: L twos combined, and ten thousand transactions per second on
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: the L one. Now ten thousand transactions per second, there's
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: a good start for high value transactions. It's about zero
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: point one transaction per day per human. So if you're
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: doing a very high value transaction maybe once a week
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: or so, the L one is going to be the
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: place for that. We're already seeing the L one being
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: the center for defile liquidity for example, it's where all
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: of the loner origination on AVE.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: Has right, Glamsterdam is the next upgrade. What does Fusaka
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: not do that Glamsterdam will do?
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: Can you give me some insights on this?
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: So I think for the next few forks, we're going
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: to have a focus on increasing scalability, both for the
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: L two's and for d L one, So it's going
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: to be more of the same. GLAMs to them does
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: have one specific headliner called EPBS, which is a way
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: to remove some of the trust assumptions that we have
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: in the so called MeTV pipeline, So this is just
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: a technical term for the process of taking transactions and
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: forming blocks. Right now, there's a few centralized entities called relays.
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: The idea is to provide infrastructure so that in the
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: worst case, we don't have to rely so much on
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: these relays and also epbs. What it gives us is
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: so called pipelining, which basically buys us a bit more
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: time in order to process transactions, which in and of
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: itself should help with scalability of the l one as well.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: Is that going to open things up for the institutional
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: capital to take a look at ethereum, maybe in some
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: new ways.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: What would be your analysis of that.
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: I think a large subset of applications need some form
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: of predictability as to what will happen in the future
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: so that they can start planning ahead for the next
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: few years. My hope is that we can set up
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: automatic gas limit increases at roughly three x per year.
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: There's a specific proposal from Dankrat which increases the gas
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: limit automatically over a period of four years, so that
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: would be three to the power four, which is roughly
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: one hundred x increase. That amount of predictability will allow
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: institutions who are not doing a crazy amount of fruit
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: but not payments, but other lower fruit put applications to
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: plan ahead.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: So that's going to open it up, I would think,
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: you know, when you look at like you mentioned, especially
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: on high value transactions. The key there, of course is
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: if we see mass adoption. So back to your point scalability,
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: you feel like, what's going to happen with Lampstrom is
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: that going to be required to see eth at scale,
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: especially with Wall Street coming into the market at the
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: pace in which they're coming in.
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: So what I'm hoping can happen is that, in addition
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: to the incremental upgrades that we're doing every six months
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: now with hart Falks, we can start thinking of doing
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: more ambitious things in parallel. And there's this whole effort
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: that I'm involved with called zk EVMS or snockification of
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: DL one, and that is a whole new paradigm for
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: processing blockchains where you verify short mathematical or cryptographic proofs
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: of validity of the blocks as opposed to re executing transactions.
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: And this opens up orders of magnitude improvements, and you
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: can think of it in some sense as being a
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: parallel track to all core deevs ACD, which is what
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: does the incremental upgrades. Quite recently at depth Connect we
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: did this demo where we showed that real time proving,
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: meaning the ability to provide a proof at every single
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: block before the next block arrives, is something that can
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: be achieved at L one, and this will lay the
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: foundations for dramatically increasing the gas limit to what I
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: hope we can eventually reach, which is one giga gas
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: per second the ten thousand tps and I'm hopeful.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: I see, I'm looking at eth proofs here. Race to
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: prove theorem in real time? Is this similar to what
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: you're talking about right now?
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: That's exactly it. You can see here you have proofs
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: arriving in real time for every single slot. The proofs
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: are being downloaded in your browser and verified locally. And
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: what you can what you should imagine is a very
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: weak device, for example a phone or laptop being able
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: to process every single film block even if the gas
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: limit is extremely large.
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: So, based on this, would this be a threat to
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: Solana or even Suite of in terms of how they're
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: managing transactions versus what you're talking about now.
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So Solana processes on average one thousand user transactions
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: per second. What I'm hoping we can do is ten
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: thousand transactions per second, so ten times Solana over a
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: period of six years, incrementally increasing three x per year.
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: But I think the real challenge with Solana is that
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: it's going to hit a bottleneck with its monolithic approach.
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: You can only process so many transactions on a single server.
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: You have to scale horizontally, and this is what blobs
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: and dataty sampling is all about.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, what's more important right now in terms
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: of versus volume?
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: What would you say.
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: You mean in the context of stable coins.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, stable coin velocity versus volume.
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think both metrics are very important, but
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: one is easier to fake than the other. So if
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: you have free transactions, it's very easy to fake velocity.
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: On the other hand, total value locked is something that's
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: very very hard to fake. And here's a very striking statistic.
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: There's one hundred billion dollars of USDT so tever on Ethereum,
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: there's two billion dollars on Solana, So there's a fifty
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: x delta there, and that really shows that there's very
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: strong network effects on ethereum for stable coins and virtually
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: not for Solana.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: Why are we seeing this then?
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: What the chart I'm showing you right here is just
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: the ability for Solana to outpace most of the rest
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: of the market in terms of stable coin movement right now?
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: Is this what you're talking about?
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: So I'm talking about total value locked, which.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: Yes, all right, versus transactions.
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: Yes, transactions can be essentially faked. When you have free,
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: free transactions, you can take a million dollars and you
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: can just keep protecting them at infinitum, and that will
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: that will pump your numbers. And Solana has a history
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: of pumping numbers with.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: Which you're essentially that this is being faked right now.
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: It could be. There have been cases over the years
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: where provably Solana was faking its numbers. I haven't looked
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: personally into the most recent ones, but I wouldn't be
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: surprised if those are indeed effect.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: All right, we got to talk about security also, the
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: scenario and attack vector that could be coming from China.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: China is doubling down on crypto band now after some
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: new you know activity, They're probably going to continue to
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: go in after Bitcoin in the coming years. What is
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: your your assessment of this in terms of a nation
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: state starting to decide, hey, we're not going the route.
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: We've gone the rout of gold as our asset. Obviously
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: the United States has gone the rout of digital assets,
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: especially with the Genius Act in play. What would you say,
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: could could be a problem here?
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So the fundamental problem is that when you zoom out,
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: bitcoin is not secure against the most powerful nation states.
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: And the reason is that the total budget to permanently
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: fifty one percent attack bitcoin is on the order of
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: ten billion dollars and on the order of ten gigawatts
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: of power. Now, if you look at China specifically, just
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: in twenty twenty four, they deployed two hundred gigawatts of
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: solar and so that's that's twenty x the amount of
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: power to attack bitcoin. And for them, ten billion dollars
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: is nothing. It's less than ten percent of their annual
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: defense budgets. Now, why would China be interested in attacking bitcoin? Well,
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: part of the reason is that they are structurally short bitcoin. Right,
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: They've prevented their popular from holding bitcoin, from trading it,
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: et cetera. And so the rest of the world stands
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: to gain relative to China, and so in some sense,
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: China has an incentive if Bitcoin were to become successful,
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: to go attack it.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: I see, okay, and I think that's the thing. You
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: got to look at the attack vectors. Obviously China has
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: gone the route of gold. This of course is one
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: of the contention issues that we're faced right now. But
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: with your attack vector thesis, you're looking at someone like
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: a black Rock. Most of Wall Street all investing in
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: terms of ETFs and Bitcoin. You've got strategy which is,
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: you know, doubling down and continuing to reposition now holding
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: i think three percent, on track for over the next
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: decade to possibly hold five percent of bitcoin. And that's
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: with some of the bitcoin scenarios that play out in
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: terms of people losing their keys. You know that would
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: never be achieved again. So it starts to reduce the amount.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: Would that not position at least mostly the US in
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: a position of defense against what potentially could happen here
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: with China.
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so you could imagine potentially the US government stepping
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: in with its military potentially to go defend bitcoin. But
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: in my opinion, that means that bitcoin has lost its neutrality.
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: It's no longer a credibly neutral global money. It's a
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: US money at that point right now. One of the
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: things that we've seen with you ETFs and Sailor and
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: the like is a dramatic decrease in transactions on the
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: bitcoin chain, which has led to a dramatic decrease in
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: transaction fees. So yesterday we saw two bitcoin of transaction fees,
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: which is definitely not enough to go secure bitcoin, and
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: the issuance is decaying exponentially. It's about two hundred times
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: larger than fees, so fees represent only half a percent
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: unless fees grow dramatically over the next ten years, I
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: don't see how bitcoin can secure itself with two bitcoin
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: per day.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that's on the current status. You know.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: Obviously I'm not arguing for or against. But if you
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: look at market demand right now, which has been I
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: would say moderate at best, because we haven't really seen
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: a market blowoff top and definitely not Wall Street jumping
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: and outside the ETFs, would market demand not increase that
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: capacity in terms of.
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: Reput Yes, So the transaction fees are at a fifteen
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: year low. Now, what tends to happen, You're right, is
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: that during ball markets there's more interest and therefore transaction
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: fees go up. But you know, bitcoin needs to be
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: secure even in bad markets. And another observation is that
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: as the price of bitcoin increases, it's harder and harder
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: to generate BTC denominated fees. And so what I expect
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: what happened is actually the two bitcoin per day to
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: decrease over time if the price of bitcoin was to increase.
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: And one of the fee cs is that transaction fees
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: are going to replace issuance after every successive happening. But
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: what we're seeing is that the transaction fees are happening
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: faster than issuance, meaning that BTC transaction fees are decreasing
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: more than a factor of two every four years.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: Interesting, all right, Well you take that and you also
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: look at quantum, and I know many people would say,
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: I don't know if quantum is even Yes, a lot
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: of people would say yes, there are AI advancements that
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: we've seen, but now quantum potentially could be powerful enough
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: in a few years. Some people say this could happen
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: even faster with the acceleration of it.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: What do you think do you think this is a
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: risk right now?
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: So my date is twenty thirty two for when we'll
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: have a cryptographically relevant quantum computer, basically a quantum computer
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: that can break our cryptography, so we have seven years
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: roughly to upgrade. I do think it's a threat, and
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: I think it's more of a threat to change that
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: can't upgrade easily. Example, Bitcoin Etheroreum has a whole R
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: and D process that has been in operation for several years.
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: I think where the number one in the market in
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: terms of potential solutions. I am a little bit worried
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: about bitcoin specifically because it's not just a technical problem,
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: it's also a social one. The reason is that a
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: very large fraction of the bitcoin keys have been lost,
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: and so if you take Satochi's coins, that represents about
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: five percent of the circulating supply. The community is in
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: the conundrum either they let quantum computer steal those one
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: million coins, in which case that's very problematic for a
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: global me or you know, they will burn Satochi's coins.
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: But that's also problematic because bitcoin is meant to represent
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: strong property rights.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: If it is capable, it would go after a lot
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: of these dormant wallets that are either untouched or incapacitated
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: right now, which could present a big issue because that's
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: a lot of bitcoiners kind of argue that is that
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: that's lost coin that will never be recovered unless we
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: were to see a true quantum cryptographic solution in play.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: So interesting analysis there. Beyond that, I want to go
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: to a couple other points right now, This, of course
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: is in general when you kind of look at why
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: aren't we only seeing First of all, we only see
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: a couple of stage twos most of everything Stage one?
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: Why only stage two L twos in terms of decentralized
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: L twos?
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: Right, So building a stage two L two is very
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: difficult because you're putting a lot of pressure on the
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: so called proof system. So either that's a proof game
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: in the case of optimistic roll ups, or it's a
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: snock in the case of a ZK roll up. If
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: there's bugs in these systems, which there are, then you know,
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: stage two roll ups are arguably more exposed from a
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: security standpoint then other roll ups Stage one and Stage
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: GERO that can lean more aggressively on their security councils.
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: Now we have this proposal called native ulups which addresses
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: the core of the problem, which is the bugs in
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: these proof systems, and it basically allows you to inherit
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: the same proof system as d L one, so you
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: have an exact copy of the EVM, and if the
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: L one is secure, then your L two will also
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: be secure and you won't need a security council to
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: intervene in case of a bug, and you also won't
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: need governance in order to stay in sync with the
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: L one every time the L one does a hart
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: fork which changes the EVM.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm looking at the two champions of the markets
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: right now. When it comes to what most investors are
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: looking at. You look at Tom Lee, you know, I
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: would say he is pretty much the ethereum champion out there,
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: even though he's also a bitcoin I won't say he's
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: a bitcoin investor, but he also has made many calls
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: around bitcoin. Then you have Michael Saylor, who is just,
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: you know, always on bitcoin and never ending bitcoin. Which
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: one do you think does a better job in terms
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: of getting the masses educated on how to invest in
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: crypto in general?
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: If you had a pick one, Yeah.
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: I mean I would obviously pick Tom Lee. I think
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: the thing with Michael Saylor is that he is very
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: narrow minded in the sense that he's only looking at
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: one thing, which is bitcoin, and within bitcoin, he's only
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: talking about the good things. You never see him talking
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: about the security issue. You never really see him talking
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: about quantum. On the other hand, you know, Tom Lee,
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: as you said, he came first from bitcoin, that in
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: of itself shows some openness.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well I would agree with that.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: I think the fact that he has looked at, you know,
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: two variations of crypto has started to make his way
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: onto the theorym ecosystem, obviously with what he's doing with
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: BM and R.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: For sure.
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: I've publicly challenged Michael Saylor several times to have an
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: open debate on bitcoin security. He has every time ignored me,
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: and so I'm hoping to use this show all right
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: again reiterate that I'd like to debate him on another
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: Chobe is, in my opinion, the number one issue in
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: the long term survival of them of bitcoin. That one.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, there you go.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: Another challenge coming in from the Theorem Foundation with Justin
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: Drake there, Michael Saylor.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: Hopefully if you're.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: Listening, we'll be happy to host that too, you know,
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: if you guys want to bring it on here or
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: co host it with another pro bitcoiner, you know, someone
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: like a Mark Moss. I mean, he's very friendly with
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: our network. There's several out there that I think would
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: easily jump at this, So that would be a possibility. Sailor,
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: if you're listening, hopefully you'll take us up on that. Hey,
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: justin I want to talk about you mentioned you're mentioning security,
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: and this is another thing that we continue to look
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: at other chains out there that claim to have large
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: amounts of security. One of them, because of most recent
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: is Cardono. Can you give me any insight to what's
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: happening over there?
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: I don't follow Cardona like. All I know is that
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: they had a consensus bug recently which caused a chain split.
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: That's all I know.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: One other question before we get you out of here,
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: and that of course, the last time we saw an
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: upgrade Pectra, there was the kind of market move that
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: we experienced. Obviously, eth is now depressed slightly with based
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: on where we are in market condition. What's your anticipation
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: or do you have an anticipation of how it might
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: move based on Fusaka releasing this week.
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: What I have found as a researcher over the last
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: eight years is that in the short term, my work
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: and various upgrades or various announcements have no significant impact
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: on the market. What gives me, solis I guess is
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: that over long periods of time, over five ten years,
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: we're trying to build something that's extremely meaningful. And my
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: thesis is that blockchains are winner take most, and that's
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: Eftherium is in a position to gobble up all the
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: incentive value.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: There you go.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: I like that one, winner take most. Justin has been
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: great having you back on to get an update on this.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: As we start to see the great go and play
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: with Usaka and going into the next one being glamstered in,
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: We'll be watching your work very closely. So thanks for
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: coming in today. We appreciate it.
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: Pol.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: All right, guys, you know what to do if you're
• 23:24
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• 23:27
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• 23:27
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• 23:30
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• 23:32
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• 23:34
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• 23:37
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• 23:40
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• 23:43
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• 23:45
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• 23:47
  Speaker 2: catch you next time, right here on The Paul Baron Show.