Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / MADDIE SOTO, 13, BODY FOUND: WAS HOME PREGNANCY TEST MISSING?

Transcript

MADDIE SOTO, 13, BODY FOUND: WAS HOME PREGNANCY TEST MISSING? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Maddie Soto just thirteen years old.
0:11
Speaker 2: Her body found tonight was a home pregnancy test missing.
0:18
Speaker 1: I meansy Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank you for
0:21
Speaker 1: being with us.
0:22
Speaker 3: I sent them to sleep upstairs in the bathroom of
0:24
Speaker 3: the guest bedroom, but I could get a good night sleep.
0:26
Speaker 3: I think we need to get you a lawyer. But
0:28
Speaker 3: that was me assuming that you guys had the wrong guy,
0:31
Speaker 3: not that he had done all this to her. I
0:34
Speaker 3: don't know why I wasn't thinking him. I believed the
0:36
Speaker 3: factual stuff, but I didn't want to believe that he
0:38
Speaker 3: had done anything equal to her.
0:40
Speaker 4: Would you decide the self is fine?
0:43
Speaker 3: It's not fine. I look back now, I'm just like
0:45
Speaker 3: he was flying, he was baking.
0:48
Speaker 4: You worse pregnant? Have you ever found a pregnancy test
0:52
Speaker 4: at home?
0:52
Speaker 3: I have two underneath the kitchen to the bathroom, saying,
0:55
Speaker 3: but I have to sleep if there's the there?
0:58
Speaker 5: What color shirt and pants was she last sheen wearing
1:02
Speaker 5: hold on? Let me ask.
1:05
Speaker 3: So we'll kloch sure, and what was she lost wearing.
1:12
Speaker 6: Hold on?
1:13
Speaker 5: We're finding out, okay?
1:15
Speaker 7: And then how long has it been those since you
1:16
Speaker 7: guys have last seen her.
1:18
Speaker 8: Since this morning.
1:19
Speaker 5: She was dropped off at school this morning and apparently
1:24
Speaker 5: she never showed up.
1:25
Speaker 3: We called everyone we knew.
1:27
Speaker 2: No one has seen her pregnancy test, missing mommy hasn't
1:33
Speaker 2: checked her daughter, missing then found dead. Joining me an
1:38
Speaker 2: all star panel, But first to Hannah Mackenzie joining us
1:42
Speaker 2: anchor and investigative reporter Fox thirty five Orlando.
1:45
Speaker 1: Hannah, thank you for being with us.
1:47
Speaker 2: Could you explain to the non legal eagles out there
1:51
Speaker 2: that don't know who that was talking?
1:54
Speaker 1: Who is Jennifer Soto?
1:56
Speaker 7: So Jennifer Soto is Maddy Soto's mother, And what is
2:00
Speaker 7: so alarming about all of these hours worth of investigative
2:04
Speaker 7: evidence and interviews that we've been seeing is this is
2:07
Speaker 7: the first time we've actually heard from Jennifer's Soto. And
2:10
Speaker 7: to hear her answering the investigators questions with really little
2:14
Speaker 7: to no information for the first time coming out of
2:17
Speaker 7: her mouth is quite.
2:18
Speaker 1: Alarming, guys.
2:19
Speaker 2: In addition to Hannah Mackenzie joining us from Fox thirty
2:23
Speaker 2: five Orlando, is renown psychoanalysts joining us out of Beverly
2:27
Speaker 2: Hills doctor Bethany Marshall, author of deal Breakers. You can
2:32
Speaker 2: see her now on peacock Doctor, Bethany, I'm just a
2:36
Speaker 2: trial lawyer. You're the psychoanalyst. But I'm pretty sure I've
2:42
Speaker 2: heard translation. I've combed over the transcript hundreds of times,
2:48
Speaker 2: Mom saying, you know, I saw the pictures you showed
2:52
Speaker 2: me of him raping my daughter, but you know I
2:57
Speaker 2: couldn't believe he would do something evil kill her.
3:01
Speaker 5: Nancy, this mother is not bonded to her daughter. She
3:05
Speaker 5: uses her daughter like bait to hold on to her boyfriend.
3:09
Speaker 5: This mother is preoccupied with the boyfriend. Did you hear
3:13
Speaker 5: her talk to the investigators about well he lied to
3:15
Speaker 5: other people.
3:16
Speaker 8: I never thought he would lie to me.
3:18
Speaker 5: She was more worried about her own betrayal than what
3:21
Speaker 5: had happened with her daughter. And one more thing, Nancy.
3:24
Speaker 5: You know, when children go missing and you interview the parents,
3:27
Speaker 5: there's two things you look for. You look for whether
3:30
Speaker 5: or not they're bonded with the child, whether or not
3:32
Speaker 5: they show concern. In this case, Jennifer shows absolutely no concern.
3:38
Speaker 5: And then you also look for details, credible details when
3:42
Speaker 5: the child was last seen, what they were wearing. Why
3:45
Speaker 5: there's so many details missing. I mean, she didn't know
3:47
Speaker 5: what her daughter was wearing her boyfriend apparently left the
3:54
Speaker 5: house super early Monday morning to take the little girl
3:57
Speaker 5: to school. Well, I think we know what this point.
4:00
Speaker 5: The little girl was deceased, but the mother seems to
4:03
Speaker 5: have no understanding about that.
4:05
Speaker 2: Well wait, pause, pause, doctor Bethany Marshall, Mattie's Soto wasn't
4:11
Speaker 2: just deceased. She was strapped in to mommy's boyfriend's car
4:18
Speaker 2: in a seatbelt, dead, propped up to look like she
4:24
Speaker 2: was alive because he knew he had to drive past
4:29
Speaker 2: an apartment cam okay, and he would be MANI cams
4:34
Speaker 2: and he would be spotted. So let me get the
4:38
Speaker 2: visual through to you. She's dead, a thirteen year old
4:42
Speaker 2: little girl propped up like she's alive like this, okay,
4:48
Speaker 2: So you take it from there, and Mom's like, yeah,
4:52
Speaker 2: you just showed me. How many was it, Jackie hold On,
4:55
Speaker 2: Hannah McKenzie. How many thousands of images were found on
5:00
Speaker 2: boyfriend's phone. I would say sex related, but they're actually
5:04
Speaker 2: of him videoing himself raping Maddie.
5:09
Speaker 1: The thirteen year old little girl.
5:10
Speaker 7: How many there are photos and videos countless on his
5:14
Speaker 7: phone and on one us B that was seized thanks
5:18
Speaker 7: to his father turning it in. There were thirty five
5:21
Speaker 7: thousand images of child sexual contraction.
5:26
Speaker 5: And none of those were on his phone.
5:29
Speaker 2: Start from where you said twenty five thousand, right, just
5:34
Speaker 2: start right there.
5:35
Speaker 7: What on Stephen Stern's USB that his father turned into police?
5:40
Speaker 7: They found thirty five thousand videos and photos of child
5:44
Speaker 7: pornography that was on one USB.
5:47
Speaker 2: You know, Hannah McKenzie, I learned in court that silence
5:54
Speaker 2: can be just as powerful as hearing some lawyer babble
5:59
Speaker 2: on and on.
6:00
Speaker 1: See my earplayed a trick on me. I thought you
6:03
Speaker 1: said twenty five You just.
6:04
Speaker 2: Said thirty five thirty five thousand videos and or steal
6:10
Speaker 2: images of what child pornography?
6:12
Speaker 7: And that was just on one us B. That's not
6:14
Speaker 7: even including the photos and videos he had of Maddie
6:17
Speaker 7: on his cell.
6:17
Speaker 2: Phone, photos and videos of what her blowing out the
6:20
Speaker 2: birthday candles, her in front of the Christmas tree, her
6:23
Speaker 2: on her birthday, photos and videos of what Hannah mackenzie.
6:28
Speaker 8: Those photos and videos.
6:30
Speaker 7: We haven't even been able to air the content that
6:33
Speaker 7: was released because reading these files and these documents that
6:36
Speaker 7: have been released by police and the Sheriff's office, they're
6:40
Speaker 7: hard to even read. The details involved include him, as
6:45
Speaker 7: you said, raping her. Oftentimes she appeared to be asleep.
6:50
Speaker 7: He was, you know, inserting his penis in her mouth,
6:54
Speaker 7: inserting his penis in her genital areas many of those times,
6:58
Speaker 7: again while she appeared to be asleep or under a blanket.
7:02
Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany, isn't it true that it is a common
7:06
Speaker 2: tactic of child molestation victims to pretend they're asleep in
7:14
Speaker 2: the hopes that that will make them a luster go away,
7:19
Speaker 2: excuse me, the rapist go away.
7:23
Speaker 1: They just pretend to sleep.
7:24
Speaker 2: And then they continue in that somnambulant state or pretend state,
7:32
Speaker 2: to remove themselves from what's really happening to their body.
7:38
Speaker 5: Yes, Nancy, it starts out as just simply playing dead.
7:42
Speaker 5: Then the trauma is so severe that they begin to dissociate,
7:47
Speaker 5: to separate from themselves, and in the final stage the
7:50
Speaker 5: sexual abuse survivors describe that as children, they would float
7:54
Speaker 5: up to the ceiling and look down on the scene
7:58
Speaker 5: as they were.
7:58
Speaker 8: Being raped and traded.
8:01
Speaker 5: The sad thing to Nancy, his mother was in the
8:03
Speaker 5: bed at the same time that all of this was happening,
8:05
Speaker 5: and we don't yet know what her involvement was in this.
8:08
Speaker 5: I think this guy was such a such a prolific offender,
8:12
Speaker 5: as intrafamilial offenders are on average day offend three hundred
8:17
Speaker 5: and forty four times against each child because they have
8:22
Speaker 5: access to them, as opposed to somebody at school or
8:25
Speaker 5: in a different environment.
8:26
Speaker 8: But I would.
8:27
Speaker 5: Imagine he was trying to have sex with his girlfriend
8:30
Speaker 5: with Jennifer in front of the little girl, just in
8:34
Speaker 5: the hopes that he would seduce the little girl or
8:36
Speaker 5: excite her. That's how disturbed this guy really is.
8:40
Speaker 2: I want you to hear Jennifer Soto in her own words.
8:46
Speaker 1: Listen, I said, you guys, I needed a night fleet.
8:49
Speaker 3: I need to take my mend. I sent them to
8:54
Speaker 3: fleet upstairs in the beds from the guest bedroom so
8:57
Speaker 3: that I could get a good night fleet. Interested that
9:04
Speaker 3: we all see together in the scene.
9:06
Speaker 8: Back together, but not the easiest person to see Blitz.
9:11
Speaker 3: She rolls around, punches you kicks.
9:14
Speaker 1: Robin Drake is joining me.
9:15
Speaker 2: Behavior expert, And I've just got to tell you this.
9:18
Speaker 2: A lot of times I see talking has, I'm like,
9:20
Speaker 2: what are they saying? That doesn't even make any sense? Drake,
9:24
Speaker 2: behavior expert, Why former FBI special agent, wait for it,
9:30
Speaker 2: chief of the FBI Counterintelligence Behavior Analysis Program and author
9:36
Speaker 2: of Okay, You've got a spy book, Unbreakable Alliances, A
9:41
Speaker 2: spy of recruiters, blah blah blah.
9:43
Speaker 1: But the one I like that's available Locktober twenty.
9:46
Speaker 2: Eight is Sizing People Up, a veteran FBI agent's manual
9:52
Speaker 2: for behavior prediction. Now, Robin, thank you for being with
9:57
Speaker 2: us and Bethany weigh in on this, and I can't
9:59
Speaker 2: wait to get to the defense attorney Philip Debay. But Robin,
10:03
Speaker 2: I have looked and looked and watched and watched, even
10:06
Speaker 2: stopped it and looked at the mother, Jennifer Soto, who
10:12
Speaker 2: now is saying, upon asking, didn't even put it out there.
10:17
Speaker 2: Do you have any pregnancy tests at home? She goes, huh, Why, Yeah,
10:22
Speaker 2: I haven't even checked to see if those are missing,
10:25
Speaker 2: raising the specter that this child could be pregnant, because
10:31
Speaker 2: we all know that once a pregnancy occurs, the woman's
10:36
Speaker 2: life is in so much more danger, even in a
10:40
Speaker 2: marital setting, much less this setting, because if she had
10:44
Speaker 2: become pregnant, then it would no longer be a secret
10:47
Speaker 2: and he would be out it. Now, what would he
10:50
Speaker 2: do to keep that from happening, Drake, because Soto's his
10:54
Speaker 2: meal ticket. He lives between her house and his mother's
10:57
Speaker 2: basement plays. So did you watch her? Did you see
11:02
Speaker 2: her behavior as she's talking about sending her daughter off
11:06
Speaker 2: to sleep with her boyfriend, and when the sheriff goes, uh.
11:10
Speaker 1: You got any pregnancy tests at home? She didn't miss
11:13
Speaker 1: a beat.
11:14
Speaker 6: You know, Doctor Bethany had everything so accurately on this one.
11:17
Speaker 6: And that is not only was a daughter trying to
11:20
Speaker 6: survive by disassociating, but so is the mother. This is
11:24
Speaker 6: the most abhorrent case I think we've ever covered. Nancy.
11:28
Speaker 6: It's just befuddling about how strongly she compartmentalized this is
11:34
Speaker 6: Jennifer and disassociate herself from the reality, and every time
11:38
Speaker 6: she was confronted with a truth of fact, her reality
11:41
Speaker 6: kept crashing down. And I guarantee you this is not
11:45
Speaker 6: his first rodeo doing this horrendous acts to children. Because
11:49
Speaker 6: he was so comfortable with not only abusing this girl
11:52
Speaker 6: and raping this girl, but he seemed to be so
11:55
Speaker 6: comfortable with killing her. It's just amazing, and so is Jennifer.
12:00
Speaker 6: She seems so comfortable in this lie that she's lived,
12:03
Speaker 6: that she can be surrounded by horrendousness and seeks to dissociating,
12:08
Speaker 6: compartmentalize away from it so effectively it's horrendous.
12:12
Speaker 2: Philip Dubay joining me, renowned attorney with the La County
12:17
Speaker 2: Public Defender's Office.
12:18
Speaker 1: You know what that means. He's in court all the time,
12:23
Speaker 1: just like.
12:23
Speaker 2: A prosecutor is in court all the time, a defense
12:27
Speaker 2: attorney is in court, especially a PAYDA public defender like
12:30
Speaker 2: twenty four seven three sixty five. Philip Dubay, what do
12:35
Speaker 2: you think about that affect of mommy?
12:37
Speaker 1: Did you see her? Have you watched the video? She's like, yeah,
12:41
Speaker 1: that's pregnancy, Tessy. What happened to them?
12:43
Speaker 9: I think in Jen's mind that her little angel is
12:46
Speaker 9: everybody's angel, and that she would assume that the entire
12:49
Speaker 9: world is her daughter's guardian angel, and she was just
12:52
Speaker 9: so unsuspecting and unwary of what was happening in her
12:57
Speaker 9: little Walter Knitting mind.
12:58
Speaker 1: Bethany helped me out.
13:00
Speaker 5: In fifty percent of all cases where children are molested,
13:03
Speaker 5: there's what we call a bystander in the household, a teenager,
13:07
Speaker 5: a cousin, somebody who sees everything but says nothing. In
13:12
Speaker 5: a fifth of all those cases, the bystander is the mother. Okay,
13:17
Speaker 5: this is the mother here. One of the reasons mothers
13:20
Speaker 5: do this, besides the fact that they're not bonded with
13:23
Speaker 5: their children, is that they're afraid of financial repercussions. But
13:26
Speaker 5: Jennifer has a job, she has a car, she drives,
13:30
Speaker 5: she decorates the house. She doesn't have those usual motivations
13:35
Speaker 5: that one would be a bystander or look the other way.
13:39
Speaker 5: I think she was taking pleasure in this. I think
13:42
Speaker 5: she was desperate to hold on to her boyfriend at
13:44
Speaker 5: any cost. I think she's selfish, self referential. All she
13:49
Speaker 5: talks about in those interviews is herself. This little girl
13:54
Speaker 5: was a thing, and it an object to be used,
13:57
Speaker 5: a plaything, to put between her and her book friend,
14:00
Speaker 5: to keep him in an aroused state so he would
14:04
Speaker 5: not leave her. She was used, plain and simple, by
14:08
Speaker 5: her own mother, the one, the one person who's supposed
14:11
Speaker 5: to protect.
14:12
Speaker 1: Her, bombshell revealed in a newly released police interview. Although
14:17
Speaker 1: murdered thirteen year old's mother was this little girl.
14:23
Speaker 2: Pregnant mom Jen Soto under questioning on this very topic.
14:29
Speaker 1: Listen, you can go even worse.
14:31
Speaker 4: She's pregnant. Thanks.
14:36
Speaker 8: That's what question of last night led me to believe.
14:40
Speaker 8: When we start talking about.
14:41
Speaker 4: Her period, I was told that her and her friend,
14:45
Speaker 4: granted male, never had a period, but that somebody found
14:50
Speaker 4: it weird that they were no longer in the same cycle.
14:54
Speaker 4: Could be different because she's a teenage girl. Could be
14:57
Speaker 4: that she missed her gerier and you were found a
15:00
Speaker 4: pregnancy test at home that wasn't yours.
15:05
Speaker 3: I have two underneath the kitchen the bathroom sink, but
15:08
Speaker 3: I haven't seen if.
15:09
Speaker 2: There's a lear in Doctor Mathady Marshall, renowned psycho analysts.
15:13
Speaker 2: I'd like to hear your analysis of what we just
15:16
Speaker 2: saw on her.
15:17
Speaker 5: Well, Nancy, this mother's voice is so vacuous, and by
15:21
Speaker 5: that I mean empty. It's like she can't even come
15:23
Speaker 5: up with emotions about this. It doesn't have that dissociated, disconnected, traumatized.
15:29
Speaker 8: Sound to it.
15:30
Speaker 5: It has the sound of a woman who's never cared
15:33
Speaker 5: about her daughter at all, and all of a sudden
15:36
Speaker 5: she has to pretend to care about her daughter, making
15:40
Speaker 5: stereotyped motions like putting her hand in her forehead, moving
15:46
Speaker 5: around as if she's sad.
15:48
Speaker 8: But she's not sad at all.
15:49
Speaker 5: You know, Nancy, there's only one reason to have a
15:51
Speaker 5: pregnancy test, is it's if you're anticipating you might get pregnant.
15:57
Speaker 5: I know she's not somebody who's been charged in this case,
16:00
Speaker 5: but on some level, it's like she was participating in
16:03
Speaker 5: a crime all along and making sure.
16:05
Speaker 8: That her boyfriend wouldn't get caught.
16:07
Speaker 5: The only thing between her and the boyfriend getting caught
16:11
Speaker 5: were these pregnancy tests.
16:13
Speaker 2: I noticed doctor Bethany when he starts talking about the
16:17
Speaker 2: pregnancy test as if that's a normal topic of conversation.
16:22
Speaker 2: Is your teen girl taking pregnancy tests? The mom who
16:25
Speaker 2: has her arms closed in front of her, she's switching legs,
16:29
Speaker 2: she tries to cross them casually and then puts them
16:33
Speaker 2: in kind of a pretzel as he's asking about the
16:37
Speaker 2: pregnancy test. But what does that mean to you as
16:40
Speaker 2: you observe.
16:41
Speaker 5: Her, Nancy, what I see in this video when she
16:44
Speaker 5: kind of puts herself into a pretzel, she's trying to
16:48
Speaker 5: act younger, regressed, more innocent than she really is.
16:52
Speaker 8: This is what little kids do. They sit cross legged,
16:54
Speaker 8: they twist.
16:55
Speaker 5: Their legs around, they twirl their hair, they do all
16:58
Speaker 5: kinds of things, kind of a classic maneuver. I think
17:01
Speaker 5: behaviorally is to act younger and more innocent than you
17:04
Speaker 5: really are.
17:05
Speaker 2: I thought Robin drink that was a sign of being
17:08
Speaker 2: on the defense.
17:10
Speaker 6: It can be, but normally, anytime you see a deviation
17:13
Speaker 6: from what we normally see in someone's baseline, it indicates
17:16
Speaker 6: a change of thought. It could be going back to
17:18
Speaker 6: awar innocent time in life. It could be blocking, it
17:20
Speaker 6: could be stress. And that's what I'm guessing here, is
17:22
Speaker 6: that this question caused stress and cause a change of
17:25
Speaker 6: thought in her.
17:25
Speaker 2: I'm just curious about how long this had been going on,
17:29
Speaker 2: based on the videos and pictures Hannah McKenzie joining us
17:34
Speaker 2: Fox thirty five, the assaults, rapes, lustations on her daughter
17:41
Speaker 2: by her boyfriend had been going on since Maddie was
17:44
Speaker 2: about nine years old.
17:46
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean nine years old to thirteen. And you
17:49
Speaker 7: got to remember she was a new thirteen year old.
17:52
Speaker 7: Her birthday was just that previous week before she was
17:54
Speaker 7: reported missing and also killed. So this was years worth
17:59
Speaker 7: of sexual abuse that this little girl had to go through.
18:04
Speaker 2: I want you to hear the entire panel how Jennifer
18:09
Speaker 2: Soto keeps referring to herself and one of problems she's having.
18:16
Speaker 2: And I also want to circle back to what she said,
18:20
Speaker 2: Let's address this first. She says, that's what questions last
18:25
Speaker 2: night led me to believe. When we started talking about
18:29
Speaker 2: her period. Who was talking about her period? Hannah Mackenzie.
18:33
Speaker 8: So this was.
18:34
Speaker 7: Brought up multiple times in different interviews with law enforcement
18:39
Speaker 7: with Jennifer, multiple times before the pregnancy test was even
18:42
Speaker 7: brought up.
18:43
Speaker 8: They were kept asking her.
18:44
Speaker 7: About her cycle, about her period, and Jennifer is on
18:48
Speaker 7: camera saying I tracked her period. I knew when she
18:51
Speaker 7: was on her period. And the detective in the office
18:55
Speaker 7: at the time said, well, did you notice any feminine
18:58
Speaker 7: hygiene products being used in February? And Jennifer kind of
19:02
Speaker 7: sits back for a second, kind of how you were
19:05
Speaker 7: describing a shift in the body language again and says, no,
19:09
Speaker 7: I didn't realize any feminine hygiene products were being used
19:13
Speaker 7: in February.
19:13
Speaker 5: I didn't notice that.
19:15
Speaker 1: Online.
19:15
Speaker 2: There has been a lot of speculation about this particular
19:19
Speaker 2: photo Mom's online speculating that here thirteen year old Mattie
19:26
Speaker 2: looks pregnant now based off what was found on a
19:30
Speaker 2: cell phone with graphic videos of the defendant Stefon Stearns
19:35
Speaker 2: raping the daughter. I also don't hear the police mention
19:39
Speaker 2: anything about a condom in any of those videos, suggesting
19:46
Speaker 2: they were having well not unprotected sex. He was raping
19:50
Speaker 2: her without a condom. The police were able to see
19:54
Speaker 2: a marking on his penis consistent with other videos in images,
20:00
Speaker 2: which means he was having unprotected sex. Other moms point
20:04
Speaker 2: to dark colored circles underneath her eyes that were not
20:09
Speaker 2: there before. I'm just wondering what does all this mean.
20:23
Speaker 2: Crime stories with Nancy Grace to you, Doctor Bethany Marshall
20:28
Speaker 2: bombshell documents revealing how steph On Sturms allegedly killed the
20:34
Speaker 2: teen dubbed her body. My question is, once a pregnancy occurs,
20:41
Speaker 2: does that raise the likelihood of violence?
20:44
Speaker 5: Nancy, It most definitely does, and primary are there are
20:46
Speaker 5: two reasons for this actually, One is that the father
20:50
Speaker 5: does not want the responsibility of a baby, and the
20:53
Speaker 5: other is the father is often envious of the unborn baby,
20:56
Speaker 5: not wanting to share the attention with the baby. But
20:59
Speaker 5: in this case, of course, we know it's so much
21:01
Speaker 5: more sinister. That baby is evidence evidence that he's been
21:07
Speaker 5: abusing this little girl. I don't think he's trying to
21:11
Speaker 5: hide a fragrancy from Jennifer. By the way, because she
21:14
Speaker 5: knows about those pregnancy tests, he has to hide it
21:17
Speaker 5: from the public and the police.
21:20
Speaker 1: He outly cried in front of the camera too.
21:22
Speaker 3: So he's face stop crying.
21:26
Speaker 4: Are you saying that now or I'm.
21:28
Speaker 8: Saying that now?
21:29
Speaker 3: I didn't think at the time.
21:30
Speaker 8: At the time, I thought he was truly heartbroken.
21:32
Speaker 3: And not that he had done all the year to her.
21:36
Speaker 3: I look back now, I'm just like he was lying,
21:39
Speaker 3: he was baking. What else has he been lying to
21:41
Speaker 3: me about. I know he's like a master Byron manipulator
21:44
Speaker 3: because he's done he's done it to his parents, and
21:46
Speaker 3: he's told me and shown me.
21:50
Speaker 1: The lies he's done to his parents. But I don't
21:53
Speaker 1: know why I never thought, not me to try.
21:56
Speaker 2: A lawyer joining us out of La Philip Dubay. I
22:00
Speaker 2: guess the defense is going to have that cost suppressed
22:04
Speaker 2: at court because they don't want the jury to hear
22:08
Speaker 2: Jennifer Soto calling Stephan Stearns a liar and a master manipulator,
22:13
Speaker 2: even though she says it's true.
22:15
Speaker 8: They're not going to need her.
22:16
Speaker 9: Frankly, They've got plenty of evidence independent of Jen. All
22:20
Speaker 9: they would really establish through Jen, if they even want
22:23
Speaker 9: to call her to this band, is that they were
22:25
Speaker 9: living together and maybe shared a bed together. But frankly,
22:28
Speaker 9: I think they have plenty of evidence without her. But
22:31
Speaker 9: let's assume that is the case they decide to put
22:33
Speaker 9: her on. You know, everybody has problems within their relationships
22:37
Speaker 9: independent of the children, and there is no playbook for
22:41
Speaker 9: how we speak out and lash out a significant or
22:44
Speaker 9: even our instinct in others. And to suggest that every couple,
22:48
Speaker 9: every marriage is just lovey dovey, picture perfect and wonderful
22:53
Speaker 9: would be frankly offensive to a jury, and it would
22:56
Speaker 9: look like you're just trying to pin the whole thing
22:57
Speaker 9: on her. So I think it could actually work to
23:00
Speaker 9: her benefit and certainly to his detriment.
23:02
Speaker 2: Wow, the cunning you display, the thinking that goes into
23:08
Speaker 2: a defense strategy is amazing. The way you analyze that,
23:12
Speaker 2: and you're like your Rumpel still skin. You take Hay
23:14
Speaker 2: and you spin it out into defense gold.
23:17
Speaker 1: Wow.
23:17
Speaker 2: Okay, guys, I want you to hear doctor Bethany Robin Drake,
23:23
Speaker 2: how this is all about me me me me me, me,
23:26
Speaker 2: me me me, me and me.
23:29
Speaker 1: Listen. Are he ugly cried in.
23:30
Speaker 2: Front of the camera too, so he's.
23:33
Speaker 8: Big soop crying.
23:35
Speaker 5: Are you saying that now or you I'm.
23:38
Speaker 8: Saying that now?
23:39
Speaker 3: I didn't think at the time. At the time, I
23:40
Speaker 3: thought he was truly heartbroken and not that he had
23:44
Speaker 3: done all this to her. I look back at it now,
23:47
Speaker 3: I'm just like he was lying. He was thinking, what
23:50
Speaker 3: else have you been lying to me about? I know
23:52
Speaker 3: he's like a master Byron manipulator because he's he's done
23:55
Speaker 3: it to his parents, and he's told me and shown
23:57
Speaker 3: me he's done to his parents. But I don't know
24:03
Speaker 3: why I never thought.
24:04
Speaker 1: Not me, Bethany Drake. Is it just me? Am I
24:09
Speaker 1: the crazy one?
24:11
Speaker 2: But is she angry because he lied to her, not
24:13
Speaker 2: that he raped her daughter for four years that we
24:17
Speaker 2: know of and killed her you, Bethany Ladies, First.
24:20
Speaker 5: Nancy, let me take it one level deeper. She's actually
24:24
Speaker 5: subtly starting to turn on him. So it's all self
24:27
Speaker 5: referential at first. Oh, he lied to me. I can't
24:30
Speaker 5: believe he lied to me. Then she starts to paint
24:33
Speaker 5: the picture of the master manipulator, and I think she's
24:35
Speaker 5: starting to manipulate the investigators saying, Hey, he's not such
24:39
Speaker 5: a nice guy. He lies to his parents. So this woman, Jennifer,
24:45
Speaker 5: has the capacity for self protection. She has the capacity
24:50
Speaker 5: to turn against her boyfriend when he doesn't please her,
24:53
Speaker 5: and she wants to save her own skin for herself,
24:57
Speaker 5: but she wouldn't do it for her daughter.
25:00
Speaker 8: Do you see where I'm going with this?
25:02
Speaker 5: She wants to protect herself, but she wouldn't protect her daughter.
25:06
Speaker 5: It's not because she's passive. It's not because she doesn't
25:09
Speaker 5: have a job and she's afraid of leaving him because
25:12
Speaker 5: she has no money, or she's been blinded by love.
25:15
Speaker 8: She only cares about herself.
25:17
Speaker 5: That's what's evident in this segment that you're playing.
25:21
Speaker 1: What about it, Robin.
25:21
Speaker 6: Drake, Oh my gosh, Doctor Bethany is so spot on
25:24
Speaker 6: with everything.
25:24
Speaker 1: I'm just sitting here nodding the entire time.
25:26
Speaker 2: And yeah, okay, Robin Drake, correct me if I'm wrong.
25:29
Speaker 2: But didn't you run the behavioral science division at the FBI.
25:36
Speaker 1: Let's see what this is here.
25:38
Speaker 2: Robin Drake, Counterintelligence behavior Analysis program. Okay, this is not
25:44
Speaker 2: an echo timer. Stop saying what she said.
25:47
Speaker 6: But she's so good, So I'll add to it, and
25:51
Speaker 6: that is in the me, me, me of her life.
25:54
Speaker 6: And she even threw him under the bus. As doctor
25:56
Speaker 6: Bethany was saying, she said that he was being heartbroken.
26:01
Speaker 1: Are you kidding me?
26:02
Speaker 6: We saw the videos of him being interviewed, and that's
26:05
Speaker 6: why I say he never once deviated from his baseline
26:08
Speaker 6: of just stoic blah, which means he's got a lot
26:12
Speaker 6: of reps of doing this. He was not fearful of
26:14
Speaker 6: being caught by her. Just like doctor Bethany was saying,
26:18
Speaker 6: it was this, This entire thing looks extremely contrived, and
26:22
Speaker 6: because she's in complete survival mode now, she sees herself
26:25
Speaker 6: being threatened and she's thrown started starting to ponder the
26:28
Speaker 6: idea of throwing him under the bus when you.
26:31
Speaker 3: Guys showed me the picture of her. I believe the
26:34
Speaker 3: sexual stuff, but I didn't want to believe that he
26:36
Speaker 3: had done anything equal to her. I'm like, know, what
26:38
Speaker 3: if she what if he did this stop buying? But
26:41
Speaker 3: what if she's still missing out there? What if somebody
26:44
Speaker 3: took her? I still wanted to believe his I believed him,
26:49
Speaker 3: I believed his whole story. So I was just like,
26:52
Speaker 3: I kept repeating that part. She's like, what if what
26:54
Speaker 3: did she take I dropped off? What if she got abducted?
26:58
Speaker 3: What if she's missing?
26:59
Speaker 1: To Bethany, Doctor.
27:01
Speaker 5: Bethany, did you just hear that this mother can't even
27:03
Speaker 5: pretend to care about her daughter.
27:07
Speaker 1: If she was really.
27:08
Speaker 5: A good actor, she would have seen the pictures of
27:10
Speaker 5: her boyfriend raping her daughter and saying, oh my god,
27:13
Speaker 5: I can't believe, oh my god. She can't even work
27:17
Speaker 5: up a crocodile tear.
27:20
Speaker 8: She cannot. That's how.
27:24
Speaker 5: Callous she is to her own daughter. She's not shocked
27:28
Speaker 5: because she's been viewing her daughter being raped for so
27:31
Speaker 5: many years. I don't think she even thinks it's evil
27:35
Speaker 5: that her daughter's been killed. It could even be a
27:37
Speaker 5: relief to her on some level that this whole thing
27:41
Speaker 5: is over. She's using a very contrived word because she
27:45
Speaker 5: is a lingering concern. She's making up concern, but she
27:50
Speaker 5: can't even fake it, Nancy, because she doesn't know what
27:52
Speaker 5: it's like.
27:52
Speaker 2: I thought, doctor Bethany, you were going to say something
27:55
Speaker 2: about one of your favorite words other than massio saticism
28:00
Speaker 2: is narcissism, that it's all about me.
28:04
Speaker 1: I wanted a.
28:04
Speaker 2: Good night sleep. I needed to take my meds. I
28:07
Speaker 2: had to get up for work. He lied to me.
28:10
Speaker 2: He did this to me. I'm so disappointed. I knew
28:13
Speaker 2: he was a liar.
28:14
Speaker 1: I I me me. You haven't even mentioned narcissism.
28:19
Speaker 8: Well, I would say narcissism steroid.
28:22
Speaker 2: By the way, narcissism is named after Narcissus, for those
28:27
Speaker 2: of you who have not been schooled by doctor Bethany,
28:29
Speaker 2: who is a mythical person who happened to look into
28:34
Speaker 2: the water and see his own image and fall in
28:38
Speaker 2: love and then died staring at himself, fell into the
28:42
Speaker 2: water and died. That's what where narcissism the word comes from.
28:48
Speaker 2: So hit at Bethany, Well, so Nancy.
28:51
Speaker 5: Also, narcissism is a spectrum disorder. So at the milder
28:55
Speaker 5: end you have narcissism, and at the most extreme end
28:58
Speaker 5: you have the psychopath antisocial sociopath psychopath. I would say
29:03
Speaker 5: she's further up to scale towards antisocial personality disorder and
29:07
Speaker 5: probably borderline personality disorder, because what you see with antisocial
29:12
Speaker 5: one of the criteria is reckless disregard and lack of
29:17
Speaker 5: concern for the rights and safety of others. Lying, conning, manipulativeness,
29:23
Speaker 5: failure to pay back debts to society, promiscuity.
29:29
Speaker 8: And you can see all of this in how she's
29:33
Speaker 8: treating her daughter.
29:34
Speaker 5: I think also the lack of empathy or remorse when
29:38
Speaker 5: another person is hurt. Almost all mothers who are bystanders
29:43
Speaker 5: when their children are being molested are not bonded with
29:47
Speaker 5: their children.
29:48
Speaker 2: There's no maternal bonding, Anthony. Can I tell you something,
29:52
Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany. All day long until we got here, I
29:57
Speaker 2: have been staring at the cell phone. Why have I
29:59
Speaker 2: been staring at the cell phone? Because my daughter had
30:02
Speaker 2: a test today. She secretly stayed up till almost one
30:05
Speaker 2: o'clock studying, And my stomach has been like that all day.
30:08
Speaker 1: How did she do? How did she do? I'm so worried.
30:10
Speaker 2: I'm so worried about her about a test, a stupid
30:13
Speaker 2: test that in the big scheme of things, doesn't even
30:16
Speaker 2: matter at Hold on, Bethany, whole panel, watch this. Watch
30:22
Speaker 2: the mom who is not charged with anything, who is
30:25
Speaker 2: not a suspect, who is not a person of interest
30:28
Speaker 2: in anything.
30:29
Speaker 6: But you didn't know that, then then.
30:33
Speaker 4: You offered a guy the police suspected, suspected of kidnap,
30:36
Speaker 4: be abducting, assisting the disappearing a lawyer, and then we
30:44
Speaker 4: don't have to run pable that you went back to
30:47
Speaker 4: what you just said is the sex stuff is fine?
30:50
Speaker 1: It's not fine.
30:51
Speaker 2: He has to call her on it, and she goes, Okay, yeah,
30:54
Speaker 2: it's not fine.
30:55
Speaker 10: But did I get that right Handah mackenzie investigated reporter
30:58
Speaker 10: in anchor Fox thirty five, Hannah, did Soto the mom
31:03
Speaker 10: offer Stephan Stearns a.
31:05
Speaker 1: Lawyer or offer to help him find a lawyer?
31:07
Speaker 7: I think in the beginning stages, yes, but she then
31:11
Speaker 7: kind of changed tune when she was speaking with investigators
31:15
Speaker 7: and they were calling her on things that she had said,
31:17
Speaker 7: like we just heard her saying, you know, this is
31:20
Speaker 7: fine and then then being like did you just say
31:22
Speaker 7: this is fine? I think she then saw that he
31:25
Speaker 7: was going to be more of a suspect and began
31:27
Speaker 7: to change her tune.
31:28
Speaker 1: Okay, because they say, didn't you know that?
31:31
Speaker 2: Then you offered a guy who the police suspected of kidnapped, abducting,
31:38
Speaker 2: assisting the disappearance of your daughter, you offered him a
31:42
Speaker 2: law You're okay, listen to this.
31:45
Speaker 4: How do you feel what he said? He is a word.
31:50
Speaker 1: He didn't believe me, Like when I was a little.
31:53
Speaker 3: My daughter, she friends, this is closing down the house.
31:55
Speaker 3: They know something or there's something like they know something,
32:01
Speaker 3: something's happening. They wouldn't be locking down the house this
32:04
Speaker 3: way if if they didn't have suspicions of something.
32:07
Speaker 8: But I wasn't.
32:08
Speaker 3: Thinking I don't know why I wasn't thinking him like,
32:11
Speaker 3: I was just like, no, they've got the wrong guy.
32:13
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm gonna try to see this in the light
32:15
Speaker 2: most favorable to Jen Sooto right now.
32:18
Speaker 1: But I'm having a hard time crime stories with Nancy Grace.
32:30
Speaker 2: See, Drake, I'm gonna go to you before I go
32:32
Speaker 2: to doctor Bethany. This time, I figured you out. Okay,
32:35
Speaker 2: you're not gonna get to say what she just said, Drake.
32:40
Speaker 2: She sees the forensic people around the house walking.
32:44
Speaker 1: Around, and you know how they look. They're like bees swarming,
32:48
Speaker 1: and she goes, hey, you don't see this, it's happening.
32:51
Speaker 1: Something's wrong. Can I help get a lawyer? What?
32:55
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure I would have stabbed him in the heart,
33:00
Speaker 2: But she's talking to him about giving him a lawyer.
33:03
Speaker 6: Yeah. She maintains a pretty pragmatic view of this entire thing,
33:06
Speaker 6: just because again I think she's witting of this. Regardless
33:10
Speaker 6: of any kind of mental health issues she may or
33:12
Speaker 6: may not have, who cares, She still made a lot
33:14
Speaker 6: of choices along this path, and the entire behavior she
33:18
Speaker 6: has is completely congruent with compartmentalization of what she wanted
33:23
Speaker 6: to believe was going on. And she thought all this
33:26
Speaker 6: was fine. She set it out of her own mouth,
33:28
Speaker 6: and so it's going to go sideways for it.
33:30
Speaker 8: There's no doubt.
33:31
Speaker 2: You know, that's interesting that he said that, Bethany, she
33:34
Speaker 2: said it out of her own mouth, because so often
33:37
Speaker 2: when we don't like what a person says, we choose
33:39
Speaker 2: to believe they meant to say something else. Straight just
33:43
Speaker 2: described the mom jen so To, who is not a
33:46
Speaker 2: suspect in any way, and I assume is graving the
33:50
Speaker 2: murder of her daughter. He described her as pragmatic. That's
33:55
Speaker 2: not the adjective I would have picked, exactly. Pragmatic. I mean,
33:59
Speaker 2: when I see forensics and swants circling the house and
34:03
Speaker 2: I know I didn't do it, and I look over
34:06
Speaker 2: this guy who's been sleeping with my daughter, I don't say, hey,
34:11
Speaker 2: can I Dahlia Philip Dubay on the phone and get
34:14
Speaker 2: you a high profile lawyer to help you out of
34:16
Speaker 2: this mess.
34:17
Speaker 1: I know that would not be what would be happening
34:19
Speaker 1: in the house.
34:20
Speaker 5: Well, okay, so remember that antisocial personality disorder symptom lying
34:26
Speaker 5: conning and manipulativeness. I hear her more as being calculating
34:31
Speaker 5: and remorseless during this time, and I think she knows
34:34
Speaker 5: that if he.
34:35
Speaker 8: Goes down, she's going to go down.
34:36
Speaker 5: She was in that bed too when her daughter was
34:39
Speaker 5: being raped. You know she's not a suspect. I do
34:42
Speaker 5: know that she has not fallen under suspicion. But if
34:45
Speaker 5: somebody's robbing a bank and I.
34:47
Speaker 2: Don't know again, the band when Maddie was raped, I
34:52
Speaker 2: think she would send them off to sleep in the
34:54
Speaker 2: guest bedroom.
34:55
Speaker 8: I don't need them.
34:55
Speaker 2: But actually, the three of them did sleep together a lot,
35:00
Speaker 2: and he did tell another woman he was saying that
35:02
Speaker 2: he would get an erection in bed with Maddie, and
35:05
Speaker 2: that woman wisely quit dating him. The three of them
35:08
Speaker 2: did sleep together, that that point is without question.
35:13
Speaker 5: Yes, And she would wake up and Jennifer would wake
35:15
Speaker 5: up in the morning and find him spooning I think
35:19
Speaker 5: the investigator called it spooning. She said cuddling with her daughter,
35:23
Speaker 5: that they would have cuddle time. Also, when she sent
35:26
Speaker 5: them upstairs, she called it a slumber party. You know,
35:30
Speaker 5: and sex often a euphemism for sex is the word play.
35:35
Speaker 5: People say, well, we had playtime or we played It's
35:38
Speaker 5: sort of an adult reference. So I heard when she
35:40
Speaker 5: said slumber party, it's almost like they're going to go
35:43
Speaker 5: sexually play. I think that she was not compartmentalizing. I
35:48
Speaker 5: think she knew exactly what was going on. And I
35:50
Speaker 5: think if he goes down, she goes down too.
35:54
Speaker 4: I know it's an emotional thing, and I know it
35:55
Speaker 4: sucks to hear borah I'm coming from is it sits
36:00
Speaker 4: like something that you can't hide forever. You guys live
36:02
Speaker 4: in a small space, close corners, you sleep in the
36:05
Speaker 4: same bed, you guys all talk, you guys all share things.
36:09
Speaker 4: You're an observant person for the most part, I see,
36:12
Speaker 4: outside of taking medications and going to sleep, it seems
36:14
Speaker 4: very difficult. A lot of girls, adults can't hide an
36:18
Speaker 4: affair with somebody who doesn't live with them, let a
36:21
Speaker 4: little somebody who does live with them. Sort of certain
36:24
Speaker 4: point I do believe you became aware of what was.
36:28
Speaker 2: Going on straight out die profile lawyer Philip Dubay joining
36:34
Speaker 2: us out of la Philip question, do you believe Jen
36:38
Speaker 2: Soto will turn on Stephan Stearn's at trial and be
36:43
Speaker 2: a state's witness because she will be in for a
36:47
Speaker 2: searing cross examination if she does.
36:50
Speaker 9: I do, as a matter of fact, But I do
36:52
Speaker 9: think what could also happen is that she might take
36:54
Speaker 9: the fifth and they're going to appoint her counsel, so
36:57
Speaker 9: they won't be able to use her for either side.
37:00
Speaker 9: Let's assume hypothetically that they do decide to put her
37:02
Speaker 9: on and she wants to testify against Stefan. I think
37:05
Speaker 9: she would come off quite credibly, But then the jury
37:08
Speaker 9: might wonder, you know, why are you being so cerebral?
37:11
Speaker 9: Why are you being so analytical about this? Why aren't
37:14
Speaker 9: you being visceral? Were you in on it? So it
37:17
Speaker 9: could actually be risky also for the prosecution by putting
37:20
Speaker 9: her on, she needs to have something substantive to say
37:24
Speaker 9: to appoint to his guilt as to the homicide and
37:26
Speaker 9: the sex offenses.
37:27
Speaker 2: Interesting, so earlier we heard doctor Bethany say, if hey,
37:32
Speaker 2: Stephan Stearns goes down.
37:33
Speaker 1: She goes down to.
37:34
Speaker 2: She's not charged with anything, So I don't see how
37:38
Speaker 2: that would happen.
37:39
Speaker 1: The only way she would quote go down is that.
37:42
Speaker 2: She would lose credibility as a mom because the jury
37:47
Speaker 2: and others would see that this happened right under her nose.
37:51
Speaker 9: And the only way she would ever be taken to
37:53
Speaker 9: stand if I were appointed to represent her as a witness,
37:56
Speaker 9: is for her to take the fifth or to be
37:58
Speaker 9: guaranteed a complete grant of you and transactional immunity. Otherwise,
38:02
Speaker 9: even if she successfully helps the prosecution gets stefan, they
38:06
Speaker 9: could come.
38:07
Speaker 8: After her next.
38:08
Speaker 9: So they have to give her some type of an
38:10
Speaker 9: incentive to testify against him because it's too risky.
38:14
Speaker 2: Wow, you know what, Dube, your borderline scary. I wouldn't
38:19
Speaker 2: have even thought of that next step of insisting that
38:22
Speaker 2: she'd be granted immunity in exchange for testimony so there
38:25
Speaker 2: could never be charges against her. Okay, one step ahead
38:29
Speaker 2: of everybody else, Doctor Eric Aesen. The big question tonight
38:33
Speaker 2: is was this little girl who just turned thirteen when
38:37
Speaker 2: she was Maddie pregnant, And I feel like I'm eating
38:41
Speaker 2: a dirt sandwich just saying those words, but the investigators
38:46
Speaker 2: brought that up in Jen Soto's interview. So doctor Aeson again,
38:52
Speaker 2: you stated you could tell pregnancy in a murder victim
38:56
Speaker 2: by yurine that you would harvest during the auto or
39:01
Speaker 2: from vitreous which is liquid surrounding the eye. Could if
39:07
Speaker 2: you then say sheet was pregnant, what do you do
39:11
Speaker 2: remove the fetus and determine the age?
39:14
Speaker 11: Oh, well, it depends on how far along you are.
39:16
Speaker 11: This was very early on in the pregnant sea. There's
39:18
Speaker 11: really not going to be much there. There's just going
39:21
Speaker 11: to be some tissue that's considered what's called products of conception,
39:25
Speaker 11: but an actual fetus is not going to be there.
39:28
Speaker 11: Another option would be to take the actual uterus itself
39:32
Speaker 11: and look at it under the microscope. You can actually
39:34
Speaker 11: see an implantation site where the embryo implanted. But you know,
39:38
Speaker 11: the further along and pregnancy that you get, you're actually
39:40
Speaker 11: going to have a fetus there, and can run DNA
39:43
Speaker 11: testing and do an actual like a second autopsy within
39:47
Speaker 11: an autopsy on that. I've done that before in a
39:49
Speaker 11: couple of cass.
39:50
Speaker 2: Hanna McKenzie joining us Fox thirty five, Orlando, the autopsy
39:54
Speaker 2: report has still not been released, has it.
39:57
Speaker 7: No, that's the that's the truth of it, Nancy. We are,
39:59
Speaker 7: you know, waiting with baited breath to get that autopsy report.
40:02
Speaker 7: We do know the cause of death listed as strangulation,
40:06
Speaker 7: and we have reached out to the state Attorney's office
40:08
Speaker 7: to find out if Mattie's body had been tested for
40:12
Speaker 7: the presence of pregnancy hormone. They got back to us
40:16
Speaker 7: and said that's an ongoing investigation and they weren't able
40:18
Speaker 7: to release those results or whether or not they'd even.
40:21
Speaker 1: Tested this entire line up.
40:24
Speaker 2: Interrogation and questioning that we are analyzing tonight comes from
40:29
Speaker 2: an interview with the mom, Jen Soto, where the investigator
40:34
Speaker 2: asks if Maddie was pregnant. We wait as justice unfolds,
40:43
Speaker 2: but now we stop to remember an American hero, Sergeant
40:47
Speaker 2: Matthew Ryan Fishman, Wayne County Sheriff's North Carolina, shot and
40:51
Speaker 2: killed in the line of duty. Fishman survived by grieving
40:56
Speaker 2: wife Sarah and two children, Nolan and Kara. Sentenced to
41:02
Speaker 2: life without dad. American hero Sergeant Matthew Ryan Fishman. Thank
41:09
Speaker 2: you to our guests for tackling this very very disturbing issue,
41:15
Speaker 2: but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Gray
41:19
Speaker 2: signing off goodbye friend,