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Nancy Guthrie Bombshell: New Video Reveals Family Knows Details Of Kidnapper’s Identity · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Tonight, a Nancy Guthrie bombshell does new video reveal the
0:07
Speaker 1: Guthrie family knows details about the kidnappers identity. Good evening.
0:13
Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to
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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 2: I'm coming on today with a very specific message. It
0:33
Speaker 2: has been months since our mom was taken from us.
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Speaker 1: Ransome note chaos.
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Speaker 3: I feel like we're in this kind of back and
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Speaker 3: forth game of what is true and what is not.
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Speaker 2: I'm coming on today with a very specific message. It
0:51
Speaker 2: has been months since our mom was taken from us.
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Speaker 2: Our family is in agony. We are in a nightmare
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Speaker 2: that will not end. Nothing about our situation has changed.
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Speaker 2: We have done our part and we will never stop
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Speaker 2: looking for her. We will always ache for her and
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Speaker 2: feel that hole in our hearts. The world can be
1:22
Speaker 2: a cruel and unforgiving place, and I know that you
1:26
Speaker 2: have tried to do things the right way. So I'm
1:29
Speaker 2: asking you, begging you to do the right thing. Now,
1:34
Speaker 2: make the right choice, Help us find her, tell us
1:38
Speaker 2: where to look for her. I truly believe it is
1:42
Speaker 2: never too late to do the right thing. Help us
1:45
Speaker 2: bring this situation to an end for all of us.
1:50
Speaker 2: No matter where we've been and what we've done, I
1:55
Speaker 2: believe there is always a way home. Please make the
1:59
Speaker 2: right choice.
2:01
Speaker 1: Did you hear Savannah Guthrie's words? We have picked them apart.
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Speaker 1: She seems to be speaking directly directly to her mother,
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Speaker 1: Nancy Guthries' kidnapper. Did you hear her say, No matter
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Speaker 1: where we've been or what we've done, there is a
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Speaker 1: way home. It's not too late to do the right thing. Translation,
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Speaker 1: you kidnapped my mother, she died, but you can still
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Speaker 1: do the right thing. Trust me. Her statements were sanctioned
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Speaker 1: by the FBI. There's really no doubt about it. We've
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Speaker 1: got an all star panel tonight. But first, let's address
2:47
Speaker 1: that question straight out to Brian Fitzgibbons. You know him well.
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Speaker 1: He is the director of Operations at usp A nationwide
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Speaker 1: security leading a team of investigators around the world finding
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Speaker 1: and extracting missing pace people. What do you make of
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Speaker 1: what she just said? Read between the lines, it seems
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Speaker 1: to me that they mote they know more the Guthrie family.
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Speaker 1: More details about the perps identity.
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Speaker 4: Yeah.
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Speaker 5: The tone and tenor of this message is in stark
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Speaker 5: contrast to the previous messages that the Guthrie family, specifically
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Speaker 5: Savannah released previously in the investigation. And one thing that
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Speaker 5: I'll note is that she seems to be directing this
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Speaker 5: narrative to a specific person that we've done our part. Quote,
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Speaker 5: does that mean that some kind of ransom has been paid?
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Speaker 5: And one thing that I want to hide is that
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Speaker 5: it seems that there have been other communications. You know,
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Speaker 5: if you read between the lines here, it's very high
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Speaker 5: potential that there has been more communication between a suspected
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Speaker 5: perpetrator and the Guthrie family.
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Speaker 1: Straight out to Susan Hendricks, joining us investigative reporter, author
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Speaker 1: of A Down the Hill, My Descent to the Double
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Speaker 1: Murder in Delphi. She has been on the Guthrie case
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Speaker 1: since the beginning. Much has been made of this being
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Speaker 1: the six month anniversary, so to speak, of Missus Guthrie's kidnapping,
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Speaker 1: But I disagree. We've had a one month, two month,
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Speaker 1: three month, four month, five month. I don't think Savannah
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Speaker 1: would speak in this manner unless she's responding to something.
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Speaker 1: I don't think that she's just speaking to avoid I
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Speaker 1: think she is reacting to something. I want to hear
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Speaker 1: your analysis, Susan Hendrix.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, Nancy, it sounds definitely more personal. It sounds like
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Speaker 3: her family may have taken action in terms of paying
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Speaker 3: some sort of amount, saying we have done our part.
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Speaker 3: And also it feels like that she thinks who she
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Speaker 3: is speaking to has some sort of conscience. It's never
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Speaker 3: too late to do the right thing. And I go back,
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Speaker 3: that stood out to me the most, saying we have
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Speaker 3: done our part, and to paraphrase, now it's up to
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Speaker 3: you to act. We will never stop looking, saying this
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Speaker 3: isn't going to end. We're not just going to ignore it.
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Speaker 3: It's now your chance to do the right thing.
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Speaker 1: To Dave Matt Crime Stories investigative reporter Dave, much of
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Speaker 1: what she says seems very very directed. For instance, it's
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Speaker 1: almost like she's handing over a receipt. Okay, we've done
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Speaker 1: our parts. What does that mean. We've done our part?
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Speaker 6: Now you deliver that seems to it's very very directed.
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Speaker 6: As you're right in pointing out they're saying we did
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Speaker 6: what you asked, We've already done that. You have not
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Speaker 6: lived up to your end. The wording here is really
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Speaker 6: it's different in that you know, in previous missives it's
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Speaker 6: been a request would you please, would you do this?
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Speaker 6: Or you know? But this is a demand, Dan, and
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Speaker 6: see where do we look? You owe us this, We
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Speaker 6: did what you asked, Now tell us where our mom is.
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Speaker 6: It's it's consistent, yet very dirt.
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Speaker 1: Another interesting point that you just sparked in my mind,
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Speaker 1: Dave Matt is this missive is different also in the
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Speaker 1: sense that prior to now, prior to tonight, she say bring
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Speaker 1: our mom back, bring our mom back. Now she's saying,
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Speaker 1: tell us where to look for her. I find that
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Speaker 1: very very revealing.
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Speaker 6: I agree, Nthy. And on top of that, it's almost
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Speaker 6: it really seems to be directed at one person, not
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Speaker 6: like an entire group of people, but one person, tell
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Speaker 6: me where I can find my mother. And again it's
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Speaker 6: a demand, it's not a request. And in pointing out
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Speaker 6: we've done our part goes right back to we did
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Speaker 6: what you asked us to do you owe us tell
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Speaker 6: us where to find mom.
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Speaker 1: Listen to the details, the specifics of what Savannah has
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Speaker 1: just released.
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Speaker 2: I'm coming on today with a very specific message. It
7:12
Speaker 2: has been months since our mom was taken from us.
7:18
Speaker 2: Our family is in agony. We are in a nightmare
7:22
Speaker 2: that will not end. Nothing about our situation has changed.
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Speaker 2: We have done our part, and we will never stop
7:32
Speaker 2: looking for her. We will always ache for her and
7:36
Speaker 2: feel that hole in our hearts. The world can be
7:42
Speaker 2: a cruel and unforgiving place. And I know that you
7:46
Speaker 2: have tried to do things the right way. So I'm
7:50
Speaker 2: asking you, begging you to do the right thing. Now,
7:55
Speaker 2: make the right choice. Help us find her, Tell us
7:59
Speaker 2: where to look for her. I truly believe it is
8:03
Speaker 2: never too late to do the right thing. Help us
8:06
Speaker 2: bring this situation to an end for all of us,
8:11
Speaker 2: no matter where we've been and what we've done, I
8:15
Speaker 2: believe there is always a way home. Please make the
8:20
Speaker 2: right choice.
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Speaker 1: Joining us now. Renowned psychologist, A forensic psychologist, Karen Stark,
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Speaker 1: TV radio trauma expert consultant at Karenstark dot com. Karen,
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Speaker 1: did you notice, she says, and I quote, I know
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Speaker 1: that you have tried to do things the right way.
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Speaker 1: What the perp kidnapped an eighty plus year old frail
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Speaker 1: lady who lived alone, a widow woman, took her out
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Speaker 1: in the middle of the night, probably hit her in
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Speaker 1: the face and made her bleed. She didn't have her
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Speaker 1: hearing aids. She may not have glasses, She had no
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Speaker 1: idea what was going on, couldn't hear, probably couldn't see,
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Speaker 1: and is being dragged out in her pajama's barefoot. What
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Speaker 1: Why is she saying? And I know, Savannah, she said
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Speaker 1: this for a reason. Why is she saying, I know
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Speaker 1: you've tried to do things the right way?
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Speaker 7: What?
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Speaker 8: It's very psychologically strategic, wouldn't you say, Nancy, Because what
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Speaker 8: she's doing is she's trying to appeal to this person,
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Speaker 8: whoever this person may be, and she's saying she's trying
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Speaker 8: to make this person feel like She's not saying, oh,
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Speaker 8: you know, you're great and what you did was terrific,
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Speaker 8: But she's giving this person a chance to take a
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Speaker 8: look and say, you know, I think you might have
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Speaker 8: a good person inside of you, that you try to
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Speaker 8: do the right thing, that we need you now to
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Speaker 8: help us. That's what's happening here. It's very strategic in
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Speaker 8: terms of going to that person and wanting that person
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Speaker 8: to come forward without accusing them. And that's the most important.
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Speaker 8: You don't hear the accusation how could you do this?
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Speaker 8: Or where hysterical? It's much more about now you do
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Speaker 8: the right thing. The feeling to a conscience.
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Speaker 1: Well, I think she's playing up to the kidnapper because
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Speaker 1: this guy has never done the right thing. He's despicable,
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Speaker 1: she says, if I know you have tried to do
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Speaker 1: the right thing. Why is she saying that because she
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Speaker 1: wants a response joining us now? Morgan Right, cybersecurity expert,
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Speaker 1: former detective who actually trained the FBI cart CEOCART team
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Speaker 1: on Internet investigations. He is the CEO of National Center
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Speaker 1: for Open and Unsolved Cases. Why is Savannah saying that
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Speaker 1: to the kidnapper? Directly to the kidnapper, I know you
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Speaker 1: tried to do things the right way, you.
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Speaker 7: Know, Nancy. Something that struck me as we were all
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Speaker 7: talking and listening. What has always been the trigger? The
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Speaker 7: trigger has been the payment of money. That's what this
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Speaker 7: is what this whole thing started from at the start. Right,
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Speaker 7: So when she says we've done our part, the one
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Speaker 7: hypothesis is does that mean money has been paid? Now
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Speaker 7: we've done our part, you need to do your part,
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Speaker 7: which is tell us where she's at. You know, I
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Speaker 7: was listening to earlier, you were right. I mean we've
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Speaker 7: had the one month to two months, et cetera, to
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Speaker 7: the six months nothing news there. But what what triggers something?
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Speaker 7: What's new? When you use the language we have done
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Speaker 7: our part, that means they've taken an action to fulfill
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Speaker 7: a request from the you know, the offenders. The only
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Speaker 7: thing that would make sense on something like that is
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Speaker 7: the payment of money, and I don't know that that's happened.
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Speaker 7: But when we look at triggers, I mean we can look.
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Speaker 7: I used to teach behavior analysis, I used to teach
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Speaker 7: interview and interrogation, and obviously words mean things. You look
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Speaker 7: at what does somebody say? How do they say? It's
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Speaker 7: like I didn't rob that bank with this guy, and
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Speaker 7: well maybe you rob that bank with another gun. Right,
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Speaker 7: words mean things. I don't want to overanalyze it, but
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Speaker 7: there's definitely a trigger. There's something very personal in this.
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Speaker 7: Where before it was generic, it was wide ranging. Now
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Speaker 7: this is you. Now the thing is we've done our part.
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Speaker 7: What does that mean? It means you fulfilled some kind
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Speaker 7: of implied contract. You know, that's a potential hypothesis. So, Nancy,
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Speaker 7: that's what I think. I think there has to have
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Speaker 7: been an action taken on the Guthrie family part to
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Speaker 7: trigger something. And now it's not about return uses. Just
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Speaker 7: tell us where we can find her.
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Speaker 1: I agree with you, Morgan Wright. Something has happened to
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Speaker 1: make her Savannah who I've got to tell you. Of course,
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Speaker 1: on the Today Show she seems genuine and humble. She is,
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Speaker 1: but she's also smart as a whip. Every word I
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Speaker 1: guarantee you was sanctioned by the FBI. Do you agree
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Speaker 1: with that?
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Speaker 7: I think hard to tell, but I would say that
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Speaker 7: there's obviously if influence in it. In other words, when
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Speaker 7: you craft messages. I go back to a friend of mine,
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Speaker 7: as Dave Reiker, who investigated the Green River killer, Gary Ridgeway.
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Speaker 7: When they put out messages to the killer, you know,
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Speaker 7: to the Ridgeway, they worked with the FBI specifically to
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Speaker 7: put language in there. When they did their whole TV
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Speaker 7: show thing where they talked about the case, and then
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Speaker 7: when Dave went into interview them at the end, there
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Speaker 7: were specific words. Now, I think that the FBI is
13:24
Speaker 7: obviously collaborating because words can trigger emotional things. You want
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Speaker 7: behavior provoking things to happen. So I don't know that
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Speaker 7: the FBI wrote the message, but I think that is
13:34
Speaker 7: it's heartfelt. So there's a lot of Savannah's content and
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Speaker 7: there that's her emotion writing, but I think it was
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Speaker 7: constructed in a framework to say, what's the objective. What
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Speaker 7: do we want out of this message? We want a
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Speaker 7: behavioral change on the person the messages going to, which
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Speaker 7: is we have done our part, now do yours. In
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Speaker 7: other words, whatever triggered this, they have fulfilled that implied contract.
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Speaker 7: Now it's time for them to do that. So I
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Speaker 7: think the FBI potent. I mean, there's there's heavy FBI
14:00
Speaker 7: influence in this investigation to begin with their experts at
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Speaker 7: doing this. So I think their hostage of rescue people,
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Speaker 7: I think their behavior analysis, their BAU was helpful in
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Speaker 7: reviewing or crafting this message that eventually went out.
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Speaker 1: Morgan, Right, I agree with everything you just said. But
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Speaker 1: to put it more succinctly, hell would freeze over before
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Speaker 1: a lawyer as smart Savannah Guthrie would go rogue and
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Speaker 1: put out a statement that the FBI had not combed
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Speaker 1: with a fine to come right. That would be like
14:31
Speaker 1: me cross examining a neurophysicist without consulting with an expert
14:39
Speaker 1: first right, No, would never happen. She knew what she
14:45
Speaker 1: was doing, and that leads me to another point. Bring
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Speaker 1: up the shrink Karen stark. Listen to this, Karen. The
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Speaker 1: world can be a cruel and unforgiving place, and I
15:00
Speaker 1: know you've tried to do things the right way. So
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Speaker 1: I'm asking you, begging you to do the right thing. Now,
15:08
Speaker 1: what is she saying? The world can be a cruel
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Speaker 1: and unforgiving place. In other words, everybody else is three
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Speaker 1: inches up your tailpipe. They want you dead, kidnapp her
15:22
Speaker 1: except me. I understand, and I know you've tried to
15:26
Speaker 1: do things the right way. You've got to analyze that
15:31
Speaker 1: from me, the world all those other people can be
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Speaker 1: cruel and unforgiving. I know you've tried to do things
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Speaker 1: the right way.
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Speaker 8: Yes, Nancy. It's back to that line between I want
15:49
Speaker 8: to get this person to have some kind of conscience.
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Speaker 8: I want to say I understand you. The world is
15:56
Speaker 8: so difficult, But it's also walking that very thin line
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Speaker 8: saying I don't approve of what you did because she
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Speaker 8: doesn't mention that right you didn't. Oh, I understand. You
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Speaker 8: must have been hurting, But the world can be cruel.
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Speaker 8: And now I think it's important for you to do
16:13
Speaker 8: the right thing. But I understand you. I'm appealing to you.
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Speaker 8: This is just me and you we're having a very
16:20
Speaker 8: private conversation, and I understand where you're coming from. That's
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Speaker 8: what it sounds like to me, a psychological connection.
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Speaker 1: You are seeing missus Guthrie in her home. This is
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Speaker 1: her bedroom from where she was kidnapped. That was on
16:37
Speaker 1: a kind of a funny segment she did with Savannah
16:40
Speaker 1: on the Today Show. Savannah to the effect of, I
16:44
Speaker 1: really don't make my bed up like my mom, and
16:47
Speaker 1: they have the mom showing how she makes a military
16:50
Speaker 1: style you can bounce a corner off bed. That was
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Speaker 1: Savannah talking to her mom. That's from our chif friends
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Speaker 1: at the Today Show. Okay, Now, of course, once Savannah
17:04
Speaker 1: takes the lead with the help of the FBI, I'm
17:06
Speaker 1: sure Nanos comes out and gives a statement.
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Speaker 9: It's the same message we had day one. We're working
17:15
Speaker 9: this as hard as we can. There's no lead too small.
17:20
Speaker 9: We like Savannah today, we encourage you. If you know something,
17:24
Speaker 9: you saw something, please call us. Let us know. We
17:28
Speaker 9: have so much DNA to sort through, we have so
17:32
Speaker 9: much in terms of video evidence to look at. So
17:36
Speaker 9: I'm still positive that we're going to resolve this case.
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Speaker 1: That's reference at kVA n NBC. He says there's no
17:44
Speaker 1: lead too small. We like Savannah today, encourage you if
17:48
Speaker 1: you know something, saw something, please call us let us know. Okay,
17:55
Speaker 1: you don't see Cash Betel or the FBI coming out
17:59
Speaker 1: and making statements because they can keep their apps shut. Morgan, Right,
18:03
Speaker 1: what is so OP as it come as it relates
18:06
Speaker 1: to commenting on cases by the feds, You.
18:13
Speaker 7: Know they're they're very good about plausible. We we can
18:16
Speaker 7: either confirm or deny that an investigation is underway, things
18:18
Speaker 7: like that. But the one thing you don't want to
18:20
Speaker 7: do is you don't want to set the defaultse expectation
18:23
Speaker 7: is that we are so close to solving this, or
18:25
Speaker 7: that we are we are you know, we've got this identified,
18:28
Speaker 7: or we've got that. I think a lot of times
18:31
Speaker 7: I know the public and the press want information, But
18:33
Speaker 7: I will tell you from my standpoint, working with the FBI,
18:35
Speaker 7: before working with all the federal agencies other agencies, you
18:38
Speaker 7: have to keep some information close to your vest because
18:41
Speaker 7: you don't want to disclose a investigative strategy where you're going.
18:44
Speaker 7: So the FBI is always usually very reticent to come
18:50
Speaker 7: out and make bold statements. Now, when Cash Hotel did
18:53
Speaker 7: come out, it's when they recovered the video that we're
18:55
Speaker 7: seeing here. The minute they recovered that and got it
18:57
Speaker 7: out there, boom, there's a there's a statement. You don't
19:00
Speaker 7: want to make a statement just to make a statement,
19:02
Speaker 7: because it pollutes people's memories of what happens. It pollutes
19:05
Speaker 7: the connections that they might have made. So what you
19:08
Speaker 7: want to do is when there's something substantive, you want
19:11
Speaker 7: to come out and give that and others like we've
19:12
Speaker 7: made a breakthrough, or here's an update. You know, we
19:16
Speaker 7: just got to lead about this, maybe something like that.
19:18
Speaker 7: I just I am not comfortable with just vomiting on
19:22
Speaker 7: everybody saying, well, here's everything we got and I got
19:24
Speaker 7: to come out. If the only purpose is to stay
19:26
Speaker 7: in the news, you don't need to do that because
19:27
Speaker 7: this case is nationally known. So there's no need to
19:30
Speaker 7: always come out and do a rebuttal when Savannah puts
19:33
Speaker 7: out something or somebody else puts out something. I would
19:36
Speaker 7: sometimes it's best to keep things close to the vest
19:39
Speaker 7: so that when you announce something, you get the impact
19:42
Speaker 7: that you're looking for, which is it creates behavior changes,
19:45
Speaker 7: It tells people, yeah, you're right, I've got information. I
19:48
Speaker 7: need to give it. But when you just come out
19:50
Speaker 7: all the time you create this, you desensitize people to
19:55
Speaker 7: the importance of the case. And so it's like when
19:57
Speaker 7: something comes out when I was a trouper, giving an example,
19:59
Speaker 7: when I was a true we didn't always turn on
20:00
Speaker 7: our I had a lifeboard, we didn't always turn it on.
20:03
Speaker 7: We used a red spotlight to stop people because we
20:05
Speaker 7: wanted people to understand that when they saw the red lights,
20:07
Speaker 7: something was going on. But if you see them all
20:10
Speaker 7: the time, you become desensitized to them. So I don't
20:13
Speaker 7: know that I can give them advice, but I would
20:15
Speaker 7: say that the FBI has been more circumspect on what
20:17
Speaker 7: they release as opposed to the Sheriff's office.
20:24
Speaker 1: One thing I did learn, and this is out to
20:27
Speaker 1: Professor Forensics Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My
20:32
Speaker 1: Feet on Amazon's star of a hit podcast Body Bags
20:36
Speaker 1: with Joe Scott Morgan. But for our purposes, he is
20:39
Speaker 1: a death investigator with over ten thousand death scenes of
20:43
Speaker 1: all sorts under his belt. Okay, Joseph Scott Morgan joining us.
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Speaker 1: He did say one thing which could be valuable, but
20:55
Speaker 1: it's not really anything. We didn't know, but he's bringing
20:58
Speaker 1: it to the forefront that the DNA is still being
21:01
Speaker 1: worked on and is at multiple labs, he said, all
21:06
Speaker 1: over the country. Thanks to his bumbling, he first sent
21:09
Speaker 1: it to their pet lab that they've got a money
21:12
Speaker 1: contract with instead of sending it straight to the FEDS
21:16
Speaker 1: or to somewhere like offrom Libs or was it Aura
21:20
Speaker 1: lab that we kind of figured out that they have
21:23
Speaker 1: sent the DNA to. It's one of that lab's specialties. Regardless,
21:29
Speaker 1: we now know because of his slip of the tongue
21:32
Speaker 1: that the DNA is in multiple labs all across the country,
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Speaker 1: says Nanos, which leads me to this. If the kidnapper
21:46
Speaker 1: here's Savannah's plea directs them to the location, can we
21:55
Speaker 1: get at this stage, remember she's buried with nature. Can
22:00
Speaker 1: we get his DNA off? Missus Guthrie's remains be.
22:07
Speaker 4: Very difficult at this point in time, depended upon if
22:11
Speaker 4: she's still clad and anything that he may have had contact,
22:14
Speaker 4: and those surfaces would have to be protected. Nancy Licious,
22:17
Speaker 4: think about a shirt, a pair of pants, a pair
22:21
Speaker 4: of socks, whatever the case might be. Those areas would
22:24
Speaker 4: in fact have to be protected to the degree that
22:27
Speaker 4: this fragile biological evidence could not be compromised. Now, the
22:32
Speaker 4: tools that we have are very very sensitive, but when
22:35
Speaker 4: you're talking about the environment in which she has allegedly
22:40
Speaker 4: been placed in, Remember we did an entire piece about
22:44
Speaker 4: probability or possibility where she may have been deposited. This
22:49
Speaker 4: is a very harsh environment, Nancy, very very harsh. And
22:52
Speaker 4: this is a long period of time that we're looking at.
22:55
Speaker 4: I mean, other things have happened over the years where
22:58
Speaker 4: we have been able to find that's nest sold in
23:01
Speaker 4: specific areas, but the odds at this point are very
23:05
Speaker 4: very difficult. I think. So where the sourcing of this
23:09
Speaker 4: DNA he is alluding to, what's the font from which
23:13
Speaker 4: that springs? Well, you know, for me, it's it comes
23:16
Speaker 4: down specifically to that bedroom, any points of entry where
23:22
Speaker 4: you know you're thinking about potential for touch DNA, And
23:27
Speaker 4: you know, one of the problems is, and you know,
23:29
Speaker 4: I hate to revisit the past like this, is that
23:31
Speaker 4: that scene was early on was compromised. So they're probably
23:37
Speaker 4: having to sift through a myriad of samples that were
23:41
Speaker 4: initially unidentified to rule out everybody else that may have
23:46
Speaker 4: been in that space. For a period of time, and
23:48
Speaker 4: this has really almost exponentially when you look at the
23:52
Speaker 4: numbers of DNA, it's exponentially created a bigger problem here. So,
24:00
Speaker 4: you know, this is kind of troubling to me as well.
24:02
Speaker 4: And I'll be brief the idea that it would be
24:06
Speaker 4: at multiple, multiple providers at this point in time. This
24:11
Speaker 4: is an evidentiary trail that we're talking about. So has
24:15
Speaker 4: this been farmed out to multiple labs? And how do
24:19
Speaker 4: you keep track of that? That was one of the
24:21
Speaker 4: big questions Earlier. You had alluded to this group that
24:25
Speaker 4: they were affiliated with down in Florida. Remember they had
24:28
Speaker 4: to kind of pull back from that. Then some of
24:30
Speaker 4: this got sent to the FBI, the.
24:32
Speaker 1: DNA International, DNA International I believe, DNA International Labs something
24:37
Speaker 1: like that go ahead.
24:37
Speaker 4: Yeah, And so the idea that it's going out to
24:42
Speaker 4: multiple locations is troubling to me from an evidentiary standpoint.
24:46
Speaker 4: Chain of custody and accountability, I think is what it
24:50
Speaker 4: really comes down to in this particular case. You know,
24:54
Speaker 4: how much time do you need in order to parse
24:58
Speaker 4: through all of this? Don't think that you need this
25:02
Speaker 4: much time. So it goes back to me, it seems
25:05
Speaker 4: as though this is a confused mess.
25:09
Speaker 1: I recall the name. It's Aura Genetics. They're a molecular
25:15
Speaker 1: molecular diagnostics, high complexity clinical lab that provides advanced DNA
25:24
Speaker 1: and are in a sequencing. We know the DNA is there,
25:34
Speaker 1: we know that it was sent to DNA Laboratories International
25:40
Speaker 1: in Florida. We think that Quantico is working on it.
25:45
Speaker 1: That's three different and isolated labs, each with a unique specialty.
25:51
Speaker 1: So what about this? To Karen Stark, I'm certainly not
25:56
Speaker 1: arguing with Joe Scott Morgan's analysis. But Karen, how often
26:02
Speaker 1: have we seen killers, kidnappers treat a body post mortem
26:12
Speaker 1: with a certain degree of care? In other words, I
26:17
Speaker 1: don't think they would dump Missus Guthrie on the side
26:20
Speaker 1: of the road. I don't think that they would bury
26:23
Speaker 1: her in dirt where dirt would come in contact with
26:28
Speaker 1: her face and her body. Why. I don't know. Why
26:32
Speaker 1: does a dog turn walk around three times before it
26:34
Speaker 1: sits down? Age old question? But it does. I'm telling you,
26:38
Speaker 1: I think if Missus Guthrie passed away and they disposed
26:43
Speaker 1: of her body, I think they wrapped it in something,
26:47
Speaker 1: be it a sheet, a blanket, a tarp, a body bag,
26:52
Speaker 1: A something I do not think and I can't tell
26:57
Speaker 1: you why they would just put her in a shallow
27:00
Speaker 1: and put dirt on her face. I just why, Well.
27:05
Speaker 8: You know, part of what comes to me, and I
27:08
Speaker 8: wonder if other people are thinking the same thing, Nancy,
27:10
Speaker 8: is that I don't believe they went in there at
27:14
Speaker 8: all with the intention to create harm or kill this person.
27:18
Speaker 8: Not that they were careful or they cared, because obviously
27:21
Speaker 8: they went in, but I think that this, in my opinion,
27:24
Speaker 8: this was a surprise that they didn't anticipate this happening.
27:28
Speaker 8: And I would agree with you that there's a certain
27:32
Speaker 8: amount of caution carefulness about the body because we think
27:38
Speaker 8: about you know, sometimes you see a killing and the
27:42
Speaker 8: killer has put a pillow over a face or a blanket,
27:46
Speaker 8: another way to hide a person, like they don't want
27:50
Speaker 8: the person to look out and see what happened, or
27:53
Speaker 8: they want them to be comfortable, so they put a
27:55
Speaker 8: pillow under their head. And I believe that this is
27:58
Speaker 8: that same kind of situation, that they don't see her,
28:02
Speaker 8: just as nobody they understand that this is a woman
28:06
Speaker 8: who was an older woman. I don't think they meant
28:08
Speaker 8: to kill her. That's just my opinion, and they will
28:12
Speaker 8: treat her as kindly as they are able to, or whoever.
28:15
Speaker 1: They are, which leads me back to Joseph Scott Morgan
28:21
Speaker 1: Joe Scott. If this body was, as I suspect, wrapped
28:26
Speaker 1: in something, and I can't tell you why, Maybe it's
28:28
Speaker 1: years of experience. I think she was wrapped in something
28:33
Speaker 1: before she was buried. Would that change your analysis on
28:38
Speaker 1: whether DNA from the PERP can be found?
28:42
Speaker 4: Yeah, potentially, And it all depends on what this medium
28:46
Speaker 4: is that she would be wrapped in. Of course, you know,
28:48
Speaker 4: are we talking about plastic or are we talking about burlap?
28:51
Speaker 4: Are we talking about a sheet that they may have
28:54
Speaker 4: had access to, because you know, when you begin to
28:57
Speaker 4: look at the note, she was taken somewhere obviously, and
29:02
Speaker 4: you know, if you refer back to one of the
29:04
Speaker 4: notes that says she perished early on which to me
29:07
Speaker 4: is a fascinating terminology. Use of terminology there, and what
29:12
Speaker 4: would they do well, I don't know if there's so
29:15
Speaker 4: much honoring the dead by doing that as they are
29:18
Speaker 4: trying to. I refer to it as cocooning, cocooning of
29:22
Speaker 4: the remains to prevent any further spillage perhaps, and you
29:28
Speaker 4: would if you can find a vehicle, perhaps you might
29:31
Speaker 4: see some transfer in there as well, because you know,
29:34
Speaker 4: we already know she sustained blunt force trauma. Nancy. I mean,
29:39
Speaker 4: I believe that a lot of other people believe that
29:41
Speaker 4: you just that's evidenced on the front the front area.
29:45
Speaker 4: You know, this this idea of perhaps respecting her in life,
29:49
Speaker 4: I think kind of goes out the window. You know,
29:52
Speaker 4: when you feel as though that you need to use
29:54
Speaker 4: blunt force in order to subdue this poor woman who's
29:58
Speaker 4: got a pacemaker and she's got you know, hypertension and
30:03
Speaker 4: all these other things. You know, how what do you
30:06
Speaker 4: need to do to get her to comply. Well, you'll
30:08
Speaker 4: go to the point, well, you'll pop her in the face,
30:11
Speaker 4: which I think this was probably a noso fairenex thing,
30:14
Speaker 4: the nose, the mouth, that's where things looking at the
30:17
Speaker 4: blood deposition. So yeah, you know, I suppose that if
30:23
Speaker 4: she is cocoon to the point where she is sealed
30:26
Speaker 4: to a certain degree, you could find some transfer there.
30:30
Speaker 4: But again I go back to this harsh environment. If
30:32
Speaker 4: we are to believe what has been alluded to the
30:35
Speaker 4: location of where she may have been deposited. It's going
30:39
Speaker 4: to be very, very difficult.
30:43
Speaker 1: Joe Scott, lightning round. Isn't it true that DNA can
30:48
Speaker 1: be extracted fifty sixty years after the event from a body.
30:55
Speaker 4: From a body?
30:56
Speaker 1: Yes, okay. And if she is wrapped in any way,
31:01
Speaker 1: regardless of the intentions of the kidnapper to rap, why
31:05
Speaker 1: he did it right, if her body was wrapped, And
31:08
Speaker 1: I will bet you, I will bet you tonight that
31:12
Speaker 1: her body was in fact wrapped. How do I don't
31:16
Speaker 1: know how I know, but I know, well, it's key.
31:19
Speaker 1: There could be DNA on her body and it can
31:22
Speaker 1: be analyzed.
31:24
Speaker 4: Right, but earlier, going back to your comment just a
31:27
Speaker 4: second ago, you said from within the body and within
31:30
Speaker 4: the body's protected bone, teeth, this sort of thing. It's
31:34
Speaker 4: different than surface deposition of DNA. And so that's why
31:37
Speaker 4: I think that this is a very delicate situation. Wherever
31:40
Speaker 4: they find her, look, I hope that it happens. I
31:43
Speaker 4: hope that there's something there.
31:45
Speaker 1: That shot you're seeing missus Guffrey's blood on the front
31:49
Speaker 1: porch is from our friends at Fox News. And now
31:53
Speaker 1: we finally know the full wording in the ransom note.
31:59
Speaker 10: Listen Hello, Savannah, we have your mother Nancy. She is
32:03
Speaker 10: safe but scared. She will be held for ransom and
32:06
Speaker 10: once payment is received, she will be released unharmed. We
32:09
Speaker 10: will be holding her for a maximum of seven days.
32:13
Speaker 1: From our friends at Crime Junkie straight out to Susan
32:17
Speaker 1: Hendrix joining us, investigative journalist and author. Who is that
32:21
Speaker 1: and why is she reading the ransom note out loud?
32:26
Speaker 3: That is Brianna who got the ransom note. It was
32:29
Speaker 3: given to her. She's reading it out loud so we
32:32
Speaker 3: can analyze exactly what it means. There were two ransom
32:35
Speaker 3: notes that the family believes were real, and they're very
32:38
Speaker 3: different from each other. The one that we were just
32:40
Speaker 3: listening to is the one that's more straightforward. This is
32:44
Speaker 3: what we want here. The demand seems heartless. The second
32:48
Speaker 3: ransom note, in my opinion, seems more caring. We underestimated
32:53
Speaker 3: the seriousness of her illness. We are truly sorry. There
32:57
Speaker 3: is nothing that you could have done here. So is
33:00
Speaker 3: Savannah Guthrie speaking directly to the writer of the second note.
33:04
Speaker 10: It appears that way to me.
33:06
Speaker 1: Okay, we are hearing Brianna Whitney. She is on Crime
33:12
Speaker 1: Junkie and she's reportedly reading verbatim from the first ransom note.
33:16
Speaker 1: Let's hear more.
33:17
Speaker 10: The money was demanded in USD so US dollar. Typically,
33:22
Speaker 10: if this is coming from somebody here, you don't say
33:24
Speaker 10: that they are addressing just Savannah. Yeah, you don't say
33:26
Speaker 10: the Guthrie family. Hello, Savannah, we have your mother.
33:29
Speaker 11: We always wondered if it was like about who she was,
33:33
Speaker 11: or did he just happen upon her not knowing that
33:35
Speaker 11: he was going to garner this attention. But it seems
33:37
Speaker 11: like this was about or they at least like not
33:40
Speaker 11: necessary about Sanveyvanna, but they knew Savannah had money.
33:42
Speaker 10: Yes, at a minimum, I think so, Savanna, I believe
33:45
Speaker 10: was obviously you know the target of where we would
33:48
Speaker 10: get the money from, if you are the person who
33:49
Speaker 10: is targeting this. Once payment is received the bitcoin address below,
33:53
Speaker 10: she will be released within twelve hours of deposit to
33:57
Speaker 10: a safe drop off location back in Tucson. If the
34:01
Speaker 10: payment is not received by the last deadline on Monday
34:04
Speaker 10: the ninth, at five pm, she will be killed. Your
34:07
Speaker 10: mother is aware of this and her life is in
34:10
Speaker 10: your hands. It is in the best interest of everyone
34:14
Speaker 10: to have this completed as soon as possible. You will
34:18
Speaker 10: not be able to contact me from here on out.
34:20
Speaker 10: There will be no negotiation. Do not play games. Law
34:24
Speaker 10: enforcement will not be able to help you.
34:26
Speaker 1: Two. Brian is Gibbons, Director Operations USPA Nationwide Security. This
34:33
Speaker 1: is his specialty. We are now hearing that ransom note verbatim.
34:39
Speaker 1: What do you make of it?
34:42
Speaker 5: Yeah, right off the cuff. You know, it's interesting to
34:45
Speaker 5: see the full text of the ransom note that was
34:48
Speaker 5: received by the various media outlets. Now, I do want
34:51
Speaker 5: to say one thing. We still haven't determined and law
34:54
Speaker 5: enforcement has not made a determination that this is indeed authentic. Right,
34:58
Speaker 5: So back to what Morgan Wright said, and I think
35:03
Speaker 5: he was spot on that some action has been taken
35:07
Speaker 5: based on Savannah's new video. So when we have the
35:11
Speaker 5: text of this original ransom note, some action in some
35:16
Speaker 5: communication in between potentially has been taken. That bitcoin wallet
35:20
Speaker 5: has been monitored by web sluice all over the country
35:24
Speaker 5: on a daily basis, So we know that no bitcoin
35:27
Speaker 5: transfer has been made of any substantial amount. So was
35:31
Speaker 5: there another action made?
35:33
Speaker 4: You know?
35:34
Speaker 5: And was there are there more communications?
35:37
Speaker 1: Now more of the ransom note verbatim.
35:41
Speaker 10: We did not fully grasp the seriousness of her physical conditions.
35:45
Speaker 10: We never intended to hurt her. That was not our intention.
35:49
Speaker 10: She perished shortly after she was taken. We believe it
35:53
Speaker 10: was heart related. She is buried in nature. Now, nothing
35:58
Speaker 10: you could have done could have changed the outcome. We
36:01
Speaker 10: are truly sorry. Verbidge, right, remember the usd the US dollars.
36:05
Speaker 5: Right.
36:05
Speaker 10: This is also a weird way of speaking. She perished
36:08
Speaker 10: shortly after she was taken. She is buried in nature.
36:12
Speaker 5: Now.
36:12
Speaker 10: It's just a little off. And I believe this maybe
36:18
Speaker 10: because the person reading the notes is foreign, English is
36:21
Speaker 10: their second language, or they are using like a translator
36:26
Speaker 10: to get their point across.
36:28
Speaker 1: That is Brionna Whitney on Crime Junkie reading the ransom
36:32
Speaker 1: note verbatim to Morgan Wright, joining US cybersecurity expert who
36:37
Speaker 1: actually trained the fbiicart team. Do you hear what she's
36:44
Speaker 1: saying about? Believing as many do, the purp is not
36:50
Speaker 1: the purpose a foreign national, which would explain why his DNA,
36:56
Speaker 1: if we have any, is not popping up in codis
36:59
Speaker 1: are now data bank?
37:03
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, going back to that note too. Here's
37:05
Speaker 7: the other thing too. We got to recognize too. They're
37:07
Speaker 7: sophisticated enough that even the power and the might. And
37:10
Speaker 7: look when I trained the FBI Computer Analysis Response Team
37:13
Speaker 7: twenty five twenty six years ago, they were just getting
37:16
Speaker 7: into Internet investigations. Now they are the masters of doing this.
37:19
Speaker 7: The fact that they have not been able, or at
37:22
Speaker 7: least publicly, we don't know that they've been able, to
37:24
Speaker 7: identify the center of this message gives you a level
37:27
Speaker 7: of sophistication, which then I want to be careful before
37:30
Speaker 7: we infer that they are that it's foreign. I can
37:34
Speaker 7: tell you on false flags operations I was involved in
37:36
Speaker 7: and some deceptive techniques that we used. You would word
37:40
Speaker 7: things to assign attribution to somebody else to make it
37:43
Speaker 7: look like it came from somebody else. So I don't
37:45
Speaker 7: want to read too much into this other than we
37:48
Speaker 7: get back to the point Nancy. And this is something
37:50
Speaker 7: I said before when I was on with you a
37:51
Speaker 7: couple times before. None of these notes have risen to
37:54
Speaker 7: an evidentiary level. In other words, if you really want
37:58
Speaker 7: to establish that you know Nancy is and that you
38:00
Speaker 7: have control of her, then send me a piece of
38:03
Speaker 7: her clothing that we can test. As as you were
38:07
Speaker 7: talking about, we can test the clothing for DNA to
38:09
Speaker 7: say Yep, that's Nancy's. You have now authenticated nothing yet
38:13
Speaker 7: has been authenticated to say these are genuine ransom notes. Now,
38:16
Speaker 7: they're very persuasive. They were written in such a way
38:19
Speaker 7: and they came shortly after. But think about this one
38:23
Speaker 7: of the elements where it says, well, the light outside
38:25
Speaker 7: is broken. You know, if I were going to write
38:27
Speaker 7: some kind of a ransom note, I would be very
38:29
Speaker 7: specific about what I found inside the house, simply saying
38:32
Speaker 7: that a watch was discarded by the bed. Okay, that
38:36
Speaker 7: kind of preceded any information we had about that. But
38:38
Speaker 7: I'm still looking for that evidentiary piece that says you
38:42
Speaker 7: have now established immutably that you have proprietary knowledge about
38:47
Speaker 7: Nancy Guthrie's location. And I was out there in Tucson
38:49
Speaker 7: for four days, so it is. It's hard packed. There's
38:52
Speaker 7: only three types of graves. You're going to find a
38:54
Speaker 7: clandestine grave site, which I doubt that it's going to be.
38:56
Speaker 7: It takes too much digging to do that. A concealed
38:59
Speaker 7: grave site. Body was dumped somewhere inside of a building
39:02
Speaker 7: or a structure, or an open or an open grave site.
39:05
Speaker 7: And if it was open, I think with all the
39:07
Speaker 7: attention by now they may have come across that considering
39:09
Speaker 7: all the other things. So this is one of the
39:12
Speaker 7: great mysteries. We are not really going to be able
39:14
Speaker 7: to divine what the actual intention is until we identify
39:17
Speaker 7: who the people are, and right now they're one up
39:19
Speaker 7: on the FBI. They have not, at least to publicly,
39:22
Speaker 7: the centers of the message have not been identified.
39:25
Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything about Missus
39:29
Speaker 1: Guthrie's disappearance, please dial toll free eight hundred two two
39:33
Speaker 1: five five three, two four, or if you wish to
39:36
Speaker 1: remain anonymous five two zero eight eight two seven four
39:41
Speaker 1: six three. There is a one point two plus million
39:45
Speaker 1: dollar reward for information leading to the discovery of Missus Guthrie.
39:53
Speaker 1: We remember American hero Sergeant William Cherry, Macon County Sheriffs,
39:58
Speaker 1: killed in the line of duty, leaving behind wife Alithia
40:03
Speaker 1: and son TJ. American hero Sergeant William Cherry. Thank you
40:10
Speaker 1: to our guest, but especially to you for being with
40:12
Speaker 1: us tonight in our search for miss Nancy Guthrie. Nancy
40:17
Speaker 1: Gray signing off for tonight, but I'll see you tomorrow night,
40:20
Speaker 1: and until then, good night, friend,