Latest / The Source – The Jorgensen Land & Cattle Podcast / Episode 9: Phenotype vs. Performance & an interview with Donnie Leddy
Transcript
- speaker-1: ⁓ Over a hundred years of experience lie in Ideal South Dakota. The team at Jorgensen Landon Cattle is going to take the time to offer insight into that experience along with many other industry experts. If you're ready to learn and grow, this is the Source. Welcome back to the Source, ladies and gentlemen. ⁓ today, ⁓ kind of a fun conversation. One of your favorite people that co-hosts this show with me, Cody Jorgensen, joining me again. Cody. ⁓ some rain an ideal last week and some sketchiness. speaker-0: Yeah, no doubt. Yeah, we did have some relief. Rain I'd say close to three inches over over the entire week. So ⁓ that part was awesome. It did get sketchy there a little bit. ⁓ had a tornado kind of touched down pretty too close for comfort, I'll say that. ⁓ but all was well, not not a lot of damage and so ⁓ we're happy for the moisture. speaker-1: Yes, sir. You bet. ⁓ Cody, glad you could join me today. ⁓ wanted to have kind of a different conversation than we've really had up to this point on this podcast. You know, we've talked a lot about cows and bulls, but but we've never never kind of dove into this, so ⁓ today I wanted to take a take a little time visit with you about about phenotype versus production when we when we talk about cows. And ⁓ for those of you joining us on YouTube. The first one to get who's behind me. I'm gonna send you a Jorgensen Landon Cattle hoodie, ⁓ to name who she is behind me. Those of you that are big fans of this program you'll know her. ⁓ but it's a young picture of her so it'll take some figuring on your end. so Cody would you just ⁓ just define what phenotype means to you speaker-0: Yeah, so you know, phenotype is is pretty ⁓ pretty cut and dry. obviously phenotype you know defines ⁓ a lot of things. In my mind, I when I think of phenotype, I think probably more about function. ⁓ I really think that functional cattle ⁓ are the key to a good phenotype and ⁓ you know, you gotta look at these cattle every day and you wanna be pleased at what you look at as is one thing, but I like to look at it in with respect to function and and what I mean by that, Jamie, is ⁓ you know, being able to walk a mile away from the water every day or twice a day and not and not have a problem doing that. You know, that's that's one thing. Or in a bull's case, being able to mount a cow on on its two back legs without tripping and falling off and breaking the tool. ⁓ you know, so you you think about it with that regard in terms of function and you know actual you know, having that ability to to do things ⁓ in the environment that that animal's put in. And so, you know, a lot of people think about phenotype, you know, clean fronted, upheaded, ⁓ you know, no tail head, ⁓ not too much set to their legs, depth of flank. all of these things, that is all very important stuff, no question about it. But all of those things I said ⁓ have when you look at it with respect to function ⁓ I think is where it really means something. speaker-1: Yeah, and and you know, Cody, I think we use we use words like phenotype, type and kind. ⁓ and and I think really what you're getting getting to is it ties back to structural correctness, ⁓ soundness, ⁓ correct in their utter structure, ⁓ you know, all those things that that actually ⁓ allow a cow to be a cow, right? Yeah. We're We're not talking about trying to win Denver. but they still they still have to have a have a look that you like to look at. speaker-0: Yep, it's it is one of those things where you know you're you spend so much time with these animals and and ⁓ it seems like when you go out and in the in the cow herd the one that always catches your eye is ⁓ well maybe the two that catch your eye, the the worst one phenotypically and the best one phenotypically. And ⁓ you're trying to land somewhere in between and and ⁓ again, ⁓ you know, I think cattlemen over generations, ⁓ you know, there for a long, long time. That's that's all all they had. is is ⁓ phenotypically things to look at like you know things that made their life easier for an for a good example is is utter structure. ⁓ we'll crave over the perfect udder well there's a there's a reason for that. It was so there were you know less trouble, right? Dealing with it that animal when she calved, you don't have to deal with with udders that cause you grief or cause the calf grief. And so So we've used phenotype to make progress before we had all of the data that we have access today. And it's just we're thankful that that we have both now. It it has to be a blend of some sort. And you know, you can ask the question, do you put more weight on phenotype or do you put more weight on on performance data or the genomics? And I think it used to be where you would you would pick your heifers first, for an example, based on phenotype, and then look at the data and narrow them down. Now I would contend that we should do that in reverse. I would I would say let's look at the the performance data, DNA, all the all the numbers on paper and build yourself a short you know, a short list and then go in there phenotypically and and pick the ones you want. speaker-1: And and you know, Cody, you you kinda took over the helm breeding at Jorgenson's in ninety seven, am I correct in that? So so at the time, EPDs were very much in their in their infancy, if I'm not mistaken. So you had you had phenotype and pedigree when you started breeding cattle, correct? Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. The the E P D's were definitely in full force, but we don't have near as many of them, right? You get the main four and that's what we looked at. ⁓ and so there's you you end up looking at a lot of just overall individual in herd performance data ratios and indexes and and so so yeah, it was more about phenotype and and I think I mean, people that know our program, that have been disciples for many, many years, longer than thirty years, probably can remember my grandfather. he wasn't all that excited about phenotypic data or phenotype you know, phenotype at all. I mean he he he always I've heard him say this before and I I disagreed. one of the few things I disagreed with him about, but I've heard him say that ⁓ you know if they can get up and walk to the bunk, that's all we really need. And he admitted he was wrong about that because, you know, consequently if you if you make selections on on things like that and not pay attention to to the phenotype, then all of a sudden And you're into a situation where you got bad feet and you got animals that may not have enough stifle and maybe too much set to their legs, things like this, and ⁓ we end up having somewhat of a problem phenotypically. And so I've for I've for twenty years, maybe longer, really worked on that sort sort of thing and ⁓ tried to get this covered kinda ⁓ phenotypically better, we'll say that. And I I think we've done that, Jamie. speaker-1: And and so let's let's go ahead and shift gears, Cody, you kinda led into it there. ⁓ let's talk a little bit about the production side of this equation. And you know, let's let's kinda talk about it in terms of the mama cow. ⁓ talk to me a little bit about you know ratios, nursing ratios, ⁓ birth weight ratios, and kinda how how you ab absorb that data speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: And and wanna look at it and what it means to you. speaker-0: Yeah. It it's a big piece to what we do. It's a it's a very large it's a very large ⁓ tool that we use, especially in the mother load breeding philosophy. you know, given that ⁓ we're putting s putting a lot of emphasis on on high producing performing mama cows. I think it was in the early two thousands, maybe right at two thousand. I I developed a report ⁓ that we use through ⁓ through Ames at the time we were using Ames. And I was able to take ⁓ an animal, one animal, and evaluate all fifteen of the mama cows in a five generation pedigree. And it would lay it out on one r on one report, on one ⁓ one quarter of one page. I had four animals on a page. And it would give me birth weight, you know, dam production in terms of birth weight ratio, weaning weight ratio, and yearling weight ratio. And if you could identify an animal there that had all fifteen of those mama cows above average in weaning or yearling, and below average in birth, you had what I call a straight A pedigree. And it was dang hard to do that. There was out of of those fifteen cows, there was always one or two that were at ninety eight or right at ninety nine, you know, maybe one that raised one calf at ninety five and then she was off, you know, off the ⁓ not in production anymore, but it was extremely hard to find to find an animal that had all fifteen of ⁓ Now we had ⁓ We found And we weren't just looking at cows, we're also looking at bulls. And when you can do that, when you look at you look at damn production on a five generation pedigree, all fifteen of those mama cows, and you can see that that they're all average, there might be th I I had ⁓ summarize that at the bottom of the at the page there. So you might have out of those fifteen cows, they might have raised, you know, thirty seven to fifty calves. And to have that many calves that at average five percent or seven percent above average, that's a predictable pedigree. Right. And I put a lot of emphasis on that. I used Dan production ⁓ and and her individual performance ⁓ and her grandmothers and her great grandmothers, you know, and and just looked at that and then also put bulls back in, as you as you can tell, ⁓ in our propaganda that we send out, that's the red number there when you look at Encore, I think he averages one ⁓ three. And all his daughters average 103 on all his weaning weight progeny. And those are those are big numbers, very, very predictable. speaker-1: Right. And so you start taking what we know about phenotype and what we know about production. And we have to have both, right? speaker-0: You have to have both. speaker-1: So so let's talk a little bit about the blend and the mesh, Cody, and and I'm I'm gonna bring up an individual here because he he's fascinating in this regard. And that's all star. Yeah. ⁓ that's the bullet ⁓ Wheeler Mountain picked last year. ⁓ that cow phenotypically, not the prettiest cow in the herd. But from a production standpoint, extremely, extremely productive. speaker-0: She cranked it, yeah, absolutely. And I and that is a good example. you know y you you have to have both and it's not that she was horrible, don't get it wrong. speaker-1: Exactly. speaker-0: Yeah. She wasn't the cow that's behind you there, but you know, she she's ⁓ she's the cow you would have picked on here and there. And ⁓ and and so I I think the the key to that is from a phenotypic standpoint, if you know where there might be a blemish and and it's relatively easy to fix with with the next breeding, yeah, then I think it's it's easy to fix that sort of thing. ⁓ you know how they complement each other. And so you would you you could easily easily fix it probably easier than you can fix taking a a below average female in terms of weaning weight production and getting her to to you know be above average. That's i it's much harder to to fix that in my opinion. And so ⁓ that you know you talk about an a a definite blend of of both is I mean you talk to any breeder and that they're gonna say the same thing. It the difference in breeders is is the way it's prioritized. Is it Do you do you do you look at that over everything and then go forward with the numbers? Or do you look at the numbers and then and then go forward with phenotype? And so that's up to everyone, you know, that's everyone's ⁓ decision. You know, even you can get at that at the commercial level too. You know, if you're if you're taking cattle to market and killing ⁓ on the rail, ⁓ then then what you know, other than you know, just having to look at ⁓ every day, why wouldn't you not just then, you know, genetically pick for just a hundred percent performance and terminal? And don't worry about what they look like. Or don't worry about the female. ⁓ and so it it depends on where you are in the marketplace, I would I would say. ⁓ but nevertheless a a blend of both is is very important. speaker-1: Right, right. And so, you know, you take what you're talking about with with looking at those pedigrees and you've built a matrix in of that layers of productivity. And especially when we look at the mother love program now and the cows that that have made it into that elite status of the embryo donors, you know, they have very, very good phenotype But they're also stacked of production. So so now if there is a tweak to make phenotypically, you do that with a mating. But but the production's already built in. Am I am I on base with that, Cody? speaker-0: Yeah. That's right. That is my that was and is still today my lifelong goal with this cow herd. I you know, and I think we've done that with with segregating these cows into their potential group, for example the varsity cows and the elite status cows. You you already have a very good built-in performance pedigree you know, generations of performance pedigrees, you know, ⁓ in there. And so from a performance standpoint, it it just shouldn't be they're all gonna be respectable, very good, average or above. And ⁓ then you're you're allowed to go in there from a phenotypic standpoint and really kinda fine tune that radio dial. And ⁓ once you get to that point, ⁓ It it's really fun. It's really fun because you're not you're not really fixing problems or you know, you're not really trying to corner a problem here and there. You're actually tweaking genetics to make ⁓ just just a little better. speaker-1: Right. Right. And so that as you start seeing different pedigree stacks, you're just you're making little adjustments now and that's across the whole herd with with your seven eight sisters and your three quarter sisters that, you know, probably probably both from a phenotype and a performance standpoint are very similar, ⁓ based upon their their pedigree and their genetic makeup and now it it's easier to take, you know, one bull back across them to move that population. speaker-0: That that is definitely that is one hundred percent the idea. The idea is to create predictable, uniform c females and be able to use two or three bulls across across the board and then continue to create that many more three quarter sibs or seven eighths however you want to look at it. And ⁓ it you know as long as you're going forward with the right kind and the right kind of performance, it's a it's a beautiful thing. speaker-1: And you know, Cody, I think you know we'll shift and talk just a little about bulls here as we're as we're kinda gonna gonna wrap this up. But the cow behind me is very interesting in that regard. when you start talking about all the sons, ⁓ phenotypically she has given you a lot of different options to use her. speaker-0: No doubt. Yeah. She she certainly has and I I think that's when you can really truly talk about a an elite status cow. She's she's definitely one of when you c she's what do we I think there was four or maybe five herd bulls that were five. Yep. That were you know, d directly out of that cow and you know di all from different lines ⁓ and so ⁓ it just gives you a huge, huge tool and if you really think about what that does on the set of calves that'll be coming in twenty twenty seven majority of those calves are gonna are gonna have her in that pedigree. And whenever you can get a cow like that in those pedigrees, i it's it just ch it changes things. speaker-1: Right. And and you just you go back to you have a little bit of a different phenotypic package a lot of different ways. Yeah. So if if you've got some some cows you wanna moderate and you've said it before on this podcast, the twenty nine sixteen Sky Mare Sun, you know, if you were gonna do what what Martin did back then he would be the one you would do it with. But if you wanted to moderate some cattle, ⁓ that's your choice if if you wanna add some length, add add some deep rib, you've got accolades standing there just right for the picking. ⁓ twenty two seventy two in a white tag amulus package the same the same way. ⁓ you can just use them so many different ways And still we've got the phenotype of her with the production to tie it all together to make the next generation. speaker-0: Yeah. And that's what's impressive. It's impressive that we're able to do that with one cow, honestly. One cow on five different sires and and I that's that would be a dream come true for most breeders and and it's awesome that I and I'm blessed to have that ability ⁓ to do that. So speaker-1: So let's let's go ahead and just just kinda touch on it, Cody, here when you're thinking about a an elite cow. You know, the cow that's gonna go to the flush pan, ⁓ you're gonna propagate a ton of her genetics. ⁓ we start talking about phenotype and production. ⁓ tell us a little bit about the bumpers there. speaker-0: Yeah, so For sure, if if she's gonna make the elite pen, she's already has the the production ⁓ in order. the more calves that she had naturally and raised naturally above average, the the better it is, the easier it is to determine the elite status. ⁓ as I mentioned before, looking at those fifteen cows in her in her five generation pedigree, ⁓ and having that predictable ⁓ that very, very predictable pedigree, ⁓ that's important to me. ⁓ it's not as easy as the guy thinks it is. But even ⁓ even even when you look at the maternal access line of cows, which is which is what you see in a lot of our our information that we send out. ⁓ just just being able to go back ten or eleven cows and most of those cows were probably donor cows at one time in their life. And so that that again is just a a major prediction that you can have with respect to performance. ⁓ and now then on top of that when you look at phenotype and you you know obviously you want to make sure that this cat this cow can can function and ⁓ functional cattle are are the backbone. Could you try again? Sorry about that. Are the backbone of of of what we do. And ⁓ you know, even when you think about a ⁓ a bull If it's not functional, then our our client's not happy. And so, you know, phenotype really, really helps us in that regard. And so ⁓ we can't say that phenotype is not important because it it is. It's very much important. But the way I like to look at it is I like to look at it with respect to function. speaker-1: do you think about it in keeping power in a place in the predigree and pretty in a place, Cody, does any of that ever ever cross your mind when you're speaker-0: It's not I don't think it's on purpose. It just it just happens ⁓ kind of by default and that's a hard one to ⁓ I d I don't like to make pretty. Right. Because when you're making pretty that means you're giving something else up. Right. I I think I think if you have a base of of cows that have had a long history of selection put on ⁓ speaker-1: Right. It just happens that way. speaker-0: ⁓ or the right phenotype. Right. I think you just by default end up with some pretty cows eventually. Right. I think we lose sight of the breeding program. speaker-1: Yeah. Right. And what's probably still, you know, to our commercial customers what's relevant to them. So yes, they they still have to have a look, but but if we don't have the production there that impacts their bottom line. speaker-0: Yeah. Exactly. I think that you know these at the end of the day, they tell me w keeping score is is being able to stay in business for generations and ⁓ in my opinion searching for something that that is pretty. You can't eat pretty, right? Right. You you eat pounds and it's all about mashing the scale down and so we gotta we gotta balance all that together. Yes, we want them pretty. Don't get me wrong. I don't want I want them to be, but ⁓ I don't want to I don't want that to dict dictate my my breeding selection path. speaker-1: Right. Well Cody, I think ⁓ I think we've given folks some things to think about as far as speaker-0: probably gonna get some some rebuttal on some of those com heads speaker-1: Absolutely we will and that's the fun of it, right? Right. ⁓ you know, but ⁓ I think it's something that that even even commercial producers, you know, ⁓ yes they need to have a look, ⁓ but this probably also it kind of ties into a keeping data, collecting data, ⁓ and even for for some commercial customers out there ⁓ individual data on your cow herd. It doesn't matter how pretty she is if she ratios ninety two every year. ⁓ or has a has a steer that that is the in that cut of three that they sell at the tail end of your load that that are off fifteen dollars from the rest of your steers. Right. ⁓ so I I think it's also a a good bid for for knowing and understanding what your cows are actually doing. speaker-0: Yeah, exactly. I I again I think I think phenotype ⁓ just to sum this up is very, very important. I think in the past it's probably been you know, used first in the selection criteria and I would recommend that it's it's used second today. I would say start make your short list with you know, especially on heifer replacement, make your short list with ⁓ the data. Yep. genomics, ⁓ what have you, and then phenotype after that. speaker-1: I love it. Thank you for your time, Cody. Very much appreciate it. And ⁓ like I said, let me know who she is. We've given all the hints in the world away. ⁓ first person that gets that on YouTube, I'm gonna send you a hoodie. ⁓ we'll be in touch with you. thank you again, Cody, for your time. We very much appreciate ya and we will catch you guys next time. speaker-0: Thank you. speaker-1: Folks, I am at Florida Cattlemans and ⁓ had to come clear to Florida to find a good South Dakota friend. ⁓ Mr. Don Leedy. Am I correct in that, Donnie? Yep, Don Leedy. Yep. ⁓ with Cattle Business Weekly. today, ⁓ just happened to catch Donnie and he gets to be the face at a lot of bull sales. spinning bids and I kinda wanted him to jump on and just just tell us a little bit about how he got there. So ⁓ Donnie give me give me a little bit of your background and then lead into ⁓ what you do for Cattle Business Weekly. speaker-0: Well, kind of a little bit of background. Grew up in northeastern South Dakota, still live there, ⁓ still live on the family farm. My my kids are the fifth generation and and ⁓ great place to live. after college I worked for the Charlet Association for around fifteen years and then started the cattle business weekly and you know it it people ask about working and and when you enjoy what you do it's never work. speaker-1: ⁓ absolutely. speaker-0: You can work 365 days a year if you enjoy what you're doing and and ⁓ it's the people in the cattle business that probably make it the most fun. had never been to the Florida Cattlemans, heard a lot about it. There is a truly amazing amount of people here at this facility. It's it's it's interesting that they can draw six, seven hundred people for a three-day event and ⁓ it's first class, as is the resort. speaker-1: ⁓ my god. Yes, sir. This is this is a wonderful ⁓ my first trip down as well. ⁓ Jorgensen's have been coming for several years, but extremely impressed with with what they're doing in Florida. so when you started Kettle Business Weekly, what was what was the goal? speaker-0: Three men just yeah. No so twenty years ago the cattle business was a lot different. ⁓ There was there was a number of sales in the spring but but there's significantly more now. And I'd say twenty years ago a lot of the sales would have averaged two thousand twenty five hundred dollars. Yes, sir. And ⁓ and a lot of them that didn't even average that. I know when I first started with Charlet, if we averaged thousand, twelve, thirteen hundred dollars in the early nineties, that was a lot of money. And how things have changed. Yes sir. It's this this spring was was definitely a record. We had put together some numbers, ⁓ our staff did and and we went to roughly two hundred and eighty-three seed stock sales from January through May. And ⁓ in those sales we had roughly twenty six thousand eight hundred and some bulls that averaged twelve thousand fifty nine dollars. Which is is crazy to think of a few even just a few years ago. speaker-1: ⁓ yes, sir, we're living in in unprecedented times to say the least. speaker-0: No kidding, exactly. You know, and but what's probably more interesting than that is in today's market it probably takes fewer feeder cattle or fewer way up bulls to actually buy a good herd. speaker-1: Yeah, no, absolutely. ⁓ actually been doing some research on on my own with with another gentleman that's in on the ⁓ in insurance side and we actually did the math and it's scary how close region averages on bull sales gets to what the old five winged calves is what you should spend for a bull. Right. That speaker-0: Right. speaker-1: That number actually shocked me as to just how it was within two or three hundred dollars of what an average was again. speaker-0: You know, and I would say in our region last year, steers and heifers, we probably probably averaged in that twenty-three, twenty four hundred dollar range. Some of the earlier cattle were a little less money and some of them were twenty-seven, twenty-eight hundred. Yep. But now it looks like and it feels like we're gonna add to that even more this summer. speaker-1: Yeah. I yeah. I've given up trying to even think about where it's gonna go, Donnie. It speaker-0: Well, when you can sell sixteen, seventeen, eighteen hundred dollar day old bottle calves, you know the business is good. speaker-1: Right, right. So tell me a little bit about Cattle Business Weekly as far as on the seed stock side, what you guys do for the producers that are having sales, Donnie. speaker-0: So we we've got a a staff of ⁓ of gentlemen that live around the around the region. Andy Rest lives in Billings and kind of covers the western part. We've got Jory Boot in ⁓ North Dakota. Trenton Soliday lives in Valentine, Nebraska, and then Ryan Castile lives out near Sturgis, and then my son Caden and I. We kind of work together going to the sales ⁓ in the spring. You know, they'll start there in January and and February and March and April are quite busy and then finish up in May. Yes, sir. but it it's it I think going to bull sales this spring, people go not just to do business, but a lot of it is a social aspect. So the The they go to buy bulls and do business but they also go to enjoy themselves and and and the camaraderie among the other other cattle people. speaker-1: Or you know, it you think about it, it with the internet today and our sales that way, it would be way easier to just stay home and buy bulls. speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, yeah, and that's that's for sure. The the the internet we still see a lot of people bid on the internet. but but honestly I think this spring most days I would say our crowds were bigger. But the internet allows you if if if you can't be there that day, ⁓ you could go look at the bulls ahead of time and then buy Yeah. Buy ⁓ off the internet. speaker-1: But I I think to your point, I think people come to the sales and yeah, they're there to buy bulls, but they come to see people that they only see once a year. Relationships that they've built of folks, you know, take Jorgensen's for instance, there's probably a couple of folks in the room from Kansas, Montana, maybe somebody from Florida, you know, those folks only see each other once a year. speaker-0: We agree with that a hundred percent. Th that's exactly right. You know, and Jorgensons would have a sale in the spring and then another sale in the fall and it might be the two times of the year that that people from Kansas and North Dakota and South Dakota all get to see one another. speaker-1: Or yeah, you know, and that you just kinda look around and you take, you know, a Shawfangus Valley for instance and I would bet eighty percent of the people in the crowd aren't there to buy a bull. But they're there because everybody comes to Shawfangus Valley and it's as much about the networking time that you spend with your with your fellow. speaker-0: That that would be an example of there wouldn't be just people from North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska. There's probably twenty some thirty states represented at that sale. speaker-1: Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. So tell me a little bit, Donnie, about how your role works at a sale and and how you work with auctioneers, ⁓ because ⁓ your team sees a lot of different auctioneers throughout the year, a lot of different sales setups. Kinda talk about that ringman side of what you guys bring and and how that really helps us sale. speaker-0: So we would work with six or eight different auctioneers, I would say, across our region throughout the winter and spring. ⁓ you know, basically for us at the Cattle Business Weekly, we've got a great staff of gals in the office and and that work from home. They they do everything from putting catalogs together to putting marketing programs together, utilize print media, utilize some digital and social media type advertising. we probably do, I think Courtney and and her staff, they put together around fifty, fifty five catalogs a year. Okay. And that's changed a lot over time. you know, I know in our part of the world people look forward to getting a catalog so that they can go through it prior to the sale. Yes. and I don't know that we're gonna see that change where they can just go online. Now it has changed with D V auction and some of the other ⁓ line auctions where they can study the catalogs and more importantly they can study the videos of the bulls before the before the sale. So ⁓ and then the rest of our sale day, you know, we're there to help assist whether it's if somebody can't be there and needs to be on the phone or take bids, it's kind of a full service speaker-1: Online plan. Yes, sir. speaker-0: full service group effort. Usually there's there would be the Angus Fieldman and and three or four other publication representatives that assist the auctioneer in the the conduct of the auction. Yep. And then after that we we do a post sale report that we print print on in our paper each week as well as put it online. speaker-1: Yep. And you know, you guys as a a group of representatives for whether it's Angus or different publications, you guys have to be pretty tight because you guys see each other a lot throughout the year. speaker-0: The month of February I we see each other more than we see the rest of our family, I'll guarantee ya. And ⁓ and March and April. But you know, we're competitors but it's friendly competition and it it takes a team effort. I mean it doesn't i if you're marketing, you know, take for instance your organization, Jorgensen Landing Cattle. Yes sir. If they didn't have a team put together to market the bulls, it wouldn't it wouldn't be where it's at today. Exactly. speaker-1: Exactly. speaker-0: So assembling a really good team around you is is very important no matter what you do. speaker-1: Yeah, and I think, you know, that sales staff on sale day, I had to laugh. at at our sale this year, we're at like lot one fifteen and the internet goes out. And I'm going, ⁓ goodness, we just lost all the prime that we had and we are gonna be four or five bulls before we get the heat back. And between Roger Jacobs behind the mic and the guys turning bids, as soon as it popped back up, they brought the energy back to where it was and kept right on rolling. And I'm su I'm sure you've seen that over the years, Donnie, where something happens, you can't get a bull out of the ring, and it just wrecks your pace. speaker-0: Yeah, over over the you know, since I've been doing this since nineteen ninety one, I've seen about everything you can imagine around that can happen at an auction from a a bull getting out of the ring which can cause a real disturbance to you know, actually I was at a sale one day where a bull died in the ring and that didn't work out very well at all. But ⁓ you know, i anything can happen. But it it's your auctioneer, your ring staff, keeping the energy up and and quite honestly This year you could tell on some sales when we got up to a certain price level, people got a little nervous of what they were actually bidding because that was totally uncharted territory. So speaker-1: Yeah. You're going, Am I really in? And is is that really the value that I'm gonna give for this bull? speaker-0: That's right. But then they're gonna say the same thing this fall when they get the check for their cab. Yeah. It in and and moving forward the question of are we expanding our cow herd or our cow numbers, you know, I guess time will tell on that. But you know, personally I don't think we've got the land, the grass land to run the cows or the labor to help run the cows. speaker-1: Absolutely. Absolutely. speaker-0: And another interesting point I think is right now, you know, if you've got a family and their son is back and daughter in law and they were running seven or eight hundred cows, well now they can run five or six hundred cows and actually generate more money off those five or six hundred and not have to worry about the extra ones, the extra labor, some extra leased grass. so the the price of a an actual steer heifer calf in the fall is is ⁓ probably gonna limit some of our herd expansion. Yep. And you know right now the way up market, it doesn't matter if it's bulls or or cows that lose their calves, it's pretty hard to justify keeping them around. speaker-1: Yeah, those guys that spent twelve thousand on on Yearland Bulls this spring when they took the five and six year olds to town, they put a pretty good dent in what they spent on those bulls. speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, right now it it wouldn't be the worst time to have two or three potloads of way up bulls that weigh about twenty five hundred pounds. speaker-1: You know, it it's a good time to have to have a set of ⁓ that are aged out and it's time to get rid of ⁓ and you know, if you can if you've got corn in a bin and you can feed ⁓ an extra sixty days and pounds are gonna pay on that deal right now. speaker-0: Th that that's a that's exactly right. That's exactly right. speaker-1: So I wanna let you go, Donnie, but tell the folks where they can find the cattle business weekly if they want more information, ⁓ and kinda where the public speaker-0: Well the Cattle Business Lee Weekly, we're based out of Phillips, South Dakota. Our office is right there on Main Street. ⁓ I live near Stockholm, South Dakota where I grew up. But we're a regional publication. you can go to Cattle Businessweekly dot com or you know, Courtney in our office ⁓ is a great person, does a great job, runs the staff there. The local phone number there is six ⁓ five eight five nine two zero two two. reach out to us at any time. We we enjoy working with good people and good cattle and and ⁓ it's a fun time to be in the cattle business. speaker-1: Absolutely. Thank you so much for your time, Donnie. I appreciate it. speaker-0: Appreciate it. Thank you.