Latest / Inside Politics / A case of 'burger diplomacy' for Trump, while Barnaby Joyce puts his beef aside to oppose net zero

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A case of 'burger diplomacy' for Trump, while Barnaby Joyce puts his beef aside to oppose net zero · Inside Politics

0:01
S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
0:03
S1: This is inside politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley, it's Friday, July 25th.
0:10
S1: This week we witnessed a democratic festival in the form
0:13
S1: of the opening of the 48th Parliament.
0:19
S2: The call to the honourable the Prime Minister.
0:21
S3: Well, thanks very much, Mr. Speaker.
0:24
S1: Prime Minister Anthony Albanese's dominance of the House of Representatives
0:28
S1: is undeniable. A newish opposition leader, Sussan Ley, faces a
0:31
S1: huge challenge in cementing her authority over a fractious coalition
0:35
S1: set to have a big argument over its climate policy,
0:38
S1: with the nationals looking like they're set to ditch any
0:41
S1: commitment to net zero emissions by 2050.
0:46
S4: By ourselves, that has no effect on the climate. It's insane.
0:51
S1: But Albanese also faces tricky terrain. This week, the government
0:54
S1: lifted a ban on US beef imports to Australia, leaving
0:58
S1: Albanese open to suggestions he's capitulated to pressure from US
1:02
S1: President Donald Trump, and soon the PM will have to
1:04
S1: decide on the Australian government's interim 2035 emissions reduction target.
1:10
S1: Joining me today we have the original gang back together.
1:13
S1: We've got Paul Satchell hot off the plane from China
1:16
S1: where he was with the PM last week. He is
1:18
S1: our very own chief political correspondent. Hello, Paul.
1:21
S5: Hey. It was hot off the plane. China was very
1:24
S5: hot when we arrived in Chengdu, which is this massive
1:29
S5: city in the western province of Sichuan. It was like mid-afternoon,
1:34
S5: I think it was 37 or 38 degrees in the air,
1:37
S5: and the real feel was 48.
1:39
S1: Oh my gosh, I don't even I can't even imagine
1:41
S1: what that feels like.
1:42
S5: It was the hottest afternoon I've ever felt when we
1:44
S5: went to a tennis court in the blaring sun, where
1:47
S5: Chinese officials gave very long speeches which needed to be
1:50
S5: translated at the same time, so to say. We were
1:53
S5: sweating through our t shirts and yeah, um, and and
1:57
S5: struggling would be an understatement. But it was a great trip.
1:59
S1: It was grueling. Well, we really enjoyed your reporting. Just
2:02
S1: quickly behind the scenes, how was Anthony Albanese sort of
2:05
S1: demeanor when he was on the trip? Because when he
2:07
S1: first became prime minister, there was criticism that he didn't
2:09
S1: have a lot of well, he had sort of no
2:10
S1: international experience. How is he now in these big diplomatic trips?
2:14
S1: Is he more relaxed?
2:15
S5: Well, I don't think when he came to the prime ministership,
2:19
S5: he was immediately seen as someone who would be comfortable
2:21
S5: on the international stage. He's never had a portfolio in
2:24
S5: the economic, security or foreign affairs spaces. He's an infrastructure
2:28
S5: guy before coming, becoming leader. So I don't think people
2:32
S5: thought it would come naturally to him. But I think
2:34
S5: to his credit, and he would argue, and the government
2:36
S5: does argue, that he's had an unexpected number of wins
2:40
S5: on the international stage. There's been this period of stabilization
2:43
S5: with China, which is now potentially moving into a phase
2:46
S5: of even greater warmth. There's been close knit ties with Indonesia,
2:50
S5: which the government is really proud of. A key regional ally.
2:53
S5: He's extracted a number of Australians from detention, including Cheng
2:57
S5: Lei from China last year.
2:59
S1: He got some people out of the clink in Indonesia too,
3:01
S1: didn't he?
3:02
S5: Yeah he did. So? So there are some things to
3:04
S5: hang your hat on there. And on the China trip
3:06
S5: he was particularly after the meetings with Chinese officials, including
3:12
S5: the president and premier, on the Tuesday, which was, I think,
3:14
S5: the third day of the trip. He was in quite
3:16
S5: a relaxed and really vibrant mood on the plane back
3:20
S5: when I interviewed him, he was wearing a Joy Division
3:23
S5: t shirt. He was very relaxed and he was speaking
3:25
S5: quite effusively about the trip and not, not not really.
3:28
S5: Not really playing into the criticism from conservatives back home
3:31
S5: that he might be cuddling up a little too closely
3:33
S5: with an autocrat.
3:34
S1: Yeah. Um, band t shirt. Albo is relaxed. Albo. Let's
3:39
S1: move on to this week. Of course, there is one,
3:41
S1: you know, a particular diplomatic international diplomatic trip on which
3:44
S1: he has not gone, and a particular ally which has
3:47
S1: not invited him to visit. And we all know who
3:49
S1: that is. But there was some movement this week on
3:52
S1: that front. On Thursday, the news broke that the Australian
3:54
S1: government has lifted a ban on beef imports from the
3:57
S1: United States. This is something that the Trump administration has
4:00
S1: been lobbying for and cross about for quite some time,
4:02
S1: that we have had a ban on US beef imports.
4:05
S1: Why did we lift this ban now? Is the timing suspicious?
4:08
S5: The trade minister, Don Farrell, on Thursday morning insisted there
4:12
S5: was nothing suspicious about it. This is just a scientific
4:15
S5: review that's been going on for five years, and the
4:18
S5: five year culmination just happened to come in the key
4:21
S5: period of months when Australia is negotiating with the US.
4:24
S5: You want to jump in, Jackie?
4:25
S1: Well, and this scientific review is basically about the fact
4:28
S1: that Australia has always felt that the United States doesn't
4:31
S1: have the right biosecurity structures in place to stop us
4:34
S1: getting nasty diseases from cows from the US, specifically mad
4:38
S1: cow disease. That's my very, very brief and simplistic understanding
4:44
S1: of Australian biosecurity laws.
4:46
S5: There hasn't there's been there was this long standing US
4:49
S5: restriction based on an outbreak of mad cow disease many
4:52
S5: years ago. There hasn't actually been a formal ban for
4:56
S5: about 5 or 6 years. But no US beef has
5:00
S5: been imported into Australia because of these barriers around whether
5:05
S5: we can in Australia, abide by our own really strict
5:07
S5: traceability rules for cattle that's born in Canada or Mexico
5:11
S5: but slaughtered in the US. Our officials have been over
5:13
S5: there for many, many months now, trying to test if
5:17
S5: the US has put restrictions around their biosecurity that are
5:20
S5: sufficient for our own purposes. And in recent months, it's
5:25
S5: become clear that there was a positive trajectory in that review.
5:27
S5: And when we wrote a story a month ago on
5:30
S5: this topic, it was very much framed to us as
5:33
S5: a carrot for the US administration. Donald Trump has talked
5:38
S5: about how Australia blocks US beef. It's something that annoys him,
5:41
S5: and it was pitched to us as something that could
5:43
S5: be used in the tariff negotiations reported today by the
5:46
S5: Australian Financial Review, that that decision was finalised. But the
5:49
S5: government line, whenever a minister stands up to talk on
5:52
S5: the issue, they are not going near linking the tariff
5:56
S5: talk with the with the biosecurity challenge.
5:58
S1: Okay. But let's talk about the realpolitik, because the Prime
6:01
S1: Minister has talked a pretty big game in the past,
6:03
S1: particularly during the election campaign, about acting always in Australia's
6:07
S1: interests when it comes to pressure from the Trump administration.
6:11
S1: Have they bowed to pressure here in a way or thought? Look,
6:13
S1: we can give them this in the hope that it
6:16
S1: will stand us in good stead for broader tariff negotiations
6:19
S1: with the US.
6:20
S5: We've already seen the coalition come out and the nationals leader,
6:23
S5: David Littleproud, who's obviously someone with interest in in on
6:27
S5: the cattle side of things and taking the taking the
6:29
S5: side of farmers, they've come out and called this an
6:32
S5: act of appeasement of Donald Trump and that the Prime
6:35
S5: Minister is trying to play catch up in the relationship
6:36
S5: with the US. He hasn't met Donald Trump, and now
6:38
S5: he's reached for a an easy win that compromises Australian agriculture.
6:44
S5: I think the government would say that that criticism is
6:47
S5: over the top, that this was low hanging fruit where
6:50
S5: the government had a had had an option to give
6:53
S5: the US something that it wanted, something that plays into
6:56
S5: Trump's personal set of grievances. He's he's a guy who's,
7:00
S5: you know, spent part of his campaign flipping burgers at McDonald's.
7:04
S5: He loves McDonald's burgers. Australian beef is used in US burgers,
7:07
S5: so he would wonder why they can't sell beef into Australia. Yeah,
7:11
S5: this is something that might play into the way the
7:12
S5: president thinks about the world. To cut a deal. And
7:15
S5: the Australians are pretty confident that it's not something that's
7:18
S5: going to hurt our biosecurity rules. So I think they
7:20
S5: would argue this is low hanging fruit that gives us
7:22
S5: a little win or a little chance of a win.
7:23
S1: It's burger diplomacy.
7:25
S5: Burger diplomacy.
7:26
S1: We found the we found the soft spot in Trump's
7:29
S1: otherwise very hard exterior.
7:31
S5: Panders to cattle.
7:33
S1: These little Mexican cows that we're going to be eating. Okay.
7:36
S1: Let's talk about the pomp and ceremony of parliament opening
7:38
S1: this week. It was the 48th Parliament opened, and that's
7:41
S1: always a few special days in Canberra. The Governor-General addresses
7:45
S1: both houses.
7:46
S6: Blackrod, please let the members of the House of Representatives
7:49
S6: know that I desire their attendance in the Senate.
7:52
S1: The lower house MPs go to the Senate and they
7:54
S1: all crowd in together on the benches. The usher of
7:57
S1: the Black Rod comes into the house and grabs them all.
8:00
S6: Mr. speaker, the usher of the Black Rod, with a
8:03
S6: message from Her Excellency.
8:04
S1: The have that they do that thing where they pretend
8:07
S1: to drag the speaker to the chair. There are all
8:09
S1: these beautiful ancient traditions from our British parliamentary history. But
8:13
S1: I suppose the big story of the week for this
8:15
S1: 48th Parliament is the enormous disparity between the numbers on
8:19
S1: the government bench and the numbers on the opposition bench.
8:22
S1: So I just wanted to ask you about how that
8:25
S1: played out atmospherically, and also how Susan Lee went as
8:30
S1: the opposition leader in her first sort of formal week
8:33
S1: in that role in the Parliament.
8:35
S5: Yeah, everyone had been flagging in the lead up to these,
8:38
S5: to this first week that the optics of the huge
8:41
S5: government benches and the diminished oppositions would be quite striking. And,
8:45
S5: you know, it's almost a cliche to say it now,
8:47
S5: but it really was. The feeling in the building this
8:51
S5: week is really palpable around the opposition just not having
8:55
S5: the same heft as last term. It lacks a figurehead
8:59
S5: leader in Peter Dutton, who is clearly, um, hugely discredited
9:02
S5: now because of the election result. But for much of
9:04
S5: last term at least, the press gallery political bubble narrative
9:10
S5: was that he was ascendant. Parliament felt like a place
9:13
S5: where the opposition would often have the government on the
9:16
S5: back foot. They were nowhere near as small as they
9:18
S5: are now, and the Prime Minister had some really tough weeks. Instead,
9:21
S5: this week we have what feels really like a procession
9:24
S5: for the government's massive win in May. There's three bills
9:28
S5: on the agenda, all of which are relatively non-controversial and
9:31
S5: popular for labor, being around, um, boosting childcare safety penalty
9:35
S5: rates and the HECS 20% fee cut. And the government
9:39
S5: made a call to not even talk about the contentious
9:42
S5: element of its agenda around superannuation tax. They're deferring that
9:45
S5: for another sitting fortnight because what they want to do
9:48
S5: in this fortnight is get through these bits of legislation
9:50
S5: which they key popular promises, as well as do all
9:54
S5: of the maiden speeches for the new members. So it
9:57
S5: really does feel like a moment where the government is
10:00
S5: basking in its win and the opposition and talking. So
10:03
S5: to have such a long answer, but talking to some
10:05
S5: of the opposition members this week in private, this this sounds, um,
10:10
S5: sounds terrible to say, but, you know, they're in this
10:12
S5: building and I think some of them are questioning their
10:15
S5: place in politics. They're wondering, you know, where they go next.
10:19
S5: They're wondering if they're in the same situation three years
10:21
S5: from now, after the next election, whether they've made the
10:23
S5: right choice in their career. There are some really existential
10:26
S5: questions being asked in the coalition environment.
10:28
S1: Yeah, none of which I think is good for democracy.
10:30
S1: I mean, I know that's sort of quite an earnest
10:33
S1: thing to say, but democracy does thrive and the Parliament
10:36
S1: does thrive when you have a really strong opposition. Let's
10:39
S1: move on to the opposition, because whatever tentative peace there
10:42
S1: may have been at the beginning of the parliamentary week,
10:45
S1: it was quickly broken by Barnaby Joyce and Michael McCormack,
10:48
S1: both former nationals leaders, who made it pretty clear that
10:52
S1: they're going to make David Littleproud's life difficult with their
10:56
S1: opposition to net zero by 2050. Paul, tell us about
11:00
S1: the mischief that they were making.
11:02
S5: Yeah, quite the way to start the first sitting day
11:05
S5: of Parliament by those two former nationals leaders.
11:08
S7: The new dream team, the dream couple, the member for
11:10
S7: New England, the member for Riverina are out there this
11:12
S7: morning backing each other in, the member for Riverina said
11:16
S7: on The Kieran Gilbert Show where virile and we're out there.
11:20
S5: McCormack and Joyce, obviously, both of them former deputy prime
11:22
S5: ministers under the last coalition government, they've been pushed to
11:25
S5: the outer fringes of the National Party by the current leader,
11:28
S5: David Littleproud. There's so much personal history between this trio.
11:35
S5: When Barnaby Joyce was leader in the mid part of
11:37
S5: last decade, he promoted David Littleproud, who was quite a
11:40
S5: new MP at the time, ahead of many others of
11:42
S5: his colleagues into the cabinet. Joyce really rated Littleproud. They
11:46
S5: then had a falling out. McCormack took the leadership after
11:49
S5: Joyce had an issue with impregnating a staffer who is
11:53
S5: now his wife, and then Joyce subsequently toppled McCormack after
11:59
S5: a period of severe undermining. So you'd think that McCormack
12:02
S5: and Joyce wouldn't have much to do with each other.
12:03
S5: But over the last term of Parliament, there was quite
12:06
S5: a lot of dissatisfaction with David Littleproud's leadership. And Joyce
12:10
S5: and McCormack kind of came together over the last term,
12:13
S5: started to chat outside of Parliament. They would see each
12:16
S5: other around their electorates. I think they spent a bit
12:17
S5: of time with each other in the election campaign.
12:19
S1: That's nice. So they had a sort of rapprochement.
12:21
S5: They had a rapprochement and they've become kind of friendly.
12:26
S5: They both don't have much love for the leader. Neither
12:28
S5: of them have the numbers in the party room. This
12:30
S5: is crucial. And they acknowledge that Barnaby Joyce certainly doesn't.
12:32
S1: He's very, very clearly, um, and obviously not ruled out
12:37
S1: because he was asked that question quite directly whether or
12:38
S1: not he wants to become the leader again. And he
12:40
S1: was pretty. I mean, it was pretty obvious he didn't
12:42
S1: rule it out and he didn't deny it at all. Um,
12:45
S1: so okay, so we've got these two former enemies or
12:47
S1: former nemeses joining together to basically try to topple net zero.
12:51
S1: Where does this leave Susan Lee? Obviously, the liberals are
12:54
S1: now having a complete policy review of all the policies
12:57
S1: they took to the election, which includes the commitment to
12:59
S1: net zero by 2050. The nationals are having a separate
13:03
S1: review of the net zero by 2050 commitment. But it's
13:05
S1: being done, crucially by Matt Canavan, who's one of the
13:08
S1: sort of most pro-mining, most anti-climate change members in Parliament.
13:14
S1: Is it possible that they're going to end up like
13:16
S1: the liberals and the nationals will have a completely different
13:19
S1: policy stance?
13:20
S5: It's an it's an open question and it's a it's
13:22
S5: a real prospect. The National Party process is it's pretty
13:26
S5: clear where that's heading. Littleproud yesterday in responding to this,
13:30
S5: Joyce and McCormack push, which was revealed in The Australian,
13:33
S5: effectively said that the review that Matt Canavan and his
13:36
S5: colleague Ross Caddell are conducting will speak to some experts
13:39
S5: to justify that net zero was a huge burden on
13:42
S5: the economy and to regional communities, and he said he
13:45
S5: said net zero was an impossibility. It's burdening us. It's
13:48
S5: not good for the country. So it's clear where the
13:50
S5: National Party is going Unless something radical changes there, it
13:53
S5: looks like they will drop their commitment to net zero,
13:55
S5: at least in its current form. The Liberal Party process
13:58
S5: is much less clear. There are very strong views on
14:01
S5: either side. You had Victorian Senator Jane Hume, a leading moderate.
14:05
S5: Potentially leading is a is a is a poor set
14:07
S5: of words because she's quite diminished after the election. But
14:10
S5: a strong a strong voice on the moderate side say
14:12
S5: that net zero is critical to winning seats in the
14:14
S5: inner city. It's effectively a proxy for whether a party
14:18
S5: is seen as believing in climate change and and viewing
14:22
S5: that as an issue of substance.
14:23
S1: And wouldn't you also say a proxy, particularly in those
14:26
S1: inner metropolitan seats that the liberals absolutely need to win
14:29
S1: back to have a path to government? It's sort of
14:32
S1: a proxy for whether or not your party is in
14:34
S1: keeping with sort of contemporary views on climate change and
14:37
S1: also able to access the votes of younger people in particular.
14:43
S1: And I would say more broadly, most women and these
14:47
S1: are the two cohorts that the that the liberals have
14:50
S1: particularly struggled with totally.
14:51
S5: And Susan Lee is is of that of a similar view,
14:55
S5: as are a lot of her key supporters, including Alex
14:59
S5: Hawke and Andrew Bragg and kind of people in the
15:01
S5: center and to the moderate side of the Liberal Party.
15:03
S5: But then on the other side of the of the
15:05
S5: Liberal Party, you know, non non fringe politicians such as
15:09
S5: Andrew Hastie, for example, a future leadership contender, no doubt
15:13
S5: has been telling colleagues in recent days that the party
15:15
S5: does need to dump net zero. Right. And you know,
15:18
S5: he's he's not someone who I don't think he's ever
15:21
S5: made utterances that indicate that he doesn't believe in climate change.
15:23
S5: He's just someone who holds the view that the world
15:26
S5: is shifting in a different direction. You see the Trump
15:28
S5: administration turn towards fossil fuels, really rocky trajectories to green energy.
15:32
S5: In Europe. They see energy prices rising. And they say,
15:35
S5: why should we be doing so much when developing countries
15:38
S5: like China are going to emit as much greenhouse gas
15:41
S5: between now and 2049, I think, as the US has
15:43
S5: done in its history. So there there are strongly held views,
15:46
S5: even in the mainstream of the Liberal Party.
15:48
S1: Yeah. Okay. So there is an there is an argument,
15:50
S1: I suppose, or a view within the Liberal Party, that
15:53
S1: you could use this as a product differentiation sort of issue,
15:56
S1: and you could make it an economic argument entirely, an
15:58
S1: economic argument, i.e. that the costs of transitioning to net
16:02
S1: zero and transitioning entirely to renewables is going to be
16:05
S1: borne too much by the Australian consumer, and particularly people
16:08
S1: who can't afford it, like pensioners, pensioners and so on.
16:11
S1: So let's talk about the Prime Minister, the labor side now,
16:14
S1: because the government is actually going to have to make
16:16
S1: its own decision on net zero or our pathway to
16:19
S1: net zero pretty soon, in the next few weeks, the
16:21
S1: Climate Change Authority will deliver its decision on what the
16:24
S1: interim 2035 emissions target reduction target should be. So basically
16:29
S1: where we need to be by 2035, if we're even
16:31
S1: going to get close to net zero by 2050. Um,
16:34
S1: you reported this week that it's probably going to be
16:36
S1: in the order of 65 to 75% recommended cuts. How
16:40
S1: is Albanese going to handle this politically? It will cost money.
16:44
S1: It will cost the consumer. Energy prices will go up,
16:47
S1: at least in the short term. Is this a political
16:50
S1: risk for the government?
16:50
S5: Well, this should be one of the key lines of
16:55
S5: attack from the coalition on Labour. That puts the government
16:58
S5: in a really tricky position. The transition to green energy
17:01
S5: across the world is really bumpy. Australia is doing a
17:04
S5: pretty good job at getting towards its 2030 target, but
17:06
S5: it probably won't quite get there. 2035 target will be
17:09
S5: difficult again. There is. There is difficulty in gaining social
17:14
S5: licence for big renewable projects in the country where solar
17:17
S5: and wind farms need to go. The backlash was nowhere
17:20
S5: near as severe in some of these seats as the
17:21
S5: coalition kind of made out before the election, but there's
17:25
S5: no doubt that the shift towards a green future is
17:27
S5: not easy at all, leads to high prices in the
17:30
S5: short or medium term, that there's hope that that will
17:33
S5: abate over time. But if the coalition had a clear
17:36
S5: policy of its own and wasn't so racked with disunity
17:39
S5: about whether, in essence, whether there is man made climate change,
17:43
S5: because there's quite a few people on the right of
17:45
S5: that party who just don't believe that and don't believe
17:47
S5: that anything much should be done about it. If it
17:49
S5: wasn't so racked by instability on its own side, it
17:53
S5: could mount a clear argument to say the government is
17:56
S5: moving too quickly towards a renewable future, and that's costing
17:58
S5: Australians money. Now the government has a decision to make
18:02
S5: on its 2035 target. Matt Kean, the former Liberal treasurer
18:06
S5: of New South Wales, who was handpicked by Chris Bowen
18:09
S5: to run the Climate Change Authority, is quite close to
18:12
S5: delivering his advice to government, which will, I think give
18:15
S5: a range of somewhere in the in the 60s, maybe
18:18
S5: up to 70% on that 25% emissions reduction target. The
18:22
S5: way this has been seen effectively is that a number
18:24
S5: in the 50s would be not ambitious enough and pretty
18:28
S5: much be business as usual in terms of the pathway.
18:31
S5: Somewhere in the 70s would be quite quick and would
18:34
S5: necessitate really quick shifts towards EVs and quicker switching off
18:40
S5: of fossil fuel facilities like coal plants, which you see
18:44
S5: state governments across the country actually extending the life of
18:46
S5: coal plants because of how difficult this transition is. So
18:49
S5: there are a whole different bunch of trade offs here.
18:51
S5: Tricky politics, hard trade offs, the consensus. And it's still
18:56
S5: an expectation at this point. Not not, not not with
18:59
S5: much certainty, is that the government will land somewhere in
19:02
S5: the 60s. Um, but we'll probably see that in the
19:04
S5: next few months. And the politics of this internationally are
19:06
S5: important as well, because we're trying to win the next
19:09
S5: Cop summit. The big international climate conference in Adelaide. And
19:12
S5: we have stiff competition from Turkey, which is yet to
19:15
S5: pull out, which is making our winning of that conference harder.
19:17
S5: We need to prove to the world that we're serious
19:19
S5: about climate change and the Pacific, which we are trying
19:21
S5: to draw closer to us and away from China, which
19:24
S5: is shifting quickly towards a green economy, despite putting on
19:28
S5: a lot of coal plants and other things as well.
19:30
S5: Also wants Australia to be ambitious.
19:31
S1: Yeah, it's so tricky and it's fascinating. Paul, just casting
19:34
S1: ahead to next week, are we going to get our
19:37
S1: lovely superannuation tax debate?
19:39
S5: We're not. Uh, the government is being pretty coy about
19:43
S5: when and how it wants to approach that bit of legislation,
19:47
S5: the And the Greens say they want to make some
19:50
S5: minor tweaks to this law. They want to reduce the
19:52
S5: threshold from 3 million to 2 million and index it
19:55
S5: over time. Chalmers, we don't think has had a substantive
19:58
S5: Jim Chalmers, we don't believe has had a substantive conversation
20:01
S5: with his Greens counterparts. So we don't know when that's
20:03
S5: going to come on. There's a chance it all gets
20:05
S5: tied into the whatever comes out of this economic roundtable
20:09
S5: that's been held in mid-August. So we're a bit none
20:11
S5: the wiser.
20:11
S1: And yeah, we're very excited about the economic Roundtable. We
20:14
S1: love a roundtable on this podcast. Um, it's all going
20:17
S1: to be very.
20:17
S5: Camera is going to be packed.
20:18
S1: Oh, it's.
20:19
S5: You won't be able to book a flight.
20:21
S1: Basically like Coachella for for Canberra. It's going to be huge.
20:24
S1: It's going to be lit.
20:25
S5: You're coming. Right?
20:26
S1: Um, maybe I guess so. Um, we'll definitely be talking
20:31
S1: about on the podcast. Paul, thank you for joining us.
20:33
S1: Welcome home from China. I hope you've adjusted to the
20:36
S1: freezing Canberra temperatures.
20:38
S5: It's grim. Thank you. Great to talk.
20:39
S1: Again. Yep. You too. Bye. Today's episode was produced by
20:44
S1: Tammy Mills with technical assistance from Debbie Harrington to listen
20:48
S1: to our episodes as soon as they drop. Follow Inside
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S1: for listening. Okay. Thanks, guys. See you.