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Trek Kilimanjaro or Run in the Kilimanjaro Marathon · GowayPro Travel Tales

• 0:02
  There are mountains, then there is Kilimanjaro, the great snow-capped crown of Africa.
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  It doesn't roar or boast, it simply rises, silent and impossibly beautiful.
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  To trek Kilimanjaro is to answer a call, not just to adventure, but to exploration.
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  To answer the call of running its marathon is, some would say, crazy.
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  For the runners out there, it is the challenge.
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  From the moment your boots touch the forest floor of the lower slopes,
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  It is a world alive with monkeys, birdsong, and the damp scent of moss and growth.
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  Summer day is something else entirely.
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  You leave in darkness, headlamps dance in like fireflies on the narrow path, but as the sun cracks the horizon and spills gold across the glaciers, the Africa plains lay below
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  you.
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  Hey there everyone, I'm Don, Professor Goay, and welcome to the GoayPro Travel Tale podcast.
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  Travel far and travel often.
• 1:07
  Go Away Pro Trouble Tales podcast.
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  Today we're heading off to Africa, East Africa in particular, and we're speaking to Debbie Anderson who comes from Wild Frontiers.
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  As we always do with our podcast, we like to get our guests to learn a little about, sorry, our listeners to learn a little bit about our guests.
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  So Debbie, can you tell us please how you ended up in East Africa?
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  Because as you
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  people will pick up a English accent.
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  So that'd be the first thing, how an English person ended up in East Africa and how you came to be involved with Wild Frontiers and what Wild Frontiers does.
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  Okay, thank you.
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  Thanks for the introduction, Don.
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  Yes, a very long story short, I used to be in the marketing world and yes, I am originally from the UK, but I moved to Africa when I was 21.
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  Sort of seven or eight years later, I met John, my husband and business partner, and his background was guiding.
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  Yeah, we started the company together in 1991.
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  and we traveled all over Africa, basically exploring and trying to see areas firsthand.
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  From there, originally we thought we'd do marketing and repping, but it soon became apparent that we would be selling destinations.
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  And over time, we have now got our own operations in Tanzania and also up in Uganda.
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  So things have evolved, but that's where it all started.
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  Okay, wonderful story.
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  So we will come back to the broader aspects of what you do with wild frontiers in Uganda and Tanzania shortly, but the goal of today is to talk about Kilimanjaro.
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  So, Kili, as most people would know, should know, is the tallest mountain in Africa.
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  But from a geographical point of view, does it sit wholly and solely in Tanzania or does it sort of dribble off into Kenya as well?
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  So can you just tell us where it's located?
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  It's actually in Tanzania.
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  You could argue that the lower slopes running into the Amboseli National Park, which of course is in Kenya.
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  But the reality is that the mountain per se is fairly and squarely in Tanzania.
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  And if you look at a map, you see the border actually goes around the mountain.
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  Yeah, so yeah, as I say.
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  Okay so sorry sorry so if someone is looking to see Kilimanjaro you can obviously do that from Kenya as you can obviously in Tanzania just as he seeing the mountain correct?
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  Yes, correct.
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  And the beautiful people often see with the elephants in the foreground are mostly taken on the Kenyan side from Ambaseli.
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  So that's your typical shot looking southwards toward the mountain.
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  Your photograph.
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  If a client, a go away client out there is speaking to their travel agent and they say to the travel agent, I want to get closer to Kilimanjaro in that I want to climb it because
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  climbing Kilimanjaro is probably one of the most famous treks.
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  not a mountain climb per se.
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  It's a challenging trek, but a trek nonetheless to the top of Africa.
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  the first question would be to an agent who's not really sure how this works.
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  And that's why we're here today to explain it all.
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  How do you get to a base camp or a base point to start a trek to Kilimanjaro?
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  So we've established it's located in Tanzania.
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  So if you're flying in and it's your first thing, do you fly into Kenya?
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  Do you fly into Tanzania?
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  What's the best way for a North American to arrive and get to their base camp?
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  Okay, there are no direct flights per se, but your ultimate airport to arrive in is Kilimanjaro Airport, which is approximately an hour's drive from the, I'll call it the
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  base town of Moshi.
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  So Moshi is really where the climbing hub originates.
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  Most of the climb operators are based there.
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  There's a good range of hotels and so forth there.
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  But any guests coming in that travel with us, we will effectively pick them up from the airport and drop them back off at the airport or their final departure area.
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  So we try to make it as seamless as possible.
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  Of course.
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  Now I did mention sort of offhandly if someone flies in and that's their first thing to do.
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  So let's take a step back here.
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  Would you recommend as someone's first thing to do in Eastern Africa is to climb Kili?
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  again, I know climatization is an issue which we'll discuss later as we get into the actual options to walk up to the top of the mountain.
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  But should it be something that someone does on their first thing or should they spend maybe a week doing the traditional safaris in and around East Africa before they attempt
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  trekking to Kili?
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  That's a very interesting question because obviously people coming from North America have just experienced a very long wall flight and several time zones which can be quite tiring.
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  What we would ordinarily recommend is your first spend, give yourself a spare day in Moshi or wherever you stay the night before you or the day before you climb.
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  Sort of gather yourself, get into the time zone, rest.
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  check you've got everything you need and so on and so forth.
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  So sort of a full spare day prepping.
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  Now, yes, one could do a safari first, but Kili will be sitting on the back of your mind, which is not a bad thing because it is quite a daunting task.
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  So in some ways, it's quite nice to get Kili done first and then you can enjoy your safari or trip to Zanzibar or whatever else.
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  But we do strongly recommend, even if it's not a long haul flight you're coming in on, that you have a spare day in Moshi before you tackle the actual climb.
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  Right.
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  Yeah.
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  Because again, a lot of people, they go to anywhere in Africa or anywhere in the world, for that matter, on a big trip, you know, they want to, if not party, drink, eat well,
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  know, eat to excess maybe.
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  So yeah, it's probably better to do that after you have conquered the mountain of Kili, then you can, as you say, relax, enjoy your safaris, enjoy your wine, your local beers, et
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  cetera, and not worry about that.
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  So let's talk about actually climbing Kili.
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  I did it many, many years ago, as my wife did.
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  There are two points you can reach.
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  are Uluru and what was the other one?
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  You got, you, you got
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  not the long room, sorry.
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  I'm falling back into my Australian thing.
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  Yeah, sorry.
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  Yeah, so I'll let you name the two points, not me.
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  Now basically, all roads should lead to highest point, that is the summit.
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  It's actually Swahili for the word freedom.
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  And you can ascend through two sort of sides of the mountain.
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  The one comes up to, one comes up to Stella and the other one comes up to Gilman's.
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  So you kind of come up the two different
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  sides of the mountain and then you still go up to Uhuru on the the sort of summit of the mountain so to speak.
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  Now, it was or it still is to a degree snow peaked.
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  I understand that the glaciers and the snow up there has been receding over the years.
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  Is that still receding?
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  Has it stabilized itself?
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  Will people experience when and if they summit?
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  Because it's not a guarantee, it's an if.
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  Will they see snow and glaciers or is that gone now?
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  The glaciers are definitely receding.
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  I was up there a month ago or so and there was quite some snowfall which obviously gives it that black ice cream cone look but it's not permanent so it'll snow, it'll stay there
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  for a few days and then obviously it will over time melt.
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  But yes, the glaciers are definitely receding so that permanent white on the top is not as distinct as it used to be.
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  It depends on the time of year you climb as to what the weather might be doing.
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  Okay.
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  So let's jump into a climatization because what I found, I did the trek with the group when I was overlanding as a passenger, not when was leading trips.
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  And I think what a lot of us found and out of, think maybe 18 that went started, only two of us made it to the top, it myself and another girl.
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  But I think what we found as we were sort of chatting and walking, particularly on the summer day was it was mentally, not what was tough, it's a tough trek, but it was mentally
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  weird that,
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  Two or three days ago, we're in the African savanna looking at elephants and lions, and now we're sort of at altitude and in snow.
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  It was a weird juxtaposition for Africa.
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  And I think to a lot of the people who climbed, other than altitude sickness hitting them, it was just that they weren't expecting that, I guess.
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  So obviously there are many ways to climb as in different routes, which we'll touch on in a minute.
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  Some offer more climatization time, some less.
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  But obviously, climatisation is key to getting up there.
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  what I'm getting at here is, other than the mental challenges, for want of a better term, how fit do you need to be to take on Kili?
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  Well, walking, I know that's an awfully obvious question, but the best training for Kili is hiking.
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  To get used to ascending carrying a day pack, which would normally weigh seven, eight, 10 kilos maximum, because you have porters that carry all your clothing and things like that.
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  And just get used to hiking for hours at a time, you know, like a...
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  four hour hike or a five hour hike because that's your typical day on your feet on Kili.
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  Then you have a rest and then you might do a couple of hours in the afternoon or whatever.
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  But we do have some training programs and we've sent up over the years a variety of different people from doctors to all sorts of different people, personalities, radio
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  people.
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  But somebody we sent up a few times as a biokineticist and he tried to develop something
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  for people who may not necessarily be able to get out and hike or walk.
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  So something you can sort of attempt in a gym environment.
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  And again, I I also appreciate some people coming out of North America, perhaps in the middle of winter, you're not able to physically go outside and easily hike on the odd
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  weekend.
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  So all of those things, one has to take into consideration.
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  But that would be the best.
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  Right now from memory And it was a long time ago when I did it for the most part Let's say I'm gonna ballpark it is 75 % of the the trek is reasonable uphill grade.
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  It's nothing extremely Challenging it's like the last day or day and a half where you sort of get to the the me a climb up the peak You know, there's some zigzagging up and it's
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  quite cool coming down and all the scree But really overall and again, correct me if I'm wrong, and this is testing my memory
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  most of the track on the way up is reasonable, incline, nothing really steep, correct?
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  Yeah, the only route that has sort of an additional level of steepness would be going up the Oomboe route, which is technically shorter in terms of distance, but steeper.
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  And then it's not a route that we actually like to offer anymore.
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  But if anybody wanted to climb up Lava Tower, which is a bit of a sort of a rocky ascent to Uhuru.
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  Sorry, I've got thunder going on in the background.
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  So yeah, but apart from that, you're quite right.
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  It's the last section, which is approximately a kilometre of height that you're gaining on your final ascent.
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  The rest of it is a good, steady, gradual uphill walk.
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  What I'm going to say, though, on that note is you're doing four or five days up and then you get to the summit and then you do two days down.
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  Your legs have become used to
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  using muscles that take you uphill.
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  And then you go, okay, now we're going down and they're going, hang on a minute, we haven't done that for the last five days.
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  So watch out for that, particularly, you know, people who, who might have old injuries or be concerned about knees and so forth.
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  So that's something to kind of like bear in mind.
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  Yeah, 100 % because having done the Inca Trail many times, I was often asked about, you know, how tough is it, et cetera.
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  And what I would say is to your point, it's going up is definitely tough at altitude, et cetera.
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  But it's the down bit and there's two distinct days on the Inca Trail, the second day and the third day.
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  And yeah, it's the down because your legs are so used to the up and then the pressure on the knees and stuff.
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  And even though, again, I'm sure it's the same, but I remember coming off the summit, there's
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  The first section at least is all the screezy.
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  can do these big long gliding steps, which is quite calm and soft on the legs.
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  But then to your point, as you get down back to where you started it, it's a down, down, down.
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  Now, classic saying, I'm sure it's still around and I'm hoping I remember it correctly.
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  As you mentioned, the porters will carry everything for you other than what you need during the day, which you have in a day pack, you know, water, sweatshirt or jacket, you
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  know, that sort of thing.
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  And
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  The whole mantra that I remember from the porters who were amazing, all locals, fantastic guides, poly, poly, poly, which means slowly, slowly, slowly.
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  I remembering that correctly?
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  Yeah, okay.
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  So there's a bit of advice you'll get from us now and from the guides when you're there.
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  Just take your time.
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  There's no mad rush up.
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  Now that segues into my question of, now this I know will be based on the route you choose, which we'll then follow up with that.
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  How many days should someone allocate to climb Kilimanjaro, the average traveler or trekker?
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  Okay, we recommend minimum six, five nights for up to there are some routes so you can do a day shorter and I won't sell a day shorter.
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  So if you want to book a day shorter, you go book it with somebody else.
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  You really need that extra day, the minimum amount going up to let your body acclimatize correctly.
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  Otherwise you are risking your health and also your chance of summiting comfortably.
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  At the end of the day, you spent a lot of money to be there.
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  It doesn't make sense to try and do it a day quicker.
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  I'm not saying it's not possible.
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  I just don't recommend it at all.
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  Yeah, agreed.
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  So one thing we haven't actually touched on is what is the height of Kili?
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  If you get to the summer, what height are you at?
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  Here we go, now you're testing me.
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  I'm just looking at my map to make sure I haven't forgotten.
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  5895 if I remember correctly.
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  Metres foot, 19,340.
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  That's right.
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  I remember.
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  Yeah, I remember it was close to 20,000 feet.
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  So as Debbie mentions there, her advice, and we stand by her expertise, of course, and her knowledge, local knowledge, is take that extra.
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  It's like any trek at altitude, you need to allocate time to acclimatize because, and it doesn't matter how fit you are or unfit you are.
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  And I've seen this firsthand through traveling through Latin America in the Andes.
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  Even the fittest people can be hit with altitude sickness on any given day.
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  So acclimatization, that's what it's all about.
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  So back to poly, poly, poly, take your time slowly and use the days allocated as Debbie's recommending.
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  So on that note of roots available, I think it is at the Machame, which is known as a Coca-Cola root.
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  And as an extension of that question, how many roots are there up to the peak of Kilimanjaro?
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  Okay, there's one route called the Moranga route, which used to be like Coca Cola route, which is hutted.
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  The huts are communal, which suits some, not others.
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  Personally, I would prefer the camping option, which is all the other routes.
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  One of the main reasons is because you're sharing huts with potentially a group of strangers.
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  You know, you might have somebody coming in late or somebody opening and closing the door.
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  maybe you want fresh air and the other guy wants to be all snuck up and, you know, with no airflow and that sort of thing.
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  So huts are, they're great because they're warmer and dry, but definitely more comfortable.
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  But at the end of the day, personally, I would recommend one of the camping routes.
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  So Morangu was obviously one of the original routes that was developed for commercial trekking.
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  Then you've got Machami, which is probably the most popular of the camping routes.
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  It starts on the sort of southwest face of the mountain and it sort of circles, goes up onto what they call the Shura Plateau.
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  Then it goes down onto the sort of southern face of the mountain and then you ascend from there.
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  So you get to see them from different angles, which is very, very nice.
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  Then other routes, you've got Umbui I mentioned earlier, which is quite steep.
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  You've got Londerosi, La Moshe Glades, you've got the northern route, you've got Rongai route, which comes in from the northern, more like on the Kenyan side, although it starts
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  in Tanzania, but it comes in from the north of the mountain.
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  So there's lots of different routes up.
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  Ultimately, you all go up the same final section, with the exception of the Marangu.
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  You know, there will be a little bit of a bottleneck of people at the final campsite.
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  But after that, know, people walk at their own pace and your guides will determine what time you start your walk during the night, depending on how strong the group is during
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  their prior days getting there.
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  So, yeah.
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  That leads to my next question of on average, what is the average start time and trekking time every day except summer day?
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  We'll speak about that directly in a minute.
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  Okay, normally you get a nice breakfast, cooked breakfast and you sort of organise your kitchen, probably start walking at 8.30, 9 o'clock in the morning.
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  Maybe, yeah, 8, 8.30 and then stop for lunch somewhere depending on which day it is, which route you're going, you might be able to stop for a cooked lunch but more often than not
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  it's a packed lunch that you would carry yourself and then again you get into camp
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  any time from three o'clock in the afternoon for the next hour or two depending on which day of the the trek it is and which route you're doing.
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  Okay, now I did the Marengo route and I remember distinctly to this day being woken up at about I think three o'clock in the morning, maybe around that time for the summit day.
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  So that would be standard across the board as well.
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  It's a very early rise to get there for sunrise, correct?
• 20:58
  Yes, these days we tend to wake our guests up, let's say around midnight.
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  it's been a really slow group, then it might even be earlier, like 10, 10.30 before you start your final walk up.
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  It really, really depends on how the guests have coped with the prior days hiking and the guides, they determine that when they're with you.
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  They're not going to tell you on day one how are you going to be on day four or five.
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  So, yeah, so they work that out as they go.
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  One of the things that the guides will ordinarily do is they'll put the slowest person at the front of the group so that they hold back the rest of the guys walking with them,
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  which automatically slows down somebody who might want to go a little bit faster.
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  Because as you said, poly poly, you've got to go slowly, slowly.
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  Yep.
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  On our trek, we got to a point, there was a little cave where we stopped and rested and that's where most of the group turned back.
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  if groups, if you're walking with a group, okay let me ask you this, as an independent trekker or a couple, do you walk with your own guides or are you put with a larger group?
• 22:12
  Okay, depending on how you book, most of our guests are individuals and they will be in a private group.
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  They might bump into others on the walk and possibly at a campsite, but they have their own guide, their own assistant guide, because the guide is also human.
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  He might also get sick.
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  And if one of the party needs to come back, then you need somebody to remain with other guests.
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  So we have quite a high guide to guest ratio.
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  as well as all the porters and things like that.
• 22:43
  then, yes, so we do also have a selection of small group departures, which people can add on to.
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  But these days we find most of our clients are actually private bookings.
• 22:57
  really, that's interesting.
• 22:58
  Yeah, because I was getting at the point there that we had, I think again, from memory two or three guides with us due to the size of the group and because of that when most of the
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  group wanted to turn around there was a guide or two to basically company them back down to the hut or wherever the next that Knights campsite was and we were able to continue on
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  with our guide.
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  Back to the route, so in from a easy to hard, what would be the easiest physical route to the hardest physical route?
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  suggest Rongai, which joins the Marengo route and or the Marengo route would be considered to be the easier options.
• 23:39
  Then Barshalonda, Rossi, Lomosho routes because they're extra days.
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  You're walking a lot further distance, but you have a much better time for climatisation, which is a positive thing.
• 23:53
  The Northern route, which has recently sort of become a new route as such, I believe is quite difficult.
• 24:03
  It's longer.
• 24:04
  I haven't personally done that.
• 24:07
  But it's another option that is available now as well.
• 24:12
  I'd say your average hiker who's not an experienced hiker, but they quite fit.
• 24:18
  The Machami is the favourite.
• 24:21
  for good reasons.
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  It's a good length of time.
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  The climatisation is steady and you've got the option of adding an extra night in an area called the Kerenga Valley.
• 24:33
  So you can have an extra night for climatisation, which we do recommend, you know, time permitting.
• 24:40
  Yeah, and it's worth pointing out to the track itself like it goes through such a variance of Micro micro eco climates and flora as you walk around so it's it changes every day as
• 24:54
  well.
• 24:54
  So it's not a It's definitely not boring.
• 24:57
  Of course, you know as you walk up the side of killer you're getting to see Africa around you but just on a day to day it's also very very changeable in regards what you see and
• 25:05
  feel so to some
• 25:10
  For someone to walk, sorry, to trek, okay, let me just, I'll come back on this question.
• 25:14
  So I'm going to edit here, anything out that mightn't be, that mightn't be applicable for people to hear about in regards to cost.
• 25:22
  So let's just try and be general as we can here.
• 25:25
  So if someone wants to trek, Kili and they've made their mind up from a cost point of view, is there like, I step back again.
• 25:34
  Is Mount Kilimanjaro within a national park itself?
• 25:38
  Is it a national park?
• 25:39
  unto itself.
• 25:41
  by extension I would assume anyone who wants to either get close to it or more importantly climb it there would be a park fee to pay which is common in Africa.
• 25:51
  Yeah, it is a national park.
• 25:53
  And even if one were to do a day trip up there, you still have to pay a park fee.
• 25:59
  When you climbing, you pay park camp or hut fees.
• 26:04
  You also pay a mountain rescue fee and it will typically end up being in the region of anything from about a third, maybe a little bit more of your overall cost for that
• 26:18
  particular
• 26:20
  safari or experience.
• 26:24
  So the fees in Tanzania are relatively high compared to southern Africa for argument's sake and it's not just Kili, it's here and Kenya, their park fees are quite high but you
• 26:39
  know it's a unique experience so it's definitely worthwhile.
• 26:43
  Yeah, for sure.
• 26:44
  And I don't think people would be really pushing back on park fees.
• 26:48
  I don't know for sure.
• 26:49
  You would have a much better idea, obviously, but the park fees are going back into the park, local communities protecting the wildlife in, you know, in the more safari points,
• 26:59
  but also, you know, looking after the on Kili.
• 27:04
  So it's, you know, it's an investment back into the local community and economy as well.
• 27:09
  Now you'd
• 27:10
  You deal with Uganda as well.
• 27:12
  when it comes to mountain gorilla permits, you must book a long way ahead for those because it's so popular, so limited.
• 27:18
  They're generally non-refundable.
• 27:20
  Can the same be said about permits or access to trekking Mount Kilimanjaro?
• 27:25
  Do you have to book miles ahead?
• 27:27
  Are they refundable if something goes wrong or you change your mind or can you change dates?
• 27:31
  All that type of thing.
• 27:32
  Okay, so if you're doing the Morango route, which is the hutted route, of course, there are limitations on the number of beds available.
• 27:41
  So one has to be mindful of that when booking and your sort of peak booking travel season is your summer months, July, August, September, and then again, a little bit in sort of
• 27:53
  January, February.
• 27:54
  When you sorry to interrupt, when you say booking, mean booking as in book it then or that's when people are climbing?
• 28:02
  No, your climbing period, your travel period.
• 28:05
  beg your pardon.
• 28:05
  Yeah.
• 28:07
  So there is a portion that would be non-refundable, but typically with Kili, you can change things.
• 28:16
  You can move dates fairly easily if something should happen without penalty.
• 28:23
  You might get a penalty with a hotel or something like that if it's a last minute change.
• 28:27
  But by and large, there is a level of flexibility and like
• 28:32
  Gorilla permits, as you've pointed out, that date is understandable, that's it.
• 28:37
  The park fees can, or the excursion itself, the experience can be moved.
• 28:43
  When traveling anywhere in the world, and I'm actually about to head your way to Southern Africa, sorry, not East Africa, heading down South in about two and a half weeks.
• 28:51
  And because I'm a little bit anal and I like to plan and be organized, I'm already packing two and a half weeks out.
• 28:59
  But I'm being, you know, I'm taking a lot of camera gear for, because that's what I do here, but being conscious of what to take on any trip, you don't want to overpack, but you
• 29:08
  don't want to be caught short with needing certain stuff and a trek.
• 29:12
  anywhere you need to have the right stuff, right footwear, right clothing.
• 29:16
  So that doesn't become an issue why you can't summit or can't trek.
• 29:20
  So what is advised by yourself in regards to clothing and or equipment to take with you to Africa to climb Kilimanjaro?
• 29:30
  Okay, so the key word here is layering.
• 29:33
  So you don't need a team set of clothing every single day, you just put more and more layers on top as the temperature drops.
• 29:41
  We do have comprehensive kit lists.
• 29:43
  So if a client is wanting some absolute guidelines, we do have have that available.
• 29:50
  But one of the key things we always say to our guests is wear your boots on your flight.
• 29:57
  You never quite know a bag might get lost or delayed or something like that.
• 30:03
  the main thing is to pack your footwear.
• 30:07
  Everything else you can make a plan with, but your boots need to be your boots.
• 30:11
  So you can hire certain elements in Tanzania.
• 30:16
  I'm not going to testify to the quality of everything being guaranteed.
• 30:22
  So whatever you can bring with you is better.
• 30:26
  particularly waterproof gear, that's critical.
• 30:30
  So if you can bring waterproof pants and or trousers as well as a jacket, then things like sleeping bags and all those things, we don't supply that as part of the equipment.
• 30:42
  I know certain hikes in certain countries do and certain operators, but people, you know, we don't supply that.
• 30:49
  We do supply, of course, the tentage and all the food and...
• 30:54
  all that side of things, but your personal clothing, it's up to you to bring in your sleeping bag.
• 30:59
  You can hire pretty much all your outer gear in Tanzania if a bag goes missing or you've forgotten something.
• 31:08
  So don't panic, but it's not optimal.
• 31:11
  Yeah.
• 31:12
  It depends as well.
• 31:13
  You know, if you're going on a, sorry to interrupt, but there's quite weight limitations as well.
• 31:17
  Again, we'll send that through and they weigh your bag to give them to the porters.
• 31:22
  So it's normally about 12 kilos of personal baggage that they will carry for you, then you have your day pack.
• 31:30
  But you can actually very comfortably pack 12 kilos for Kelly.
• 31:36
  It's not as tight as one might think.
• 31:39
  Right, for our American friends, what's 12 kilos in pounds, do know?
• 31:43
  gosh, times 2.2, what's that about 20?
• 31:47
  25 pounds, let's say.
• 31:48
  Yeah, 28 pounds.
• 31:52
  What I've, yeah, sorry.
• 31:53
  What I've found is when we did the Inca trails, very similar guidelines in regards to what you need on the trail.
• 31:59
  Again, it's a trek, so, you know, pretty common.
• 32:02
  the sleeping bag question often came up.
• 32:05
  Now on our trips, we were camping anywhere, so most people bought sleeping bags.
• 32:09
  But as time changed and more and more people don't want to camp anymore, what we often say is you can hire...
• 32:14
  sleeping bags locally but a lot of people don't like that because other people have slept in them which is a fair statement but what we would suggest is you bring a inner like an
• 32:23
  inner liner, silk liner or cotton line or something like that put that in the sleeping bag if you want to hire one locally so that's a little advice there because the average person
• 32:32
  on a safari with Gowei outside of Kilimanjaro will probably not be camping so that means you have to drag a sleeping bag around for those three or four days and then lug it with
• 32:41
  you which is doable.
• 32:42
  But again, as Debbie's saying, if you don't want to do that, let us know beforehand and we can set up the hiring of clothing.
• 32:50
  Cause again, for the most part, when you're on, and again, back to Debbie's point of layering, when you're walking up to the top of the mountain, you don't necessarily need a
• 32:59
  big snow jacket on you.
• 33:00
  Cause your body temperature will come up, be too hot.
• 33:02
  You'll end up carrying it with you.
• 33:04
  If you hang around for half an hour or so on the summit, you might want to throw it back on.
• 33:09
  And then it comes off maybe an hour later as you're going down.
• 33:11
  So you've now dragged that big jacket with you for the total use of maybe five or six hours.
• 33:16
  Now that might be important to you.
• 33:17
  Don't want say don't do it, but just keep that in mind, hire it locally or more importantly, as Debbie says, layer, layer, layer, which can be used throughout the rest of
• 33:26
  your trip in Africa, which I'm sure would include safaris, et cetera.
• 33:31
  You mentioned the weight the porters carry.
• 33:33
  So you answered sort of half answer this.
• 33:35
  So the porters, as we discussed, will carry
• 33:38
  Everything outside of the day pack.
• 33:39
  But if you're camping, which is your recommendation based on route is they carry all the tents, all the food, all the cooking utensils, et cetera.
• 33:47
  So the clients basically, as we've established walk with the day pack and that's it.
• 33:51
  And the porters do all the, all the hard yucca as we would say in Australia.
• 33:56
  Yeah.
• 33:56
  Okay.
• 33:59
  on the subject of them carrying the food, what is the food?
• 34:01
  Like you mentioned the meals you get, but, what
• 34:05
  can people expect if someone has dietary restrictions, what's the deal there?
• 34:09
  Okay, obviously dietary restrictions let us know upfront.
• 34:14
  We haven't had any problems with various diets so that it shouldn't be an issue.
• 34:21
  If you are concerned, you're very welcome to bring along your own different food types or whatever if it really is a big issue.
• 34:30
  But typically in Tanzania you're eating fresh local produce, lots of veggies, lots of fruits, local
• 34:41
  you know, specialities and things like that.
• 34:43
  When you're climbing, they'll keep the diet filling, lot of carbs, warm so you get soups and stews and things like that as you start going up the mountain because it gets cold at
• 34:56
  night.
• 34:59
  Protein, but not like a big chunk of steak.
• 35:02
  So, you know, your body can't digest large amounts of protein at altitude.
• 35:07
  So all of those things are sort of taken into account.
• 35:10
  But you get three decent meals a day.
• 35:13
  They also provide you with snacks and they'll prepare your picnic lunch if you take your picnic lunch.
• 35:22
  Just on that subject, which I'm sure you're about to get to is with regard to the water.
• 35:29
  We...
• 35:30
  recommend, although the water that you will have access to is mountain spring water, there could be bacteria in there that your body is not used to.
• 35:41
  You might be used to drinking pure bottled water or, you know, chemical treated water from your tap in your house.
• 35:50
  I don't know.
• 35:50
  But bring some sort of water purification tablets.
• 35:54
  It's your responsibility to purify your own water.
• 35:58
  So the porters will
• 35:59
  water, you decant it, pop in the pill or whatever it might be, leave it and then jump off you go.
• 36:05
  It's just a precaution.
• 36:08
  That's obviously a very good point and just please take note that it's the client's responsibility to do that.
• 36:14
  We go lot of backcountry camping here and there's something I get at Mountain Co-op Equipment, which is a Canadian outfitter and it's literally two drops per, like there's an
• 36:24
  A and B, two drops of each, stick in the water, wait five minutes and it's done.
• 36:28
  And we've used that camping and had no issues with any type of waterborne illnesses.
• 36:34
  Now we discussed what happens if you want to turn back because you have, you know,
• 36:38
  guides there, they'll turn you back.
• 36:40
  And I would assume that if you want to turn back at any time, it's like anything, if you're sort of close to day one, and for whatever reason you want to turn back or you get
• 36:48
  hurt, they take you back to the start.
• 36:50
  But as you get more into the track, they would take you back to the last campsite and you would wait for the group to return if it's not an injury based situation.
• 36:59
  No, you go straight back to the base and then the would organise, know, communications are quite good these days, there's phone signal just about everywhere.
• 37:10
  So they would organise for a transfer vehicle to come and collect you and then you go back to the hotel.
• 37:17
  Because camping, sorry.
• 37:20
  After you.
• 37:22
  Yeah, because of camping, the camp will be completely dismantled.
• 37:26
  So you can't sort of have a tent in waiting if you know what mean.
• 37:30
  If it's going down the Marenga route in the huts, that's a possibility.
• 37:34
  But most people, if they're not feeling up for it, then they'd rather just go back and get comfortable at the hotel.
• 37:40
  Okay, it's a two point question, but it's the same sort of subject matter.
• 37:45
  Have you ever experienced, not yourself personally, but in organizing the treks, a serious injury, as far as I know, it's not very common if at all, but if someone was to get
• 37:59
  seriously hurt or injured high up in the mountain, what's the evacuation setup?
• 38:04
  Is it just basically throwing them on the back of a porter if that's doable and...
• 38:09
  they bring them down or are they helicopters that can fly in for any serious issues?
• 38:16
  yes, and yes.
• 38:18
  So if you you really high up the mountain and you have a physical injury as opposed to an altitude mountain sickness sort of issue, you would be either almost as you say carried
• 38:32
  down on or help down or, you know, lend an arm.
• 38:37
  If it's really, really serious, they have a stretcher, which is quite quite entertaining to look at.
• 38:45
  It's like a stretcher with a big wheel at the front and they'll put you in that and zip down the mountain.
• 38:51
  So they'll wheel you down, obviously quite safely.
• 38:53
  If it's really, really hectic and they require like a helicopter medical evacuation, obviously the helicopters can't go fly above certain altitudes.
• 39:06
  So there are helipads that they could fly to and intercept.
• 39:11
  So what happens in those scenarios is the guides will communicate with the base and also with national parks.
• 39:19
  So parks may get involved in taking somebody down or not, depending how serious it is and how far away the park personnel is from the guest, because that will depend on the route
• 39:33
  as well.
• 39:33
  yeah, so there's a variety of ways of getting down off the mountain.
• 39:39
  But the one thing to point out with altitude mountain sickness is if you do start getting AMS and you don't pick it up too early in yourself is, you know, the way you fix it is to
• 39:53
  go down, is to descend.
• 39:55
  And the beauty of Kili, as much as it's up, up, up rather quickly compared to a range like Himalayas where you kind of up down like this, you can also get down, down, down very
• 40:06
  quickly.
• 40:07
  So it's,
• 40:09
  It's an easy mountain to evacuate from that perspective, if that kind of makes sense.
• 40:15
  Good.
• 40:16
  yeah, does.
• 40:16
  Good to know.
• 40:19
  when someone gets to the peak, which is what the ultimate goal is, how long are they able to stay at the peak before they have to turn around and come down?
• 40:28
  There's no set rule.
• 40:30
  You stay there as long as you can manage.
• 40:34
  People are like, take the photo, I'm out of here.
• 40:37
  And others are sort of be out there for an hour or so.
• 40:41
  It really depends on the individual and how the group is.
• 40:46
  If it's a whole sort of group of people, you might have some people who are feeling hundreds and they want to spend ages up there.
• 40:53
  Others might be just going, I've had enough now, I want to get there.
• 40:57
  start walking home.
• 40:59
  So yeah.
• 41:00
  tick that off the list, I'm Now you've mentioned on arrival to build in a pre-day just to get there and not acclimatize per se.
• 41:12
  it's a fair word, acclimatize to Africa, maybe not to the mountain itself, yeah, just acclimatize to being in a different country, different culture, all that type of thing.
• 41:21
  Do you also recommend, cause I remember when I came down from the mountain now in hindsight, I'm pretty sure, well, I know.
• 41:28
  I was going through the early stages of malaria, so this is why I felt so absolutely wiped out.
• 41:33
  But still, it's a very challenging trek.
• 41:36
  Do you recommend that people build in a chill day at the end of the trek as well, just to get over it and relax before they move on to the next adventure within East Africa?
• 41:45
  No, you can just move on.
• 41:47
  Listen to you.
• 41:48
  Let's go.
• 41:49
  Let's go.
• 41:51
  Push me out the door.
• 41:54
  You might have a hangover in the morning, so you might be moving on slowly.
• 41:58
  no, there's no need to do a post day.
• 42:01
  mean, people are welcome to, obviously.
• 42:03
  There's things to do in the area, there are waterfalls to see, there's hot springs and stuff like that.
• 42:10
  Culture, there's coffee farms, there's all sorts of little things you can do around Moshi.
• 42:13
  There's some lovely restaurants and things there too.
• 42:16
  But by and large, there's no real reason to hang around after the climb.
• 42:21
  You can possibly do some of those before.
• 42:24
  Just on the logistics of the last day.
• 42:26
  So you would walk back to the, like the true base camp, unload any equipment that you've used.
• 42:32
  I remember you could take, or they offered up walking sticks or trekking poles, they were wooden ones, but all that type of thing.
• 42:39
  So if you've hired anything, you can drop it all back at the end of the day there at the base camp.
• 42:44
  you, so on the last day you would have a hotel book for that last day.
• 42:48
  You'd go back, you'd have your celebratory dinner and or drinks, be it a couple, be it a group.
• 42:53
  And then.
• 42:53
  The next day is what we're talking about.
• 42:55
  You then move on to your next adventure, correct?
• 42:57
  Correct, yes.
• 42:59
  So do spend that night in Moshi.
• 43:02
  Some guests don't, some literally come off the mountain and head off somewhere else.
• 43:07
  But I would recommend that last night, in case there's some delay, perhaps somebody's walking slowly or, you know, you just don't know.
• 43:15
  So have that last night built in.
• 43:16
  And it's also very nice to have a bit of a celebration with the guides and the staff and whatnot.
• 43:23
  It's fun.
• 43:24
  Yeah, because if you're well, even if you don't summit, it's still, you know, based on how high you get, it's still a big challenge.
• 43:31
  It's still a big track, physical, mental, and particularly if you summit, it's definitely worth celebrating.
• 43:36
  So yeah, there's no need to to rush off and you know, in the scheme of a trip to Africa, you know, basically rushing off a half day early, it's not going to achieve anything to be
• 43:45
  perfectly honest.
• 43:46
  Enjoy, enjoy your time there.
• 43:48
  Now, one thing that I didn't know about until I met you.
• 43:51
  I knew about the Kili climbs and you did that, but I didn't know that you also look after you being your company while Frontiers organize an annual, I believe, marathon called the
• 44:01
  Kilimanjaro Marathon.
• 44:03
  I'm to go out in the limb and say you don't actually run to the top of the mountain do you?
• 44:06
  I'm assuming it's sort of around the base of the mountain.
• 44:08
  So can you expand on that for our running people out there?
• 44:13
  Yeah, with pleasure.
• 44:15
  So, John, my husband actually came up with this crazy idea 23 years ago.
• 44:20
  So we've been doing Kili Marathon for 23 years now.
• 44:24
  We started off with about 450, 500 people.
• 44:27
  don't know.
• 44:27
  I can't remember.
• 44:29
  Now we're up to about 12, 13,000 runners in total.
• 44:36
  Yeah, it's a bit crazy.
• 44:40
  It's based in Moshi.
• 44:42
  you are effectively running around the suburbs, if I can call it that, of Moshi.
• 44:48
  We organise a 42-kilometre marathon.
• 44:52
  is measured by AIMS, sorry, not AIMS, World Athletics Representation, so it's correctly measured and it can be used as a qualifier for ultramarathons as long as it falls within
• 45:05
  the time frame.
• 45:07
  We also offer a 21, which is very, very popular.
• 45:11
  and a fun run which is also popular but more so for the the Moshi residents.
• 45:18
  Yeah it's a great run.
• 45:21
  We do it's a circular route pretty much so the full and the half follow the same route and then the full continues on a slightly more level section but it's so nice.
• 45:33
  It's the first part of the morning or the route and the first about eight k's is a steady uphill but you've got Kili.
• 45:40
  sitting there, you're running with the mountain, you're running toward the mountain.
• 45:44
  It's beautiful.
• 45:45
  So if the weather's nice, and it's a clear morning, it's quite spectacular.
• 45:50
  And then just to add on that for the party people, our sponsor, which is Kilimanjaro Premium Lager, they also organize a thing that is called Kili Dome, which is a three day
• 46:04
  party.
• 46:07
  It's got light show, it brings in local music and bands and it is absolutely spectacular.
• 46:15
  So that runs over the same weekend.
• 46:18
  And when I say you cannot get a bed night in Moshi, if you don't book a room at town, literally fills up to the brim.
• 46:26
  It's quite amazing just watching all these people come in and party.
• 46:30
  It's great fun.
• 46:32
  When is the marathon on an annual basis, which month or dates?
• 46:36
  Normally we aim for the last Sunday or first Sunday of February, March.
• 46:43
  Next year we are potentially looking at the 22nd of March because of Ramadan and we're just busy fine-tuning the dates with our sponsors, but that's the most likely.
• 46:57
  If a runner or a group of runners need or want to book the marathon, I would assume there's an entry fee for that.
• 47:06
  And we can obviously package it up with the hotel accommodation.
• 47:09
  And then if they've got any energy left, if they want to go and summit Kili after that, or even before, if they're really crazy or do a safari, we can arrange all that for them as
• 47:18
  well.
• 47:19
  You mentioned that Moshe sells out because of the marathon.
• 47:21
  So your advice on how far ahead to book, if you want to look at doing the marathon.
• 47:26
  Yeah, if you are keen as soon as the dates are released, book.
• 47:32
  Okay.
• 47:32
  And that'll be on our website as well here at Go Way.
• 47:35
  So I highly recommend to any of our Go Way agents out there who deal with groups, particularly running groups, this would be an awesome suggestion to bring forward to your
• 47:44
  running group to do a marathon, you know, in the shadows of Kilimanjaro in Tanzania, East Africa.
• 47:51
  Are there any other prerequisites for the marathon?
• 47:53
  Is it really just entering, you know, basically saying, want to enter, here's my fee.
• 47:58
  any fitness checks before it's just, know, if you think you can do it away, go.
• 48:03
  Yeah, no, I mean, obviously we do we do a lot of social media and mailers and things like that and recommend people get appropriately fit.
• 48:11
  But there is no specific guideline if you can't enter this.
• 48:17
  It really is a proper African marathon.
• 48:22
  know, it's it's just.
• 48:25
  It's it's a little bit chaotic sometimes.
• 48:29
  No, what we get there is we get the creme de la creme of East African runners and they're the best longest runners in the world.
• 48:37
  Those guys machines, it is just amazing watching them run.
• 48:42
  It is absolutely phenomenal.
• 48:45
  So and an honor to watch them as well because some of those guys, it's like a training ground for the Olympics, know, certainly for the Tanzanians.
• 48:56
  When I say chaotic, most of the other people that enter,
• 48:59
  are not generally runners, so they're not used to things like seeding, for example.
• 49:06
  And that sort of thing.
• 49:08
  So that's where a little bit of the chaos can come into place.
• 49:11
  But we run it properly.
• 49:13
  We've got water points that are all manned by various sponsors.
• 49:16
  They're good fun.
• 49:18
  You know, we've got first aid.
• 49:20
  We've got support crews, police, blah, blah, blah, blah, a big sort of concert at the end, as well as this Killydome affair as well.
• 49:28
  but it's got a lovely vibe.
• 49:30
  And in fact, featured in, something popped up the other day with third or fourth of the world's, not best marathons, but kind of most adventurous marathons or sort of after
• 49:45
  marathons.
• 49:46
  That makes perfect sense to me.
• 49:48
  Yeah, so you next door to things like the Great Wall of China and the Antarctic and things like that.
• 49:54
  So, yeah, it's a really, really lovely weekend.
• 49:58
  The people are very welcoming.
• 50:00
  Sounds it.
• 50:01
  So again, any runners out there directly or agents who work with running groups, this is something definitely worth looking into.
• 50:07
  Give us a call.
• 50:08
  We can pass on all the information that Debbie has at hand.
• 50:11
  We're coming to the end of our time, but I don't want to go before we allow you to give us a quick little pitch on the other things that you do as Wild Frontiers.
• 50:19
  You mentioned the gorillas in Uganda and your own safari setup.
• 50:23
  So give us your elevator pitch on Wild Frontiers and all the other things you can do for people.
• 50:29
  Well, thank you very much, Don.
• 50:30
  Well, as we're on the subject of marathons, we also organized the Victoria Falls Marathon in Zimbabwe.
• 50:36
  So that's another option for your running market.
• 50:41
  And this year, that typically takes place the first weekend of June.
• 50:45
  Sorry, July.
• 50:46
  Sorry, excuse me, July.
• 50:48
  So it's in winter, a little bit cooler.
• 50:50
  And we run over the bridge, over the old iron bridge and then through the national park.
• 50:56
  very different vibe to Kili, but it's also a beautiful run.
• 51:01
  It's really, really nice.
• 51:02
  So that's another option for your running market.
• 51:05
  So those are our two big events.
• 51:09
  Other things, yes, we have a safari operation in Uganda where we offer primate safaris, birding, fishing safaris, just general game-viewing safaris and so forth of varying
• 51:23
  lengths and styles.
• 51:25
  whether it be joining a small group departure or private, most of our trips are private.
• 51:30
  So that's a great option.
• 51:34
  In Tanzania, we can also assist with Southern Tanzania safaris as well as what we call the Northern Circuit Serengeti and so forth.
• 51:44
  We've got a couple of tentative camps in the Serengeti National Park as well.
• 51:49
  Kenya and...
• 51:52
  creative places like DRC, we've been to Saint-Tome, which is off the coast of Gabon, know, Zimbabwe, Botswana, Namibia, kind of, we've got all sorts of interesting things in our
• 52:07
  portfolio.
• 52:08
  But I think whilst, you know, on a personal basis, John and I love new things, different things, getting out there and seeing unusual stuff.
• 52:19
  I think it's that sort of 80-20 rule.
• 52:21
  Most of our guests, their first safari in Africa, they want to see and explore, you know, all the iconic places.
• 52:31
  you.
• 52:32
  Yeah.
• 52:33
  So, yes, individually as Wild Frontiers, we sell pretty much all of Africa.
• 52:40
  Sorry, south of, although we've been to Central Africa Republic, John's been to Chad, you know, all sorts of crazy places over the years.
• 52:51
  But yeah, our sort of core business, of course, is in East Africa, as you mentioned.
• 52:56
  So as you can, I'm sorry, Debbie.
• 52:57
  So as you can see by our partners throughout Africa, very well experienced, you know, local knowledge and they're the best at what they do.
• 53:06
  So when you come to Go Away, you can get what you're after through one of our partners down in the continent of Africa.
• 53:15
  cover everything literally from central, east, south, northern as well.
• 53:20
  And it'd be nice, Debbie, actually one time if we could get back together and maybe have a
• 53:24
  have a more in-depth chat about the gorillas, I know that's a very popular choice, or option, sorry, for people coming out of North America to see the gorillas, because you can
• 53:32
  see them nowhere else in the world other than Uganda and Rwanda.
• 53:37
  Or I believe there's some in the DRC, is that right?
• 53:40
  Yep, yep, I was there in 2020.
• 53:43
  I trekking there.
• 53:44
  That was first place we trekked.
• 53:45
  I'm sure you did as well back in the day when it was still dry out.
• 53:50
  Yeah, exactly.
• 53:52
  So that is like a truly unique opportunity.
• 53:55
  Well, as is Kilimanjaro for that matter, because there's no other mountain like Kili.
• 53:59
  But yeah, from the guerrillas, from a wildlife point of view, there's nowhere else in the world that you can do that.
• 54:03
  And Debbie has experience in there with Wild Frontier.
• 54:06
  So maybe we will get together and have a more in-depth chat about that.
• 54:09
  So Debbie, thank you very much for your time.
• 54:12
  Actually, I didn't ask you, where are you at the moment?
• 54:14
  Like physically, are in Moshe or...?
• 54:18
  No, no, I'm currently in Johannesburg.
• 54:20
  Are you in Johannesburg?
• 54:20
  Is that where you're based or are based up in Tanzania?
• 54:25
  what theoretically based in Johannesburg, but I'd say an aeroplane maybe.
• 54:30
  Yeah, every second day back and forth.
• 54:33
  Sometimes it feels like that.
• 54:35
  We're very privileged to travel a lot and see a lot of these places regularly and keep in touch with our partners and things like that and our offices on the ground.
• 54:48
  Wonderful.
• 54:48
  Is there anything else you'd like to leave our listening audience with before we say goodbye?
• 54:55
  Not really per se on a selling point of view, but all I'm going to say to you is do it now.
• 55:01
  Things change.
• 55:03
  Yeah, it's definitely, as I just mentioned, it's a unique part of the world, Africa in itself.
• 55:09
  it's a tall mountain in Africa.
• 55:11
  It's a doable trek for the average person.
• 55:13
  You don't need to be crazy fit.
• 55:15
  Just have the right mentality for it.
• 55:17
  I've, you know, when all my trek, trekkers for the Inca trail, it's not the altitude, it's the attitude.
• 55:23
  if you get that together, you'll have an amazing, challenge in front of you, stunning views, stunning people.
• 55:30
  And then after that, you've got East Africa at your doorstep, Tanzania, the Serengeti, Ambaseli, Lake Victoria, Uganda, it's all around each other.
• 55:39
  So there's so much to see and do with Kili literally being the crown of a trip to East Africa.
• 55:45
  So on that note, Debbie, thank you very much again for your time.
• 55:47
  Really appreciate it.
• 55:48
  And everyone out there, thank you for listening in.
• 55:50
  As always, we appreciate your time as well.
• 55:52
  And we will talk to you soon.
• 55:54
  Thank you.
• 55:55
  Thank you very much indeed for hosting us.
• 55:57
  Now pleasure.