Latest / The Authority Podcast — Expert Insights and Fresh Ideas for Education Leaders / Who’s Your Founding Father? with David Fleming
Transcript
- Ross Romano: [00:00:00] welcome everybody to another great episode here of the Authority on the Be Podcast Network. If you're listening, when we're just releasing, this is the 4th of July week, so hope you're all having a nice holiday here. But of course, yeah, don't skip a week listening to us. We have a great episode today. My guest is Dave Fleming. Dave is a senior writer at ESPN and during the last three decades at Sports Illustrated, s espn, the magazine and e s espn. He's been one of the industry's most prolific, versatile, and imaginative long form writers. He's traveled the globe while Penny, more than 35 cover stories and everything from the Super Bowl to Steph Curry musical chairs, the World Championship of Musical Chairs, which I never made it that far. I, I, I was the [00:01:00] kindergarten champ and, NFL's obsession with Glutes and his new book. Is, who's your founding father? One man's epic quest to uncover the first true Declaration of Independence. Perfect topic for this week. Dave. Welcome to the authority. David Fleming: Thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here. Ross Romano: Let's start here with a big question. We'll see how you can answer, but is everything we think we know about the founding of America? Wrong. David Fleming: Well we can get into it, but yeah, pretty much. And trust me, I was as shocked as you were. And I thought for a second you were gonna ask me about my musical chairs experience, but congratulations on your championship. But Ross Romano: Well, did you, did you get to participate, I guess, while you were covering? Did they get you in there and say, well, you have to see how hard this really is. David Fleming: Yes. And it was, I had no idea. It was like, roller derby. And I did, I made it to the, the world semi-finals. But trust me that [00:02:00] the hitting and the getting knocked off my feet at the, at that the musical chairs World Championship. Not nearly as, much of a shock to the system as kind of what I learned on this while researching this book. Ross Romano: I can imagine, let's start here. Just even, we're obviously gonna get into a lot of details here and some things that are, I think, going to, provide some new perspectives on our country's history. What got you interested in the story in the first place? David Fleming: It became an obsession after a while, but initially, we moved to North Carolina. About 25 years ago, and when I realized that this was gonna be our, home and the place where we raised our children, I think the natural inclination is you start to look into the history and the, you know, kind of what makes this place special, what makes it. Stand out. And I remember very specifically dropping my daughter Kate off at her elementary school. And I was waiting, I think, to talk to a teacher or something [00:03:00] in the lobby. And there was a North Carolina flag hanging in the lobby. And the date on the North Carolina flag is May 20th, 1775. And you know, this was like 15 years ago and the thought occurred to me, it's like, well, why would. North Carolina's date be 14 months before we even declared independence as a country. And you can appreciate this, right? Because it seems like you're into these kinda like rabbit hole threads and all this sort of like, maybe we don't know what we think we know. Just asking that one question sent me down this incredible historic rabbit hole. That again, sort of proved to me that, everything I thought I knew about the 4th of July and about the founding of America was incorrect or, incomplete. And so it was just seeing that one date and asking that one question and pulling that one thread and. My God, here we [00:04:00] are 10 years later. Ross Romano: And so that date, May 20th, 1775, you know that date it has the significance. You found out, okay, this is, wait a second. Right? And it's the kind of thing that a lot of people might see it and not really even think about it. And then there's a lot of other people who I'm sure, give it a lot of thought. Where does that date? Originally come from, like, why is that date on the flag. (ad here 4:26.00) David Fleming: So it dates to a story about the men. The, the Patriots who founded Charlotte and which was back in 1775, was on the, basically the American frontier. They were mostly Scott's Irish Presbyterians, but those men, that group of men. And it ranged from farmers to religious fanatics, to bartenders, to Princeton scholars, this incredible, crazy group of men who founded Charlotte, almost 250 years ago. They were the first [00:05:00] Americans to formally declare independence from England in writing. On May 20th, 1775. And in fact, not only did they, do that and they're the, it's a fascinating story of what led them to that point where they were just like, screw it. We're just putting it in writing. Like we're not waiting. But. A volunteer then wrote that document. The document was written, crafted, declared, and then it was written on horseback 550 miles up to the Continental Congress where it didn't gain any traction. But there is significant proof that 14 months later, Thomas Jefferson plagiarized that document while writing his own slightly more, famous declaration. Ross Romano: Right. And so this, document is, at least colloquially known as the Meck Deck, but the Mecklenburg Declaration of Independence. And, and I think you mentioned some of the groups associated with that and the fact that it, you [00:06:00] know, ended up looking maybe suspiciously similar to another declaration who do you know who wrote this? Who were the signers? I mean, who, who was, the real brains behind this? David Fleming: Yeah, it was this great mix of, again, sort of, uh, religious, almost religious fanaticism. So you've got that element, the sort of the Presbyterian element, which back then, especially the Calvinist bent of Presbyterianism, they were very, their number one tenant was, no mortal man, no politician, no king, nobody can rule man. Only God can rule man, and it's your high, highest form of obedience to God to fight against that kind of tyranny. So they were religiously, motivated to declare independence. Then you get the background of the Scots Irish, who essentially were kicked out of Scotland, kicked out of Ireland, kicked outta Pennsylvania, and came down to Carolina for freedom. They really, Having [00:07:00] endured this kind of tyranny for centuries and generations, they were really the first group in America to recognize that it wasn't gonna get any better. And we might as well just declare it right now in writing and just get it over with, let's start fighting. I mean, that was essentially the Scott's Irish. Take on the whole thing, but part of this perfect storm, right? We've got religion, we've got geopolitical, Scott's, Irish background. And that sort of feistiness is definitely part of this, but then it's incredible the six men who really formed and crafted. And wrote out the Mecklenburg Declaration of Independence were all Princeton scholars that just happened to be in Charlotte during that time when all this stuff was going on. So it's a really unique, it's a very sort of American thing, right? That it's, you've got these sort of, angry Scott's Irish who would just wanna fight everybody. They're the ones who sort of say, let's do this. And then you [00:08:00] actually have these Princeton scholars who could put it into words and write it down and declare it. Yeah, again, this is this incredible perfect storm form this declaration. And, you know, in a strange bit of coincidence, they were meeting in Charlotte at the courthouse in Charlotte. On the, at the very moment when word of Lexington and Concord arrived, and that was really the final, that was the spark that just blew this whole thing up. Ross Romano: Yeah. So because these Princeton scholars, I think what you uncovered is New Jersey, right? Lay's claim to the true declaration here. So these were the days, right, pre ai, where plagiarism was a little harder to prove. But, at some point in time, John Adams, Jefferson's lifelong rival, comes across this me deck and says, this sounds familiar. Did he go as far as really accusing Jefferson of plagiarism? David Fleming: He went even farther than that. He put it [00:09:00] in 1819, when John Adams discovered the MEC deck. He put it in writing to Jefferson and to other people that he knew, accusing Thomas Jefferson of plagiarizing the me deck. So John Adams did not mince words, right? He immediately, when he discovered the ME deck, he immediately wrote to Jefferson and said, basically, you're busted. I caught you, I knew you were a phony all along. And now I have receipts because, This mech deck sounds a lot like in probably five or six different areas. A lot like the declaration that Thomas Jefferson claimed to have written all by himself. So that's really where the story, for me, it was kinda like, okay, is this a, it's a legend, it's a folk tale. And then you see John Adams handwriting, accusing Thomas Jefferson of plagiarism. You're like, okay, this really happened. Ross Romano: Did Jefferson have a defense that you found David Fleming: It was kind of a typical [00:10:00] Jefferson defense, right? He tried to make nice, then he tried to sort of like defer you know, for centuries, all Jefferson had to do because he was held in such high esteem. All he had to do was say as especially his cronies, how dare you even question the character of Thomas Jefferson. But you know, in the last 20 years, thomas Jefferson's character, um, our perception of his character has done a complete 180. Back then you could, say, oh, I think he plagiarized. And people would say, oh no, he would never be capable of that. And now it seems like maybe ninth or 10th on the list of the worst things Thomas Jefferson did in his life. I know in the book originally I was just gonna write... thomas Jefferson enslaved his own children, so he probably was capable of plagiarism. Ross Romano: Right, and he seems to have, Even again in these days when, it may have been relatively easy, honestly for [00:11:00] something like this to have gone undiscovered, that he still went to some lengths to cover this up and, to try to cover his tracks even if he wasn't ultimately successful. David Fleming: Yeah, and I think, again, I think what was really fascinating, and hard to do right, because nobody wants to kind of. Learn these terrible things about people that we've held in such high esteem. But it really fits a pattern of Thomas Jefferson's throughout his entire life, right? Do terrible things. Take credit for stuff you didn't do. When you get exposed, cover it up and get your cronies to sort of help in the conspiracy to cover it up. And the MEC deck fits perfectly into the actions that Jefferson took throughout his life. It's, it's, it's uncanny really. And I think, again, with Jefferson, it comes down to the lie. That's the other thing you discover about the declaration, and July 4th is that he wasn't tasked with writing anything [00:12:00] original. He was just told to sort of take care of this. Essentially what was overdue? Paperwork. We were at risk of losing the Revolutionary War before we had even declared our independence. And so it was a rush job, and they were like, look, just cut and paste, grab stuff from everywhere. All the sentiments of the day synthesize it. And so we have something we can sign formally and. That's what he did, but it when the declaration became famous and became this incredible document of human history, Jefferson then took full credit for writing it, even though it was a committee, and he also took full credit for all the ideas and phrases, which was just a hundred percent not true. Ross Romano: Yeah, so much of what you describe about Jefferson, even in this light is making me think. He would fit right in, in modern times. What in eighties, you know, he is, you know, blatantly being caught, doing something, lying about it, going about his life [00:13:00] anyway. Creating his own narrative, his own legend. In a lot of ways it makes, complete sense, right? Could anybody really be, this good at this many different things? Of course. And, like you said, it was a functional document, right? It wasn't meant to be a distinctive prose, it was meant to communicate a specific demand. And then once it becomes something that's lauded, it's like, yeah, of course I'm a genius. I wrote this. It's beautiful. David Fleming: I gotta tell you, you're the point though that you make and it is so good because it helped me because I was like in reading the things that, like John Adams and his supporters, Wrote to Thomas Jefferson and the stuff that the Jeffersonians accused John Adams of, I was like, oh, okay. The political climate today, not even, not nearly as rough or disorganized or awful as it was at the very founding of our country. And it, does put you at ease a little bit because you're like, [00:14:00] okay, this is part of democracy. This has been going on in cycles. For our entire existence as a country. Yeah, the stuff that Thomas Jefferson's cronies accused John Adams of being a hermaphrodite, not possessing the sensibilities of a woman and not strong enough to be, thought of as a man. And, you know, it's like, okay, maybe all the political rhetoric today isn't quite as bad as we think it is. Ross Romano: Right. Yeah. It's, interesting how these things, they keep coming back. So going back to the beginning, you noticed this date on the flag. You thought that's, curious. you became interested in this and probably some amount of time passed before you started pursuing it in earnest, this book, but. Then you go and you start talking to people, you start researching, pulling things. What did you find when you started to talk to people? Were there a lot of people who were just kind of like hoping somebody was gonna come and ask them about this? You know, was there a lot of awareness of this or interest? David Fleming: I couldn't believe, [00:15:00] well, first of all, I was shocked that no one had done a book like this already. I mean, the story is incredible and the things that it uncovers are groundbreaking. So I was really surprised that no one had. Beaten me to it and I was relieved. I couldn't believe the amount of which the Mecklenburg declaration. It sort of hides in plain sight. it's all over the place in North Carolina. There are statues and roads and churches and parks and archives and cemeteries. It's the proof of this is, everywhere. And I think it was a longstanding battle between North Carolina and Virginia over who should get credit for being the sort of cradle of American independence. So that was the, I was shocked at how much was out there. I thought it was gonna be me digging through archives and cemeteries, finding scraps of this and scraps of that. Like the John Adams letters they're profuse. You know, I thought maybe if I could find one little scrap it's pages and [00:16:00] pages and pages of documents. So I was relieved that there was so much stuff and that it's, it was such, it ended up being such a great, fun story to tell too. It's, it is not dry history. It's, some of this stuff is the twists and turns are crazy. Ross Romano: Yeah, I hadn't really heard about all this, but there's. Prominent individuals who had a lot of awareness and even, straight up acknowledgement. Right. Of the reality here. I think it's this 11 US Presidents and at Burns George will, I mean, people who have media platforms who have reach. I did. What was their perspectives on this that you found? David Fleming: You make a, you make really good points. Ken Burns, David McCullough, Andrew Roberts, who wrote Napoleon and Churchill and King George iii, KKI Roberts, the list just goes on and on. And then on top of that, men like Billy Graham used to preach Meek and 1111 US presidents, [00:17:00] five US presidents have come to Charlotte. To celebrate and commemorate the metech in person and I live here and I had no idea any of those people were involved or supported it. It also opens up this really fascinating avenue of why we believe, what we believe and what things that we decide have enough proof and things that don't have enough proof, but. Somebody like David McCullough and Coie Roberts too, they were like, you know, the preponderance of evidence, especially the anecdotal eyewitness evidence is beyond reproach. And it's nice when you feel like, man, do I wanna be saying all these things? And then you go, well, I mean, I'm not the only one saying I'm all these really respected historians and. And all these presidents have said it already. I'm just joining the chorus on that I think. Ross Romano: Right. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting when you think about, especially again, we talked about the. [00:18:00] Times of the internet, right? And everybody has a platform and, media personalities and some of these people being documentarians and columnists and presidents, who has more reach than that? And, perhaps there were perspectives, and maybe you found this among some people you talked to who are like, well, the evidence seems to be that this is true, but. What does it really mean? I guess I, I don't know if people thought that, it's not that it's, a conspiracy theory, but it's just like substantively what's the outcome? And the outcome maybe is that okay, Jefferson doesn't look so good in, in retrospect, but other than that, does it change anything? Subs, you know, maybe people just said, Well, we just never talked about it before because we didn't think anybody would care, or we just, you know, when it came up, we did talk about it. I, I wrote about it, but nobody, I don't know. But then it seems to be that you found, well, all the evidence was out there, but nobody really followed it.[00:19:00] David Fleming: The metech has gone in cycles as well. Right? It has become national obsession. And then almost died out and then become a national obsession and then almost died out. And that coincides with the Civil War. It coincides with the president's visiting in the early, early 20th century. So yeah, the mech deck is, a victim of these sort of waves of interest and non-interest, but, For me, I guess the thing that really started this whole thing was when Virginia tried to claim too much credit for the Declaration For, Fighting the Revolutionary War for, for all that stuff, and North Carolina just said, Hey, hey, wait a second. We were first and. I do think, we care in America, we care who was first. We care who was the first man on the moon. We care about the first person to break the four minute Maya like being first matters. And in this instance it really does because again, [00:20:00] from a patriotic standpoint, by the time Jefferson wrote his declaration, it was already a foregone conclusion that we were at war. People had already died. It didn't take a lot of bravery to write his declaration. It was overdue paperwork. But what the men in Charlotte did, they did it before it was safe to do it, they did it knowing that they, if somebody found this document, they could all be hung for treason. So to me, it does really matter. It does really matter who did it first. And you make another really good point about, for the longest time, after we declared independence and we fought the Revolutionary War, the idea that this democracy would actually catch on or work or even last, nobody really knew that for sure. And so for the first. 50 years, almost 45 years of, America, no one celebrated the revolution or the declaration. It was like we couldn't [00:21:00] even take a breath. We were trying to sort of see if this experiment would work. And I think that really contributed to the MEC deck being lost to time because all these decades went by before somebody celebrated who was first at declaring independence, and then it was kind of like, you said, it's, is it really that important? Ross Romano: Right. July 4th wasn't July 4th until whenever. Right. And then by that point, it was, assigned by whomever was around at the time and wanted to make it a big deal. And, uh, David Fleming: Except in North Carolina because. Forever. They have celebrated May 20th, oh, not instead of, but bigger, May 20th, bigger than July 4th even. I live in a little college town and I found some records from about a hundred years ago where the faculty was arguing that they should celebrate, they should do away with July 4th and celebrate May 20th as our independence day. So, at least here where I am. Yeah, [00:22:00] it's a, it's, the date is a big deal. Ross Romano: Yeah, well, why not have more than one? It starts in North Carolina, you start to see the evidence, you're finding, documents in small towns across the state. So what made you travel to London as part of the, process that seems like it's a bit of a distance to go. David Fleming: Yeah, there's a great scene in the book where I'm, I am full on obsessed now with the me deck, with like searching through archives and cemeteries and my wife is, I mean, God bless her. She's supporting me this whole time. But at when I was at my deepest obsession, I found that there were, there were possibly proof and documentation of the MEC deck in the British National Archives, and I texted my wife and said, I think I need to go to London. And she was, she was like, um, okay, are you gonna use frequent fire miles? I'm like, yeah. And she was like, all right, have a good trip. But. You know, the original document, the original [00:23:00] Mecklenburg Declaration of Independence burned in 1800, which is not uncommon. That happens all throughout American history documents that are really important, burned, I mean, house fires were in incredibly common. So the original document, Was destroyed. But there is proof that was printed in newspapers. It was referred to in, church records, in war pension applications, and it was, mentioned several times by the final royal governor of North Carolina, Josiah Martin, and all of his archives and documents and letters are in the British National Archives. And there was also some speculation that. In some of these letters that he sent to the Earl of Dartmouth, who was the, essentially like the Secretary of State during the Revolutionary War for England, that Josiah Martin in his letters about the MEC deck and about the sort of full on rebellion that was going on in North Carolina. He included[00:24:00] a reprint of the MEC deck from a newspaper at the time. And what you discover, what I discovered in the British National Archives is this has been there, that letter and that newspaper had been there for hundreds of years until an associate of Thomas Jefferson's went to the archives, took the proof out and destroyed it. And there's actually a note, a handwritten note from an archivist that says, The name of this man that he was associated with Thomas Jefferson and that he took the proof and didn't return it. And so again, now it's like, well, I'm not just writing a book. I'm in the middle of like a national treasure. Part three, I felt like Nick Cage or Indiana Jones because now it's like a full on conspiracy that goes all the way to the height of the US government and across the Atlantic Ocean. (ad here 24:56.60) Ross Romano: It sounds as though, you determined [00:25:00] pretty quickly when you started looking into this that there was a lot of evidence around a lot of documentation. That there was a story there. Which is making me think, you know, obviously you went to London, also some other travel involved here at what, at what point. Were you officially working on the book? At what point did you have the book deal and you knew, because it sounds as though, right? You determined pretty fast. Yes, there's a book here, there's a lot of stuff around here, but, certainly once you start to make these trips, that's probably, once you know what, you're working on. David Fleming: Yeah. For me it was, I went to Quincy, Massachusetts where John Adams, his home and all of his presidential records and all that stuff are kept. And when you see. His letters to Thomas Jefferson about the MEC deck, and you can hold him in your hands. That's when, for me, it's a really good point. That's for me when it was like, I'm all in, and John Adams, it's really interesting. John Adams in one of his final [00:26:00] letters of his life and on the MEC tech, he says, I hope. Future generations will investigate this more, and make it more well known what happened, what the Patriots in Charlotte did, and how Thomas Jefferson abused that. And it was almost like this, it's cheesy, but it's almost like, I felt like John Adams was telling me, asking me like, carry this on. Like, make, you know. Go ahead and do this story. And so it was, it was being in Massachusetts when it was like, okay, I'm all in. I I, I'm gonna follow this to the end and do what John Adams asked, which is just make people more people aware of it. Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting to think about there, because you, have to have some sense. You don't know exactly where it's going to go, but you have some sense, okay, this is going to add up to something it was making me think of. I won't identify them and not to knock my own medium, but, a podcast series I listened to not that long ago that was, You know, sort of [00:27:00] investigative, right? Not, not quite to this level, but, around a topic in the sports world, but it was maybe a six part series. And as I was listening to it, I was thinking, I, I think they started, you know, they committed the six parts before they, they knew the whole story. Cause this, they kind of ran outta steam around part three, right? There just wasn't as much to this story as was originally intended. And then it sort of putters along. Versus in this case, of course, there's this vast web and a lot of things to discover. And, and I mean, the Freedom Spring. Another thing here where it's like, oh my, goodness. I'm really just uncovering all kinds of things. David Fleming: Yeah. We've all been guilty of that, where we start on a project that we think, Is gonna be six episodes or 6,000 words, and you get into it and you're like, uhoh, this is, this is, um, half the magazine pages I thought I, would need. And there's no shame in that. But, this [00:28:00] one truly even midway through it, it was like, oh my God, I could work on this for 20 years and not be, it was more that I had to cut off the spigot and. I understood researching this book, why people take 10 years on Books because, All these different threads and different, these really interesting angles, you could just follow them forever. And I think what really helped me too was I wrote it. I didn't write it as a history book. It's more sort of my adventure, trying to discover this story, uncover this story, and. That's what really gave the book It for me, gave it momentum. Is that it? I had so much fun. It was such a blast kind of just doing this thing and following these threads, and you're right, freedom Spring is maybe the best example of that. Freedom Spring is the natural spring outside of Charlotte, where these Princeton scholars used to meet to discuss writing the MEC deck. So technically this spring, [00:29:00] Is the actual sort of birthplace, the cradle of American independence, cuz it was the first place where they decided, here's what we're gonna say, here's when we're gonna say it, here's when we're gonna write it and declare it. And this spring had been lost for more than a century. And probably my favorite part of the book. And it involves, me convincing a local Baptist minister who knew the area. Trespass through a couple of different, places that we didn't, own the property and different construction sites. And with his research, or I should say my research and his knowledge of the area and his willingness to commit a few crimes, we were able to find the freedom Spring. And there's a great scene in the book where it's like, I was overcome because it was, it's such an exact. Physical connection right back to the mech deck. I reached my hand into the spring when we found it, and I took a little sip and did a toast. And he was like, I [00:30:00] wouldn't do that if I were you. But, in the book I wrote, you know, I've either, I have either just shared a toast with our founding fathers, or I've given myself the worst case of diarrhea in the history of modern literature, but as you can see, I'm still fine. I definitely survived it and, I would do it again. I think. Ross Romano: Yeah, maybe it was both. Did, uh, did investigating this story, make you think more broadly about the relative, recognition and, history around the Southern Colonies role in the Revolutionary War and the way that story is told and, and how they're, not commonly featured, all that prominently in a lot of the history as it's written. David Fleming: Yeah. I'm really glad you brought that up because that is a, that's connected to the MEC deck. Right. Not only does Charlotte and North Carolina not really get the credit they deserve for being [00:31:00] the first to declare independence, but that was the other thing I learned when pulling on these threads. The Southern Theater of the Revolutionary War was a critical turning point that none of us ever have ever been taught or learned about in history class. It's incredible and. We all know that Cornwallis surrendered in Yorktown. What we don't know is why was he there? And a big part of why he was there is that he got his butt kicked through South Carolina and North Carolina by the MEC Deckers, and had to go to the coast to recover and recoup. And so again, the original plan of the Southern Theater was. Come in through Charleston, just wreck havoc, crush all these little local militias, and then get all the loyalists to join up. And by the time Cornwallis makes it through North Carolina and turns [00:32:00] North, he will be able to meet the forces coming down from New York in the middle. That was always the plan. And it was going really well until Cornwallis got to Charlotte and that was the first place, even though Charlotte was outnumbered out, outnumbered 15 to one, I think that was the first place where Cornwallis had to retreat, the first time on American soil where he had to go backwards and it ruined. England's entire plan for the Southern Theater of the War. And again, I had no idea. Literally, I had no idea until I was in the middle of writing this book, how critical the South was in helping us win our independence. And it's incredible to me that, that the South doesn't get more, credit for that or just even more acknowledgement, for that critical role. Ross Romano: Yeah, it's, it's interesting. Globally it was making me think about, I, spent time, it's been a while now, but, a good amount of time in [00:33:00] Australia and there's a, significant amount of. Pride Australia New Zealand, around their role in World War ii. And I'm thinking, you are not mentioned in the history that we learned about the war, right? Like I, I don't think I could have told you that you were in that war at all. Because it's just not, it's not part of. The narrative that's told. And of course in the broad picture, everything has its own place. But, certainly, how, the folks in those northern colonies, the MidAtlantic, the ones that are most prominently featured there, after, at elementary school, might have a hard time saying, okay, what exactly were a 13 colony was, Georgia one of them? Right. David Fleming: You're exactly right. You're exactly right. And I think that's part of this thing is the way our brains work. And you just nailed it. It, right? We get to a certain age, we believe what our history teachers have told us in eighth grade, and [00:34:00] then we just lock it down. It's like, oh, bunker Hill, Boston Tea Party, valley Forge and Yorktown, and that's it. I'm done. Right. I'm not gonna learn anymore. And that's what makes it so hard when you're trying to be like, Hey, hey, there's so much more incredible stuff that you, need to know and acknowledge. And appreciate because we're talking about people who died, right? To help us, sacrifice their lives, to help us gain our independence. It's the least we can do is at least include them in the narrative. Ross Romano: Yeah, it's, certainly that process of what you did with this book and what. Successful historians do with history. What a successful, person in the ministry would do with the, the Bible, right? Is like contextualizing it, putting yourself in that place and time that just. Knowing what happened or reciting the facts of what happened is doesn't really teach you anything or it's not that [00:35:00] interesting. So when you contextualize, the courage required at different points in time to make the declaration right to, to go out on a limb at a time when it may have. Led to negative consequences versus stating it when everybody already knew what was going on. The same as so many other things to say, okay, what did this mean in that time? We only have so many pages here that are describing years, decades, centuries of, that and, the time they were living in was very different from now and it's easy to look back now, one. That we know what happened, we know what the outcome was. We know how the war went, we know what history has meant since then. We kind of know, but we don't necessarily know at that time, what were the sentiments, how many of their fellow colonists would, were opposed to the idea of independence, period. And what might those words have meant. And same with [00:36:00] the, story of the plagiarism, right? It only, it becomes what it becomes because of the ultimate historical impact of the document and the legacy and how it contributed to the legacy of Jefferson over the centuries, as the founding father in that role. even more so than the individual framers of the Constitution and other documents that it, it's not as well remembered. What, what did James Madison do and what, you know, these, because he was. Held up there as that auteur theory, right? The singular voice who created this thing, Dave, but kind of as we're winding down here, I didn't want to go to a bit of a lightning round to get through a, variety of topics here. The first one, I, didn't even know I was gonna ask this until now, but, what's the soundtrack at the world? Music Chairs, musical Chairs Championship. David Fleming: Oh, it's pretty awesome. It was mostly, it was like, 90, it was like [00:37:00] nineties hip hop and eighties pop, so it was. The music was probably the best part of that, and they had a full on dj, but they had to, he had to be, blindfolded because they didn't want him cheating about when he would stop the music. Ross Romano: I wonder how, important is it to know the songs to be able to identify when the music has stopped? David Fleming: Um, I, it's. I, you would think it would help, but it doesn't because it's just a random, record stop. So he's not waiting for like a beat drop to, it's like he just stops it. What really becomes, it's how many elbows you can throw and how low you can get your hips. And I can't remember what the prize was, but people will fight each other for a free T-shirt. I'll tell you that much. Ross Romano: How high are the chairs? David Fleming: I mean, they're like regular folding chairs. And they were, it was like W W F because, people were throwing their, it was like linebackers colliding, so the chairs had to be breakable and [00:38:00] foldable. Ross Romano: Cause I'm about six five. I'm thinking I would be at a disadvantage, right? Because if you're at the right exact height, you can get right into that chair. I'm not gonna ask anymore about, it's interesting that you participate. Writing in sports, I'm sure you've heard the theories that we should just put a regular person in Olympic events, right? Like, just have some guy running the a hundred meters so you could see how fast these people really are and that kinda thing. This might not be Olympic level, but hey, get in there. And these people practiced. They really, yeah. They tear up the rug in their, living rooms. And, their China cabinets are, a disaster, but they're. They're the gold medalist. So when you first started talking to people just in your life, not sources for the book, but you said, Hey, there's this story and I'm working on this. What kind of response did people have? Were they, did they know anything about it or did they think that sounds like, kind of a crazy story. David Fleming: Thank you. I can't believe someone finally is, going to, do this [00:39:00] story and. Especially locally, right? It was kind of like, oh, thankfully the story will live on. But there is, and it's a term we call, in the book, it's called Med Deck Face. And, you've had it a little bit and other people have it. When you learn the actual, these actual details behind the me deck, behind the war behind what Jefferson's accused of. People just can't believe it. Their jaws just drop that. The actual truth behind these things behind July 4th is so much different than what our eighth grade teachers, told us. So I got a lot of mech tech face in response. Ross Romano: Yeah. And see, and even throughout this year, you're, almost like cluing me into, I live in Virginia. I didn't grow up here, but I have been here for quite a while. But I didn't know about this rivalry in North Carolina we're in Arlington so it's like, not really Virginia, cuz it's more dc but I'm like, man, I didn't know I was supposed to uphold our legacy here against North Carolina.[00:40:00] David Fleming: You know when Jefferson's cronies. Accused North Carolina of lying about the mech deck. There are priests and preachers that went on record saying, I will drive myself up to Virginia and physically confront any Virginian who doubts the mech deck. So, Uh, north Carolina's not messing around. They had priests who were like, I wanna fight anyone who doubts the mech deck. And I will add quickly. When William Howard Taft came to Charlotte to celebrate the mech deck, he said he would brain anyone who dared doubt the document. Ross Romano: I don't doubt it. I don't doubt it at all. Was there anything that's, that you found most shocking even though when you knew there was a lot here that really stood out as, I did not expect to find that. David Fleming: It was the layer upon layer of awfulness with Thomas Jefferson. I think most of us know a few of those stories, but it was kind of like it, was never ending and. I went into this thinking [00:41:00] of him a certain way, and by the end I was almost fatigued by just awful story after awful story, after awful story. And I mean, whether it's, his relationship with Sally Hemmings or, the way he terrorized his friends' wives when they went outta town, or the way he lied about the MEC deck and covered it up, or about his own sort of, the way he approached slavery and the fact that he, I think he had 607 slaves and he only freed two of them during his entire lifetime. That to me was, I'm still, I mean, the book's been out for a month. I'm still in shock when I think about the difference between what Thomas Jefferson was really like and what we all perceived him to be like. Ross Romano: Right. Was there any, anybody who came out positively on the other side of that? Anybody you learned or you knew about, prior to the book? But came out saying, oh, I actually have a, newfound appreciation for this person. David Fleming: I think a [00:42:00] lot of it, for me it was, it was John Adams, right? Again, we've all seen the, we read the book and we've seen the H B O thing, and he's sort of turned into a cartoon character, right? Of a grumpy old man. I think, without a doubt, One of, if not the greatest Americans in history. Just what he stood for and the work that he did and committing his entire life to, getting this country off the ground and then associated with that. You realize that his secret weapon was Abigail Adams was his wife. She really was the true sort of badass of that family. So that was kind of nice to uncover, a deeper sense of who John Adams was. Ross Romano: Right. Uh, who was Captain James Jack? David Fleming: So he's known as the South Paul Revere, but he's the guy on May 20th, 1775. When they write and declare the MEC deck, they look around for somebody and they need a [00:43:00] volunteer. So, To risk his life to Dr. To ride the mech deck by horseback up to the continental Congress in Philadelphia. And Captain James Jack was a militia captain and he was also a tavern owner. And so I really think he was probably half drunk and was like, I'll do it. And then they handed him the mech deck and knowing that if he got caught with that, he would be hung for treason. He rode the mech deck 550 miles. All the way up to Philadelphia. And so in Charlotte, there are beers named after Captain Jack there. There's a incredible statue. There are parks. There are, our soccer team is named in honor of him. He is like a legend in Charlotte. Ross Romano: Fire drift miles. Gilles is a trip. Yeah. And for all my Boston friends out there, you need to know that that Captain James Jack is called Paul Revere of the South, only braver. Okay. So before, uh, David Fleming: in the [00:44:00] South. We love to point off, point out to people, especially in Boston, that it was like Captain Jack rode 538 miles farther than Paul Revere and he never got caught. So who's the true patriot? Ross Romano: Right. Exactly. And you mentioned, captain Jack May, there's beer named after him, and he may have been half drunk on this ride. Did you put out a beer, in conjunction with a book launch? David Fleming: We did inspired by Captain Jack, and again, this is sort of part of this whole thing from start to finish has just been a blast and I hope it comes across in the book, which people say is fun to read, but. We thought what a perfect way to sort of honor the Scotts Irish Patriots and especially Captain Jack. We teamed up with the publisher, teamed up with a local brewery, near where I live in North Carolina and they put out Mech Deck Honey Ale, associated with the book. And the cover of the book is on the cover of the beer. It's actually quite delicious [00:45:00] and. This past month it's been the brewery's number one selling beer. The book might not be selling, but the beer is. Ross Romano: There you go. Well, if you're down there in North Carolina, check it out. The last one here, if. We obviously have an opportunity now when we go back and revisit what we know about history and learn new things and reconstruct our knowledge for maybe you and me we're unlearning and relearning things we learned before, but, for a certain generation they're still learning these things for the first time. Is there one thing that stands out to you from what you discovered in this book and what you find most meaningful that you would want? Today's students to know, to learn as part of their history. David Fleming: I think you touched on it, perfectly, right? It's the idea. Of, I think the most patriotic thing we can do is learn the whole story, you can still be a fan of Jefferson, you can still be a fan of Virginia's role in the Revolutionary War and Independence. [00:46:00] All I'm saying is, Expand your knowledge, right? Learn as much as you can. Don't put those walls up after you learn four or five things and you memorize them and then move on. Be open to all these incredible threads of history that, as a tapestry really make up. Who we are and how we started as a country. And so I'm not saying make up your mind on one thing or the other, just be open to all the different, threads and ideas out there because, just by being open to that has sort of taken me on this incredible adventure. And, I would encourage other people to do the same thing. Ross Romano: Amazing. So, Dave, I really wanna thank you for being here on the show. Anything else you're working on right now or anywhere else our listeners can check out what you've been working on? David Fleming: You can see all my work really at my Twitter, which is phlegm, espn. And I do have a couple of different great stories working right now for ESPN that'll probably be coming [00:47:00] out, this summer sometime. But they deal with. Different topics such as sports, riots, burpees, and this strange story about, sports collectors and Barbies. So that's, I'll just give you a little hint about that after you finish the book. You should check that out. Ross Romano: Great. Well, I hope your interest is peaked out there, listeners. Yeah, please do. We'll put the link below, to Amazon and to Hashet as the publisher for who's your founding father, where you can find the book. If you missed Father's Day, maybe you can buy it for your father or just enjoy it. It's a great summer read. Of course relates to everything that's happening right now, the 4th of July in independence and the time of year when we think about these things, right? So perfect timing there. Please also do subscribe to the Authority for more author interviews like this one, and visit b podcast network.com to learn about all of our shows. I think we're at 25 plus now. I should know this as the co-founder, but I can't even keep up. We're doing pretty well here in Dave Plumbing. Thanks so much for joining the [00:48:00] show. David Fleming: Oh, thanks. I had a really good time. I really appreciate it. And, happy second, um, independence Day. I guess we'll put it that way. Ross Romano: Absolutely thank David Fleming: you