Latest / Smart Business Growth with Nicky Miklós / Unleashing the Power of Storytelling in Business with Gabrielle Dolan

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Unleashing the Power of Storytelling in Business with Gabrielle Dolan · Smart Business Growth with Nicky Miklós

• 0:04
  Nicky: Welcome to the Smart Business Growth Podcast with Nicky and.
• 0:08
  Nicky: Ness.
• 0:11
  Ness: We would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of country, the Turrbal and Bunurong people of Brisbane and Melbourne respectively, where Nicky and I both work and live.
• 0:21
  Ness: Gabrielle Dolan can tell you a story or two.
• 0:31
  Ness: In fact, it was while working in a senior leadership role at National Australia Bank that she realised the power of storytelling in effective business communication.
• 0:37
  Ness: Since that epiphany, gabrielle, or Raoul as we call her, has found her calling as a global expert on strategic storytelling and real communication, and today we get to tap into her wisdom.
• 0:49
  Ness: If you're a leader in business, then you'll gain so much from learning about storytelling.
• 0:54
  Ness: In our chat, we cover off why it matters, what the impact can be and some tips and tricks on what makes up a really good story.
• 1:01
  Ness: Probably more importantly, what to avoid.
• 1:04
  Ness: If you're looking for a way to fast track connection and increase influence, then you are in exactly the right place today.
• 1:11
  Ness: One of the things that leaders tell me about business at the moment is that it can be really tough.
• 1:17
  Ness: We are dealing with a rapid change of pace in many businesses, both sort of public sector, private sector, small, large business.
• 1:26
  Ness: There's the political climate, the economic climate.
• 1:31
  Ness: There's, I guess, the challenge of particularly the younger generation not necessarily being committed for very long in an organisation.
• 1:41
  Ness: And then, of course, the day-to-day challenge that comes with running a business, when you're trying to engage your team and really get them on board to your vision and what you want to achieve so that the business can be successful.
• 1:52
  Ness: And one of the things, gabrielle, when we met you that was just so profound for me was the absolute power that finding a different way to communicate and engage has, particularly through what you shared with us around storytelling.
• 2:09
  Ness: So we really wanted to have you on because it's just made an impact, a big impact for us, but also, sharing that with our clients, it's made some big impacts there.
• 2:17
  Ness: So, without further ado, I'm going to open up to you to let us know like what is storytelling and why, as leaders and business owners, would we even want to think about making this as part of our toolkit that helps us to get our message out and really engage people?
• 2:35
  Gabriella: Yeah, excellent, and thanks for having me, because there is nothing I like better than talking about the power of storytelling.
• 2:41
  Gabriella: So it was and I can sort of go back a bit.
• 2:43
  Gabriella: It was, like, you know, I sort of first discovered storytelling as a powerful skill probably about 20 years ago, when I worked as a senior leader in National Australia Bank and I was leading big change projects and what I found is that when I shared a story and a personal story, it seemed to get the message across and people seem to understand it and it seemed to sort of draw people into what I was saying.
• 3:05
  Gabriella: So, you know, I left NAB sort of not long after that and thought storytelling is an absolute skill and I think it's a skill everyone can learn and get better at it.
• 3:16
  Gabriella: Storytelling has evolved.
• 3:18
  Gabriella: So, you know, 20 years ago no one was talking about it.
• 3:22
  Gabriella: It does seem to be the buzzword at the moment, which you know is good, it's good for business, for me, but I think and it's not a fad, I don't think it's people go.
• 3:29
  Gabriella: Is it a fad?
• 3:30
  Gabriella: I go.
• 3:30
  Gabriella: Humans have been telling stories since you know day one, and you need to look no further than our Indigenous community of the power of stories, where you know Dreamtime stories.
• 3:41
  Gabriella: The lessons of those stories have been passed down for tens of thousands of years through the story.
• 3:45
  Gabriella: So storytelling is not a fad.
• 3:47
  Gabriella: Business has just woken up to how powerful it is, and so one of the work I love and talking about it is.
• 3:59
  Gabriella: A lot of the time people don't even think of sharing a story.
• 4:00
  Gabriella: My focus is always on personal stories because I think they are the most powerful stories anyone can share, but they're the most underutilized and I think they're under and I think people don't do it for a few reasons.
• 4:11
  Gabriella: It's almost like they think it's not professional, like what?
• 4:14
  Gabriella: Why would I tell a personal story about what I do?
• 4:17
  Gabriella: So they don't think it's professional.
• 4:19
  Gabriella: So part of my training is actually showing them it's not only not professional, but it's one of the most effective ways you can influence and communicate.
• 4:27
  Gabriella: So why would you not do it?
• 4:29
  Gabriella: And then giving them the skills and the capability then leads to them the confidence to actually do it.
• 4:36
  Gabriella: So it's almost like I hope I give people permission to use it.
• 4:40
  Gabriella: Where some people go, you know, it never even occurred to me to share a personal story, but through the training they've now got the capability.
• 4:48
  Gabriella: And then for the confidence.
• 4:50
  Gabriella: And you know it is a skill.
• 4:51
  Gabriella: As you said, ness, at the start, it's an absolute skill and, just like any other skill, some of us will be naturally better at than others, but all of us can get better with the right training and support to do so.
• 5:03
  Nicky: And I think also the framework around that, so that can give the confidence.
• 5:06
  Nicky: Because I think also personal stories.
• 5:09
  Nicky: There's so many different reasons I imagine that people don't want to share personal stories.
• 5:14
  Nicky: You know, things that are coming up in my mind are around, if I think, old school, corporate, it's not professional, like you said, and interesting, this whole awakening around storytelling in business.
• 5:24
  Nicky: It's kind of like the whole mindfulness in business.
• 5:27
  Nicky: I remember in corporate a decade, couple of decades ago, I was like, oh, what's meditation?
• 5:31
  Nicky: No, that's not for us.
• 5:32
  Nicky: Or self-care, which is so important in terms of what we talk about around moving away from the hustle culture.
• 5:39
  Nicky: And so this is another aspect to more human, I suppose, human leadership, human business being more present and therefore being able to engage people.
• 5:52
  Nicky: And I'd love to go a little bit deeper on the personal side of things, the personal story.
• 5:57
  Nicky: So we talked about or actually you tell me what are the reasons that you think people hold back?
• 6:02
  Nicky: Why don't they want to share personal stories?
• 6:05
  Gabriella: Yeah, so a couple of things.
• 6:06
  Gabriella: I think one of the things I just said about that they don't even think they're like it's professional, so they don't do it.
• 6:11
  Gabriella: And even if they do say see some people do it, they go well, I just don't know how to do it.
• 6:15
  Gabriella: That is one reason.
• 6:17
  Gabriella: There is certainly a generational gap, and so when I first started seeing this, you know half the vast majority of the people I would speak to or would be in my training rooms would be going storytelling.
• 6:29
  Gabriella: Give me a break.
• 6:30
  Gabriella: What the hell has that got to do with anything?
• 6:31
  Gabriella: I very rarely see that now.
• 6:34
  Gabriella: It was like I think that it's a generational thing and you've got younger leaders, but you've also, like Ness, as you introduced it, we've got a whole new generation that they want to be connected to the organisation.
• 6:46
  Gabriella: They want to be connected to the leader.
• 6:48
  Gabriella: They're more values driven than we ever were.
• 6:51
  Gabriella: They want to connect to purpose, and the only way you can do that is through story, because story creates the connection.
• 6:57
  Gabriella: Look, you clearly need all the data and the information.
• 7:00
  Gabriella: I'm not saying that's not important, but people don't connect with that, so it's through.
• 7:04
  Gabriella: To me, storytelling is, and the reason the personal story is.
• 7:08
  Gabriella: Look, I come from storytelling from a purely practical perspective.
• 7:12
  Gabriella: I used to be a leader.
• 7:13
  Gabriella: I run my own business, so I understand the frustrations and challenges of all that, like leadership and sales and all that.
• 7:22
  Gabriella: I know that when you share a story, it helps you communicate your message better and it gets it across.
• 7:29
  Gabriella: I also know that when you share a personal story to do that because all the research shows this both what I've experienced in the last 20 years, what my clients have told me, but also what the research says from neuroscientists people a hell of a lot smarter than me that when you hear a story, as a human being, you not only connect to the story but you connect to the storyteller.
• 7:50
  Gabriella: So it can actually strengthen connections between the person sharing the story and who they're sharing the story with.
• 7:58
  Gabriella: And if you think of that as in a leadership, like you're the people you lead.
• 8:02
  Gabriella: Every time you share a personal story, you're strengthening that connection, whether you're with clients or potential clients, and it can not only strengthen a relationship and a connection, it can fast track it.
• 8:11
  Gabriella: So you're meeting a client for the first time.
• 8:14
  Gabriella: You know the stories you can share can be really powerful.
• 8:17
  Gabriella: And the other thing, too.
• 8:18
  Gabriella: When I say personal stories, I'm not talking about you know your deepest, darkest fears and secrets, and like going deep into therapy, and it's just.
• 8:29
  Gabriella: Sometimes it's just a case of something that didn't happen at work, and you're using that A lot of people, business owners, for example.
• 8:36
  Gabriella: I can almost guarantee you, if you're listening to this and you're the owner of a business, you started that business for a reason, and I reckon I could spend five minutes with you and find the story, or the stories why you started the business, why you're passionate about what you do, and I think sometimes and this is still answering your question business owners and maybe small to medium business owners feel the need that they want the company to feel bigger than what they are, and they may have started sharing their personal story, but they stopped doing it.
• 9:11
  Gabriella: They sort of go it's no longer about me, we're bigger and we want to grow.
• 9:15
  Gabriella: Yes, it's still about you, though, and that story that shows your passion about why you started, shows why you are doing what you do.
• 9:24
  Gabriella: That is such a powerful story, and it should be shared both internally and externally at any opportunity you get.
• 9:32
  Ness: Absolutely, it's interesting.
• 9:33
  Ness: I want to pick up on what you said in relation to you know, sharing about you and just this whole thing.
• 9:40
  Ness: I remember going back a few years when business owners were sort of told to be more vulnerable and what that kind of got interpreted as in some ways was I've got to cry on camera and share my dirty laundry and tell you all the things, and so that you're sitting there watching or listening to this feeling so uncomfortable because they're processing a story like that's really, you know, huge in their world and they're rambling and you're kind of, you're sitting there going what's the point?
• 10:12
  Ness: I don't understand how this ties together and I wonder whether that some people get that confused with that whole.
• 10:19
  Ness: Oh, I've got to be vulnerable.
• 10:20
  Ness: So therefore I've got to choose really personal stories as opposed to stories that happen in my life.
• 10:26
  Ness: Yeah, You're so true.
• 10:27
  Ness: Talk a little bit to that.
• 10:28
  Gabriella: Yes, absolutely so.
• 10:29
  Gabriella: I see this.
• 10:31
  Gabriella: I've seen it evolve over, like the last few years, where storytelling sort of being seen as, yeah, we should share more stories, and then we top that with we've got to be vulnerable, and you're exactly right.
• 10:42
  Gabriella: Some people think that translates to I've got to cry or I've got to be vulnerable, and you're exactly right.
• 10:45
  Gabriella: Some people think that translates to I've got to cry or I've got to get other people crying, and what I also see, and this really it's starting to really do my head in.
• 10:55
  Gabriella: In fact, I wrote a LinkedIn post about it today.
• 10:57
  Gabriella: Right, yeah, in some companies we go, right, we want everyone to be sharing stories and we need to be more human and more vulnerable, but don't actually give them the framework to do it and don't give them the training to do it and what not to do and what to do, and it absolutely sets them up for failure.
• 11:14
  Gabriella: So people share these stories.
• 11:16
  Gabriella: They think they're doing the right thing because it's vulnerable and they're crying, or they're getting people crying and everyone's going, oh, this is awkward and it actually does not achieve anything and that is not good storytelling.
• 11:30
  Gabriella: That is really bad storytelling and it actually feels like sort of feels a little bit like manipulation when your whole aim is, oh, I'm going to cry and if I cry and be vulnerable, people feel connected with me.
• 11:44
  Gabriella: If that's your reason for sharing stories, you're starting from a wrong place.
• 11:50
  Gabriella: I remember I read an article a couple of years ago and it was someone.
• 11:53
  Gabriella: I don't even know who it was, because I seriously do not rate them.
• 11:56
  Gabriella: They talked about the four types of stories business leaders should share, and one of the stories was a tearjerker and I just went.
• 12:05
  Gabriella: You've got to be kidding.
• 12:06
  Gabriella: If that's where you're starting.
• 12:09
  Gabriella: This is the outcome I want is a tearjerker.
• 12:12
  Gabriella: That is pure manipulation and to me, storytelling in business, done right, is one of the most authentic and respectful ways to communicate and create a connection.
• 12:25
  Nicky: Even just in what you're saying there, I feel like it almost gives people permission to not have to make people cry.
• 12:32
  Nicky: It's like the pressure is off people.
• 12:35
  Nicky: This is not the purpose.
• 12:36
  Nicky: And, of course, then what comes with that?
• 12:38
  Nicky: It's about considering what's the intention behind sharing my story and also, when we first met you, that's what really stood out to me around.
• 12:44
  Nicky: What's the intention behind sharing my story, and also, when we first met you, that's what really stood out to me around.
• 12:46
  Nicky: What's the key message that I need to get across, what's the intention behind this story, so that I can find a story and make it relevant and have that continued impact.
• 12:56
  Nicky: And the other thing, I think is you know, you mentioned that storytelling it creates a connection with the story as well as the person that's telling it.
• 13:04
  Nicky: And this piece around business owners going to business we find so often it's almost like they forget the reason or the reasons they went in.
• 13:12
  Nicky: Business can become so hard or we're stuck in the day-to-day busy trap whirlwind that we forget those reasons.
• 13:20
  Nicky: And so I wonder, by having this process of reconnecting to story, we get to reconnect to it as well.
• 13:28
  Gabriella: Yeah, absolutely, because every time you retell that story, you don't just retell a story, you relive it and you get energized by it.
• 13:36
  Gabriella: But yeah, it's, and you know, like a founder, a story.
• 13:39
  Gabriella: They should be part of your recruitment process.
• 13:42
  Gabriella: They should be part of your induction process.
• 13:43
  Gabriella: They should be spoken about externally on social media.
• 13:47
  Gabriella: It's like and if you come across good stories that can have a real impact, why would you not share them?
• 13:53
  Gabriella: Like when you're looking at it, you go okay, this is actually a really powerful way to not only engage our current employees, attract new employees, connect with customers.
• 14:04
  Gabriella: Like you sort of go okay, it'd be pretty dumb not to, wouldn't it.
• 14:08
  Nicky: Yeah, absolutely Do the Smart Growth Survey in under 60 seconds to get your hands on our Smart Growth Blueprint.
• 14:17
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• 14:35
  Nicky: All you have to do is click the link in the show notes.
• 14:44
  Ness: Could you share an example with us, Because I think that you know that was probably one of the things when I first listened to what you had to say, because my imagination goes into oh my God, I have to come up with a story, and when did that happen?
• 14:57
  Ness: But what I learnt through you is that it doesn't have to be long and it can be just the most mundane thing or just something that you think, because people go oh I can't come up with stories, I can't think of anything, because they're expecting, like the big life changing moments.
• 15:13
  Ness: But it's so much more subtle than that, isn't it?
• 15:16
  Gabriella: Yeah, absolutely.
• 15:17
  Gabriella: So a couple of things you just said.
• 15:18
  Gabriella: It doesn't have to be long, it should not be long at all.
• 15:22
  Gabriella: It's like, again, one of the I mean I see a lot of mistakes people make with storytelling.
• 15:26
  Gabriella: One most comedies they just go too long and, like you know, I will see people tell a story and I go great story.
• 15:32
  Gabriella: If it was under two minutes it would have been a brilliant story.
• 15:35
  Gabriella: So, having knowing that structure and having the discipline what to leave out and how you get your story really succinct, so that's my advice too, like you know, your story should be like a minute or 90 seconds and no longer than two minutes.
• 15:47
  Gabriella: I'll share an example Like there's so many examples I was thinking I could share with you, but I'll share one that I think is a great example of really simple.
• 15:55
  Gabriella: Like a really simple thing, because it is not.
• 15:57
  Gabriella: This is not about the life-changing moments or the climbing Mount Everest or the recovering from cancer and all that I mean.
• 16:04
  Gabriella: Yes, sometimes those stories can work, but it's the more day-to-day ones.
• 16:09
  Gabriella: So the example was I was working with a risk team and the head of risk her name was Rosemary and she said look, one of the biggest challenges I have is that when I talk about risk management, everyone looks at me and go you're the risk manager, that's your job.
• 16:21
  Gabriella: And she said it doesn't matter how many times I've told them I can't manage their risk, all I can do is help you manage their risk.
• 16:28
  Gabriella: And she's gone.
• 16:28
  Gabriella: I've given case study after case study, example after example, and nothing changes.
• 16:31
  Gabriella: She goes I have tried everything.
• 16:33
  Gabriella: She tried everything except a personal story.
• 16:35
  Gabriella: So this is the story.
• 16:37
  Gabriella: This is the story she sort of came up in one of my training workshops and you know, has used to great effect.
• 16:42
  Gabriella: And she said when I was a kid, I grew up on a farm and growing up on a farm there was all these dangers we needed to be aware of, but mum would teach us what to do.
• 16:50
  Gabriella: So we knew what to do when we came across redback spiders in the timber heap.
• 16:54
  Gabriella: We knew about all the potential traps in the dam after heavy rain and we knew what to do if we ever came across a snake in summer.
• 17:00
  Gabriella: And I remember this day mum was yelling at me to get my bike from the front gate.
• 17:03
  Gabriella: So I was running down the path and then in front of my bike was this massive copperhead snake, but I remembered everything mum taught us to do, so I played statue and I slowly walked backwards until there was enough space between me and the snake and I ran back to the house to tell mum and I'm sharing this with you because it reminds me of the role we play in risk All I can do is give you the skills, knowledge and advice.
• 17:25
  Gabriella: So when you come across your own copperhead snake, regardless of what that looks like, you will know what to do Now.
• 17:34
  Gabriella: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 17:36
  Gabriella: So, yeah, my job.
• 17:37
  Gabriella: I'm going to ask you three questions.
• 17:40
  Gabriella: Right, your listeners can play along.
• 17:43
  Gabriella: Oh yeah, does that story help you understand the role of a risk manager better and the role you play in risk?
• 17:50
  Gabriella: Absolutely.
• 17:50
  Nicky: Absolutely right.
• 17:51
  Gabriella: So it helps you understand the message right which is sort of what we're trying to do when we communicate.
• 17:56
  Gabriella: Will you remember that story?
• 17:58
  Ness: Yes, yeah, you will, you will.
• 18:01
  Gabriella: And there's a whole heap of research that shows how the brain processes emotion and logic, and you will absolutely remember it.
• 18:09
  Gabriella: You know, and if you can, just you know, thank me.
• 18:11
  Gabriella: I've potentially saved your life If you come across a snake Statue.
• 18:15
  Nicky: Walk back slowly.
• 18:16
  Nicky: You play statue.
• 18:16
  Nicky: Walk back slowly.
• 18:17
  Nicky: Go tell your mum, it helps you understand the message.
• 18:21
  Gabriella: You're going to remember it.
• 18:22
  Gabriella: You know, when the meeting's over, the presentation's finished, the conversation's ended, people will actually remember it.
• 18:28
  Gabriella: And third question if you had to, could you retell that story to someone else without losing its meaning?
• 18:36
  Gabriella: Yeah, like you wouldn't do it word for word.
• 18:38
  Gabriella: Yeah, yeah, clunky, but you wouldn't lose the gist of it.
• 18:43
  Gabriella: And so when we're communicating, I reckon some of the fundamental challenges we have is do they understand what you're saying and really understand it, and don't get convinced by nodding heads.
• 18:54
  Gabriella: That means nothing.
• 18:55
  Gabriella: Can they remember it when it's over?
• 18:58
  Gabriella: And, if they had to, can they then retell it to others?
• 19:03
  Gabriella: So if you think, in some of the times you're communicating, you might be, let's say, you're speaking to a potential client and you're speaking to two or three potential clients that then have to go back to their boss or whatever and sell in.
• 19:16
  Gabriella: If you provide a personal story that they understand, remember, retell, that's what they're going to tell and that's sort of what's sticky Stories make your information sticky.
• 19:27
  Gabriella: You still need information, but data, facts, like it's a given, but they're so not sticky.
• 19:35
  Nicky: Oh, this is expanding the conversation, just from.
• 19:38
  Nicky: You know a leader talking to their team, but you know I'm thinking sales conversations, particularly when not with the decision maker, or and you know I'm thinking sales conversations particularly when not with the decision maker, or and the other thing that I'm thinking and actually feeling and hearing when I'm listening to your story is particularly from a sales context, which is definitely my background.
• 19:55
  Nicky: We know that people don't make decisions logically.
• 19:59
  Nicky: We make decisions, emotionally and really, when we're telling stories.
• 20:02
  Nicky: When we're telling stories, when we're engaging, when we're leading whether it's sales leadership, whatever it might be we're actually wanting to get buy-in.
• 20:10
  Nicky: So there's a subconscious decision that has to be made there to go.
• 20:13
  Nicky: I've bought into that.
• 20:14
  Nicky: Yes, I get it.
• 20:15
  Nicky: And the example of rosalie rosemary yeah, rosemary, yeah she's selling the fact that don't rely on me, and she sold, sold it, I bought it.
• 20:24
  Nicky: I bought it, you bought it totally so.
• 20:27
  Gabriella: The human brain you talked about the human brain processes emotion first, and we use logic to rationalise.
• 20:32
  Gabriella: And anyone in traditional sales will tell you, people buy on emotion and they justify on logic and you know, whether you're buying a new pair of shoes, the latest iPhone or buying a house or buying into working for you, working with you, they will make an emotional decision and they will use logic to rationalise it.
• 20:55
  Gabriella: I mean, I reckon all of us have been in a situation where, like just whether we're buying for a car or looking for a real estate agent to work with, you have a meeting with a few people and they've all sort of presented pretty much the same data and you walk away going.
• 21:06
  Gabriella: I don't know what it was, but I just feel, I just feel like I could work with them, I just feel they would be a good fit.
• 21:13
  Gabriella: That is an emotional decision and you know.
• 21:17
  Gabriella: And then you'll rationalise and justify why you're spending more money because, yes, yes.
• 21:28
  Gabriella: So yeah, and that's the power of story, because stories tap into emotion without you knowing it or having control.
• 21:31
  Gabriella: And the other thing, sorry, our brain does with emotion, it stores it in the long-term part of the brain.
• 21:36
  Gabriella: So the reason you remember the snake story, it's already gone to the long-term part of your brain because it's tapped into emotion.
• 21:47
  Ness: And you know again when I say emotion.
• 21:48
  Gabriella: I'm not saying emotional.
• 21:49
  Gabriella: You've got no control.
• 21:50
  Gabriella: Everyone who's just heard that story without you knowing it and you have got zero control.
• 21:55
  Gabriella: It is already tapped into emotion.
• 21:58
  Ness: Isn't it amazing?
• 21:59
  Ness: It's funny, as you're saying that, what comes up for me is we do this in life in general, with our friends, with our family.
• 22:06
  Ness: I think it's something that just comes naturally.
• 22:08
  Ness: You're hanging out with your friends and you go.
• 22:10
  Ness: Oh, my God, let me tell you about what happened, or something like that.
• 22:13
  Ness: My son recently, one of the guys is in a share house of four people and one of the guys is moving.
• 22:18
  Ness: Yeah, so he was in charge of putting the ad in the paper and he goes.
• 22:22
  Ness: I'm a really judgy mum because they all say they're clean, they're tidy, they're quiet, you know all these kinds of things.
• 22:29
  Ness: And he said what it was about the guy that they ended up choosing to come in and move in is he talked about.
• 22:36
  Ness: He was from Scotland and he goes.
• 22:38
  Ness: I grew up in a like on the outskirts of Glasgow and I just wanted to explore the world and have a different adventure and he was just like.
• 22:46
  Ness: He stood out from everyone and they could relate because those poor boys from country Victoria moved to Queensland.
• 22:52
  Ness: So even in just like what that guy didn't know he was doing, he was creating a level of that stood out from where everybody else was the same.
• 23:02
  Gabriella: Yeah, shared a story and connection.
• 23:03
  Gabriella: So I mean stories are brilliant in job interviews too, because you're just going in, but yeah, it's creating a connection.
• 23:10
  Gabriella: I mean, you know, for those of us that's got kids, we know, when we teach our kids it's really important lessons.
• 23:16
  Gabriella: We normally will tell a story, we will tell a story of what happened, because they remember that.
• 23:20
  Gabriella: But we go into business and we go, oh, you know, oh, we can't tell the story.
• 23:30
  Gabriella: You know, let's whip out a PowerPoint with bullet points on it and it's so important, let's do a Gantt chart and then like, oh my God, please show, please tell me, show me.
• 23:38
  Gabriella: More PowerPoints said no one ever, but you know when was the last time you know you're out with your friends and it's just story, story, because it's the way you know.
• 23:46
  Gabriella: You don't suddenly stop and go.
• 23:47
  Gabriella: Okay, I've had too much stories.
• 23:49
  Gabriella: Someone please whip out that Excel spreadsheet.
• 23:53
  Ness: But, oh my God, I'm missing PowerPoint.
• 23:55
  Ness: Yeah, I'm missing PowerPoint.
• 23:57
  Gabriella: We're going to business and somewhere someone, some idiot, decided that business shouldn't be personal.
• 24:07
  Gabriella: Like you know, don't, like you know, remove emotion from business.
• 24:10
  Gabriella: Yeah, but you're dealing with people.
• 24:12
  Gabriella: Why do you think removing emotion is a good thing?
• 24:16
  Gabriella: It's just, it's.
• 24:17
  Gabriella: Yeah, it's crazy.
• 24:19
  Ness: And I think it's really interesting.
• 24:20
  Ness: You said what you shared with us was a framework that you use with your clients, and I was so impressed.
• 24:27
  Ness: I shared it with clients of ours and it was a group of maybe about a dozen leaders and it's really interesting to see when the structures followed how different it is, because at the end of the workshop they all had to get up and tell their story, which made them really nervous, but they're all very brave.
• 24:42
  Ness: They all had to get up and tell their story, which made them really nervous, but they're all very brave.
• 24:43
  Ness: And there was one person who just couldn't get her head around it being a personal story.
• 24:49
  Ness: So the story she told was I was walking out of the office one day with one of the other leaders in the room and we were talking about this thing to do with work, and then that became her story and it was just like talking about work, right.
• 25:03
  Ness: So there was she goes, goes.
• 25:05
  Ness: No, it was personal, because we're having a conversation walking out of the building.
• 25:08
  Ness: Yeah, and it was like, yeah, but I didn't buy into that whereas one of the guys told a story which was really it was short and simple, but it was to do with, you know, his kids and sailing and all this kind of stuff and everybody in the room was just like, oh wow, now he.
• 25:22
  Ness: Now he didn't get it perfect, but for what he wanted to achieve and this is the thing, obviously that's important you've got to work out what's the message I want to send, what's the outcome?
• 25:32
  Ness: You know what's this story going to be for, but I just noticed in that that without the framework, or without even linking it back to something personal, it just didn't land anywhere near as powerful.
• 25:45
  Ness: I imagine that's what you would see and why you have a framework in place right, yeah, so you talk about the framework.
• 25:50
  Gabriella: So I do teach the framework and it was like you know, people go oh, they're engineers or whatever I go, don't worry, I take them through a very logical framework and out pops the end.
• 25:59
  Gabriella: And one of the things I do is get them to practice their stories in, you know, small groups and I'm almost like I'm almost, even though I push them and encourage them, go share a non-work related story, there's always a few that just don't get it and still share a work story and because it's about them, they think it's personal and part of me is like I do want them to experience it.
• 26:20
  Gabriella: Part of me, when someone does it, I'm sort of secretly happy because everyone else hears the personal story and goes, oh my God, that was amazing.
• 26:28
  Gabriella: Oh my God, that was amazing.
• 26:29
  Gabriella: And then someone tells the sort of work one and they're going yeah, nah, that there was no connection there.
• 26:35
  Gabriella: And so they get to experience the power of sharing these non-work related stories.
• 26:40
  Gabriella: But the real skill and this is the real skill is how you connect that to your business message, because if you don't do that right, people walk away going what the hell was that about?
• 26:53
  Nicky: What purpose did I need to hear about the?
• 26:55
  Gabriella: sun's sailing.
• 26:56
  Nicky: So, oh my gosh, you have shared so much already in terms of the importance and the benefits of storytelling, and I trust that our listeners are starting to shift their thinking, and I think the other thing that's really important is you've looked at sharing some of the nuggets of gold around good storytelling.
• 27:13
  Nicky: So you mentioned the phrase good storytelling a couple of times, which you know, things like the length, making sure it's connected to the message.
• 27:21
  Nicky: It's just what you leave out is just as important as what you bring in.
• 27:24
  Nicky: Is there anything else from a lasting point of view, before I head in to the last question, which is, of course, the actionable action, but in terms of defining high level good storytelling, anything else that you would add?
• 27:37
  Gabriella: Well, look, you know the overall.
• 27:39
  Gabriella: The good story should make the purpose, and that is, you know, people understand, remember it, they connect with it.
• 27:44
  Gabriella: To me, a really great brand story can change the way people think about your product and your service.
• 27:49
  Gabriella: But yeah, we're succinct, I guess my only other little bit of advice is don't start your story with let me tell you a story, oh yeah, and don't end your story with the moral of the story.
• 28:04
  Ness: Okay, writing that down.
• 28:06
  Nicky: Excellent.
• 28:07
  Ness: Also, by the way that is harder Now.
• 28:10
  Nicky: When you go to tell a story, that kind of language can really sneak in, like we laugh at it.
• 28:14
  Nicky: It's like that's so obvious, but it can really sneak in.
• 28:17
  Nicky: And another little sort of reminder you said at the very beginning that this is a practice, it's a skill, so this is something that we can learn to get better and better at.
• 28:28
  Nicky: So, with that in mind, what is one actionable action that our listeners, and probably us as well, can go away and put into action from this incredible conversation?
• 28:38
  Gabriella: Yeah, well, I think I've provided a few tips around like how not to tell a story.
• 28:43
  Gabriella: I would say I mean I could cover so many things I'm going to do.
• 28:47
  Gabriella: On my website.
• 28:48
  Gabriella: There is a free seven day storytelling starter kit.
• 28:52
  Gabriella: So it's free.
• 28:52
  Gabriella: You, if you log in, if you subscribe to that, you get an email from me for once a day for seven days, and it's just.
• 29:00
  Gabriella: It will just give you a like, it'll be your starter kit.
• 29:03
  Gabriella: So it's not the whole skilling.
• 29:04
  Gabriella: Don't think you're going to do that and then go.
• 29:07
  Gabriella: A lot of people do this and go oh, I wish there was more.
• 29:14
  Ness: I go, yeah mate, that's called my workshop.
• 29:15
  Ness: There is more, everybody there is more, and you know, if you want, another action item I'm running a public storytelling workshop in May.
• 29:24
  Gabriella: But I think, just start educating yourself, start thinking about it.
• 29:27
  Gabriella: If you know, if you want to get the skill like I do, run training, if you want your team to have it, which is really important, because it shouldn't just be the CEO sharing stories, you know, think about how collectively, as a team, you can do it, because it not only helps them, it not only helps you, you know.
• 29:44
  Gabriella: Connect with employees, engage employees and customers, but the sharing of stories is like such an unbelievable team building activity too, because we get to know each other better.
• 29:55
  Gabriella: So there's a few things.
• 29:57
  Nicky: Yes, and there's so many great resources that you have out there.
• 30:00
  Nicky: You've got an awesome podcast that you just recently launched.
• 30:03
  Gabriella: Yay, it's called Keeping it Real with Jack and Raoul.
• 30:05
  Gabriella: I'm Raoul, in case you're wondering.
• 30:07
  Gabriella: This is like Keeping it Real with.
• 30:09
  Gabriella: Jack and Gabriel.
• 30:12
  Nicky: You also have some incredible books.
• 30:14
  Nicky: As you said, there's public workshops that you run, so we're going to make sure that we put all the links in the show notes.
• 30:19
  Nicky: Is there anywhere particularly?
• 30:20
  Nicky: We've already shared your website, but anywhere particularly, you'd like to direct people to come and check you out and check out your work.
• 30:26
  Gabriella: Look, I think it will be in the show notes.
• 30:28
  Gabriella: But yeah, check out the podcast.
• 30:30
  Gabriella: The website has the starter day kit.
• 30:32
  Gabriella: It has all my books.
• 30:33
  Gabriella: I would say you know I've written seven books not as a competition and not bad for someone who failed last year of English but the latest book I've written is Magnetic Stories and I reckon that is like, if you're going to start anywhere, I reckon this is the best one because, like, the tagline is connect with customers and engage employees with brand storytelling and you know there's just so many cool stories in there what other organizations are doing with stories and I think if you're a business owner or a business leader, that'll give you just so many ideas of where you could go with this.
• 31:04
  Nicky: Amazing See, there's so much more.
• 31:06
  Nicky: There's, always more there's always more.
• 31:08
  Ness: Well, I'm going to go and sign up for that seven-day starter kit because we're really enjoying incorporating this into our business and, particularly as we move forward, we never want to lose sight of the reason why we went into business together.
• 31:21
  Ness: So thank you so much, raelle.
• 31:24
  Ness: You have been amazing and we really appreciate you.
• 31:26
  Ness: Yep, thanks for having me Catch you next week.
• 31:29
  Ness: Bye.
• 31:30
  Nicky: Thanks for listening to today's ep.
• 31:32
  Nicky: If you loved what you heard, find us on LinkedIn and let us know what you enjoyed.
• 31:36
  Nicky: Also, don't forget to rate and review and, of course, share this episode with your biz besties.
• 31:42
  Nicky: Ness and I are obsessed with helping you break through your business and life barriers to get you to your next frontier of growth.
• 31:51
  Nicky: We bring two business minds and two perspectives into your business.
• 31:56
  Nicky: As the magician, I help connect the dots, see the possibilities and the hidden potential.
• 32:02
  Nicky: And as the architect, the dots see the possibilities and the hidden potential.
• 32:05
  Nicky: And as the architect, ness turns those possibilities into practice, implementing plans and frameworks.
• 32:08
  Nicky: Because, let's face it, every vision needs a practical pathway to success.
• 32:13
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• 32:19
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• 32:22
  Nicky: Send us an email or go old school and give us a call.
• 32:25
  Nicky: All our details are in the show notes and on our website.
• 32:29
  Nicky: Until next time, happy listening and here's to thriving in business and life.