Latest / Why Humans Lie / He Loved Me, Then He Took My Life Savings: The Surveyor's Binder

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He Loved Me, Then He Took My Life Savings: The Surveyor's Binder · Why Humans Lie

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: A land surveyor named Todd Stein walked a county road
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: culvert in Renner Township one October morning and found a
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: leather bound financial portfolio sitting on the concrete lip thirty
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: feet inside the tree line. The binder was water damaged
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: freeze s thawed at the edges, but the gold leaf
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: on the cover was still legible. Roy Andrews. Inside the
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: front pocket was a wire transfer. Authorization for the sending
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: account was clear. The amount was clear, two hundred forty
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: thousand dollars. The date read October ninth, twenty nineteen. Someone
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: had carried this into the treeline and set it down,
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: not burned it, not buried it, set it down. That
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: single act, precise and inexplicable, is what started everything. What
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: investigators would uncover in the weeks that followed was not
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: a robbery or a break in. It was something slower
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: and more deliberate. A licensed financial adviser had spent nearly
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: a year dismantling one man's sense of reality, peace by peace,
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: until that man handed over every dollar his mother had
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: left him. And Roy Andrews did not even know it
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: had happened until a detective knocked on his door. There
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: are two things that make this case worth sitting with.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: The first is the method text book, invisible and almost perfect.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: The second is the detail that broke it open. Not
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: a confession, not a tip, a surveyor a culvert, a
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: binder that should have been gone. Roy Andrews was forty
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: eight years old in the fall of two thousand nineteen.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: He taught chemistry at a high school in Renner Township,
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: a small community in Brackett County where the school parking
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: lot and the grain elevator were the two busiest addresses
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: in town. He had been there for years, long enough
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: that students from his early classes had kids of their own. Now,
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: his life, after his divorce from Sandra cho had settled
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: into something quiet and self sufficient. He rented an apartment
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: above a hardware store on Millbrook Avenue. He grated papers
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: at the kitchen table. He kept up a close friendship
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: with Greg Pauson, the shop teacher, and he called his sister,
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Brenda Mays, every Wednesday night at ten fifteen, almost without exception.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: Brenda lived in Columbus. The calls were not dramatic. They
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: were the architecture of a life that had learned to
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: be smaller than at once planned. The one rupture in
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: that life came in March of two thousand nineteen, when
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: Roy's mother, Patricia Andrews, died. Patricia left him two hundred
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: forty thousand dollars. Roy did not move quickly with it.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: According to his sister, he held it for months without
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: touching it. It still felt like her money. Brenda later
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: said he knew he needed to do something responsible with it.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: He was not the type to let a decision like
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: that slide. But he also was not the type to
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: trust easily, and he had no experience with investment accounts
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: or financial advisers. He had met Ryan Cooper the previous
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: January at a dinner hosted by Jeff Moran, the vice
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: principal at Roy's school. Cooper was thirty nine, independently licensed,
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: with an office at the Commerce Center in Brackett County
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: and roughly forty clients on his books. He drove a
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: least audie. He asked good questions, and he listened carefully
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: when people answered. At the dinner, Roy noticed him Later
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: at a Chamber of Commerce mixer. Roy crossed the room
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: and asked for his card that detail matters. Roy initiated
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: the contact Cooper had not pursued him directly. He simply
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: made himself available, and Roy walked toward him on his own.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: By February, their contact had become frequent. Phone records reconstructed
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: later would show a pattern investigators and therapist Cynthia Sawyer
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: would describe as a love bombing phase, consistent attention affirmation,
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: the impression of a deepening friendship. Cooper remembered things Roy
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: mentioned in passing. He asked about Roy's mother, He showed
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: up where Roy would be. None of it looked like manipulation.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: It looked like care. By May of twenty nineteen, Roy
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: had transferred the full two hundred forty thousand dollars into
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: a Cooper managed account. He signed the paperwork himself. Nobody
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: pressured him in any way. He could have named Brenda.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: Mays noticed something shift between August and September. The Wednesday
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: calls kept coming, but Roy sounded different. Smaller somehow, was
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: how she described it. Later, less certain. He still mentioned Cooper,
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: but not the way he had in the spring when
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: the name came up with something close to warmth. By September,
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: Roy Roy had also signed a discretionary authorization for giving
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: Cooper the legal right to execute transfers on his behalf
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: without seeking approval first. Roy did not ask a second
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: adviser to review it. He did not flag it to anyone.
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: He trusted Cooper. That trust had been constructed carefully over
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: nine months, and by September it was the only financial
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: framework Roy had. On the morning of October seventh, twenty nineteen,
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: Ryan Cooper drove to Roy Andrews's apartment on Millbrook Avenue
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: without calling ahead. Roy let him in. That was the
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: kind of relationship they had built over nine months. You
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: did not need to announce yourself. Cooper stayed long enough
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: to accept coffee four minutes maybe five while Roy was
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: in the kitchen. That small window was where everything that
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: followed was made possible. Roy's account login credentials were written
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: on a notepad in the top desk drawer. Paper accessed
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: that notepad. He left without anyone knowing what he had taken.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: Two days later, on October ninth, two hundred forty thousand
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: dollars moved out of Roy's account. The transfer was routed
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: to an entity called Harrington Capital Advisors, LLC, registered in Delaware.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: The account emptied completely within six hours from there, funds
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: passed through two intermediary accounts before converting into cryptocurrency inside
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: an exchange. At that point, the chain broke. The money
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: did not stop moving, It simply became untraceable. Roy did
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: not know any of this had happened. He found out
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: when a detective knocked on his door. But here is
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: the thing about that October ninth transfer. It was not
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: illegal on its face. Cooper had obtained a discretionary authorization
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: from Roy the previous month. That form gave Cooper the
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: legal right to execute transactions without seeking Roy's approval. First.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: Roy signed it himself. He trusted the man who handed
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: it to him. The form lived in the front pocket
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: of a leather bound financial portfolio binder. That binder was
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: found thirty feet inside a tree line, resting on the
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: lip of a culvert by a land surveyor named Todd stein.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: Stein was running a property line that week. He saw
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: the binder, photographed it, and called the county sheriff. The
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: binder was water damaged softened by Friesthal cycles. Roy Andrews's
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: name was embossed on the cover in gold leaf. Inside
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: the front pocket, the wire transfer authorization form was still
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: partially legible. The sending account number was clear. The receiving account,
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: Harrington Capital Advisers, was visible. The amount two hundred forty
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: thousand dollars the date October nine. Cooper had driven the
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: County Road outside Renner Township on the same day the
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: transfer executed. Cell tower location data confirmed the route. He stopped,
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: He walked the binder thirty feet into the trees, and
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: then he drove away. He did not destroy it. That
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: choice would matter later. Deputy Marcus Webb traced the wire
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: within forty eight hours of Steyne's call. The destination was
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: Harrington Capital Advisers LC. When Webb pulled the Delaware registration,
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: no employees appeared, no physical address, no regulatory filings. The
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: LLC had been registered in two thousand seventeen using the
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: identity of a man named Denis Harrington. Denis Harrington had
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: died in two thousand fifteen. Harrington Capital Advisers LLC existed
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: entirely to receive money and disappeared. Cooper's name appeared nowhere
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: in the paperwork. That was the first loop. A dead
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: man's identity, a shell company, a binder in the woods.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: Each one pointed inward toward a center the investigators could
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: not yet see. Detective Nora Page pulled the thread in
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: a different direction. She searched state and federal complaint databases
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: for anything connected to the financial pattern web head outlined.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: On October twenty second, she found it. A complaint filed
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: in Indiana in twenty fifteen named a financial adviser operating
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: under the name Michael Trent in Harmon County. The victim
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: was a sixty one year old widow named Beverly Nast.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: She had lost one hundred ninety thousand dollars. The complaint
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: described the same progression a trusted relationship, a discretionary authorization,
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: a transfer to an entity that dissolved before anyone could
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: follow it. Page obtained a photograph from the Indiana file.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: She showed it to Roy. He identified the man in
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: the photograph as Brian Cooper. Beverly Nast, contacted by investigators,
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: identified the same f photograph within one hour. She was
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: now living on Social Security. Cooper was arrested October twenty
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: eighth at a motel outside Columbus. He had not yet
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: left Ohio. The question that kept surfacing during the investigation
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: was not how the money moved. Webb had mapped that
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: within two days. The question was how Roy Andrews, a
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: forty eight year old chemistry teacher with a graduate degree
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: and thirty years of professional discipline, had arrived at a
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: place where a man he met at a dinner party
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: could empty his entire inheritance without his knowledge. Therapist Cynthia Sawyer,
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: who entered the case later to help document the manipulation pattern,
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: described it in phases. The first phase was access. Cooper
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: had not targeted Roy directly. Roy walked across the room
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: at the chamber mixer and asked for Cooper's card. That
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: moment looked like Roy's choice in a narrow sense. It was,
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: but Cooper had placed himself at the dinner Jeff Moran hosted.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: He had placed himself at the mixer. He had made
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: himself consistently warmly available in exactly the spaces where a
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: recently divorced man trying to rebuild a life would look
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: for connection. Roy's mother, Patricia, had died in March. The
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: inheritance arrived weeks after the funeral. Roy had not told
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: many people about it. He told Cooper. What followed between
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: February and April reconstructed from phone records, was the Fayse
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: Sawyer described as love bombing. Cooper called consistently. He remembered
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: things Roy mentioned in passing his mother's name, a book
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: he had been meaning to read, a restaurant he liked.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: He showed up at events Roy attended, He asked questions,
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: and then listened to the answers. None of this registered
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: as a strategy. It registered as friendship. By May, Roy
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: had placed two hundred forty thousand dollars into a Cooper
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: managed to count. He had not asked Greg Paulson. He
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: had not asked his sister Brenda. The trust Cooper had
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: built did not invite second opinions. That was the architecture
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: of it. The discretionary authorization in September was the final
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: structural piece. Roy signed a form that removed the last
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: procedural barrier between Cooper and the money. No counter signature required,
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: no secondary review. Roy did not have a second adviser
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: look at it. He handed over that authority because the
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: relationship had been constructed over nine months to make that
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: hand over feel like a natural extension of confidence. Brenda
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: Mays heard the result in Roy's voice before she understood
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: what had caused it. He sounded smaller, less certain. The
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: man who had called her each Wednesday at ten fifteen
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: sounded like he was choosing his words more carefully than
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: he used to. She would understand later that this was
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: the contraction phase. The relationship had served its structural purpose.
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: The warmth was pulling back. Roy was already being prepared
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: psychologically for an absence he could not yet name. Cooper
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: visited on October seventh. He left with credentials written on
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: a notepad in a desk Troy. Two days later, Roy's
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: phone showed no alerts, no flags, no notifications. The discretionary
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: authorization meant the transfer required none. Roy made coffee on
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: October ninth, the same way he made it every other morning.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: He had no idea the account had already been emptied
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: before noon. Cooper's formal confession came November fourth, three weeks
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: after his arrest. He confirmed the Harrington Capital Adviser's LC.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: He confirmed the Dennis Harrington identity. He confirmed he had
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: accessed Roy's credentials during the October seventh visit. He confirmed
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: Beverly Nast as a prior victim under the name Michael Trent.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: He offered to assist federal investigators in tracing the cryptocurrency
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: in exchange for reduced charges. The prosecutor declined picture the
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: moment Cooper walked into Roy's apartment on October seventh, he
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: had the discretionary authorization already in place. He had the
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: shell company registered, funded and ready. The visit had one
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: remaining purpose, the log in credentials on that notepad. Everything
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: else had been built across nine months. The four minutes
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: Roy spent in the kitchen were not an improvised opportunity.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: They were the conclusion of a sequence that framing collapses.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: One reading of the case, the early interpretation, the one
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: that felt intuitive, was that Cooper was an opportunist who
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: had found a vulnerable man and moved when the moment
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: allowed a lucky encounter at a dinner, an inheritance that
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: happened to arrive a form signed without full attention. But
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: Cooper had done this before. Beverly Nast in two thousand fifteen,
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: one hundred ninety thousand dollars a deceased identity recycled into
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: a Delaware LLLC two years later. The two week gap
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: between his Greer Road apartment in December two thousand eighteen
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: and the commerce center lease in January twenty nineteen. That
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: gap has no registered residential address attached to it. The
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: infrastructure for Roy's case was not assembled after the inheritance appeared.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: It was assembled while Cooper was still constructing the relationship.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: The binder left in the culvert carries its own logic.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: Cooper drove the county road with it. He stopped, He
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: walked thirty feet into the trees. He set it down
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: on the lip of the culvert and left. He did
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: not burn it. He did not wait it and sink
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: it in the creek twenty feet away. He set it down,
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: water damaged and readable, in a location a surveyor running
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: a property line would reach within days. Jeff Soto shared
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: a jail cell with Cooper after the arrest, recorded their conversations.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: In one of them, Cooper spoke about Beverly Nast. The
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: phrase that reached the trial record was this Lonely people
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: do not ask hard questions. That sentence does not explain
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: why the binder survived. Cooper knew Roy's habits, he knew
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: the terrain. He left the one document that could trace
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: the authorization back to its origin in a location designed
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: to be found. Whether that was collapse or calculation or something.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: The eleven year sentence has not fully resolved. The record
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: does not say. What the record says is that todd
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: Stein photographed it on a Tuesday morning, called the sheriff
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: before noon, and Marcus Webb had a wire transfer destination
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: before the week was out. The record closes there. Beverly
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: Nast had been sixty one years old when she filed
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: her complaint in Indiana in twenty fifteen. She had identified
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: Cooper from a photograph within one hour of being shown it.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: By the time her identification helped close the Bracket County case,
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: she was living on Social Security. The one ninety thousand
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: dollars Cooper had taken from her under the name Michael
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: Trent had not come back either. Two women, two inheritances,
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: one man man operating with different names in different states,
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: each time finding someone in transition, each time finding the
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: window between grief, between grief and stability, where a person
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: accepts comfort without demanding proof. Cynthia Sawyer, the therapist who
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: mapped the manipulation phases for investigators, described the pattern this way.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: The damage is not only financial, the dismantling of someone's judgment,
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: their trust in their own perception does not resolve when
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: the conviction is announced. Roy Andrews had spent most of
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: two thoy nineteen believing he had found something real. The
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: process of understanding that the care was engineered, that the
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: attentiveness was tactical, that the friendship was a sequence of
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: calculated phases with a transfer amount at the end is
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: a different kind of loss than the money, and it
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: does not show up in sentencing guidelines. Roy Andrews was
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: forty eight years old when his mother died. He was
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: teaching chemistry in Renner Township, living above a hardware store
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: on Milbrook Avenue, trying to figure out what to do
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: with an inheritance that still felt like it belonged to Patricia.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: He was not naive, He was not careless. He was
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: a person in grief who met someone patient enough to wait.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: There is a question this case leaves open that the
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: eleven year sentence does not answer. The binder was left
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: on the culvert, not burned, not sunk, set down in
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: a location designed to be found. Cooper knew the terrain,
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: he knew how property surveys work in that county. Whether
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: he left it as an exit, a collapse, or something else,
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: the record does not resolve, but the effect was the same.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: The one document that could trace the authorization back to
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: its source was preserved and placed where it would be discovered.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: Roy Andrews did not find out the transfer had happened
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: from his bank. He found out when a detective knocked
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: on his door. What stays is this? A chemistry teacher
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: in a small township spent the better part of a
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: year being carefully, methodically made to feel less certain of himself.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: His sister heard it in his voice before she had
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: words for it. His money was gone before he knew
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: the authorization had been used. And the man who built
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: that architecture of diminishment had a phrase for people like
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: Roy and Beverly, a phrase recorded in a jail cell
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: and entered into trial testimony. Lonely people do not ask
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: hard questions. Roy Andrews asked hard questions eventually, and so
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: did Brenda Mays, who noticed something was wrong in the
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: timbre of a Wednesday phone call, and Todd Steyn, who
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: stopped to photograph a binder on a culvert lip instead
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: of walking past it. The eleven years will run, The
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: two hundred forty thousand dollars will not come back. What
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: happened to Roy Andrews in two thousand nineteen was not
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: a lapse in judgment. It was a system built by
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: someone who had done it before and planned to do
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: it again. This show is made by Oboe Media.