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Using Play Therapy to Help Children with Anger Problems · Next Level Play Therapy: A Podcast for Play Therapy Excellence

• 0:02
  Cathi Spooner: Welcome to Next Level Play Therapy, a weekly podcast dedicated to supporting the next generation of child and adolescent therapists to provide exceptional play therapy services.
• 0:14
  Cathi Spooner: We'll explore all things play therapy to elevate your work with children and adolescents using the therapeutic powers of play.
• 0:23
  Cathi Spooner: I'll discuss practical tips and ideas so you can provide a transformative experience for your young clients and make a real difference in their lives.
• 0:34
  Cathi Spooner: So get ready to take your play therapy skills to the next level and make a lasting impact in the lives of children, adolescents, and families.
• 0:47
  Cathi Spooner: Welcome everyone.
• 0:49
  Cathi Spooner: So, um, welcome to Next Level Play Therapy and we're meeting on a different day and time than I normally do and that's because I have my amazing guest, Dr.
• 1:04
  Cathi Spooner: Fiona Zant today.
• 1:06
  Cathi Spooner: Uh, Dr.
• 1:08
  Cathi Spooner: Zant, Fiona is in Australia.
• 1:10
  Cathi Spooner: I'm here in the U.
• 1:11
  Cathi Spooner: S.
• 1:12
  Cathi Spooner: so we navigated our time zone differences a little bit different this week.
• 1:18
  Cathi Spooner: And I'm really excited about the topic that we're going to talk about today.
• 1:23
  Cathi Spooner: I feel like if you're a play therapist and you have these kids on your caseload.
• 1:29
  Cathi Spooner: If you work with children, if you work with adolescents, then the likelihood you have clients who are struggling with their big emotions of anger and emotion regulation is probably very high.
• 1:46
  Cathi Spooner: And what, uh, one of the things that we're going to do is we're going to talk about Fiona's new book that came out because it has some amazing, I think it's an amazing resource and um One of the things that I liked about the book was that it uses a neuroscience and attachment lens to really understand.
• 2:07
  Cathi Spooner: and look at anger because that's to me how you're conceptualizing anger is going to influence how you address anger.
• 2:17
  Cathi Spooner: So I'm really excited to be able to talk about this topic today.
• 2:21
  Cathi Spooner: I feel like if you're in the play therapy space, then this is a really relevant topic.
• 2:27
  Cathi Spooner: So for those of you who are joining us live, we would love to know who's here.
• 2:33
  Cathi Spooner: Go ahead and post your name in the comments.
• 2:37
  Cathi Spooner: what population you work with.
• 2:40
  Cathi Spooner: Where are you from?
• 2:41
  Cathi Spooner: Um, feel free to join the conversation and ask questions.
• 2:46
  Cathi Spooner: The only thing that we ask is that you not post questions about specific clients because it is a public format and we want to maintain privacy there.
• 2:57
  Cathi Spooner: But if you have questions or feel free to comment, Generally, for those of you who are watching on the replay, we would still love to know who has been watching, where you're from, the organization you work with.
• 3:13
  Cathi Spooner: And so feel free to post in the comments as well.
• 3:17
  Cathi Spooner: And for those of you who are listening on the podcast, feel free to comment as well.
• 3:24
  Cathi Spooner: Please feel free to leave a review.
• 3:27
  Cathi Spooner: I'd love to hear your feedback and what's been helpful.
• 3:31
  Cathi Spooner: Any suggestions?
• 3:33
  Cathi Spooner: So let's go ahead and get started for today.
• 3:37
  Cathi Spooner: So I want to welcome my guest back.
• 3:40
  Cathi Spooner: Dr Fiona Zant.
• 3:42
  Cathi Spooner: Um, Fiona and her colleague Suzanne where this is like probably a couple years ago now I just I discovered their first book, um, that they published through creative child therapy and they run some workshops there in Australia.
• 4:01
  Cathi Spooner: So if you're in Australia, then you probably want to check them out because, um, they, they run some awesome workshops.
• 4:09
  Cathi Spooner: They're covering a lot of the topics we're going to talk about here, but that's, um, that's where I first discovered them and I went kind of fangirl and I think I don't remember if I reached out to either you or Suzanne.
• 4:24
  Cathi Spooner: I don't know.
• 4:24
  Cathi Spooner: I commented and I was like so excited and then you guys agreed to be on my weekly live stream.
• 4:31
  Cathi Spooner: This is like a couple years ago.
• 4:33
  Cathi Spooner: I was so excited.
• 4:34
  Cathi Spooner: Um,
• 4:35
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Very lovely to connect, Cathi, because I had read your book, um, and really enjoyed that ahead of us meeting the first time.
• 4:42
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: So, um, it's lovely to connect across the oceans.
• 4:47
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah, I know.
• 4:48
  Cathi Spooner: That's the nice thing these days.
• 4:49
  Cathi Spooner: I feel like since the pandemic, one of the I would say silver linings out of a terrible situation was that we really did learn how to reach out Um to each other all over the world and so I feel like our play therapy community we got more connected all over.
• 5:10
  Cathi Spooner: And I love hearing what people are doing in other countries and how people are using play therapy.
• 5:16
  Cathi Spooner: So I was really excited, um, to connect with, with you guys.
• 5:22
  Cathi Spooner: Um, so Fiona is actually a clinical psych.
• 5:26
  Cathi Spooner: I'm going to read what, uh, like, because I was so impressed by all the things you do.
• 5:30
  Cathi Spooner: I don't want to miss Yeah, is a clinical psychologist and registered play therapist with over 20 years working with children and families.
• 5:41
  Cathi Spooner: She runs a successful private practice in Melbourne, Australia and is a senior psychologist at the Royal Children's Hospital.
• 5:51
  Cathi Spooner: Also works as a supervisor and lecturer and enjoys running workshops for therapists with Suzanne Barrett through their business together called Creative Child Therapy Workshops.
• 6:04
  Cathi Spooner: And Christine, um, Fiona has a new book out called Creative Ways to Help Children Regulate.
• 6:12
  Cathi Spooner: Yes, that is it regulate and manage anger.
• 6:16
  Cathi Spooner: So we're going to talk a little bit about that book.
• 6:19
  Cathi Spooner: It's a, I've read it myself.
• 6:21
  Cathi Spooner: I have a copy myself.
• 6:22
  Cathi Spooner: It's got some awesome stuff.
• 6:25
  Cathi Spooner: Um, and resources information in there.
• 6:27
  Cathi Spooner: So we'll, we'll talk a little bit more about it at the end and how to get that.
• 6:32
  Cathi Spooner: Um, so welcome Fiona.
• 6:37
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Thank you, Cathi.
• 6:38
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Thanks so much for having me.
• 6:39
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And it's really exciting to be coming in and talking about anger and regulation.
• 6:44
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Cause it's such an interesting topic, isn't it?
• 6:46
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And such an important one for us with all the children we see in our practices.
• 6:51
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 6:52
  Cathi Spooner: And I, you know, we talked a little bit before I pressed the, Go live button.
• 6:58
  Cathi Spooner: And, um, one of the things that I really, really loved about your book, um, is that you use a neuroscience and attachment lens.
• 7:09
  Cathi Spooner: And I love that kind of theoretical framework because it really does.
• 7:16
  Cathi Spooner: help play therapist and child and adolescent therapist to look at anger a different way instead of, Oh, they're just being bad.
• 7:25
  Cathi Spooner: Or, you know, I'm a bad kid.
• 7:28
  Cathi Spooner: We really want to look, look deeper to figure out what is going on with that.
• 7:35
  Cathi Spooner: And there are so many different Uh, reasons for kids to struggle with anger.
• 7:42
  Cathi Spooner: So I was curious in your work with with children and families.
• 7:48
  Cathi Spooner: I'm curious what you find to be some of the reasons that children are experiencing anger.
• 7:57
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Yeah, I think anger is an emotion that as a culture, we're often socialized to sort of shut down, want to avoid, want to stop.
• 8:07
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Um, and I think that often when kids come in and there's a referral around angry outbursts or meltdowns or temper or whatever the family calls it.
• 8:20
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: You know, one of the first things that I'm always really keen to do is to really look underneath and explore what's actually happening for that child because there can be a whole lot of different things going on for that child.
• 8:35
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And often there's anxiety underneath.
• 8:37
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Yeah, sometimes there might be shame or embarrassment, but you know, I think the real crux of what's going on underneath is typically that the child feels unsafe, so they become dysregulated and they might not objectively be unsafe.
• 8:56
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: But for them, their experience is one of feeling unsafe and overwhelmed.
• 9:02
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And, you know, I think if we can help the grown ups around them to really understand that's what's happening, then we can start to really explore that a bit more.
• 9:13
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: So, um, I felt really, um, cautious in writing about anger, um, because of some of the ways we talk about it as a society.
• 9:22
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And that's why I've called the book Creative Ways to Help Children Regulate and Manage Anger.
• 9:27
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Cause I think we're much better really to talk about regulation.
• 9:31
  Cathi Spooner: Yes.
• 9:32
  Cathi Spooner: Yes.
• 9:33
  Cathi Spooner: And I, I think one of the things that I think is really important about this topic is really, we don't want to focus on the outward.
• 9:46
  Cathi Spooner: We really want to look, if we really want to help them make the change and learn how to manage those really strong emotions that they're experiencing, we really need to look deeper and figure out what, what is activating this.
• 10:05
  Cathi Spooner: When does it get activated?
• 10:07
  Cathi Spooner: How does it get activated?
• 10:09
  Cathi Spooner: When doesn't it get activated?
• 10:11
  Cathi Spooner: Like, are there certain situations where it happens versus where it doesn't happen?
• 10:17
  Cathi Spooner: I always look at some of the exploration for anger also to identify maybe some unidentified neuro processing issues going on.
• 10:32
  Cathi Spooner: I've got the non typically developing kids.
• 10:36
  Cathi Spooner: They're of young adults, but they, you know, I, of course I didn't necessarily know it as much when they were little.
• 10:42
  Cathi Spooner: I was just like, why is everybody else's kids acting different than mine?
• 10:51
  Cathi Spooner: And one time I remember saying my oldest was at the grocery.
• 10:54
  Cathi Spooner: He was probably three.
• 10:58
  Cathi Spooner: Maybe he's probably three, but he looked five because he was bigger.
• 11:02
  Cathi Spooner: And he just had this massive meltdown, right?
• 11:05
  Cathi Spooner: Like screaming and yelling.
• 11:08
  Cathi Spooner: He we laugh about it now.
• 11:13
  Cathi Spooner: Looking at the classroom cashier lady really gets up.
• 11:17
  Cathi Spooner: Just trying to use some humor because he was like screaming like a madman.
• 11:23
  Cathi Spooner: I would come and get him.
• 11:25
  Cathi Spooner: I said that once to a young cashier and she looked at me like, what's wrong with you?
• 11:35
  Cathi Spooner: She probably doesn't have kids, but you know, but what I later realized was.
• 11:40
  Cathi Spooner: He had a lot of sensory processing.
• 11:45
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 11:46
  Cathi Spooner: He had ADHD and we did not know it at the time.
• 11:48
  Cathi Spooner: I didn't know about this thing called, this was like, he's 28 now.
• 11:54
  Cathi Spooner: This is a long time ago.
• 11:55
  Cathi Spooner: We didn't talk about these things so much back then.
• 11:59
  Cathi Spooner: Um, He had all these sensory processing things.
• 12:03
  Cathi Spooner: And once I learned about that, I was like, oh, that's what that was.
• 12:07
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 12:08
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And and
• 12:10
  Cathi Spooner: going
• 12:11
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: on, can't it?
• 12:12
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: That there's an unmet need um you know, or an unrecognized challenge um and the child is really overwhelmed or unsafe and and they're reacting and and I think that's really you know, we're talking so much more about Polyvagal theory.
• 12:29
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And I think it's wonderful if we can get parents thinking about why their child might be dysregulated as opposed to, you know, focusing on the child's anger.
• 12:39
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Because sometimes, you know, like for you in the in the cashier line, you know, it brings up all these emotions in us as grown up because you get,
• 12:50
  Cathi Spooner: you know, as parents, we get activated to Which is one of the things that I also liked about your book, where you, like a lot of what you talk about is co regulation.
• 13:01
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 13:02
  Cathi Spooner: I like to, like, one of the things I like to do with parents is teach them about emotion regulation, like their child.
• 13:11
  Cathi Spooner: Their emotion regulation circuitry is developing.
• 13:16
  Cathi Spooner: It's not developed, it's developing.
• 13:21
  Cathi Spooner: And their role as co regulator to help, I always say, like, lay down those neural pathways, set up their, their kind of neurocircuitry for success.
• 13:35
  Cathi Spooner: Even even the kids who are neurodiverse do respond to that effective co regulation from parents.
• 13:47
  Cathi Spooner: And of course, we're never going to, like, I did not do it perfectly all the time.
• 13:51
  Cathi Spooner: You know, we're, we're not aiming for that.
• 13:54
  Cathi Spooner: That's not even realistic.
• 13:56
  Cathi Spooner: And like you are saying, helping parents really understand their role as co regulators.
• 14:05
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Yeah.
• 14:06
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And I think we have to give a huge amount of space to grownups because, you know, it's really normal to get activated and heightened when your child is activated and heightened that that's really understandable.
• 14:19
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Um, and, you know, co regulation is what happens as we both kind of settle together.
• 14:25
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Um, so, you know, I think we really have to be very much working with those grownups.
• 14:32
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Because even if we're able to effectively co regulate a child in the room, even if we're seeing that child once a week, those opportunities are so much less than the grownup who's there in a whole lot of other contexts for much more of the time.
• 14:48
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And who will be the person who's there in the longer term well, we won't.
• 14:51
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: So, you know, I think if we can really give grownups that space and help them to understand that process and to reflect on what they need to keep themselves to move themselves into a bit more of the regulated space so they can regulate their child.
• 15:08
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: It's really important that we're doing that work and taking that time and we can do some of that, you know, with the grown up in the room with the child.
• 15:17
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And there might also be some times when we want to have some one on one time with a grown up to do that.
• 15:22
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: So I talk a lot about that in the book in the context of really having grownups actively involved when we're doing an activity in the room, but also, um, you know, having a bit of a model for grownups about how they can notice what's happening for them and look after themselves and start to, you know, organize their child's feelings and regulate their child by doing some things together.
• 15:49
  Cathi Spooner: Yes.
• 15:50
  Cathi Spooner: Yes, I love that.
• 15:54
  Cathi Spooner: Well, I was also thinking that maybe you could talk a little bit about some of the activities that you use maybe some of the activities you talk about in your book to help children manage emotions.
• 16:10
  Cathi Spooner: Are there any that you really like to use?
• 16:14
  Cathi Spooner: There's a lot in there.
• 16:15
  Cathi Spooner: There's a lot of good ones.
• 16:16
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: There's lots in there.
• 16:19
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Well, you know, we've been talking a bit about grown ups as well, so maybe I'll talk with you about this one and how I would use it with a child and a grown up.
• 16:27
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: So, um, this is one that I call Pit Stops and I usually just have a couple of cars, um, and in my playroom I've got a sand tray and so we can make a track for the cars in the sand tray.
• 16:42
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: But if you don't have a sand tray, you could always use a big sheet of paper and just draw a race track um, a lot of kids will have had an experience of watching race cars.
• 16:54
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And so we can talk about, you know, when the race cars come in for a pit stop and do kids know why they do that?
• 17:02
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And I think pit stops are a really good thing to talk about because cars come in for two different reasons.
• 17:09
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Cars come in because there's a scheduled stop.
• 17:13
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And those are the times where, you know, we can drive around on the racetrack and talk about, Oh, okay, you know, it's been three laps and it's time to go for a little stop.
• 17:23
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And how do you look after yourself across your day?
• 17:26
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: What are your scheduled stops?
• 17:29
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And I think this is really important, particularly for our kids who might be neurodivergent, you know, and have a lot of overwhelm across their day.
• 17:38
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: You know, it's really important that we think about what are the pit stops for them and how do we help the grownups around them to recognize that that's an important part of their day to have some regulating rhythms in there where they slow down, stop, connect, do the things that bring them joy.
• 17:55
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: It's also really important for us as grownups, isn't it?
• 17:57
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: So, you know, I often will have a grown up driving a car around the track, too, and we'll talk about what are the pit stops for you in your day?
• 18:06
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Um, and I might share that for me, having a cup of tea and just 10 minutes to sit in the afternoon at some point is a really important pit stop because we really need grownups to be thinking about how they look out for themselves across their days and their weeks and their months as well.
• 18:25
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: So that's one way to use this activity is to talk about how do we create those regulating or relaxing rhythms across the day.
• 18:34
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: The other reason that cars come in for a pit stop though is because something's gone wrong.
• 18:39
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Yeah.
• 18:40
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: So, so something happens out on the track that is a sign that we need to come in and have some care and rejuvenation.
• 18:48
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And that's a lovely way to start talking with families as well about regulation and anger because, you know, families will often come in and they'll say, Oh, you know, he goes from zero to a hundred in no time at all.
• 19:02
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Um, and often that's very much how it feels for the grown ups yeah, because the child might not be showing those signs in a typical way, especially if they are neurodivergent, or the grown up might be missing those signs, yeah, for a whole lot of different reasons.
• 19:19
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 19:22
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Absolutely.
• 19:23
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And so one of the most helpful things we can do is to start to talk to kids and grownups about what are the early signs?
• 19:31
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: What?
• 19:31
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: What are the warning signs?
• 19:33
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And then how do we need to look after the child when we see those?
• 19:38
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And so coming in for a pit stop because something has gone wrong on the track as you're driving around in the sand gives gives you an opportunity to reflect on that, doesn't it?
• 19:48
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: So it gives you a chance to hear what the grownup has noticed about early signs, see if there's anything the child might be able to share about that and increase that discussion about what needs to happen in a pit stop for you in that moment.
• 20:03
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: What are the things I can do to regulate you?
• 20:05
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Because it's different for different kids.
• 20:08
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Yeah.
• 20:08
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: So, you know, when we talk about co regulation, we're really talking about those moments of connection.
• 20:16
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Um, sometimes it's a breath or a movement of your body.
• 20:20
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Um, sometimes it's naming the feeling.
• 20:22
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And it can really vary because for some kids that can be an arm around their shoulder and, uh, Oh, I get it, sweetie.
• 20:29
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: It's been really full on today.
• 20:31
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: I can tell you're feeling really stressed.
• 20:34
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Yeah, quick squeeze.
• 20:35
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And that can be it.
• 20:36
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And for other kids, it needs to be a lot more.
• 20:39
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: So it needs to be coming away from the situation and really having a good 30 minutes of downtime doing something they love.
• 20:47
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Yeah.
• 20:47
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: So it's a good chance to talk about regulation as well as early signs.
• 20:53
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Um, and both regulation in terms of how do we structure our day and how do we make sure we've got some rhythms in there that are really supportive for both grownups and kids.
• 21:02
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: But also how do we do that in those moments where we can see we're starting to get dysregulated.
• 21:08
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Um, and I love doing this in the sand because I think the sand can be so regulating.
• 21:14
  Cathi Spooner: Oh, I know they love doing that.
• 21:16
  Cathi Spooner: And that's, that's a great idea.
• 21:19
  Cathi Spooner: I love that idea of using the metaphor of a race and race cars.
• 21:25
  Cathi Spooner: And that of the pit stop.
• 21:28
  Cathi Spooner: And there's two different reasons for pit stops.
• 21:31
  Cathi Spooner: Some of them are scheduled to make sure everything's okay.
• 21:35
  Cathi Spooner: Checking in.
• 21:36
  Cathi Spooner: And some of them are an indication that something is gone wrong and we need to address it, but not, not in a way that is focused on the child being bad.
• 21:50
  Cathi Spooner: It's more focused on the anger as an indication of, huh, something's gone wrong.
• 21:57
  Cathi Spooner: And what can we do about that?
• 21:59
  Cathi Spooner: And thinking about the, the pit stops, I mean, that, that would, having parents involved too, is a great way to have parents.
• 22:09
  Cathi Spooner: For some kids, they need at school.
• 22:11
  Cathi Spooner: Like I know I've worked with a lot of kids where school is really overwhelming or things go on, or, you know, maybe there's some teasing or bullying that's going on and they need, they need a pit stop at school.
• 22:27
  Cathi Spooner: And so working with the school counselors to have a place where they can do a pit stop and that would just pit stop.
• 22:39
  Cathi Spooner: Um, it takes a lot of the, uh, negative connotations.
• 22:46
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Yeah, I agree.
• 22:47
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And I think language is so important in the work we do, isn't it?
• 22:50
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: So when language resonates for a child and a family, you know, being able to continue that language through your conversations is really powerful and helpful for them.
• 23:02
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And you can see that dual focus, I think, of looking after the adult, helping them to develop that awareness of themselves and their emotions and their needs.
• 23:11
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And also the little person they're looking after, um, because both are so important, aren't they?
• 23:18
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah, I love that.
• 23:20
  Cathi Spooner: That's a great one.
• 23:21
  Cathi Spooner: So it's just basically you just get little, like the little miniature cars, like, yeah.
• 23:28
  Cathi Spooner: We would call them like the matchbox cars.
• 23:30
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Yeah.
• 23:32
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Yeah.
• 23:33
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Um, so, you know, I imagine most people have got cars around and, and the sand tray is lovely, but again, if you don't have that, just some big paper, um, can be a good way to do that.
• 23:44
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Um, I really like to have kids take something home as a bit of a reminder as well about what we've talked about.
• 23:50
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: So, you know, taking a photo of the cars in the sand or taking pictures.
• 23:55
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: So that you draw the track on home can be a nice way of them continuing that conversation.
• 24:01
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah, that's a great idea.
• 24:03
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah, I love that.
• 24:05
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Yeah.
• 24:08
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Yeah.
• 24:09
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: So lots of, um, lots of ideas like that in the book and activities very much to use with grownups in the room.
• 24:16
  Cathi Spooner: That's awesome.
• 24:17
  Cathi Spooner: Um, so why don't we talk a little bit about your book?
• 24:22
  Cathi Spooner: So the name of the book is called Creative Ways to Help Children Regulate and Manage Anger.
• 24:28
  Cathi Spooner: And so it's published by Jessica Kingsley Publisher.
• 24:32
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Yeah.
• 24:33
  Cathi Spooner: Um, do you want to talk about like how people can get a copy if they're interested and, um, maybe a little bit of like the structure of the book so people can kind of see what's in there?
• 24:48
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Yeah.
• 24:49
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: So, um, the book is probably the easiest way to get it on the States.
• 24:52
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: I imagine is Amazon.
• 24:54
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Um, so it's definitely on Amazon, Jessica Kingsley website as well.
• 25:00
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: It's available as Kindle or hard copy, depending on how you like to read.
• 25:07
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: In terms of structure there's certainly chapters with lots of tips and ideas about working with kids and with families.
• 25:17
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: But there's also lots of activities woven through the book, and each of those activities is written up.
• 25:24
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: So they're very much um, directive play therapy activities.
• 25:29
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: So you can really use them to help children and grown ups understand and explore a therapeutic concept around regulation and anger um, and really, you know, drawing on those therapeutic powers of play are really helping the family to express and explore and understand and communicate with each other as well.
• 25:51
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: So it's also got a chapter in there on working with the grownups.
• 25:58
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And I, and I think that, again, can be an important piece.
• 26:03
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And, you know, I know that some therapists feel really comfortable in that space and some therapists were really uncomfortable in that space.
• 26:10
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Um, so there's lots in there around how you can really engage with those grownups and really think about where they're at and what their own experiences of being regulated as a child might be.
• 26:26
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Um, what their current experience of emotions is and how they can best be engaged in the therapeutic process.
• 26:36
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And there's a bit of a model called the HOLDS model in there about how children can respond when their kids are dysregulated.
• 26:44
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: So that, that's a nice one that grown ups tend to find quite helpful as well.
• 26:50
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah, I forgot about that.
• 26:51
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah, that's really nice.
• 26:53
  Cathi Spooner: And I think, you know, one of the things that I appreciated that you, you put in the book because, um, is like how to help grownups be in the session because what I, what I find, cause I do a lot of, um, consultation and in my Play Therapy Academy program, as well as like different trainings I do.
• 27:18
  Cathi Spooner: One of the questions that always comes up is should I let the grownups in the session.
• 27:26
  Cathi Spooner: What should I do about that?
• 27:29
  Cathi Spooner: I think if you don't have a clear plan, kind of communicate with, with the parents or, you know, I love the way that you said grownups in there too, because children don't always live with their parents.
• 27:46
  Cathi Spooner: Sometimes they live with other family members.
• 27:51
  Cathi Spooner: Um, sometimes they're in foster care because they're not able to live with their parents.
• 27:57
  Cathi Spooner: So, um, but one of the things that I find is therapists are not sure what to do or how to have them in there.
• 28:06
  Cathi Spooner: And when you don't have that clear plan, when you don't have those conversations with parents about, hey, here's, here's, um, here's my idea about how to have you in the session.
• 28:22
  Cathi Spooner: Here's what you'll be doing.
• 28:23
  Cathi Spooner: Here's what I'll be doing.
• 28:26
  Cathi Spooner: What do you need for, I always like to ask, what do you need from me?
• 28:29
  Cathi Spooner: If you find everything, anything is not helpful, please make sure to let me know.
• 28:34
  Cathi Spooner: Cause we'll meet pretty regularly without your child present with that's where we'll kind of work together and strategize.
• 28:43
  Cathi Spooner: But when we have them in the sessions, it's helpful to them to know what the expectations are, because they don't know what they're supposed to be doing versus what you're doing.
• 28:55
  Cathi Spooner: And they're, you know, they're always, always going to worry about, am I doing something wrong, you know, which is natural.
• 29:04
  Cathi Spooner: I would say those things,
• 29:05
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: yeah, absolutely.
• 29:08
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And you know, it's a really, um, I often say it's the hardest job in the world parenting, isn't it?
• 29:14
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And I think we, we have to have a lot of grace for growing ups.
• 29:17
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And I think particularly the grownups who are bringing their children to therapy.
• 29:23
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: You know often they're the change makers in their families.
• 29:26
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: You know, they haven't had an experience of being regulated themselves, um, and they're often still struggling with that too.
• 29:35
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: I, and then, you know, they're trying to support their child through this.
• 29:38
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And, and I think sometimes we talk with parents about things like, um, you know, emotion coaching, and we, that we can tell them that once and they'll be able to do it.
• 29:49
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And the reality is, you know, that's a really different way for them to respond.
• 29:55
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And any time we do anything that's new and different, particularly if we're doing it in times of heightened emotion, it's incredibly difficult.
• 30:03
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And it's going to take a lot, a lot, a lot of practice.
• 30:06
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And they will, you know, get it wrong.
• 30:09
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And and they will continue to have times where they get it wrong.
• 30:12
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: You know, that that's, you know, part of what we expect with parenting that there will be have times where we have those ruptures and we get to repair those.
• 30:21
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: So I think sometimes the way we approach grownups needs to be a lot more nuanced and we need to put a lot more time into that space often.
• 30:31
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Yeah,
• 30:33
  Cathi Spooner: yeah, I totally agree, which, you know, one of the one of the reasons that I ended up to kind of it kind of gradually developed into a model.
• 30:49
  Cathi Spooner: Um, so using that Attachment Focused Family Play Therapy is the way that I look at it, which is really similar to what you are kind of encouraging people to do in your book with the activities is you're helping parents learn in real time and giving them support to do that for their child and that their child is using their parent and learning how to use their parent.
• 31:18
  Cathi Spooner: And now they have, you know, they have these activities, like you mentioned, uh, the race car and the pit stop activity.
• 31:27
  Cathi Spooner: Now they have, like you said, that language that they can use.
• 31:32
  Cathi Spooner: Um, and that will, you know, like, Oh, do you need a pit stop that language?
• 31:40
  Cathi Spooner: But now you've taught parents how to support their child in a way that's going to be effective.
• 31:48
  Cathi Spooner: You've worked with them and the child to using these play therapy activities.
• 31:56
  Cathi Spooner: And now they get to do that and it's going to be over and over and over.
• 32:00
  Cathi Spooner: It's not.
• 32:02
  Cathi Spooner: It's not one time and magically everything is fixed.
• 32:06
  Cathi Spooner: Right?
• 32:06
  Cathi Spooner: It's over and over.
• 32:08
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Yeah.
• 32:09
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And that's such an important expectation to manage with grownups, isn't it?
• 32:13
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Both how long this is likely to take to shift.
• 32:18
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: But also, you know, I think sometimes we have this really strong idea around self regulation and everyone should be able to self regulate.
• 32:26
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And I think that's really huge.
• 32:29
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And it's huge for us as grown ups.
• 32:31
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: You know, I know if I'm upset that, you know, I want to talk to someone I love and I want to hug and, you know, I think most of us regulate in relationship and that's okay.
• 32:42
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: But we sometimes we seem to have this idea that, you know, children should be able to self regulate and it's not realistic.
• 32:50
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: So, you know, I think knowing both that this will take time to improve, but also that we can expect that, you know, even older kids will still at times need support, then then that's going to be much more realistic, isn't it?
• 33:05
  Cathi Spooner: Yes, absolutely.
• 33:07
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 33:08
  Cathi Spooner: I, I totally agree.
• 33:10
  Cathi Spooner: Um, well, thank you so much for being a guest today.
• 33:17
  Cathi Spooner: Um, so for those of you who are interested, we will put, uh, comments, uh, we'll, we'll put some links in the comments for those of you who may be in Australia, being able to kind of check out some of the trainings that Um, Creative Child Therapy Workshops are doing.
• 33:39
  Cathi Spooner: Also, um, being able to get a copy of the book by, if, uh, going over to Jessica Kingsley Publishers or going on Amazon to get your copy of the book.
• 33:56
  Cathi Spooner: So we will put some of those links in In the comments below.
• 34:01
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Yeah.
• 34:02
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: Thanks so much for having me, Cathi.
• 34:03
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And, um, yeah, feel free to pop onto.
• 34:07
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: So the work, um, the website is child psychology workshops, um, in.
• 34:12
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: com.
• 34:13
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: au.
• 34:14
  Dr. Fiona Zandt: And, um, we do have some online courses as well, which, you know, I think overseas if they're interested can be a few too, but, um, so lovely to talk to you about the book and, and this topic, cause it's such an important one.
• 34:29
  Cathi Spooner: Definitely Really important topic, I think.
• 34:32
  Cathi Spooner: And I mean, we, we all have them on our caseload, so it would have some resources to be able to support our clients and their parents.
• 34:44
  Cathi Spooner: So, well, thank you.
• 34:48
  Cathi Spooner: And I will, um, so just for those of you who are, interested, I live stream every week.
• 34:56
  Cathi Spooner: I typically am on Wednesdays here in the United States.
• 35:00
  Cathi Spooner: If, if you found the information helpful, please feel free to like and share the information across your social media platforms.
• 35:10
  Cathi Spooner: Please feel free to share with your colleagues this amazing resource that, um, Fiona has written.
• 35:19
  Cathi Spooner: So I'll see you next time.
• 35:21
  Cathi Spooner: Bye for now.
• 35:29
  Cathi Spooner: Thank you for joining me on this episode of Next Level Play Therapy.
• 35:33
  Cathi Spooner: I hope you found the discussion valuable and gain new insights and ideas to support your work, helping children, adolescents, and families heal.
• 35:43
  Cathi Spooner: If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to the podcast and leave a review.
• 35:48
  Cathi Spooner: Your feedback helps to improve and reach more people who can benefit from this information.
• 35:54
  Cathi Spooner: Remember, play therapy is a powerful tool for healing and growth.
• 35:59
  Cathi Spooner: Whether you're a new play therapist or experienced, I encourage you to continue your learning journey to unlock the potential of play in your own work and relationships.
• 36:10
  Cathi Spooner: If you have any questions or topic suggestions for future episodes, I'd love to hear from you.
• 36:17
  Cathi Spooner: Connect with me on social media.
• 36:20
  Cathi Spooner: and visit my website at Renewing Hearts Play Therapy Training to stay updated on upcoming episodes, trainings, and resources.
• 36:30
  Cathi Spooner: Thank you once again for listening to Next Level Play Therapy.
• 36:33
  Cathi Spooner: Until next time, keep playing, learning, and growing.