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An unfiltered debate about "natural ability" · Math Therapy

• 0:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 0:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: We just finished interviewing Dr.
• 0:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Raj Shah and we're gonna do a little debrief David is fidgeting around with shit right now.
• 0:06
  David Kochberg: You know, just producing myself now.
• 0:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: How, what, just start sharing your thoughts.
• 0:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like what did you think?
• 0:12
  David Kochberg: My own thoughts.
• 0:12
  David Kochberg: What about, look at the stand I got going on here.
• 0:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: What about the thought of him singing John Legend, you like.
• 0:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: You said something crazy happened in his face, in his eyes, in his head region.
• 0:22
  David Kochberg: Oh yeah, we were talking about memories.
• 0:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 0:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Maybe let's even back it up because part of the thing is we were talking about memory and something I've always noticed with you, we have a very different skillset.
• 0:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: What's going on?
• 0:32
  David Kochberg: Well, we don't need these headphones at this point.
• 0:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, well I'm,
• 0:34
  David Kochberg: you can't hear yourself anyways, right.
• 0:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm monitoring myself.
• 0:37
  David Kochberg: Oh man, you're a pro.
• 0:38
  David Kochberg: Look at you.
• 0:39
  David Kochberg: I've trained you well, but Well, I don't need
• 0:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: to, I guess.
• 0:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, do
• 0:41
  David Kochberg: it.
• 0:41
  David Kochberg: Keep it, keep it going.
• 0:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: the thing is with David is I've always said David is one of the smartest people I know.
• 0:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: He might be these, oh, I can monitor
• 0:47
  David Kochberg: myself.
• 0:48
  David Kochberg: Keep going.
• 0:48
  David Kochberg: David,
• 0:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: stop.
• 0:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: I honestly don't have this much time.
• 0:50
  David Kochberg: No, no.
• 0:50
  David Kochberg: You continue complimenting me while I,
• 0:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: okay.
• 0:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: So anyways.
• 0:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, I think the reason I think David, actually, that's a whole other conversation we're not gonna get into right now, but like I do think he's brilliant using Raj's words, Dr.
• 1:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Shah's words.
• 1:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: But what's really interesting is David and I are in a band together, as you well know, I am very good at memorizing lyrics.
• 1:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I just, I can memorize them like right before a show.
• 1:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like it's just something that I can do.
• 1:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Whereas David.
• 1:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sometimes just forgets the lyrics to our own songs.
• 1:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: But David remembers everything.
• 1:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I'll bring up like any TV show or movie we watch, he'll be like, oh, that actor's like blah, blah, blah.
• 1:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: From that movie from like 19 fucking 98.
• 1:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like he remembers all this stuff.
• 1:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: And so this whole conversation with Raj made me think like, why?
• 1:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like why can you remember all of those things?
• 1:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: But you can't remember a song lyric?
• 1:40
  David Kochberg: That's a great question.
• 1:41
  David Kochberg: I don't know the answer.
• 1:43
  David Kochberg: But it's also completely different things because Yeah, but you remembering think this song lyric
• 1:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: could be so much easier.
• 1:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: 'cause you have so much contextual information.
• 1:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like you've got, like, you've got the lyrics that come before the lyrics, after things rhyme.
• 1:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like you've got music.
• 1:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like,
• 1:57
  David Kochberg: but memorizing something like a, like a song or a poem or a speech or something, like that's a, big chunk of information to commit to memory, is different than having individual memories or or storing facts in your brain.
• 2:11
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 2:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 2:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Storing, well, like if
• 2:14
  David Kochberg: I've watched a movie years ago and it left an impression on me, and I create these associations between different movies by the same director or if I know what actor has been in different movies.
• 2:28
  David Kochberg: Those things.
• 2:29
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 2:29
  David Kochberg: I'm making emotional, I guess, like kind of what we were talking about, like I'm making emotional connections because it's something that I'm interested in.
• 2:35
  David Kochberg: A band or music, like knowing all these facts.
• 2:38
  David Kochberg: What connects those facts to long-term storage in my brain is some emotional connection.
• 2:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Need to.
• 2:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Guess, but it's like, how many times have I learned who like the drummer of a particular band is?
• 2:50
  David Kochberg: Hmm.
• 2:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it's like I jump,
• 2:52
  David Kochberg: why?
• 2:52
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 2:52
  David Kochberg: Why does that not get retain memory?
• 2:54
  David Kochberg: I can, it does not
• 2:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: say in my memory.
• 2:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, but
• 2:56
  David Kochberg: this gets to my other point that I was saying, which is why we're on the mic here.
• 2:59
  David Kochberg: Which is that after Pam's podcast?
• 3:01
  David Kochberg: Well, kind of, yeah, because I, I think this whole idea, this controversial discussion about, do different people have different natural aptitudes?
• 3:14
  David Kochberg: That idea?
• 3:15
  David Kochberg: 'cause Yes, we were talking briefly after Pam's, because that was a hot take that she dropped.
• 3:22
  David Kochberg: and I mean, she did agree that there's no math gene, so I think it's like every, everyone's basically on the same page.
• 3:27
  David Kochberg: But I think the idea that some people have a natural aptitude towards different things.
• 3:35
  David Kochberg: I don't think that that in itself is a negative or limiting thing.
• 3:39
  David Kochberg: I think it's that that can then be amplified into a limiting thing where kids can get the message that they can't overcome that.
• 3:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm.
• 3:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think I just need, like, I just, I need to talk to a neuroscientist or something because I feel like
• 3:55
  David Kochberg: not just me
• 3:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: like it, because I mean, I just feel like every time I talk about this with a neuroscientist or brain-based learning specialist, the idea, well, it's not that you're wrong, but they would say, like, from what I've heard, the, I, it's, it's such a small percentage of people that actually have these like quote unquote inclinations, but I'm only, I, I don't know, I feel like, but is it, that's the, I don't know.
• 4:21
  David Kochberg: and and the other thing is I think everybody probably comes at this debate from their own personal perspective'cause how can you not?
• 4:28
  David Kochberg: So it's very subjective, but, so what I was gonna say, because you were talking with Raj about, you guys had talked about drawing and or being good at art, being good at drawing.
• 4:38
  David Kochberg: So if I think of myself and my skills, many of which you noted, thank you very much.
• 4:44
  David Kochberg: But yeah, drawing is not one of my skills.
• 4:47
  David Kochberg: Now look, I took art classes when I was a kid.
• 4:50
  David Kochberg: And I loved art, but at no point in my life, like I could draw I mean, still at this point, like an a ridiculously childish Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle cartoon.
• 5:01
  David Kochberg: His handwritten actually not very great either.
• 5:03
  David Kochberg: I'll be honest.
• 5:03
  David Kochberg: Yeah, I know.
• 5:04
  David Kochberg: Honest.
• 5:04
  David Kochberg: But so yeah, my, my ability.
• 5:07
  David Kochberg: I would never, I, I don't think that I have a natural ability for drawing at all.
• 5:13
  David Kochberg: Whereas I, I feel like I've met people who've had no training in drawing, like you, have you ever been, have you ever taken lessons or like learned how to draw?
• 5:21
  David Kochberg: 'Cause I've seen you draw or paint before and you're really good and I
• 5:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's true, but, okay.
• 5:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is it like,
• 5:28
  David Kochberg: is that something that you ever learned?
• 5:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Um, I've taken art class, I took art classes and stuff when I was younger.
• 5:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I always liked drawing.
• 5:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: I, I see, this is the thing'cause it's like I have a million questions for you then where you're like, I, at no point was I ever good at drawing.
• 5:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: I would be like, how much of your free time when you were younger did you spend drawing versus doing other things?
• 5:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Did you spend a lot of time drawing or did you only draw in art classes?
• 5:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Did you spend, like, I think my point is, but
• 5:53
  David Kochberg: did you spend a lot of time drawing?
• 5:54
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 5:55
  David Kochberg: Yeah,
• 5:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: a lot.
• 5:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: I loved drawing.
• 5:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's like what?
• 5:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like one of the things I did a lot, I drew a lot.
• 5:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: I doodled, I like, I did take, it's not like I was taking like professional art classes, but I was always actually in some sort of art thing and like I, I also, like, I had a sketchbook and like, you know, I was like this emo kid, so I was always like making all these drawings and sketches and because I had ADHD that was my way of focusing in the classroom.
• 6:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: I always drew while the teacher was talking.
• 6:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: I've always done that.
• 6:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: So like, it was something I spent a lot of time doing.
• 6:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: I would, I would also argue, I think one of the reasons this is such a hard discussion is we cannot test it.
• 6:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because we can't put two babies, like I was always like, if we could put two BA babies in, like on a desert island or like in a box, like I would never do this, with no context, then we could tell we can't parse away.
• 6:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is like what Dr.
• 6:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sarah McKay said.
• 6:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: In a way, it's like you can't really remove, uh, the way someone is from the experiences and the environments they've had.
• 6:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you can't just say, well, two, we both grew up in the same household.
• 6:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because even if you both grew up in the same household, you watched different shows, had different friends, people said different things to you, may have been treated differently based on kids get treated differently based on a perception of natural inclination.
• 7:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like a parent will be like, oh, he was counting his toes, he must, I'm gonna buy him Lego like, oh, she was doing this.
• 7:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm gonna buy, like, I'm just saying there's so many factors.
• 7:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's really hard to say, were you born with a natural inclination?
• 7:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: How could we test that?
• 7:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 7:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: They've done these studies with twins, by the way.
• 7:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 7:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: They've done these, these studies with twins who like we're raised by completely different people like this, that the other thing.
• 7:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 7:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: And they've turned out complete.
• 7:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: But again, you're not saying that.
• 7:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're saying Yes, I guess.
• 7:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well,
• 7:32
  David Kochberg: so what I'm saying is that I wonder about this conversation is once again, just like what you were discussing with Pam, when people debate this stuff, how much of it is really just coming down to semantics.
• 7:47
  David Kochberg: Where when I'm saying a kid might have a natural aptitude, or a natural inclination, I'm kind of using those words interchangeably and I'm, and my, I'm using them to say, what is it that draws a kid to something?
• 8:05
  David Kochberg: And I feel like it's a natural affinity towards something like a kid.
• 8:12
  David Kochberg: Just like you're saying, you were drawn to drawing.
• 8:16
  David Kochberg: Pun.
• 8:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I, no pun intended, but I can't say that.
• 8:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: I can't say that's why.
• 8:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like what do you mean?
• 8:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: I was drawn to,
• 8:20
  David Kochberg: you used that example of drawing and saying, when I was saying that I didn't spend that much time drawing, so that's probably why I'm not a good artist.
• 8:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: It could be one reason.
• 8:28
  David Kochberg: Yeah, one.
• 8:29
  David Kochberg: But you're saying by comparison.
• 8:30
  David Kochberg: 'cause I had noted that you are good at it, but it weren't like trained.
• 8:34
  David Kochberg: But you were saying you just spent, this is more than 10,000 hours thing, like you just spent way more time drawing.
• 8:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I wasn't allowed to watch tv.
• 8:42
  David Kochberg: Oh, well I spent a lot of time watching tv,
• 8:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: but, so this is what I mean, it's like what's a natural inclination there Is this not, I wasn't allowed to watch tv, so I had a lot more time on my hands,
• 8:50
  David Kochberg: but I've never been drawn to expressing myself through drawing, whereas.
• 8:54
  David Kochberg: Like May, maybe it's'cause I didn't discover that.
• 8:57
  David Kochberg: Maybe if we had both discovered that, oh, you could process your feelings through drawings.
• 9:01
  David Kochberg: Maybe if we did that at the same time.
• 9:02
  David Kochberg: Or maybe, maybe I
• 9:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: saw someone do it and I was really taken by that.
• 9:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like maybe I literally walked down the street during a fair and saw a caricature artist.
• 9:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like we're influenced by all these tiny, and maybe that got me interested in it.
• 9:13
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 9:14
  David Kochberg: But I feel like both things can be true at once.
• 9:16
  David Kochberg: No, but you're
• 9:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: saying natural inclination, which implies ner nature because.
• 9:20
  David Kochberg: And that's why I just don't think it's such a bad thing to say that because, but it is.
• 9:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: If you, you're but, but you and I
• 9:25
  David Kochberg: are different people.
• 9:25
  David Kochberg: Every single person is a unique snowflake and has.
• 9:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, but the difference is if you're saying someone's born that way or not, if you're not saying that, which it turned out Pam was not saying, then I can get on board.
• 9:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: If you're like, yes, we develop different inclinations based on environment and experience.
• 9:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm down with you.
• 9:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: If you're saying people are just born with different, talents and inclinations towards things, I am just not convinced.
• 9:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I think it's problematic because then we get into being like some people are born better at things than others.
• 9:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then, I don't
• 9:57
  David Kochberg: know, but that's a value judgment that that then is being placed.
• 10:00
  David Kochberg: And I feel like it is being placed in, in a, through no fault of your own, but like I feel like that is, is coming from like a defensive place because you are overall trying to combat traumas and anxieties around math that kids really for sure go through.
• 10:17
  David Kochberg: But I feel like it doesn't have to be like the pendulum swinging all the way to the other end of the extreme, because you hear, I mean obviously I don't have kids, but like lots of my friends have kids and like I often hear parents talking about their kids and can say their personality was evident from when they were a kid.
• 10:37
  David Kochberg: So that's the thing is yeah, some things about us, like you can say, I know I think of, one family, like two friends of mine who have four kids and all four kids are wildly different.
• 10:48
  David Kochberg: Right.
• 10:48
  David Kochberg: And I mean, I don't, I don't know their entire kid's life story, but like, think where theres no I what you're saying, but there's where there, uh, Two of the kids are extremely outgoing.
• 10:58
  David Kochberg: Like one kid is, uh, insanely outgoing.
• 11:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 11:01
  David Kochberg: And just like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 11:03
  David Kochberg: And then one kid is so shy and introverted.
• 11:07
  David Kochberg: Now, I don't know, maybe there's like reason, I don't know the kids that well, but like maybe there's reasons that they, maybe in relation to one another, but like through their whole lives as I've known these, these kids, like seen them like every year.
• 11:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: How old is the introverted one versus the other one?
• 11:22
  David Kochberg: Younger, a few years younger.
• 11:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, so can you, couldn't it, but how much couldn't it be that the loud uncle, but like, I can remember one takes up it, it has MA has affected the other one.
• 11:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: The other one's introverted because they're under the shadow.
• 11:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like the shadow of I anything could be.
• 11:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sure.
• 11:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: But, but that's, it's important to be like, is it an environmental thing or is it just the way they were born?
• 11:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: That is important.
• 11:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 11:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because when you talk to people this way, because what's gonna happen is these parents very well meaningly are gonna be like, oh, you were always this out.
• 11:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: You were always this introverted, whatever.
• 11:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: And people get it in their heads that then they're born this way.
• 11:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's not that they can't overcome it, but you know what, that's my, like, I was born like this, it's gonna be harder for me to be extroverted and like did like I, I know what you have wrap.
• 12:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: But that's more of
• 12:02
  David Kochberg: like a messaging thing and that's,
• 12:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: well, and we also don't know if it's true.
• 12:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: once again, I think it comes down to semantics where we are sort of arguing semantics, because I think both are true.
• 12:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think I do think like nature is a thing, you're right.
• 12:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: I do think people are born in certain ways, but I don't think that that means that they are necessarily imprisoned by those things.
• 12:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: They're not.
• 12:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I think that there are fundamental things that.
• 12:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Are part of our personalities at birth, even though we're little babies.
• 12:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: I do think that there just are ways that we are, it's just like, just like physically, like you're born with a certain face.
• 12:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Correct, correct.
• 12:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: And the face is totally different from every other face.
• 12:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I think similarly, emotionally, intellectually, you're gonna have a different brain than every single other person.
• 12:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: And we do.
• 12:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's true.
• 12:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 12:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: But so then
• 12:53
  David Kochberg: I don't, I don't think of those as a, a prison, but I think it's a starting point.
• 12:59
  David Kochberg: And then I hundred percent agree that your environment and what you're exposed to and opportunities and privileges or lack of privileges and the way and what teachers you encounter and what if you've got Scrabble Lego representation and Oh yeah.
• 13:14
  David Kochberg: Like what you see on media.
• 13:15
  David Kochberg: Like for sure you're influenced by all of this stuff.
• 13:18
  David Kochberg: And so that's why, yeah, of course.
• 13:19
  David Kochberg: I agree with your overall message and premise that it, so yeah, I see, I see why it is a message that you're fighting against the idea that kids are born a certain way and popped out of the womb, as you say, being good or not good at math.
• 13:36
  David Kochberg: So I think it is just an interesting complex,'cause it can't be proven necessarily, exactly.
• 13:42
  David Kochberg: So it's an interesting philosophical discussion, this one.
• 13:44
  David Kochberg: Which is, is it something that's so important to like, dispel or like eliminate this concept that kid could be born with a natural affinity towards something more so than another kid when, as long as what you're fighting for, ultimately, that we're building education systems and supports to teach kids that regardless of how you're born, if you want to be, let's say, quote unquote good at math, or if you want to like master math, it doesn't matter if you are more naturally inclined or not, it's like, I dunno, just with dance, like if, think of some kid, or skateboarding or something, like some kid might, there's lots of kids out there who love skateboarding and they want to be the best skateboarder in the world, but you just see them and they're like not that good.
• 14:35
  David Kochberg: Like they don't have, they don't just like hop on a skateboard and instantly are awesome and doing kick flips, whereas some other kid has
• 14:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: never tried it before and they get on, he's never tried and
• 14:46
  David Kochberg: they just jump on and they're like, oh, this is easy.
• 14:47
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 14:47
  David Kochberg: But then I'd be like,
• 14:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: what other experiences do they have?
• 14:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do they play other sports?
• 14:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like what?
• 14:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, yeah.
• 14:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Look, I get what you're saying and I think maybe at the end of it is because we don't fully know, although I'm gonna do a call out for if anyone has some thoughts about this, to please send them in regardless.
• 15:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's the messaging around it that I think we can both agree on is the bigger issue.
• 15:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like regardless, the messaging around it should be like, okay, cool.
• 15:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Maybe there's some differences in the way, you know, our affinities when we're born, but they're so minor, this is what I like to say, nature for the most part, the influence of nature on our ability and aptitude is so minor compared to what nurture can do, and I think that's the more important thing is like, like you said, when you read a Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell, it's the 10,000 hours that vetoes any nurture.
• 15:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Not in every case.
• 15:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, and I agree there are, there are, you know, there's obviously disability and some extreme differences, but like in many cases, so we do have to wrap this up because you have another interview.
• 15:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, um, oh yeah.
• 15:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, four minutes.
• 15:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 15:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I wanna say this has been an excellent debate with you, my producer, and I'm very curious what people think.
• 15:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, if there's someone you know that I can interview about this that would be like an expert on this, let me know if you have.
• 15:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thoughts about this yourself.
• 15:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: If you just wanna share your opinion or evidence or anecdotal evidence, send them in because I'd like to continue this discussion.
• 16:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think it's a very important one, and we'd like to hear from you.
• 16:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: You can text the podcast by going to the description of this episode at maththerapypodcast.com.
• 16:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's a lie.
• 16:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yes, it's not.
• 16:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, it's not.
• 16:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: You can go there.
• 16:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: You can text the podcast.
• 16:18
  David Kochberg: You can text the podcast in the description of this episode in your podcast player.
• 16:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Great.
• 16:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Go do that.
• 16:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, any podcast player, it'll be there.
• 16:25
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 16:26
  David Kochberg: Okay.
• 16:26
  David Kochberg: It's in the, the, like when we say show notes, like it's in the description of the episode,
• 16:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: it's in the description of the episode.
• 16:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: You can also email me, Vanessa, at themathguru.ca with a voice note.
• 16:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: If you're comfortable with us playing it on a future episode of the podcast, that'd be great.
• 16:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: You can DM me on Instagram@themathguru.
• 16:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Let us know what you think.
• 16:41
  David Kochberg: So many ways to get in touch.
• 16:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: How, what do you think of our discussion here?
• 16:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: How much of our ability and affinity comes from nature versus nurture.
• 16:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: What do you think?
• 16:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Does it even matter?
• 16:51
  David Kochberg: Yeah, the, the last thing I'll say, just'cause I wanted to, okay.
• 16:54
  David Kochberg: Just'cause I want the last word, now all of a sudden I got a mic, so, you know, the path feel of power is,'cause I also feel like, I can't think of examples, but like there's lots of other times in your work where you're saying like, you're trying to tell students that what they see isn't the truth or something.
• 17:10
  David Kochberg: Where it's like this, like students might be complaining about something in the, in the class and you're like, no, no, no, no, this is the way, or like, this is, this is important because of this or something, and then they're like, but this is' what I'm observing.
• 17:23
  David Kochberg: I can't, it would be better if I had an example, but I don't at the moment.
• 17:26
  David Kochberg: We're, we're, but I, I get what you're saying.
• 17:28
  David Kochberg: My point is like,
• 17:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: we don't wanna gaslight
• 17:29
  David Kochberg: a kid might feel.
• 17:31
  David Kochberg: They're in class, like a kid just might feel in the moment, like, my friend is getting this stuff way faster than me, have a natural ability.
• 17:41
  David Kochberg: And you could like try to be like, well, no, brain based science says this and that, but to them they're just like.
• 17:47
  David Kochberg: It's hard for me.
• 17:48
  David Kochberg: It's not hard for them.
• 17:50
  David Kochberg: And I mean, I've even been as brilliant as I am.
• 17:52
  David Kochberg: Like, I mean, I've talked where people can listen to the other class.
• 17:55
  David Kochberg: I mean, yeah, we can get this another time, but like I remember in, in university there were times in engineering class, what, not engineering class, but like in calculus first year I had no idea what was going on.
• 18:04
  David Kochberg: And another friend of mine just got it so quickly and to me I'm like, yeah, I'm a smart guy, but this guy, he just gets it effortlessly.
• 18:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: But would it have helped you for someone to have been like, oh, proven fact.
• 18:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: He has more natural ability than you?
• 18:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, no.
• 18:18
  David Kochberg: My point is that like I think he had a more natural ability to just get that concept, but that didn't mean that I couldn't get it.
• 18:25
  David Kochberg: It just mean I needed to do a little bit more work to get it.
• 18:28
  David Kochberg: And so I think the point is for the point I'm trying to make ultimately is that, that for a kid, I don't think it does them any service to be like, we have proven there's no difference fundamentally in people's natural ability because it defies what they kind of observe their experience.
• 18:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: I get it.
• 18:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: You think it helps them to be like, okay, well at least there's a reason why I'm not getting this
• 18:47
  David Kochberg: No, no, not necessarily.
• 18:48
  David Kochberg: I'm just, I think the focus should be more on like, even if there is slight difference in people's natural ability or natural inclination, it doesn't matter that much because everyone can learn the same stuff.
• 19:02
  David Kochberg: It just might take different paths for you to get there instead of focusing on like, we must dispel this myth that some people have more of a natural ability, I think.
• 19:12
  David Kochberg: I think that that's more important and also more in line with like your overall work.
• 19:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm gonna have to really think about this.
• 19:19
  David Kochberg: Yeah, no problem.
• 19:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Cause I can see what you're'cause.
• 19:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: As I told Raj during our episode, one of my amazing superpowers, one of my amazing superpowers is I can always see both sides.
• 19:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I can see both sides.
• 19:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm gonna have to sit with this.
• 19:28
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 19:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Goodbye everyone.
• 19:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: We have an interview in two seconds.
• 19:30
  David Kochberg: Let's wrap it.
• 19:31
  David Kochberg: Bye.
• 19:31
  David Kochberg: Goodbye.