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The U.S. 5th Circuit Hears Case on Ten Commandments · Conversations: Special Guests with Preston Scott

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Thirty five minutes past the hour. You know, over twenty
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  Speaker 1: three plus years of doing this radio program, we forged
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  Speaker 1: some great friends, people that we turn to better understand
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  Speaker 1: some of the most important issues of the day. And
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  Speaker 1: one of those is Matt Staver. Matt is senior pastor,
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  Speaker 1: founder and chairman of Liberty Council. He joined us this
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  Speaker 1: morning once again. Matt, good morning, how are you.
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  Speaker 2: Good morning. Good to be with you, Preston. Always a
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  Speaker 2: pleasure to be on your show.
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  Speaker 1: I really appreciate the time Matt. I got a notice
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  Speaker 1: from Liberty Council about what happened at the US Fifth
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  Speaker 1: Circuit Court of Appeals a couple days ago. Tell us
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  Speaker 1: first to set the stage Roke versus Brumley. I'm guessing
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  Speaker 1: is the name of the case? Tell us about the case,
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  Speaker 1: What are the details?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's actually a case actually that involves Texas and Louisiana.
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  Speaker 2: So Texas and Louisia in and passed similar laws. They
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  Speaker 2: passed that after twenty twenty two, when the Supreme Court
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  Speaker 2: of the United States overruled a nineteen seventy one decision
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  Speaker 2: called Lemon versus Kirtsmen that had wreaked havoc regarding the
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  Speaker 2: Establishment clause the establishment of religion issues. So they passed
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  Speaker 2: the law that said that you would have a stand
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  Speaker 2: of the Ten Commandments in the public schools, but that
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  Speaker 2: the Ten Commandments would have to be donated. There was
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  Speaker 2: not going to be any state expenditures. So both of
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  Speaker 2: those states passed those laws. Both of them got challenged.
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  Speaker 2: In Texas, a lower district court found that they still
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  Speaker 2: violated the First Amendment. There was a lawsuit on behalf
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  Speaker 2: of several of the school districts, or targeting several of
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  Speaker 2: the school districts, not the entire state, but several where
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  Speaker 2: the plaintiffs were. And then in Louisiana there was a
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  Speaker 2: Court of Appeals the same Fifth Circuit, but only three
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  Speaker 2: judges at that particular time, that ruled that law also
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  Speaker 2: violated the First Amendment. The problem with both of those rulings,
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  Speaker 2: the Court of Appeals ruling from the Fifth Circuit regarding
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  Speaker 2: Louisiana and the lower court ruling in Texas regarding very
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  Speaker 2: similar situations, is they act as though nothing happened in
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  Speaker 2: twenty twenty two. And that's why now you have seventeen
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  Speaker 2: judges the entire Fifth Circuit Court panel of seventeen judges
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  Speaker 2: rehearing the case. It'll affect Texas directly and Louisiana directly,
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  Speaker 2: but the implications are going to be national. And the
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  Speaker 2: argument by the other side of the ACU and those
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  Speaker 2: that were representing they plaintiffs against the Ten Commandments, they
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  Speaker 2: basically pretend that nothing happened. That Yes, Lemon versus Courtsman
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  Speaker 2: was overturned. That was a nineteen seventy one decision, and
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  Speaker 2: it was overturned in a case that we had, and
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  Speaker 2: also another case in twenty twenty two, our case Shirtlet
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  Speaker 2: versus City of Boston. The lower court used this Lemon
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  Speaker 2: test to censor religious viewpoints where every other viewpoint was permissible.
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  Speaker 2: Nine justices unanimously ruled in our favor, rejecting that. Then
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  Speaker 2: that case was used a few weeks later in the
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  Speaker 2: Coach Kennedy case, where they also used the Lemon test
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  Speaker 2: and said, well, if he kneels down and the reason
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  Speaker 2: he's doing it is for secular thought, that's okay. But
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  Speaker 2: if the reason he's doing it is for prayer, that
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  Speaker 2: violates the Lemon establishment clause test. The Supreme Court finally
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  Speaker 2: buried the Lemon test and overruled it seventy on one
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  Speaker 2: case fifty one years in existence, so it's gone completely
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  Speaker 2: changes the landscape. The AHOLU argued, well, wait a minute,
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  Speaker 2: there's this nineteen eighty case. Well that came after Lemon, right,
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  Speaker 2: seventy one was Lemon eighty was this other case out
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  Speaker 2: of Kentucky and it said that you couldn't post the
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  Speaker 2: Ten Commandments on the wall. Well, you know what that
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  Speaker 2: case relies upon Lemon. With Lemon gone, all that president
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  Speaker 2: is gone. So what the Supreme Court said when they
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  Speaker 2: overruled the Lemon test in twenty twenty two is we're
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  Speaker 2: no longer going to have this judge made fictitious test.
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  Speaker 2: You have to look at the First Amendment Establishment clause
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  Speaker 2: according to its historical purpose and understanding what was it
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  Speaker 2: designed to do, not some fictitious after the fact, judge
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  Speaker 2: made rule that makes no sense at all. And so
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  Speaker 2: when you look at it, the Ten Commandments, the Ten
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  Speaker 2: Commandments predated the First Amendment in our government. In fact,
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  Speaker 2: the United States Supreme Court, both inside and outside of
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  Speaker 2: the building, has about fifty separate displays of the Ten Commandments.
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  Speaker 2: The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals that governs the western
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  Speaker 2: part of the United States in its seal, which is
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  Speaker 2: over one hundred years old, in its actual seal of
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  Speaker 2: the Court has the Ten Commandments. Why because the Ten
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  Speaker 2: Commandments are the foundation of our Western jurisprudence, our law.
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  Speaker 2: We have a lot of our laws from the Ten Commandments.
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  Speaker 2: That's why it's natural to be posted on public property,
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  Speaker 2: within courts, on city and county property, and certainly within
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  Speaker 2: classrooms as well.
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  Speaker 1: Let me play an ad hoc member of your team,
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  Speaker 1: and I'm arguing this before whatever presiding group of judges
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  Speaker 1: or court, and I point out that in God We
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  Speaker 1: Trust appeared on a coin for the United States in
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  Speaker 1: eighteen sixty four. I think it was added to paper
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  Speaker 1: currency in fifty seven. And I don't know of one
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  Speaker 1: case where those words forced anybody to become a Christian.
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  Speaker 1: And I would argue that acknowledging God does not establish
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  Speaker 1: a religion. It acknowledges God. It acknowledges the foundation of
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  Speaker 1: this nation in the three branches of government. Am I wrong?
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  Speaker 2: No, Preston, You're absolutely correct. And so what the Lemon
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  Speaker 2: test did back in the nineteen seventies, understand what happened
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  Speaker 2: in the seventies decade, the United States Supreme Court. What
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  Speaker 2: happened in the seventies decade in the United States Supreme
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  Speaker 2: Court was a very liberal, kind of progressive activist situation.
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  Speaker 2: That's when Lemon came out. Because they didn't like Christianity.
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  Speaker 2: So let's devise a test to kind of wipe it
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  Speaker 2: out and let judges basically do an end run around
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  Speaker 2: the First Amendment, which you know, the First Amendment would
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  Speaker 2: not interfere unless someone's being coerced into adopting a particular
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  Speaker 2: faith of religion or supporting a particular religion, but just
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  Speaker 2: acknowledgments of God, Well, that could happen all the time.
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  Speaker 2: In fact, we've done that. So let's create a Lemon
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  Speaker 2: test nineteen seventy one. Well, we don't like life either,
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  Speaker 2: so let's create Row versus Weight nineteen seventy three. And
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  Speaker 2: they did that to two other major cases. All of
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  Speaker 2: those there's four major cases from the nineteen seventies, from
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  Speaker 2: twenty twenty two to twenty twenty three, all four of
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  Speaker 2: those have been overridden. The one we're talking about today
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  Speaker 2: is Lemon. So you know, the judge made rule, took
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  Speaker 2: it way beyond what the First Amendment was designed to do.
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  Speaker 2: And so when you're talking about the Ten Commandments. That
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  Speaker 2: doesn't force anybody to be a Christian or a Jew, nope,
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  Speaker 2: to believe in God or not believe in God. It
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  Speaker 2: just simply acknowledges God. It doesn't force you to support
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  Speaker 2: a religion. It doesn't ostracize. It doesn't change your math grade,
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  Speaker 2: it doesn't change your science grade, or your literature, your English.
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  Speaker 2: It's there because you know what laws like stealing, theft, murder,
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  Speaker 2: a lot of these laws, they all come from and
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  Speaker 2: there's no question about it. The Ten Commandments, Well, every
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  Speaker 2: law legislies adopted it.
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  Speaker 1: Matt. Every law legislates morality. I always laugh at people
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  Speaker 1: and say, you can't legislate morality. That's what every law does.
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  Speaker 2: Every law is an expression of morality. The only question
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  Speaker 2: is is it a good morality or immorality?
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  Speaker 1: Exactly.
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  Speaker 2: It always has some kind of principle that it's putting
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  Speaker 2: into power, putting into practice, and enforcing it. And the
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  Speaker 2: Ten Commandments have been exceptionally critical in the formation of
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  Speaker 2: the entire Western system and the Western legal tradition that
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  Speaker 2: predates the United States, and that's why you see it
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  Speaker 2: all over the country. That's why if you go through Washington,
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  Speaker 2: d C. We actually have a pictorial book that we're
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  Speaker 2: preparing that looks at the Ten Commandments just in Washington,
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  Speaker 2: d C. It's all over the place. And why And
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  Speaker 2: it's not just in DC, it's everywhere. Why Why? Because
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  Speaker 2: it is a symbol of the rule of law. In fact,
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  Speaker 2: if you go on say a Google research right now,
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  Speaker 2: and you want to do research papers, type in the
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  Speaker 2: Ten Commandments of you know, I quote, you know what,
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  Speaker 2: You're going to find thousands, tens of thousands of articles,
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  Speaker 2: the Ten Commandments of gardening, the Ten Commandments of motorcycle mechanics.
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  Speaker 2: Why Why Because the Ten Commandments has historically been understood
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  Speaker 2: as this is the rule of law. And that's why
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  Speaker 2: it's very appropriate to have this post it.
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  Speaker 1: Matt, we got about a minute left, real quickly here,
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  Speaker 1: What in your your opinion is going to be? What
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  Speaker 1: do you sense will be the outcome? They heard oral
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  Speaker 1: arguments the full Court a couple days ago.
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  Speaker 2: So what do you think I think that they'll either
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  Speaker 2: win there or certainly at the United States Supreme Court. Look,
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  Speaker 2: we're at a new day, judges, and people need to
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  Speaker 2: get used to it. Lemon is gone. We're back to
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  Speaker 2: more in originalism of the First Amendment, not this judge.
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  Speaker 2: Hostility toward religion, particularly Christianity, that is over. That was
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  Speaker 2: a reign of terror, if you will, for fifty one years.
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  Speaker 2: That ended in twenty twenty two. It's a new day,
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  Speaker 2: so I think we're going to have a good decision.
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  Speaker 1: Matt, thanks as always for your time. We'll talk again soon.
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  Speaker 2: Thanks my pleasure.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: Matt Staver with Liberty Counsel. They're doing the heavy lifting
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  Speaker 1: and supporting others doing the same. Here in the Morning
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  Speaker 1: Show with Preston Scott,