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Kenneth Noelmans - De wind zal me dragen · De Leeslampjes

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Hello everyone, I'm Arno Olieslagers and I think that our
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: authors in the Dutch-speaking language area are not getting much attention.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Especially the writers who are not in a big publishing house.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: That's why I let every episode shine the light on
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: another guest, because no one likes to be in the dark,
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: we all know that in the meantime. In this episode,
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Kenneth Noelmans. On his 17th, he left the house and
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: chose the wrong path. He ended up in a world
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: full of cowboy stories and adventure, but also criminality and addiction.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: A journey, completely on foot, to Santiago de Compostela brought
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: him back on the right path.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: And what a path. He has with.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Foodies and lodgies two thriving businesses in Tongeren, was nominated
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: for Entrepreneur of the Year and wrote his turbulent life
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: down in the book De Wind Zal Mij Dragen. Welcome
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: to De Leeslampjes. We're going to talk about it all.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: But first, Kenneth, there is a book, or rather a
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: certain writer, who has given you permission to write your book,
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: or who has let you take a different path.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely.
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: For everyone who knows me very clearly, Paulo Coelho. That's
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: a man who started me with the book The Alchemist.
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: I didn't know Paulo Coelho at first, and then I
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: discovered the book The Alchemist. And that book really touched me.
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: That was really a book that is... And the crazy
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: thing is, it's such a simple, a very simple book,
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: and a very easy book, not a big book, not
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: a small book either. And it's about a herder who
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: is looking for his treasure. But there are such beautiful
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: wisdoms in it, and it's told very beautifully, not only
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: for me personally, because it's been sold 56 million times,
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: I think. That's a lot. So there are quite a
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: few people who found their way back there. But that
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: book really touched me. And I discovered that book when
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: I was at the bottom of my life. So after
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: reading that book, I had this feeling that this book
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: brought me. This is what I want more. And then
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: I went looking for more books from him. And I
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: went to the library, but I didn't have an identity
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: card anymore. So with the identity card or the passport
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: of a friend, I went looking for everything that was there.
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: From Paulo Coelho. And coincidentally, the second book I read
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: about him was The Pilgrims Walk to Santiago. Now, that's
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: a very different book. I've read it several times and
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: sometimes I think it's very good, sometimes I think it's
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: a very vague book. It's a very strange book, very special.
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: Very philosophical, maybe?
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: No, there's witchcraft in it, it's a.
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: Very different book. But the last time I read it,
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: I thought it was very good, so it really changes.
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: But that book has opened the door to a different life.
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: That book has given me the strength to step away
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: from my old existence, to actually step away from my
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: old existence. So a few weeks after reading that book,
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: I myself went to Santiago de Compostela. Because at that
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: time I was homeless, homeless is a big word, but
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: I slept with other users at home sometimes. On the park,
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: in the park, sometimes at a friend's house. So I
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: wandered around a bit. And that's actually where it all started.
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: That was the turning point in my life.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: And that's also what the book is about.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: It's an autobiography from your difficult years to.
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  Speaker 3: My book? Yes, your book. My book is really an
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: autobiographical book. And it's indeed about... It starts in my youth,
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: which I'll talk about very shortly, very quickly, where it
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: went wrong and how it went wrong and how addictive
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: I am and how I embraced it or how I
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: let myself go completely into it until I was at
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  Speaker 3: the bottom. And that book then brought me the light,
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: let's just say, showed me that there is still another possibility.
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: There is a way out and Santiago de Compostela sounded
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: like a way out. That was a goal, a achievable goal.
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  Speaker 3: I can step towards that, that is already a whole task.
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  Speaker 3: So that cathedral, that end point, becomes my goal. And yes, drugs,
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  Speaker 3: you're not going to take a backpack full of drugs,
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: of course.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: You said you were really addicted and that started with
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: cigarettes at a young age?
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  Speaker 2: How did that start? How did that start? It started with...
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: Did I smoke cigarettes?
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: Yes, I think so. I don't really know that now.
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  Speaker 3: I remember very well the first time I smoked a joint.
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: And that was experimenting with... It's often said, wrong friends,
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: but we weren't wrong friends. guys who also wanted to
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: experiment and we were a bit unaccompanied and wanted to
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  Speaker 3: be free and wanted to do something crazy and that
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  Speaker 3: started with a joint with some friends in the park
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: and the first joint wasn't even great but yeah okay,
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: that co-existence and then after a while there were a
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: few more joints and then you go on stage.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: It's that group feeling that made you do more and more?
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  Speaker 3: The biggest trigger for me has always been The normal
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: life really shocked me. When I look at my parents,
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  Speaker 3: my uncles and aunts, when I look at the people
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  Speaker 3: around me get up, drink some water, go to work,
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  Speaker 3: come home, cook, look at home or family and then
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: go to sleep and get up again in the morning
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  Speaker 3: and do the same thing and go on vacation once
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: a year to France or Spain. I was like, this
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: is really not what I want. And I looked at
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: those gangster movies and I listened to Tupac and Biggie
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: and that kind of rap music. And I was like,
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: that's a life that looks cool. And also the idea
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: that alcohol is so completely accepted and people are addicted
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: to antidepressants and sleeping pills and think of a joint,
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: that's not allowed. And so it was more of a
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: search or a call for freedom, of I do what
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: I want. And I don't want to be imprisoned in
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: the spirit of society. And that search for freedom has
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: become a prison somewhere.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: Yes, because I read it and I got tired of
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: what you've all done. And I said, but that's not possible.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: And I was sometimes even thinking about how many months
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: or weeks were in between, between one and the other job.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: I've had a lot of jobs.
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  Speaker 3: I've lived in a lot of places.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: You started with the fitness you took over. Yes.
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  Speaker 2: That was when you were 19 years old.
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  Speaker 3: No, first I went to the army. Then I worked
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: in a library. Then I took over a fitness center
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: and then it all got a little worse. There I
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: was in the back of Luik and that was completely
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: what I thought was great. All heavy men and a
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: very heavy environment as well. And there was dealing and
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: healing and that was dead normal. Your boundaries will fade
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: if you sit in there for a while.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: Yes, you will start to see it as normal.
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  Speaker 2: You will start to.
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: See it as normal, yes. And yes, and then there
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: is still a whole In a whole race of things, yes. So,
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: it was something, yes.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, they are all very well described, and you have
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: been very open.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, but I think I have remained good in the book.
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, cool.
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: I am not, I am not going to go very
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: deep into detail, because I would really like to be
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: able to describe very visual scenes, and then there must be,
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: I have seen people die, I have fought heavily, how
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: the robberies happened, how the healing happened. So I didn't...
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: I kept it well. Because I also wanted to tell
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: quite a lot on.
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: Not so many pages.
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: So yes, that's... Yes, but no, it's not easy to
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: go back to that time and to come out with that.
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: Because it's not, if I may say so.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: It's... In the end it becomes a positive story, but
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: in the beginning you think, how is.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: That ever going to work out?
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: But that is somewhere a weakness, I think, and somewhere
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: also a strength. I have very little feeling of shame.
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: I also have very little filter. So personally, it doesn't
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: really work for me. I don't have the feeling that
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  Speaker 3: I'm carrying a backpack with me. That backpack is empty,
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: it's very light. People are allowed to know everything about me, literally.
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: If you ask me what you want, I will answer
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  Speaker 3: you honestly. I did have some doubts about my surroundings,
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: because my daughter and my exes are coming. But I
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: asked my daughter for approval, and after my daughter's victory,
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: I thought, okay, for the rest, it will never be
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: good for everyone, so I'll just do it. But now,
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: as people, we're going to look at it differently.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: Because you've effectively taken their names as well, or you've.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: Got their names in a book.
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: It's their names. So the names of the people.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: Yes, of the relationships, I would say.
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: That's their names. Yes, yes, yes. But also the friends
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: are their names. Ah, okay. So only the names that
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  Speaker 3: are real, that are in it, is the name of
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: my daughter.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: Names of my parents, my brothers, my sisters. And for
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: the rest, there are no real names. I don't know
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  Speaker 3: if that's legal.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: Yes, I think so too.
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  Speaker 3: I don't know if you.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: Would have come to the problems.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: Your first name, I don't think that would have been
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  Speaker 1: so bad.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: No, you better not do it, I think.
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  Speaker 3: No, so I haven't done that either. I'm still happy
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: that it's out. It mainly got me in the way
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: because I've been dreaming of writing a book for many years.
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: And that's another book, that's not the book. But that's
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: a spiritual novel, adventure story somewhere in between. It's actually
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: based on my two favorite books, The Alchemist and Into
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: the Wild. And there a bit of a combination of
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: a boy who is looking for the big questions of
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: life and who is going to lose himself in the
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: world and meets a lot of inspiring and wise people
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: with those life lessons. And while I wanted to write
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: that book for 50 years or so, it came every time.
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: Parts of my life I mixed in that story. And
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: I absolutely didn't want that. And that's why I'm like, okay,
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: I'm going to get this out first.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: First tell your story.
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: Because it's very strange, I think, as an unknown writer,
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: to start with an autobiography. People usually do that at
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: the end of their lives.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: Yes, of course, I think there are a lot of
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: people who, when they are 80 or 90, don't do
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: the things they have done or the things they did when.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: They were in their forties.
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: But you're going to ask an autobiography of someone not known,
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: who's going to read that, outside of your environment. And
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: that was not the intention for the book to be
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: placed in my environment. So not that my aunt and
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: my uncle and my nephews and my nephews had to
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: know what was going on. The intention was to... The
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: dream is to let it travel, to put the book.
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: Take it with you.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: As many people as possible.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: And what exactly do you want to.
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: Achieve with it? Do you want to inspire people? No, no.
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: I hope, and I am, as you can read in
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: the book, an unrealistic dreamer, who in some way knows
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: how to make many of those dreams come true. And
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: becoming a writer was one of those dreams. And that's
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: why the book is there. And now that it's there,
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: I hope that that's open new doors for me. Where
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: those doors lead to, I don't dare to say. And
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: I also have the feeling that it will work. That
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: this book will open new paths for me to places unknown.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: You are someone who always comes back on his feet, ultimately.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: That's how I have the impression when you see what
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: you have done.
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: Yes, in the end I do. And I am a
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: super happy person. I am really a very, very, very
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: happy person. So if that book would become a bestseller
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: worldwide tomorrow, that would make me I'm very happy, but
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: I'm at a peak of happiness. And realizing that I
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: still hope to achieve a lot of nice peak moments,
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: but in terms of happiness, I'm there. I am where
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: I want to be. I have the feeling where I
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: want to be. Yes, I'm happy. So my aim is
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: to make my dreams come true. And that book was
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: one of those dreams.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: You have a new dream. I have a new challenge.
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: But I'm going to take a break here. It takes
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: a while to write a book like this.
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: How long have you been doing this? It was a
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: terrible process, I think. It was a whole search.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: Writing the book took maybe 20 years, because I didn't
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: want to succeed, because I was too lazy, or because
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: I didn't.
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: Find the motivation. But I started very often. And then
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: I would look at it on an empty screen, or
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: with 20 sentences, and then doubt, and then think, it's
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: not there today. And then, the moment I decided, okay,
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: now I'm really going to write it, that was actually
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: last year in July, and in a small month, or
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: take a good four weeks, it was out. It was
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: a book.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: Okay, that's fast.
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: I wrote this book in a month, and then it
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: was twice as big. So then there was a big
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: 500 pages. And then I thought, voila, I have my book. Yes.
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: And I really thought, voila, I have a book here.
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: And then someone was so kind to read it completely
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: and improve on spelling mistakes. That was full of spelling mistakes.
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: And he also said, what a story. But there is
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: no book. There is more a report that you have written.
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: And when I was a bit on my toes, I
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: sent it to, let's say, six publishers, maybe eight, I
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: don't remember.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: Yes, because you tried to bring it down to a
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: large publisher. Yes, and then I.
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: Got no reaction from four. From four I got a
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: reaction that it was a strong story, but that it
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: was not a book, but a report. And that it
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: is not sellable. One person sent me a long letter
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: to friends and family to explain what had happened. And
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: then I thought, this will come back, this report will happen.
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: Then I left it there for two months, and thought
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: about it, and read it again. And then two more
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: people read it, and they also said, yes, the story
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: caught on. But the way I brought it was just
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: a report. And then I started to laugh. and started
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: scraping and rewriting it. There was no color in it,
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: there was no... It was completely told.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: Yes, completely told.
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: Really told, not.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: You didn't use comparisons? No, and I didn't have any.
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: I came in somewhere and the smell was in the air,
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: or the smell of... That wasn't there yet, it was
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: just literally how it was. This is what happened. It
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: was a lot... much heavier than this. There were a
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: lot more dark details, there were a lot more dirty words. Yes,
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: it was quite a heavy report. And then I sent
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: it back to one publisher who had given me those comments.
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: And then I sent it to Paris Books. And then
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: I saw that they that they saw something in it,
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: but also that I had to shorten it and give
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: it a little more color. It lay still again and
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: in the end I spent six months reading and rereading
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: and rewriting and reading and rereading and rewriting and then
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: I had to go to the sea for ten days
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: where I sat alone with the book and read, reread,
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: rewrite and at some point I just didn't see it anymore.
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: And then I started talking to other people, I started
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: looking for what I was going to do with it,
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: am I going to give it my own control? And
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: I was doubting about that a lot too much. And
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: then I had telephone contact with a, at the moment,
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: quite successful writer, Michiel Hoek, the writer of The Girl
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: Who Changed the World. It was released last year, I think,
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: and it's now at 50,000 copies.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's a lot.
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: And it was also released at Paris Books. Ah, yes. Okay.
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: And I called him and said, what are your findings?
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: And he said, my next book that I've written now,
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: I'll do it again with them.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: But.
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: The owner of Paris Books is.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: Because it's his own management, or is there something in between?
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: There are different possibilities with Paris Books. So they have
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: Paris Books, and then they also have London Books and
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: Amsterdam Books, I think. They have three types. And in
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: Amsterdam Books, I think, everyone can just send their manuscript
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: and they want to print it for you. And there
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: are certain costs to the printing costs. And that is
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: not reread, that is not improved, that is not made up.
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: Everyone can just submit their book. If you go one
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: step higher, or take the more expensive option, then you
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: are at Paris Books. And then you can choose from
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: a whole range of support. That's very professional, but it's
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: also very expensive.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: I really had to pay an editor.
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: You can choose that. So you can choose everything. If
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: you work with our editor, it costs so much for
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: so many words. If you work with our designer, it
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: costs so much. If you work with our designer, you
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: work with... So everything is possible. You can also use
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: their marketing. You can't think of it that way. They
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: have the whole portfolio. And then they have the third one,
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: where they then... The costs and so on, but then
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: you're actually in the classic publisher's business. And then you
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: actually don't care about anything. If you sell a book,
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: you get commission. Or you get your royalties.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: If you're very lucky, it goes over 2 euros, 1.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: Euro, 80 cents. It depends. And then I started thinking.
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: About it myself. I started calculating. I also had contact
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: with another publisher. Which was also in the traditional way,
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: where I got the same story. If you want to
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: adapt this and that and do it like this and that,
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: then we are open for it. But then I started
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: to calculate. So if I could sell a thousand books here,
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: then I would get 1 euro 80, that was the
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: case there. And then I got 1800 euros. And then
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: I worked on it for months, the final year, I
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: broke my head.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: Yes, getting rich, you have to sell a lot of it. Yes,
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: you have to sell a lot of it.
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: And those people are very thin-skinned, but I'm a dreamer. So,
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: getting rich is that ambition. It would be very nicely taken.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: Is that possible? Everything is possible, I think. I'm not
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: trying to find a new car, I'm not trying to
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: find a new light bulb.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: But you've found a lot of things. There's a tablet
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: in your book for older people. Because you're really jumping
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: from one thing to another.
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: I've done everything.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: Unbelievable.
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: But that tablet was already on the market. That was
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: really a hole in the market.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: And what was it specifically for older people, that tablet?
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: It was really a custom-made tablet, so it looked like
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: a photo frame with interchangeable frames that you could put
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: on it. So that's what we had, the demos too.
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: I tested it. So you put it on the shelf,
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: on the shelf, and you could put a nice wooden
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: frame around it. And that was just a clock. Or
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: you could choose whether it was dynamic, so it was
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: a clock or a calendar. And all children or grandchildren
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: could connect with it. So you could make a new
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: WhatsApp contact, grandma tablet for example. And everyone could send
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: their photos there. So grandma sees the photos of the
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: grandchildren there dynamically. One is in the sea, the other
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: is in Thailand, the other has just given birth. So
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: grandma sees photos of the children and grandchildren passing by
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: all day long. You could also introduce people as administrators.
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: And they could also set the agenda for grandma. So
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: at one o'clock on the tablet, for example, the doctor
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: comes within half an hour. Grandma herself couldn't do anything
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: with it, except for a contact list with big icons
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: of the contacts, with which she could video call. So
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: she could click on her daughter or her little daughter
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: and she could video call. She could set the agenda,
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: so if she could jump on that pop-up, she had
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: to just push it and it flew away. And for
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: the rest, she couldn't do anything with it. Now, the
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: option was still there, but so far we haven't reached
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: that there was also a radio on it, so that
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: you could play the radio. Before it was on it,
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: it had stopped. And I really believed in that. The
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: simplicity of that tablet. I really believed that it was
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: the missing link between us, the young people of technology,
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: or certainly the young people who came after us, and
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: the elderly. That gap is very big. My grandma still
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: doesn't have a tablet, doesn't have a gsm. The pictures
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: of the children, the video calls, the agenda. I believed
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: in that. If you say so.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: It's unbelievable that they didn't go through with it. No,
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: Covid broke it down. Or for a while.
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: Because I had contacts with PXL, they worked on it.
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: The guys who were making the software, the prototypes came
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: from China, but that became very difficult and the quantities
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: had to be bigger to keep the price lower. It
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: was all very complicated and the investment became bigger and bigger.
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to name an exact number, I invested
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: thousands of euros in it because I really believed in it,
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: but at some point I just had to give up
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: because I couldn't get any further in the bubble.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: You tried a lot, and put a lot of money
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: into it, and I can also say that a lot
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: of things.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: Went wrong, and that you really got.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: Into financial trouble, but where do you find the strength
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: to keep going? Because I can imagine that... Not.
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: Always works, that's why I got homeless at some point,
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: and I lived in a tent for a while, while
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: I was on my way to Santiago de Compostela, I
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: slept in a tent.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: Because I had money for it.
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: But why? I don't know. It's in the nature of
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: the beast, I think. I think of something and then
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: I think about it further, I start drawing it out
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: or working on it.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: Because every time it worked out to get people so far,
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: to invest.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: No, not always.
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: I have always found people, I also had my own podcast,
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: which was also a very nice project, where I collaborated
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: with a sports doctor, a psychologist, a therapist. Those people
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: were part of it, they wrote programs for it. I
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: did a lot of things. And now, it often seems
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: that the business here... We have to mention it, it's
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: still just a bread bar. Yes, but you've really become
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: a name.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: I had already forgotten that there was a toy store here.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: Yes, it was the Intertoys. Oh, was it the Intertoys? Yes,
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: it was a toy store.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: Coincidentally, the owner of that toy store, who was here
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: for the first time yesterday, had a very nice conversation
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: with him.
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: Yes, as an entrepreneur, I feel like an entrepreneur. If
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: someone asks me, what are you? Yes, I am an entrepreneur,
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: now also a writer. Those are also two titles that
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: I just accept.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: That you like, that you like.
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: Yes. But as an entrepreneur, I am a very, very,
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: very small fish. But I am very satisfied with the
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: water I am swimming in now. So I like to
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: do it. The B & Bs are beautiful, they are nice.
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: I am proud of that. I am proud of that.
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: I am proud of the business that is here. So yes.
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: But I fell very, very often and in the end,
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: something worked out. Because people see what works, of course.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: If it didn't work, you probably wouldn't have been here
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: with your book. No, I wouldn't have been able.
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: To do that. Because here is a serious investment. Because
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: in the end, I let the headache go. Or did
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: I increase it a bit? I made it very easy
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: for me. I let it read, I let it improve.
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: And I didn't take the whole package, I didn't do
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: any marketing. I always thought that this was my first book,
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: I wanted it to be perfect. And I didn't want
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: people to follow me or ask me if I wanted
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: to do it. So I always thought, we're just going
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: to finish it. We're just going to make sure it's there.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: You dared to take the risk. I took the risk, yes.
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: But I try everything and I shoot something in the
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: round and sometimes I hit something. And that's the story
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: of my life actually. I shoot in the round and
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: sometimes I hit something and I'm doing that again now.
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: And I've hit a few things, so that's started to increase.
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: And I'm very satisfied with, the book is now five
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: days out, with the figures that are there today. But
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: we haven't been there for a long time.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: Where you want to be. Or where you think you
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: can come.
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: Yes, the sky is the limit, they always say. And
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: then I think, it's just a book. I'm not saying
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: that I'm going to cure cancer, or that I'm not
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: going to fly to Mars like an Elon Musk. I've
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: written a book. Yes, okay, why could hundreds of thousands
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: of people be successful with a book? Why couldn't I
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: do that? So that.
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: Believing in myself is big enough to say, I have
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: to be able to do that. And if that doesn't work,
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: then I tried.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: It very hard.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: At a certain point, you went to Santiago de Compostela.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: That must have been something. Sleeping in that tent and
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: sometimes in monasteries and so on, did you also experience that?
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: It was a beautiful experience. Life has taught me that
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: when I think back on things, my memory starts to
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: romanticize everything. And when I think back on Santiago de Compostela,
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: I think that was the best time of my life.
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: I had romances there, I got to know people there.
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: In my mind, it's all beautiful sunsets and long beaches
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: and long tables full of pilgrims and friends. But the reality,
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: which I still remember very well, was that the first
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: month was a hell.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: Yes, because you were trained. I can imagine, every day, bleeding.
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: I had 32 at some point, on both feet together.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: So I had 32 bleeding.
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: And then there was a Dutch woman I had learned
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: to know, who told me, you have to prick through.
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: I said, but in half an hour they're back, they're
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: all going back all the time. And then you have
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: to pull a thread through there. So with a needle,
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: you poke a hole and you pull it through. and
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: then you let it hang through and then it stays
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: open and that moisture can come out. So when I
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: arrived somewhere in the evening, camping or whatever, and I
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: took my shoes off and my pants off, I had
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: 32 cords hanging through my feet. So that just looked
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: like this. On your feet, huh?
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes.
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: So at first it was very sharp. But that was
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: the physical pain and that was very good to do.
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: But it was the mental pain or the kick-off phenomenon,
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: Were you very addicted to drugs in the first week?
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: I had two preferences that I was really addicted.
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: To, I was a blower, I smoked a cigarette and
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: I smoked joints from morning to evening. And I snored,
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: so that was speed, amphetamine, whatever you want to call it.
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: And I used that quite a lot from the moment
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: I woke up. But I could hide it in one
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: way or another. So those two were my Yes, my
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: coffee and my cigarettes, like in a normal sleep, so
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: to speak. And in the meantime, I sometimes used other
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: things as relaxation or as relief. But that was my daily... Yes. Yes,
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: my daily sandwich, so to speak. And suddenly I stopped
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: drinking cold turkey.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: And that's what people like me could imagine. Rilling, boating.
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: Bubbling, nightmares, sweating, a lot of sweating. Uh... Anxious feelings, asocial,
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: so not really much sense to talk to people because
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: you think that everyone sees it. So those first weeks were,
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: or those first two weeks in particular, were very busy.
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: And then it was out of your system. And then
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: it started to get more beautiful and clearer and better
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: and better and better. And then it really became a
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: beautiful adventure. Then I had incredible meetings on that trip.
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: I completely opened up to the people I got to know,
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: but also to other people. People took me in, took
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: me out.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: Yes, because on that road, there are also a lot
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: of people who are doing the same thing as you
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: at a given moment.
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: At a given moment.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: So you're really tongue-tied.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: Yes, the story is always tongue-tied, because otherwise I would
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: have to explain the whole story.
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: But in reality it was names. From names to the
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: border of Spain you come. I met five pilgrims, but
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: I didn't meet them. I think I met them three times.
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: I spent a total of four months there. I also
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: made some detours, because I suddenly wanted to go to
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: the sea. I was on my way to the interior
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: of France, but at some point I had enough of it,
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: so I wanted to go to the coast. So I
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: really made some big detours. So I didn't meet pilgrims there.
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: I met people there, a farmer, People in a small village,
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: and we had very nice moments there. So that journey
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: will always have a very warm place for me. And
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: I will always feel Belgian.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: Are you religious?
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: Does that have anything to do with religion?
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: No, I'm not religious, but I am spiritual. I meditate,
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: I want to believe that there is something more. I
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: don't have any proof of that. I hope I'll get
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: that one day, but I don't. I'm jealous of people
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: who say something like, you're a seeker. I'm not looking,
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: I know it, I feel it, I'm very sure of it.
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: I'm jealous of that, because I don't have that. I'm
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: still looking a bit. But I try to be open
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: to everyone and everything, to treat everyone with respect. But
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: I don't believe in what... the religious people. And have you.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: Never been scared?
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: Have you never experienced situations where you thought you were
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: on the wrong side?
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: No, no. There has never really been fear. Yes, there
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: has been fear. If you are in an open forest
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: somewhere or you think, okay, I know now, I'm in
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: this village, it's still so long to walk to that village,
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: I can do that. And suddenly it gets darker and darker.
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: And suddenly you are Is it dark that you say, okay,
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to walk three kilometers anymore, because three
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: kilometers can be three quarters, that's still long sometimes. Then
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: it's scary, yes, to go somewhere in your tent, alone,
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: no houses, no sound, that's scary. But for people I
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: never had a problem.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: And the missing of the people at home, because you
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: also have a daughter who you missed for four months,
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: that must have been hard too, I can imagine.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: That was....
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: In my head, very heavy, I have to be honest
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: with you and the people who are listening, I wasn't
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: an absent father. So I wasn't a good father. I
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: try to be one now, but she's a young lady now.
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: But I missed her terribly hard in my head and
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: I missed her very much in my heart. But that
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: had more to do with my own loneliness, because you're
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: there alone and you have You need warmth, you need love.
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: But I wasn't there for too long. You became a
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: very young dad.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: Completely unplanned.
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: And that's not an excuse, I just wanted to say that.
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: I wasn't there at all. I wasn't there at all.
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: Not at all. But now we have an extremely good
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: relationship and we're both on the same boat. I'm very
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: grateful for that and very happy that she is 21
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: years older than I am today. And that she understands
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: where you came from. She didn't take you as a
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: bad person? No, not at all.
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: We also talk very openly about everything.
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: She also sometimes says, you always say you were a
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: bad dad. But you were a bad dad all along.
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: That's fine, but I don't know how I always felt
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: about it. You're a good dad, I think, when you're present.
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: I wasn't present. I wasn't physically present, but I was
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: present in my head.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: And because you were always busy with the next project? No, no.
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: From her birth, it's... I was financially in trouble. And
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: it got worse and worse. I was already addicted when
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: she was born. And that has only become more. Everything
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: is just fine. And with my family everything is fine now.
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: I have a very good relationship with my parents. I
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: have a very good relationship with my brothers. One brother
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: lives in Canada. And my older brother was like... I
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: had a hard time with that for a long time.
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: the ideal son in my eyes than in my experience was.
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: But now we are very close, so me and my
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: family are doing very well. So yes, at this moment
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: everything is going well.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: Yes, but the parents will have thought about it a
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: few times too.
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: Oh yes.
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: What is he going to do? Yes, and I have
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: needed so many years to see it from their side.
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: Because I have never looked at it from their side.
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: And that only starts now, actually. That I have a
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: concept like that. Yes, it shouldn't have been easy for
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: you either. And I understand now that at some point
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: you have said, it stops somewhere. It's been good.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: And you didn't realize at all that you were spying
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: so much, the moment itself that you experienced that?
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I noticed.
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: I was sure that I was spying, but somewhere, it
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: took a long time. To the point that I thought
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: I was doing something wrong, I'm not bothering anyone. The
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: excuse was always, take sleeping pills, take antidepressants, and you
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: go pinch everyone every night. And then I'm the big
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: junkie because I smoke joints. Because I was always very
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: open about joints. Everyone was allowed to know that. I
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: didn't tell anyone that I snore every day. So I
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: kept that in the back. In Joiners, it's still a bit.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: It's something that's normalized, maybe it's too big, but there
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: are a lot of people who do that.
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: Yes, in the Netherlands.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: And how many movies aren't there, it's just the cool guys, Joiners.
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: Snoop Dogg. So the taboo is much smaller. But I
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: didn't find it problematic for a long time. Until I
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: realized it was problematic. That was very difficult.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: Why do you think you are so addicted? Do you
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: think it's in your genes? Yes, it's in my genes.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: I don't want that.
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: When I was reading your book, I also thought that
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: if something is celebrated, a scene in a hotel room.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: She's going to get a bottle of wine, get a
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: bottle of champagne and we make it fun. It is
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: also true, but many people do that. There is also
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: always fun with alcohol. But that doesn't have to be
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: a problem.
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: And even today I notice, now I can perfectly sit
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: with a friend on the terrace and I'm not going
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: to order a cola. I can do that very difficultly.
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: Or very difficultly, I don't do that. I'm not going
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: to order water, I'm not going to order fruit, I'm
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: not going to order alcohol. a wine, a cocktail, a
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: heavy beer, and... I don't know anymore.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: Do you still see that as an addiction?
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: Because I've seen a Facebook video of you in which
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: you explain that you've kicked off these addictions I still
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: have alcohol and coffee and what was that?
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: Those are addictions, yes. I am addicted to coffee. Do
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: I need it? Yes. If I wake up in the morning,
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: I need a cup of coffee.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: Yes, but you will not be alone.
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: Yes, and if I do not have it, I have
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: to leave urgently and I do not have the time
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: to put the coffee, As soon as I've done what
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: I have to do, the first gas station or the
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: first place where I can stop to get a coffee,
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: I'm going to get a coffee. So that's a addiction.
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: I stopped smoking for five or six months, went to
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: a festival with friends, smoked a cigarette and said, just
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: this weekend, or just when I go out. And that
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: went on for two weeks. And then it was just
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: in the morning, I had to go back with a
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: bag of coffee. And in no time I was gone again.
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: A while ago I stopped drinking alcohol, because I was like, okay,
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: now I want to... And I'm going to do that
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: again very soon. But then I'm like, okay, now I
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: want to be alcohol-free. I don't want anything. While I
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: drink almost every night. But that's one glass of wine,
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: two glasses of wine. I also have the problem, or
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: the advantage, that's how you want to look at it.
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: I analyze a lot. And I analyze myself constantly. And
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: then I think, today I'm not going to drink wine.
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: And then it feels like I'm not... There's also a...
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: then it feels like I'm not allowed to do something.
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: And then I say, well, today I'm making wine. And
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: then I miss that wine even more. And then I've
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: made wine for three days, and then I'm gone, and
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: then I feel better. Then I sit down and drink
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: a bit of beer. And now, recently, I was sitting
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: there for three weeks, yes, about three weeks, and no alcohol.
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: And then a friend comes in and says, well, what
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: are we going to do with the wine? I say, well,
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: I've stopped drinking alcohol for three weeks, so I'm going
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: to have a beer. I'm going to celebrate with a
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: glass of wine. Yes, I left again. I went back
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: to drink a glass of wine every night. And then
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: I really have to say, and now I stop. In
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: my opinion, it is only a problem if you make
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: it a problem. If you don't find it a problem
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: if you drink a bottle of Jack Daniel's every night,
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: then do it for me. If you don't have a
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: problem with it, what does it matter what the rest
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: of the world thinks about it?
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: It's often that these people, and also other people, get
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: hurt in it. Because if you drink a bottle of
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: Daniel's every day.
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: Yes, okay, but from the moment you hurt others, you're
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: always at fault. Or you're doing an aggressive side, or
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: you're doing vandalism. It doesn't matter. But if you're not
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: bothered by it, and you don't think it's a problem,
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: drink your own death.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it's a bit.
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: It's your life.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: It's your own responsibility, too.
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: So, and I thought at some point, I thought one
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: glass a day was a problem. I think it's still
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: the case, but at the moment it's out of convenience.
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: And to myself. Very wrong attitude, but to myself. Is
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: it because of stress?
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: Because a lot of people I know say, if I
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: have stress, I smoke more.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: It's really a means to.
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: It's an excuse. It's an excuse to smoke more. Does
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: it help? It doesn't help at all. 30 seconds maybe. No,
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: but I do that too. When I'm on a diet,
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: I'd rather have a wine and a cigarette. Just kidding.
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: It's the same. I've had a lot of... And we're.
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: Not talking about a long time ago.
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: You once won a large amount of money, and that
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: made it possible for you to buy the foodies.
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: Without that, the step would have been even more difficult.
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: So that was a trigger to say.
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: Yes, but I can imagine that you would have to
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: come from a good home to not get addicted to it,
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: I think, if you win such an amount. I would
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: also think that if it works once, it should work twice.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: I will probably have the same amount again. A very
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: large part of it.
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: Not then, but afterwards. And then it was... If my
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: wife is in bed, I stay awake for a while.
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: And on my phone, I can play for 50 euros.
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: And they're like, okay. I try for another 50 euros,
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: but if I'm at 100, I quit. And then you're
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: at 100, and I'm like... Wow, 150, I quit. And
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: then you're at 150, and I'm like, okay, 200, then
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: I quit. And then I'm back at zero. And that's
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: how you work, too. But at some point, I'm really...
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: I had to go to the website of the Belgian
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: state where you can block yourself. And then you can't
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: go to the casino anymore. If I go to the
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: casino now, I can't go there. Online, I can't go
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: to a gambling website anymore. But it's not a fight anymore.
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: It's just, hey, if I could block myself on a
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: website for... I would probably do that for alcohol as well.
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: Did you overcome all of those temptations yourself?
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: Did you ever get help to get rid of them? No,
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: I've never been to a kick-off clinic. I've never been
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: to a psychologist, a psychiatrist.
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: A specialist. Those conversations have never happened. I've never seen
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: anyone like that.
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: That would mean that you have a very strong willpower. Yes,
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: a willpower that is unbelievable.
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: I don't know, yes that's true. Stopping is actually not difficult.
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: Just stop. No matter what it is, smoking cigarettes, gambling,
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: hard drugs, soft drugs, whatever you're addicted to. From the
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: moment you stop, it's done. But you have to keep going.
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: I can say today, I quit smoking. I can say today,
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: I quit drinking. But I know that I have to
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: go through a period of desolation, a period of discomfort.
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: But if you really want that, that period is not infinite.
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: It stops. And I think, I don't know why some
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: people don't get through it at all. I was probably
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: still smoking a joint every now and then, if it
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: didn't happen what happened in the darkest corner of my life.
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: That's something I've never talked about until now. Now it's
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: in the book.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: Now everyone knows it. Now everyone knows.
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: It, yes. Because it felt shameful that it could have
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: happened to me. that you will doubt about yourself. I
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: see myself as a strong person. I don't think of
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: myself as a weak person. But that was something that
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: I synonymous with, and a weak mind. And someone with,
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: I know, me and other friends, I will just name it,
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: because I often talk about it now.
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: It's about a psychosis that you had.
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: And then, me and other users used to have it
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: more often, because you see it, in the world of users,
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: you see it happen more often. And those are often
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: young people who are gone for good.
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: Yes, those who remain stuck in it.
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: I know several of them from the past who have
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: never returned, who are still in an institution today, or
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: who live in an assisted living, or one who is
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: still with his parents. Yes, that is the right word,
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: because they are no longer completely normal functioning people. They
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: can no longer work in the normal labor market. Most
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: of them can no longer have a normal conversation. They
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: live half in their heads. And yes, explaining that is
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: almost impossible. You can have a hallucinating trip and someone
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: else will never hallucinatory drugs, you can't explain it.
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: And that was exactly what you experienced for 10 days.
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: A hallucinatory trip? No, it's like a hallucinatory trip, and
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: I certainly don't want to advertise drugs now, but if
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: a hallucinatory trip is very light and very colorful and
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: very euphoric.
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: Then you see the colored elephants appear on the wall.
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: That could come out. Then a psychosis is what I
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: have seen, what.
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: I have experienced. The complete opposite of that. It is
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: the darkest, the heaviest, mentally most painful thing I have
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: ever experienced in my life. There has never been anything
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: in my life that came shorter than that. There is
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: also nothing that I am more afraid of than that
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: it would happen again. It was just, if there is
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: a hell on earth, then it is there.
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: That is a feeling, or were those things you saw?
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: It was a combination of everything. I didn't know if
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: I was awake or asleep. I thought the TV was
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: talking to me. I heard voices in my head. I
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: really felt a huge urge for suicide. But that came
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: from the outside. Because in myself I was really fighting.
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: It was so frustrating. It was so... I don't know
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: how to explain it. I think I explained it as
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: well as I can. Yes, it is described as well.
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: If I can explain it, I did it there. I
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: have already talked to other people who have been affected
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: by psychosis and everyone experiences it differently. I've talked to
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: other people who have been affected by psychosis and they
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: all experience it differently. For some it's less difficult, for
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: others it's harder. We won't be able to translate a lot.
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: And how do you know that was the case?
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: Did you go to the doctor afterwards?
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: I felt it.
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: You never went to the doctor?
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: I called the doctor when it was done.
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: But when it happened, at the beginning, in the fall,
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: when you feel yourself falling, there was a realization.
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: Fuck, this is happening. Sorry for the many words. This
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: is happening. Because the housewife I spoke to afterwards said
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: that it was very strange or very exceptional that someone
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: who is in a psychosis is aware that I am
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: in a psychosis. And that saved me, I think, because
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: from then on it was also... Was it done? No, no, no.
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: Then it went into deepening for two weeks. But I
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: didn't strengthen it by smoking, by taking painkillers, by drinking alcohol.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: You realized what was going on and other people didn't
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: realize that.
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: Yes, that's what I learned or read about it. I
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: only have my own experience. I can't imagine that the
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: guys I know, who have been in it for 10 years,
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: So at some point that has to fade away. Or
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: that at some point... Or take medication, maybe that will... Yes,
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: and I'm very happy that I didn't do that. Yes, because... Yes,
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: I don't know anyone who's like that. Yes, yes, I
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: know two guys who are perfectly functioning, who were never
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: like that. But apart from them, most of them are...
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: As if a door has opened and you can't get
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: to it anymore. And they're a bit gone.
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: That's why I also realized that I don't want to
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: go to a doctor, I don't want to go to
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: a psychologist, I don't want to go to a psychiatrist,
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: otherwise I will get a file and that will follow
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: me for the rest.
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: Of my life.
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: I don't want to be spit on. Are you afraid
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: to relapse? You don't think that's.
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: Going to happen? No, that's not going to happen. If
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: I relapse, I will still struggle with my glaucoma in
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: the future. I will hopefully stop smoking completely, but at
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: the moment I don't know. But addicted to heavier drugs? No,
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: I'm never going to quit. I just know that. You
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: feel that, yes. There is no effort either. You also
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: write poems.
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: Maybe we should talk about that a little bit.
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: Because people can also order a closed bundle on your site. Yes, absolutely.
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: And how do you get there? What do you like
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: to do? Because I find that very difficult, personally.
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: The thing is, I've never had anything to do with poetry.
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: I don't have anything to do with it. I've never
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: read poetry or searched for poetry. But I've once started
• 52:40
  Speaker 3: writing about it, on those early mornings. I had periods
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: when I got up at 5 in the morning and
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: sat at the window with a cup of coffee. And
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: then I started writing about it. And so I wrote
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: about 10, 15, 20 articles. And I'm quite impulsive too.
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: And one day I found one of them really nice.
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: I thought it was a really nice poem. I'm going
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: to post it on Facebook. And I did that. And
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: then I started to lead my own life. And people
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: started to share it and react to it. And it
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: touched people. And that strengthened me a bit. My ego shone.
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: And I thought, that does something. So a few days
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: later I started to share that second poem, and that
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: went on again, and then that third poem not at all,
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: but then you had something like, okay, what does that
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: actually matter? If people now, eh, who do like it,
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: that's fine. And then that fifth or sixth poem, that
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: went suddenly, that became more and more, and since then
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: I have started to share more of those poems. I
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: have also always continued to write, now for months no more,
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: because it just, There is no inspiration. Sometimes I try,
• 53:51
  Speaker 3: and then I think, no, it's not there. But they
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: are really simple poems. And even my book, I think.
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: I know I will never find a prize for literature.
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: Because it is just very direct, very straight through the sea.
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: Very accessible.
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: Very accessible. And that's the same with my poems. I
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: think that 90% of the people who read my poems
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: recognize themselves in them or at least understand them. And
• 54:28
  Speaker 3: I have a lot of poetry that I see that
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: wins prizes and that is in big magazines, that I
• 54:33
  Speaker 3: think I don't understand it. I don't understand it. And
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: I have often asked real artists, where does it go
• 54:43
  Speaker 3: wrong with me that I don't understand it? You don't
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: have to understand art, you have to feel it. No
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: one has ever been able to explain to me what
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: I miss here. This is a well-known artist who put
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: this on the wall, because that work is unpaid today.
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: And that's a very good friend of mine. This is
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: clear to me. How do you get on an elephant?
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: Very stupid, because I live on a bull. I'm a
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: fan of Sterrebeeld and I believe in the bull. I
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: feel connected to it. I knew this guy, he was
• 55:23
  Speaker 3: a rising artist. He was already a name, he grew up.
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: I asked him if he wanted to do something for
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: me in my new business. And he said, draw a
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: bull on the wall. I said, a bull? A big saw?
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: A bull? It's going to become a grill restaurant.
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: A bit aggressive, yes, barbecue-like conditions. Yes, grill restaurant or.
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: Something like that. Or something else. I say, yes, wow.
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: He says, take an elephant. That's an animal that stands
• 55:54
  Speaker 3: for peace, for wisdom. And then he made a sketch.
• 55:57
  Speaker 3: I say, oh, it's good to take an elephant. I
• 55:59
  Speaker 3: don't have anything with an elephant.
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, but it's very beautiful.
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: Yes, the elephant has become our recognition point. People are
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: here taking photos of the elephant now. I also think
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: it's really beautiful.
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: It's really beautiful, yes.
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: But then you have some artworks where, for example, and
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: I don't want to insult anyone, I don't want to
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: insult anyone at all, but some people hang a banana
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: on a painting and with a piece of black tape,
• 56:23
  Speaker 3: and that becomes world news and that is sold for
• 56:26
  Speaker 3: 3 million. And then I think, what do I not
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: understand here? Or just one white frame with one red dot. Badalt,
• 56:35
  Speaker 3: that's it. 2,7 million, 10 million.
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: Why did they snore? I don't get it. And I
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: have that with a lot of poetry as well.
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: Those are loose sentences, with no rhythm, no rhyme, or
• 56:45
  Speaker 3: I don't see it. And then I ask myself... How?
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: One of the things they....
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: I was sitting in Hasselt at the academy, and they
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: say that a poem doesn't necessarily have to rhyme.
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: No, that's true.
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: That's one of the things they say, if you want
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: to start writing, don't rhyme. They say, don't do that,
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: that's for... Because if it's done very well, then.
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: That's... That's passing.
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: That's nice, or that's... Yes, there are many poems that
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: don't rhyme. They all rhyme.
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: Always, otherwise that's not right for me, because I read that... Now,
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: I know that a lot of people read my poems
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: and don't hear it. as I hear it. There is
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: a rhythm in it, and that rhymes systematically, and if
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: you read it hard, then it has a nice rhythm,
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: I think. But it's very simple, it's just very simple,
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: it's also what it says, what I mean, there are
• 57:39
  Speaker 3: no hidden messages in it, it's just literally what it says.
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: And yes, I think it's important that it's just what
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: it is.
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: It's clear.
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: And that's important to me, but maybe something is missing
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: with me, or maybe Yes, I don't know. So I
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: also write poems. Sorry for the long answer to the question.
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: I also write poems. When people say poetry, I always
• 58:04
  Speaker 3: have a hard time with that, because they are poems.
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: At the end of your book there is also a
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: kind of preview to the next one, or is that
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: a small scene?
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: Are you really working on that? I'm really working on that.
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: I'm now on page.
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: 150 or 160. I'm not going to blame myself completely.
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: No, it's not that you say it's going to be
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: 27 or 28 or you don't know when.
• 58:32
  Speaker 3: It will be. I have no idea. I also don't
• 58:33
  Speaker 3: know how it's going to be.
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: Ah yes, okay.
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: So I have no idea.
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: You don't start with a structure, you don't... No.
• 58:39
  Speaker 3: No, no. I had that story in my head and
• 58:42
  Speaker 3: I know where the boy is going to go and
• 58:45
  Speaker 3: I know who he's going to meet. And that was
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: for me all... But now he's already very far ahead
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: on his journey and the people I wanted him to
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: meet And now he's waiting for me. And now? Come on,
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: let's keep going. I don't know. I don't know where
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: to go.
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: I don't know how it's going.
• 59:04
  Speaker 3: To go at the moment.
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: It's exciting, but we'll hear about it.
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: Probably when it's over.
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Sooner or later I'm going to.
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: Give myself a deadline that I'm not going to get.
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: And that's going to happen.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: We're also going to give away a book, you said,
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: to the people who share the podcast, who follow you
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: on social media, who follow me on social media. And
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: then we'll choose someone to send us a signed copy. Super,
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: we're definitely going to do that. And to close, it
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: might be nice if you could say a few more things.
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: Yes, read it.
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: I want to thank you very much for wanting to have.
• 59:47
  Speaker 3: This conversation with me. Thank you. It was nice to
• 59:50
  Speaker 3: be here with me, but it was also very nice
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: to have this interview with you. Yes, very nice. Thank you.
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: You're welcome.
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: Here we go. I lie on my inflatable mattress with
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 3: Michael at home, in the mountain hut. It's cold, the
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 3: air is moist and muddy. It smells like dirt. Oude
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 3: wass and spiet. Het is lawaairig, maar tegelijk in mijn
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 3: hoofd ook muisstil. Ik sluit mijn ogen. Ik lig hier alleen, dakloos,
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 3: verslaafd en bijna vergeten door de wereld. En toch besef
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 3: ik op dit moment, dit is niet het einde. Dit
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 3: is het begin. Dit is waar mijn verhaal begint. Dakloos,
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 3: verslaafd en bijna vergeten door de wereld. Lying on a
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 3: inflatable mattress in a mountain hut surrounded by the dust
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: of other people's lives. What follows are 72 chapters. About
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: falling and getting up. About drugs, crime, homelessness and more.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 3: But also about a father who loves his daughter. An
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: entrepreneur who refuses to give up. And a person who
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 3: had to lose himself to find himself.