Latest / Rooted & Real With Keenan / There’s Nothing Wrong With You: Vulnerability, Faith, & Finding Real Community with Dr. Rick Diamond
Transcript
- Keenan: all right. Doctor Rick, thank you so much for being here, taking the time to be here. I'm excited to hear your story. So, Dr. Rick, what is your story? How did you become who you are today? What's your story, Doctor Rick? How did you become who you are today? Smooth transition. Dr. Rick Diamond: That is a very that's a that's a that's a lot. I mean I think this the the really easiest way to for me, especially now I'm an elder, you know what I mean? I'm a grandfather. as I look Keenan: Okay. Dr. Rick Diamond: back over the the the life that my soul is having as Rick Diamond. Keenan: Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: I think my story is one in which I came from a kind of a what looked like on the surface a very traditional white American boy grew up in the church, grew up going to school, Keenan: Hmm. Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: doing all the things, l f finding out what you're good at, what you like, what you don't like, and, you know, was high school president and went off to college and married a pretty girl and did all the stuff. Like all of that is the story on the surface. And underneath there was lots more that was happening. Keenan: Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: That's really the big stuff and the stuff that really matters. And that was Keenan: Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: the spiritual stuff and the emotional stuff. I grew up in a very emotionally volatile and violent home. Keenan: Mm. Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: and my mother and my younger sister and I left our dad r when I was seven and my sister was five. Keenan: Mm. Dr. Rick Diamond: My parents had gotten pregnant with me in college at a nice Christian college. So course they got married in nineteen sixty, you know, did did the whole thing and they were miserable. They were they Keenan: Yeah. Hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: were heartbroken. They both were stuck. And I see that, you know, now that I've done all this healing work in myself and I look back at them and see how they must have felt so scared, so frustrated, so this wasn't what we wanted, but here we are and they were making the best of it and then it just wasn't working. And dad's coping mechanism was to drink and mom was was to rage and we were going to the nice little Presbyterian church and look to door. You know what I mean? Like for me, Keenan: Wow. Dr. Rick Diamond: I think when I look at my story, and many people that I talk to, this resonates for them because they have something like it. Like there was the surface Keenan: Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: level thing that they were doing that was their resume or their life path or the plan. Keenan: Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: And then there was all of this stuff going on underneath that actually is where the juice is. Do you know what I mean? Like that's where the That's where the growth is. And part Keenan: Right. Dr. Rick Diamond: of that comes from struggle. And part of it comes from pain. And part of it comes from, you know, how we respond to fear. And so my story is that in the midst of going through all those the plan, working the plan, that Keenan: Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: something in me the whole time was saying, there's more than this. And I think Keenan: Hmm. Yes. Dr. Rick Diamond: it was my relationship, my my some deep. Weird, mysterious connection to God, source, the all that is, the thing that was that was that I was looking for and I didn't know what it was. Keenan: Yeah. Right. Dr. Rick Diamond: and I looked for it in church and I looked for it in relationships and friendships and work and I worked really hard. I got a master's degree in English. I was a college English teacher for 10 years and I loved it and I was great at it, and it was great. Keenan: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: And I was not happy, like something was not. working and I started Keenan: Hm. Dr. Rick Diamond: having these spiritual experiences that were really meaningful in my twenties and thirties. I could not get a handle on like what does this mean? Like I would be sitting and being quiet. I didn't know I was meditating then. I just thought I was sitting and being quiet, but I was meditating. Like I was going within and prayer, whatever you want to call it, silent prayer, whatever. And I would like feel things and see things. So I I went to the we were going to United Methodist Church in East Texas. Keenan: Okay. Dr. Rick Diamond: And I went to the pastor whose name was Lawrence and he was amazing and a thinker, a deep thinker. And I said, I don't know what I've got a lot of questions. Like I didn't talk about some Keenan: Hmm. Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: my real questions are like, what the hell does this even like what's happening? Like I don't understand anything. Like I'm in pain. I'm curious. I'm trying to hold it all together. That would probably be a good through line for my story. I was trying to hold it all together. You know what I mean? Keenan: Yes, absolutely. Yeah, 'cause on the surface it looks like it even looked like you had it all together, but then underneath you definitely felt it. Yeah. For sure. Dr. Rick Diamond: Yeah. Yes. Totally. Yeah. So all those years of feeling that helped me too in my work when I went into ministry and then became a story healer of Keenan: Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: having compassion for the people who you know that thing about how ducks look very calm or swans or whatever look very calm on the surface and underneath, you know, they're just doing this, doing this, doing this, doing this. Keenan: Yeah, yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: Anyway, I said to Lawrence, I don't know what's happening to me. And he said, Okay, English teacher. Have you ever read any book of the Bible as a book? And Keenan: Mm. Dr. Rick Diamond: I said, I don't have any context for what you're even talking about. And he said, Go read the Gospel of Mark, beginning to end, like a book, like a story. Like see it as a story. And Jesus Keenan: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: is the main character of the story. And understand that the that the people, the community that created this gospel. And I was like, I'm sorry, what? What was that? And he said, you know. It's the gospel according to this community. There's a community of people. They created this story. They want to tell something about what's important to them. Go read it. So I read it and the poet Emily Dickinson said that in I think it's in a letter, that she knew that she had read the truth, like in a poem or some something meaningful, if she felt the top of her head come off. And I mean, I felt the top of my head come off. And I just thought, what is happening? And so that plunged me into. Beginning to see Jewish and Christian scripture that I'd grown up with going to church as expression of human beings who were trying to get at something and fe it wasn't like a it quit for me in my 30s, it quit being a law code or a constitution or a book of nice quotes. And it began for me to be about people's lived experience and Keenan: Mm. Dr. Rick Diamond: what was going on with them. Like what were these people experiencing? What were they feeling? So the whole time I was doing what I call story healing. I didn't know I was doing story work, but I mean like understanding everybody else's living in their story and living in my own story, and what does that mean to me? Keenan: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: And so I ended up going to seminary. I ended up becoming a minister. I was an ordained minister for 10 years in the tr in the Christian tradition. Keenan: Wow. Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: The whole time I kept thinking there's still something missing. I don't know what it is. And I kept struggling. Keenan: Mm. Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: And when I ended up leaving, Organized religion, I became part of disorganized religion. I was with a group of Keenan: Okay. Dr. Rick Diamond: spiritual seekers here in Austin, and we created a faith community that we call Journey Imperfect Faith Community. Like we're gonna ask questions, we're gonna be messy, we're gonna Jesus said, Love God, love people, everything else is negotiable. So that's our plan, like that's our constitution. Keenan: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: And I led it for sev 17 years, 18 years, something like that. Yeah. And it was beautiful and hard. And I grew and grew and grew. I fell deeply in love with mysticism. Like the prop Keenan: Mm. Dr. Rick Diamond: the the Jewish prophets are are mystics. Like they're having these weird visions and they're trying to explain them. And I was like, my gosh, that's totally what I'm experiencing. And then I started seeing Jesus as a mystic, and then I started seeing Mary Magdalene as a mystic. And then I started, and then I started that started bleeding over into I got really curious about. Islam and Buddhism and Hinduism and Native American spirituality, various threads of Native American spirituality. And it didn't take away my own faith. It enriched it. It just got bigger and stronger and more beautiful. And so many people, Keenan, would come to me and say, What's wrong with me? Does God hate me? Am I going to hell? Am I bad? Keenan: Mm. Dr. Rick Diamond: Like over and over and over for years and years and years, I would hear that question. And I I had to really sit with because my first marriage was really unhappy. And I was really unhappy and I was really having to do some real digging into that same question. What's wrong with me? Or is something wrong with me? And what I've discovered was it's not us. It's the thing that's telling us that we're not what we should be, or we should be something else, or like all the men that I knew were mad. All of them. All of Keenan: Mm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: them. All the women I knew were angry too. And And I would be at a men's retreat and men would finally calm down enough, like their nervous system would calm down enough after, you know, being out in the woods and fishing or talking or sitting by the fire or drumming. I ended up doing men's work where I entered into a lot of bioenergetic processes and drummed and wept and got in touch with my body, which was really healthy for me and good and I recommend it for women and women. And what I found was that when people could regulate their nervous system enough to calm down. That they could begin to tell the truth and Keenan: Hm. Dr. Rick Diamond: and say, I have a question, or I'm sad, or I'm angry, or I don't know what the hell I'm doing, or you know, what whatever. And that for me became where the juice was. Like I wanted to be in those moments, in those spaces with everybody I could, as much as possible. And Keenan: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: that became my quote unquote ministry. And that's what I do. Keenan: Wow. Wow. How I mean, how important is it? You know, some people hear that word vulnerable and they go like, ooh, vulnerable. Like, like how Dr. Rick Diamond: Yeah. Keenan: important is that for someone to have a space to be vulnerable and just being able to experience that for themselves? Like how important would you say that is? Dr. Rick Diamond: It's interesting because, you know, we don't live in tribal or familiar groups anymore the way people did for twenty thousand years, right? The way the way Keenan: Mm-hmm. Right. Dr. Rick Diamond: like there was a sense in which before the industrial revolution and dads left the house and went to the factory, you know what I mean? And then that Keenan: Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: became the office. Like there was a sense in which I'm held by my community. I'm held Keenan: Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: by the wise elders in the community, the grandfathers and the grandmothers, and I'm held by the earth, and I'm held by by the cycles of nature. Like I I'm kind of a mess, but I'm I I'm part of something that is coherent. And I think, Keenan, the last hundred years, we have become so disconnected from each other and Keenan: Yes. Dr. Rick Diamond: so disconnected from God, source, nature, the earth, like when is it night? When is it day? We don't know when it's night or day, right? We're on our phones, we're we've got electric lights on or whatever. I think that I think that we are so afraid because we're so isolated Keenan: Mm. Dr. Rick Diamond: and disconnected from each other that to actually say this is what's inside me is really like we don't feel that there is a safe space because there aren't. Like they have to be created, curated. And Keenan: Right. Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: it might be sitting with a therapist who really gets you. It might be sitting in a women's circle where women can actually tell the truth to each other and feel safe. It might be in a men's retreat. It might be with a story healer. I'm a like I'm a coach and a spiritual director and a mentor and a encourager. Do you know what I mean? Keenan: Yeah, for sure. Dr. Rick Diamond: I think that the I think that the thing that we are missing. For real, when you asked how important is vulnerability, I think what we are missing as a culture is the safety to be real with each other. Keenan: Yes, absolutely. Dr. Rick Diamond: And so that's that for me is job one. Like how do we create opportunities and spaces, whether it's one on one, whether it's in person, whether it's a retreat, whether it's a circle, whether it's a a a friend group, but not the friend group where what we're doing is we're making small talk and we're talking about the weather and we're talking about what road did you take to get here? Like who do you know what I mean? Like that's the our default Keenan: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Dr. Rick Diamond: because it's not safe. to be honest about what's going on, because then you get laughed at or you get ridiculed or you get teased or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But Keenan: Yeah. Right. Dr. Rick Diamond: I think that vulnerability, the opportunity to be vulnerable, when people find that, when people find the safety to do that, that's when real healing can happen. I really believe that. Keenan: Mm. Yeah, for sure. So I mean, you mentioned like community. And I I'm even starting to learn now there's like you can have community with just about anybody, but is it like quality over quantity? Dr. Rick Diamond: Mm-hmm. Keenan: So I guess how would you if someone's hearing that for the first time, like, my gosh, I'm feeling isolated. I need community. Like, how does someone begin that that healing process of finding community to be vulnerable with? I mean, what's what's Where would they even start? Dr. Rick Diamond: Yeah. You I mean you're exactly right. That when somebody says that like they feel the prompt, I I do want to connect somehow at a deeper level than the small talk at the office or, you know, Keenan: Absolutely. Dr. Rick Diamond: hanging around with the fellas having a cold beverage and talking about football. I mean, that's fine. What that's it. But that's not it. Like that's not the thing that you're talking about and that I'm talking about. That's that surface level thing I was talking about earlier where we're just doing the thing and working the deal and da-da-da-da-da. And then underneath where something is happening, something like important. That's the real stuff. That's what's happening. Nobody, by the way, nobody puts that on your obituary. Do you know what I mean? Nobody puts that on their CV. Nobody puts it on their on their resume. During these four years, I went through a complete and total crisis and rethought my whole life and everything was on the table and it was great. And Keenan: Mm. Dr. Rick Diamond: I began to rethink who I was and I opened a whole door of possibility for myself. Like that doesn't go on the little cute piece of paper, the the surface level thing, but that's where the juice is. So when some and that's where the meaning is. So when somebody's looking for that, unfortunately, and I'm sure you know this as well as I do, unfortunately, there are people out there who will take advantage of the desire for connection and Keenan: Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: will you To hey, monetize my program and you'll be in my coaching group and then we'll work on your authentic blah blah blah and send me five thousand dollars and and I'm more than happy. I love my clients and I love that I get paid by my clients. That's good. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about somebody who's using somebody's need for connection. And that could be a church. It could be a it could be a social Keenan: Absolutely. Dr. Rick Diamond: group. It could be a therapist, it could be a whatever. So when you said how does somebody find it, the the thing to do I think is to be really, really discerning Keenan: Mm. Dr. Rick Diamond: about where wisdom is and where wisdom is not. Keenan: Mm. Dr. Rick Diamond: And do not be afraid to make a mistake. It's not a mistake. None of it's going to be a mistake. All of it is going to be purposeful, right? But if Keenan: Right. Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: but if this group you try this group for six months, hey, this is a book group, and we were going to do really cool things with this book group, and now they they're not after what I'm after. You get to change your mind. Like, please Keenan: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: go do something else. Like keep looking. but two, I think, I think it's really important to be aware of the part of yourself that has a wound, that has that has Keenan: Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: where the sore spot is, where the pain is, where the crack is, where the light's getting in. And and be discerning about who is going to be safe around your pain and who is gonna take advantage of your pain. That's Keenan: Yeah, for sure. Dr. Rick Diamond: and I I don't I don't I hate to say that, but that's real. Like that's the truth. Keenan: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. We have a Dr. Rick Diamond: So it really becomes a kind of a fishing and a testing and a discerning process. And the first few times may I mean like dating or whatever, right? It's gonna it's gonna there's gonna need to be some like is this the right fit for for what I'm hungry for and searching for? But I also and I tell my clients this all the time, I say this all the time the thing you are searching for is searching for you. Like I really believe that. Keenan: Mm, yes. Absolutely. For sure. Yeah. We always a phrase I always use a lot is you should always tell someone something, but not everyone everything. Dr. Rick Diamond: Yes. Yes. Keenan: so it even even in your phrasing, I'll make sure I heard this right. You almost need to give yourself permission to if you find this community or even this person, to kind of give yourself permission to say, hey, this isn't really working for what I need at this certain time or this certain way. So I mean, how much of that would you say? Is both recognizing this isn't helpful, but also recognizing that maybe I'm I'm uncomfortable in this group or the with this person. And why am I uncomfortable? Am I growing? Am I going through growing pains? Like I guess, do you have any wisdom on discerning that piece? Dr. Rick Diamond: way you just said that was right. Like what am I growing? Like is is is this meeting me at the place where I really want to grow and expand and and get and and look at myself and but the f the piece that I would add to that is is this connection I wanna say safe and I and I think safe might not be right. my wife attended a a series of of women's workshops this last spring and she said that the woman who was the primary leader said, We're not gonna promise you that you'll be safe in this group, but we will promise you that this will be safe enough. Keenan: I like okay. I like that. Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: Right. And the safe enough means like this is a safe container where you're gonna be we have some rules. But and by the way, I'm a big fan of having some healthy, good rules. Like, Keenan: For sure. Dr. Rick Diamond: do we do we allow drugs and alcohol here? Do we allow violence here? Do we allow emotional violence here? Do we allow you know, all the more healthy boundaries we can have, the more safety we're gonna experience in our bodies and our nervous systems and our thinking? And safe enough just means. Like you may have to stretch a little bit. Like you may feel a little uncomfortable here and there. That might be exactly what you came here for. Keenan: Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: So it's not I get to sit in this living room and I just feel so like you can do that by yourself. Keenan: Right. Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: So I think the thing that we're tracking with is on the one hand, I'm bringing awareness of where I'm in pain or where I'm in desire. What is it that I'm hungry for? What is I'm looking for? And I also know what's safe or or or okay with me. And I'm also gonna be willing to stretch a little bit and see Keenan: Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: if there's something that I need to move into that's more challenging. And and in the best sense. Keenan: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: And also if if we're lonely and we're needing connection and we're needing to grow and we're needing to which we all are and we're needing to expand our sense of our selfhood, keep testing the leaders. Keenan: Hm. Yeah. For sure. Dr. Rick Diamond: Like testing them to see how healthy they are. Because whoever's in leadership, and maybe everybody's co leading, maybe it's AI Avatar - Keenan Number 2: Feeling overwhelmed, anxious, disconnected, or just stuck. I'm Keenan Crowley, a registered mental health counselor intern, and I work with children, teens, adults, couples, and families across Florida. My approach is practical, down to earth, and focused on helping you understand what's going on, build real coping skills, and make meaningful changes in your everyday life. I offer in-person counseling in Orlando and Longwood, as well as virtual sessions throughout Florida. I'm currently accept accepting new clients. If you've been thinking about starting counseling, this may be a good time to take that first step. You can learn more about me and my approach through my Psychology Today profile or reach out to schedule a consultation. Dr. Rick Diamond: there's no one leader, right? But whoever it is that's talking the most, watch and see for yourself whether you feel this is aligned. Keenan: Hmm. Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: and then and then take a risk. See what happens. You can always change your mind. Six months from now you can change your Keenan: That's Dr. Rick Diamond: mind. Keenan: absolutely for sure. something I wanna ask about and is you know, testing leadership, asking really good questions. Like so much of that, even in like Christianity and faith, is it can be even almost frowned upon, or people can manipulate it, like, you don't trust enough, you don't have enough faith. Like like I love asking questions. You love asking questions. How important is that? aspect of your walk to be able to ask those questions. Dr. Rick Diamond: For me, the I'll I'll give you a perfect example. At Journey Imperfect Faith Community, it was a big beehive every Sunday morning because there was that somebody was gonna read a scripture and then somebody was gonna read a roomy poem, and then somebody was gonna do a piece of art, and then somebody was gonna sing a song, and we were all just walking around, talking and carrying on, and it was very holy, but not very holier than thou. You know what I mean? Like it was messy in the Keenan: Yeah, I gotcha. Dr. Rick Diamond: best sense. It was Keenan: Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: meaningful community where we're all cross palinating and we're connecting and talking and it's lovely. And a woman walked in one Sunday morning in the gap between study hour and and the worship gathering. Bell bottoms, she looked about 40. She had her hair in a long braid. She moves through the crowd. I'm talking to ten different people. We're all getting our some guys, you know, setting up the what were we doing that day? we were gonna write our prayers on dissolvable paper and then drop them in a baby pool in the middle of the room. Anyway, anyway. Keenan: Okay. Dr. Rick Diamond: And she walks up to me and she's I'm a foot taller than her and she looks up at me and I said, Hi and she said, Are you the guy? And I said, I I am the guy. I'm the talking head here. And she said, She pointed her finger in my face and she said, If you lie to me, I will effing walk out. Only she didn't say effing, right? The whole thing. And I knew she had been wounded by the church somehow, some way. And I knew that she needed, speaking of being vulnerable and taking a risk on connecting, she needed to say that in order for herself to feel that she could move forward and being in the space with us. And I just looked at her and said, First of all, I will never lie to you. Second, hold my feet to the fire, make me tell you the truth. Tell me when I'm wrong. She was like, okay. So she so she stayed. She became part of the faith community. The the thing that I think that the the organized religions throughout history have made have have erred on the side of, I think have made a mistake around is like it's a beautiful thing to have order. Like that's good. Keenan: Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: It's helpful. Like speaking of having the safety, we need boundaries so that we can have the safety to experience Keenan: For sure. Dr. Rick Diamond: and feel and sing and c connect and talk and all that. Feel God's presence, whatever. The order piece, when the church becomes big and powerful, Keenan: Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: and there's more money, or there's a big building, or there's a big cathedral, or there's people with a lot of power, that power can become its own God for people. Keenan: Right. Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: And the order, we this is how we do things here, becomes its own God. It becomes a false God. Keenan: Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: And what I see with Jesus and with the teach the prophets in the Jewish scriptures is all the time saying, like when Jesus says, I know you've heard this teaching, but I want us to look at it like this like that's questioning. Like what Keenan: Yeah. Yeah, that is. Dr. Rick Diamond: he's doing with people is inviting them into like. I think do you know Richard Rohr, the Franciscan priest who is amazing? He's he's written so many beautiful books. Anyway, he's in New Mexico, the Center for Action Keenan: Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: and Contemplation. I think he counted it up and said that of the however many hundred questions Jesus gets asked, he gives three direct answers. Like the rest of the time, he'll turn the question Keenan: And strong. Dr. Rick Diamond: back and say, What about this? And have you thought about this? Or that's not even what I'm interested in. What are you what do you want? What are you interested in? I think that the when the need to ask the question, like the the and the courage to ask the question creates the possibility for actual connection, as opposed to we're up front, we know the answer, you must obey and believe in order to get the goodie. Like that's not a that's not community. Do you know what I mean? Like that's not that Keenan: Right. Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: And that does by the way, that does not encourage vulnerability. Keenan: For sure. Dr. Rick Diamond: Because the men and women up front are not showing us any vulnerability. They're showing us the official thing with the outfit, whatever the outfit is, or the whatever you know what I mean? They're doing the thing, but it's Keenan: Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: a show. There's not a a meaningful connection there where people can say, But I have a question. I'm or I'm sad or I'm hurt or whatever. And we and I've trained many, many seminarians. I've been on the faculty, adjunct faculty of three different seminaries and s and theological schools. I love working with people who are figuring out what they want to do, right, with their work in the world Keenan: Yeah, for sure. Dr. Rick Diamond: for God. And I keep saying to them over and over, the thing that you're really interested in is not efficient. Keenan: Mm. Dr. Rick Diamond: It's messy. It's slow. Like Keenan: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: actually making space for people to grow or to change or to heal. You need to slow down more, more, more, more, more. And the guys with the budget or the guys with the spreadsheet or the girl the girls with the plan, congregational plan, or whatever, you know, fill in the blank. And this, Keenan: Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: by the way, this applies to every office. It applies to everything, everything, right? Keenan: For sure. Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: We want this to get done. Let's move along. We've got things to do. We've got things to achieve. And you know, meanwhile, Jesus is over in the corner playing with the kids. Keenan: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: on the ground. And we're and we're missing what's actually possible. And this is true in every spiritual tradition, Eastern, Western, Indigenous, like the willingness to slow down and make room for spirit to do something takes time. It takes room and Keenan: Yeah, for sure. Dr. Rick Diamond: the willingness to be vulnerable and be open and not know what's gonna happen. Keenan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So even I even liked how you you mentioned that you know asking a question is like it kind of brings the leaders closer because you're almost both getting information and you're building a relationship asking those questions. Like that bond is stronger. It's doing it's like Dr. Rick Diamond: Yes. Keenan: a two for one, maybe even more. Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: Yeah, maybe even more. Keenan: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Dr. Rick Diamond: Because to your point, when when people who are running the show or leading or helping or facilitating or whatever are willing for everybody to come close Keenan: Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: and everybody to bring all that they are, because we say in American churches, everybody's welcome. You're welcome exactly as you are. We do not believe that. Keenan: Right. Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: Like I mean, right? You're we everybody's Keenan: For sure. for sure. Dr. Rick Diamond: welcome, but don't be a problem. And everybody's welcome, but get on the bandwagon. Everybody's welcome, but please don't ask too many questions and make us go slower. Keenan: Right. For sure. Dr. Rick Diamond: But like meaningful personal growth, meaningful healing, meaningful spiritual transformation does not happen on a factory assembly line. Like Keenan: Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: that's not it's not a product to be spit out and measured. Keenan: Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: Like what people are really after is deeper than that. And so, and so then pastors say, Why aren't people coming to church anymore? Do you know why? It's because they're bored. And because nothing happens. Like, nothing's Keenan: Yep. Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: happening. Well, but we're putting on a really good show, and we just got a new youth director, and we've got a really good screen now. And I feel really good about our okay. Who's that about? Dude, that's you. Keenan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: You're telling us all the things you've done to do the thing that you think should be. And when I was just a couple of years into being a college English teacher, I went to a conference called it was put on by the Center for Critical Thinking and Instructional Reform. And all they did was ask questions. They questioned Keenan: Okay. Dr. Rick Diamond: and and challenged everything. And I'm I mean, I was speaking of my head. The top of my head come up. I mean, I was set on fire. And I heard the leader of this conference say, Remember, just because you're teaching doesn't mean anybody is learning. And so people are hurting, right? We are we Keenan: Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: are living in an age in which people are isolated and scared Keenan: Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: and in pain and they think something's wrong with them. Keenan: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: Like, what's wrong with me? Why am I in pain? And Keenan: Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: we're not meeting them where they are because we're putting on the show or we're counting butts in pews, or do you know what I mean? Like that's not it. We it's a Keenan: Right. Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: huge disconnect. Keenan: For sure. What what role would you say like social media plays in that? Isolation? how we feel? Everybody's everybody's on social media and it seems to be Dr. Rick Diamond: Yeah. Keenan: I don't know. I mean, what do you how do you feel that role plays in that? Dr. Rick Diamond: That is a great question. I've been thinking about this a lot. Like I'm on social media, as you know, and I love Keenan: Well. Dr. Rick Diamond: the my the people that I get to connect with on social media. And at the same time, when I first got on social media a few years ago to actually say, Hi, this is Rick the Story Healer, and here's my thing that I'm sharing with you. Here's my thought for the day that I'm sharing with you today. I really said to God and the angels, I don't want to try to make something magical happen. Like I'm just giving this as an offering. And what I heard back was, great, that means you're gonna let us be in charge, which would really be better in general about everything. So if you could just continue to let us be in charge and you not try Keenan: Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: and make everything happen, that would be great. And I was like, that's really funny. And you know, whatever. I think that there is a very big differen. No, I don't think this. I know this. There is a very big difference between The so f the social media presence and the offerings of people and creators and what are you what are they? Influencers, right? Right, who are trying to Keenan: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: sell us something. If it's about selling something, or it's about getting like making you get with the program, do you know what I mean? Or it's Keenan: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: about your body or it's about your food or it's about your health thing or it's about your work or it's about your whatever. All we're doing is watching commercials. Keenan: Yeah, for sure. Dr. Rick Diamond: That's not soul filling. Like that's not that's telling us there's something wrong with us and that we need to be working on something. And if we buy this thing or we sign up for this thing, then it will be then we'll be better or happier or blah, blah, blah, whatever. But I have also seen the other side of social media, which is where there are people who I know like that woman who posted that thought for today, that's real for her. Like she's just saying to the world, Keenan: Mm. Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: hey, this is my struggle with sobriety. Hey, this is my the thing that I just learned about how to love my kids through a difficult season. Hey, this is my this is look at this beautiful trip that I went on and I remembered who I was. Like those things for me feel more like actual connections. Like I don't know those people, but I feel like something real is be I'm being reminded of something that's authentic. but if that's all we're doing, like if all we're doing is making if I'm just making connections that are this big, that's not a whole person. Keenan: Right. Right. Dr. Rick Diamond: This little screen is not a whole person. And I Keenan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: and I think that what's that phrase? I need a God with skin on. Like we need connection to actual humans. So it goes back to your Keenan: For sure. Dr. Rick Diamond: question earlier about how do we even deal with connection and and work on our and and create vulnerability because We're so disconnected from each other, which I think is true. So so I think social media is a like the connections that I've made with so many people through social media have been so lovely. Like messages and learning things about each other and my gosh, that's so cool. You guys are in what is this band you're in? I want to follow you and I wanna support you Keenan: Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: and you know, all that kind of stuff. It's lovely. I mean, I have so many followers. I don't know where these people even came from. It's so beautiful. I didn't try and make this happen. I didn't hire a thing to make get more followers, like that's just more selling more. Do you know what I mean? Like that's more of this illusion, this surface level thing. But I think that when people feel I think that there is a danger in Believing that our connection through social media can replace actual with skin on connection. Do you think that's accurate? Keenan: Yeah, I do. I think that's accurate. And I think people will look at social media and think they're really close to somebody or think they know about people. And then be like, I I know all about X, Y, and Z. And I think that with social media paired with, Hey, look how great this person's doing. And then we instantly look at ourselves and think, my gosh, like so and so's doing so good and I'm doing so bad. Like I think that for me, I like that comes up a lot. And so I always talk about like comparison is the thief of joy. And if Dr. Rick Diamond: Yes. Keenan: we compare ourselves to people online, we will have no joy. 'cause they're just post posting the highlights and then we're comparing it to our normal selves. And so like we have to be able to differentiate between like what is real and what is just like hype or trying to or trying to sell something, you know, like artists trying to sell tickets or whatever. so yeah, I think it there's a balance to it. Dr. Rick Diamond: Does that also in your practice and in your experience, does that also connect to s people's sense of loneliness or disconnection? Because we're seeing Keenan: Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: somebody else being the thing that we think we're supposed to be, which is not even real? Keenan: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think like Dr. Rick Diamond: Wow. Keenan: people have different ideas of what like community and loneliness is, where some people feel so lonely because it doesn't look like the ideal community. And it's like if we really dig into it, like who do you normally see? Like who do you talk to? I talked to like my friend at at school or my or my friend at work. And it's like, okay, so like You're not that lonely, but it's not quite as deep as you would like it to be. and so we talk about that a lot. That comes up a lot. And even this idea of like what isolation and community looks like, like, like you and I have an idea of what it looks like. And you even talked about it really well. And agree. I agree. But it's also like there is if it's not producing fruit, then it's like, what are we doing with that? Dr. Rick Diamond: What are we doing? Keenan: Yeah. in fact Dr. Rick Diamond: Completely agree. Keenan: really bad community can hurt us more than help us. like yeah, yeah. So Dr. Rick Diamond: Yes. So then people get into that place of saying, Do I even is do I even want to risk it? Like, do I even want Keenan: Right. Dr. Rick Diamond: to do I want to put myself out there because I got hurt by this friend group that turned nasty or this friend of mine who went through a big change and now we're not close anymore and now I'm in pain and da da da. And I don't want to answer that for anybody, but I really believe that continuing to try to make meaningful connection and go deeper as long as I'm like looking within and saying, okay, where am I afraid? Where am I hurt? Where where am I like what what am I what are my biases here? And also, where would it be good for me to stretch? Keenan: Right. Absolutely. A hundred percent. Dr. Rick Diamond: Like, by the way, I have been in so I'm 65. I've been in many, many groups of friends and churches and work relationships and men's circles in my adult life, in my 45 years of adult life. None of them were permanent. None of them had to last forever. All of Keenan: Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: them were temporary. Like everything else in this body, in this life experience we're having, all of it's temporary, in which case, hold it loosely. Okay, so you were part of this group for two years and then you that lady turned weird. Okay, do something else. Keenan: Right, for sure. For sure. So a couple of questions I like to ask near the end that have really stretched my guest. are the first one is, and you you may have already hit on this, but I kind of want to concrete it down. if you had everyone's attention in the whole world for one minute, president of the world said, Hey, Dr. Rick, like the world needs to hear something. What do you think they need to hear? Dr. Rick Diamond: There is nothing wrong with you. Keenan: Mm, yes. Absolutely. Mm hmm. Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: You're not the problem. You're not the problem. You can be in pain. You can have stuff that you're struggling with. by the way, everybody's in pain, and everybody has stuff they're struggling with. Every single human being. Keenan: Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: And also, everybody poops, right? All these beautiful Keenan: Yes. Yep. Sure new. Dr. Rick Diamond: influencers, George Clooney, absolutely, whoever whoever your thing is that you're looking at, thinking, gosh, I need to be more like them. And everybody is in pain and everybody's afraid. Everybody. Everybody. Keenan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: So your feelings about what is wrong with you, where is what is that story? Like, where did that even come from? Keenan: Hmm. Yes. Dr. Rick Diamond: Did it come from shame? Did it come from pain? Did it come from disappointment? Did it come from a toxic home? Did it come from your messages in your culture that are not healthy, which we've all also inherited in our culture? That's real. Keenan: Mm. Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: Like, if I can if I can help you see that you're not that story and that what you are within is beautiful and amazing and powerful and magnificent and whatever, you go, go, go, go, go, go, run with it and go. Like, that's my message Keenan: For sure. Dr. Rick Diamond: for everybody. That's the title of my book. There's nothing wrong with it. Keenan: There you go. So pe Dr. Rick Diamond: Yeah. Keenan: I, you know, we talk a lot about faith, mental health here in this podcast. And some people Dr. Rick Diamond: Mm. Keenan: even listening could be like, you know, I want to get counseling or I want to get help and I'm out kind of on the fence about it. Like, what do you think they need to hear to get off the fence? Dr. Rick Diamond: So if the reluctance to getting mental health help, to t being in a group therapy session, working with a story healer or a spiritual director, whatever, if the thing that's keeping you from it is that you think that they that the people who are operating it don't have anything for you, you are wrong. Keenan: Mm. Dr. Rick Diamond: Like there is going to be wisdom for you in whatever door opens. Keenan: Yes. Dr. Rick Diamond: That does not mean that they know everything. That does not mean it has to be perfect. But if you're thinking they can't really teach me anything, that you're wrong. Like I promise you, there is always wisdom, there is always something. And if that door opens, it's because you're supposed to walk through it. And you're supposed to be discerning and tested and all that stuff. But I would also say if the thing that is keeping you from moving forward is That you're afraid that something's gonna come out that's bad. Keenan: Mm. Dr. Rick Diamond: Which I see a lot. Like people just say, I'm so screwed Keenan: Yeah. for sure. Dr. Rick Diamond: up. I'm so I'm so horrible. I've done so many terrible things. I can't go talk about this. Please find a mental and emotional health and a spiritual health professional. Keenan: Absolutely. Dr. Rick Diamond: Y'all, we will we will hold what you have with so much honor and so much respect Keenan: Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: and so much compassion and so much understanding. 'Cause you spot it, you got it, as we say in recovery. Like we t we we are messy. We're we're human, we're broken, we're healing. That's Keenan: For sure. Dr. Rick Diamond: the truth for us as well. So if you're afraid you're bad, you're not. Like take the step. Like I like if the th if the thing has been placed in front of your feet, like I really believe this adage that our life is our teacher. Keenan: Mm-hmm. Dr. Rick Diamond: Like the thing that is happening in our life is the thing that we are being led to. And it's that beautiful Jewish scripture that says, your word is a lamp for my feet and a light for my path. Like a lamp Keenan: Mm. Yep. Dr. Rick Diamond: is only about a foot wide. Like the light from it. It's just a step at a time. That's it. Keenan: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: And whatever the next step is, take it. Keenan: Hmm, for sure. yeah, no, that's I use that one a lot too. You know, you can only see so far with the lamp. but it's what God needs you to see. any good Dr. Rick Diamond: If it's the thing in front of you and the light is shining on it, walk toward Keenan: Yep. Dr. Rick Diamond: it. Keenan: Absolutely. For sure. any good like books, podcasts, blogs people can look up to do more research on what we've kind of talked about today. I know you wrote some books. would love to hear about them. Yeah. Dr. Rick Diamond: That is a great question. I my book comes out October the 14th. I'm super excited. Keenan: All right. Yes, for sure. Dr. Rick Diamond: so and you can come to my website and find out more information about the book and all that good stuff. So that's happening. I am a really, really big fan of podcasts that invite people of faith to be willing to ask questions and to and to and to to like test questions. what they believe. I if if all we're doing is just hearing the same thing over and over and over, then then how are we growing? How are we stretching? Whatever. I mean it feels like I really like in the evening to watch TV and relax. Like that's a that's just okay, you're safe now. Everybody just calm down. Everything's cool. But if all we're doing all day long is just like s hollering into the echo chamber. So we're just hearing our own thoughts back. Like go find a go find a The podcast that's asking a question about maybe it's your faith, maybe it's maybe it's about sobriety, maybe it's about recovery, maybe it's about pain, maybe it's about an issue about being a man or being a woman or being a trans person or being a gay person or being a what like what maybe a person of color has a real question about their place in society that they want to challenge what the story has told them about who they can be, and they get to step up Keenan: That's right. Dr. Rick Diamond: and I wanna hear other people talk about that. I wanna hear other sources of wisdom speak into what's possible. So I'm a big fan of just l looking for what like feels like it's the right fit and and then just jump. Just go. See what happens. Keenan: For sure. For sure. Well, Dr. Rick, thank you so much for being here, sharing your wisdom. really appreciate it. Really appreciate the conversation. Had a great time. Dr. Rick Diamond: Keenan, thank you so much. Thank you for the good work you're doing. Thank you for putting this out into the world. Thank you for being willing to invite people into this larger way of being human and being healthy and and their relationship to God and themselves. I mean, this is good stuff. And I I know there's great things to add for you. So keep rolling, brother. Keep rolling. Keenan: Awesome. Thank you so much for that. Dr. Rick Diamond: All right. All right.