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Wander the World: Responsible Pangolin tourism · Wander the World with Pippa Hudson

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: In Wonder the World Today, we want to talk about
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: pangolin tourism and how operators can responsibly deal with visitors
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: who are coming wanting to see one of Africa's most
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: elusive and most endangered animals. A little bit earlier in September,
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: it was my privilege to share a panglin round table
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: hosted by Go to Africa, during which various conservation experts
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: and wildlife advocates spoke about the challenge of protecting these
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: magnificent creatures. I'm not sure how well known their story is.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: We've had a few conversations on the show about pangolin poaching,
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: and if you need a reminder, let me just tell
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: you there are eight species of pangolin left alive in
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: the world today, four of which are present in Africa,
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: and sadly, they are very often described as the most
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: trafficked mammal on the planet. Efforts to raise awareness of
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: the poaching and trafficking problem have done a great deal
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: to raise awareness of the problem and public outcry. There's
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: a bit of a double edged sword here, because in
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: heightening awareness of panglins and their plight, we've also driven
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: an increase in demand to see them. And to have
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: visitor experiences interacting with them, and that's not necessarily always
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: a good thing, particularly if those interactions are not being
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: managed very, very carefully. So I was really encouraged at
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: that event to hear several of the contributors speak about
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: the very active role they are taking in drawing up
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: guidelines to help ensure responsible pangulin tourism and viewing experiences,
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: and to ensure that their guests, if they are lucky
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: enough to see one, know how to behave know how
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: to interact or keep their distance when it's called for,
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: and not do anything that causes harm to these animals,
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: even if it is unwitting. It's the last thing we
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: want that somebody coming wanting to see them, wanted to
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: be part of the solution, unwittingly causes further damage. Now
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: to talk to us about this, it's a great pleasure
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: to have two guests joining us today. With me in
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: studio is Liesel Fanzel, who is the head of Positive
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: Impact at GO to Africa who organized that roundtable, and
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: joining us by a zoom is Gareth Toma, who is
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: an ambassador for the African Pangolin Working Group. And many
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: of you will recognize him from the recent Netflix documentary
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: called Pangolin Kulu's Journey. He's the guy who got to
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: walk the pangolins in the bush. If you need a
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: clarification to both of you, thank you so much for
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: being here this afternoon. Lizel in studio and Gareth via zoom,
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: you're very welcome to the show.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: Thanks for having us.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: With that pleasure and hello again Gareth here much. Sure great.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: I'm going to start liedl if I may with you
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: because it's very interesting to me that a group like
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: Go to Africa took the initiative to organize the event
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: in September. Can you tell our audience a little bit
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: about the company and its ethos and what made you
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: want to be part of this concept of hosting a
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: conversation about how we get this right?
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: Sure, thanks again for having us. We are passionate about
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: African safari travel and that is really our expertise. But
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: through that we have realized that we have a platform
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: and we have influence and we rarely want to use
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: that for good. We want travel to be a force
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: for good, and not in a high pressure way, but
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: in a way that really for example, looking at our
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: supply chain and making sure we have a sustainable supply chain.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: We've just audited that we're actively engaging with our suppliers
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: but also using our influence with our thousands of hundreds
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: of thousands of travelers to shine a spotlight on on
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: really important topics and so this There are a few
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: things that we do regularly. There's a few things that
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: we experiment with and thanks to one of my colleagues, Leaseel,
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: she co created this event and together just with being
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: inspired with seeing the documentary and knowing that we have
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: this platform, was an opportunity to experiment and see if
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: this is something that we can really share and tell
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: the story to our international audience of travelers.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: You do tend to have a large number of high
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: end international travelers who have the disposable income to spend
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: on this kind of travel and can say to you,
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: I want a best spoke trip where I want to
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: see X, Y and Z. And as I said at
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: the start, that's wonderful that we have people wanted to
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: come to Africa and spend their tourism money here and
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: have these experiences respectfully with our bush. But it's got
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: to be managed so carefully. Lesil to make sure that
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: they know what they're getting into and how to do
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: that in a responsible way. Do you want to just
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: pick up on the thread. I know you believe very
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: passionately about ensuring that your guests travel informed. How can
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: you elaborate for our audience on what that means?
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  Speaker 2: I think in many ways. In the time I've been
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: doing a lot of this research, I've been connecting with
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: global partners across the world, and I think in many ways,
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: the African safari industry is quite advanced because of the
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: fact that we have ecritical ecosystems alongside vulnerable communities. There
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: have been lots of large partners and operators and safari
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  Speaker 2: companies that have really paved the way for this. That
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  Speaker 2: sets a beautiful example for the rest of the world.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: For us, how we want to be a force for
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: good and we want to our to travel informed is
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: depending on where you're at in the journey. Some of
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: our guests will come to us and say, we really
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: want to have a particular experience, we want to have
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: an authentic community interaction, or we want to give back
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: to this particular We recently had guests that we're going
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: to Namibia and they wanted to each of their children
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: to visit an age appropriate kind of school or education
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  Speaker 2: environment that they could give back to after So there
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: are many different requests. Others just want to have a
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: good safari and they want to see great animals. And
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: I think for us, the stance we've taken is to
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: make sure that the partners that we collaborate with, in
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  Speaker 2: other words, the lodgers, the ngios we have are all
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: ensuring that their footprint on the ground is minimum and
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: their impact is maximum. So where the selection process around
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: our partnerships is what we believe is critical, and that
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: then kind of flows into the advice that we give
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: our guests.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, now let's bring Gareth in at this point, because
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: Gareth is the person in this comp today who has
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: worked most closely with pangolins themselves and has worked in
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: the space of looking after pangolins that have been rescued
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: from traffickers. And Gareth, it's wonderful to have the chance
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: to chat to you again. Thanks for joining the conversation today.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: Can you maybe just start by briefly explaining to our
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: listeners why pangolins are being poached and what it is
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: that is making them so highly sought after by poachers.
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: Thanks Papa hegis on Nasty here your voice again. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: So locally panglins are used in traditional practices. The main
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  Speaker 3: driver of the trade is the international Asian market for
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  Speaker 3: traditional medicine, so very similar to rhin o'horn, the very
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: same sort of syndicate around that, and that's obviously were
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: in Asia. The Asian species have been poached to near extinction.
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: And what's that done. What that has done is it's
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: expanded the trade, and it's seen the trade now land
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: on African.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: Soil, right, so they've literally used up what is available
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: on their doorstep and on our coming here looking for
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: particularly the scales, and it's such a different difficult one
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: to enumerate and to count accurately, because panglins are such
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: a lusive creatures, we don't rarely have a good sense
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: of how many of them are out there or we're
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: out there to start with, Gareth, what we do have
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: to go on is unfortunately tonnage of scales that have
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: been intercepted, a number of animals that have been rescued,
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: whether too soon or to whether soon enough or too late,
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: is another part of the conversation but really, what is
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: being recovered from poaches and syndicates that have been cracked
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: is our kind of best indicator of the extent of
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  Speaker 1: the problem, isn't it.
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. And if you look over the last
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  Speaker 3: few years, I mean we're talking about tons and tons
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  Speaker 3: of scales that have been intercepted at a lot of
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  Speaker 3: them at the Nigerian borders and out of Central Africa
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  Speaker 3: and that sort of that sort of side, and that
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  Speaker 3: equates into thousands and thousands and thousands of animals. As
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: you say, I mean, we don't We don't know how
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: many we had, and we don't know how many we
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: left we have left, and so you know, it's a
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: funny thing to think about every single panguin that we
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: do manage to pull out of the illegal trade, there
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: is the thought that this could be the last one. Yeah,
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: we don't. We don't actually know that. And like you said,
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: there are impossible to find. There are little escape magicians
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: and yeah, so I mean in terms of doing some
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: sort of census on them for all intensive purposes, that's impossible.
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  Speaker 3: We will almost certainly never be able to actually get
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: a figure and say for sure, right, there's so many left,
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  Speaker 3: like I know, I heard a very scary fact the
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  Speaker 3: other day that there's one hundred and twenty Asian leopards left.
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  Speaker 3: We will never know that. With pangolin. We will never
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: know if we do have potentially the last one in
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  Speaker 3: our hands when it arrives.
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  Speaker 1: And that is because they are elusive. They live in burrows.
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  Speaker 1: They don't readily emerge from those burrows when there are
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: noisy people and cars around them in daylight hours. Gareth.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: They do occasionally, though, and that's the reason we're having
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: the conversation today primarily is to talk about how we
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: manage those interactions when they do gift us with an appearance.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's one aspect of interacting with pangolins through
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: the rehab centers like the world you have worked with
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: and continue to work with, where you are dealing with
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: animals that have been rescued from poaches. Some of those
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  Speaker 1: are lucky enough to be strong enough to go back
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: into the wild afterwards, but not all of them. When
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: you encounter a panglin in the wild, though, I mean,
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  Speaker 1: I think the awareness of the trade and the awareness
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: of just how special they are is perhaps raising people's
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: sort of cognizance of what a rare and unique sighting
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: it is to have. And as I said at the start,
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: that's a double edged sword because it then drives demand
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: to be well. I want my safari to include a
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: pangolin sighting, which can almost never be guaranteed. Gareth, you're
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: working very hard though, to ensure that when it does happen,
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: lodgers and the people who work in them and those
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: game rangers know exactly what to do to make sure
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: that that is a safe interaction. Let's talk a little
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: bit about what that looks like, because I think the
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: thing I heard the night of the round table which
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: horrified me the most was your comment that a lot
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: of people's responses they want to pick it up and
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: cuddle it and take a selfie with it. And I thought,
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: you know, nobody in their right mind would think to
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: do that with a lion cub. Why do they think
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: it's okay to do it with this wild animal? Do
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: you get that a lot that that is people's first
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: response is to actually physically want to interact with.
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: Them, So it is it is something that's surprising because,
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: like you say, you know, you wouldn't expect to go
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: and want to cuddle a line. I don't know, some
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: people might, but I think it's predominantly because the only
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: defense of panglin has is to roll up in a ball.
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: And you know, that's a very effective response against lions, hyena,
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: leopard and everything like that, but unfortunately, against a human
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: it's no defense at all. And I think it's it's
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: it's quite similar to I think people handle tortoises as well.
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: People see a tortoise in the wild and they think
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: it's okay to just go and pick this poor little
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: animal up. Yeah, I don't think being defenseless. Defenseless yeah,
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: warrants sort of any sort of interaction like that. And
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: I think any sort of any wild animal should be
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: treated as a wild animal, and a panglin especially because
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: it is they are so easily stressed. They are incredibly
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: sensitive little beings. They are emotionally sensitive, mentally sensitive, but
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: also very physically sensitive. So as you said, they do
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: spend most of their time called up in a very
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: well regulated, temperature regulated burrow. Panglins are not great at
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: moderating their body temperature, so though they are nocturnal, they
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: will come out earlier in winter to avoid colder conditions.
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: So you know, if they have a prolonged experience of
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: interaction with someone, say for two hours, where they're not
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: comfortable to actually move, and they remain either lying flat
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: at flat on the ground or rolled up in a ball,
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: those two hours could potentially push that animal into freezing
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: temperatures at midnight. It's either going to make it mad
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: dash for the first burrow it confined and not feed,
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: which has obvious negative effects, or alternatively, it's going to
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: try and get still get in that foraging time and
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: be in freezing cold conditions where it's going to be
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: shivering a lot. That's going to use a lot of energy,
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: and the sort of ripple effect of that is that
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: over a period of time it's just not going to
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: be able to take in enough sustenance, which could have
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: dire effects on it. So, you know, we think a
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: very sort of innocent interaction, yeah, could be quite consequential
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: for the animal itself.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: As you say, even if it's entirely innocent and with
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: the best of intentions from somebody who genuinely wishes panguins well,
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: the potential is that you actually have a very negative
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: impact on them. So, Gareth, how do we manage this
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: in the Bushfelt setting. You spoke about drawing up guidelines
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: to distribute to travel operators to make sure they're aware
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: of the kind of information you've just shared with us.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: What sort of other guidance are you giving them about
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: how to safely experience if you are lucky enough to
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: have that magical moment of seeing a panglin during a
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: game drive, what else are you suggesting?
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: So there are a number of things to consider when
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: seeing it. I mean, a panglin gives very very obvious
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: stress signals. So if a panglin's walking around, it's foraging,
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: it's moving in sort of zigzag patterns, and its nose
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: is very active along the ground, and it's looking for
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: ants and everything, that's not a stressed animal. If a
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: panglin's lying flat on the ground and not moving, that's
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: a stressed animal. If a panglin's rolled up in a ball,
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: that is a very very stressed animal. And our advice
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: is to move away from that animal as quickly as
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: possible and give it as much space as possible. So,
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: you know, I think an important thing is to say
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: that a lot of this is innocent, and there seems
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: to be a bit of a knowledge gap and I
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: don't think people are, especially guides, are going out there
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: with the intention, of course, to cause any harm to
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: the animal, but there is definitely And that's one of
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: the things, you know, that from being able to work
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: with all these animals that we've rescued from the illegal
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: wildlife trade, we're now also getting to see into the
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: world of panglin like we've never before and start seeing behavior,
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: learning about behavior, learning about the individuals and everything like that,
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: and understanding these sort of stress signals and being able
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: to interpret what the animal is trying to tell us
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: when it is stressed. So a lot of it just
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: you know, I think a lot of it is just
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: give it as space, give it its distance, don't infringe
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: on the animal. Whatever you do, do not pick it up,
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: do not go take a sealfie with it, and just
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: respect the animal as you would any other animal.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: Absolutely important in for thank you very quickly. There's a
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: voice note in from Parlo with an important question I think,
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: which we must squeeze in before we wrap up. Let's
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: take a quick listen to that, Hyperpa.
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: It's Spalal from buck Oven. Papa, could you ask your
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: guests about pangolins just about a sort of paradox, which
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: is that there seem to be many many professional game
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: rangers who've never seen a panglin in the wild themselves,
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: and yet the poachers seem to be able to get
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: hold of them so easily. You know, hard does that work?
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: It would be really nice to hear their comments. Thank
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: you so much.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: Such an important question, thanks, Parlo. Important question, Gareth. Do
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: you do you know how are the poachers finding them when,
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: as you've said, they're so loosive, been so difficult to
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: track even by expert wildlife people.
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean basically, you know, as well as
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: a guide might know the area and as might be
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: able to track an area. First of all, you contract
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: a pangulin, they are practically possible to track. In the
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: rural areas You've got, you know, guys out there hurting
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: their sheep, hurting their cows, and those herds boys and
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: the rural people know those areas more intimately than any
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: guide will ever know their reserve that they're working on.
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: Those guys know every single burrow, they know absolutely every
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: single and and net termite mound, all of it. So
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: that's that's how they're finding them. We are seeing it.
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: We are seeing the trade evolved now where they are
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: starting to use dogs to actually track them down. And yeah,
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: I mean it's it's very much a sort of a
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: time thing. I think as well, if you gave any
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: really good guide six months to go find a panglin,
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: there's a very good chance that he would come close
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: or find one.
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: Okay, Gareth, thank you for that, and we have to
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: wrap up here. I want to thank you so much
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: for your input this afternoon, and just to remind listeners
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: that if you want to learn more about pangolins, the
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: group that Gareth is an ambassador for, the African Pangolin
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: Working Group, is a great place to start. This is
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: a whole network of organizations and people who are working
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: towards their survival and their website's got lots of information
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: that is of interest, which is Africanpanglin dot org. And
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: then I want to circle back to our second guest
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: today who's been listening so patiently, and I want no
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: once to just briefly respond to what Gareth said their
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: Lisal fund sale of go to Africa. Thanks for waiting,
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: so Pati.
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: Back to you.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: Thanks. I could listen to this all day. Thanks Papa,
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: Gareth and I just the last thing that Gareth said
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: around the scales and just some of the so as
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: much as that's kind of increased, but the proaching the
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: anti poaching units, which we've seen some of the more
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: advanced ones have started to train their dogs to actually
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: pick up scales, pick up the sense of scales and
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: line bone and rhino horn, et cetera, which is amazing.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: So it's really great to know that as the kind
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: of proaches tactics advance, so the anti poaching tactics are
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: also advancing. But ultimately it's education, right, And as Gareth says,
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: I think for us too, it's just even for me
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: in this process, I've learned so much and I look
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: back on some of my experiences and think, gosh, that
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: could have been handled differently by some of the guides.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: And we look forward to Gareth to working together to
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: facilitate kind of this education across the industry too.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: It's so important, and I love the teamwork that we
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: are seeing happening in this space of people who are
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: all passionate about the same thing, making sure that we
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: save the panglin species that are left. Pulling together, pooling
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: resource helping one another with developing guidelines to make sure
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: that they are interacting with them in the wild. It's
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: done in a responsible manner, so thank you so much
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: to everybody involved in that chain ow Thanks to Gareth Thomas,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: ambassador for the African Pangolin Working Group and if you
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: have not seen the movie he features in Pangolin Kulu's Journey,
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: it is still available to watch on Netflix and I
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: highly recommend that you give it a look. It is
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: just the most beautiful story of how these animals can
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: be saved. Liesel Fanzale, head of Positive Impact at Go
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: to Africa. Thank you for the effort to be ambassadors
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: for positive impact on behalf of this species and a
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: great pleasure to have you with us today as well.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: Prepare and you can visit their website on go to
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: Africa dot com. It's the digit to go to Africa
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: dot com.