Latest / Serious Lady Business / From Surgeon to Startup: A Woman's Bold Pivot to Redefine Healthcare
Transcript
- LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (00:00) Welcome back to Serious Lady Business. I'm Leslie Youngblood, your host and the founder of Youngblood MMC, a marketing media and content agency. And with us today is Dr. Mary O'Connor. Dr. Mary O'Connor, MD is co-founder and chief medical officer of VORI Health, a virtual first company focused on transforming the delivery of musculoskeletal care. She is a professor emerita of orthopedics at Mayo Clinic. and past professor of orthopedics and rehabilitation at Yale School of Medicine. She is a nationally recognized leader in health equity and chair of the board of directors of Movement is Life, a nonprofit organization committed to eliminating health disparities. Her book, Taking Care of You, The Empowered Woman's Guide to Better Health via Mayo Clinic Press, supports women advocating for better healthcare. She's also an Olympian via US Women's Rowing and she's passionate in her promotion of the power of sports to promote health and the development of lifelong skills. Dr. Mary, welcome to Sirius Lady Business. Mary O'Connor MD (01:07) I'm delighted to be with you and thank you for the very kind introduction. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (01:12) mean, those are facts, Dr. Mary. You are incredible. You are a trove of experience, knowledge, and passion for health and advocating for health. And I love what we're going to be talking about today, which is From Surgeon to Startup, a Woman's Bold Pivot to Redefine Health Care. And we're going to talk about how you went from breaking bones to breaking barriers and why we need more women in health care now than ever before. So I kind of want to start the beginning with you, Dr. Mary. After decades at institutions like Mayo Clinic in Yale, like the top of the top, what made you decide that it was time for something new? Mary O'Connor MD (01:57) Well, I realized that the changes that I wanted to make in healthcare, particularly for musculoskeletal care, which is orthopedic and spine care, were going to be very difficult, if not impossible, to implement in the traditional system. And ⁓ yeah, so that's the reason. It's not that the traditional system is full of bad people. It's that it's trapped in a very ⁓ LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (02:18) Hmm. Hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (02:27) bad, non-patient centered, non-health and wellness centered payment model that promotes inappropriate care, inappropriate advanced imaging, lots of MRIs, lots of procedures, lots of surgeries that we know are not always appropriate. like, and why? Because hospitals and healthcare systems, that's how they make their financial margin. And they... LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (02:54) Mm-hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (02:56) And they need that margin to offset what we would call in medicine, the service lines that don't have a chance of breaking even, like pediatrics, like obstetrics. So infectious diseases at the hospital, you have to have an infectious disease doctor that like, there's no way that that is going to break even. if you can't generate a margin, LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (03:02) Hmm. Hmm. Mmm. Mm-hmm. Mmm. Mary O'Connor MD (03:25) then you can't keep your doors open to serve the people in your community. But what we have to remember, this is a riff on a sister generous quote, the last nun who ran Mayo Clinic, no margin, no mission, but no mission, no need for margin. So healthcare is a little different in terms of a business because we really still have to keep the mission at the center of what we're doing. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (03:29) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Hmm. ⁓ Yeah, no doubt. Was there a moment where you knew that it was the system wasn't going to fix itself from inside out because you had spent many years within that system before you stepped out of it? Was there an inflection point for you, Dr. Mary? Mary O'Connor MD (04:10) So when I retired from Mayo after a wonderful career there, I say I carry my Mayo Clinic value, the needs of the patient come first with me. And I retired in 2015 when I was recruited to Yale to go build, they recruited me to build an integrated musculoskeletal center. ⁓ And in that very traditional healthcare system, the challenges were just so many and and the you know we had some success earlier on the pandemic came and basically you know when people are stressed they typically revert to their ⁓ to their pattern of behavior that they do when they're under stress and so that pattern of behavior for all healthcare systems in the pandemic when remember LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (04:58) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (05:08) hospitals were full, full of very sick people, but the hospitals were losing money. And you say, well, why is that? If the hospitals are full, why aren't they making money? Because they weren't full of patients who were paying, who were resulting in a profit margin, okay? Because again, all hospitals and healthcare systems generate their profit margin through elective surgeries. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (05:10) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mmm. Mmm. Yeah. Mary O'Connor MD (05:36) of which orthopedics and spine is a big driver, advanced imaging, MRI scans, and procedures. So it was, you know, we need a lot, it was a focus back on that model and not the model that when I went there to build was let's get patients great non-surgical care first and see if we can get them better without surgery in a more holistic model. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (05:39) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (06:06) And you know what? people need surgery. I'm a surgeon, I know this, right? Some people need surgery. If they do, we're gonna get them to a great surgeon. You know, you don't, if you have chest pain, right, you don't go see a cardiothoracic surgeon as your next stop, right? You go see a cardiologist, right? So we don't have that equivalent, LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (06:09) Mm-hmm. You're right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm. Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (06:36) in musculoskeletal except for, well, there is a specialty physical medicine and rehabilitation, which is the equivalent of that cardiologist, but just it's not well embedded in the system because most patients go from their primary care doc to the surgeon. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (06:36) Mm. Mm. Mm-hmm. Right, right, you get a recommendation from your doctor to go and see that surgeon, right? Generally, is that how it works? Mary O'Connor MD (07:02) Well, yeah, mean, or people, orthopedics is one of the specialties that still has a lot of direct patient ⁓ appointment scheduling. People will directly schedule with an orthopedic surgeon. So ⁓ a lot of primary care doctors, and God bless them, know, they have to know so much about so many diseases and right. ⁓ LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (07:10) Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. to wear. Right? And people. Mary O'Connor MD (07:31) And most of them are just not well trained in spine and orthopedics. So yeah, it's just that they're not comfortable, ⁓ most of them, a lot of them ⁓ managing musculoskeletal conditions. So they refer that patient to the orthopedic surgeon or the spine surgeon. And surgeons do what surgeons do, you know? LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (07:37) Mm. Mm-hmm. Right, right. Mary O'Connor MD (08:00) I've got a hammer, all the world's a nail, and there's a certain bias that we all bring to everything, right? And again, it's just, this is the reality of it. And so, you know, kind of the patient comes into the office to see the surgeon and the question is, do I think you need an operation? Do I think you'd benefit from an operation? If yes, okay. If no, then like, what are you doing in my office? LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (08:03) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right, right. So you probably need surgery, right? More than likely. That from their perspective, it seems like, no, would they? Mary O'Connor MD (08:31) Right. Well, you know the Well, a lot of patients, you know, when we look at the research, what we see is that for low back surgeries, 50 % of those low back surgeries are inappropriate. That's a huge, huge number, Leslie. And it's not just the cost of that first operation. You know, about 7 % of those patients are back in the operating room in the first year. Like it's just huge. And so, LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (08:54) huh. Right. Wow. Mary O'Connor MD (09:08) It's not just the healthcare costs of the surgery and the complications and the risk of another operation. It's the human cost, right, of the risks of the surgery and not everybody gets the outcome that they would like. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (09:14) Right. Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, sure. Mary O'Connor MD (09:31) So yeah, so it's, you know, it's a challenge to try and focus on, can we change the system, which is so embedded, right, in the, in, how medicine is practiced today. So I had the opportunity early in 2021 to leave the security of academia and LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (09:42) Mmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mary O'Connor MD (09:58) go co-found VORI Health ⁓ with Ryan Grant, who's a spine neurosurgeon. And I said, you know what? Why not? Like, what else? What else am I going to do? This is something I'm passionate about, and I like to give it my best shot. So off I went. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (10:01) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Was there any part of you that was like, oh my God, what am I doing leaving this, like the prestige, like you said, of this, you know, traditional healthcare and of the traditional medicine, was there any doubt? Did you wrestle with it? Like how long did it take you to kind of make that decision, Dr. Mary? Mary O'Connor MD (10:40) So, you know, it's very interesting. was unsure. It was such a big decision, right? Big decision. And it was during the pandemic and, I remember exactly, I was home because we weren't, you know, I was going in, I mean, to tell you how bad it was, know, people forget how bad it was. I would go in to the hospital to operate on patients who broke their hips. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (11:01) I, I, yes, it's true. It's bad. Mary O'Connor MD (11:10) And I've done, I don't know, thousands of hip fracture surgeries in the span of my career, right? Because we had shut down all elective surgeries. Hip fractures are not elective. You got to go and you got to operate on these patients and fix them. And the experience of operating on these old people and their loved ones could not be there with them. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (11:15) Mm-hmm. right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mary O'Connor MD (11:39) was so ⁓ tragic. I can't even imagine it. ⁓ Anyway, we're in this pandemic world and I'm trying to decide if I want to make this big change and go boldly into this uncharted territory, which I have no experience with, right? And one of my old leadership coaches called me just to check on me. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (11:42) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sure. Sure. Mary O'Connor MD (12:09) Yeah, which was very kind of her. And I said, well, you know, actually, Maggie, Maggie Carey highly recommend her if anyone needs a leadership coach, especially if you're in medicine. I said, actually, you know, I'm I'm wrestling with this decision. And I explained it to her. And then like all great coaches, with one question, she distilled it down to the essence of the conflict. She said. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (12:21) Love it. Hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (12:38) What are you afraid of? Right? That's question. And I said, you know, I'm not going to make much money. I'm going to go from making surgeon income to startup income, is quite dramatically different. Dramatically different. And I have three children. Now, they're older adults. mean, well, they're adults, but... LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (12:42) Yeah, I mean that hits. Mmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, sure. Mary O'Connor MD (13:11) You know, a couple of them remain on the payroll, as we say. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (13:16) As kids do. As kids do. ⁓ Mary O'Connor MD (13:19) as kids, you know, partially, partially on the payroll. And I was, you know, helping my mother and I, you know, I had, I was the breadwinner, right? So I said, I feel financial pressure. And she said, are you going to be able to pay the bills? I said, yeah, we'll be able to pay the bills. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (13:31) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (13:48) She said, then what's stopping you? And I thought, damn, damn, that's totally right. So then, Leslie, I had the conversation with the children, like, discretionary spending needs to be curbed. But I'm sure that was ineffective. I'm just sharing. That was ineffective. I didn't communicate that one very well. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (13:50) Mmm. Wow. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. You probably did, but their kids, Dr. Marion, as a mother as well, I know how well that probably went over with the kids. Mary O'Connor MD (14:20) Well, you know, I mean, I've my husband and I have always had the attitude like, what is the money for, but not to give your children opportunity and support them and help the people that you love and help others. So anyway, that was my moment when I was like, yep, I have to, I have to decide what I value the most. What I value the most is having, I've always valued is having purpose in my work. Cause I LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (14:30) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Mmm. Mary O'Connor MD (14:49) I like to work. You know, like I don't consider work a bad word, which is good because I work all the time. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (14:55) Right, I agree with you. Right, it's a gift. Yeah, that's a gift when you don't consider work a work and you enjoy it. Yeah, it's a total gift. Mary O'Connor MD (15:04) Right. And you know, it's not that everything that I do every day is enjoyable. There's some mundane stuff I would, but overall I know that my efforts are going towards trying to create a better alternative, a better system, a better process that's ultimately going to help patients and decrease our healthcare costs. Because, you know, when you look at healthcare costs, LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (15:24) Yeah. Yeah. Mary O'Connor MD (15:34) and you see the impact of out-of-pocket expenses to families. It's nuts. Honestly, it's just crazy, right? I look at what one of my children pays for her healthcare insurance. She's like an elite level athlete, super healthy, and the cost for her, you know, when she had to go off of my plan and get her own insurance. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (15:38) Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's obscene. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mary O'Connor MD (16:03) So I'm like, don't know how do working class families afford this? You know? And what happens then is they go without, right? They don't go and do all the physical therapy that they should for their back or knee pain or whatever, because they have a 25 or $40 copay every time they see the physical therapist. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (16:07) Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. True. Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (16:32) And you know, that adds up and that's not nothing to a lot of people and lot of families. So again, like the system, there's a lot of wonderful things about our healthcare system. We have experts, we have, I mean, if you're sick, if you're really sick, I don't think there's hardly any better place for you to get a level of expert care. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (16:37) Mm-hmm. True. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (17:02) but where the system really fails is trying to promote wellness and healthier lifestyles, which is so critical in orthopedics and spine. That's an essential part of non-surgical management. I'll give you an example. If we took people with low back pain, which like 50 % of all American adults at some point have low back pain, right? LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (17:09) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, sure. Mm-hmm. Sure. Mary O'Connor MD (17:32) and I did nothing but improve the quality of their sleep, I would improve their back pain. Okay, so now all these patients go see their doctor or nurse practitioner for back pain and how often does anyone focus on, hey, let's talk about sleep. Can we improve your sleep? Let's talk about an anti-inflammatory diet. Let's talk about, let's talk about, ⁓ LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (17:38) Mmm. Wow. Mm-hmm. brain. Mmm. Mary O'Connor MD (18:01) Increasing your core strength right if we can increase your your abdominal tone. It's going to support your low back better and all these things that combined are going to Really help that patient improve to the point that they wouldn't need surgery Now again not everybody some people LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (18:03) Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's true. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Hopefully. Right. Sure. Some people with it's not worth a try. Right. Isn't it at least worth trying before you go down that route though. Right. Mary O'Connor MD (18:30) We think so. And so that's why, you know, we created the company, which is a ⁓ telemedicine virtual first digital care company. So our patients come and interact with us on a video platform, you know, just like we're doing. We have had the opportunity to innovate that interaction. In fact, I just presented this paper a couple of days ago at the American Telemedicine Association meeting. So. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (18:43) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (18:59) So we took our initial evaluation and we said, you know, it's so important to have the doctor and the physical therapist evaluating the patient and being aligned with what the diagnosis and treatment plan should be. And we are unique in the virtual musculoskeletal space because we're an actual medical practice. So we have doctors. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (19:13) Mmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (19:27) And why you need a doctor, you need a doctor because the doctor can give you a diagnosis. The doctor can order medicine if you need it, order imaging if you need it, which we order imaging, not all the time, but sometimes it's appropriate. So the physical therapist will give you the functional diagnosis. So in our model, we innovated that first visit and said, let's have... LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (19:33) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (19:52) the doctor and the physical therapist together with the patient on the video visit. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (19:56) Yeah. ⁓ Mary O'Connor MD (19:59) Right, a simple concept. Now, you're the patient. You only have to tell your story once. Right, the doctor can ask questions, the physical therapist can ask questions. You do one virtual physical exam, which is actually, people are skeptical about it. It's surprisingly effective. You can do a lot in terms of the physical exam through the video interaction. And then, LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (20:12) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (20:26) The doctor says, here's the medical diagnosis, the physical therapist, here's your functional diagnosis, a treatment plan. And then we get you set up, you know, for your, your home exercises on our platform with our AI supported sensorless motion tracking technology. And you have follow-up visits with the physical therapist. Maybe you'll benefit from a health coach if we think that you need some, you know, lifestyle support. And then. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (20:38) Mm-hmm. Amazing. Mary O'Connor MD (20:54) We can also pull in a registered dietitian if needed. You need more advanced nutritional support than what the health coach can provide. it's very like you'd be, I don't think anyone else does that. I'm pretty confident nobody else does it. And it's exciting because our patients in our research study where we survey patients, ⁓ LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (20:56) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Wow. Mm-hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (21:24) overwhelmingly positive. It saved them time. It helped them start their treatment plan faster. the question, the response that I was most pleased about was so many of them, the percent, almost 90 percent, felt that it increased the confidence in their understanding of their medical condition and how to start treating it. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (21:27) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Mary O'Connor MD (21:54) Okay? Medicine, you you have that small amount of time that you're with your doctor. Your doctor's speaking this language of medicine. You're trying to absorb it and understand it. It's hard. mean, even... LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (22:00) Sure. And trying to remember what you wanted to talk to them about too, they're asking, or your health history or what you've been through the past six months. You're like, I don't remember. It's overwhelming. ⁓ Mary O'Connor MD (22:16) Even when I go to the doctor myself, and if I'm going to see somebody and they're not anywhere close to orthopedics, they're speaking an entirely different language. And I'm trying to remember, okay, in medical school I learned this. So for somebody that is a world different, it's hard. It's hard for patients to retain all that. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (22:25) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mary O'Connor MD (22:44) I found that to be so powerful and impactful that patients felt it helped them. They had more confidence in understanding their problem and how to start treating it. Like, wow, okay. Well, that kind of stuff, that like pumps me up. know, that's like, okay, I am living my vision, my purpose. So, yeah. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (22:48) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think that comes back to how we were talking about the healthcare system, it needs to be more collaborative and the old system is not built that way. Why have we resisted that for so long, Dr. Mary? why? Because of the money, because of the bottom line. Mary O'Connor MD (23:23) Because of the money, because of the money, because of the way the system, because of the way the payment model worked, where what we call fee for service in the fee for service world, right? The doctor gets paid for every visit, the hospital gets paid for every operation. If you get a complication and you have to be readmitted, the hospital gets paid for that. So there's a financial incentive for this. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (23:32) Mmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm-hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (23:53) Yeah, that helps ⁓ promote over utilization of services. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (23:55) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, sure. One thing too about VORI Health, it improves access to specialty care for underserved populations. Why was that a non-negotiable for you with VORI Health? Mary O'Connor MD (24:16) So we know, and I've been engaged in ⁓ trying to decrease health disparities for a long time. I have chaired Movement is Life, which you kindly mentioned in the intro. Since 2010, we're a national nonprofit specifically focused in the ⁓ movement musculoskeletal space. Here's why movement is so important. ⁓ LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (24:38) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (24:43) to all your listeners out there, if there's one thing they remember, here's what I want them to remember. When we get joint pain, which is so common, ⁓ then we decrease our level of physical activity. With that decrease in physical activity, we typically don't change our eating patterns and we gain weight. That added weight puts more pressure on our joints and also... LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (25:04) . Mm-hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (25:08) creates what we would call a pro-inflammatory metabolic environment in your body, which is bad for your joints as well. So what happens? Your joint pain increases. Then you just become less active. You gain more weight. So now you're in this vicious cycle. Okay? That's not the only thing that happens though, because with the immobility and the obesity come the development of heart disease, high blood pressure, LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (25:16) Mm-hmm. Sure. Mmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (25:38) diabetes and depression. So now we have a very sick person who has impaired functional mobility. Their joints are bad, they have pain and they're sick with all these other things. anyone and the key to breaking that whole vicious cycle is movement. Movement keeps your joints healthy, it helps you keep your weight down, it's good for your heart, it's good for your blood sugar, your blood pressure. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (25:56) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Mary O'Connor MD (26:08) It's good for depression, it's good for everything. Anybody can get trapped in that vicious cycle, right? The affluent white male CEO can get trapped in it. But it's more likely that women, individuals of color, those in rural America, those with lower socioeconomic backgrounds are gonna get trapped in that cycle because of the LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (26:10) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (26:37) the social determinants of health that impact the ability for you to not get trapped in it. If you live in a food desert, right? It's harder for you to get fresh fruits and vegetables. And do know that in those food deserts, those grocery stores, the cost of those fresh fruits and vegetables will be higher than in the same grocery store chain in the affluent neighborhood? It's shocking to LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (26:44) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Hmm. That's crazy. Yeah, that is shocking. Mary O'Connor MD (27:07) It's shocking. so one of the things about VORI is because anybody who has a smartphone that has internet can access us. And particularly in rural America, access to specialty care, because we're a specialty medical practice, is very challenging. And when people think about health disparities, LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (27:19) You Yeah. Mmm. Mm-hmm. Sure. Mary O'Connor MD (27:35) I think there's a tendency for us to think that it's all about, you know, poor people in the inner city. And there are very bad disparities there. Don't get me wrong. I'm not minimizing that. But we've heard that these disparities extend out into rural America and there's lots and lots of disparities there as well. it's being able to provide access to help people across LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (27:42) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. short. Mm-hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (28:04) you know, a broad geography and broad socioeconomic spectrum. So, you know, that's meaningful to me. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (28:06) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely. I agree. Now, I'd like to talk about how you being a female in an industry, health care leadership being overwhelmingly male. I would love to hear your experience ⁓ and what changes when more women come in and build and lead in this space, what that looks like and why it's needed. Mary O'Connor MD (28:40) ⁓ Leslie, I'm going to tell a story. have this in one of my talks. ⁓ So when I first finished my residency and fellowship, I was going to buy a new car, like the first new car I ever bought, right? As opposed to like use cars or hand me down cars from the family. As we do. I had two children at the time. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (28:59) Love that. Sure. Of course. As we do. Mary O'Connor MD (29:09) My son, our second child, was like nine months old. So I decided that I wanted to go buy the safest car I could afford. And airbags had just come out. Passenger side airbags had just come out. And there were only two cars at the time that carried passenger side airbags. Mercedes and an Acura, their top trim line in the Acura. So I said, I'm gonna go buy an Acura. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (29:24) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (29:38) Which I did. I bought this ad specifically for the passenger side airbag. Did I know at the time that that first generation airbag was going to kill children, women, small men? No. No, fortunately, never, it never did. I never had any issues. weren't in any accidents, et cetera. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (29:44) Mm-hmm. Mmm. Sure. Mary O'Connor MD (30:05) So now if you say, how could that possibly happen? Did Detroit invest millions and millions of dollars to create a safety device, the passenger side airbag, knowing that it was gonna kill children, women, and small men? Of course not. That's ridiculous. Of course not. Were the engineers who designed it incompetent? No, they were well trained, okay? LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (30:09) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (30:34) And they start out thinking we're going to create this defective safety device. So then you say, how in the hell could this airbag tragedy, how could this colossal mistake happen? LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (30:37) Right. No. Mary O'Connor MD (30:49) there weren't very many women on the design team. So what if there had been more women on that team? What if there was a woman on that team that said, what happens if my baby's in the front seat? Or my four-year-old child? What happens? And that was never tested. No one ever looked at that. And that's why we had the airbag tragedy. And this is why you need diversity on your teams. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (31:01) Mm-hmm. Yeah. This is... Hmm. Yeah. Mary O'Connor MD (31:19) You need diversity of perspectives and experiences, because then somebody's going to think to ask, what happens when my baby's in the front seat? It's not just sex. It's diversity of sex. It's diversity of gender. It's diversity of race, ethnicity, and culture. All of these, because I can only bring to the table me and my life experiences. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (31:23) Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (31:48) I don't look at diversity from the lens that it's just about sex or race ethnicity. I look at it, which is still very important, right? Because women are different than men. Okay. I mean, those guys that were designing the airbags, were some of them fathers? Probably. Why didn't you think of the question? LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (31:55) Mm-hmm. Sure. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sure. Mm-hmm. Sure, right? Mm-hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (32:15) I don't know why anybody, I don't know why no one thought of the question, but no one thought of it. A colossal mess, okay? So fathers didn't think of the question. Would a woman that was a mother think of the question? I think it would have been more likely. Again, this is why having other people with diverse backgrounds at the table is so critical. It will make your team stronger, you will make better decisions. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (32:17) Right, colossal-ness. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (32:45) you'll be more likely to avoid the airbag tragedy. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (32:49) Right, right, definitely. It seems like a no-brainer, truly, right? And so hopefully our audience, again, that's a great example of why it's so important for that and why healthcare needs more of that, right? And what advice would you give to women who are thinking maybe about, that might be in healthcare, that might be in another field, that might be seeing something that is, they're like, this is messed up or this. this is broken and wants to pivot, maybe wants to start their own thing, but is scared or unsure, what advice would you give them, Dr. Mary? Mary O'Connor MD (33:32) You know, I think one of the most important things, ⁓ and I'll speak specifically to women in healthcare, particularly in medicine doctors, most of us get out of medical school with a huge amount of debt. There are some medical schools now that are no tuition, but you may still have, you know, other costs, room, board, books, things like that. But there's a lot of debt when you get out of medical school. I mean, LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (33:46) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (34:01) in a long time, but I had $200,000 of debt when I finished. That, which back then was even, right? That's, that was a lot of, it's even a lot of money today, but back then it was even more money. The first couple years, I worked diligently on paying down my loans, the highest interest rate. I mean, like it was the focus, right? We're going to get the loans paid off. And then, LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (34:06) Wow. Yeah, right, Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (34:32) You know, we bought, I'll call it the starter house first. were paying off the loans and then we bulldozed that and built the new house, which is where I'm not writing. But my point is, get out of debt. If you are in debt, you will not be able to pivot as well. Like the only reason. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (34:36) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mmm. Mmm. Mary O'Connor MD (34:56) I could make that decision to dramatically cut my income, even though all these people depended on me, right? It was because I didn't have debt. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (35:02) Right. Right, mm-hmm, yes. Mary O'Connor MD (35:07) Right? So, so recognize that debt ⁓ keeps you, it holds you to your current, you're trapped. Right? And the sooner that you are debt free, the more freedom that you have to make other decisions. So that would be my, if there's one, the second thing for people to remember, for anybody, right? It's like, LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (35:17) Trap. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (35:38) try to get out of debt. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (35:39) Yeah, that's so true. When I left corporate position, my last corporate position, and I didn't know what I was going to do next. I was like, well, maybe I'll get another one. Maybe I'll start my own thing. I'm not sure. But what afforded me that privilege to walk away without a plan was that we weren't in debt and we could still pay our bills and I could like go and make. And so it gives you the freedom to walk away from something that's not serving you the way that you want it to, to start something new that you're that could work or might not work, right? And so I completely agree where, you know, money is a tool for freedom and you don't want to to trap yourself in a bad situation if you can help it. And if you are, because it happens to all of us, to get out of it, whether you're looking to start your own business or looking to continue on with your current job, that's essential. So I completely relate to that. Yeah. Mary O'Connor MD (36:33) Yeah, I mean, there would have been times in my career that I wouldn't have been able to pivot, right? But the sooner that you can be in a financial position where you have that flexibility, the more opportunity and options you create for yourself. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (36:39) Mm, mhm. ⁓ Mhm. Mm-hmm. Yes, definitely, definitely. Now, Dr. Mary, what do you think about the future of healthcare 10 to 20 years from now? What's the change that you hope the most that for health sparks? Mary O'Connor MD (37:08) I hope the change that we spark is really bringing healthcare back to a more holistic patient-centered approach where we're not just looking at somebody who's back pain or knee pain. We're looking at Leslie, right? And one of the things that we do, which isn't a new concept, but I love that we apply it, is when patients come in, LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (37:24) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (37:37) We want to know what matters to you, not just what is the matter with you. right? You have knee pain. Yeah, that's not my original concept that's been out there, but like, why does that matter? You come to us because you have knee pain, but why does that matter to you? Well, you want to run a 5K. You have a plan to run a 5K with your daughter in four months. And now you're concerned that that's not going to happen. So our whole... LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (37:42) Mmm. I love that. Mm-hmm. Mmm. Mm-hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (38:07) care plan for you is to get you able to run that 5k. Now in order to do that, we need to address your knee pain, right? But maybe we need to talk about an anti-inflammatory diet, help you sleep better. I mean, like, like the focus isn't just your knee. It's, it's your 5k because that is what brings you joy. That's what matters to you. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (38:16) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Brain. You. Yeah. Right. Mary O'Connor MD (38:37) The more that we can tap into keeping you focused on that, the more engaged you're going to be, the more likely you're going to be to do your exercises and the things that are going to help you get better. Right? Yeah. Yeah. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (38:45) Yeah. So true. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love that. Dr. Mary, any other final takes or anything, advice that you'd like to share with our listeners out there before we wrap up today? Mary O'Connor MD (39:01) ⁓ I would say to the women that are listening in particular, like do not be afraid to advocate for yourself in the healthcare setting. can't tell you how many women I've taken care of in the span of my career who had seen one of my male orthopedic surgeon and they come to me, they've had a problem after surgery and ⁓ LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (39:13) Mmm. Mm-hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (39:31) It's just like, well, what did your surgeon say? Well, he didn't listen to me. He didn't want to listen to me. First of all, if you feel like your doctor's not listening to you and I don't care who you are, right? That's not the right healthcare clinician for you. The number one, number one. And in particular, I can't tell you how many times I heard, well, I heard he was such a good surgeon technically. And his bedside manner was terrible, but I didn't, I don't care about his bedside manner. I don't know. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (39:45) Right. mmmm Hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (40:00) You don't care about his bedside manner until you have an issue and you realize that he won't listen to you. Then you have an issue and you don't have to settle for that. Like do settle for that. Go find somebody that you're comfortable with because you need to trust this person. You know, operating on somebody like cutting into them in me being like inside their body is a huge privilege. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (40:03) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yum. Yum. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (40:30) Right? And LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (40:31) Mm-hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (40:31) for patients to trust me to do that. Now, I'm not personally operating anymore since I started VORI, but if you think about it, that is just a level of trust. And you should be completely comfortable with your surgeon or your doctor or whoever, because that trust is needed for you to get the best outcome. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (40:34) Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, yes. I agree. I believe the statistics, so I'm on the advisory board for a new app that's in development called Fox Health, and its premise is that it's designed for women to be better advocates for their health, but to understand more and have that education to know what to go in and talk to the doctor, because I believe it's 93 % of women have felt brushed off by a health professional in their life. 93 %! And even when they, oh! Mary O'Connor MD (41:00) So yeah, that's what I would say. Yeah. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (41:29) yay, and taking care of you. Mary O'Connor MD (41:31) I had this prop up under my laptop to be a little higher, but I pulled it out. So this is my book with my co-author, Kendall Hawke, right? And yeah, it's basically 55 common medical conditions, how they impact women differently. And we don't focus on the bikini areas. People tend to think about women's health as, you know, LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (41:33) Amazing! I love it. so important. you Mary O'Connor MD (41:55) skinny areas, right, breast health, reproductive health. There's lots and lots of conditions that impact women differently because remember, every cell in our body has a sex. Every cell has a sex and our sex does not change. So you, so we know heart disease is a perfect example. Women LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (41:58) Mmm, mhm. Yes. Hmm, fascinating. Hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (42:24) For small vessel disease in the heart, small vessel disease is more common for women. standard, kind of standard heart tests won't necessarily pick that up. So heart disease is a perfect example of why not only do clinicians need to be educated about sex differences, but patients need to be educated too. So the woman who goes in, LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (42:29) Hmm. Hmm. Mm. Hmm. Mary O'Connor MD (42:51) saying, you know, I don't know, it's a chest pain and digestion, doesn't allow this to get blown off. Somebody listens to her and takes her seriously. So it's really important. ⁓ anyway, I had to put a plug in for the book because it's... LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (42:52) Mm-hmm. Mmm. Mmm. Mmm-hmm. Yum. Right, right. Yeah, no, I love that. And we'll also include the link to your book in the show notes. think anything that can help you be a better advocate for your health as a woman, a minority, as anyone. Like I just had a quote where was like, nobody's coming to tap you on the shoulder. And there's so much that needs to change in the system. But right now, like there's also, it's up to us too, to advocate for ourselves. So I think, ⁓ I encourage everybody to read that book and I hope anybody that's listening to Dr. Mary, please share too, where they can find you. to learn more, to connect with you and all those good things. Mary O'Connor MD (43:40) ⁓ Well, VORI Health, V-O-R-I health.com. That's our website. I'm on LinkedIn. You can find me on LinkedIn. My name, Mary O'Connor. ⁓ And, you know, happy to help support any ⁓ young ⁓ entrepreneurs out there. I certainly don't consider myself an expert, ⁓ but happy to share anything more about my journey that might help others. And, you know. Thank you for the opportunity to be on Serious Lady Business. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (44:13) That's right. Very serious. Seriously, good stuff in this conversation. Thank you so much, Dr. Mary. It was a pleasure to connect with you today. And I can't wait for everybody to listen in and be inspired by you as I am. And I hope ⁓ everybody listening joins us again soon. This has been Serious Lady Business. I'm Leslie Youngblood. We'll see you next time.