Latest / Coach Speak The Return / Episode 5 Jamison Webster Adrian College

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Episode 5 Jamison Webster Adrian College · Coach Speak The Return

• Matt Seidl: Hello everybody and welcome back to the pod. I'm Matt Seidel. That's Josh Trope to my left or right, depending on how you're looking at it. And we are excited to be joined by new Adrian College men's basketball coach Jameson Webster. Jameson, welcome and and how are things out in Lenaway County? Jamison Webster: Yeah, good morning guys. Thanks for having me. you know, we were out to a great start. numbers are great. we were able to retain nineteen guys from the program last year. We brought in eighteen guys in a short amount of time. So we've got thirty seven guys in the program and we've had a great preseason. Guys have been working really hard in the weight room. throughout their study tables we've been organizing organized open gyms from the team captains kinda leading the way with our expectations that we have set. And then we've just got into our eight preseason practices. We're have four of those completed and really feel like we're moving in the right direction, getting the base things on both sides of the ball taken care of to where we should be in a pretty good spot come October fifteenth after those eight are all done and and it's full go from there. So really good start from from our guys within our program so far. Matt Seidl: You sound like a couple of our high school programs out in this area. I already had eight preseason practices in before November, but you know, Josh, Jamison Webster: Yeah. Matt Seidl: what are you laughing about? No, I'm just kidding. so before before we get into more ageering college stuff, Jameson. tell us a little bit about how hard it was to step away from Tecumseh after what seven seasons, I believe, right? And man, a really great four-year run, not to take anything away from the other three seasons, but I think you guys were like fifty nine and twenty seven over four years, you won a district, you won a league title. But how hard was that stepping away from those kids and families? Jamison Webster: Yeah, it was hard, you know. they had the belief in me as an outsider to give me a chance at such a young age and, you know, I'll always have a great appreciation for for John Zajak and the staff over there and all the families that, you know, I was fortunate to work with over the seven years there. And you know, the thing that I'll give them the most credit for is all those kids, they were so receptive to coaching. And you know, they really bought into how we wanted to do things and That's a credit to them because if they wouldn't have, we wouldn't have had the success that we were able to sustain for a a period of time there. and you guys know both you guys have been very successful at many stops in your guys' coaching career. And when when you have somewhere you you've poured so much time into and and you've built it up, you take a lot of pride in that and you know, stepping away from that was difficult. But, you know, the next step and phase and kind of climbing the ladder in my journey, It just seemed to be the right fit with being in my hometown and my alma mater. So it was tough, but at the same time they were very understanding and and excited about the opportunity that was presented to me. Josh: Well, Jameson, you know, as you can notice I got the shirt and tie on today. That that's for two reasons. One of it is for you. I often I mean you you're obviously a brilliant young coach, and and there's no question about that, and I mean that sincerely. I've always been incredibly impressed with you, both the w how hard you get kids to play, your defensive concepts, and early on in your career, nobody ran better sets. I mean, I was stealing your stuff all the time, and but The b I also refer to you as the best dress coach in the state of Michigan, without a doubt. You're so I I felt like for two reasons today. One for you, and and later on the pod, I'll explain my second reason. But I thought I should at least wear a shirt and tie today. Jamison Webster: Yeah. Josh: you know, I I got I gotta represent the the Webster family. I your dad's even a better dress coach, if we're gonna be honest. But Jamison Webster: No, yeah, he still rocks the suits, if you can believe it. Josh: I I I do believe it. I mean, yeah, I give a lot of credit. So especially in an era where most coaches are coaching in a quarter zip and tennis shoes. So yeah. Jamison Webster: Yes, yes. And I I've gone both ways with it, you know, so I you know, I kinda like the more relaxed look now so I can move on the sidelines. Josh: Yeah, yeah, you're active on the sidelines, so it had to be tough in the the suit for sure. So I My question and before I get to it is I I just want to let you know that I'm hearing incredible things from the families and the players that I know on the program. Some of the the dads of players there and and just the kids, the text messages I get, just how much they love your energy, your enthusiasm, you know, the direction of the program. you know, you know, and to hear that from guys that have are just getting going and and parents in the program, I just I thought it would be good for you to hear that. I think a lot of times as coaches we hear the negative things. So I I wanted you to hear that and you mentioned you're in the middle of your eight preseason practices and you start October 13th. what would you say is going well and what has it been a struggle to this point? And then the last thing, what would be an eye-opening moment you've had so far? Jamison Webster: You know, the biggest eye opening moment I would say is how much energy these guys bring. I've never once in my career practiced with thirty seven guys in the gym at the same time. But, you know, I I told myself we were gonna do that because they were gonna allow themselves to figure out which team they were gonna be on. I felt that to be the fairest route to go with it, rather than bringing guys in and not really having a good understanding of what team they should be on. So we we've been practicing the first four practices with everybody in the gym and the amount of energy they bring and the amount of coaches we have. So a lot of times I've been able to really sit back and watch the coaches coach these guys in the stations and observe a lot more, which has been great. The the toughest or the struggle for for me has been the first two practices we started out great. You guys know how it goes. Early in the year those praxes, everybody wants to practice. The back two are still really good that we've had, but it's kind of been a slow start. So myself as a coach, I gotta figure out okay, was it a drill that we did early on? Was it a drill we did for four straight days that they kinda okay, here comes that drill again and they didn't have the same kind of intensity to attack that drill. So now these next four practices I have to figure out, you know, and do a better job of how can we get out to a strong start because I re relayed that to them as, hey fellas, we came out slow and now we're down six nothing. So we have to pick it back up, finish practice strong, which we did. But you know, with that many guys we we have to keep things moving in practice, which I think we have done at a great pace. you know, a few of our practices have been three hours and they've flown by. It's like, wow, that was Josh: Wow. Jamison Webster: a quick three hours. But we've got seven coaches in there really working with different groups and You know, I'm a big like let's not walk to anything kind of thing, even to go get water. So it's been fast pace and guys have been receptive to pick up on how we want to go about things. Josh: Nice. Matt Seidl: Well with with thirty seven guys I I hope you have a staff. And I I can't I was talking to Josh about this before you came on. I can't remember if it was you or Jordan Kelly, but one of you guys came to Pinckney recently and I had to get like five extra chairs because your staff was so big. I I I think it's Jamison Webster: Yeah, that's I had I had an assistant that that was kinda in charge of that. I said, Listen, you you know going into all these opposing schools they're not gonna have enough chairs so just be ready. Yeah. Yeah, yeah yeah. Matt Seidl: And we put fifteen chairs out. You guys needed like twenty two or something for everybody. but t tell us about your the staff you've built at at Adrian College. And obviously you better have some help with thirty seven guys potentially in the gym at one time, but Jamison Webster: Yeah, I've been really fortunate over the years to have guys that wanna help out. And you know, that's that's a really big thing. You know, I I feel like, you know, I treat my guys, my coaches the right way and I give them a lot of responsibility and that that makes them wanna continue to help me out. So I feel blessed. we'll start with my brother, Justin Webster. He's been with me for the past four years. He's really taken over the defensive side of the ball, so he does a great job at getting our guys to compete to the level that that's expected and really breaks down the game plan with me and what we're gonna do and then takes that into practice and really correlates it well and breaks it down to the guys to make sure they're all on the same page for each opponent coming up. Scott McKelvy, he was with Adrian the last four or five seasons, but before his time there he was with me for a season at Tecumsey. So we really worked well together. we we grew a really close relationship and a bond and He's somebody I've really respected over the years as he's been a very successful high school coach here in Lenaway County for 20 plus years as well. So we've kept him on staff and he's coaching the offensive side. He's done a great job with that. He's really excited, and he he's a brilliant guy when it comes to the X's and O's and putting our guys in the right positions to be successful. Brandon Schmidt, another guy that's been with me for the past four seasons. just a great guy, glue guy, coach, you know how all about Brandon. He's just Josh: Yeah. Great guy. Jamison Webster: he's an excellent guy and he's a do any kind of thing for you kind of guy. So he's kind of the special teams coach. He takes care of the baseline outs and the side outs and he's assisted my brother a little bit with the defensive side. So he's been a guy that's been around and I've really built a great relationship with him. So we've added him. Steve Dunn, he comes from Decumsey as well. the last five seasons he was my freshman coach, did a great job. he's been a lifelong friend as well, so somebody I can trust. He's gonna take the developmental team, he's gonna be the head coach of those guys and really orchestrate and get those guys prepared to, if needed, plug and play with somebody who's playing really well down there and we want to give him a chance on varsity, have them ready to go. we also have John Jonathan Duvall, he's my full-time assistant. he was a volunteer assistant on the staff last year. he's he's been he's an alumni as well. He graduated four years ago, played for the program. Since then he's kind of worked in different departments at Adrian College. So he has a good sense of what's going on behind the scenes with a lot of those little things that, you know, I'm still learning on. So he helps with that. He helps with a lot of the recruiting, breaking down stuff. And his biggest thing in the season is gonna be getting the scout team and coaching them up and And having them ready to go against the rotational pieces and practice every day. And then we have Aaron Bernard, he's rounds out our coaching staff. He's just kinda just strictly deals with recruiting. So he has a great recruiting base around the state of Michigan with a lot of coaches and people he he's grown relationships with over the years. So yeah, total of seven guys and really feel like I'm fortunate because we all you know, have the same goals and really get along. Have the sense that we want to work together to get it done. Matt Seidl: Cool. Josh: Very impressive staff. I mean, I know Matt Seidl: Mm. Josh: a lot of those guys. And and yeah, I mean Brandon's not that impressive, but everybody else is. I'm I'm j I I'm joking. I'm joking. Brandon was on my staff when we won the state title Jamison Webster: Yeah, yeah. Josh: pilot. Yeah, yeah. No, I love Brandon. I'm just teasing. But no, it's an impressive staff. I I'm more impressed though with you that one that you have the confidence, and not only the confidence, but the ability to have that big of a staff and and give them such defining roles. I mean, it it sounds like to me, I mean, it's almost like a football program where you're you're the head coach, you know, that that's gonna you know, you you're making all the decisions ultimately, but you've really given them roles and and added value to them being a part of it, which is really cool. So Jamison Webster: Yeah, I think that's, you know, a big part of it. Like th th these guys know the game of basketball. So like I told them, if I'm not allowing you guys to coach, then, you know, I'm not getting the most out of you guys. So like I said, I trust these guys and we talk as a staff before every practice every day, kinda go through the script of what we want to do and how we wanna do it and they're on the same page and then they just take it and run and and they just coach their tails off. So, you know, really excited with what they've done so far. Josh: Nice. I'm gonna I'm gonna jump around here a little bit because I'm questions are popping into my head as as you're talking and stuff. Quick question. W you said you talked before practice. What does practice time look like for you? I know at the small college level when I was at Spring Arbor, it was tough to get a consistent practice time. What what does practice times look like you've like cause I know you got, you know, one gym and one aux gym, but only one hardwood floor, things like that. Jamison Webster: Yeah, so we we never practice in the aux gym. We always practice on the hardwood floor. you know, we've really got our practice time set between three different times. We're either four to six PM, six to eight PM, or in the morning from five thirty to seven thirty. And that works Josh: Okay. Jamison Webster: well because you know, we lift at eight AM. Most of our guys don't have an eight AM class, so there's no interference there. And most of our guys are done with class by two, three o'clock. So once volleyball is done here in a couple of weeks. We'll just kind of flop and balance it with women's basketball. If they're going four to six, then we'll take the six to eighth slot. So Josh: Nice. Jamison Webster: it really hasn't been that big of a juggle. It's it's actually easier than to Matt Seidl: Yeah. Jamison Webster: at Tecumseh because Tecumseh we had more basketball teams in the Matt Seidl: Yeah. Jamison Webster: winter with Josh: Ha ha Jamison Webster: you know, freshmen and J V varsity than girls, and it's like, you know, so I'm used to having to juggle that with only one gym. So it's it's kind of been easier in a sense so far at AC. Josh: Nice. Okay. go ahead, Matt. Matt Seidl: You know, so you're going into obviously the conference, which you're familiar with, I double A. you know, Calvin, Hope, and Trine seem to be the the big three, at least you know, over if you take a a big chunk of time. Olivet won it last year. Albion it's been in the conversation, you know, a periodically over time. Adrian has not in a while, at least you know, in recent history. Is that a goal for you guys to all of a sudden the be a top half team regularly and contend for a MIAA title and how soon can you do that? Jamison Webster: Yeah, like I tell everyone, if that's not the goal, then we're doing something wrong. And that goes for every phase in life. If you're not trying to be great and try to be the best at something, then you're honestly just wasting your time. And we talk about doing everything at a championship level and we want to be elite. And you know, there's three things that I preach to the guys every day. It's like, hey fellas, if we can come in with a great effort, great attitude, and great focus, then a lot of those other things will take care of themselves. So th they've really started to buy into that. And I think More so now than ever. I mean, you look at the transfer portal, you look at how Indiana football did it, I think it's easier now than ever to to get to the top. I mean you look at all of that, they came out of nowhere. You know, I Josh: Yep. Jamison Webster: think the year before last year they had single digit wins and then Coach Hargraves did a really good job, found pieces that really fit what he wanted to do, and then then next thing you know, they win the league. So I I think we're, you know, in that similar situation to where we found three guys in the portal that are gonna be seniors this year for us. They really fit how we want to play. And we really believe that they're gonna have big years for us. now does that result in us winning the league? I don't know, but you know what I can tell you is our program's gonna expect to win every night just through the preparation and the way we work. Now, you know, I tell these guys all the time you're not always gonna win everything in life, but if you continue to position yourself and do the right things, you know, more times than not, you'll end up on the right side of things. So we're just really trying to focus on ourselves, do the right things and the and the championship habits every day that we touch on. And we really feel like at the end of the season we can reflect no matter where we finish at in the league and be happy with the result. So just trying to focus on us and we feel that'll get us into the top third of the league as time goes on. Matt Seidl: Nice. Josh: I have one more follow-up if that's all right, Matt. Matt Seidl: Yeah, go ahead. Josh: Yep. So earlier you talked about 37 guys on the roster. First off, the president and the school must love you because anything over 30 is beautiful Jamison Webster: Yeah. Josh: and they're making a lot of money. So you're doing a great job there, obviously. And you did have a great recruiting cycle from what I saw, you know, especially getting the job so late. you know, people don't realize how hard it is to be a D3 coach because you're expected to carry huge rosters to pay the bills and things like that. My question is is what is your plan for that big? Because that's almost enough. I mean, I that's more guys than I'll have at three levels in my high school program. Jamison Webster: Yeah. Josh: So what what what's kind of the plan right now? And I know it might change, but what's the plan right now? Jamison Webster: You know, Frank Rebar, Vice President, has talked about starting a club team. There's we Josh: Okay. Jamison Webster: have four club teams for hockey, baseball's got club now, volleyball's got club, so fifty-three different sport teams at Aider in college, they continue to add, you know, club teams and keep guys playing, keep student athletes playing 'cause at the end of the day that's what they want to do. We're close to that. but I think we're gonna be able to make it work to where we're gonna dress twenty to twenty two guys on our varsity. every night and then probably have fifteen on that J V. So with our style of play though, we're we're gonna be getting in especially the varsity ten, eleven guys every night. Our you know, our developmental team probably play a little bit more than that, twelve, thirteen, fourteen guys. So you know, it it's been eye opening for me to see and not have anybody kind of step away. Like we've really practiced hard this preseason. I and I honestly thought we were gonna lose guys. Josh: Yeah. Jamison Webster: And they just keep all coming back. They're a great group of young men. it's gonna be difficult. We're gonna have those one on one meetings coming up here after the eight practices are completed to kind of set teams and say, hey, you're gonna be going this route, this is where we see ya. so we we may lose a couple kids when it comes to that, but you know, I think we really finish the season all the way out with at least thirty-two, thirty-three guys. So that's kind of the plan, dressing around twenty on the varsity. And around fifteen down at the J V and have have teams split that way. Josh: Makes sense, yeah. Matt Seidl: Cool. Well, coach man, we appreciate you coming on. I I I will I gotta ask you, and if you want me to pass a message along to Kyle O'Donohue at Pinkney or Derek Seidel at Napoleon. Hopefully Jace Carlson and Tyler Null are representing their programs well. If not, just blame the coaches. Don't blame the kids. But hopefully Jamison Webster: No. No, they are. They're completely Josh: Hey, listen, Jamison Webster: on that. Josh: if if Tyler played for Derek, he he's not gonna know how to guard, I'll tell you that. So you'll have you'll have to teach him Jamison Webster: Yeah, no, they've been working hard and you know, that goes for almost every single it's it we've gotten to this point where we are through the leadership that we've brought back and these guys really like each other. They they truly do. They've they've gone through some hard practices, but they hang out with each other all the time. And we had a nice tailgate yesterday for the homecoming football game. A lot of the a lot of the families came back of parents of that got guys on the team, so Those things are big to do outside of just coaching, you guys know that. And you know, it's a it's a lot easier staying within a program when it's a positive environment rather than a negative environment. So we've definitely got that going and super excited for the season. Matt Seidl: Well again, thanks thanks for coming on. we will be we're excited for you and we'll be we'll be following the Bulldogs this this season. Jamison Webster: All right, appreciate it guys. Thanks for having me on. Have great day. Matt Seidl: All right, man. Take Josh: Thanks. Matt Seidl: care. That was good. I think I think he's gonna do a good job. Hopefully he can Josh: Yes. Matt Seidl: he can hick us some success early. So Josh: Yeah, I'm impressed. He's he's very impressive. And yeah, great staff. yeah. Yep, great energy. Matt Seidl: Yeah, I you know, I I wasn't even aware of who all those guys were, but then when you started naming off the names, yeah, that is a he's always had an impressive high school staff, but Josh: Yeah. Matt Seidl: college able to bring a few of those guys on. So all right, well hey, we're gonna move into our second quarter, and that's gonna, you know, just kind of building off our we you know, we talked to a small college coach and you and I have talked about this a little bit and we've coached long enough where, you know, that I guess the I guess what got me thinking about it, i how People I I they throw the term college prospect or yeah, he's a college player. They throw that term around pretty loosely. And and sometimes I guess i early in my coaching career and maybe even later in my coaching career, I'm not always sure what a college player is or looks like. I I think this kid or whatever is a college player and then it doesn't work out that way. And there were some times where it was just the opposite. But and I know you have some college experience and you actually had to recruit the college game. For a handful of years. Heck, you were recruiting the college game a little bit. Even when you were a high school coach, they had you kinda hired you privately, weren't they? anyway. No, no, and no, I'll take shots at you later, but Josh: you yeah, you I thought you were taking shots at all my school of choice. No, you you are right. When I was you you are right at the end of my stint at Mile in the beginning of Chelsea, I was getting paid on the side to recruit in the offseason. I was, yeah. Matt Seidl: Think about some of the best players you've coached and and that went on to play in college and like what what made them a college player in your opinion, na n now that you've seen it go Josh: Yeah. Matt Seidl: through its its whole journey? Josh: I w I would say two things. in in my opinion. I've thought a lot about this knowing we were gonna probably talk about it at some point. the number one thing is they have to be a gym rat. They they ha They have to be a kid that doesn't have to be asked to go work out. They're a kid that is texting their coach, texting their trainer, texting, you know, i you they're the kid that's texting their coach, even if their coach can't make it to workouts at night, can you just open the gym for me? They need to be that kind of kid. They have to love the grind. because as they go into college, most freshmen are not gonna play prominent roles. and if they go to a small school, you know, as we just talked to Jameson, you know, you go to a Wednesday night Adrian college game, there might be forty people there. And 25 of them are parents. So you have to love the game. You got to love the grind. And then I would say the other thing is kids that embrace developing their body. And what I mean by that is there are so many high school basketball players, especially now, that are not playing football. So they're skipping out on the weight room. They don't lift. They don't condition. They're not being coached in the fall. And I, you know, and it doesn't have to be football. You know, run cross country, play tennis, play soccer. Soccer, be coached by other people. So that way you can be coached by a different person in college. You can take tough coaching. And more importantly, you're consistently developing your body. I think those are the two things to me that stand out. Matt Seidl: That's man you're you're smarter than than than I think sometimes. You know, th those are that's two actually b huge areas and I didn't that that's not how I would have explained it. But when I started thinking about the the good high school players that I've had that went on to have college careers and you just described you described all of them. The embracing the the building of the body, I don't you know, that was twenty years ago I don't think it was focused on as much as it is now, especially in the game of basketball. so it's it's a little bit of you know relevant in terms of time or era. But you know, I think about like at the very first player, you know, probably the first college male player I ever coached was the at Wheel of Run, my first two teams at Will Dion Drake, who whose son Kobe now is one of Lincoln's star players, by the way. That's Josh: Nice. Matt Seidl: yeah, putting that two together and seeing Dion in the stands now. But again, so and the things that always came to me, there's a certain level of athleticism that you do have to have though. I think when college coaches come into the gym, they're looking at those things that you're talking about. They want to hear that they're a gym rat, they wanna hear that their work ethic is top notch. But then there's still there's the the physical piece that has to be there. Jesse Davis, you know, the l the Lincoln coach, you know, Jet Jesse played, you know, junior college basketball, but he you know, he was a different player. Like Dion was a score when defense was, you know, a a suggestion, whereas Jesse was the Gary Payton, you know, I mean, you know, he just he wanted to get up in your grill and and guard you ninety four feet. but any college coach that would have walked into the gym and watched him play a high school game was like, I I could use that guy. You know, he might not be the greatest scorer at the high school level or even at the college level, but he is going to grind for you and just had that that dog in him. But you know, and then there's one of my favorites of all time, Tyke Reeves, you know, really Josh: yeah. Matt Seidl: couldn't I mean Techie broke backboards with his jump shot Josh: Yeah. Matt Seidl: every once in a while. And he'd get going every once in a while too. He shot enough. But he was he was a college D1 college football player body playing high school basketball. And he never played football. Even though he got offered a football scholarship from Eastern Michigan University and never played a down of high school football. That's how athletic the kid was. Josh: Yeah. Matt Seidl: But you know, that was that special quality that you could just watch him run and jump and battle people and compete for fifty fifty balls and so those are the kind of things that, you know, also can can I guess separate you from just being a good high school player who's never really gonna have a a college career to you know, being a a h a decent high school player who college coaches are licking their chops about. so it's thrown around so loosely it just I s I wish people had a better understanding of it. I'm not even sure I have a great understanding of it, but it's worth talking and thinking about. Josh: Yeah, I think I think you bring up a great point though about not Even sometimes I scratch my head when I see certain kids offered and others not. I think we all do. but I think we have to respect and understand that those head coaches, that's their living. And they're making the choices they see best that fit their program. They're you know, like Jameson mentioned earlier in the interview, they're looking for certain fits. You know, like a Sam Hargraves at Olivet who plays a two-three zone. He's looking for length and size, but you know, and athletes and things like that. But you know, then a Ryan Cottingham who just retired at spring. Arbor, the former coach there, he was looking more for a locker room fit, a skilled guy that could defend, that could pass the ball, dribble the ball, do all those things. and and obviously wanted shooters in the corners, you know. So every everybody's got their own different thing they're looking for. so I think we've got to respect that from the coaches. I think that the best thing I've ever heard, and I really don't remember who said it. it was when I was coaching at Spring Arbor, and it was I was recruiting Fort Wayne. And we were talking and I a mom had approached a college coach and said, My kid's a a D two kid. Why haven't you guys offered? And the the coach said to the mom, Well, how many D two offers does he have? And she said, None. And he goes, You are what your offers say you are. And and I deal with that all the time right now as a high school coach, you know, and and we all do over the years, like, hey, I think my kids this, I think you are what your offers are. That that that's it. So I mean, you you only have the value that the college coaches think, not what mom and dad think, not what you know, friends or family think in the crowd. it's just the reality of it. yeah, it's it's it's a tough business. I think the other thing and I and I want to follow up and I'll let you jump in and I think part of it is these recruiting services are being run Matt Seidl: Mm-hmm. Josh: by people that never played the sport, never coached the sport. Now they have some nice writing skills and they are really good on Twitter and Instagram and they're the really cute pictures they put up. But I mean, we have recruiting services in the state of Michigan that'll be running by people that have never coached the game and never played the game. and I think that needs Matt Seidl: Mm. Josh: to change. And a change is coming. I know of a service that's gonna be popping up soon, run by by coaches and people Matt Seidl: Mm. Mm. Mm. Josh: that have recruited at the college level, so I look forward to that happening. Matt Seidl: I d I I do too. that's a great point there. the other thing is as we're kinda talking through this, you know the size of kids is amazing. I it does matter. Like I you know, Mike Josh: yeah. Matt Seidl: Mike Smutney, who I love, the one year I was at Celine, he Mike was a six eight kid. He went out and played in the UP obviously, D two basketball. you know, had Mike been six two or six three, you know, he wasn't gonna play college, but he wasn't. He was six eight and he was a great kid and he he brought value to us in the high school level and he and he brought value to a championship team up there as well. there's so many kids between the the heights of five eleven and six two, let's say, that are really, really, really good high school players, but you're they're a dime a dozen. And where do they fit into the college game? thousand point scores in high school, some fifteen hundred point scores in high school. there are two and come to mind, I'm not trying to I love these kids. Jerry Thornton, who by the way, passed away a year or two ago, was a another kid I coached at Will of Run. He was with Tykee Reese. They both averaged twenty points a game on a really good Wheel of Run team for two years in a row. Jerry was never really a college basketball, a serious college basketball threat, even though he could he could shoot it and he could just play the high school game really well. But he was Barely six foot, and he wasn't overly quick or fast, but he he knew how to play. He had an old school game. He no col college coaches never talked to me about him, but it was the athleticism of Tykey that drew their attention. And then of course my most recent one, Bo Lincoln, who I just saw yesterday at Taven Fellpocher's Josh: Yeah. Matt Seidl: wedding, by the way. anyway, Bo, you know, a thousand point score, one of just a cr tremendous high school basketball player. Josh: Yes. Matt Seidl: But there were college coaches when I would ask them, like, you know, yeah, I don't know if Bo you can get him away from football in terms of thinking, but They just they loved Bo's game but never really thought his ceiling was extremely high. Like they they thought he was reaching his ceiling in high school and that he w again, in h college might be a dime a dozen player. I think Bo could have helped a D three or NAA s N AIA school had he been given a chance or wanted to try to pursue it. But there was really not a lot of you know, hoopla about him in high school, which was weird. Josh: So I I I want to follow up with Bo. I I love Bo as a high school player. That's the type of kid. You watched your team, you're like, that's the kid I want from that team Matt Seidl: Yeah. Josh: on my team. You know, just the toughness, the leadership. He could, you know, he's gonna battle. Our great word that we love, compete. He would compete. Matt Seidl: Right. Josh: you know, but so I'll spin it though, and I'll sit in the college coach chair. I also watch Bo from a college coach perspective, and my mind always said, Okay, he's he's an eighth or ninth man at best. Come in and be a defensive stopper, maybe handle the ball. little bit, guard the other team's best guard. But I also saw him with a low ceiling because he wasn't a consistent enough shooter. And to be and this is where kids have to and I hope it kids and parents that listen to this, if if you're a six foot guard, you have to find a way to separate yourselves from all the other five, ten to six foot one guards. And one of the ways to do that is to be an elite shooter. And and Bo wasn't that and that was kind of where I th I I think that's where college coaches saw that, why he didn't get recruited more. Because I mean it certainly wasn't any of the other things. And Matt Seidl: Yeah. Josh: and speaking of guys that didn't maybe get recruited as high as they should have, let's talk about, and we already talked about the Davis family already in Willow Run ties, let's talk about Latin Davis who played for me. I mean, Latton Davis, if if Latten Davis was 6'3, he'd be playing in the NBA right now. I Matt Seidl: Yeah. Josh: I I there's no question in my mind about that. But instead he's 5'9, and I'm being generous with that 5'9 listing, maybe 5'8. And he he went to Cleveland State and every Year, you know what Cleveland State did? They tried to recruit over him, they tried to get a bigger version of him. And eventually he left and went to Wayne State and had a great career there. He had a good career at Cleveland State too, but had a great career at Wayne State. now he's playing pro basketball in Canada. He's making even more money playing basketball three on three all over the country. and it he's I mean, he's putting up 25 a gain and a pro 25 a game in a pro league in Canada. I mean, he's a phenomenal player, and he just keeps getting better, like he doesn't age. I mean, it's it's amazing. And but I look at him. And again, if Latin was 6'3 instead of 5'9, I mean he he's at least playing overseas, maybe in the league. Yeah. Matt Seidl: Right. Was it Cleveland State or Youngstown State for him? I I wanna I wanted to correct you. Yeah, y you're getting old, man. Josh: Youngstown State. That's right. Youngstown State. I I forgot, wait a minute. You know that no, I'm glad I am getting old, but I'm glad you brought that up because Larry D, my boy Larry DeSemple, who I love, the commissioner of the yeah, Matt Seidl: yeah. Josh: the crossroads league, he blew it. He should have recruited him to Cleveland State and he didn't. He just recruited Nick. Yeah, he blew it. Yeah, he blew it. So hope you're listening, Larry. Matt Seidl: That's okay. All right. Well, that that's a you know, that's a good topic and again, I I don't know if there's a magic formula, but I that that's how you stay in the college game as a college coach, is you can identify those guys, whether it's you're looking for a culture guy or you're looking for an athlete or you're looking for this or that piece, and then also to not get enamored with maybe players that are great in high school but aren't going to be great in college. It's that's part of being a great college coach, is you've got to be a a sift through all of that, Well, hey man, let's move into our third quarter. And th this could get I don't know if it's gonna get interesting, but and I guess what got us thinking about it, we're gonna we're gonna talk a little bit about coach ejection stories. and I guess what got us thinking about this is we we learned, I think, through social media, and and through some you know, people that you work with maybe or know, Chelsea football coach and Chelsea football's in the news right now because they are just a dominant force. By the way, they come Josh: Yes. Matt Seidl: into p they come into pinkney this week. We're really looking forward Josh: Ooh. Matt Seidl: to hosting the Bulldog and and that's out of respect. They they're just having a tremendous season. Yeah. I I I I hope we can find a way to compete with them Josh: I don't I don't think you're gonna have to hit the stop button on the clock much in the second half, I think. Yeah. Matt Seidl: and and we know we're up against it. But Noel Dean, who is orchestrating this this this Chelsea juggernaut this year, the the head coach, he got ejected up three or four touchdowns in the Dexter game from in week five. And that was his first and n Noel's an iconic coach. got a Yeah, he's already Noel. That's right, 'cause he that's right, he left and they put him in the hall, now he's back coaching in Michigan again. Josh: He he's no, he's in the hall of fame already. He's already in the hall of fame. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Matt Seidl: But he got ejected that was his first coaching ejection, according to the, the media, in his career, which in that's an illustrious career. But Josh: Yeah. Matt Seidl: did you hear anything about that over in Chelsea? What happened there? I don't Josh: So I have a lot of details. but yeah, no, I I mean Knowles like we said, Hall of Fame coach, great guy, great human. He's done a ton for the community and the program. but up 27 points, gets ejected against your rival the week before homecoming. I mean of a like that that's a that is not a veteran move how about we say that that's a rookie mistake and I mean I I wasn't there but you know I've talked to a few coaches on staff and a few other people and obviously he regrets it and and is apologetic. Now you're getting the story that all he asked for was an explanation. As we know you don't get ejected for just asking for an explanation. I mean so and I do know who ejected him and he's one of the best high school basketball officials we have in the state even does small Matt Seidl: come on. You you can't you can't just throw you get who is it? Josh: College. No, I'm I'm serious. Brian Bowers is the one that ran Brian, but you know Brian Brian's Brian is not a hothead. Brian is cool, calm like I Matt Seidl: I he ju he just worked a game at our place recently, yeah. Wow, okay. Josh: Yeah. Yeah. And and he's he's a great if high school basketball official. I mean, let me tell you, there's been many of nights that I have given Brian a piece of my mind and he has not teed me up or rejected me. Now he's told me, Josh, that's enough, you need to shut up and sit down. I'm like, Okay, I got you, Matt Seidl: Ha ha. Josh: Brian. And but I mean, like the what I'm getting at is he's not a quick trigger guy. So, you know, I don't know exactly what happened, but I mean, I I don't buy the I just asked for an explanation. It must have got heated because Brian's not the guy that's just gonna run somebody. Yeah. Matt Seidl: There may have been a magic word or two, but I who knows, right? We weren't we weren't there and regardless, Josh: Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Matt Seidl: they they with with Coach Dean not in attendance this past Friday, they rolled over Ipsilanti and they're homecoming again and they're basically have a running clock to start the second half, which has been pretty much every game for them for quite a while. So yeah. Josh: Lo let's be honest. I mean, i the with the schedule they have in front of them and the talent they have, they really I mean, w you and I could coach that team until about the semis and then th then somebody's gotta coach it. Yeah. Matt Seidl: You can become a cocky football coach, aren't you? You look at you, yeah. But of course th this ejection got us thinking. wha what are some of the great ejection stories that we've witnessed or been part of? Josh: Yeah. Matt Seidl: I I I probably have a little more experience in that area than you, but did you have you ever been ejected from a game? Josh: So twice in my career. one was a boring story. It was it was I wanna say 2001. I was at Whitmore Lake and it was against Morensi, and I don't even remember what it was for. I think it was one of those I wanted to go type thing from what I remember. It was just like we're losing, we're bad, and and we're losing at home on a Friday night, no energy, and I think I had just seen enough type thing. but that was, you know, 25 years ago. The only other ejection, and this one's a good one, I was 21-year-old JV coach for Rex Stanzak at Wall Lake Western. And I'll never Matt Seidl: I remember this. I remember this. Keep going. Josh: forget this. So we're at Lavonia Franklin. We're up like 20 in the fourth quarter, much like Coach Dean's situation. And they took out one of my players going to the rim and they didn't call foul. And I ran down the sideline chirping this official the whole way. And he turned and teed me. And I turned and again, 21-year-olds, and and I go, I don't give a bleep of a bleep. You're gonna let them hurt my kids because of the scoreboard. And he banged me again and tossed me up 20. Here's the thing is 21-year-old assistant or 21-year-old JV coach with no assistant coach. So they had to stop the game. I had to run Matt Seidl: Yeah. Josh: into the re locker room. Rex is giving his pregame talk, you know, going over. Over's board, this matchup, that and I go, Rex, I just got tossed. You got to get out there. And Rex also didn't have an assistant. I was his assistant. So he goes running out of the locker room, and the whole varsity team goes crazy. Yeah, trope, you know, and everything they're going crazy. And and that was geez, that was 1996, 1997. I mean, so yeah, Matt Seidl: what did Rex say to you once you got got to talk again? Josh: wait, so when I got out there, so I had to finish the talk with the varsity, I take him out there and they're warming up, and Rex got as you know, Rex could get pretty heated. He got right in my face during warm-ups and said, If we lose this game because of you and your stupidity Rex won by fifteen, so it was all good. So Matt Seidl: No. Josh: yeah. Matt Seidl: now that you bring the the J V one up, I do remember that. We were just getting to know each other at that time, Josh: Yeah. Yep. Matt Seidl: but I I can only imagine Rex reacting that way. So I've I've unfortunately had a few. you know, I st I I started to think about it knowing that we Josh: No. Yeah. Yeah. Matt Seidl: were gonna talk about this. I get you know, I'm not gonna belabor too many of I three times though playing against River Rouge. I that came to mind. Josh: okay. Matt Seidl: twice at River Rouge and once and that was when I was the Willow Run coach. And then once at home against River Rouge when I was the Ipsilanti coach, which by the way, you were on staff that year as our I think our head J V coach Josh: I coach the next game. Matt Seidl: at Ipsy and you ended up c having to coach Josh: Yeah. Matt Seidl: my Ipsy team, our Ipsy team, against rival Willow Run in our Josh: Yeah. Matt Seidl: next game. That happened to be the next game. And Josh: I remember that. Matt Seidl: and also I I won't you know I don't I shouldn't bring up the fact that you ran some kind of crazy set off the jump ball that wasn't even part of our playbook because you just wanted to make sure everybody in the gym knew that you were in charge. But my God. Yeah, so i anyway, but yeah, my River Rouge ones, dude, one time I got thrown out and we won in the first half of a game. And I'm in the locker room and they come in at halftime and we're we're playing so well, our kids got so fired up about it. I just stood in the shower and let our assistant coaches talk to And they were so motivated and we played great and ended up winning. And another game down there where we were getting hosed. I get tossed. I think it may have been the time when you could get three technical fouls, and I got three in a row. That's probably six Josh: Wow. Yeah, Matt Seidl: free that's six free throws. Josh: let's talk about that real quick before because I know you have many more objections and I wanna talk about one. Matt Seidl: No, I'm not gonna get into all of them, but I'm gonna just give you a couple. Josh: yeah, but I but let's for our listeners, I mean, a let if they're not at least 50 years old, if you're not 50 or older, you probably don't know about this. because my senior year in high school, I believe was the last year that of this rule, but high school coaches used to be able to get three technical fouls before they got kicked out. Matt Seidl: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Josh: And let me tell you, you and Rex, you you use two of them a lot. I mean, a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Matt Seidl: Well, that was the thing. You get a technical foul and then you snap back after the technical foul and then a lot of these rests would overreact and give Josh: Yeah. Matt Seidl: you a quick another one. So bang, bang. And but that allowed you then to make a decision, okay, I want to stay in this game and walk away. And then Josh: Right. Matt Seidl: sometimes, like at River Rouge that night, we didn't I didn't walk away. So I get three in a row. I so that's six free throws. I'm in the locker room and not two minutes after I get into the locker room, here comes my assistant Lonjonal Bond. And I think he's coming in to talk to me. Like, dude, like you're gonna have to coach him. We're gonna we're getting our butts kicked and they're shooting six free throws. Well now they're shooting ten free throws because Lonjonal just got thrown out of the game as well. So we're both in the locker room there. That was the time I think I I pulled the team off the court as well during before Lonjonal got his. And I so we had a team in the locker room. We were just dude, it was the one of the biggest Homer Hose jobs. This was back in Josh: Right. Matt Seidl: the day when you hired your own officials. Josh: okay. Right. Matt Seidl: There wasn't an assigner. The whole school hired officials. So when you went to certain places, you knew right away, like you gotta put a zipper on your mouth or you're gonna have a problem. And it was almost impossible to win, even though we, you know, we managed to win a few. But yeah, I pulled the team off. My AD has to come in, Chuck Cook. He said, Dude, if you don't send those guys back out there, you're probably gonna have to go to East Lansing. You might not get to coach in the tournament. So he kinda convinced me to send the team back out there and Dude, it was an absolute nightmare. I should have been fired to be honest that night. Chuck Chuck was I was very fortunate to have an understanding A D. but I I if I would have been the A D, I probably would have had to like suspend Josh: Yeah. Matt Seidl: or let my coach go. I think the crate the other one I gotta mention. I I got thrown out of a exhibition game against an Olivet versus Napoleon. So Matt Seidel coaching against his son Derek Seidel in an exhibition game over the holiday break. And I get I get tossed out by an official who just was taking it way too serious. so that that one was bizarre. it's a glorified practice, although there was a lot of interest in it because I I you know, we both are having really good seasons. I think we're both undefeated at the time and we were just getting together and playing and it was at Napoleon. the whole thing was spurred by you know an overzealous, you know, one of the walkers, the young walker kid. Who they they throw ki they throw people out all the time. The whole family does. And I I don't mind throwing that name out there. He knows who he is. when you did a little history check, that it I wasn't the first guy that I mean they were they were applying, you know eight technical fouls to certain teams during games. It was just like just unbelievable. But the MHSA wanted Olivet to sit me a game after getting thrown out of a basically a practice, because they did file the report. It it wasn't even a real game. Well no, the MHSA wanted Olivet Josh: Wait, I Ovet wanted you to? Matt Seidl: to sit me. And my principal fortunately had my back and said, First of all, there's no rule that says if you get thrown out of a scrimmage that Josh: Right. Matt Seidl: you have to sit. And then they also are my principal was at the game and realized how bogus the whole thing was. But the best part, well, I I I'm not gonna get in the best part. I don't wanna get Derek in trouble. But Derek had my back in the in the little little little controversial meeting there at half court before I left the gym. But I I was proud of my son that day to have his old man's back. But yeah, those Josh: Well and Matt Seidl: those eventful ejections, but I got more stories, but we we don't have time for all those stories, but anyway. We are gonna move into the fourth quarter of this podcast, and we have I think we're gonna kinda we we always circle back to private versus public at some point. And with you w with you wearing that tie today, I thought that made supposed to be symbolic of the way private school kids look at school and I'm kinda I'm kinda like the way Josh: No, so let let's talk about this. Matt Seidl: I look at public school kids might look at school. Josh: Yeah. a little bit. I mean, obviously, as as if you're listening to the beginning of the podcast, I did this for two reasons. One to honor Jamison, because he's the sharpest dress coach in the state. And the other one is to talk a little bit about one of my favorite coaches And and hey, a little row the boat. We're gonna roll the boat this morning. We haven't talked about it. I mean, I mean, my he's sharpest dressed college football coach, motivator, overachieving. I mean, we're gonna roll the boat. I mean, can we talk about Michigan football a little bit or are we done? Talking Michigan football. I mean, I mean, this is for PJ, my boy. Okay. Matt Seidl: We are we're done talking about Michigan football. Unfortunately, like I said, I was at a wedding yesterday, did not watch a single play. My phone was blowing up with frustration. But I yeah, I yeah, I I have nothing more to say about Michigan football. I am I think I'm a Missouri football fan now. I'm gonna follow Missouri. So after the big win over Florida yesterday. But yeah, I got no more to say. I was I was happy for for Minnesota. I I admire I admire the Minnesota program now. but and then they got the jug back for the first time in a long time, but they did get it back. Josh: Yeah. Matt Seidl: So yeah, it it's a in Ann Arbor right now it is a is a rough time when it comes to college football. But anyway, on the heels of Mark Yule, I think it was at the Frank and Muth update meeting, he was interviewed and it was all over Live this past week, late in the week, and basically his comments, you know, basically confirming that a study group or or task force has been formed by the MHSA and that they are looking into the private and public data and that they are you know they're gonna meet multiple times this year and then make recommendations to the rep council maybe once or twice during the year. But he also was very you know adamant that this is going to be anything that's recommended is going to be data driven. Data driven, data driven. He kept saying that it's not gonna be because of opinions and he I think he implied that there are a lot of opinions out there that maybe are not educated ones. but I think it makes sense to discuss this a little bit back to it. and I have I have emailed Mr. Yule. I want I I'd asked him because I told you I met with him in the summer. I I wanted to know first of all who is on the task force. Would he be would he mind revealing the names? I was just kind of curious who they put on there. And he very politely let me know that that's not their practice to release those names until the the work is done. But when the minutes are finally released at the rep council after the rep council meeting. the names of the committee members will be released. So we're not gonna know them until after it's all done. But Josh: Okay. That's fair. That's fair. Yeah. Matt Seidl: I the data they're studying, I guess I'm a little concerned. It's not, you know, championship data is great, state championships, regional, district, but I also am urging them to, you know, study the entire win loss, the win loss rate, the win rate of private schools over public schools in tournament play. I don't know if they're gonna get that deep into it. I know I get dead deep into it and I will again during volleyball, soccer and football playoffs this fall. But what what were your what were your thoughts real quick when that report came out this Josh: Well, Matt Seidl: week? Josh: I think two things. I I think you missed a very key important thing. Matt Seidl: Mm. Josh: I mean, cause he said it several times. This these decisions are going to be data driven and they're going to be thoughtful. so anyways, moving on. the other part, I'm How do you feel about with your research? You're not doing research on wins and losses during the regular season. You don't really care about that, do you? Like because otherwise you're gonna discourage privates from playing publics. When you put that data out, it's it's records in the postseason. Is that correct? Okay. Cause you cause you are in favor of well Matt Seidl: Correct. A hundred percent. Yep. No, I mean I don't I I think public and private should p you know, the regular season is all about the experience and it's all about Josh: Right. Yeah. Matt Seidl: trying to get better and finding, you know, competitive games. Sometimes Josh: Yeah. Matt Seidl: that is the local private school. why not? It's the tournament Josh: Okay. Yeah. Matt Seidl: where I think if you're just g you're going to classify by enrollment, there's a true advantage for the private schools. And so I I that's why I think you need to have some type of adjustment or separate tournaments, which again I I'm not totally in favor of, but yeah, that's where Josh: Yeah. Matt Seidl: I stand. Josh: Yep. No, I think you know, I and I I like to tease a little bit with MHSA, but I I mean Mark does a good job and he's very, very intelligent man and you know, let's be honest, a lot of things they do are PR driven and and or you know they you know, they gotta look the part and all those things. But I do appreciate that they are looking into this. I will be very interested to see what the data says. but like I how do I say this w we presented data in the past and ideas that just nothing ends up coming of it. So it'll be interesting to me if anything comes of this. and if there is a I don't want to say a solution, but a direction they go in. I don't think there is a solution to this. I think, you know, and this is where you and I disagree and I and we do agree on a lot of these things too, but there are some we disagree on. You know, one being I I just don't think people care as much as you think they do. I think the numbers are very low of people that actually care about this topic. I think like most things in our lives, if it affects us personally, we have interest and passion for it. And I I think that, you know, that it has affected many people you know and the teams that they run into along the way. And it's even affected one of your former teams. So I I totally get that. But I think there's a lot of people out there, and we've talked about this that just never run into a private school, so they probably don't care about this. You know, that kind of thing. So I think that's one thing. And then two, I this is where also where we disagree. If there is an issue, if they find that this is truly an issue that needs to be addressed, I think the answer is something you posted. It's one of my favorite things you've ever posted. You posted last year different playoff brackets for boys basketball. And Three champions for public, three champions for private, you even broke the privates in the divisions. I thought it was awesome. And and to me, that is the answer. I mean, if we're gonna do this, you gotta go up two divisions or you go up for two years, but then if you stink, you go down. And I I mean, it like what do we just split them. Just split them and let's go. You know what I mean? I just I think that's just my opinion though. I mean, I just I we all have our opinions. It's just my opinion. Matt Seidl: I I don't I I don't disagree with that. I've moved away from separate tournaments, but I do remember that post and I I remember doing the I do the work Josh: It was a great post by you. Yeah. Matt Seidl: and the the private school tournament would be smaller. it can be done and it could be a great experience for those kids and then the public school Josh: Yeah. Yep. Matt Seidl: tournament the same way and and and that would be almost look like the current tournament because there aren't that many private schools in the state on the big picture. They they they make up just over ten percent of the schools in the state. And that's why I I get your point where not enough people care because not a a lot of t public schools have to deal with private schools, but the ones Josh: Right. Matt Seidl: that do, it's impactful and it's a problem. Yeah. And so Josh: I agree. I I I I get that. Yeah. Yep. Matt Seidl: The mindset of the people on the task force is important. And if they come in with a mindset that this is not a problem or hasn't been based on their own life experience, that is going to skew the response to the data. Same thing with the rep council, where they stand in their life experience and their current mindset, how they receive the recommendation from the task force is going to be skew the the response. To say data driven and thoughtful, those can be two different things. And the data's gonna show one thing, and I think the data's gonna show especially if they get into a win rate, the data is gonna sh show exactly what I think that there's a definite inherent advantage by private schools. But the thoughtful piece is taking a deeper look and really looking at what the advantage is. And y I've I've shared this with you. I've shared this probably in piecemeal over time, I'm gonna start with what the advantage is. At a public school, there are district boundaries. And even though the most public schools offer school of choice, and Josh: Correct. Matt Seidl: you do get kids in, you know, sometimes as many as a third of your school might be school of choice kids. but you also might only be ten percent or five or whatever. but there are district boundaries in your school district is responsible. to serve, to educate everybody within those boundaries if they choose to come to your school and are eligible. At a private school, not so much. No boundaries. They have an application process. They can accept and not accept whoever they want. That's a that's a that's the basis of the advantage. Josh: Okay, so let me ask you, because I have to ask, because I I'm curious to this, and why is that an advantage for athletics? Matt Seidl: Okay. So I'm just saying, Josh: No, I mean I'm just yeah. Matt Seidl: let's take a school of 400, a public school of 400 and a private school of 400 kids. That's they're going to be classified in the same division because of enrollment. At a public school, you have a percentage of students who might put it, they might have criminal backgrounds. They might have behavior issues. They might have severe mental and physical disabilities. They might have challenges in their life that are mind-boggling to us that we can't even compare or even imagine having to go through. Most are most Josh: Well for the listeners, you Matt Seidl: or all of them offer zero to the athletic program because of all the other things going on in their life. Josh: That's a fact. What you just said there isn't an opinion. You right, we in we've well Matt Seidl: You know, you work in an affluent public school system. Josh: right, but we've both worked in public schools for Matt Seidl: Yeah. Josh: 30 years. What Matt Seidl: Yeah. Josh: you said is accurate for the listeners. That is accurate. There's no question. So what so what you're saying out of those 400 kids that said public school, that really there's only maybe 275 that could be athletes is what we're saying. And or maybe 250, whatever. And but then at the the private at the private school, you're saying there's maybe I don't know, 20 kids that couldn't be at I don't know what what are you Matt Seidl: I'm saying out of the 400 at the same type of at the same enrollment private school, you don't have kids with the challenges that that some of these public schools have to deal with. And and again, that's what the schools are there for. Rightfully so. They're supposed Josh: Of course. Yes. Matt Seidl: to educate those kids. At a private school, if you come in with we can't service you. We don't have to, they don't have to accept a kid with a criminal background or an IEP for that matter or or severe mental or physical challenges because they don't have the resources to serve those kids. Therefore, and and the support, let's face it, the support that the majority of private school kids have outside, you know, like w within their like their parents and their families, a little bit different than let's say the majority or a a good portion of the kids at a at a public school. And that's where so You know, there's three hundred and seventy five of the four hundred kids who are potential athletes, you know, at a private school, and that's what they're dealing with. Whereas, you know, at at the same public school, same size public school, it it's two hundred and it's two hundred or it's a hundred and seventy five five. There's the big difference. Yes. For sure. Josh: So I that's where the that's where the classification comes in. What you're saying is th so th they should bump up one because of potential athletes in the building. Okay. All right. So o okay Matt Seidl: Bump bump up or separate or something. It's just it's it's apples and oranges. I mean, let let's walk into Michigan Josh: All right, so but but I want to go a step farther. Matt Seidl: Center and then let's walk into Luma Christie. You go two different places, man. Two different places. Josh: No, I I I'm not I'm not gonna disagree with that. I I'm not. I'm not gonna disagree with that. But here's my issue. You walk into Chelsea, Celine, Dexter, Brighton, and Rockford, you walk into Granville. You walk into I I can go go walk into Milford. You know, I could keep going on and on here. You walk into those places and we have state-of-the-art weight rooms, indoor practice facilities, domes, turf fields, money facilities strength coaches, enough money on staff to pay nine football coaches, four basketball coaches, three baseball, you know, so on and so forth. So that's also an inherent advantage. And so where does it stop? Because you can't tell me those schools don't have an advantage. they do. Matt Seidl: You talking about an a a so socio economic district. Josh: Correct. and and I'm not just talking socio economic of the the pupils. I'm talking the community that is pouring money into these schools and facilities and all these extra coaches and trainers. And so I think there's a there's an inherent advantage there if your community can afford the pouring of money into these facilities and coaches and and things like that. Matt Seidl: The one difference is all of those schools that you mentioned, first of all, they're all D one and if you're gonna you know, if you're gonna have some type Josh: Or D two, you're right. Matt Seidl: of multiplier or success factor, you're not doing anything with D one schools anyway. The publics and privates are just gonna have to deal with each other because you can't move you can't go Josh: Right. Matt Seidl: up from D one. That that's the highest unless you have a super a division or something like that. But all of those schools you mentioned have boundaries and have responsibilities to educate Josh: hold on. Matt Seidl: everybody within their boundaries. And so and some of Josh: Okay. Matt Seidl: those kids I mean even at Dexter and I love the Dexter community. I think it's a great place to raise a family and send kids. There is a there is a there is a there is a population in Josh: Well a lot of transfers at Dexter. Yeah. Yeah. Matt Seidl: Dexter that has zero or nothing to do with athletics for various reasons. Josh: Yeah. Matt Seidl: And don't know that they'd be welcome if Dexter was allowed to have an application process. Even in an affluent district like Dexter had an application process about kids coming to their school or not. They they Josh: Alright but Matt Seidl: They are obligated to educate those young people, Josh: Okay. Matt Seidl: which I again, rightfully so. Josh: Yeah, yeah, but I let's get away from that too for a second. Let's but you keep saying the word boundaries. Okay, so let's look at what would Chelsea basketball be like the last five years without Joey and Drew Cabana? Those those I mean, do you imagine if Grass Lake had those two kids? Celine football's transfer you the last 15 years. I mean, so, and it's killed the Ann Arbor programs. So, I mean, like, we could also look at those things like when we say closed. Boundaries. Like are they really close boundaries? Matt Seidl: Yeah, wha well y y again, the Celines of the world and the Bellvilles of the world, there's nothing you you can't move up any higher than they already are. Nor Josh: Okay. Matt Seidl: but the Chelsea, yeah, it you know, if if y even if you said twenty-five or thirty-five or forty-five percent of of of their team was school of choice, right. Josh: it's not that high. It's not that high. Yeah. No. Matt Seidl: A hundred percent, a hundred percent of the Flint Powers, the Monroe St. Mary's, the Lumen Christie's, the UD Jesuits. A hundred percent of their student athletes are school of choice. Not Josh: Yeah. Matt Seidl: twenty percent, a hundred percent. There's there Josh: Alright, so w Matt Seidl: so that's a big difference. Josh: so really I I think we agree that they need to do something. I I I am I'm saying that on the podcast. Something needs to be done when you look at the numbers. and I just I just don't know if there's a good answer. Cause then like in basketball last year, no private schools want a state title. You know, and it's like, well, I don't but but I know that's not what it's about. It's more about these district championships, things like that. Because I mean, there's a lot of schools that that don't deserve to win a state title, but they could win a district title, and that that'd be a cool experience and I get that. but to me, I'm just done with the There's 32 different ways to do this. Just if if at the end of the day, if the data shows it and and it's truly a passion of people in the state, and End of the day, I just separate If it really comes down that big of a deal, man, let's just go our separate ways. But then can we have our own rules, please? Where we can we can we stop fouling the stupid FHSA rules if they have our own rules? Okay. Okay. Matt Seidl: God, yes, yeah. Yeah, that's another topic. I'm put that down the list of topics, but Josh: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Matt Seidl: there's not an easy fix. I I just I hope the MHSA and I've again in an email this week I encouraged them, if you're just gonna look at the data, again there's those those biases that are gonna be there. The data's gonna reveal some stuff. Now, but the data also is gonna be cyclical. I mean, 'cause you know, there are gonna be years where it's it's Wow, and then there gonna be other years, maybe there isn't a problem. if you go back 20 years, you're gonna see that. To not include the common sense, the thoughtful part. survey your membership, talk to the athletic breakers, get some they they said they want to avoid opinions. No, they need to listen to opinions. There are a lot of good opinions out there. Listen to what people have to say, solutions and issues that they have, and consider all of that. That's what that task force should be doing, not just looking at the numbers. Josh: So Matt Seidl: The numbers are going to reveal a lot, but you've got to, you've got, if you're going to do a thoughtful response, then take in information from people who have an understanding of what's going on. Josh: I want to defend Mark here though with this and when he says they don't want to listen to opinions. I agree with Mark and what you do is you you ask for the opinions, but you listen to all of them with a grain of salt and listen very little. I you they can't make the decision. And the reason being is, and then just hear me out on this, in in four or five years, when you're coaching Duncan in T ball and getting thrown out of T ball games and you're retired as the Pinckney A D and and you you're too blind to see social media anymore 'cause you've gotten that old, like like when you like you go away, like I wouldn't want them to listen to your opinion that much when you're gonna be phased out of it at some point. Like I I think they need to listen a little bit, but like Mark's saying, it's it really does need to be data driven. Matt Seidl: I I'd I I'd like to see a balance. and one Josh: Yeah. Matt Seidl: last thing on this topic. Will pe this is not about recruiting. Will people please stop with the recruiting? Recruiting is not the advantage that private schools have over public schools. There is recruiting going on across the board. There might even be more Josh: No no. I think people need Matt Seidl: recruiting going on at the public school level. This that is not that is not what this issue Josh: okay, you gotta clip this. You gotta clip this. Matt Seidl: is about. Josh: No, you need you need to clip this because that's gold. Because I'm gonna tell you when when people talk to me about you, that is their biggest complaint is they they think that's what like they needed to hear you say that it's not about recruiting and at public schools. No. Matt Seidl: never been. I've and I've n I I've never said it was, but people will assume the club versus community thing is about recruiting. It's not about recruiting. It's Josh: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Matt Seidl: about the enrollment, the way that that enrollments are built at private and public schools, they're different. And that's my issue. That's the big unfair advantage that I think is out there. and you may or may not agree, but yeah, it's not about recruiting. There's some great recruiting going on. Yeah. Josh: No, I love I love that you said that 'cause I you and I have talked about this and I knew that from your perspective. But I think it's good that people hear you say that. Because I think a lot of people are just like, everybody recruits. Well, that's not what he's saying. Yeah. Matt Seidl: Yeah, man. Come on, there's the portal. There's free look, I got the Yankees hat on today. Free agency, baby. I mean, that's you know, it's it's a symbolic gesture right there. So, hey, by the way, how about Jameson's son, two year old son, his name Bronx. Like, is is that a classic name? I love my grandson's Josh: How cool is that? It's a strong name. Matt Seidl: name, Duncan Matthew, by the way. But Bronx? Come on, that is an awesome name, man. I Yeah, I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan of Bronx Webster right now. So anyway. Josh: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That is that's an awesome name. I mean Duncan Matthews right there too. Yeah. Yeah. I hope both Bronx and Duncan, you know, decide to play tennis and golf and bowling in the winter. I hope so. Yeah, yeah. Matt Seidl: I'm not yeah, I I can only speak Duncan's mom. I don't think she she loves football, but I don't think she's gonna she's gonna be pushing him toward football. She's a little Josh: Ha ha. Matt Seidl: protective in that area. I don't blame her so but dude, this was fun. We had some good good conversation this week. look forward to doing it again. And Josh, you yeah, row the boat, man. I I've got nothing to say. I've got nothing to say. Yeah, it's pr it's Josh: Let's go, baby. Roll it. Row it. Go, Irish. Matt Seidl: probably why I got a little bit of an edge today. It's yeah, go I'm you know. I gotta I gotta find a new college football team for the next you know seven or eight weeks. Holy cow. But Michigan will not lose. I guarantee they will not lose this coming week. That's a bye we it's a bye week. Yeah. Josh: Who do they play? Alright. Good to see ya. Yep. Matt Seidl: Alright, man. Have a good week. We'll see you, bud.