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Brainwashed · Why We Do What We Do

0:03
You're listening to Why we do what we do? Welcome to Why we do
0:16
what we do? I am your I need my brain cleaned host Abraham Ah
0:21
and I am your undermind Control host shame Mine took a second because the cleaning
0:26
was in progress. Oh yeah, yeah, well the ruma got stuck the
0:30
mind Ruba anyway Where Psychology Podcast. We talk about the things that people do,
0:36
and sometimes we talk about the things that people maybe don't do. And
0:39
we like to unpack terms and ideas that we feel like we've all just sort
0:44
of accepted or there, and then maybe they're not there in the way that
0:47
we think they are. Maybe there's a better way to understand them. I
0:50
mean, we talk about other things too. We talk about economics, we
0:53
talk about business, We talk about animals, we talk about pseudo science.
0:58
We also talk about holidays. We do today on the day that this episode
1:03
comes out, on December twentieth, it is National Sangria Day, So if
1:07
you enjoy fruit wine, I guess sure, it's also cathode ray tube Day,
1:12
a technology of the past that is disappearing into the rear view faster than
1:17
we can say its name. Yeah, that feels like a very fifties,
1:19
like sci Fi experiment cathode rays. It's also dot your eyes Day. So
1:26
with you're handwriting, make sure you do that. Tell you might just put
1:27
dots in your eyeballs just oh yeah. Yeah, Well there's tattoo artists that
1:32
do that, but they say not to because it seems like it's really dangerous.
1:34
You could lose your eyes. Yeah, that's fair. One of my
1:37
all time favorite. If I understand it the way I want to understand it,
1:38
which is games day. Yeah, so that is what it is.
1:42
Please, that is great. That's your day. I am here for it.
1:47
Yes, while you're playing games, I'm going to go caroling because it's
1:49
also go caroling Day. Lovely one would not want me caroline with them.
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That would be a disaster for everybody. I would want you with me.
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You would want me until I opened my mouth and started creating a noxious gas
2:04
like odor that was my singing. No, it would knock everyone out with
2:07
an Yeah, we'll be like the Grinch of caroling. It'll be great.
2:13
Have you seen that show? Let me see your voice? No? Okay,
2:16
Basically they have people come on who are like really terrible at singing,
2:20
and then they will lip sync to songs and the people will try and guess
2:23
whether they're actually good at singing or actually bad at singing. Oh that's kind
2:25
of fun. Yeah. Ken Jong hosts it and anyway, I would be
2:30
one of the bad at singing ones me too. The level of bad that
2:32
they are is remarkable. Anyway, back on track for holidays, and it
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is Sako Jawia Day, and that one's important. We need to acknowledge our
2:42
indigenous peoples. Absolutely. It's also Poet Laureate Day, which I always read
2:47
is Poet Lariat Day, which is a very different, I think experience.
2:53
Christmas Bird count Week, So all of you birders out there, keep track
2:58
of your Christmas birds, report your numbers. Well, we'll see what people
3:00
see. Yeah, I mean I assume that by this point in time you'll
3:04
have at least twelve partridges, fair enough, so maybe some geese, yeah,
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like probably way too many geese. Yeah, I would imagine this point
3:10
in time, it's something like, I don't know, like hundreds of geese
3:14
at this point. It's also cookie exchange week, so make sure you share
3:19
with your friends. And you can combine that with the fact that it's gluten
3:22
free baking week, so you give gluten free cookies, or if you like
3:24
the people, you're giving them two not gluten free cookies. Take that gluten
3:30
free industry, big gluten and all that. We're just kidding. I'm very
3:36
sumportant free cookies. Yeah. Yeah, I have a friend who's a gluten
3:38
free baker and she makes really rad stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Oh and
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you know, ser since we're talking about cookies, you know how you can
3:45
tell the difference between a vegan cookie and a not vegan cookie. How you
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can't cookies is cookies. Yeah, it's also Saturnalia, So there's that too.
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Yeah. I think that was a maybe a Circus album. It feels
4:00
like it. It probably was, maybe not It sounds like it would be
4:04
or like a Hopes Fall record. It does sound like it would be one
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of the records. Being intimately familiar with their albums, I know that it
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is not. Yes, and now I need to go listen to all their
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albums. So thank you for putting me on that path. Anyway, if
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you like what you hear today, beyond the holidays, that might be your
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jam, but you're probably here for other reasons. Thank you for joining us.
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We're happy to have you. If you're joining us for the first time,
4:27
and you would like to support us after you hear the great job that
4:30
we do talking about today's topic, which we'll get to in just a second.
4:32
You can join us on Patreon, pick up some merch, leave a
4:34
rating and review, like and subscribe, share us with some friends, possibly
4:39
scrub Why we do what we do into someone's brain, do it gently and
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finally, though not in an aversive way. Yes, and that would be
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some support. And I'll talk more about those ways that you can support us
4:46
at the end of today's topic. But Shane has an important question for us
4:50
and getting kicked off. So in this episode, we asked the question,
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what do LSD, Charles manson the Moon, and Guyana have in common?
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You're gonna be pleasantly surprised. Super interesting stuff going on here? Is it
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that they all have a dark side? Honestly? I think at this point,
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when we get to end this episode, yeah, yeah, that's probably
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it fair enough? Fair enough? Should we introduce our topic or should we
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leave them hanging a little bit while we do a little bit more intro.
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We've got so much intro, no, I think we can go ahead and
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dive in. We are talking about brainwashing today, and brainwashing is I think
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this term that is grossly overused, Yeah, with very little understanding of what
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it actually is, if it is even a thing. So yeah, I
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think we should probably unpack that a little bit. I bet you saw the
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episode title and knew that already. But yeah, we're talking about brainwashing,
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and we're going to do our best to take a skeptical scientific chisel to this
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nebulous lump of enigmatic coal. I guess that's an expression, at least I'm
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making it one now. It is. Now see what we can find by
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chiseling away the chunks at what lies underneath. Let's start by defining our term.
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Brainwashing is quote the process of pressuring someone into adopting radically different beliefs by
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using systematic and often forcible means. And to that point, we're actually going
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to try our hands maybe alternative ways of describing what brainwashing is, because some
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of that is a little too nebulous. I feel like to adequately understand the
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phenomenon, which we'll get to as we unpack it. Yes, we're gonna
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spend a little bit time on this. The definition that we just described doesn't
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really cover what is commonly understood is as brainwashing. So a more specific definition
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is a forcible endoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social,
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and or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting, regimented ideas. So
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essentially it says, you believe this, we're gonna make you not believe that,
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and we're gonna make you believe pretty much the opposite of what you believe
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before, and now you're gonna go out into the world with that new belief
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system and make you do that through means that we will unpack as we go.
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But yeah, this is sometimes referred to as mind control. Coercive persuasion
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is a pretty good description of it, actually, Yeah, thought control,
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thought reform, or forced re education. Yeah, and none of those things
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sound fun. We do, really think about it. I don't want that
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for myself or anyone else. No, So there is actually a really interesting
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history with this. The term was originally coined by Edward Hunter, an American
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journalist and expert in propaganda. As he was working on reporting news from various
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regions in Asia, he began to read various accounts like articles and books and
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stuff from that time about mass re education programs and the People's Republic of China.
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Yeis, when you are enumerating the vials of another culture, you are
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already in dangerous territory. I think, yes, So I'm going to tell
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this through my own xenophobic sort of lens. Yeah, that's what he's doing.
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In his nineteen fifties book Brainwashing and Red China as the title, he
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gave it alarms and flags all over the place. He provided an accounting of
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the process used to indoctrinate citizens into beliefs and attitudes that aligned more with Maoist
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views. So it was essentially just more pro state friendly ideology. We love
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the government, we love our leader. We will follow and do whatever is
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expected of us in this particular government setting. Yes. So that brings us
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to a news segment on the show called Shane's History Corner. I think that
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we need a little bit of information here to be able to kind of contextualize
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that. So. Mal Zadam was the leader of the People's Republic of China
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from nineteen forty nine to nineteen seventy six. He is considered a prominent figure
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in relation to communist rule. He's like one of the figureheads of communist rule,
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and some argue this is some of the discussion that was being had about
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this particular topic, not our opinion, not our opinion what people have said.
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People have said this. Some people say that he was a great leader
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because he was credited with transforming China into a world leader by bring in women's
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rights, healthcare, and primary education to the country. But also forty eighty
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million people died due to his policies, So not so good, complicated but
9:11
not sounding great really kind of one of those things that we yet to kind
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of we're not history buffs, but we wanted to give you a little bit
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of context about what's going on here. So the Maoist views that we're talking
9:22
about are doctrines, attitudes, and beliefs that align with Mao's political views and
9:26
practices. So again, very state oriented, very communist party oriented, very
9:30
towards that type of political leaning. This has been Shane's history corner. Ah,
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and it wasn't even drunk for it. Back to our author here,
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the xenophobe person maybe jinguist also, yeah, Edward Hunter, his introduction of
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the term brainwashing might not have been a coincidence. This is fun speculation,
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but and we've talked about this in the past. He was a former employee
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of the Office of Strategic Services or OSS, the predecessor for the Central intelligen
10:00
Agency or CIA in the United States. If you're familiar with the history of
10:03
the CIA, you know that they don't always do the most upstanding things.
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And taking mk ultra type stuff here, uh huh as some history. So
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anyway, we know that he also has a relatively unsavory or a history I
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guess with and on what we might be considered an organization with unsavory past activities.
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Yes, I'm being way too coy here. Yeah. Well, ultimately
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what we're saying is is that he is linked to an organization that is known
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for doing bad things. Yeah. And also this is at a time where
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people are very afraid of communism, yeah, especially coming out of World War
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Two. So it stands to reason that there is a there is a good
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chance that he was involved in kind of maybe creating some propaganda around this.
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So it is alleged that Edward Hunter having direct ties to the CIA at the
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time and being an expert in propaganda. By the way, he wasn't just
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a journalist, he was also an expert in propaganda. That makes sense.
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He introduced brainwashing as a term to bolster anti communist sentiments at the time,
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linking this bad thing to China. Brainwashing to China, it's a fairly easy
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fear mongering tactic and basically kind of says they can wipe our brains and make
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us believe that anything that we don't want to. That's kind of the scare
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there. While to be charitable, it's very possible he was just kind of
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reporting based on his own viewpoints and political leanings. There is that kind of
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like fun little nugget of like is the government involved in this? Yeah?
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I think that this is not something that has gone away either. I think
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this is still used in these semi not semi full fear mongering ways. This
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is still used to, I think, push this idea of fear and fear
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mongering. I think that this is used to say, like college universities are
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brainwashing your children, m hm, or you know, on the other other
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way around, these liberal news networks are brainwashing your viewers, and I guess
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that's the same that's the same way around. Oh, let's do it this
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way. Then the conservative talk shows are brainwashing their viewers. Sure you can
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spend it. However, however you want. But the idea embedded inside of
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that is this someone else can make you believe something that you would not have
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otherwise believed by essentially erasing what important parts of your mind would have stopped you
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from believing that thing. Right, That sounds like that kind of colloquially captures
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it. Yeah, Yeah, I mean ultimately, at the end of the
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day, what they're doing is it's a way to other a group by saying
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that they can make you believe what they want you to believe through this kind
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of process, Right, And so brainwashing it itself sounds scary, and then
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it's also a really catchy term. Brainwashing is real, especially at a time
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where people don't really understand psychology that well, you really think about like that
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when this first came out, we're talking about kind of the emergence of more
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psychological practice, like this is after World War Two, where they're doing more
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assessments, they're looking at shell shock, they're looking at all these things that
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are coming up. As far as like psychology goes, it's becoming more of
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an everyday thing. And so now you throw it terms like brainwashing out,
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which sounds really fancy and sounds really scary, and then you attach that to
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another group. I mean, it's a perfect formula for propaganda. Yeah,
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I mean that You're right, that is a great marketing term. I think
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people hear it, they immediately have some emotional, visceral thoughts and reaction about
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what it could be. And some of the best I think, maybe not
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best, but most capable brainwashers out there are advertisers. Actually they're terrible at
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it because we just ignore them. Hopefully you were able to do that too.
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But let's get into more of the history of brainwashing here, particularly as
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it pertains to the people who are pointing the finger while doing the quote unquote
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brainwashing. Yeah. So I call this section mk Ultra not the band or
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doth do protest to much? So? The US has told us already that
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brainwashing is bad, right, that's what they're saying. They publish this book,
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they're kind of making a public statement, Hey, brainwashing is bad.
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But then they go, wait a second. So, in the nineteen sixties
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and seventies, the US actually attempted to weaponize quote unquote brainwashing techniques through a
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program called Project mk Ultra. You have probably heard the term, but maybe
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don't know the depths of what this thing is. We've definitely at least referenced
14:26
that multiple times on this show. Yeah, I mean, honestly, it's
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kind of funny. They made up a term in sort of a xenophobic propaganda
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and then decided, oh, we should use that to our advantage, Like,
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yes, you just pretended it existed in the first place, and now
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you want to use it as a weapon. That's like saying like, I'm
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going to go look for unicorns and by the way, I'm going to start
14:48
making unicorn horned weapons right now. Uh huh, I'm like, what what's
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happening. It's a wild it's a wild like, I mean, it makes
14:54
your head pivot so quickly. It's so crazy it does, it does so
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And anyway, well, a little description here is necessary MK Ultra not the
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band was an illegal human experimentation program, illegal because it's not legal, right,
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and what they did was wildly inappropriate. They did not gain consent on
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this is the sixties and seventies. That understanding of consent was was well understood
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at this point, sure, and this was directly implemented by the CIA,
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and the history on this is bonkers. So we're not going to do a
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super deep dive, but understanding that basically this started with Nazis, as most
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terrible things do, yes, so I bet you didn't think we were going
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to take that swerve. So this actually started with Nazi scientists in Germany.
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They had experimented with the idea that various substances might be useful in influencing people
15:45
as a sort of truth serum. The idea of a truth theoreum came from
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Nazi Germany, and by using substance to quote eliminate the will of the person
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examined end quote, they could essentially control everything the person said and did in
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so many words. So the idea was the research question came from Nazi Germany
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and Nazi scientists, and the US was like, hmm, let's see what
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that looks like. Now, if you're going to try and write in or
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leave a comment to apologize for the Nazis or talk about all the good things
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they did, save it, Yeah, we don't care. Nope, and
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no, no one here needs to defend Nazis. Right, go read a
16:22
book that is not about Nazis. Maybe learn something and save your comments for
16:26
yourself. Right Anyway, mk ultra Is essentially said to be a continuation of
16:32
the type of research that Yeah, you were just talking about those whole truth's
16:33
here my idea. And as a result of Operation paper Clip, the program
16:38
that hired Nazi scientists after World War Two to come work for the US government,
16:44
oftentimes in NASA, maybe exclusively in NASA, in exchange for their immunity
16:49
for their participation in the Holocaust. Right, So, if you are not
16:56
familiar with that history, I mean, I feel like a lot of our
16:59
folks are. But if you've never heard of Operation Paperclip, the reason that
17:02
we got to the Moon was because of the Saturn rockets that were not American
17:06
inventions. They were created by Nazi rocket scientists and engineers. So if you
17:11
wonder how we got to the moon and got to the moon successfully, it
17:14
was because we enlisted the United States government enlisted Nazis to help build them.
17:18
Yeah, why were there so many white people with accents running NASA at the
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time. Yep, yep, that's why. That's why. So first of
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all, that's tying it back to the first question. That's where the moon
17:30
comes in. Oh, there we go. Great, But the scope of
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mk Ultra is huge, including the using drugs for coercion and interrogation and disruption
17:37
through strategic means. So ultimately the drug of choice used for the program was
17:41
lysurgic acid diethylamide or much easier to say LSD. So that's where that comes
17:49
in. And so one day we are going to do a deep dive on
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LSD because I think that that in itself is a fascinating thing. Oh yes,
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very interesting. They thought the LSD was going to be the way into
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controlling people. Yeah. Yeah. The first guy apparently who tested it like
18:02
thought that he had drank spoiled milk or something of that nature. I don't
18:04
know. He he took something like one hundred times the dose a person might
18:11
take today because he had no idea. He's like, oh, maybe it'll
18:14
be about this many milligrams and then was like for a whole day was just
18:17
out. Yeah, So there's that. That would be actually a really fun
18:21
episode to do, Yeah, particularly in both understanding how it affects the brain
18:26
and debunking the myths about how it affects the brain, because there's a lot
18:30
of just like everything else, there's just a lot of propaganda packed into the
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rhetoric around understanding LSD and what it does so absolutely. And these experiments,
18:41
though, what they were doing is this with LSD. They included administering LSD
18:45
to institutionalized patients, prisoners, vulnerable populations, drug addicts, sex workers,
18:51
and these people because, as the agency put it, they wanted quote people
18:53
who could not fight back end quote. That's a direct quote. Yeah,
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when you say that you are on the wrong side of history, right,
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that is an acknowledgment that you have crossed a line into being the villain.
19:07
Just pointing that out. In one experiment, they continuously admitted administered LSD to
19:11
an institutionalized patient for one hundred and seventy four consecutive days. That is a
19:19
wild ride that no one should be forced to go on. Yes, And
19:23
so this is all under the idea that we can use this to control people
19:30
and get them to believe what we want to believe. Right. So this
19:33
program also included dosing objects that might be grabbed by enemy operatives, so like
19:37
pens, cigarettes and stuff like that, and drugging water supplies in towns to
19:41
send citizens into a tizzy. So they were trying to see, like on
19:44
a mass level, if they could get an entire cities worth of people under
19:48
control. Right, So all this was developed with the goal to essentially,
19:52
because we noted earlier and talking about Project paper Clip, they wanted to wipe
19:56
the will if you will, quote unquote wipe it away and allow the interrogations
20:00
and the control to go more smoothly. They'd be able to essentially get them
20:04
to say and do what they wanted them to do if they forced them into
20:10
these situations with enough coercion, with enough drug administration, that they'd be amenable
20:15
to suggestions such that they would do things they would not otherwise do. Essentially
20:19
saying we can create human puppets that will do our bidding to specification, that
20:25
was the goal, right. I mean, as a government who wants to
20:29
control the people, that sounds like a pretty great tool, right, Like,
20:32
if my goal is to get hundreds or thousands of people under my control,
20:36
then the best thing to do is to figure out a way to wipe
20:38
their wills so they will do everything I say. And I think it's also
20:41
important too to recognize that these experiments were one illegal and they were not just
20:45
taking place on US soil. So these experiments that were specifically under mk ULTRA
20:51
took place in secret detention camps across the world to avoid any sort of legal
20:56
action. So when they were dosing cities, it wasn't just in the United
20:57
States. There were camps set up in many parts of Europe, East Asia,
21:02
and in Japan, West Germany and in the Philippines. So this is
21:04
happening all over the world. Yeah, and it's just I don't know,
21:10
it's unfortunate. I think unfortunately. This is way too gentle of a way
21:12
to put it. It's gross, Like, this is gross, gross thing
21:15
that people have done to each other. It's one of those things where you
21:18
read about it and you start to have the thought like maybe humans do suck
21:22
and don't just to keep going. Yeah, I mean, I feel like
21:25
I'm optimistic about humans, and I think most humans are good and good to
21:29
each other, but the bad ones seem to get a lot of power a
21:32
lot of the time. Yeah, And I mean, this is kind of
21:34
a thing that's happened, and you know, it's unfortunate because, as we
21:37
mentioned earlier, this idea of brainwashing and kind of like the tests that were
21:41
run by the United States government at the time, we're really ultimately targeting those
21:47
vulnerable populations, those marginalized groups, and so We talked about this on the
21:51
Syphilis episode as well, where medical experiments were exposing the black community. You
21:56
talk about the drug the War on drugs, which again was attack marginalized groups,
22:00
and so we have a pretty unsavory history with this in the United States,
22:04
and I think, you know, brainwashing is just another kind of jewel
22:08
in that crown, if you will. And it's unfortunate too, because,
22:12
as we'll talk about when we get to LSD, it's very possible that some
22:18
use of some of these drugs, and thinking about the War on drugs as
22:21
well, which drugs won, by the way, yes they did. Some
22:26
of these drugs could be therapeutic, they could be used as medicine, they
22:29
could be beneficial to people, but instead we turn them into politics. You
22:33
know, I was just kind of thinking as we were talking through this,
22:36
I kind of would like to go back to the days where everyone was just
22:38
mad at politicians all the time, like all politicians, rather than as like
22:42
warshiping the you know, these political figures, as like they can do no
22:48
wrong, whatever they do, it's fine, and like what happens, like
22:52
let's just all be angry at all politicians because they chose a career of being
22:57
in the position like the mc ultra people were of, like they're controlling the
23:03
rules that govern the masses, and it's irritating and frustrating, and we might
23:07
all of them for doing that rather than picking sides like right here on the
23:11
side of the people and not the sort of authoritarian control that so many people
23:15
desire to have. So anyway, getting off track back to brainwashing, what
23:21
does it do? How do we do it? The argument is that brainwashing
23:25
essentially makes you disregarded its about previous belief systems and adopt new views or new
23:29
beliefs, almost like a reset button on your entire worldview. That's kind of
23:33
what the idea is. I can take you into a space, wipe away
23:37
anything that you previously believed, and I can give you new beliefs in this
23:42
process should be they I mean, the argument is it should be fairly simple,
23:47
pretty straightforward, and nearly perfect. Then it doesn't work like that,
23:49
Yeah, absolutely so. There are some basic techniques that some groups might use
23:53
as part of their brainwashing procedures. Now need to give you a little heads
23:57
up as we go forward on this. Some of this will overlap with other
24:03
types of abuse and gaslighting. We might hear some of that that has that
24:07
sort of ven diagram. There's some similarities there, but stick with us for
24:11
a minute while we continue the discussion. There are two major contexts in which
24:15
brainwashing is considered to be quote unquote more effective, and I do think as
24:21
well as we unpack this, there's sort of a couple ways to talk about
24:23
brainwashing. One is the condition under which are what are the conditions that are
24:29
occurring that lead to what we might call brainwashing where the effect appears to be
24:33
there, and under what conditions do we use the word brainwashing to label what
24:38
has happened. We've kind of unpacked a little bit the second one, and
24:41
we want to go more into that a little bit later. But I think
24:42
this is starting to get into more of the first one, which is what
24:47
conditions create the circumstances of sort of altered behavior, if you will, in
24:52
order to kind of, I guess, set the occasion for this idea of
24:56
brainwashing to occur. There are essentially two different ways, two different contexts in
25:00
which they do this, and it's either going to be through social influence or
25:03
isolation and dependency. Through social influence, this describes a process that exposes the
25:07
individual to change based on large groups of others and what they're doing, and
25:11
there's kind of a model for what's expected of the victim and they are pressured
25:15
or influenced by larger social groups. This is often seen in cults where somebody
25:18
I mean religions is what I meant to say, like scientology, where somebody
25:22
gets in and they are pressured by their peers in that group, and there's
25:26
other things that happen within that, but there's kind of a large group of
25:30
people engaging in a certain behavior and then you get kind of othered out until
25:33
you start engaging the same behaviors. Right, and the other as you mentioned,
25:37
isolation and dependency. Again, these are not mutually exclusive. These go
25:41
together. Yeah, And this is another tactic that effectively isolates a victim from
25:45
their loved ones, their social networks, that makes them dependent on either the
25:49
person who's doing the brainwashing or the entire group as a whole to which they
25:52
now belong. Right. And then the person who again is sort of a
25:56
controlling agent, the brainwasher, if you will, is a well will specifically
26:00
not as able to but they will specifically dictate and use coercive action to control
26:06
the victims sleeping, eating, toilet use, and other basic needs. And
26:11
I mean you also see this and abusers and like spousal espousal abuse or partner
26:15
abuse, where they will also do this. They'll control the very things that
26:21
they do as part of their daily actions. And yeah, as you said,
26:23
cults are a really good example of this, good in the sense that
26:26
they are a relatively comprehensive example. But yeah, that's the isolation piece can
26:32
be really important because it essentially allows them to create a new insulated social network
26:37
that dictates the kinds of things that you say and believe. And it's like
26:41
a microculture, if you will, that highly governs the path that you're on,
26:45
right absolutely, And so one thing that we here at why we do
26:48
what we do. We don't believe in isolating people. So what we would
26:52
ask you to do is, while you're listening to this episode, please share
26:56
with your friends so that they can also hear these ads. And we're back.
27:08
Yay, Welcome to the Group of non isolationists inclusive group that is the
27:15
podcast. Now that we understand the context of how brainwashing sort of takes place
27:19
and sort of the strategies often used there and let's talk about the steps that
27:22
are used that are described in how to quote unquote brainwash someone. So psychologist
27:29
Robert J. Liften studied POW's which for those of you who see those flags
27:33
around it stands for prisoners of war. You probably know that, but just
27:37
in case you weren't sure, these POWs from Korean and Chinese war camps and
27:41
determined that brainwashing occurs in a series of steps. This is based on the
27:45
description from those in the camps. So this is not a like, empirically
27:49
tested, scientifically validated description of what's happening. This is just sort of a
27:56
collection of narratives to help give some description to it. And obviously we wouldn't
28:00
want to empirically test this because this would be there would be a lot of
28:03
damage done, it'd be really hinhally unethical. We're not going to test this
28:07
on people because it's bad and we don't want to do bad things to people,
28:11
and so all we really have to go in anyway is the stories that
28:14
they have, and that's fine I think for understanding what it is. I
28:17
think the best we can do essentially is do a post talk descriptive analysis to
28:22
try and prevent these things. In the future more than I would ever and
28:26
I would never, to be clear, recommends that we try and do like
28:30
experimentation with this right absolutely so. There are three basic steps or basic stages
28:37
of brainwashing that are commonly discussed. The first one is going to be breaking
28:40
down the self, and essentially what happens here is that through isolation and deprivation
28:45
and manipulation, the brainwasher works to make someone question their identity. And there
28:48
are four kind of tactics underneath that. Basically, they assault the identity,
28:52
they make that person feel guilty about certain things. There's self betrayal, where
28:56
the person starts kind of like questioning their own their own identity to own things
29:00
that they've done. And then there's a breaking point where the person ultimately ends
29:04
up asking the question of who am I like? Who am I to have
29:07
like? And a lot of those questions kind of in that space are like,
29:11
I can't believe that you let your friends die. I can't believe that
29:15
you would follow a belief where you know this could put your family at risk.
29:21
It's like all of these things that kind of make the person feel really
29:25
bad about who they are and the things they do in their belief systems and
29:29
kind of breaks it down and makes it more malleable so that they can go
29:30
into ways to get out of that. So once you have done that,
29:36
you have sort of you have cracked the foundation. You have made them question
29:40
everything about themselves, who they are, and what they stand for and what
29:42
their values are, et cetera. Now you then offer the possibility of salvation,
29:48
so the brainwasher gets to play good cop. They can be kinder,
29:52
offering basic necessities, showing that things don't have to be so bad. Once
29:56
they've sort of broken your spirit, now there's like, hey, I am
30:00
your path, come with me. The brainwasher has an opportunity to confess.
30:04
They might share some guilt and confess that the person had been wrong previously.
30:11
This is essentially the bridge work that they use to get to the following steps
30:14
that we'll get to. So using guilt is an important tactic here as well.
30:18
They'll essentially take the feeling of undirected guilt and direct it. They give
30:22
the victim an opportunity to release that guilt through denouncing their previous beliefs. They
30:27
basically get them to say out loud, the thing that I used to believe
30:33
is wrong and bad. The thing that I used to value is wrong and
30:34
bad. The systems that I cherished and held true or wrong and bad,
30:38
I am was incorrect and I feel bad about that. Where do I go
30:44
from here? Right? And that's what leads to the last step of this,
30:48
or the last stage of this, which is rebuilding the self. And
30:49
so the person's essentially been torturated into a state of blank confusion at this point
30:53
in time, like they have been broken down, they've been starved, they've
30:56
been sleep deprived, they've had all these experiences, and then the brainwasher starts
31:02
using language to help rebuild that person's kind of belief systems. The brainwasher will
31:07
use language to guide the person toward that new belief system, whatever it might
31:10
be. Abuses stopped per se, like the actual deprivation states and the isolation
31:15
and stuff has kind of stopped. And then what ends up happening is the
31:18
brainwasher starts rewarding that person who's been brainwashed, the victim. They start rewarding
31:23
them for displays that align with the new worldview. And so this stage eventually
31:30
ends with this idea of a final confession, and that person disavowlans everything they
31:34
previously believed and they adopt the new system and they are welcomed into the group.
31:38
And so that's when kind of the social modeling starts to take place,
31:41
after they've been isolated, broken down, and then now they're brought back into
31:45
a new social model. Now a lot of this has been sort of I
31:48
mean, I feel like it's easy enough to understand and sort of common parlance,
31:52
if you will, And I think that we'll do more breaking this down
31:55
in a sort of more rigorous, skeptical behavioral scientific way of thinking about and
32:00
talking about it. And I think just a brief summary here is just to
32:05
say, essentially what they do is they use a lot of coercive and aversive
32:10
manipulation to then make you miserable, then offer themselves as a path to make
32:17
you happy again, and essentially they just reward all the things that you do
32:22
that are in line with those expectations. This actually is not terribly different in
32:28
a way from we talked about Stockholm syndrome a long time ago in a previous
32:30
episode which we also landed I think in a somewhat similar place that that we
32:34
will with this one, which was that like the extent to which this seems
32:37
to occur is probably a little out of proportion, but it is the fact
32:43
that, like when you're in a situation where things have been really miserable for
32:46
you and someone then is creating a much more pleasant environment by basically doing what
32:52
they ask of you, Like, yeah, people are going to go that
32:55
way. I think if it's fully expected that they will the extent to which
33:00
they really believe it, it will be impossible to really determine. But let's
33:04
let's talk through some we'll get more into that. Let's talk through some famous
33:07
examples here. I think when people think about brainwashing, there are a lot
33:09
of different examples that come up, and I feel like we had to talk
33:13
about a couple that are more in like the cultural guys that people are aware
33:16
of and maybe kind of unpacked us a little bit. So first, as
33:20
Charles Manson, and we go back to the idea of mk ultra and the
33:23
mind control experiments and stuff. He may have been directly involved in mk ultra
33:28
program and some brainwashing experiments during his time in prison. There's the thought that
33:31
he was part of that, and this was before he was out and prior
33:37
to the Manson family murders, and so he had already been exposed to some
33:40
of this stuff before he was out on release and created the cult that he
33:45
ended up kind of guiding for a little bit. Whoop, see, Yeah,
33:49
they didn't go well. Ted Kazinski. He spent nearly two hundred hours
33:52
in a potential branch of the mk Ultra project, which had lasting effects on
33:58
his well been The experiments were quote purposely brutalizing psychological experiments end quote. Conducted
34:04
at Harvard. Ted Kazinski made famous for being the unibomber who lived in the
34:07
woods as a hermit and made homemade bombs that he sent to people. Yes,
34:12
which don't do that. It's bad. Yeah, don't do that.
34:15
That's really bad. And that's not conjecture, Like that's like a well documented
34:19
experience, like you was at Harvard studying and was So if you're a grad
34:23
student listening to this and you're on campus and you get asked to join an
34:28
experiment, just ask the question is this MK ultra before you sign up?
34:32
Yeah, how much aversive controller are you using? Yeah, because they have
34:36
to tell you right, Yeah, sure, But that's actually well document thing.
34:38
It's not as much of like maybe like a hypothesis like with Charles Manson,
34:44
like it's actually it's actually there, Yanks. Another example of something that
34:47
really happened was Patty Hurst. Patty Hurst was kidnapped by the Symbionese Liberation Army
34:52
and she was reportedly kept in isolation and tortured until she came to sympathize with
34:55
her captors and engage in various bank robberies for which she would be trying.
35:00
She was eventually fully pardoned for the crimes. And she had used brainwashing and
35:04
Stockholm syndrome, as Abraham just mentioned. Yeah, and she used those as
35:07
a defense, a legal defense for getting out of those crimes. Yeah,
35:12
exactly. Yeah, we've covered that and probably will again and have done so
35:15
here today. Yeah. The Manchurian Candidate. This is actually I've never seen
35:19
this movie or read this book. I feel like I need to. I
35:22
haven't either, and I've always heard it's really good. Okay, Well,
35:24
for those of you who are familiar or not, we're going to do a
35:27
quick summary. This is originally a novel written in nineteen fifty nine, the
35:30
story of the Manchuria candidacies and American soldier captured in brainwashed to assassinate anyone they
35:36
are directed to kill, sort of a sleeper agent. I think, if
35:38
you will, this brainwashing is also part of a hypnosis process with a specific
35:43
trigger to set the sleeper agent off. I think they do this a lot
35:46
in several spy movies. There's like the secret phrase. They'll like, you'll
35:51
get a telegraph or get a phone call. That's like the orange is wearing
35:54
a purple jumpsuit in the telephone booth. And then they're like, most girl,
35:59
this sort of the idea here. They even do it in Zuelander.
36:02
That's right, they do it in Zoolander. This is why Tony Stark calls
36:06
the Winter Soldier Manchurian candidate and one of the movies, because his whole thing
36:09
is that they can read a series of words and he will be triggered to
36:14
follow directives and only speak Russian. Yeah, it's a it's a wild time,
36:17
but it's actually one of the more famous, like fictional examples of it.
36:21
It's kind of one of those things. It's very much so used to
36:23
if you look at like the Manchurian candidate, right, like the terms are
36:28
very like Eastern Asian, like he was a prisoner of war, he was
36:31
brainwashed, and it's used as an assassination. Like it's it's another kind of
36:36
fear mongering discussion based on the fears of the time, right, a nineteen
36:38
fifty nine novel that is totally writing about the fears that the public had at
36:43
the time. Why is there xenophobia and racism everywhere? Yeah, you know,
36:49
shocking, right escape it. Yeah, it's like even like great fictional
36:52
stories end up using that as like a plot device. Unfortunately, you know,
36:57
like, yeah, you can easily do that with like a soldier who
37:00
had gone rogue, Like the United States government, like you know, tortured
37:04
somebody as part of a speaker program, and there's somebody they didn't have to
37:07
be Chinese government involved in that at all, right, Like this example,
37:13
So in nineteen eighty four, after Winston is captured for his betrayal of the
37:16
state. If you're not familiar with the book, the book nineteen eighty four
37:19
by George orwell, yeah, this is the year or the movie not the
37:21
book. Yeah, yeah, spoiler alert if you have not read this book
37:23
or seen the movie or anything like that. Yeah, this book is what
37:27
seventy years old now, yeah, it's an older one for sure. So
37:30
Winston has captured for his betrayal of the State, and goes through a lengthy
37:35
interrogation in torture sequence where he is eventually where he eventually turns on Julia,
37:37
which was his love interest and somebody that he said he would never turn on,
37:43
and after an extended period of time, he's released and states that he
37:45
has come to love Big Brother and love the state to what degree he believes
37:49
that that's a different conversation, but he's effectively kind of washed of all of
37:52
his previous rebellious beliefs and now is back in love with the State. There's
37:57
a somewhat similar theme, if you Will to Brave New World, which is
38:01
obviously often and obviously for obvious reasons, mentioned in the same discussion as nineteen
38:07
eighty four. It basically takes the same idea controlling the masses, but does
38:12
it through a more like medication means than a coercive means to some amount of
38:15
sort of like trying to incentivize, I think, but it's largely medication,
38:20
but the same ideas, like they sort of will drug them, they breed
38:22
them in a very specific way so that they are these sort of obedient lemmings,
38:27
as it were, right and then of course, another very famous story
38:30
Clockwork Orange by Anthony Burgess. I think it's Burgess. Yeah. And then
38:36
the infamous movie directed by Stanley Kubrick. And just as a side note,
38:40
love Stanley Kubrick. Love that movie. The book is much better. Yes,
38:45
definitely agreed, Go read the book. It's I mean, the movie's
38:50
fine, Like it's great, it's super well done, but I think it
38:52
lacks the actual arc and narrative storytelling that is captured so incredibly well in the
38:59
books. Right, definitely took the book anyway. This follows the story of
39:02
a character named Alex Delarge and his friends go on a romp through Britain where
39:07
they engage in some ultra violence. Now this is not something that is generally
39:10
tolerated, so he is caught and eventually arrested. He agrees to, as
39:15
part of his plea deal or some kind of deal, to an experiment that
39:19
includes being drugged and forced to watch films full of sex and violence paired with
39:24
Beethoven. Huh, and the whole idea just in here not to is again
39:30
spoiling a very old work of fish. The idea here is essentially to sort
39:35
of using Pavlovian conditioning see our pavlov episode to condition to him to have a
39:40
visceral, disgusted reaction to violence, so that if he were to try and
39:45
do something violent or nefarious or delinquent, he would actually feel sick to the
39:51
point of being in pain. And he does. I mean, like whenever
39:53
he hears Beethoven or whenever he sees violence, he throws up and he's sick,
39:58
and it's you know, I think that's more of an example of you
40:01
know, Pavlovian respondent conditioning than it is like an example of brainwashing, but
40:06
it's often used as an example of how brainwashing could work, Yeah, or
40:09
some of the tactics that might be used as part of that. You know
40:12
what, Honestly, what makes me sick and revolted to the point of vomiting
40:16
is ads. Okay. I think we've unpacked a lot of the sort of
40:25
the more colloquial understanding of this, bringing in the discussion that you would find
40:30
from most people in most circles. But there is like a part of this
40:34
discussion that we tend to orient to and cling to and enjoy the most because
40:37
we feel it is the most parsimonious, the most scientific, and that is
40:42
a sort of behavioral understanding of what's going on here. Yes, so here's
40:46
where the research comes in. James in nineteen eighty six. Provided this is
40:51
their last name, James is well not just a person named James. I
40:52
mean they could have been named James, you know, the James. They're
40:57
just like Beyonce. It's just or share. This person who has one name.
41:00
Their name is James. Everybody knows James. Yeah, everybody knows James.
41:04
James eighty six provides a great discussion on how the lore of brainwashing can
41:07
quickly outgrow the truth and despite what we know about attempts at brainwashing and all
41:12
that, the term was clearly used as a propaganda scare tactic rather than something
41:16
that could actually happen the way is described. And so they basically kind of
41:21
broke down how the propaganda kind of caught fire and took off versus like the
41:24
actual discussions in the empirical evidence and basically saying they did. In the line
41:29
yeah tech Dear twenty twenty, again, author discusses how indoctrination and brainwashing might
41:35
be directly related to terrorism. More specifically, they focus on the idea of
41:39
suicide bombing. I think anything that sort of kamakaze ish if you will,
41:43
the a suicide mission to inflict terror, but specifically suicide bombing and Sarah Baiah
41:49
in twenty eighteen. The study highlights specific factors on how indoctrination occurred for members
41:53
of the suicide bombing group, that they may have contributed to the development of
41:58
radical ideological beliefs, and they also cite isolation for these participants as a key
42:04
factor in priming those bombers for the indoctrination to be willing to sacrifice themselves for
42:12
this cause, right, And I thought that was a pretty interesting case study
42:15
on this particular topic. Sure sessions in Doherty and twenty twenty one actually compares
42:21
the use of course of control and brainwashing techniques to the rise of cults,
42:24
So you start seeing kind of the discussion around that, which is, you
42:27
know, why the cult thing comes up a lot. The use of physical
42:30
and linguistic techniques and cults closely mirrors descriptions of brainwashing in other cases. However,
42:35
they also argued that the existence of brainwashing might have led to cult stereotypes
42:38
and quote unquote cultic brainwashing, making this area of study a little bit more
42:44
complex and a little bit muddy. So basically they were saying that cults seem
42:46
to do all the things that are described as brainwashing. It seems to be
42:50
effective for those people that are in there. However, we don't really know
42:53
if it's this, that or the other because of kind of how those terms
42:57
get conflated. Right. Mckenti twenty twenty three is an interesting analysis of the
43:01
brainwash scares that were occurring during the Cold War and specifically citing a clockwork orange,
43:07
they discuss how literature began to emerge in direct relation to the scare,
43:12
the idea of brainwashing as it being used as propaganda. And we see this
43:15
kind of thing occur in media consistently, depending on whatever the scare of the
43:20
moment is. You can see our Satanic panic episode for an example. Yeah
43:22
you've got QAnon, you've got Newsmax, you've got these bright bart Basically,
43:28
these groups of people who their whole point is to scare people, and often
43:31
they will use the specific line as part of their rhetoric. X group of
43:37
people is trying to turn you into this. They're trying to take this away
43:40
from you. They're trying to convert you into They're trying to make everyone gay,
43:44
they're trying to make everybody sterile, they're trying to lower testosterone, they're
43:47
trying to take away your freedom. Whatever it is, it's the same exact
43:52
playbook. They just dress it up with a little something a little bit different.
43:55
But the PR teams know that it works, so they just keep using
43:59
it. It works on some people, So it's been effective in getting people
44:02
to let's say, to the capitol on like, I don't know, let's
44:06
pick a random date, January sixth or something like. So, yeah,
44:12
anyway, the part that we like, and I think there are, you
44:15
know, a lot of ways to look at this, but I think we
44:16
always kind of go with a more parsimonious viewpoint on this, and so I
44:20
think it's worth unpacking some of the behavioral components to the brainwashing process that might
44:24
make it kind of seem like that might get behavior to change in the way
44:30
that people describe when they're describing brainwashing. So, yeah, first, is
44:32
this kind of condition of deprivation and satiation. Basically, what is happening is
44:37
when you strip somebody down and strip them away from all of their basic needs,
44:42
and brainwashers are in control of that they're creating this huge motivation for those
44:45
things. If you're thirsty, there's a point where you'll just kind of do
44:50
or say anything to get a cup of water. So and that's kind of
44:52
where it starts, like, Okay, I'm going to withhold water for a
44:54
period of time, and then when you're thirsty enough and you say what I
44:58
want you to say, then you can have some water. And that condition
45:00
of kind of being deprived of something and having control over whatever those deliverable things
45:05
are, that condition makes it very easy to get people to do things you
45:07
want. Whether they believe it versus what they're doing or two different conversations,
45:12
but at least they're doing the thing that the brainwasher wants, and now there's
45:15
a path towards reward. Another element that we've we've sort of briefly mentioned is
45:20
the idea of social influence, and part of that sort of being modeling,
45:23
which is to say, not going down a runway in a particular outfit,
45:28
but demonstrating through your own actions the kind of things that you would like to
45:32
see other people do. Plenty of studies show that the majority of people will
45:37
sort of quote unquote go with the grain, so to speak. If everyone
45:42
around you is doing something, you're more likely to do it. And we've
45:45
talked about this in a few other places as well, and that essentially you
45:49
can sort of guide people's behavior if you were to organize this sort of how
45:52
flash mobs have kind of done this a little bit. If you organize a
45:54
group of people in a place to do a particular thing, particularly if it's
45:59
not I've said the particularly a lot, especially if it's not that outlandish of
46:02
a thing. Let's just say, for example, you got like one hundred
46:07
and fifty people together and they went to a crowded place like I don't know
46:10
if malls are still a thing. Let's say I'm all maybe maybe some other
46:14
like a Walmart or something, and you get all these people that all of
46:15
a sudden they just turn and start heading one direction at a relatively high speed.
46:20
The people who are around them, who are not part of that group
46:22
very well may get in on the going whatever that direction is at that particular
46:28
speed, and they might rationalize it in any number of ways. Oh there's
46:30
something over here I need to get Oh there's something over there I need to
46:34
get away from. Oh, like something's going on, I need to just
46:36
get in with what's happening and figure it out. Or this looks like what
46:39
people are supposed to do right now, so I'm going to do it.
46:42
Who goes it doesn't matter, the point is that when you're around other people
46:45
who are doing a thing, they help set the context for what is considered
46:51
acceptable appropriate behavior in that situation, And the more embedded you are in that
46:54
situation, the more common and expected that those patterns of behavior seem. Unless
47:01
you're a contrarian like me, uh huh, that's true. You will see
47:05
a group of people running the one way and you'll go nah, yes,
47:07
ever the iconoclast. Yeah. Now, there's also contingencies of punishment and reinforcement,
47:14
or as we like to say, kind of like pain and discomfort or
47:16
reward. If the conditions we described as part of this, in those conditions,
47:21
it feels like it would be pretty easy to set up rewards for attitude
47:23
changes if we wanted to, and then punish anything that didn't align with that.
47:27
So, oh uh, you still want to fight with us? No
47:29
food for today? Oh you want food? I'll give you food for following
47:31
my orders today. I brainwashed you with pizza And it was that easy.
47:35
Oh, that's how they did it. That's how I got into the world
47:37
of psychology is with pizza. That's right. It's one of those things where
47:42
if the person that is in power has total control over the basic necessities kind
47:47
of kind of going back to satiation and deprivation, and they are doling out
47:51
rewards for things they want to see, that's the easiest, the easiest context
47:55
to shape behavior towards kind of what brainwashers want to have happened. Yeah,
48:00
just as we said, create the situation of desperation, create deprivation, offer
48:05
the incentive for doing the thing that you want, demonstrate the thing that you
48:07
want, create that context so it becomes the norm. And yeah, all
48:12
of this is part of a system of coercive control. And we've mentioned that
48:15
a lot, but you know, course of control. Just a little more
48:17
unpacking here is something that unfortunately exists in many parts of our world. Many
48:22
people have said, and I think that they're right, that we live in
48:25
a negative reinforcement world, meaning most, if not I guess most is what
48:30
the word here, because it's not all, but most of the things that
48:32
we do are to avoid aversive consequences for not doing those things. If something
48:38
is painful or aversive. We want to avoid it. If you continue to
48:43
threaten me with those things, I will listen to you just to avoid them.
48:45
If you have that level of control. Right, the brainwashers here,
48:50
the control agents, They hold the keys, and because they do, they
48:52
can threaten others into saying and doing what they want them to say and do.
48:57
And if you let that happen long enough, you are affectively conditioning a
49:00
pattern of behavior that becomes relatively difficult to escape. So I think if we
49:05
ask the question like, can brainwashing happen? A different way to phrase that
49:09
is, can you manipulate circumstances, contingencies, reinforcements, and punishments effectively enough
49:19
to drive the kind of behavior as you want to see? Yeah? I
49:22
mean, arguably that is the world we live in every day. The things
49:27
that we do and the choices that we make are shaped by our environment,
49:30
which is full of positives and negatives. They're full of the good and the
49:35
bad, and we make decisions based on that. Now, it's a lot
49:38
of chaos. It's not super well controlled. Like, I don't think there's
49:42
anyone who has enough power to pull the strings to make it so that let's
49:45
say, for example, this thing feels good or sounds good, or tastes
49:49
good or tastes bad, or it feels bad or sounds bad. I'm like,
49:52
that's going to be some of your subjective experience. But nevertheless, you're
49:55
going to organize your behavior around that thing. Going to show up on time
50:00
so that you don't get in trouble for being late to work. You're going
50:04
to pay your taxes so that you don't get investigated by the irs. You
50:07
are going to drive the speed limit so that you don't get a ticket.
50:09
And those are I mean just human intervention things. You're also not probably going
50:14
to set your head on fire because you don't want your face to melt.
50:16
Fair Like, there are lots of things that we do for practical coercive reasons
50:22
as well, So like that is the world we live in. And yeah,
50:24
you could control those enough to get a pretty significant amount of influence over
50:29
how someone then chooses their own organization of their behavior and whether or not they
50:32
believe it. Again, that gets into what does belief mean, because an
50:37
enormous amount of when we talk about belief is just based on our own language
50:39
and how we then choose to I guess talk about things and the choices that
50:45
we make that are in with respect to those things. But even then,
50:47
like, how do you then rule out, well, was this the coerceive
50:51
control that was orchestrated by another person? I don't know. As I said,
50:55
I think if the question rephrased is can you manipulate one's environment enough to
51:00
get them to behave in the way you want them to? Yes, probably
51:05
for the most part, depending on like how severe the thing is that you
51:07
want them to do and how difficult it is that you want the thing that
51:12
you want them to do. If it's relatively and like, not that difficult,
51:15
not that bad. Like if all it was was you were like trying
51:17
to get someone to I don't know, pickpocket somebody, you could probably get
51:22
there. That one's like a relatively low stake sort of thing, it's not
51:25
all that difficult. But if you wanted to like get someone to like kill
51:30
their whole family, that one's a lot harder. I mean, you can
51:32
probably get there, but it's gonna be a lot harder. All of that
51:35
also is to say, like, don't do this to anybody on our base,
51:38
like it is not nice. Yeah, this is terrible. We don't
51:43
advocate for it, and also acknowledging we live in sort of a world where
51:47
there are a lot of a verse of circumstances that guide our behavior, whether
51:51
or not the orchestrated by another person. There's just the plain reality to it,
51:53
and that's honestly part of evolution, Like we evolved to be sensitive to
51:58
the things that are that are horrible to us, right, and then therefore
52:00
change our behavior around that. So some people capitalized on that exactly exactly.
52:05
There is one other piece, though, which is also the like, under
52:07
what conditions do we call behavior brainwashed? And we don't need to go into
52:10
that super deep, but suffice it to say that I think that term is
52:14
often applied in situations where it's just propaganda, as you said, yeah,
52:19
and I think it's to describe someone else's behavior is different than it used to
52:24
be in a way that I don't like, right. I think that is
52:29
when we see that or someone else is doing something that I wouldn't like if
52:35
I don't know them, I don't know if it's different, but someone is
52:37
doing something in a way that I don't agree with and I don't like.
52:40
That might be another condition under which people use the term brainwashing. So using
52:45
the term is more of a I feel better about being opposed to what that
52:52
person thinks, feels, and does by calling them brainwashed, and I feel
52:57
righteously justified in being angry at that. And the people are controlling them by
53:01
saying that they're brainwashed, right, And that's I think the conditions into which
53:05
we use that term, and it is not scientific, it is not helpful,
53:08
and it is actually a way of avoiding responsibility for self reflection on how
53:15
we are and how we feel about those people in the situations. Right.
53:17
Well, and I was going to say too, like I think that to
53:20
that point. Another term that gets used in that as indoctrination. So like
53:22
whatever you hear people say, like whenever they kind of throw out the term
53:25
indoctrination the way that people do today, at least in the United States,
53:30
it's similar to brainwashing in that I can attribute this thing, this change is
53:35
behavior that I don't like, to something that is bad, right, because
53:37
indoctrination has taken the context of like, oh, this is a bad thing,
53:42
And really, when you understand it, indoctrination and brainwashing are two different
53:45
things. By definition, Indoctrination is the process of teaching a person or group
53:49
to accept a set of beliefs uncritically, because essentially what you're doing is you're
53:52
intentionally failing to teach critical thinking skills by limiting information and kind of like avoiding
53:59
provide the alternative sides or having the discussions or the skills to have the discussions.
54:04
Brainwashing is that's where it includes torture, deprivation, all of those things
54:07
some kind of verse of control, and doctrination doesn't have the averse of control,
54:12
but basically it's levels, right, like I am providing information, I'm
54:15
doing something. I'm arranging a context for you to follow up or believe in
54:19
a certain belief system or attitude, or like engage in a certain set of
54:22
behaviors. The difference is in doctrination is just limiting information where and kind of
54:27
presenting singular views, where brainwashing is like the averse of control part. That
54:31
is such a massively important point that you just made, and I'm really glad
54:35
you did because I was just thinking that of Like, there are also these
54:38
situations where someone's essentially their entire upbringing is around or primarily around a set of
54:46
language that espouses views and beliefs that then that person comes to adopt because that's
54:52
what they've been exposed to. And then I think falls more of the camp
54:54
of indoctrination, yes, and is not in the camp of brainwashing. And
54:58
that is also an important thing to talk about it at some point and maybe
55:01
unpack a little bit. But I think that I'm really glad that you made
55:05
that point, because you're exactly correct that. And then also is an important
55:07
distinction to be made in understanding what people mean when they say brainwashing, as
55:13
they're probably in some of the circumstances at least talking about indoctrination, right,
55:17
which I think is more of a shaping of one's attitudes, values, beliefs,
55:22
and language around a particular set of attitudes and beliefs. And as you
55:25
said, and I think massively critically important in that is that it is ischewing
55:30
and specifically avoiding teaching critical thinking right absolutely. Now, Another thing I think
55:36
we got to add too, and I think this is one of my most
55:38
favorite little tidbits on this, is that there are people that believe that Jim
55:42
Jones is actually alleged to be an enlisted experimenter of MK Ultra, so like
55:47
he wasn't like a victim or a subject. He was enlisted, supposedly he
55:52
was listed or allegedly he was listed enlisted by the US government to actually run
55:58
some of the MK Ultra and clearly that went awry. But that's an allegation
56:04
that's out there right now, which I thought was fascinating. Man, that
56:06
whole project was just like a cyclone of shit, wasn't it. Yeah,
56:09
that's yes, it's it was really bad, one of the many bad things.
56:12
Everyone on all sides failed. Yes, absolutely. I think we've said
56:15
more or less what we want to say about this. The concept of brainwashing
56:20
as it is commonly described does not really seem to exist, at least not
56:23
in the propaganda way that it has been used. Right, So it is
56:28
effectively social lore. We cannot wipe someone's memories or their attitudes without significant brain
56:34
damage, right. Instead, the extent to which it does exist, the
56:37
effects of brainwashing techniques are largely this use of sort of coosive control to shape
56:43
someone's general behaviors and things that they probably say, but it's also likely to
56:47
be short lived. Trauma related to attempts at brainwashing might be more significant and
56:52
long lasting, But the extent to which someone's behavior does follow that pattern,
56:57
are probably going to exist only as long as the context maintains them. Right,
57:01
once that is removed, once they're removed from that diversive environment, once
57:06
the brainwasher is no longer able to exert their control, then they will then
57:09
start having their behavior come back under the influence of what their previous circumstances or
57:15
their new circumstances will be. But the trauma can live on a long time,
57:19
unfortunately. Yeah, it's an unfortunate thing, but it is a thing
57:22
that does happen. That's where I would ultimately land is like it's a catchphrase
57:28
to describe a phenomenon that is really a complex set of behavioral contingencies used for
57:32
evil. Yeah. Absolutely, Well, unfortunately, we will have to do
57:37
a little bit of sharing the evil ourselves, as we're going to play one
57:42
more set of ads and then come back with some credits and recommendations. Yeah,
57:53
okay, we need to think all the people that help make this show
57:57
happen, and then after that we're going to if you're joining us for the
57:59
first time, welcome. We like to share some things that we love that
58:01
we think you might like too. Those are our recommendations. But first I
58:05
need to tell you that without our Patreon people, this podcast could not happen.
58:09
They are the best. We love them. They are what allows us
58:12
to continue doing what we do, and that is Mike, m Megan,
58:15
Leyla, Mike T, Justin, Kim, Joshua, Brad, Stephanie,
58:20
Olivia, Brian and Ashley. Thank you all so much. We appreciate you.
58:23
Y'all are the best. Of course, I could not do this without
58:27
my team Shane and myself do writing and fact checking, editing and production from
58:31
Justin Greenhouse, and our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson. And of course
58:36
without our listeners, the show would just be nothing. I mean, it
58:42
would just be a talking about which is I guess not nothing. Yeah,
58:45
I'd be a conversation, but we wouldn't have anybody who got to join us
58:47
in that conversation. So we appreciate all of you listeners for being here.
58:51
Thank you so much. You're the best. As I said, if you'd
58:52
like to support us, you can join that group of people on Patreon.
58:55
There you get access to bonus goodies and behind the scenes content. You can
59:00
us are rating and review anywhere you listen to podcasts, subscribe, share us
59:04
with a friend. We can pick up some merch at our merch store,
59:06
all the fun things. You can find out more about this episode by going
59:08
to our website. At some point I'll get it uploaded there. Mostly just
59:12
upload it to our distribution service. I've been a little behind on the website,
59:15
but you can find all of our past episodes there, at least or
59:16
a lot of them. Yeah. And then if you would like to tell
59:20
us about brainwashing or something that you found interesting in this episode that you learned
59:24
that you'd like to correct us on kindly, or any other piece of information,
59:29
you should email us directly at info at wwdwwdpodcast dot com or reach out
59:34
to us on the social media platforms. You can get ahold of us there
59:36
too, not the like Nazi ones, but the Nazi ones. I mean,
59:39
I guess there's probably Nazis, but they're not the primary driving force of
59:45
the platform. Like we're not on x slash, Twitter, we're not on
59:47
truth Social, none of the parlor, none of those. Anyway, you
59:51
can find us in the normal places. We'll be there. Yeah, And
59:53
I think that's it. Am I missing anything or is there anything you would
59:58
like to add before we get to a recommendation. No, I think that
1:00:00
covers it for this one. Awesome. Well, then I think it is
1:00:04
time for recommendations. Yay. I love recommendations, recommendations, So I am
1:00:16
recommending something that's a little bit out of my norm. For things that I
1:00:22
recommend, usually it's usually a show or a book or some music or something
1:00:24
like that, or maybe some food items. And this one does have food
1:00:28
items, but it also has a wonderful show. And that is an organization
1:00:30
called the Polynesian firelu Au. So they just opened a restaurant here in Daytona
1:00:37
down in our kind of our downtown area, which is on a street called
1:00:40
Beach Street, which I think is really fun that we have a street called
1:00:45
Beat Street which is like our main strip. Yeah, And it is a
1:00:49
dinner buffet with Hawaiian food and then a show where they kind of take you
1:00:53
through all of the Polynesia and not all the Polities isles, but so many
1:00:58
Polynesian islands like the Heat, the and have Ai and all that and kind
1:01:00
of do different show dances and fire twirling and all the stuff. Right kind
1:01:07
of like I would say, I don't want to call it standard fare like
1:01:09
Luau show, but it was a very cool show, and like they did
1:01:14
some really cool education stuff around like why some of the dances were the way
1:01:16
they were, and they got some really cool crowd participation. So they had
1:01:21
folks stand up and do the hakka with them, and they taught like the
1:01:23
different commands and the different words and what they meant and like what the meaning
1:01:27
of the gestures were and stuff like that. So there was some really cool
1:01:30
stuff to go with it, and it was a lot of fun. So
1:01:31
there's a video of me somewhere doing a hakka as part of this dance or
1:01:37
this this show as a crowd volunteer, and it was a lot of fun.
1:01:40
That's awesome. I love that. Yeah, that for you, and
1:01:43
it was. And also to be clear too, it's like run by people
1:01:46
from the Islands, like people who are like it's not like a bunch of
1:01:51
white folks came in and was like, hey, we're gonna do a politian
1:01:52
show. Like it's like it's like it's yeah, it's not like appropriated in
1:01:57
that way. Okay, that helps too. I appreciate that. Yeah,
1:02:00
for sure. I love learning about other cultures, so that's great. Yeah,
1:02:02
me too. All right, I'm recommending a show It's been done for
1:02:05
a while now, but I only finished it recently. This is Loki season
1:02:08
two, the Marvel TV show about the once villain turned hero Loki and his
1:02:15
travel through time. I guess is a way to put it. That's a
1:02:19
way to put it. Yeah, And so this is a TV show.
1:02:21
I think it's ten episodes long or eight episodes long streaming on Disney Plus.
1:02:24
You know, a lot of people I think were very highly critical of season
1:02:28
two. I really enjoyed it. I thought it was great. I did
1:02:30
not have a problem with the fact that Loki was much more a hero than
1:02:35
a villain. I did not have my problem with the fact that he was
1:02:38
using time travel in a kind of wonky way. I thought it was really
1:02:42
enjoyable and fun and it worked for me. So if you are those of
1:02:47
the complaints that others had, but yeah, I thought it was really fun.
1:02:51
I thought the performances were fantastic. If you are a fan of Marvel
1:02:53
content and Loki in particular, you could do a lot worse than Loki season
1:02:58
two. So that's my recommendation. Yeah, it was so fun. I
1:03:01
thought that show was so good. So yeah, I second that recommendation myself.
1:03:06
Cool, and honestly, I felt like by the time you get to
1:03:08
the last couple episodes, it's like, I don't know, it really had
1:03:13
me like captivated. I was like, what's going to happen next? And
1:03:15
how are they going to get out of that? And what are they going
1:03:16
to do? Yeah? Absolutely, I thought they did a good job with
1:03:20
that. So all right, I think that is all that I have to
1:03:22
say about Loki or brainwashing? Is everything else before you like to add before
1:03:27
we go? I think that's it perfect. All right. Well, then
1:03:29
again, thank you for listening. This is Abraham and this is Shane.
1:03:31
We're out. See yup, you've been listening to Why We Do What We
1:03:35
Do. You can learn more about this and other episodes by going to WWD
1:03:40
WWD podcast dot com. Thanks for listening, and we hope you have an
1:03:45
awesome day. Mo