Latest / Pharmacy Podcast Network / Winning Hearts, Minds, and Policy with Strategic Communications | PBM Reform

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Winning Hearts, Minds, and Policy with Strategic Communications | PBM Reform · Pharmacy Podcast Network

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: You are listening to the global network of podcasters dedicated
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: to the pharmacy profession. Welcome to the Pharmacy Podcast Network.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the PBM Reform Podcast, where we dive deep
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: into the world of pharmaceutical benefit management, cutting through the
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: noise to uncover the truth. Since twenty nineteen, we've been
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: your go to source for the latest on how PBMs
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: impact patient care, drug pricing, and the very future of pharmacy.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: Here we champion the role of pharmacists, the most knowledgeable
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: advocates for medication safety and expertise. Join us as we
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: expose and generate discussions that are reshaping healthcare and explore
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: how we build a better payment system which focuses on
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: advancing pharmacy care.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: Welcome to another episode of the PBM Reform Podcast here
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: on the Pharmacy Podcast Network. My name is Brett Rice
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: and I've been a community pharmacy advocate now for about
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: twenty three years. Love the industry, and on today's episode,
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: we're going to discuss one of the most important challenges
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: facing community pharmacy. Now across the country, independent pharmacies, state
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: pharmacy associations, and patient advocates are fighting for greater transparency,
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: fair reimbursements, and policies that protect patient access of care.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: But winning legislative battles requires more than just facts and data.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: It requires effective community. So joining us today on the podcast,
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: we have Maurice Retail with Reese call a farm d
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: retail pharmacist and expert in crafting messages, influencing stakeholders, and
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: building public support through social media. So welcome to the show. Maurice.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: How are you.
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: I'm good. I'm good. I'm excited to be here.
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: I was very happy when you reached out to me,
• 2:24
  Speaker 4: so I'm glad we were able to set this up
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: pretty quickly.
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: Well, you're on fire with your social media posts, and
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: that's where I found you and said, hey, we've got
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: to get you on You're singing to the same tune
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: that I preach to community pharmacy, and so I thought, man,
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: we've got to get together and get you on the
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: PBM Reform podcast. And I think, man, you're up to
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: over thirty seven thousand followers now on TikTok, so you're
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: doing a tremendous job there.
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you.
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: I've been trying to grow on TikTok. I've been trying
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: to grow on Instagram, on YouTube and Facebook as well.
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: Those have been kind of new YouTube and Facebook. But
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: we're at fifteen thousand on Instagram, twelve thousand on Facebook,
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: and eleven thousand on YouTube, so we're trying to grow
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: across all platforms. So it's been it's been fun.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's excellent. That's that's a tremendous following. I didn't
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: realize your YouTube following was that large, So you're probably
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: in one of the top one or two percent of
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: YouTubers now and there's a big drop off between the
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: mister beasts that have millions of hoos, but now one
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: thousand is a lot. Congratulations on that. So well, before
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: we get into today's interview, I want our listeners to
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: learn a little bit more about you personally, Maurice. So,
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: where did you grow up? I know you practice a
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: pharmacy there in Tennessee. You're in the Nashville area. Did
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: you grow up in Nashville?
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: No, So I am originally from Wisconsin, Lacrosse, Wisconsin. If
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: you're familiar with the area, that's where I grew up.
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: My parents met out there and my mom, she is
• 4:04
  Speaker 4: a nurse, So that's kind of how I got into healthcare.
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: But my dad, when I.
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: Was in about second or third grade, he was diagnosed
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: with a brain tumor. He passed away from it a
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: few short years after that, and so we moved to
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: Nashville or the Nashville area because my mom's family was
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: in this area. So that's kind of how I made
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: my migration in Nashville. And with her being a nurse
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: and honestly going to the hospital a bunch for his
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: visits and his treatments, I kind of became used to
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: that setting. And so I knew from a very young
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: age that I was going to go into healthcare. I
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: just didn't know what until I got a little bit older,
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: did some research and thought pharmacy sounded the most interesting.
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: So being in Tennessee, I went to the University of
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: Tennessee College of Pharmacy in Memphis.
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: Did my four years there.
• 4:56
  Speaker 4: I was an intern at a hospital, which is kind
• 4:59
  Speaker 4: of interesting because I was an intern at an outpatient
• 5:02
  Speaker 4: pharmacy in hospital, and so I saw I got to
• 5:05
  Speaker 4: experience probably some of the best things in pharmacy.
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: Because of that, we always had.
• 5:12
  Speaker 4: We had so many technicians, we had just a plethora
• 5:15
  Speaker 4: of technicians. We had multiple pharmacists working with overlap. We
• 5:19
  Speaker 4: had about maybe six to ten interns, and we weren't
• 5:25
  Speaker 4: even We were filling a lot of prescriptions, but not
• 5:27
  Speaker 4: anything crazy, to be honest. And so when I left there,
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: I moved back to Nashville. I moved back to Nashville
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: because that's where I'm from, and I got my first
• 5:37
  Speaker 4: job at a retail pharmacy, and I had never really
• 5:42
  Speaker 4: had experience working in the community pharmacy outside of that.
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: Hospital, so it was kind of a culture shock.
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  Speaker 4: One pharmacist, no chairs, limited technician help, not what I
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: was used to, and so I just kept it wasn't
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: where I wanted to be, and so I just you know,
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: up to work on time, was friendly to the technicians,
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: was friendly to my co workers, it was easy to
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: work with, and I leveraged that to get new positions,
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: which ultimately led me to the where I'm at right now,
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: which is an outpatient pharmacy in a hospital, just like
• 6:15
  Speaker 4: I started in pharmacy school. So it's kind of comfortable
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: circle and I'm glad I ended up there. But that
• 6:20
  Speaker 4: is how my pharmacy journey's panned out. It's spent about
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: five years since I've since I've graduated.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: Okay, wow, So still in that short amount of time
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: five years, you've done quite a bit, accomplished quite a bit,
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: and you experience behind the bench at a true community pharmacy,
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: you know, retail setting and now in outpatient pharmacy setting
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: as well, which you admitted that's where you started originally.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: So you know, I do have to ask the question
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: how old were you when you moved from Wisconsin down
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: because you know that was you know, moving from north
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: of the Mason Dixon line. So that's a big deal
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: to people in Tennessee.
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, I was ten turning eleven when.
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: I moving to to Tennessee, and it was definitely a
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: culture shock for sure. I don't have I don't think
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: I have much of an accent from Tennessee. I say
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: things like you all, so you can kind of pinpoint
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: me in the South when I talk like that. But overall,
• 7:22
  Speaker 4: I think my my cadence comes from living in Wisconsin.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah yeah? And how many times have people blessed
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: your heart there in Tennessee? Oh? Bless his heart?
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: So every day, every day?
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: Excellent? What got you interested in social media? How did
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: you get started.
• 7:40
  Speaker 4: There, so I have been It's funny, I don't I
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: didn't start getting on TikTok really until I started posting
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: on social media.
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: I've always had an Instagram.
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: I've always loved watching content on YouTube, not pharmacy based content,
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: really like movies and video games, things I'm I'm into
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: outside of work. And then on TikTok I started to
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: scroll on there a little bit more than the past
• 8:08
  Speaker 4: about two years ago, and I saw pharmacy content creators,
• 8:12
  Speaker 4: and I saw a lot of things that were being
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: talked about that I agreed with, and I felt that
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: there were also parts that, you know, I had a
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: voice about as well, that I was not saying being
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: talked about. I also saw an angle where nobody was
• 8:28
  Speaker 4: talking about, you know, how to succeed in a retail pharmacy,
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: what you should do once you get hired, how you
• 8:36
  Speaker 4: should treat your staff, how you should treat people you
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: work with, how you pivot to different positions. Because my
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: career has been full of changing jobs, I've had about
• 8:45
  Speaker 4: five jobs in five years, which I don't think is
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: too typical, So I thought that I could leverage that
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: and teach people about how to transition in that sense.
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: But what my social media's turned into now was never
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: the original plan. I never planned on talking about PBM reform.
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: I never planned on talking about work conditions, none of that.
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: Now. It wasn't because I didn't believe in it. I
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: just wasn't. I really didn't think about it.
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: I thought that my thoughts that I had about it
• 9:15
  Speaker 4: were my own thoughts. I wasn't sure what the rest
• 9:18
  Speaker 4: of the world thought about it until I made one
• 9:21
  Speaker 4: singular post about the conditions at my first job, which
• 9:25
  Speaker 4: was Walgreens. And I basically start off with we spend
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: all this time advocating in pharmacy school and pharmacy and
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: advocating for provider status and advocating for expanding our roles
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: as pharmacists and all these things, and crazy I walk
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: into to a pharmacy and all of a sudden, I
• 9:42
  Speaker 4: don't have a chair to sit in. I'm not taking
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: lunch breaks, like very basic human decency things that we
• 9:49
  Speaker 4: just didn't discuss. And that video was like my first
• 9:52
  Speaker 4: video that blew up, and I was like, okay, people, okay,
• 9:55
  Speaker 4: people agree with me. So it kind of snowballed from
• 9:58
  Speaker 4: there and then yeah, that's kind of like how I
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: got to where I'm at.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: But at least you were at a box store that
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: had other technicians so that you didn't have to hang
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: up a little sign that says I'll be back in
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: five minutes just to have a bio break. So, yeah,
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: a lot of the you know, some of our grocery
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: store change where it's you know, it's a one man
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: showback there trying to run things.
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and my wife, she's a pharmacist as well, and
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: she worked retail when she first started, and she she
• 10:29
  Speaker 4: had it worse than me. She was a pharmacy manager
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: and she oftentimes was battling with her corporate about staffing.
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: They wanted her to staff so many times, like they
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: wanted her to staff a lot by herself or give
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: for just one technician with zero overlapping technician hours throughout
• 10:47
  Speaker 4: the day.
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: And they had a walk.
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: Up window, they had, you know, everything that the pharmacy has,
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: and you just can't operate that way. And I watched
• 10:54
  Speaker 4: her fight and fight with her with her with the
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: corporation essentially about now. So I'm not scheduling myself with
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: no help on Saturday. It's just not happening. And she didn't,
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: she never did, but it was it was a battle
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: every single week. And so I take that into account too,
• 11:10
  Speaker 4: because I luckily I had I've been in some bad spots,
• 11:14
  Speaker 4: but I never had to experience that side of it.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so that one post went viral, and that's what
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: kind of launched your pathway into social media saying, well,
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: I guess this is an important topic and more people
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: want to hear about it. And that's usually what happens,
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: you know, it's just that one post that they get
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: some traction, people start commenting, which then more people see,
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: and then more comments and then more people see it.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: So congratulations on that. And you know, many pharmacy leaders
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: are focusing on the legislative and lobbying in side, But
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: why do you think strategic communication like you're doing on
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: social media is equally as important.
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: Well, it's a a lot of people get their information
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: from social media these days. And I think the best
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: example I can give is the Fair Pharmacy Act in Tennessee.
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: When that was being pushed through before it.
• 12:13
  Speaker 4: Got approved, they're you know, I don't know the companies
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: that were funding this, but you can probably imagine that
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: they were having influencers post pro PBM propaganda essentially, and
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: they would hire all these people and they had about.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: You don't need to mention any any names, but you
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: know initials like CBS are okay, you could.
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, right, And you have all these people.
• 12:42
  Speaker 4: You have young people in their thirties who have kids
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: and have relatable families and have followings of you know,
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: half a million to a million followers, and they are
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: posting about how Tennessee is looking to shut down local farmacies.
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: My kids are not going to be able to get
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: their medicine after going to the er, and my dad's
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: a veteran and veterans aren't going to have access.
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: So they use these buzzwords. And so.
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: While legislation like there are so many people tennesseees so great.
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: I love TPA and what we're doing here, what they're
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: doing here, I guess we I remember, And they did
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: so much work with getting the information available, like making
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: it readily available, and so I was able to take
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: that information and help amplify it, and I was able
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: to tag these people who were making these these videos
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: about this propaganda and say, hey, look this is not
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: actually the truth. What's actually happening is that this is
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: a good thing PBMs and CVS owning a PPM and
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: the pharmacy is actually leading to pharmacies being shut down,
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: it's leading to prices being inflated, it's leading to all
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: these things.
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: And everybody's getting.
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: Their information from social media at this point, so it
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: made it pretty easy to amplify once I'm able to
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: grab it and post stats and post data and post
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: real information for people to digest. And so that is
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: how I have found that it has been helpful. I
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: recently found out probably only thing. I didnt talk about
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: this too much, but I recently found out that the
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: things that I was posting about made an impact on
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: the decision to get that passed through here in Tennessee.
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: And I'm not even saying that to say that, like,
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: you know, pat myself on the back, but it really
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: just goes to show that, you know, if you have
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: a voice and you can get it out there, that's
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: just it doesn't take much other than that. And you know,
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: everybody who had been talking about it, even if they
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: weren't getting hundreds of thousands of views on their videos
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: or tens of thousands, even just you know, one hundred
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: views or two hundred views. Other people see that and
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: people take from that and help amplify that, and it
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: just snowballs into what the message became. And eventually, because
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: I made so much posts about it, other people who
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: had been reached out to buy this company to make
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: videos reached out to me and said, hey, this is
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: exactly what they sent me. They're paying me ten thousand
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: dollars or ten to fourteen thousand dollars to post it.
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: They're telling me I have like twenty four hours to
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: respond to this or they're not going to work with me.
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: And when you're offering people that kind of money up
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: front to say, oh, yeah, like pharmacies are being closed down,
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: like that's an easy cash grap They spent probably half
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: a million to a million dollars just on advertising through
• 15:37
  Speaker 4: social media. So long winded way to say that social
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: media is just so important and that is where a
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: lot of people are getting their information these days.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, for our listeners that are across the country
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: may not be familiar with this Tennessee Act that has
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: just been passed. To give a brief.
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: Explanation, Yeah, so the Fair Pharmacy Act is essentially a
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: way to stop pharmacy or PBMs pharmacy benefit managers from
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: also owning pharmacies. And the reason that that is important
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: is because they're the ones who negotiate prices. So if CVS,
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: just for example, they have care Mark, and so if
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: care Mark is negotiating prices with their own entity, which
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: is CVS, and they're also negotiating prices with let's say
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: I had a pharmacy, Maurice's pharmacy, they have been found
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: to have been giving more, better reimbursements, better pricing for themselves.
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: And so when you aren't profiting as a pharmacy, you
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: can't afford your overhead, you shut down. And when you
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: shut down, patients are left to have to use CVS
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: for example, or even just PBMs make them use it
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: just because of contracts.
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: But it drives down competition.
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: And when you drive down competition, the working conditions not
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: only I guess the working conditions for the people working
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: those pharmacies, there's no incentive to improve them. And then
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: just as a consumer, there's no incentive for you to
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: get a better product.
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: And that's essentially the problem that I have with it.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and you explained that very well. Thank you
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: for covering that. In addition to the unfavorable reimbursements to
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: an independent and more favorable reimbursement to the prebon PBM's
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: own pharmacy. They were also directing patients, right, so directing
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: making the patient feel like the only pharmacy they could
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: go to was their pharmacy, and they were doing that
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: through their networks. And in addition, if somebody's on a
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: maintenance medication, so maybe they're on a statent or something
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: that they're going to take month after month, they're getting
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: sent a letter from their PBM, their pharmacy benefit manager
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: that makes it look like it's mandatory for them to
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: get their refills through where the PBM's own mal order pharmacy. Yeah,
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: so yeah, thanks for covering that. So what separates a
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: successful advocacy campaign utilizing social media versus an unsuccessful one
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: in your opinion.
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: With social media at least in twenty twenty six and
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: just how people consume media in general, the biggest thing
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: that you have to do is not only get to
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: the point as quick as possible, but give people a
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: reason to care about it in the opening as well.
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: And so that is that's the tricky part, because it's
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: talking about PBM reform and the nuts and bolts of it.
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: It's a very it's a lot to digest, and the
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: average person is not going to want to listen to that.
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: But if you can somehow get them to care about
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: the message within the first five seconds or the first
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: ten seconds, and then slowly expand on it, you can
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: you can retain viewers, and those viewers are going to
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: be able to learn what you're talking about. And I
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: think that's just like the that's the hardest part because
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: there's people out there that I'm sure have have the
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: best information in the world. But if you're not able
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: to have people listen through it, then it's not reaching anybody.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's really great point. I mean, we we're
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: a microwave society. We want everything instantly, and tension spans
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: are short, and if you don't catch the attention right
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: up front, then they're scrolling. You know, you're going to
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: scroll right by and not get the important information they
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: might be shared there. So you know, one other big
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: hur we have on educating the general public is better
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: understanding pharmacy benefits and how they work in general. I
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: was asked to go speak to a group of business
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: owners here in the Phoenix area, and no one even
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: knew what a pharmacy benefit manager was. These were CEOs
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: of corporations. They had no idea what a PBM was
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: or how they were involved in their cost for their
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: own company and their own employees. So how should pharmacies
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: help explain that issue better to the general public? And
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: I guess also just to make sure that the patients
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: understand how they're affected by the PBM rules that are
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: in place that are not positive today.
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: That is, that's like the million dollar question, because it's
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: so complicated, and it's it's so it's purposely confusing and
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: vague and opaque, and it's purposely meant to where you
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: can't really track where rebates are going and where cost
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: saving metrics are going, and so it's really hard. It's honestly,
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: I don't know if I know the answer to that.
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: I think the best way for me and the way
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: I try to just relate it as much as possible,
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: is that there is one thing that every single person
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: has in common I think in the country, is that
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: going to the pharmacy is just not a fun experience.
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: Is it's not a fun.
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: Experience, and when you are when your prices are high,
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: that's what we complain about when your insurance coverages constantly change,
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: when you're forced to go to a specific pharmacy, and
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: when a pharmacy doesn't have the resources to properly service you.
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: That is how you That's how I try to get
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: people to care.
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: And I tie it back to that one issue, which
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: is PBM reform.
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: So that's that's that's how I that's how I try
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: to do it.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think the pharmacist over Forest Park Pharmacy, who
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: I also follow on TikTok, does a good job bringing
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: it down to the patient level because of the cost. Right,
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: so if by you know, their approach is to kick
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: out the PBM so that there isn't a metal man
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: which can help bring the cost of the of the
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: medication down. So I think everyone can relate with where
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: it's hitting them in their wallet, right. Yeah. Strategies around
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: communicating that to you know, the general public is probably
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: pretty good efficient.
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's hard because I mean
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: I have conversations like this daily.
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: We have at our hospital.
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: We have a cash plan for our medications, and and
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: let's say you're getting m lodopene on our cash plan
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: it's four dollars, four dollars to get it from US.
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: I bill your insurance, it's twelve dollars. Why is it
• 23:10
  Speaker 4: more expensive with my insurance? Why does my insurance make
• 23:13
  Speaker 4: it go up? That's you know, it's a million dollar question.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, exactly. And then remember when they had gag clauses
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: in place, that phomacy benefit managers had these gag clauses
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: so you couldn't tell them that their cash price was
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: less than the insurance copay. So so at least we're
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: making some progress there, right, removing some of those, you know,
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: those tricks of the industry. So if the wallet is
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: important to the patient, what do you think the message
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: is most important to the voters or legislators?
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: The message, definitely, it's definitely access. It's definitely access because
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: you want to have choice, you want to have petition.
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: In general, competition I think is good for any industry.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: You want to support small business.
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah, small businesses, you don't see those anymore because of PBMs.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: Lott Healthcare. I mean you're pretty close to to you know,
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: a large metropolitan area. Right you go fifteen miles east
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: of you, it's very rural, go thirty miles west of you.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: It's extremely rural, you know, so what about that, you know,
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: the rural health initiatives If all these independents are put
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: out of business because the only place a patient can
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: go now to get access is a chain m Yeah, yeah, okay.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: Can you give us an example of a message that
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: community pharmacies they could use speaking to a lawmaker? Might
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: be you know, a I guess you could take a
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: short form video from that and make, you know, a
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: social media post. What would be a good example that
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: would be beneficient to a lawmaker.
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: Would probably be just the access. It's just the lack
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: of the lack of choice.
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: I think one thing that that I think everybody can
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: agree on is nobody, for one wants to be told
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: where they have to go fill their medications at. And
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: when you don't have as many pharmacies, when mom and
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: pop pharmacies are closing down, independent pharmacies are disappearing and
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: they're not able to compete because of those reimbursements. You
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: get put into a funnel where you have to go
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: to certain places. And as we see just on social
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: media or every single day, nobody wants to go to
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: a Walgreens. Nobody wants to go to a CBS, and.
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: I think just reinforcing that.
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: The biggest thing here in Tennessee was that if they
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: have to choose between a PBM and a pharmacy, pharmacies
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: are going to shut down. That was the big, the
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: big talking point, and it was really the opposite. It
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: was pharmacist saying no, if if these other pharmacies have
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: to close down because of because of this law, because
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: they can't be a PBM and own them as.
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: Well, others will pop up.
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: Other pharmacists will finally be able to have their own
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: pharmacies and they'll be able to expand. In that notion,
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: I mean, I know there's plenty of pharmacists that I
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: know that the only thing holding them back is the
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: reimbursement aspect. They have a business plan and the strategy.
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: It's just that they can't reliably make money off of
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: medications that they're buying and billing. So I think it's
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: it's really just that increased access to care essentially. But yeah,
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: I think that's that would be the biggest talking point.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: Good deal now is there? Obviously there's benefit to unifying
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: a state pharmacy association to have a similar I guess
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: unified approach to communication. Is there anything that you're doing
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: in your state association to kind of get eli independent
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: pharmacies on the same page with what they're either posting
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: or talking to their legislative slats about or taking interviews.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: Is there any effort to unify a message at the
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: state pharmacy association level.
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: Not that I'm aware of.
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: Like I said, I just started getting into this side
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: of pharmacy. I never planned on talking about these things,
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: and I'm glad that I am. I really am, because
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: I like talking about how to improve pharmacies and just
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: overall patient care in general. I know personally, I've actually
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: started working towards getting a community of Nashville area pharmacy
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: professionals to get together in network in a more casual setting,
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: because I found that in those casual settings that's when
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: we can really talk a little bit more freely. And
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: so that is what I've been trying to do here locally,
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: is just gather a community of pharmacy professionals that are
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: on the same page and understand, you know, what what
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: we have to deal with every day.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that could be very, very helpful, because
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: I there might be a lot of pharmacists are more
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: reserved and and they may be you know, they might
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: have a little bit of a feel uncomfortable speaking to
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: somebody in the media, And so what would be some
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: suggestions that you would have to help them be more
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: effective in you know, in in an interview or even
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: covering a topic like PBM reform with their with their
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: local media.
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: I think just pulling from personal experience, you are the
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: expert in your field. You are the expert in handling
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: the negativity or the negatives with dealing with PBMs, and
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: you're the best person to talk about it because we
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: experience it every single day in the pharmacy. We see
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: its impact not only as a pharmacy employee and a
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: pharmacy worker, but we see what it does to patients
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: and how they fall behind in care as well. And
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: so it's I think you just need to have a
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: little bit more confidence and understand that it's not as
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: complex as it sounds. It's something that we live every
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: single day, and you just have to talk about your
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: experience and that's the best way to translate it.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad that you talked about personal experience because
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: people still listen to stories right, And every pharmacy has
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: a story about a patient that couldn't get their medication
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: or something that was held up for that patient and
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: having access to something that they needed because of a
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: pharmacy benefit manager. So I think I think stories, personal
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: stories really can catch the media attention and help move
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: a PBM reform in the right direction. So what role
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: does social media play in influencing policy makers today?
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: So when we were going through the Fair Pharmacy Act
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: here in Tennessee and these other corporations had their influencers
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: talking about what was going on. Eventually, because of what
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: I was saying, I got that email with what they're
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: being offered and the stipulations and the basically the paid
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: advertisement like in writing inverbatim writing. And because I posted
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: it online, I saw other policy makers resharing it on
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: Twitter and resharing it in other places. So even something
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: as small as that, they're using that as a resource
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: when they're going and talking talking to lotmakers and everything
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: about you know, why this is important.
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: And even just having a video explaining.
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: How this impacts patients and how this impacts Tennessee in
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: general or whatever state or our country in general. When
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: you have somebody else who's here's the video, Like, watch
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: this video right here.
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: This is explaining everything better than I can.
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: You know, or this echoes all the calls and letters
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: and emails that we've been getting. This is look at
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: the comment sections, look at the shares, look at the likes.
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: Like everybody here agrees, you can't. The thing about social
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: media too, is that the comment section. You can't fake
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: people's responses. You know, you you either have a positive
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: or negative backlash or whatever, but you can see how
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: everybody feels about a topic if you go into the
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: comment section. And so that is just an easy way
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: to show that there is support and things behind these
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: policies that we want changed in social media for better
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: or for worse is a big.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: Proponent absolutely, So how can pharmacy leaders like yourself then
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: build a broader coalition? You know, are there other groups
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: like physicians or even employer groups that you could tap
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: into to help build the coalition?
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: Honestly, I do not know. I have no idea. I
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: know personally I've made it early New Year's resolution, but
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: to go to more pharmacy meetings and to get more
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: involved in my profession outside of going to work and
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: talking about it like, I want to try and get
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: in those rooms and really see how these things actually move.
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: And so that has been one of my goals. I
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: don't know of any other groups or what that looks like.
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: But the biggest thing is that as pharmacists and people
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: who work in the pharmacy, we can only our voices
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: can only do so much. Where it's going to take
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: much more than us talking about these things. It's going
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: to take patients, it's going to take physicians who deal
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: with pharmacies and prior. You know, you can get into
• 33:30
  Speaker 4: all of it, but you know, it's going to take
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: every part of the healthcare workflow process for a patient
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: to really make people care. And so pharmacies and pharmacists
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: can't be the only ones talking about this because this
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: affects literally every single person, everybody absolutely.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: That's the point of making is that it would seem
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: to me that you know, pharmacy should build that coalition
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: by go into chambers of commerce, you know, going to
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: patient advacy advocacy groups, you know, labor groups, employers, it all,
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: it affects you know, everyone, Like you said, employers are
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: you know paying more than they need to to a PBM.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: That's not getting passed on to the pharmacy, the pharmacies
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: earning less, but the payer, the employer's paying more. Where
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: is that money going? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean figure
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: that out. How can healthcare costs more today than it
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: has ever ever costs and pharmacies are making less than
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: they've ever made on drugs, you know, not just the coverage,
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: but just on the drug spind It's cost the employers
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: more than it's ever cost them, and pharmacies are making
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: less than they ever made. So there's a spread in
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: there somewhere, and it's not going to pharmacies. It affects,
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: It affects physicians. I had doctor Malcolmala, the president of
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: the a m A, on the podcast just last year.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: I encourage everybody to go back and listen to that
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: episode of is fascinating. He's personally affected by PBM and
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: whether or not what medication he can you know, have
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: and at what costs he can have it? So it
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: does affect everyone. I appreciate you mentioning that. So as
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: PBM reform effects you know, continue to to you know,
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: continue to cross over the country. What's happened there in Tennessee,
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: you know, in Arkansas there are places that are making
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: some of these amazing reform come to life. What do
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: you you know, what do you hope for in the
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: next twelve months.
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: I hope that more states join in.
• 35:46
  Speaker 4: And I think that the fear of more states joining
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: in is that it becomes a federal mandate instead of
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: at the state level, and so I just hope that
• 35:56
  Speaker 4: more states join in.
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: I hope that more people keep talking about it.
• 35:59
  Speaker 4: I hope that people in you know, Florida, people in Louisiana,
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: people in I don't know, Oklahoma, see what Tennessee did,
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: sees how Tennessee handled it, and see that like, yes,
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: this is something that can be passed through. Now. Obviously
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: these PBMs are trying everything they can to stop this,
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: even even with the with it being passed. But I
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: think as more join in, it's it's going to become
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: more of a more of a reality. So I just
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: hope to see more states opt into trying to tackle
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: this problem, because every state's affected by it absolutely.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: Well, Maurice, do you have any you know, any advice
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: for pharmacy associations across the country, all over America on
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: a communications strategy that they could implement immediately, maybe maybe
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: every association needs Maurice on the on the payroll created
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: content for him, because you're doing a great job.
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: Honestly, I think that I think that it would be
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: a I don't see too many of this, too many
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: of this stuff happening, but I do think it would
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: be advantageous to try and partner with people who already
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: have a platform and talk about these things, because I
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: do see other associations post valuable, very valuable information, but
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: they just don't have the reach. And so I think
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: that in this age of social media, there are already
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: people not just talking about myself, but there are other
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: content creators in the pharmacy space that can help amplify messages,
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: and I think it's it would be a very good
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: idea to try and work with them in some capacity
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: to help get these messages out there, because I see
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: a lot of the information that I get is from
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: this stuff, and I see the engagement and it's very low,
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: and I'm like, dang, like this is such good information.
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: Everybody needs to see this, but they don't see it.
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: So I just think that the best way, at least
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: right now for information to get out is I think
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: it would be a great idea to work with people
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: in the space that are creating content and do have
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: a lot of experience with amplifying messages, especially when you're
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: talking to people who also have an invested interest in
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: this as well, not just from a let's just find
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: a paid actor to talk about this like, no, like,
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: we need to find people who care and want to
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: talk about this.
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: And want to see change.
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: And I think most pharmacists who are I want to say,
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: all pharmacists who are posting on social media and sharing
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: content and who have built audiences, they want to see
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: pharmacy change for the better. And you know, working together
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: in that regard would be a lot of help.
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: I truly believe that.
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, are you optimistic about the future of community pharmacy.
• 39:05
  Speaker 4: I'm optimist. I am, well, I'm optimist. I'm scared of AI.
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: I'm not gonna lie, not necessarily of AI just replacing pharmacists,
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: but I think AI in general that's probably a different conversation.
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: But outside of that, I am pretty optimistic.
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: I think that.
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: I'm be honest, I didn't think that Tennessee would the
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: Fair Pharmacy Act would work. I really didn't. I did
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: not think that it would get past, and so that
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: was eye opening for me. That was the moment of Okay,
• 39:39
  Speaker 4: people are listening and people are tired of dealing with this.
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: So I'm very optimistic.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: I am good, excellent. All right, some fun facts about
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: your rapid fire.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: Are you more of an early bird or a night out?
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: I am an early bird. I get up about four
• 39:59
  Speaker 4: thirty every morning.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: Wow. Man, do you prefer the mountains or the beach?
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: I prefer the mountains. I love the mountains.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: Okay, you get over to the Smokies.
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: Yes, I went to Smokey's and I also went to
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: to a Yellowstone two times, the Tetons and out to
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: Montana and out to Denver, like I love going out west,
• 40:19
  Speaker 4: like that's my my favorite vacation is going out West
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: and just yeah, being out.
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: These are incredible. But there's nothing in comparison to the
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: Rockies for sure.
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they've they've ruined the smokeyes for me, fortunately.
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: And do you prefer coffee, tea or something else?
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: Something else? I'm an energy drink person.
• 40:39
  Speaker 4: I drink coffee because it's more readily. My wife drinks coffee,
• 40:45
  Speaker 4: so it's easy for me to just make some coffee.
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: But if I'm being honest.
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: I don't like it. I like energy drinks.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: Okay, all right, I'll have to have a chat about
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: that offline. But but today we've learned that you know
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: that successful prebium ref isn't just about legislation. It's about communication.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: It's storytelling, it's coalition building and public engagement. And for
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: community pharmacies and state pharmacy associations, the ability to clearly
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: communicate how PBM practices affect patients may be one of
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: the most powerful tools available to driving meaningful change. So
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining us today and sharing
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: your expertise with us. Maurice. It's great to get to
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: know you a little better, and thanks for being our guest.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: And I want to remind all of our listeners that
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: you are listening to the PBM Reform podcast on the
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: Pharmacy Podcast Network, and be sure and share this episode
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: with someone that needs to hear it, any community pharmacist
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: that is dealing with either a legislator or a policy
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: maker in their own community. Again, thank you, Maurice, and
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: until next time, stay in all, stay positive, and stay
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: in for
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: H