Latest / Yoshi's Podcast / What makes iboga such a useful psychedelic? | Susanna Hinderks | #183

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What makes iboga such a useful psychedelic? | Susanna Hinderks | #183 · Yoshi's Podcast

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: This is nice that it's so close that I can reach it.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: I like it.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's very, very comfortable.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Good.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Susanna.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yay, Yoshi.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: I would say a warm welcome to the podcast, but we are in your home.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: We are.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: So we're both kind of welcoming each other, I suppose.
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  SPEAKER_00: I feel very welcome in your home.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: That is wonderful.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm glad you like it.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: It is an old hippie den, but...
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: It is delightful.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: I said that was the first thing I said when I walked in here
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: a few days ago like oh there's so much cool stuff going
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: on yes yes yes we do collect stuff from all over everywhere we go and uh and
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: when we moved together actually it turned out
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: that our furniture styles just matched oh yeah totally yeah it was really bizarre
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: because I what I brought from uh
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  SPEAKER_01: When I lived in Indonesia,
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  SPEAKER_01: I was perfectly matching with the Solfarclint head and it was like,
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: oh my god, it's like blended perfectly well.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome, that's awesome.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I know you from the retreat that I went to in January with Keter as
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: a psychedelic retreat outside of Amsterdam.
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  SPEAKER_00: You were one of the facilitators,
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  SPEAKER_00: therapists that was working there and you had an amazing energy.
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  SPEAKER_00: Bubbly, super happy, fun energy and great stories.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I told you right away during that retreat,
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  SPEAKER_00: I will come back to Holland at some point and we need to do a podcast
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: because I want more of this energy in my life.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think I did have the energy because I found the right profession for me
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: that was quite clear from when I started a few years ago.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: It is such rewarding work and so much fun as well.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I function quite well when things get a bit messy and unpredictable.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: I thrive in that.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, you're right.
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  SPEAKER_01: My life has been...
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  SPEAKER_01: Reasonably Wild.
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  SPEAKER_01: So that also helps to sort of carry work like that.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_00: I like that description.
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  SPEAKER_00: Reasonably Wild.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_00: Before you became a therapist working with these retreats,
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not technically I'm not a therapist I have several coaching trainings I'm
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: a yoga therapist so I well I coach with including the wisdom of the body if you want
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: and I still have yoga clients and so forth on this idea got it all right but
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: before all of this started who were you who were you as
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: a kid oh my god yeah my childhood already was relatively strange as in
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: that my dad was 33 years older than my mom
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: They met in Northern Ireland and moved to a small Bavarian village, which was very Catholic.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: My dad being a Freemason and decided not to baptize me,
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  SPEAKER_01: that was all kinds of already quite strange to sort of survive in that environment.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: But it also came with great upsides of like a totally liberated countryside life.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: I had a friend in the village and we would just like,
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: hang out with the horses and the pigs and the cows of the neighbors basically and...
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that is one of the reasons I really have some trust in the world
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: because back then in the 70s parents weren't terribly worried where you would be
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: if you're five and you leave the house for a few hours.
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  SPEAKER_01: Especially in a small village.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I think to have that...
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  SPEAKER_01: Kind of trust from them and also being sort of raised by the people there and
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe considered slightly weird, but on the other hand, also embraced in that way.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that was quite lucky.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think things got trickier when I was a teenager,
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  SPEAKER_01: undiagnosed ADHD,
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  SPEAKER_01: a disastrous school career, and then a real like, where do I want to be?
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  SPEAKER_01: I kind of felt always a bit different.
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  SPEAKER_01: I hated this.
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  SPEAKER_01: We had moved to a small town in southern Germany.
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  SPEAKER_01: I rebelled against literally everything, whether that was school or parents or yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I was really quite wild.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: And and then from from there,
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't quite figure out what to do with my life, then became a photographer.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I trained three years as a photographer.
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  SPEAKER_01: And after that, I always thought I would take a year off.
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  SPEAKER_01: to really find myself to see the world and I had this plan I would like once this is
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: over I will go to buy a ticket to Bangkok and then I go through Vietnam
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  SPEAKER_01: into China Tibet India so that was my plan and then when I actually left I still had
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: a ticket to Bangkok but then on
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  SPEAKER_01: the first night there I met two wonderful German girls from Berlin
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: And they kind of twisted my arm and said, let's all do a diving course.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, nah, I don't know, I really want to head north.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: And they said, oh, come on, you have a year, you know, what's a week?
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I followed them to this island, Koh Tao.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Would this be like the early 90s?
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And there,
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  SPEAKER_01: it was a total epiphany because when I did my first dive in the ocean,
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  SPEAKER_01: I literally took the first breath from the equipment and thought, this is it.
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  SPEAKER_01: This is what I want to do for the rest of my life.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I scrapped all plans,
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  SPEAKER_01: stayed there,
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  SPEAKER_01: did dive training after dive training after dive training
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: and ended up 11 years there.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Not only in Thailand, but a bigger chunk of...
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  SPEAKER_01: of my time there in Indonesia.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: Doing diving.
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  SPEAKER_01: Doing diving and a bit of photography.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I traveled with a photojournalist.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: He would phone and say, hey, there's a gig in Papua New Guinea.
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  SPEAKER_01: Can you be there?
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: So it was a real, real dream life.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: How was it in that part of the world at that time?
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  SPEAKER_00: Was it very...
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
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  SPEAKER_00: I bet.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: But was it already filled with a lot of tourists or was it less so?
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there were tourists, but I think it was kind of still a different kind of tourism.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: It was, of course, it was before or it was like email then came, but...
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  SPEAKER_01: The first years there, I remember I worked for this resort on the northeast coast of Bali.
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  SPEAKER_01: They didn't even have a phone line.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: So just to get guests booking,
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: you'd have to drive for 45 minutes to the next town where they had like
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: a fax machine in the restaurant.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it was still very...
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, people really enjoying the adventure of traveling in a foreign land.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that was...
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's different now where everything's Instagrammable
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  SPEAKER_01: and this restaurant hype and this it really that wasn't at all the case
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: so yeah there were tourists but it was also
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  SPEAKER_01: if there wouldn't have been I wouldn't have made a living
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting,
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: we talked about this the other day,
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  SPEAKER_00: like now if you're going somewhere you want to check what are the ratings for
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  SPEAKER_00: the restaurant so you get the restaurant you want.
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  SPEAKER_00: Do you think people would have done that in your days as well if it was available?
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
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  SPEAKER_01: What I do sometimes think is that since when I left and I was hanging out
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  SPEAKER_01: with these two lovely girls from Berlin and we were sort of living
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  SPEAKER_01: the Thailand beach life,
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  SPEAKER_01: there must be hundreds of pictures on film of us just doing sort of
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  SPEAKER_01: the selfie thing.
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  SPEAKER_01: So that was a thing then.
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  SPEAKER_01: I can definitely say that.
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  SPEAKER_01: With the reviews I think what I miss traveling to exotic locations now is
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  SPEAKER_01: that you're not in communication with other people because back
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  SPEAKER_01: then traveling was like you like you try to meet people and
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: then you ask these people where is it nice to go well you know what what's
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  SPEAKER_01: the best beach or how do you have a wild tip and that whole like really um
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  SPEAKER_01: That vibe is not happening anymore and now the children of friends of mine,
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  SPEAKER_01: they're now 18, 19,
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  SPEAKER_01: they also go to Indonesia but they have everything sussed out on booking.com
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: and they don't necessarily need to talk to anyone anymore, right?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, everything is available online now and you don't really have to socialize.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to socialize.
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  SPEAKER_00: You're not forced to socialize in the same way that you were before.
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  SPEAKER_01: Not for survival or for the sake of
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  SPEAKER_01: Of adventure that we didn't have.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that was,
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  SPEAKER_01: of course,
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  SPEAKER_01: that was super fun to just see the world like that and go where the wind blows you
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: and so forth.
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  SPEAKER_01: So that was really nice.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I guess in my 20s the internet was already a thing but it wasn't as developed as today.
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  SPEAKER_00: So you didn't have a smartphone with internet wherever you went.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: No, I didn't have a phone.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: No, of course.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, when I was in my 20s,
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: when I started traveling around,
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of was the in-between generation where, yes,
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: we did have the internet,
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  SPEAKER_00: but you still had to go out and talk to people because you're in another country
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: and internet is super expensive.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: You only have it where you have free Wi-Fi somewhere and it's not everywhere
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  SPEAKER_00: in every restaurant like it is today.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I got a little bit in between, I guess.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: That must be harder, no?
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  SPEAKER_01: Is it not?
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  SPEAKER_01: Because I sometimes wonder if you...
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: if you still remember the good old days and because I can imagine
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: that someone who's 18 now they would not be able to fathom what that would be like
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: to not have a smartphone so to know both is almost harder no?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think we are the last generation we're a special generation because we were around
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: before this happened and we're
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: of age to understand the development once it would happen.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: We were young enough to kind of get all the new tech early,
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: whereas my parents, not really, they didn't really understand what was happening.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: But we were old enough to remember how it was and saw this entire development.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think,
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: I've talked about this on the podcast before,
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a very important generation because we saw what the internet was in
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: the beginning.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: How hopeful it was, how rebellious it was and what it promised to be.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: And we saw what Google was.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Google was a search tool.
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  SPEAKER_00: You put in a couple of words and then you get the results that match that word.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then we saw it go from that to, all right, now the top results are paid ads.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: All right, cool.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: But they're still, you know, search.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then we saw that it became curated material.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: Even the organic results are...
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: Not exactly organic Some people get an advantage And now with
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: the AI result being top We have seen all of this at an age where we're young enough
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: to kind of get what's going on Whereas people who are a few generations younger
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: than myself This is normal to them They haven't even seen how it used to be
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like, yeah, you put in a search query and you get the AI to tell you the truth.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the scary thing.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: The generations that follow that haven't seen the development,
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: how are they going to interpret the world if they are born into this
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: where AI tells you what's right?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: That is a weird thing.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: It is weird, I have to say.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I never wanted to become one of these people who say it was always better in the 80s.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: I have to say it was better in the 80s.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there are definitely some benefits.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: In many ways.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Not everything, of course.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: It has upsides,
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: but I think in many ways,
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm totally glad that not everything was documented that I was up to
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: in these early years there.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm super glad I had to kind of find my own way and I think it gave me a sort of
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: a good sense of who's trustworthy and who isn't you know you trial
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: and error you meet people and some are jerks and
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: then yeah you know you go ah okay better be a bit more careful next time
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: so I think also in terms of doing this work now
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: with the psychedelic retreats it feels like I've actually been preparing for this
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: by living a life like that or by being a diving instructor and literally my job is
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: to take people from one world into a totally foreign world and it's also part
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: of our world there are similarities exactly and they have to sort of trust me
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: with their lives that they will make it back to the surface in one piece and
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: to also I think to
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Grow into that responsibility that it is also really helped so in a way yeah I'm not
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: a trained therapist and that is a downside of course in some regards
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: but I've been eating psychedelics for 37 years so that does qualify you
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: for some type of therapy work yes yes absolutely
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, so, yeah,
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think the life that kind of took many turns and ups and downs and so
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: on still gave me being and ending up in this profession a great deal of value,
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me about your first trip.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, the first trip.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: Ah, well, it was actually a friend of mine who picked them from the meadow near where we lived.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: It was giggly giggly giggly and not of course I wasn't
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: after certainly not enlightenment no I still am not after that but I wasn't
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: after insights I was like anything to get me away from myself or out
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: of myself was good so I was very very curious I still am I think it's one of
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: the driving forces in my life so yeah
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: That was a good way in because it was nothing but light and fun.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the second experience was LSD and that was a bit harder because it was
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: so long and I had to kind of hang on.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: All right, quick break.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe a couch is arriving.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: We'll take a quick break here.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: All right, and we're back.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: We have a couch delivery.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, finally.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: So we might take another quick break when the couch actually arrives up the stairs.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: Fingers crossed.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: So you were saying you had the fun experience with the mushrooms in the meadow and
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: then the LSD was different?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: It was different in the sense of I understood that there's
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: a mental emotional component all of a sudden that takes time to get used to.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: It was still wonderful.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it was the start.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: I had a little bit of a break from psychedelics,
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think, in the years where it was all very much pubs and beer and rock and roll.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then I rekindled the flame when I went traveling again.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: Back then in Asia,
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: you could buy mushroom omelets and pineapple mushroom shakes in all the beach bars.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Aljosja Yoshi's Podcast
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: When I started to really kind of wanting to dig deeper all the many,
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: and it was many, many, yeah,
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: 11 years in Asia,
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: it was a regular thing for us to do,
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: my colleagues and friends and I.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: I don't ever remember it being not beneficial in a way.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's interesting because these are obviously very powerful substances
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: and doing them in let's say an uncontrolled manner which social activity usually is.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: Can be very tricky.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like a lot of people, you know, maybe shouldn't be doing it in that way.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's better for them to do it in a retreat setting or ceremonial setting or whatever.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: No, and I do remember I did also,
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: since I had only good experiences, I had,
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, sometimes they were dive clients or friends of friends and I'd say,
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah let's go to this bar and have the mushroom shake and then we go to the club
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: and I had a specialized walk in Bali and like first we went down like a long strip
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: where it was like one bar after the other after the other like drag shows
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: and like super
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Neon Line so that was fantastic in itself because it's like visually it lent itself
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: and then there was a left turn
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: and there was like very old like willow trees super like mystical nothing totally
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: quiet other than like street dogs
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: and then we'd walk along there for about I don't know 100-200 meters and
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: then we would do a right turn into
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: an alleyway it was like really you could just sort of like fit a normal size human
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: in huge concrete walls of about 5-6 meters totally pitch black
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: so people were like oh wow
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: However, I knew, since I knew the way, that it would sort of spit you out on the beach.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then to come out of this very narrow,
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: dark tunnel and onto this unbelievable, amazing beach in the middle of the night.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: Totally tripping was just unforgettable.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I've had people like sing to their knees and cry with joy.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, it was amazing.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: When you get to the beach, right?
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Feels like you...
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: This huge...
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Relief.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: Release and yeah so I'm like yeah who like how could not that not be nice right
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: or how can that not um I don't know connect you with a sense of the wonders
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: of being alive and and if if my mind can cooperate with this uh with the substance
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: then wow who are we so I think it was it was already sort of sparking the
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: The bigger questions of life maybe they were kind of swirling around already then
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: but then one of my dive clients happened to be a psychiatrist from Switzerland
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: and he overheard my friend and I planning a trip to the mushroom bar
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: and he said what are you and then you're going out like to the club that seems crazy
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: and I said
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: what else would we be doing and he said yeah I use this in therapy in Switzerland
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: where it was regulated in a different way back then so I was allowed and
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: that was another total yes of course this makes sense and I think we have
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: to take another break let's take a quick break there is a couch coming our way
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: and we're back yeah and we're back
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, so the Swiss therapist said, why are you using this social way?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, how must that be?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: We use this in therapy and that kind of was,
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: really I will not forget this moment because it made me look backwards thinking,
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: who would I be if I didn't have these by then probably 100 or some experiences?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: And in what way did it also sort of steer me in the right direction?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: However,
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: that's of course,
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: my mother would probably argue the right direction was diving instructor
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: in Indonesia.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: But in terms of shaping my personality or,
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: developing my values or any of that, it was totally clear to me that...
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: In a way these substances also saved my life because I was really quite wild
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: so I could have gone down a very different path so in that way I think it was
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: a real ah now I have to look at these substances in a very different way
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: In terms of,
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: and he said,
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: we became friends, sadly,
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: he passed away a few years ago,
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: but he said, well,
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: there's a conference in Switzerland soon,
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: and I think it was in 2006,
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: was the first one in Basel that I went to,
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: but Hoffman was there, it was like, oh my God, I was so starstruck.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: That is cool.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Did you have a chance to chat with him?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: I met him, but that's it.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: But I met all the, you know, Roland Griffiths and all these guys were all there.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: And it was the...
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: I did not consume anything there for whatever reason.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: But I do remember going home after these three days.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I didn't sleep for two nights just like with my brain going, wow,
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: like the impact that this could potentially have on the world of mental health and
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: on and on and on.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: So...
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: So that was really a turning point in the sense of I want
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: to know how these substances can be losing their stigma
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: and you know everybody was like hippies and yeah so I really dove into the science
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: and found out everything I could and flew literally all over the world to all
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: the conferences that were happening then
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that was great and interesting and then when I had already moved back to Germany
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: by that point and I was living in Munich and I thought,
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: okay, I need to sort of find out how can this be done in a more therapeutic setting.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: There was a Swiss church, you could become a member.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: And you can donate, I don't know, 20 euros.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then they would send you the holy sacrament, they called it.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: So that was mushrooms, mail delivered to me in Munich.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: They unfortunately got busted, so that didn't happen anymore.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: the good thing was that I thought, okay,
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: I need to also,
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: now that I had a good glimpse of the research and I'm self-administering,
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: I would like to see what else can be done here.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Probably a break.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: Quick break.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be right back.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: And we are back.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Couch has been delivered.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: Put together.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: What's the word here I'm looking for?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Put together Assembled Assembled Thank you very much And the delivery guys Are out
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: of the apartment So now we can sit and talk And no more interruptions That's nice
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: And we forgot where we were.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: We were talking about who would you be if you had not had these experiences.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes,
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: and I think it was also about finding a place where I could kind of experience this
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: in a more therapeutic way,
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: which of course it can be used in real sessions with a therapist that's newer
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: than I was.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know I was googling for something like a new iron or something
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: and I got like from one article to the next to the next to a blog or something about
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: a place in Peru where they were only working with female shamans with ayahuasca
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: and I thought okay shamans not interested Amazon jungle not interested I can't dive
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: there
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: and still something in me said like no but I have to I have
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: to go there I didn't know why so I went there and that was also a real turning point
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: in the way of it wasn't in the in the western sense therapeutic
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: but it was like I arrived and I was trying to figure out what do I want
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: from this experience and I kind of had a
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, could you just pull the mic a little bit closer?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, yes, sorry.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I had a curiosity-driven motive,
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: but then I also thought,
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: oh my god,
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: this is probably a once-in-a-lifetime experience,
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: so I want to know how the universe works and all of that.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then they sat with me in this consultation,
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: so it was like a translator that translated from Shipibo,
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: from their language to Spanish to English.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: And they all looked at each other and said like, no, no, you need clarity.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, that's right, I need clarity.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: That is fantastic.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: They got it, I didn't.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that was really life-changing, I have to say.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: How old were you at that time?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I was probably late 30s or something at that time.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I had combined it.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I was first in Peru and then at a psychedelic conference at one of
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: the earlier MAPS conferences.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it was business and pleasure.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: Business and pleasure, yes.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I wasn't in the business of psychedelic.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: I was just an ordinary yoga teacher then.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: But I combined it.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then I came from that retreat in Peru.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: We were there for, I think, 12 days in the jungle, drank five, six times, I believe.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, God.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: All these ayahuasca retreats sound so damn intense.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, again, not a bad experience.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: It was intense.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: It was definitely that, but it was also...
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like so fascinating to see how they work and they work in total darkness
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: so they kind of you can hear them kind of crawl to your place and then they sing
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: the Icarus and then what they sing to you transforms into images
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: and it was truly amazing and so they sang the clarity songs they kind of worked
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: on me energetically and I went to the conference and
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: There was a,
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even know what the talk was anymore,
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: but there was a man in the audience that asked a question somehow referring to ADHD
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: and this and this.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: And again,
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh,
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: I have to remember the name of the guy that asked the question and I found him later
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: and it was Gabor Mate before he was like super famous.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then I emailed him afterwards and I said,
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think, do you think that ayahuasca could have an influence?
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't diagnosed then,
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: but I thought if I went in feeling totally frazzled,
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: now I walk out of this retreat,
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm actually, I can think straight and I'm like calm and collected.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: Could this be?
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, yeah, actually, I think it can have that effect.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of on coming back to Germany.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: I found a psychiatrist,
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: got diagnosed and then thought, okay, so how can this be actually something?
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because I didn't want to go on medication long term.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: How can this be helpful?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't require me flying to Peru every few months.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I found a group here in the Netherlands that did Ayahuasca Works and it was still legal then.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, that became almost like a second family.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I...
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: I went and drank there for years and years.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's like my 16th year or something now.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: So it helps calm the brain of someone with ADHD?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: For me, it worked.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't last, unfortunately.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: How long does it last?
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: From that first retreat, I think it was about three months.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: So that's not bad.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's not bad.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: Now it depends a little bit.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's also that I'm quite familiar in the state or it's a little less of a,
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: oh my God, what was this?
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm more familiar with it.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think in general it probably has helped me with many other things.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Have you drank Aljosja?
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: Aljosja?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: No, I have not.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: Not yet.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: Not yet.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see what life brings but I haven't yet Has it called or knocked on your door?
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: I've been fascinated by it absolutely who wouldn't be when you hear about it
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: but it hasn't pulled me in yet I have tried DMT the drive-by shooting
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: of psychedelics
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's a wonderful way of putting it.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: I will probably steal that because that's exactly how it feels like.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: You're just like, holy shit, what was all that?
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what any of this means, but it was amazing.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: What was this?
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it's very interesting, but not very insightful.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: In some ways it is.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: In some ways it gives you a feel of something.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: okay um yeah because because it's it's I always say like the the the early part of
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: the onset of the ayahuasca is what I really don't like okay which is like
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: the like oh is that so full-on DMT and then I like the when it kind of winds down
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: a little bit when it's like a real kind of a contemplation right type of in
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: and out up and down and like real deep insights and I don't I don't need the
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Space Aliens and... No, I didn't have any of the entities or anything like that.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: I just...
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: It was the first time I experienced full ego dissolution or ego death, whatever you call it.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: And that was magical.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: Just experiencing that and going somewhere and experiencing without an ego.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: That was a mind trip.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: When I came back out of it, I was like...
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: I started laughing.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, how is this possible?
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: How is this possible?
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I started realizing, oh yeah, I'm a human being.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: I did the DMT.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I was up there.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: How cool.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: It felt like I visited the place where souls come from.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: Completely felt that way.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like, oh, right, right.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: I've been here millions of times.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: I know this place.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: Super familiar.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: Has it changed your worldview in the sense of, I don't know.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: It probably has, I mean,
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of,
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not like religiously raised,
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very atheistically raised,
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: but I'm much more open to whatever, there being something.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I've kind of always felt like, sure, why not, there's a soul or something.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: More stuff happens when we die than just, you know, decomposing.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been open to that.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: That was kind of confirmation.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: That was like, yeah, yeah.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because that can also be a source of comfort, no?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: In a way.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: The day after I was at work,
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: At the office and I just couldn't stop smiling I just couldn't stop smiling
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: and thinking like this is like nothing you guys you guys know
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: that there's like way more behind all of this like this is this is
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: Such a small part of what life and experience is and so in
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: a sense it was very good it was very I don't know hard to put a finger on
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: but like it gave me a joy of life in a way I suppose
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: so nothing like new it just confirmed and amplified kind of thoughts I already had
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: but experience it's like if I tell you
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: What the water is like to go swimming.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: I can talk all day long and it's like, yeah, it sounds great.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: But once you dip your toes in it, like,
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of figured this was it and then I dipped my toes and I was like,
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: right, right, yeah, this is what it is.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, nice.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that sounds really good actually.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, it was great, it was great.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I would probably be open to ayahuasca at some point, but it hasn't called me yet.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: All right, well, let us know if it does.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: We can point you in the right direction.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, will do, will do.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so you started going to these conferences,
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: you started realizing that there's more here than just, you know, having fun.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: How did it go from that to I want to work with this?
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, actually, it was a slow burn, I have to say.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: For this ayahuasca group that I drank with for some years, I ended up working for them.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: I became an assistant in their works at first,
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: and then I did the organization, meaning taking care of the bookings.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: Aljosja Yoshi Ziga aljosja
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: I've been in tourism for my entire adult life.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: I really like working with people.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Is this now kind of being sort of trapped in the house?
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: Is this what I really want to do?
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, everything went online and the Zoom coachings and this.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, no, I don't think that's really for me.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was contacted by a friend of a friend of mine who...
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: was looking to organize truffle retreats for Germans in German led by Germans
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: and I thought okay that's actually not a terrible idea because I think
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: when he approached me I thought we kind of are our target audience is quite similar
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: in the sense of we didn't want
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: the young experimenting ravers anyways we thought no let's kind of make it
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: in a way that normal middle-aged people who really have like,
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: a midlife crisis or they're going through a bad breakup or are coming out of
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: a burnout or just want to explore but don't want to be sold an ideology
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: or find themselves in a hippie circle where everything is about,
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, the moon and the sky.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: And not to knock that in any way, but I thought...
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: My strength also with teaching yoga was kind of bridging the gap and kind
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: of enticing people that wouldn't normally want to be in a typical yoga studio.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: So in that sense, I thought, yeah, I'm intrigued I could do this with him.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then that didn't work out and then I was kind of faced with
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: the oh shit okay do I continue on my own like do I want to yeah I want
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: to have my own business with this and that was kind of a I had by then sort
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: of realized I actually I'm pretty good at it I like it I uh
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: I can continue bringing in my husband eventually and it doesn't have to be German
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: so it was a really slow transition in the meantime I have worked for other companies
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: to assist with their retreats so it's also to kind of yeah over
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: the I've probably assisted people for 12-13 years at least so that
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: I've assisted Iboga retreats,
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: I've been initiated in Gabon together with my husband and a friend of ours.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: So there was already,
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: we were kind of pretty deep in this and I thought, okay,
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: I still find it appealing to bring this to people
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: who wouldn't necessarily ever consider and with the research being what it is now,
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: And all the, you know, it's in Forbes magazine and GQ and it's all over.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really come out of the, sorry, I have to answer the question.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: Quick break, quick break.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do it.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: And we're back.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: Again.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, so you were saying...
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, so I was already, yeah, I was kind of then left with the choice of just continuing.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: I had built a little bit of a following.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: I had some people working for us and they continued with me and I thought,
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: okay, let's go step by step.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it's been a real adventure here.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: Before we move into what you're working with now and the kind
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: of retreats you're arranging and facilitating, you mentioned your husband.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now, he wasn't always your husband.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: No, he wasn't always my husband.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: No, he was a fellow traveler.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard Ayahuasca had a finger in the game.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: Would you mind sharing that story?
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, yes.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we met there actually.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I was separated from my husband and didn't know where to turn.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: It was also in a way complicated because...
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: I lived in Munich.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: With your previous husband.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: My previous husband.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: We worked in the same place.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: I worked in his practice.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: So it was, oh my God, I'm totally trapped.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: If I say no to this marriage, that also means no to homework and everything falling apart.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I was quite distressed and I had a horrible hernia in the neck.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: Couldn't move.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: I was very trapped.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then the workshop started with basically saying, yeah, this is not your life, right?
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: I have that ability.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: I do believe to somehow I can have one foot in this world and one in the other.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm quite comfortable sort of fitting in, I guess.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: But it was like this realization of
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's like him and I want very different things from life.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: When you say the workshop,
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: during the ayahuasca experience, you got that sense that this is not the right life.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm stealing his time.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm betraying myself.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: This can't work.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: So that realization kind of went
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, shit, then that means my whole life is sort of falling apart.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought also what was interesting that in the years in Munich,
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: I thought if I wouldn't,
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: like would I live here if my then husband didn't have his business there?
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know I would and then like there were moments of you know when I was in Peru
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: or in the US I'm like oh you know could I live here or where would I go
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: if I was totally free since I've already been kind of out of Germany for quite
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: a long time and
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: then I thought I think it could be Amsterdam I think I would really like to live
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: in Amsterdam You were still having this monologue during the ayahuasca trip Yes
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then,
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: anyways,
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: we wrap up,
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: we go to dinner,
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: the next day we drink again,
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: and then sometimes I have an internal dialogue,
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: as in it feels like there's an external voice asking me stuff.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: So the voice comes and says, okay, so still clear, this is not the life for you.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, yep, yep, I get it, I get it.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, okay, good, because I have some news.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: The man you will be with is here across the room so go over
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: and hold his hand you will see and I'm like yeah I can't do that I mean we had met
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: a couple of times but like I meet 40 people every time when I'm there so it wasn't
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: Not in a million years did this cross my mind in the slightest and since I am driven
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: by curiosity my whole life I think it was a saving grace in many regards
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: the voice kind of kept on if I would have had to guess probably two hours of oh wow
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: and I'm like but eventually I thought okay this is getting annoying
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: Let me just go and see what happens so I walked over and ta-da that kind
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: of was it that's the short version of the story is it was
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: a oh like what's happening here this is really bizarre like I can't you know I can't
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: believe this could be going on and
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: But then it kind of all fell into place.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, of course, it took time to dissolve the life in Munich.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: I moved out and in with a friend.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, I had yoga clients and family and friends.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not saying it was a, hey, this was easy.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: No, of course not.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: But it was the spark.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: But it was like it initiated this and then luckily the man says he lives
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: in Amsterdam so I'm like okay
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's kind of nice.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the man you're still with.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the man I'm still with.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: Now, of course, I've heard this story before and I was so fascinated by it.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: So during an ayahuasca trip,
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: you kind of get the realization that the life I'm living,
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: the man I'm with is not correct for me.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then the voice, you accept that, you're like, yeah, you're right.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then the voice tells you the man you're supposed to spend your life
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: with is right over there.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: And points you in the direction of a guy who you've said hi to, basically.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: How is this explained?
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how would you explain this?
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really, this is a tough one because...
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'd be lying to not say.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: I've thought that this is the one, like several occasions in my life.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: I was always kind of an all or nothing and I'd drop everything at a hat and move
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: to Vietnam or whatever.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: I've done all those things and it's not ended that well.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where I was, of course, also very hesitant.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: So were my very close friends who heard about it and they're like, okay, that's another one.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's...
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: and I thought okay there has to be something here that will have
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: to feel very different because I mean if you ask me is there
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: an outside force telling me this thing I would have a hard time believing that it's
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: the conversations I'm having I'm
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's what people say, right?
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: Mother Ayahuasca told me this and this and told me this and this.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, you know, this is a slippery slope.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: If you take everything literal that Mother Ayahuasca told me, whatever.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it's, I think, for me, the discernment to not fall into that trap and...
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's what we tell our retreat clients you know don't go home selling your house
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: divorcing your husband in a way I'm like well I could also see that
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: if I wouldn't have used the momentum I had to kind
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: of say okay this is all very very terrifying and my ex-husband is a wonderful man
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: that I also loved of course the breaking point was also that I didn't want children
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: and he did
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: so that was a massive crossroads that we can't I mean you can't compromise
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: on something like that so it's not that it was all honky dory and all of
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: a sudden this happened no of course not so this was in the making for quite a while
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: of course but to then not fall into the trap
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: of saying Mother Ayahuasca told me it sounds very cute and it was wild
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: when it happened of course but I'm
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think that years of therapy years of working with these medicines also
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: and generally I do have a very good intuition
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: if not I probably wouldn't be alive anymore but to say that the therapeutic work
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: if you want that I did on myself in terms of how am I in
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: a relationship why am I going after the men I found appealing and on and on
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: that something
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: in my own screwed upness and of course the consequences of my own upbringing and
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: to some extent questionable parenting and so on.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: That had to come to a, okay,
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: now it's time to let these old conditionings,
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: put those to rest and maybe find a man that actually really wants to know
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: who you are,
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: that is appreciative of all of this,
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: that can handle it,
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: that is also outside the box enough to live a life where,
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: as you can see, live in a hippie den and all that.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was the growing up part in me that said this would be a different kind of
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: a relationship All of
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: that makes complete sense What is crazy is how does your inner voice know
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_00: that it's this guy?
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_00: That I don't know.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: That is the fantasy.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_00: Even if it's not Mother Ayahuasca,
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: it's like your subconscious speaking to you in the shape of a different entity.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: How does it know?
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: Where did this come from?
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's true.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there is a little cosmic joke that we shared before we were ever an item is
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: that I had seen him at workshops.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you go and talk to people.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: I was also assisting there.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, anyways, and I approached him, oh yeah, so you're from the US?
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: I said, oh, that's nice, you know, would you ever consider moving back there?
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, no.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: I said, oh, why not?
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: My half-brother lives in LA, so I do like America.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I used to.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: I used to like it more.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: But then he said, no, it's full of Americans.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, oh, but there's wonderful Americans out there.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, name one.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Frank Zappa.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: And he just went, oh, my God.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't say much else.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: But then later, when I knew him better, I came here.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_01: And there's like, there was old Zappa albums from cover to cover.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, that is crazy that a man that young, he was, I don't know, 36 then or something.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: that he would even know who that is to begin with I'm
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: a huge fan that's already weird first I'm a woman and I'm also slightly too young
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: for being a huge Zappa fan so it was this wow you know that was almost like
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: the cosmic joke of like have this so I also do remember that being almost like a
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: Pointer to say not I mean not that I only want to hinge it on Frank Zappa
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: but it's it's also what what is appealing about that what speaks to me
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_01: where is this this real sort of underdog and the the and the love for rock and roll
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: and to be able to I don't know have a go to a to a meditation retreat and
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: to see Motorhead the next day that was all right up my alley and to find uh
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: All that rolled into one human being was literally the needle in the haystack that I found.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful, beautiful.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm glad to hear that.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I've met your husband and he's a great guy and you guys are a great, great couple.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: whether it was your subconscious or mother ayahuasca whoever it was they did
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: a good job there and I'm not
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: who knows I'm not ruling it out I mean I've experienced enough also work with Iboga
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: so that has definitely also it's kind of where ayahuasca is like here it's kind
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: of like really also totally shattered my world I'm not ruling it entirely out
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: but I think that in the
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: In the medicine circles,
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think a bit more scrutiny is often well to be applied in the sense of...
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe rule out more obvious things like, yeah,
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: I was ready for a Frank Zappa fan and my subconscious knew that and not
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: a plant mixture is whispering this into my ear.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: Makes sense, makes sense.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_00: All right, so tell me a little about what you do now.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_01: Now I do psilocybin workshops mainly in Iboga and I'm still affiliated with
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: the Ayahuasca group as in it's a little bit of a surrogate family there so I go as
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: a participant but that has never called me to work with it as a substance so I think
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: for me the truffle work is really
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of ideal in many ways.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's legal.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's wonderful.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's really fairly safe.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it packs still a good enough punch to really see some incredible transformations.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: I can attest to that.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_01: I was going to say, you tell me.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: For people who don't know, truffles and mushrooms have the same active ingredients, psilocybin.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: And in Holland, where we're sitting right now, truffles are legal.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure if it's weirdly enough or not but truffles are legal and therefore
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of psilocybin retreats are arranged here in the Netherlands quite
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: a few international groups I would say as well in Europe it's one of the places
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: where you can safely offer this without having to fear
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: The police marches through the doors.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so you arrange then retreats with psilocybin, truffles, and also iboga.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me a little bit first about the Psilocybin retreats.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: What do they look like?
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: Who can come?
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: How does it work?
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: Anyone can come.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: They are on a lovely, lovely farm in the east of the Netherlands.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's not too far to the German border.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's still the same venue we had when I was with my German business partner.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: So people from Dusseldorf or somewhere in that area, they're just having to zip over.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: We have two different formats of retreats.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: We have one...
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's like a shorter version.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's usually I recommend it for people who want to do like a refresher
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: who have had some experience and they arrive Thursday night and Friday we have
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: a full day of preparation.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we do group exercises, some creative work, some
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: some movement that could be yoga or qigong or yeah so we offer a kind
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: of somatic movements that that depends a little bit on the group so the whole day
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_01: of preparation and then on the Saturday
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_01: We embark on the truffle journey.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: The reason why it's more recommended for non-first timers,
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_01: it's just that they have a little bit more experience of what does
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: the dose feel like.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: So if we have first timers, I'm also open to that.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: However,
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_01: then we have to know that they are kind of in a state where they say,
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: if we dose too low,
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: And they regret it and it's like to get over that kind of hump that they need to go
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_01: over is harder to then dose afterwards.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that of course gets determined in that we have online preparation
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: that is one-on-one.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_01: We have online preparation as a group.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: and we have the preparation day and then at the end of
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: the day we basically we say okay how much do you feel like taking and then we sort
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: of offer a range from our experience what would that look like
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_01: and some people are like I'm here I feel safe bring it on
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: and some people say I would like to kind of enter slowly and that's
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_01: of course fine I think one of the main things I really believe in to
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: Hand the participants some power in the sense of agency like I want people
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_01: to make these I understand they have no experience with the substance and need us
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_01: for guidance but then also to take responsibility not only for the journey because
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: the journey is only the very beginning I think the
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: The walking out of the retreat and then going,
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_01: ah, what do I do with this mountain of insights or...
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_01: Or where do all the feelings go that all of a sudden like evaporated out of me
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_01: and how to organize that.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_01: Of course the idea is in the preparation and during the time there
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_01: to make them ready to handle that.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_01: We do of course have one-on-one integration and also integration in the group online.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_01: But still the more stable the people are that are leaving our retreat the better for everyone.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: Makes sense.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_00: So fairly similar then to the kind of retreat where I met you with Ketter.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's quite, yeah, we are in alignment of kind of our values and how to run things.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_00: For listeners who are curious about that,
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_00: Hanna Radomsky who runs Keter was a guest on my podcast,
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: so they can go check that out,
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: unfortunately in Swedish for non-Swedish speakers, but it is what it is.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: All right, let's talk a little bit about Iboga.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: What is Iboga?
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's the most wonderful plant on the planet.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, in my mind it is.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_01: It is a root bark from Central Africa, mainly Gabon.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: It has created big headlines.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's a Netflix documentary on Ibogaine.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_01: So Ibogaine has been very successfully used in the
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_01: in treatment for addiction.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_01: So you can be like a 15 year heroin user and ingest Iboga or Ibogaine
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_01: and come off heroin without any withdrawal symptoms or very, very minimal.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_01: So there is no substance like that on the planet that can do that.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_01: However, we cannot and do not work with heart cases like that.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_01: They should be in a clinical setting with hooked up to heart monitors and so on and so forth.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's a little bit of two tracks.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_01: One is the more traditional way that Clint and I learned when we did our initiation.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_01: So we
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_01: went to Africa and we underwent like a two week ritual there in Libreville with
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: a fantastic man named Tatayo in a place called Ebando.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_01: Also really monumental experience of our lives and we had been working with a couple
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_01: and assisted them for about 5-6 years and when they decided to slowly think
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_01: about retirement they were looking for people to hand this over to and they asked us
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: and again it took about 3 years of marinating and sleeping on it and really
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: like listening and checking and is this something that we can we can trust ourselves
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_01: that we can handle it it's a it's different in a way that it's not
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_01: a classic psychedelic the visions aren't psychedelic they're more like um
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_01: More like being in a 3D movie or in a hologram.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: So it's very lifelike.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's a lot longer acting.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_01: So when people eat their main big dose on the third day of the retreat,
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_01: some don't sleep for two to three nights.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of like an in and out.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a bit of a waking dream with really profound realizations.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_01: It can be quite biographical.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_00: When you say it's like a 3D movie,
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: is it like an out-of-body experience that you see yourself in third person in
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: a scene?
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_01: You can see that.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I have had that happen.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's a bit like you're watching a 3D screening.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it can be very, very fast.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's quite bitter.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_01: Quite bitter.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_01: What does that mean?
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_01: Many people hate the taste Oh,
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_00: bitter as in the taste Okay,
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_01: I thought of the experience A little bit,
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_01: the experience matches the taste Okay It can be very beautiful as well It has
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_01: a reputation as being quite hard and rough and brutal Does it deserve
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_00: that reputation?
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_01: My experience, hell yeah, yeah
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_01: It was the hardest 36 hours of my life.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_01: My first experience with it was extremely challenging.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_01: But also very valuable.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I think, is it worth it?
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_01: However, Clint, for example, he has beautiful experiences.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_01: He dances.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_01: He's like...
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, this is lovely.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the reputation isn't totally fair.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be harsh.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_01: No, but I think often it's in the duration.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think with other psychedelics that also come with the very psychedelic imagery,
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_01: if you have visions, then a lot is left to your own interpretation.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_01: Or you can sort of wiggle and bullshit your way out of something that maybe could be
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_01: an insight and with Iboga that is less so.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_01: It is very... You came here to hear the truth.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_01: Now here's the truth.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_01: You don't like it.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_01: I don't care.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_01: But there's no...
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's less wiggle room for,
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, it's less metaphorical, it's a very direct kind of substance.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_00: So is it as with other psychedelics that it works on what you have within,
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_00: in your subconscious and it brings it up to the surface and forces you
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: to confront it or?
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, yeah, it's more than that.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_01: It feels like it really rewires your brain in a weird way.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it's also, in my experience, longer lasting.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's...
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, the effects afterwards, you mean?
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's longer lasting during the trip as well.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_00: One trip is like a 24-hour experience?
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it can really be that.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's tough to measure because some people are in and out,
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_01: but some people really with the retreats are one week long.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_01: The last group I think they were all glad that they didn't have to leave earlier
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_01: because it's like you're physically wobbly or kind of stunned in a way of what
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_01: the hell was that it's also maybe for it to really have
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_01: a positive effect it doesn't have to make a lot of sense it can be like
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_01: the imagery can be very quick some people have
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_01: I asked the guy who first organized me to go to my first retreat.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_01: I said, oh, so what's it like?
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, oh, it's like Googling your subconscious.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, oh, nice.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_01: So everything's file that I've ever experienced and everything can be kind of like drawn out.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's amazing.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, okay, when the effect comes on, I will try that.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_01: I did and I said just any date I was like okay so take me to May 23rd 1973
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_01: and there was the image and I was the baby and then I kind of became my mother
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_01: with all that she felt and then my dad and then my brother
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_01: and it was like whoa okay this is another and I was in therapy at the time
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_01: and also like my therapist who was
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_01: Really lovely, but also quite old school.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_01: If this is true,
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_01: what you're saying, then this is incredibly valuable from a therapeutic standpoint.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_01: and I tried again because I have no way of proving that that was the day
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_01: so I thought okay let's go to like events of my youth where I know I know
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_01: where I was I don't know August 16th 87 or something right and I went there
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_01: and again it's like immediately there and pretty and with the feelings and it's like
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, also what does this mean about us as humans now?
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_00: And when you get taken back, do you relive the scene as it was or can you affect it?
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_00: Can you make a different choice?
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_01: No, I didn't try that.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_01: It was more like, oh, this actually works.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_01: It was for me,
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think the reason I asked was to see is this actually,
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_01: is our brain as amazing to actually have...
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_01: This all stored in file cabinets that you can with the right tools to access that
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_01: and also maybe re-evaluate because I think a lot of the stuff
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_01: that our childhood sort of programs into us is so hard to get rid of that I think
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_01: if you revisit
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying you can rewrite history in a way but you can kind
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_01: of give your current self a reference to say okay this was
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_01: then now I'm really feeling this was then I don't have to be ruled by these ghosts
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_01: from back then indefinitely I can let it go so that I didn't specifically revisit
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_01: after that and
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_01: But it's a truly magnificent experience Fascinating So you mentioned
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_00: the addiction aspect of it,
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_00: that it can be helpful with that What other kinds of benefits have you seen
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_00: with people taking Iboga?
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, so many It's the plant that makes you grow up
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's a real kind of last year when we had our retreat we of course eat a little bit
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_01: during the retreat and I didn't feel the effect which is also intended to be
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_00: that way but when you say we of course eat a little bit you mean a little bit of
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_00: the iboga yes
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we need to stay awake with them.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_01: But what was really interesting was that despite during that time there,
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't have any, of course, not any process or anything.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_01: But as soon as we wrapped up and we came home,
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_01: I felt like I had like a little guard dog in my brain
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_01: that whenever my thoughts would kind of go down kind of like a path
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_01: where I would either...
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I think like bullshit myself or where I would find an excuse for not having
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_01: to do something or just like nothing nothing massive
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_01: but just these tiny little things where it's like oh no you know there's like
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_01: a better a better track there's a there's a better reaction
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_01: to this there's like ah here realize this is an excuse you used again no you wanted
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_01: to you know and and to have that kind of like a
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_01: like a tiny little electroshock whenever I thought like
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_01: that would happen go like yeah back on track yeah you know
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_01: and this is amazingly helpful for three months oh wow to
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_01: to say ah interesting it's like having a yeah having a a coach in your in your mind
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_01: that reminds you when you screw up super helpful
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_01: I bet yeah yeah no there I was unfair to this person oh I was mean
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_01: to my mom right right it was real like like 24-7 uh immediate learning
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_01: and it's like huh where is this and then at first I was like what's happening
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_01: to me what could this be and I thought well it is the only the only thing
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_01: that was different is I ate a few spoons of iboga without even having like a
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_01: noticeable effect and that's no trip no no and we do sometimes have
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_01: that people eat very small doses and this is all it needs for them to kind
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_01: of course correct and that I think where it is valuable and that's why where
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_01: the reference of it makes someone grow up it's this sort of
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm not a huge self-optimizing fan in many ways of everything has to be better.
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_01: No,
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_01: but I think to free ourselves from the constraints of our conditioning or generally
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_01: if we want to live a more content life,
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_01: then that includes to have our minds in check, right?
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_01: I always say don't believe everything you think.
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think that is important to overhaul the narratives in our heads and say, oh, really?
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_01: Is that actually a fact?
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_01: Or am I just being hijacked by something that was planted there 45, 50 years ago?
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_00: Programming.
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_00: Who is Iboga not for?
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_00: I know some psychedelics or...
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_00: Pretty much all psychedelics should be avoided by people
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_00: who have something like schizophrenia, paranoia.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_00: Are there any other heart conditions,
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_00: anything physical or mental that should stay away from Iboga?
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I would almost reverse it and say, who is it for as a smaller group?
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think it has to be a real wholehearted, yes?
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 1:09:57
  SPEAKER_01: I was a little bit worried with the documentaries out and it's all over the press
• 1:10:02
  SPEAKER_01: and it's many people involved and even the Texas government and so on and
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_01: so forth like it's kind of the miracle substance that's going to fix
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_01: the American opioid crisis and that might be the case who knows but let's say
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_01: we exclude the people that have like severe drug addictions
• 1:10:26
  SPEAKER_01: who were just not equipped to work with I would say then I would if you're curious
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_01: about it that's not enough then it's too big a deal I would say it's only for people
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_01: who feel a real full body yes and they're like
• 1:10:46
  SPEAKER_01: This is what I need or this is what I want or but there should not be a second
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_01: of doubt I think right so I think it narrows the it's
• 1:10:57
  SPEAKER_01: of course there's some some health considerations
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_01: that other plants don't have it has a way to prolong the QTC interval and
• 1:11:07
  SPEAKER_01: What does that mean?
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_01: Let's say that means like the time from the electrical charge for a heartbeat that
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_01: if you kind of make it do
• 1:11:17
  SPEAKER_01: a full medical screening that's important very very low heart rates are therefore
• 1:11:23
  SPEAKER_01: also excluded Right It's metabolized via kidney and liver so this has to be all
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_01: in good working condition so there was a full-on health screening
• 1:11:34
  SPEAKER_01: so it does exclude a few people not that many but I think that's one risk that needs
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_01: to be yes it's very safe unless you
• 1:11:49
  SPEAKER_01: and your cardiologist might say oh your heart's fine fine
• 1:11:53
  SPEAKER_01: for living is not necessarily the same as fine for iboga control so that's
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_01: where we have to be
• 1:12:01
  SPEAKER_01: Very, very strict.
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_01: I unfortunately had to turn an old friend away a few weeks ago.
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_01: It sucks, but the risk has to be kept at a minimum.
• 1:12:15
  SPEAKER_00: What's the legal status of Iboga?
• 1:12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Got it.
• 1:12:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's not ideal, it's not fully illegal, but I will not scream it from the rooftops.
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Right, okay.
• 1:12:31
  SPEAKER_00: Fascinating.
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Other than your rooftop here.
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_00: Other than this little porch.
• 1:12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:12:41
  SPEAKER_00: Fascinating.
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know much about Iboga and I began more than, you know,
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Have you seen the documentary?
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_01: I have not, no.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_01: That is worth it.
• 1:12:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think what it depicts quite well,
• 1:12:53
  SPEAKER_01: it's on Netflix,
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_01: is that I thought it would be like, oh,
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_01: these war veterans,
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_01: they resolve their trauma,
• 1:13:01
  SPEAKER_01: but it's more interestingly made in the sense of they start
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_01: with why would anybody...
• 1:13:08
  SPEAKER_01: Voluntarily go into the Navy or whatever.
• 1:13:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then to be really left sort of hanging with this huge amount of trauma
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_01: and they have absolutely no way other than pharmaceuticals that often don't work and
• 1:13:25
  SPEAKER_01: on and on and on.
• 1:13:27
  SPEAKER_01: So to see these like enormous muscly men kind of, yeah,
• 1:13:33
  SPEAKER_01: go on this one journey and turn into entirely different human beings is,
• 1:13:41
  SPEAKER_01: it can't totally, I mean,
• 1:13:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think since it's not,
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_01: what they're depicting is not the traditional context that we work like, however,
• 1:13:54
  SPEAKER_01: to have depicted in quite a good way how much of a punch it packs and how
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_01: Holy shit, you know, before and after, it sort of speaks for itself.
• 1:14:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I can recommend it as a good entryway.
• 1:14:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then I can send you a few videos on more like the traditional use,
• 1:14:15
  SPEAKER_01: which is also, it has symbolism and meaning.
• 1:14:19
  SPEAKER_01: And there's also an initiation right into adulthood, which...
• 1:14:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe people there undergo when they're 12, 13,
• 1:14:26
  SPEAKER_01: 14 and some people need to be in their 40s to go, ah, okay, it's time to grow up.
• 1:14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it is a very interesting substance in many ways and very welcome anytime.
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, thank you.
• 1:14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Should it ever come walking?
• 1:14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, if it comes calling, I will let you know.
• 1:14:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Don't rush into it.
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_01: It is really a commitment.
• 1:14:58
  SPEAKER_00: We were talking about it before.
• 1:15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Even though I'm fairly open-minded and have a few experiences of my own,
• 1:15:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm super conservative in many ways.
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Tremendous respect for psychedelics and really I agree with you completely it has
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_00: to be wholehearted you have to really feel like this is the right thing for me
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_01: the right time for me the right time for me
• 1:15:24
  SPEAKER_00: I have to say that just because I survived these first 20 years
• 1:15:27
  SPEAKER_00: of willy-nilly wild consumption of everything,
• 1:15:41
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean,
• 1:15:42
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 1:15:45
  SPEAKER_01: now that science is further and there's ethical guidelines and what is integration
• 1:15:52
  SPEAKER_01: and all these things.
• 1:15:53
  SPEAKER_01: This is incredibly valuable.
• 1:15:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you're totally doing the right thing by taking this seriously.
• 1:16:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:16:01
  SPEAKER_01: Just because I was robust enough to not be hurt by all
• 1:16:08
  SPEAKER_01: of these wild self experiments doesn't mean that it's always like that.
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's not necessarily a good idea.
• 1:16:17
  SPEAKER_00: Good that you brought that up because I did mean to ask you that before.
• 1:16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that it's something about your personality type that allowed you
• 1:16:24
  SPEAKER_00: to dive into this world that willy-nilly as you describe
• 1:16:29
  SPEAKER_00: and it actually working out?
• 1:16:32
  SPEAKER_01: Probably.
• 1:16:33
  SPEAKER_01: I must say the ADD must have something to do with it in terms of,
• 1:16:39
  SPEAKER_01: yeah, I was just a thrill seeker.
• 1:16:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I was, I think I've often asked mine that if I had a lot of fear as a young person.
• 1:16:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, yeah,
• 1:16:51
  SPEAKER_01: in some regards I did,
• 1:16:52
  SPEAKER_01: but then I would like run the other way to sort of compensate.
• 1:16:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm terrified of heights, so I go bungee jump.
• 1:16:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's like that kind of.
• 1:17:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:17:03
  SPEAKER_01: not so much anymore now that I'm older but I used to really live
• 1:17:08
  SPEAKER_01: in extremes like loving people and being easily overwhelmed so there's a lot
• 1:17:15
  SPEAKER_01: of internal conflicting messages to fit into one person
• 1:17:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then also,
• 1:17:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think, yeah,
• 1:17:25
  SPEAKER_01: probably from how I was also brought up to kind of figure things out on my own,
• 1:17:33
  SPEAKER_01: like I don't, like the not asking for help.
• 1:17:38
  SPEAKER_01: It was really interesting because when I was first asked to assist in
• 1:17:41
  SPEAKER_01: the psychedelic retreat,
• 1:17:44
  SPEAKER_01: like 13,
• 1:17:44
  SPEAKER_01: 14 years ago,
• 1:17:45
  SPEAKER_01: I thought, well, yeah, so you stand in the middle of the room and, you know, smile.
• 1:17:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:17:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because I had never in all those years prior,
• 1:17:56
  SPEAKER_01: it would have never occurred to me to ever ask for help.
• 1:17:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't mean...
• 1:18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right, when you were a participant, you didn't need the help.
• 1:18:03
  SPEAKER_01: I struggled, I had moments where I thought the guy running the ceremony is an evil cult leader.
• 1:18:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, really, not easy stuff, but I would muscle my way through and I think to...
• 1:18:17
  SPEAKER_01: To then be on the other end and see that people actually make use of
• 1:18:23
  SPEAKER_01: the people holding the space in the room was an unbelievably valuable insight
• 1:18:31
  SPEAKER_01: to say, ah, I don't have to
• 1:18:34
  SPEAKER_01: Muscle through everything on my own.
• 1:18:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that had a big effect on life.
• 1:18:40
  SPEAKER_01: So in that way,
• 1:18:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think...
• 1:18:43
  SPEAKER_01: And also when I started traveling being,
• 1:18:47
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, 20, 21 or something on my own, it's like without a smartphone.
• 1:18:53
  SPEAKER_01: So you kind of, you figure it out and you find yourself in sometimes really...
• 1:19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Absurd situations where you're like back against
• 1:19:04
  SPEAKER_01: the wall going oh my god this is gonna be my last evening so there's situations
• 1:19:09
  SPEAKER_01: where I don't know I just had to be somewhat street smart so I think in that way
• 1:19:16
  SPEAKER_01: that has helped me to be
• 1:19:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure if fearless is the right word,
• 1:19:24
  SPEAKER_01: but I have grown to trust myself in the way that I know I have
• 1:19:32
  SPEAKER_01: a very well-functioning common sense,
• 1:19:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm fair, I'm honest, there's a lot of good that I can rely on.
• 1:19:42
  SPEAKER_01: That must have also somewhere be planted in my childhood because I feel like I,
• 1:19:48
  SPEAKER_01: in all these really crazy adventures I've lived,
• 1:19:53
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of also knew when to walk away, when to pull the plug, when to say no.
• 1:19:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a bit of luck and good common sense, I guess, and good intuition.
• 1:20:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:20:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:20:04
  SPEAKER_01: So in that way, yeah, the personality type...
• 1:20:09
  SPEAKER_01: I guess helped and the curiosity that's again without
• 1:20:14
  SPEAKER_01: that I don't think I would be alive to say ah okay what about that corner
• 1:20:20
  SPEAKER_01: if we go just a little bit further there what else could be there so yeah
• 1:20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, since you were a facilitator at one retreat I've been to,
• 1:20:32
  SPEAKER_00: I can attest to you being a very, very solid presence.
• 1:20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:20:39
  SPEAKER_00: And all of these experiences surely make you a great, great...
• 1:20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Facilitator Rock For People Who Are Going Through Whether It's Iboga
• 1:20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Or Psilocybin You Were A Fantastic Presence In My Experience And
• 1:20:57
  SPEAKER_00: Whenever I needed something, I just looked at you and you're like, hey, and that was enough.
• 1:21:02
  SPEAKER_00: If you need any help, it's like, ah, this is safe.
• 1:21:05
  SPEAKER_00: You're very good at making people feel safe and you'll get through it.
• 1:21:12
  SPEAKER_00: You give off those vibes, like, yes, you'll get through it.
• 1:21:14
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's difficult, don't worry, you'll get through it.
• 1:21:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah that I would say so yeah So you did have
• 1:21:21
  SPEAKER_01: a good experience Oh yeah fantastic I had a lovely experience And did it when you
• 1:21:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because of course I remember you sharing very well But
• 1:21:29
  SPEAKER_01: when you left there Was there something in particular That you kind
• 1:21:34
  SPEAKER_01: of could preserve Or that I don't know Added to your life as it is now
• 1:21:39
  SPEAKER_00: That was valuable It's a good question I
• 1:21:47
  SPEAKER_00: The one thing that really stuck with me which I talked about in the podcast before
• 1:21:52
  SPEAKER_00: in the conversation with Hannah is I really felt like
• 1:21:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I get it what religious people are talking about right now.
• 1:22:01
  SPEAKER_00: I really felt like the presence of something divine and for a while,
• 1:22:07
  SPEAKER_00: for a good solid few hours, it just made complete sense.
• 1:22:12
  SPEAKER_00: It was the most obvious thing ever.
• 1:22:14
  SPEAKER_00: I get it.
• 1:22:15
  SPEAKER_00: I get it.
• 1:22:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to talk to my religious friends after this.
• 1:22:20
  SPEAKER_00: I get it.
• 1:22:20
  SPEAKER_00: I get it now.
• 1:22:22
  SPEAKER_00: That was the one thing that stood out for me,
• 1:22:24
  SPEAKER_00: which I've kind of dabbled in before,
• 1:22:27
  SPEAKER_00: I told you about the DMT experience,
• 1:22:29
  SPEAKER_00: but it was just so intense this time and so tangible that it's like,
• 1:22:34
  SPEAKER_00: yeah, I guess there's something to this stuff.
• 1:22:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah,
• 1:22:37
  SPEAKER_01: because I know that that window can close and especially when it comes
• 1:22:41
  SPEAKER_01: to something like as
• 1:22:44
  SPEAKER_01: monumental as religion then it can be a bitter pill to swallow
• 1:22:48
  SPEAKER_01: and say okay I now let this also shape my worldview so has that kind of are you
• 1:22:57
  SPEAKER_01: a bit more cozy with it still or do you say oh this is now
• 1:23:02
  SPEAKER_01: a faint memory I don't think there's anything to it
• 1:23:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would say to me, this might sound strange, but to me it doesn't really matter.
• 1:23:12
  SPEAKER_00: I don't really feel like it would change my life if God is real or not.
• 1:23:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm already trying to live a good life long before I did any psychedelics
• 1:23:24
  SPEAKER_00: or anything like that I've tried to live a good life in whatever sense of the word
• 1:23:29
  SPEAKER_00: that I can so I've never articulated this in this way that it doesn't really matter
• 1:23:37
  SPEAKER_00: to me but that's how I feel like yeah this could be real or it's not
• 1:23:42
  SPEAKER_00: So whatever,
• 1:23:44
  SPEAKER_00: live a good life anyway as if it were real Exactly, yeah,
• 1:23:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a wonderful takeaway and it's also how I feel because I was holding
• 1:23:52
  SPEAKER_01: on to being an atheist for so long and then these experiences I'm like,
• 1:23:58
  SPEAKER_01: but you know, and then if this feeling or this connection isn't in any way real then
• 1:24:06
  SPEAKER_01: Why does it keep happening?
• 1:24:08
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't call myself atheist anymore I would probably say agnostic Probably
• 1:24:14
  SPEAKER_00: there's something going on I don't know what it is But
• 1:24:18
  SPEAKER_00: To each their own, right?
• 1:24:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's still where I'm quite cozy at.
• 1:24:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Who knows?
• 1:24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Who knows?
• 1:24:26
  SPEAKER_01: And to find when we went to Gabon to be initiated with Iboga,
• 1:24:34
  SPEAKER_01: I said, I want Iboga to tell me how the universe works.
• 1:24:44
  SPEAKER_01: Aljosja Yoshi Ziga aljosja Yoshi's Podcast
• 1:25:02
  SPEAKER_01: that's hilarious yeah so I think that was
• 1:25:07
  SPEAKER_01: a oh I mean I said several times I'm driven by curiosity right that's fine and
• 1:25:13
  SPEAKER_01: that has its place but it's also the the constant like needing to know like what
• 1:25:22
  SPEAKER_01: if I'm uh
• 1:25:23
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm an atheist then what if there are like all this driven by
• 1:25:27
  SPEAKER_01: that is also not very fruitful so I thought that what this experience there kind
• 1:25:33
  SPEAKER_01: of brought me is to say I don't know and I will never know
• 1:25:38
  SPEAKER_01: and that's fine I can accept that and just like you said that
• 1:25:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, being kind of aiming to be living a content life.
• 1:25:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have to be happy, ecstatic every day of the week.
• 1:25:54
  SPEAKER_01: Who cares?
• 1:25:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's just to sort of, yeah, see like, how can I be a decent human being?
• 1:26:01
  SPEAKER_00: Do the best you can.
• 1:26:02
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 1:26:02
  SPEAKER_01: Do the best you can and have a positive impact here and there.
• 1:26:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:26:09
  SPEAKER_00: And try to minimize the negative impact.
• 1:26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Don't be an asshole.
• 1:26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:26:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's a wonderful place for us to wrap things up at.
• 1:26:20
  SPEAKER_00: If people want to find you, find your retreats, where should they go?
• 1:26:24
  SPEAKER_01: They should go to soulforest.net
• 1:26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Soul Forest, S-O-U-L.
• 1:26:30
  SPEAKER_01: Soul and Forest is one word.
• 1:26:33
  SPEAKER_01: .net.
• 1:26:34
  SPEAKER_01: Fantastic.
• 1:26:35
  SPEAKER_01: We can reach out and there's a free info call is always, of course, totally no strings attached.
• 1:26:42
  SPEAKER_01: So if someone's curious and wants to say,
• 1:26:45
  SPEAKER_01: maybe this is for me, then I'm very happy to talk to anyone who might be interested.
• 1:26:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:26:51
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 1:26:51
  SPEAKER_00: Sounds great.
• 1:26:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'll put the link in the description so people can find it.
• 1:26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 1:26:55
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll save the crazy Japan stories you have for our next conversation.
• 1:27:00
  SPEAKER_00: That has to be the next conversation.
• 1:27:02
  SPEAKER_00: A little cliffhanger for the viewers.
• 1:27:05
  SPEAKER_01: There's some more.
• 1:27:07
  SPEAKER_01: There's more.
• 1:27:07
  SPEAKER_00: We'll talk more.
• 1:27:08
  SPEAKER_00: We'll talk more.
• 1:27:09
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 1:27:10
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 1:27:10
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for sitting down and having a chat with me.
• 1:27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for coming all the way.
• 1:27:14
  SPEAKER_01: I know you had another exciting engagement, but thanks for stopping by.
• 1:27:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very very very happy that we got this opportunity yeah me too thank you so much
• 1:27:23
  SPEAKER_00: and look forward to more more of them in the future I'm in awesome all right
• 1:27:29
  SPEAKER_00: and thanks to everyone for tuning in catch you next time all right bye bye bye