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Our Will and Lives - Step 3 and Why it Matters · Not a Doorknob

• 0:00
  Hey, welcome back to The Big Book Deep Dive here on Progress and Perfection. You can find more information on our website. You can contact us. All the links for that will be in the description below. My name is Eamon.
• 0:10
  I'm joined by my good friend, John. Here we go. Yeah, dude, that'll fire you up. Yeah. Those guys are insane. Yes. Yes. Those guys are insane. Okay, so step three. Here we are, step three.
• 0:24
  Being convinced we were at step three, which is that we decided to turn our will and our life over to God as we understood Him. Just what do we mean by that, and just what do we do?
• 0:37
  The first requirement is that we be convinced that any life run on self-will can hardly be a success. On that basis, we are almost always in collusion with something or somebody, even though our motives are good.
• 0:50
  Most people try to live by self-propulsion. Each person is like an actor who wants to run the whole show, is forever trying to arrange the lights, the ballet, the scenery, and the rest of the players in his own way.
• 1:03
  If his arrangements would only stay put, if only people would do as he wished, the show would be great. Everybody, including himself, would be pleased. Life would be wonderful.
• 1:13
  In trying to make these arrangements, our actor may sometimes be quite virtuous. He may be kind, considerate, patient, generous, even modest and self-sacrificing.
• 1:23
  On the other hand, he may be mean, egotistical, selfish, and dishonest. But as with most humans, he is more likely to have varied traits. What usually happens? The show doesn't come off very well.
• 1:36
  He begins to think life doesn't treat him right. He decides to exert himself more. He becomes, on the next occasion, still more de- demanding or gracious, as the case may be. Still, the play does not suit him.
• 1:50
  Admitting he may be somewhat at fault, he is sure that other people are more to blame. He becomes angry, indignant, self-pitying. What is his basic trouble? He is not really a self-seeker even when trying to be...
• 2:02
  Is he not really a self-seeker even when trying to be kind? Is he not a victim of the delusion that he can wrest satisfaction and happiness out of this world if he only manages well?
• 2:14
  Is it not evident to all the rest of the players that these are the things that he wants? And do not his actions make each of them wish to retaliate, snatching all they can get out of the show?
• 2:26
  Is he not, even in his best moments, a producer of confusion rather than harmony? Our actor is self-centered, egocentric, as people like to call it nowadays.
• 2:38
  He is like the retired businessman who lolls in the Florida sunshine in the winter, complaining of the sad state of the nation, the minister who sighs over the sins of the 20th century, politicians and reformers who are sure all the world, all would, would, sorry, who are sure all would be utopia if the rest of the world would only behave, the outlaw safecracker who thinks society has wronged him, and the alcoholic who has lost all and is locked up.
• 3:05
  Whatever our protestations, are not most of us concerned with ourselves, our resentments, or our self-pity? Self-ce- selfishness, self-centeredness, that we think is the root of our troubles.
• 3:17
  Driven by a hundred forms of fear, self-delusion, self-seeking, and self-pity, we step on the toes of our fellows and they retaliate.
• 3:25
  Sometimes they hurt us, seemingly without provocation, but we invariably find that at some time in the past, we have made decisions based on self which later placed us in a position to be hurt. Hmm.
• 3:40
  Yeah, I'm glad you read all that because it, I almost interrupted a couple times, but it's, it does just keep building and building on this one theme that is driven home right there at the end, that last paragraph.
• 3:53
  Mm-hmm. Selfishness. Yeah. Um, so the first requirement is that we be convinced any life run on self-will can hardly be a success.
• 4:09
  How does this, how does a person, how did you get to that point? Did that happen at this point where it is written in the steps between two and three? Um, for me, I don't think so. Mm-hmm. I mean, I think
• 4:28
  in my experience, the, maybe it was refined at step three, but I think the surrender had, had already come. Hmm. I mean, I think I had waved the white flag long before I probably even knew what the 12 steps were. Mm-hmm.
• 4:44
  I just didn't know what to do then. Yeah. So it was kind of like- A what now situation.
• 4:48
  Yeah, kinda like this surrender point and, like, this, this sort of, like, declaration that, okay, I'm gonna live my life differently. I'm gonna live for the Lord. But I don't really know what that means.
• 4:58
  I don't know what that looks like. You know? So, so no real tangible way to put that into practice. Um, so yeah, I think for me it probably occurred prior to step three. Yeah.
• 5:13
  And, and for me too, this was more, almost like a first step type of deal, even before I'd stopped all the way drinking. Hmm.
• 5:21
  Uh, I attached this, really this first page 60 through 61, what it describes here as, like, the end of my drinking, the end of my using, the shift from
• 5:34
  basically everything it describes here, where I'm basically kind of a good person, but I'm, you know, world's treating me wrong. I'm getting some bad cards.
• 5:43
  Uh, I'm, I'm mainly doing the right things, but I, I'm just a victim of this delusion- Mm-hmm... that it describes. And at some point in there, I feel as though this, uh, this being convinced part happened for me too.
• 5:59
  Mm-hmm. Um, but exactly what you said. It's like, well- The only thing I knew to do at that point was literally go ask my parents for help. Right. And I really didn't wanna do that.
• 6:08
  And I put that off [laughs] you know, until I couldn't put that off. Right. But that's what it meant for me, was like- Mm-hmm... "Well, I'm in a crap. I am in a backed up against a wall." Right.
• 6:19
  Rock and a hard place situation. Right. Um- Yeah. I, I feel like I had just played all the cards that it describes- [clears throat]... in the, in that page, like on page 61. Mm-hmm.
• 6:30
  And, and, and I mean, they, they looked a lot different than that, but- Mm-hmm... but just that idea of effort after effort after effort to try to make it work out, um,
• 6:40
  and just realizing, you know, at the end of the day, like, you know, literally in the hospital, just, like, understanding that there's nowhere else to go. Like, there's [laughs] there's no place to go at this point.
• 6:53
  Yeah. There are no cards left to be dealt. Um, I mean, there's one card left to be dealt. Yeah. Uh, but I'd rather [laughs] avoid that card. I'd rather, rather not. Yeah.
• 7:04
  You know, so there was, there was this sort of surrender. But I think, like, something else that it points to that, um, sort of tipped off in my brain is also just, like, this, um,
• 7:20
  I don't know, this almost narcissistic mask that a lot of us end up wearing when we're in the midst of our addiction, where we are very selfish and we are very self-centered, and we are very much, like, casting blame on other people or playing a victim role to make ourselves feel better.
• 7:39
  It's the idea I tell the people I work with, the idea of addict brain. Mm-hmm.
• 7:44
  You know, that addict brain exists, like, when we're in sort of our addictive cycle, and we're, we're in this, this sort of dance with our, with our drug or with alcohol.
• 7:54
  Um, and that it's, it's, it's different than sober-mindedness, which is what I think we're, we're ultimately seeking through the 12 steps, is just this feeling of peace and sort of
• 8:06
  contentment, uh, rather than just angst that's sort of masked with narcissism and selfishness. Mm-hmm. Um, that was the other thing that stuck out to me. Yeah.
• 8:21
  Where do you think the line is between, and I guess they overlap probably, like, true narcissism and just- Mm-hmm... uh, the haze of active addiction?
• 8:34
  Yeah, that's a great question, [laughs] and it's, um, it's so funny because that's like a... It's like you're waging a bet if you're a loved one of an alcoholic. Yeah.
• 8:45
  Specifically a spouse, because when they're in active addiction, they're behaving this, this just raging narcissist, and the hope is that after the person gets sober and becomes sober-minded, that, um, the book alluded to it, but that it's merely traits that can- Mm...
• 9:00
  be extinguished with sober-mindedness. But there are rare occasions where people can get sober, and they're still narcissists. Yeah. So it doesn't necessarily cure the core, like, [laughs] soul problem.
• 9:17
  Uh, they just get sober, and now they're just, like, a sober dick. Yeah. You know? As opposed to- Yeah... a drunk dick. [laughs] Uh, but it... Yeah, but I mean, it is, it, it, it... More times than not, it goes away.
• 9:31
  Yeah. More times than not, it dissipates altogether and then the traits get extinguished, and the person literally becomes, like the book sort of alludes to, this new creation
• 9:43
  and this sort of emergence, you know, freedom from all this tyranny that they created for themselves. So, and, and I assume that you are talking about if they're actively seeking a solution. Correct.
• 10:00
  Because there's something interesting that happens, uh, not always, but sometimes where you sober up and you don't really dive into the solution, but you do start feeling better. Sure. And so- Right...
• 10:12
  some of those tr- uh, negative traits go away. You have this breath of fresh air. Mm-hmm. You know, call it the pink cloud in, in- Right... sobriety, uh- Right... or in recovery.
• 10:21
  Um, but then, like, without injecting something substantial, a foundation, if you will. That's right. Uh, how long can that last? That's right. You know? That's right.
• 10:32
  I'm working with somebody right now, and we're distinguishing this idea between abstinence and sober-mindedness. Mm-hmm. And abstinence for an alcoholic honestly isn't that hard to obtain- Mm-hmm... because I can go
• 10:49
  60 days without drinking because I know on day 61, it's on like Donkey Kong. Yeah.
• 10:54
  So there's a huge difference between sort of this goal of abstinence and this goal of sober-mindedness, and it's like I was telling this person, they're, they're, um, they're, they're sort of challenging themselves to stay abstinent for a year.
• 11:09
  Mm-hmm. Uh, and so we entered into this gray area, uh,
• 11:14
  right around the time you would expect, you know, 60 days out from last drink, 70 days out from last drink, where they're feeling restless, irritable, and discontent. Mm-hmm. You know, life doesn't feel much different.
• 11:28
  They feel super uncomfortable in a lot of situations. Um, and I did, I threw on them the idea of the 12 steps, and of course they balked pretty hard [laughs] 'cause, like- [laughs]...
• 11:39
  "I don't know that I'm ready for that." I'm like, "Well, you know, it's the difference between abstinence and sober-mindedness truly." You know? You know what, what, what is that?
• 11:49
  Is that just what defines an addict or an alcoholic, is that when you take it away, it doesn't get better? Or, or what do you... Or is that really a spiritual void that we all have to some degree? Mm-hmm.
• 12:01
  'Cause you, you see some people, I mean, th- this is not the only way to get and stay sober. Right. And I, and further, I don't think it's the only way to get and stay sober and, and happy and fulfilled too. Sure.
• 12:12
  If, if you can call those goals. Mm-hmm. Sure. But where, where's that... Do you have any thoughts on the line there? Yeah. I, I mean, it's, I don't know. It, it, it's probably a lot of it is
• 12:27
  maybe contingent on personality traits. I mean, that's a great question. I'm gonna have to think about it. Mm. Because there are people who I'm sure we both know, I know certainly that have just stopped drinking.
• 12:41
  Something's happened in their life and they've just stopped drinking, and they have no desire to drink again, and they're not gonna drink again.
• 12:48
  But they had, they didn't do it through AA and they didn't do it through 12 steps. Yeah. But it is this true, like, sober-mindedness- [clears throat]... that's emerged. Yeah. Um,
• 12:58
  you know, and so, like, maybe, maybe it has more to do with a personality type- Mm... uh, than, than anything else. I don't know. That's a good question. It makes me think about the idea of, like, um,
• 13:18
  like an addictive personality. Yeah. You know, because there's some people that drink that don't necessarily have an addictive personality. They are just addicted to alcohol. Mm-hmm.
• 13:29
  But I think maybe there's some, some crossover there to your question. If you have an addictive personality, you're much more likely to gravitate again towards something that's destructive. Mm-hmm. I don't know. Mm.
• 13:41
  I'll have to think about that. Okay. Hmm. Any other thoughts on that passage? Uh, no. We're about to get some more, more of the same, though. All right. "So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making." Gulp.
• 13:55
  "They arise [laughs] they arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example of self will run riot, though he usually doesn't think so. A- above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness.
• 14:07
  We must, or it kills us. God makes that possible, and there often seems no way of entirely getting rid of self without His aid.
• 14:16
  Many of us had moral and philosophical convictions galore, but we could not live up to them, even though we would have liked to. Neither could we reduce our self-centeredness much by wishing or trying on our own power.
• 14:30
  We had to have God's help." All right. Before we go forward, is there anything that w- that you would retort against on this? 'Cause this is basically the theme, I feel like this is the heart of this entire text. Mm-hmm.
• 14:47
  Like, the book itself, not just this passage. Mm-hmm. Uh, the thes- the s- thesis, if you will. Mm-hmm. Selfishness. I- is this, does this hold up? Does this hold water for you? Tell me what you're thinking.
• 15:00
  It does for me. Mm-hmm. I was, I was wondering if, if we need to, uh- Mm-hmm... tear it apart at all. Mm-hmm. Because we kinda go from [clears throat] okay, we're convinced we're at step three. Right.
• 15:11
  We've just gotten done with basically two, maybe two and a half, three chapters worth of talking about God and the fact that we are screwed, and we need to accept spiritual help if we're afflicted with this malady.
• 15:25
  Mm-hmm. Now we're convinced we're at step three, which is just the order that they've put it in- Mm-hmm...
• 15:31
  where we need to ask God to, well, we need to turn our will and lives over to Him, because, it says, selfishness is the root of our problems. Mm-hmm. Uh, I have no qualms with that. Mm-hmm.
• 15:43
  That was a, a revelation actually to me when I got here with my sponsor, but I do get people that, uh, sometimes it feels like whiplash to them. Hmm. Like, "Oh, wait, what are we talking about here?" Mm-hmm.
• 15:58
  "Selfishness?" Mm-hmm. "I mean, I'm, I'm a decent person. You know, sure, I've had a problem with alcohol." Mm-hmm.
• 16:03
  But some of it is the, you take what we just talked about, I think we could take the problem away and, or the alcohol away, and the problem would go away. Um, but, but that, that does not seem to work. Mm-hmm. Uh, so.
• 16:20
  Right. D- do you encounter that a lot, or is this something that... It, it's just second nature to me because I've been looking at this passage- Right... reciting it- Right...
• 16:31
  playing off themes on it for years and years and years and years now. Mm-hmm. So I, I don't really think about it- Mm-hmm... in terms of accepting it for what it actually is. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I don't either.
• 16:44
  It seems seamless to me. Like, the greatest act of selflessness is to give up that right to yourself and rely on something else for wisdom, for guidance, for direction. Mm-hmm.
• 17:01
  Um, and so I'm like you. It just seems so seamless, uh, and almost effortless. Um, and I don't know. I mean, by the time I see people, like, they're usually, for the most part, fully aware of- Yeah...
• 17:16
  just how selfish [laughs] it seems- It's pretty obvious, but yeah... an individual that they are. Yeah. Uh, and honestly, like, at that point, I don't really have a problem pointing it out to them, you know? Yeah.
• 17:29
  I wonder if, I wonder if the... 'Cause I, I do see people come into the rooms, you know, just as a trend over the last probably 40 years. You know, longer than I've been in the rooms, but we get there younger.
• 17:45
  I'm a case, case point in example. I got there at 19. Right. We've talked about this in the past. In the early days, like, it was adults. Mm-hmm. Like, young people didn't.
• 17:54
  But as we have this body of experience, young people are getting there, uh, sooner and faster. Thank God for it. Mm-hmm. But I guess I'm, I'm coming at this from a perspective- Mm-hmm...
• 18:04
  of having seen over the years I've been in AA, some people maybe get there before they are really at a desperate point. Yeah. Or really where something like this- Right...
• 18:15
  doesn't seem like a pulling the rug out from under them. Right. Um, where the seat you're sitting in- Mm-hmm... from a professional counseling pers- you know- Doesn't usually. Mm-hmm.
• 18:25
  U- usually there's shit hitting the fan by that point. Yeah, and honestly, like, now that I'm thinking about it, um, you know, I think a lot of it also just has to do with, like, your developmental stage.
• 18:38
  You know, I don't work a lot with, like, teenagers. I mostly work with, you know, people in their- Mm... late 20s and up. I mean, I get a few sprinkling of teenagers, but they're in no place to get sober.
• 18:50
  Like, they've, that's not even- Yeah... like, on their radar simply because they're freaking as selfish as can be. Yeah. You know, they're little freaking 18-year-old, you know, versions of me- Yeah. [laughs]...
• 19:03
  just turds. Like, "Whatever, dude. You know, you know, you don't know anything, and I know everything." Ugh. You know, they're not ready to, to, uh, give up their God seat for the God of the universe quite yet. Yeah.
• 19:15
  You know, and so it doesn't even... This wouldn't even enter into their- Mm-hmm... like, sphere- No convincing me... of existence. Like, uh-uh. Yeah. You know, absolutely not.
• 19:27
  You know, and I think maybe that's a testimony to the Lord's, um, just grace upon you that even- Mm... at 19, you know, at such an early developmental stage, you were willing to, like,
• 19:41
  give up that right, uh, and give it to something greater. Willing enough for long enough at just the right time- Mm... for some stuff to start sticking. Yeah. Big time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. All right.
• 19:56
  So yes, selfishness is the root of the trouble, and yes, we had to have God's help. "This is the how and why of it. First of all, we had to quit playing God. It didn't work. Next, we decided that..."
• 20:10
  [laughs] I love how it's just like it's that easy. [laughs] That's pretty funny. It's like, first, here it is, and then next, it's l- you know, after all the opining- [laughs]... that we've had for chapters- Well...
• 20:19
  of like, "Let's m- make this clear. Let's try to, you know-" Yeah... "finagle our way in. Here's this declaration," and then they move- Yeah... straight on. Next. Uh, okay, let me... Just for repet- repetition. Yeah.
• 20:28
  "This is the, this is the how and why of it. First of all, we had to quit playing God. It didn't work. Next, we decided that hereafter in this drama of life, God was going to be our director. He is the principal.
• 20:39
  We are his agents. He is the father, and we are his children. Most good ideas are simple, and this concept was the keystone of the new and triumphant arc through which we passed to freedom.
• 20:52
  When we sincerely took such a position, all sorts of remarkable things followed. We had a new employer. Being all-powerful, he provided what we needed if we kept close to him and performed his work well.
• 21:04
  Established on such a footing, we became less and less interested in ourselves, our little plans and designs. More and more, we became interested in seeing what we could contribute to life.
• 21:14
  As we felt new power flow in, as we enjoyed peace of mind, as we discovered we could face life successfully, as we became conscious of his presence, we began to lose our fear of today, tomorrow, or the hereafter.
• 21:28
  We were reborn." That's some pretty powerful promises there. Yeah, bro. And I, I think it's worth noting because there's a few times in the book where Bill sort of gets off and opines about some
• 21:42
  fairly, m- I would say, miraculous things, changes of heart, mind, and soul. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I would just comment that, yes, this is a decision at a decision point, but that this is a process that takes place. Yeah.
• 21:58
  And I think we've kind of done one of these pauses a few times now. Like- Mm... it's just, this is a daily...
• 22:04
  This is why the daily repetition of some of the practices of recovery are so important because we don't just arrive at, "Okay, I'm reborn- That's right... and everything's great." That's right. [laughs] That's right.
• 22:16
  And some days, everything is great. Mm-hmm. And like, we have these moments, and we have great pink cloud early sobriety as we're doing the right stuff, like- For sure... af- affirmative, "This is awesome." Mm-hmm.
• 22:30
  But you know what? We got m- we're gonna have down times, too- That's right... and well into our sobriety, not just- Right... early. Right. Um, but that repetition is the...
• 22:40
  I would follow up this keystone or cornerstone that it talks about, the repetition is what cements that into place- Yeah... ov- over time. Couldn't agree more. I mean, it's putting these practices into work- Yeah...
• 22:52
  and being committed to the process. Um, I can't remember if I said this prior, but, like, even that idea of being reborn, if you look in the, in the gospel, that only happens one time,
• 23:10
  and that's with Saul. Hmm. Where it was this sort of instantaneous transformation- Yeah... where he went from this- This person-... absolutely horrific murderer-... to this person... to the Lord Christ is my savior.
• 23:23
  Like, that's the only guy. Right. Even the, the 12 disciples that were around Jesus were full of doubt, were full of fear- Mm-hmm... were full of anxiety.
• 23:32
  You've got the cases where he shows up to Thomas after he's risen, and Thomas is still like, "Whatever, dude." Yeah. Not buying it. I'm not buying it. [laughs] You know? So, like, w- I don't know.
• 23:42
  I see that as such, like, comfort, um, to the whole process, that it's not something that's suddenly grasped. For some people, it is, okay? Like, maybe- Sure... statistically, sure- Sure...
• 23:53
  maybe somebody out the gate's just like, "Whoa," you know. Mm. Life change, you know, that's, that's residual and- Mm... continues on up to eternity. But for most of us, it is just like you describe. Mm.
• 24:07
  It's just this up and down, consistently, like, plodding along- Mm... engaging in tools until we gradually get our footing a little bit more solid and feel as though, like, we can move again. Yeah.
• 24:21
  You know, and slowly but surely, the big ups, the drastic mountain peaks and, and valleys Turn into just like Mm-hmm... you know, hills and ditches. Yeah. You know? We feel a little bit more stable. Mm-hmm.
• 24:36
  Um, but yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, 'cause I think that's important. Okay, we were now at step three.
• 24:44
  "Many of us said to our Maker as we understood Him, 'God, I offer myself to Thee, to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will.
• 24:55
  Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy power, Thy love, and Thy way of life. May I do Thy will always.'
• 25:05
  We thought well before taking this step, making sure we were ready, that we could at last abandon ourselves utterly to Him." So that's the third step prayer. That's the third step prayer. The, the suggested prayer.
• 25:16
  That's it. Well, well I- I give that thing to all kinds of people. Yeah. Same here. This is... And I say it. Mm-hmm. I mean, this is another one of those things just, it's just etched in my being at this point. Yep, yep.
• 25:28
  100%. And I love it, 'cause it's simple, it puts me in right alignment. Yep. Takes me out of the picture. Takes me out of it- Mm-hmm... which is the right alignment for me. Mm-hmm.
• 25:37
  Um, and gets me directed back towards who I decided to turn my will and life over to. Right. All right. Uh, what about this idea, "We thought well before taking this step, making sure we were ready"?
• 25:53
  So I've, I've changed my stance on this over the years- Mm-hmm... somewhat. Mm-hmm. Um, I used to...
• 26:03
  Honestly, I think I used to drag my feet a little bit more when working with someone directly through the steps, um, in terms of getting, uh, almost like, it was almost like I was trying to interview somebody.
• 26:15
  Like, are you really, you know, are, are you pulling my chain? Are you really ready to do this? Are you really serious? Mm-hmm. Are you really willing? Mm-hmm. Okay.
• 26:23
  Well, if you are, I guess you are, then let's, let's do this. This is gonna be a big deal. Let's go do it. And it is a big deal. Yeah. I don't wanna discount that at all.
• 26:32
  And I remember when I did, I prayed this with my f- uh, first sponsor, you know, over at his house the very first time. Mm-hmm. And, and there have been people, um, and I can think of a couple, that it's been a very,
• 26:46
  uh, poignant moment in their sobriety that I've been able to share that with. Mm-hmm. However, by and large, I think I've laxed up a little bit, and I, I, I think that this is a great direction.
• 26:59
  The wording, it's about to say the wording is optional. Yeah. This just, this is a good diagram- Yeah... framework, if you will. Yeah. Um, I think that anyone who is...
• 27:10
  I think this is a great tool for anybody who is admitting that they have an issue and are ready to try something different. Mm-hmm.
• 27:19
  Um, what I used to tell people also, and I've, I've probably told this to you before, is, is, you know, I'd, I'd even make it ev- easier for them after we got to this point, um, for those that bucked up against God,
• 27:33
  that this is just a decision to work the rest of the steps. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and so I'll still use that also- Yeah... in terms of, "Hey, the way you're living is not working." Right.
• 27:45
  And, and if we're talking about this, it's usually, for them, evident at that point. Mm-hmm. The way we're living here is not working. Let's try something different. Uh, let's commit to...
• 27:56
  And like you said with, you know, this guy you're working with, or gal, let's commit to something. Mm-hmm. Let's commit to working the rest of the steps. Right. Let's use this prayer as a starting point- Mm-hmm...
• 28:07
  to turn your will over to something else- Yeah... to God. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and in that sense, long answer, but in that sense, I think today I, I'm a little more liberal in- Mm-hmm... in how I would dole it out. Mm-hmm.
• 28:22
  Um, I don't work with as many people one-on-one, just by nature of where I'm at in, in the season of life right now too, so that's, that's different than what it used to be as well.
• 28:32
  I mean, we used to sit down and do what you and me are doing with everybody I worked with. Right. And that's, that has changed. Mm-hmm. Um. Mm-hmm. What about you? Uh, I mean,
• 28:47
  I kinda like the idea of taking the, taking the moment to study yourself. Mm-hmm. I mean, I, I was listening to a podcast, and there was a quote.
• 28:58
  I can't remember who it was attributed to, but it was like, "The spirit in which you pray depends... The spirit in which you pray has everything to do with the spirit that answers the prayer."
• 29:16
  Hmm. And I thought that was really, really poignant. So, like, if you're bitter and you're praying something and you're resentful and you're just like...
• 29:25
  Then, then the spirit that answers that resentment is a spirit of resentment. Mm-hmm. So it's almost, it's almost like be careful how you pray and who you're praying to. Hmm. Um,
• 29:42
  because your prayer will be answered. It just depends on who answers the prayer. Hmm. Yeah. And I was like, d- that hit me in the face. I was like, "Damn, that's sobering." Yeah.
• 29:52
  Um, and so I kind of see it in that guise, you know? And it, it, it's just the idea that I've sat on prior, like, make sure you know who you're praying to when you offer up that prayer. Mm-hmm. Because there's lots of...
• 30:08
  There's, there's plenty of things in the spiritual realm that are willing to answer that prayer for you. Hmm. And you want the right guy. [laughs] You want the right guy answering that prayer. Yeah.
• 30:18
  Um, and so I think there is, there's a... And, and, and I'm not saying it has to be this total understanding. I mean, nobody understands God, so- Right, right... it doesn't have to be this sort of like, you know,
• 30:28
  pompous-... high understanding of who God is, but I do think there needs to be at least a sort of foundational understanding of who this God is that you're making this prayer to.
• 30:43
  Um, 'cause that could be a real dangerous prayer to be prayed to the wrong God. If that's not going to the right guy, yeah. That could be a problem. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?
• 30:53
  So, like, I think, I don't know, I think there is some, some wisdom to, to be had of, like, helping... It's almost like carrying that person through the prayer with you. Mm-hmm.
• 31:10
  So almost allowing, I don't even know if this makes sense. You can tell me. It's almost allowing your faith to be theirs in that moment. Mm-hmm.
• 31:19
  Understanding where they are in their spiritual journey, understanding that grace abounds, but also understanding that the Lord knows you
• 31:28
  and the Lord hears your prayer and the Lord would be willing to come alongside you and enter into this partnership to help this person grow. I don't know. That may be too meta. No, I think it's...
• 31:42
  I don't think it is, 'cause I'm, I'm thinking of, I'm comparing just personally the, uh, guy that I've recently been working with to maybe a few years back, another individual I've got in mind.
• 31:56
  And a few years back, it was very much in line with what you just described. Mm-hmm. And, and we were kinda doing a traditional working of the steps, and there was some faith borrowing, for sure. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 32:07
  And I think that that's paid dividends. Yeah. You know, just looking at his life today and, and the faith that I see- Mm-hmm... that was just, you know, seedlings. Right.
• 32:17
  And then looking at this, uh, a more recent guy, we're brother in Christ, like, there was no issue of faith. Mm-hmm.
• 32:26
  And we did kind of almost skip through and accelerate to the, kind of a accelerated path to the fourth step- Mm-hmm... because of that. Yeah. Yeah. But I, I, I,
• 32:38
  as I'm thinking about what I said previously and listening to what you said, I definitely agree that I think that's more right- Hmm... of taking a s- a, a moment to steady yourself- Mm-hmm...
• 32:50
  and to really be firm- Mm-hmm... in what, what's going on here. Right. I mean, this is not... It shouldn't be taken haphazardly. Right. Definitely. Right. Right. Yeah, I mean, if you...
• 33:04
  I don't have to say it, but if you substitute the opposite of God- Yeah... at the beginning of that- Yeah... you got big problems. Yeah. Trouble.
• 33:13
  Like- Worst, worst problems that we have before- Not that you would, not that you would actually do that, but- Right... there still is this idea of a- Right... substitutionary God- Yeah...
• 33:21
  that you would be turning yourself over to. Yeah. And that, just, no, man, that sounds, that even... S- I mean, that gives me the chills sitting right now thinking about it. Mm-hmm. Just, like,
• 33:32
  without even knowing what you're really doing. And so I think, like, you know, I'm glad we're revisiting this, but- Hmm... I think it does sort of double down on, on sort of us
• 33:42
  as spiritual mentors when we're walking people through this to allow our faith to be their faith- Hmm... even in those moments, and really ask for, like, God's protection- Hmm... as they're praying that prayer. Hmm.
• 33:56
  Didn't know we were gonna go there. How about that? But, uh, whatever. [laughs] "We found it very desirable to take this spiritual step with an understanding person, such as our wife, best friend, or spiritual advisor.
• 34:07
  But it is better to meet God alone than with one who might misunderstand. The wording was, of course, quite optional so long as we expressed the idea, voicing it without reservation.
• 34:18
  This was only a beginning, though if honestly and humbly made, an effect, sometimes a very great one, was felt at once." Did you feel anything at once? So for steps three, four, five, six, seven, all that stuff,
• 34:33
  I, I felt a, a pretty strong sense of I'm on the right path. Yeah. Right. Um, uh, I f- I probably felt it more doing this prayer because, as I said, I remember kneeling down- Mm-hmm...
• 34:45
  at a beaten-up old couch at David, who was my first sponsor's, house- Mm-hmm... and praying this prayer. Yeah. I was like, "Okay, this is kinda weird, but-" Yeah. Yeah...
• 34:54
  but then it's like, afterwards it's like, man, this is- Right... all right. Like, this is the right path. Mm-hmm. Like, I've been, been dicking around for too l- let's, let's get busy living. Yeah. Yeah.
• 35:05
  I can remember that same feeling. It was almost like enthusiasm. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great way to describe it. Like, I was, I was full of enthusiasm. It was like, now what? Yeah. Now what do we do?
• 35:15
  Which is exactly the right thing. Right. That's exactly what we need- Yeah... because then we gotta get busy. Right. [laughs] Right. Right. Yeah. But, uh, yeah, I can, I can remember feeling that, too.
• 35:25
  "Next, we launched out on a course of vigorous action, the first step of which is a personal house cleaning." Wait, when? Next. So, like, in a week? Mm. Two weeks? From
• 35:40
  when I'm, when I'm doing it, it's immediate. [laughs] That's right. That's what next means. Yeah. It's literally like we're up off of our knees- Yeah... and here's your worksheet. I lo- Go ahead and start working...
• 35:51
  I love circling that word with guys. Like, "Hey, what does next mean?" Right. Right. We're, we're starting now. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. Uh, "So personal house cleaning, which many of us had never attempted.
• 36:04
  Though our decision was a vital and crucial step, it could have, it could have little permanent effect unless at once followed by a strenuous effort to face and to be rid of the things in ourselves which we had, which had been blocking us.
• 36:18
  Our liquor was but a symptom, so we had to get down to causes and conditions." [whistles] Dun, dun. So- So, like, I agree with that sentiment 100%. Mm-hmm. You've got to recognize
• 36:37
  you can't be blind to the snakes that are inside of you. Yeah. And booze blinds you to those snakes. You know?
• 36:47
  And until we're willing to look ourselves in the mirror and see ourselves for who we truly are, i.e., full of snakes, we have absolutely no idea of who we are as people. We just continue to wear this mask.
• 37:01
  "Everything's fine. Everything's fine." Mm-hmm. "Everything's great." You know, you go to church, "Oh, everything great. Everything's great." Yeah. You know? Horseshit, you're not great. You know? Yeah.
• 37:11
  Like, give me a break. None of us are great. Uh, but I think, like, it's easy for us to, to wear that mask of, of, uh,
• 37:21
  greatness, of being, like, this false version of ourselves if we're not willing to, like, look at the snakes in us. Mm-hmm. And that's the beauty of the fourth step to me, which, I mean, we'll get into next time.
• 37:33
  But, like, I can just remember once and for all when I took it seriously. Mm-hmm. Uh, what is that passage? "O wretched man that I am." Mm-hmm. That, that sort of verse from Paul.
• 37:47
  You know, it's just this acknowledgement of just like, "Ugh, I'm freaking disgusting." Yeah. "I suck." Yeah. [laughs] Like, "I am absolutely disgusting."
• 37:58
  Um, but I, yeah, I think until we're really ready to take an honest inventory of ourselves and really see ourselves for who we are, we'll never get better.
• 38:10
  So it really is just a decision, even though it's a vital one, this third step business. Mm-hmm. 'Cause that's, that's another tough pill to swallow. Mm-hmm. Like, we get to this point- Right...
• 38:20
  we feel energized, we feel like we're on the right path, but- Right... little old me really, really desires at the heart, at, like, my dark heart, for the problem to still just be taken away- Right...
• 38:34
  and for that prayer to be enough- Right... and for God to come in and cleanse me white as snow, and for everything to be- Yep... just fine. Yep.
• 38:42
  But no, He's gonna be our director, which means we're actors, agents, children, whatever you want, label you wanna do- Mm-hmm... that have to live- Right... and do the work. Right.
• 38:54
  So we're gonna get into the work next time. Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause that's, that's, that's when pen, pen hits the paper.
• 39:00
  Well, and I mean, I just, I, every night in my prayers I carry that idea of, like, fourth, fifth step into that, like, 10th step- Yeah...
• 39:10
  prayer sort of inventory at the end of the day, and the only reason I do that, which to me is just confession- Yeah... you know, I've got these headers- Mm-hmm... that I go through each night in my brain. Yeah.
• 39:23
  And I'm like, "Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God." So you literally run through the list. Yeah. Yeah. Like, every night. Um, but I would never have that tool had I not gone through the 12 steps. Yeah.
• 39:33
  I would, that would not be drilled into my brain to do. I would just continue to do this sort of blanket, like, "Forgive me for sinning." Mm-hmm. And not really look at the snakes. Mm-hmm.
• 39:43
  But just sort of, like, gloss it over, you know? But, but yeah, I mean, for real, thanks to the, the steps, I'm able to really identify those things and, like, yeah, ask God to help me with them. It works if you work it.
• 39:59
  Keep coming back. [laughs] Always a pleasure. A pleasure indeed. Until next time. Indeed. Hey, thanks for listening. You can find more info at progressandperfection.com, and we'll talk to you tomorrow.