Latest / Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson / Horses, Dementia, and the Science of Connection | Paula Hertel & Nancy Schier Anzelmo of Connected Horse, with Kansas Carradine | EAW 56

Transcript

Horses, Dementia, and the Science of Connection | Paula Hertel & Nancy Schier Anzelmo of Connected Horse, with Kansas Carradine | EAW 56 · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

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Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
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author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
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Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
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thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
0:15
I have a request.
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If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
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It really helps us get this work done.
0:24
As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
0:27
And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
0:31
equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
0:35
If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
0:40
com.
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So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
0:44
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
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A subject which is often left out when we're dealing with our field is
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seniors, aging, dementia, Alzheimer's strokes even just making life
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better for people who, as they age.
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And W- addressing the stigmas around it all.
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So much of what we do tends to be aimed at young people.
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Obviously I started with kids 'cause it was my son.
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And then from there I transitioned naturally into young adults
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'cause my son got older.
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And then of course I transitioned from there into working with first responders,
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and adult autists, and v- veterans, and because, you know, just went fromâ¦
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But these are all people to some degree in the prime of life.
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We really do have, in Western culture, a real lack of value placed on our elders,
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which is a bit nuts really because they're the people who've got all the knowledge.
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So just as someone sort of gets to the point where they've got all that
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stuff to help us out, we put them in a parking house with old people parking
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put on it, and I don't think that that is to the benefit of our society,
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and many other societies in the world do not do this because they know
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that that's a complete and s- almost irresponsible waste of human resources.
2:04
Okay.
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So I- I've got some people who are specialists in this field.
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We've got Paula Hertel, and we've got Nancy Shire Anselmo who are both with
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Connected Horse, but they both have a really solid background in this
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this field that we're talking about.
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So, Nancy is a gerontologist.
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W- those who don't know what a gerontologist is it makes you
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think it's someone who knows about people called Gerald.
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But no, â¦ it's, it's about the, the, the medicine of aging.
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She's a doctor.
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And this is a specialist form of med- of medicine, as we know.
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Nancy, you started as a social worker but you've v- been a consultant, senior
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living consultant for many, many years.
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You're both on the board for the California Association
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for Assisted Living.
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You, I know Nancy, you've been 30 years in the field as a gerontologist, and
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you've come together to create Connected Horse around this unrepresented field.
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And then Kansas, who I'm just a big fanboy of in general comes in with a lot of
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knowledge specifically about heart math and about how, gosh, the heart and the
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neurons around the heart affect the brain.
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And that this, of course, is as relevant to an aging population as it
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is to a younger population in terms of quality of life and outcomes.
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We're also so used to thinking of outcomes as something for the young,
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and then by the time you reach a certain age, well, then you'veâ¦
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you're outed and you've
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comed.
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Or you, you've gone and you came or whatever it is.
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But to, I- I didn't, that didn't come out very well, did it?
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But nonetheless we seem to sort of get consigned to the to
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the, to the irrelevance bucket.
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And this is, this is, this is again to the detriment of our society.
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So thank you guys very much for coming on.
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That was a long preamble, but I wanted people to really understand, you know, the
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value of, of, of why you're doing this.
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Would, would either one of you like to kick off with what is Connected Horse?
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You know, what services do you offer?
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How do you do it?
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What, what can we learn from this?
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Whichever one of you wants to jump in first
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Paula Hertel: I'll jump in.
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I think,
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Rupert Isaacson: Except for Kansas.
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Anyone- â¦ except for Kansas could â¦ Okay, yeah.
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Go on.
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Paula Hertel: We've learned so much for Kansas, from Kansas, just in terms
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of how you show up for each other, for horses for yourself and the world.
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So we'll, we'll give her,
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Rupert Isaacson: All right, Kansas
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â¦ Paula Hertel: her time.
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For Connected Horse, it really is this opportunity for people
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to be connected with horses.
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We've chose to work with older adults that are living with dementia or memory
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loss and their care partners together, and have been doing this work for
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over 10 years, started in research.
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And it's taken us as many years to try to explain what we do, and-
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Mm-hmm â¦ we still fall short, 'cause it is about the experience, showing up
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with our participants in, with horses in a beautiful place in nature and
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holding space for people to connect.
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And as we get through this, this podcast, we'll talk a little bit more around
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the details of it, but it is about holding space for people to connect with
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one another and connect with horses.
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Rupert Isaacson: Very good.
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Of course, I was being completely flippant when I said anyone but Kansas.
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Of course, Kansas, I
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wanted you-
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to
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dive in, so apologies for that.
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Kansas, you were gonna kick off there, so do tell.
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What were you going to say?
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I was,
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Kansas Carradine: I was really gonna say that m- I was excited to
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connect you with Connected Horse, because they have connected so many
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like a wider field of demographics in this equine-assisted world.
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You know, I jumped into it in 2008, and I was contacted around,
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I think around 2022 by one of the volunteers who work with Paula and
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Nancy in this incredible program.
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And I got it right away because ex- of exactly what you said, Rupert.
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We know about the benefits for veterans, for kids, for those with physical or
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mental disabilities autism trauma.
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We talk about all of this so much, but I had never heard anyone really be
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focusing with our seniors and our elders.
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And it got my attention, and right away I said, "I wanna do anything that
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I can do to help you make your, make your work known, make this organization
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known," and then I've been able to see it expand and, and also come to some of the
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workshops that Paula and Nancy facilitate.
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And the one thing that I really took away is the environment that you
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create, that failure-free environment for both the individual with the
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diagnosis as well as the caregivers.
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Paula and Nancy, it's just exceptional, because it's really the field environment
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that has so much real deep care- And compassion and really heart into, into
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it with the horses also facilitating.
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And it's magic.
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And I said, "This needs to be front page news because of the
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outcomes as well that we've seen."
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And I'll let Nancy explain some of those things that- Okay â¦ are
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just really important for, for the equine and human relationship
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Rupert Isaacson: So that's a good cue for you, Nancy.
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What, what are the outcomes?
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And- Well, we-
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also, why did you get into this?
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Nancy Schier Anzelmo: We got into this because Paula and I have worked
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with older adults and families for many years, and people are getting
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diagnosed earlier and earlier with neurocognitive disorder of some sort.
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And and then there's not a lot of resources besides, at that time in 2015
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when we started, you know, what was common to be heard was, "Well, get your affairs
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in order, and here are some drugs, and, you know, enjoy your life for a while,"
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because this diagnosis from eight to 20 years, so that's a very long time.
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And so we wanted to do something unique and special because b- both
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being equestrians and lifetime horse women and having horses heal in
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our own lives, we knew that there was something really special there.
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So we went to Stanford University, and we raised the money to do the research with
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one of the most foremost institutions in the country for neuroscience, and we
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partnered with the medical school and the athletic school with the e- the Red Barn
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Leadership Program which is the equestrian team actually trains there at Stanford.
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So there's amazing horses that are there, and we really wanted the science because
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we knew there was something there there, if you will, but we wanted to have the
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evidence-derived information behind it.
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So we did our pilot, and what Stanford affectionately called our Crazy Horse
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project, because no one had ever done this really with older adults, especially
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those with a d- diagnosis of dementia, and their family members together.
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It's important to us that they were together on this journey, just like you
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were with your son, Rupert, and your wife.
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Mm.
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It's, it's a family, it's a family journey that people are, are on
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together with their loved ones.
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And so we wanted them at the table, where at that time it would be like,
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"Well, you're the care partner.
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You go over here, and you're the person with the diagnosis.
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You go over here."
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So that was important to us that we, we did that together,
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and we wanted the science.
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So Stanford designed the, the studies with one of our board
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members who is a geriatrician.
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I'm actually a social scientist not a physician, and we were looking for
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more of a holistic approach for people that were newly diagnosed to give
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them tools to take on this journey.
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And then we went to UC Davis, which is the foremost veterinary school in the country,
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number one in the United States, and we partnered with their Alzheimer's Disease
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Research Center, as well as the School of Veterinary Medicine, to look at the
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same science in a different environment and to see what the results were.
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And we- We're blown away because we real- it's real exciting to see it
10:06
on the pre and post test, and we had all these volunteers come
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in, and we advertised in the newspaper just like, "You guys
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wanna be part of a cool new study?"
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You know, and people are, "Oh yeah, I'm either I'm terrified
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of horses or I'm really excited to have horses back in my life."
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And we were able to, to do this research for over three years to have the science
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so we could start Connected Horse.
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And Paula, I'm sure I'm leaving something out.
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Go ahead.
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Yeah.
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Paula Hertel: Yeah, I think the, the research was important 'cause it helped
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us to sort of build a program that had some structure behind it and the,
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the why behind it so that when we went out to share this with others, we,
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we had that foundational knowledge.
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And what it's allowed us to do is to then build confidence and, and flexibility
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knowing that the program that we put together that really was designed the
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original design was for the business school at Stanford, and we modified some
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of the pace of the program to fit ours.
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But it's this reminder we're all human beings showing up in this world together,
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that we don't make huge changes because someone is growing older or somebody
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has dementia or somebody has some medical diagnosis that you may modify
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slightly in terms of how fast you walk or, or, or how long your day is.
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But the connection to each other and the connection to horses is the same,
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whether you're a CEO of some Silicon Valley company or an 85-year-old woman who
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is caring for someone who has dementia.
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So is w- we were modeling that we are all human beings showing
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up in, in this world together.
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What came out of it in terms of the measures is that care partners told
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us that they had reduced feelings of, of depression, of burden that they
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felt more supported in the world and that they had the confidence, which
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we sometimes call hope, to continue to live life, stay engaged in life despite
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having this big change in what they thought their life was gonna be was
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caring for somebody with, with dementia and that they were sleeping better.
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And Nancy talks a lo- a lot about it, 'cause we're, we're
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working on our sleep too.
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But that, you know, 11 years ago not everybody knew how important sleep
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was, and I think particularly women we- women were like, "Let's go, let's go.
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We'veâ¦
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we can go on five hours of sleep and it's good.
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We just drink more coffee."
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And I think nowadays we know how destructive that is to our own
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bodies, but back then it was, it was just starting in terms of how
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important sleep is to wellbeing.
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And so there's a lot of reasons for these, these outcomes, and we continue
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to look at what are the core benefits to the work that we're doing now that we're
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out of research and into community-based programs, which has gotten us excited
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about going back into research.
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And Kansas has been really helpful to introduce us to people that have some
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now technologies that can help us show what's really happening physiologically.
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And Rupert, we had some earlier conversations about that too.
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What is happening physiologically to individuals when we're doing these
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workshops, and how can we understand that better so that people have their
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own agency, their own control of how they wanna live their life and
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how they wanna continue to not only look at lifespan, but this wellness.
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How do I feel good in the world?
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How do I feel hopeful and, and energized by where I'm at in, in my
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life regardless of medical stuff?
14:17
Two
14:17
Rupert Isaacson: questions.
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Two questions come up for me immediately.
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First question is what actually did you study in theseâ¦
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So y- you mentioned two studies, one at Stanford, one at Davis.
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What did you study sort of in a nutshell?
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And then B, you've talked about outcomes.
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What are the outcomes?
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And you also- actually, it's three questions, and
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you've talked about workshops
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Yeah
14:37
What, what happens in those workshops?
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So let's start with the studies, then let's go to the outcomes,
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let's go to the workshops.
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Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Stanford designed the study to look at the regular-
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the measures that we use with older adults, and that would be looking at
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ex- anxiety and depression with these scales, and social support, meaning how
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the care partner feels more supported on their journey of this new diagnosis.
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Rupert Isaacson: And s- So you were mostly studying the care partner rather than- So-
15:05
the person with the condition, or both?
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We did
15:07
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: both.
15:07
Okay.
15:07
We did pre and post-tests on both the person with the diagnosis, with, And
15:13
those folks were pretty much diagnosed within two to three years of a, a time
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window, as- and they had to have, meet certain measures to be able to be in
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the study based on Stanford's design.
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So we looked at depression and anxiety, and as Paula mentioned, this sense
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of burden in, as a care partner, as well as the person with dementia.
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They had the exact same measures of five measures, and three out of
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five measures had a P value of .001,
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which is the to- highest you can get in research.
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What's a P
15:44
Rupert Isaacson: value?
15:45
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: It's the value of the change from in a 15-hour
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intervention in three consecutive weeks, they came back to the barn to have
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a two and a half hour, well, at that time actually it was almost five-hour
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intervention 'cause we had lunch in there.
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But basically they had this intervention in 15 hours, and they measured the di- the
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difference in these pre and post-tests.
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We did the sa- then it's, well, wow, that's amazing.
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Let's do it in a different environment with different
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horses and see if that works.
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So then we went over to UC Davis and did the identical study, had similar
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results, and then the researcher said, "Well, that's great, but does it last?"
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So we had a booster session six months later with all the
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people at UC Davis that had come.
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Our, our N, our amount of people were 88 people.
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There were some that were thrown out because they missed one
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box on a checkbox or something.
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And so the, in the, we're really proud to say in the booster session, even if
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someone had a stroke or any change of condition, we had 100% participation
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that came back six months later.
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So we knew we were onto something, and we wanted to go straight into workshops to
17:00
be able to support people on this journey now because the numbers are s- astounding
17:05
in the United States and across the world.
17:07
And so we said, "Well, we can study it, but we have enough to
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get going to say there's something there there," as I mentioned.
17:15
Mm.
17:15
And take it out.
17:17
And so we've done our, our poster sessions and research at, at different
17:21
international conferences with the Alzheimer's Association, and we just
17:25
finished doing one at Alzheimer's Disease International in France with all of the
17:31
results that we just had just in April.
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So we continually are measuring outcomes to see how people have changed and
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as Paula says, are activated and have some sense of hope on this journey
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that they can change their lives.
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And as you see from 10 years ago, all the research now is on
17:49
lifestyle and maintaining lifestyle.
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I just read an article this morning I sent to Paula, a study out of London
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that came out and said 80% of all old age can be changed by lifestyle.
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And so we wanted to focus on that, not to give false hope that you won't get
18:06
dementia, because it's one-third genetics and two-thirds lifestyle focused, but that
18:12
you can do things upon the diagnosis like any disease to change the outcomes and
18:17
have a better lifespan and longevity so it's, it's, it maintains like this instead
18:24
of going down in the next eight to 20 years from depression, anxiety, et cetera.
18:29
Right.
18:29
So this is kind of a booster to get you started.
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Rupert Isaacson: What did you do during those studies with the people, and is
18:36
that now what you do in the workshops?
18:40
Paula Hertel: So, so in the research we did 15 hours, as Nancy said, three
18:46
sessions, five hours- But of what?
18:48
Rupert Isaacson: What did the people do in those sessions?
18:49
Yeah.
18:50
Okay.
18:50
Paula Hertel: So they cameâ¦
18:51
The, the participants came together, so there'sâ¦
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We start, we do a lot of group work, mindfulness work, movement- Let me,
19:01
Rupert Isaacson: let me put it more- Okay â¦ bluntly for, for s- for a horse person.
19:04
Did you have them roping steers?
19:06
Did you have them jumping- No â¦ fences?
19:07
All from the ground.
19:07
Did you have them grooming horses?
19:09
No.
19:09
Did you have them going- All from the ground â¦ swimming
19:11
in the ocean with their horses?
19:12
What did they
19:13
Paula Hertel: do?
19:13
That all sounds fabulous.
19:16
But no, all from the ground.
19:18
And so in these- But what
19:20
Rupert Isaacson: from the ground?
19:20
What did they do?
19:21
Paula Hertel: Yeah.
19:22
So we started slowly.
19:24
You would observe a horse individually.
19:26
You'd observe a horse in a herd.
19:29
Youâ¦
19:30
Which would sort of quiet the mind, quiet the nervous system.
19:35
You would choose a horse to hang out with over the fence.
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That was, you know, activity, exercise number one.
19:43
Then we would move through the day, through the workshops, grooming a horse,
19:48
leading a horse haltering a horse- And we added bathing when it's on a hot day.
19:56
It's a beautiful exercise to do.
19:59
And then we close our sessions with an at liberty, so in a round pen letting a
20:05
horse go with no halter, no lead rope.
20:09
And individuals come in and have a gratitude time wi- with a horse
20:15
with, without any structure.
20:17
So-
20:18
Rupert Isaacson: What do they do in that gratitude time in general?
20:20
Paula Hertel: It's I mean, it's an individual time for them.
20:23
It's very quiet, very slow.
20:26
Rupert Isaacson: It's- What did it look like though in general?
20:27
There must have been some patterns.
20:29
Paula Hertel: Yeah, I mean, it's different.
20:30
Rupert Isaacson: What do people tend to do?
20:31
Paula Hertel: I mean, here's what's, here's what's really beautiful and can
20:34
be hard for people to say how do, how do we do it and what are they learning.
20:38
Mm-hmm.
20:39
Our goal as facilitators is about holding neutral space for people to
20:43
get the experience that they want.
20:46
So the structure is around safety and, and neutrality, not about
20:54
teaching someone to do- I do
20:55
Rupert Isaacson: understand.
20:56
No, no, that's not the question I'm asking.
20:57
Yeah.
20:57
So- What did you observe, this is the journalist in me.
20:57
Okay.
20:57
What did you observe in general when people went in
20:57
to the round pen with a horse?
20:57
And I know you're going to
21:09
say, "Well, it was, it's all very individual and da, da, da."
21:11
Yes.
21:11
Yeah, sure.
21:12
But at the same time, there's always patterns that emerge.
21:15
There always are.
21:16
Paula Hertel: Yeah.
21:16
What did you notice?
21:17
The pattern, the pattern, I would say, yes, every, every
21:23
interaction is different.
21:25
The pattern is a relaxed state, so, you know, people shoulders are down.
21:32
People are calm.
21:33
The horse and the participants are interacting.
21:38
So it isn't a forced or a hurry.
21:41
That's
21:41
Rupert Isaacson: my question.
21:41
Okay, that gets it.
21:42
How did they tend to interact?
21:45
Paula Hertel: I mean, I think it would be similar to what horse people
21:48
would say join up, that the horse, most often the, the person who comes,
21:55
we always have people take a deep breath, get in touch with their own
21:59
body in the middle of the round pen.
22:02
They relax.
22:04
They get open.
22:06
And most often the horse then joins with them in the middle of the round pen.
22:12
The, you
22:12
Rupert Isaacson: observed the horse would tend to come to them.
22:14
Paula Hertel: Mm-hmm.
22:14
Mm-hmm.
22:15
Rupert Isaacson: And when the horse came to them, what was in
22:18
general the reaction of the human?
22:20
Would they reach out?
22:22
Would they-
22:23
Paula Hertel: Usually it's a pat on the neck and a, and a s- Mm.
22:27
Sometimes it's a smile.
22:28
Sometimes it's a tear.
22:30
There's an emotion.
22:31
There's an emotion that emerges.
22:33
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
22:34
Paula Hertel: People and there's a tactile touch.
22:38
Rupert Isaacson: And would the touch move, would it start sort of at that-
22:45
Distance, sort of y- your arm-ish.
22:49
And then would they then go into the horse more and hug the neck,
22:54
say, or something like that?
22:55
Or would people tend to maintain their distances?
22:59
Would the horses tend to maintain their distances, or would
23:02
the horses tend to move in?
23:05
Paula Hertel: I mean, at this point they've been together for three weeks.
23:09
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
23:09
Paula Hertel: So I would say not a lot of distance.
23:13
Certainly starting at the beginning, there's distance, there's apprehension.
23:18
By the close of three, three â¦ Once a week, but three consecutive weeks, the
23:24
confidence of getting up close with the horse, the desire to connect is closer.
23:32
Not always a hug.
23:33
Was there
23:33
Rupert Isaacson: body to body connection?
23:34
Yeah.
23:35
Paula Hertel: There â¦ Yes.
23:36
There's body to body.
23:38
Almost always- And in the body to
23:39
Rupert Isaacson: body connect-
23:40
AM.
23:40
Right.
23:40
What, what were the patterns that you saw?
23:42
For example, in Horse Boy method, when the, the first thing that most kids
23:47
will do, particularly young autists, is when you put them with a horse, if
23:51
they want to get up, what they want to do is they want to lie on the horse.
23:54
They want to use the horse like a- Yeah
23:56
big old couch, and they'll- Mm â¦ go body to body.
24:00
Sometimes they'll go forward and hug the neck.
24:02
Sometimes they'll lie back, you know, with their head on the quarters.
24:05
But the most the, the most effective and the one that we see that e- seems
24:09
to bring the most immediate joy that they all end up doing is they turn
24:13
around and they hug the butt, and they put their head on the horse's butt
24:18
like that, and they hug around there.
24:20
And they enter a kind of a deep meditative-
24:24
phase
24:24
at this point, state at this point.
24:26
And we've just observed this time and time and time again.
24:29
Of course, it started with my, my, my son, and then we beganâ¦
24:32
That's actually what got me into heart math, was thinking,
24:34
"Wow, what's going on here?"
24:35
And it was only when people started talking about heart math,
24:37
I thought, "Oh, maybe it's that."
24:39
So that's why I'm intrigued by- Yeah â¦ is there body to body contact?
24:42
And if so- â¦ what's the pattern?
24:44
How does it tend to go?
24:45
Paula Hertel: For us, I think it's more around the neck and the head.
24:50
Okay.
24:50
Our participants also are very drawn to horse's eyes, and they're drawn
24:56
to the f- the, the sensory feeling of the horse's breath on their hand.
25:02
Mm-hmm.
25:03
So, you know, I'm scanning my brain for the hundreds of people
25:06
that have participated in our workshops, and the, the, the hands
25:12
are, are very much a part of it.
25:15
And so the, theâ¦
25:17
I saw Kansas in the corner of my eye doing this.
25:20
Yeah.
25:20
There is this movement aroundâ¦
25:24
We had a painter who, I mean, it was just beautiful around the neck and
25:28
around feeling the, the breath of the, through the horse's nostrils.
25:33
And then there's the leaning in of the head.
25:37
Sometimes head to head, horse's head to human's head, but, but most
25:42
often I would say, and Nancy pop in here- Mm-hmm â¦ to the neck.
25:45
And so there's a leaning in to a horse's neck.
25:50
And I have a beautiful story to tell when you're ready for, for a story.
25:54
This is, this is what we came
25:55
Rupert Isaacson: to see with the- And the neck and the hug â¦ at the hug.
25:56
Right.
25:56
Like a horse hug.
25:56
Yeah, a horse hug.
25:56
And, and that's heart to
25:56
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: heart, right?
25:57
Yes.
25:57
Heart to
26:00
heart.
26:00
They're, they're drawn to that.
26:01
And I know
26:02
Rupert Isaacson: that poor old Kansas's battery's about to die, and I was just
26:06
about to say, "Okay, Kansas, what's going on with this heart to heart stuff?"
26:10
Before your battery dies, can you- Mm â¦ and if you cut out in the
26:14
middle, you cut out in the middle.
26:15
But what's going on on a heart math perspective with
26:17
this heart to heart stuff?
26:20
Kansas Carradine: Well, you know, there's a lot of inference, I think,
26:22
with just observing that we see that there's a connection that takes place.
26:25
And we talk about how the heart itself is an electromagnetic
26:28
organ, so it has a big broadcast.
26:31
It's much more measurable than, say, from our brain.
26:33
From our brain we can measure about one inch the skull, but the heart's
26:36
field is about as, like, wide as your wingspan with your arms extended out,
26:40
and so the horse's is that much stronger.
26:42
There has been another bit of research that actually you Paula,
26:45
I think Paula and Nancy sent along, that talks about the Earth's
26:48
resonance, which is also very strong.
26:50
But I would really gather that what we're seeing is when we're in
26:52
close proximity, that there's this state of really an environmentâ¦
26:57
a, a vibrational frequency of ease and calm that the horses broadcast.
27:01
And mind you, we're working with horses in an equine-assisted
27:04
setting that are regulated horses.
27:07
They are not horses that are in fight or flight mode.
27:09
They are not horses that are in extreme trauma who are afraid
27:13
and not wanting to connect.
27:14
So they broadcast this grounded sense of real tangible calm.
27:21
And now our emotions, it's a measurable state, so the frequency that's emitted
27:25
from a being that is feeling very, very safe and secure and willing to
27:30
really support another being, such as I can just stand here and you can
27:33
lean on me, and that sense of not just close proximity, but of connection
27:39
really to the natural world as well.
27:41
There's a resonance that puts us in phase with each other, and that phase we talk
27:46
about is really coming into coherence, where there's a synchronization of many
27:51
different organs, actions, and functions that happen within our physiology.
27:55
And that coherent state, basically I say it's like synchronized rhythm And
28:00
when things are rhythm, not dissimilar to when your horses are move, working
28:03
in collection and you have, you know, someone in the saddle and you're doing
28:06
the back riding, the rhythm and timing start to kind of switch things into a
28:11
little bit more, we could say, bringing some sense, bringing that sense of
28:15
clarity, bringing a sense of more what is predictable instead of this
28:20
high overstimulated nervous system.
28:23
That's what I believe is what we're seeing.
28:25
And then when we measure also even a deeper level, the horses emit something
28:29
called VLF, which is very low frequency.
28:32
I imagine some, like, elephants might do this as well- Mm â¦ but
28:35
we haven't yet measured them.
28:36
And I believe that there's a lot of things that we just don't have
28:39
quite the instrumentation detailed enough yet to really see some of
28:43
the other things that are going on.
28:44
But everything is vibrational.
28:45
Everything is energy.
28:46
So in coming so close to a being that's very connected to Earth, feeling very
28:50
safe and secure, and obviously that horse has been supported by its whole
28:55
education, you know, team and facility.
28:57
So the failure-free environment that you talk about, you know,
29:00
Paula and Nancy, it's the field.
29:02
It's a collective field, and it's nature-based, just like you
29:05
said, Rupert, with your programs.
29:07
So you're outside.
29:08
You're feeling the wind.
29:09
You know, we might be doing herd observation.
29:12
You can hear the birds, and all of a sudden people's nervous
29:15
systems start to unwind.
29:17
And the one of the things that I was so excited to bring this connection together
29:22
is because part of your body of work, Rupert, is, and people certainly listening
29:26
on this pod- podcast, is seeing those who are non-verbal start to step into
29:31
a little bit more social engagement.
29:32
Mm-hmm.
29:33
And so perhaps Paula and Nancy, you can share some of the observations that you've
29:36
had when those individuals who seem to have been non-verbal, who seem to have
29:40
been checked out, who don't know where they're going, like mum's not with it, and
29:45
I know one of the stories you've told me is, "Oh, actually, she was able to give
29:48
the directions to get to the barn-" Yes
29:50
when someone was- Yes â¦ lost on their way.
29:52
So maybe you can share- Absolutely â¦ some of those stories.
29:56
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Yeah, so when you have someone with this devastating
29:58
diagnosis, Rupert, the whole family's affected because they've seen all these
30:02
horrible things, you know, and they have this vision and this stigma around this.
30:08
And but yet they're still people and they're very capable of doing things, but
30:13
what happens is they start to shut down 'cause they might say the wrong word or
30:17
a word that sounds like a different word.
30:19
And, you know, people look at them like, "What are you saying?"
30:22
Or especially a loved one will be like, "What are you trying to say?"
30:25
I mean, the, you know, the patients are about this long.
30:28
When you've lived with someone who's been cognitively intact
30:31
for so long, and now they're not.
30:33
Yeah.
30:33
And so there's, there's a lot of inwardness with the person living
30:38
with dementia, so they may not speak, or they're afraid to say something,
30:42
and their confidence is gone.
30:45
And so when they get around this, this magnificent animal in these three-week
30:49
time, they're usually a, a bit fearful and a lit- little standoffish compared
30:53
to a child, how it, you know, I was all over my pony as a little girl, and
30:57
I couldn't, you know, I had no fear.
31:00
There's a lot of fear, and so we work on that every week, and what Paula so
31:05
beautifully calls, you know, the grooming experience, where they're moving their
31:08
hands like this, is the giving and receiving care that perhaps today that
31:13
horse isn't gonna pick up its hoof.
31:14
We're not gonna teach them how to do it.
31:17
We're not teaching horsemanship whatsoever.
31:19
And then the horse may pick up the hoof for the person usually with the diagnosis
31:25
we see over the care partner who's very anxious about them performing at the right
31:30
level, or, "You can do that, Dad," or, "Come on, honey, you know what to do."
31:34
And so there's a lot of that going on every week, and then you see these
31:38
roles just disappear, and they become a pair again, no matter what it is,
31:45
mother-daughter, sister-brother.
31:47
We've seen, you know, care partners and friends and spouses and grandchildren and
31:52
everyone else come through these groups.
31:54
And so this stigma of living with dementia, 'cause they're
32:00
living with it now, right?
32:01
Just like cancer or anything else.
32:04
Starts to go away and they see them as whole again.
32:08
And that's a very important transformation for the care partner.
32:11
And then the person who thinks, "I'm still the same person, maybe I can't get my
32:15
words out as right," you know, has more confidence to be able to be themselves
32:20
again instead of this shell because this diagnosis, which I call the scarlet letter
32:26
of D, of dementia, is on them, right?
32:30
And so we're label- we're so quick as sighted to label people, but
32:33
we're showing them they're still there, they're the same person, and
32:37
the horse helps bring that together.
32:39
And so that's where we see this release over and over again, and the
32:45
horse is there as our, our â¦ They're not a tool, they're our teacher
32:50
basically, and they are part of this, this amazing transformation where
32:55
people start talking again in full sentences where we've seen this.
32:59
We've seen, what's my favorite thing, is they come in with a cane
33:02
and feeling disabled and then they say, "Here, take the cane, honey.
33:07
I'm gonna walk this horse," and they start walking just fine.
33:10
We've seen this so many times we can't even number it.
33:14
Because they have this disabled kind of thought when they first come, and
33:20
then they have an enabled, activated experience by the time they leave
33:27
Rupert Isaacson: This is really interesting, obviously
33:29
for a million reasons.
33:30
But yeah, because what was coming up in my mind was when you were saying, well, the
33:34
person with dementia is thinking, "Well, I'm still the same person I always was."
33:37
And I'm thinking about certain people I've known who were in
33:40
more advanced stages of dementia.
33:42
I'm not sure that that's what they were thinking at that stage.
33:46
I think that perhaps- No â¦ what they were showing was that they thought
33:49
they were some- a younger version of themselves or other versions of
33:53
themselves, but not perhaps the particular version of themselves aged 90 sitting
33:58
in this chair in a rubber- Right.
34:01
None of us do.
34:02
We don't feel our age.
34:02
Right.
34:02
But the, the, the-
34:07
H- h- how advanced in the symptoms
34:11
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: i- Oh, that's an excellent question
34:13
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
34:13
If you tend to work with people- we, we work with
34:15
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: people newly diagnosed because we really wanted
34:18
to activate at a just like if someone tells you you're gonna be, you're
34:22
pre-diabetic, "Oh, I'm gonna go on a diet and I'm gonna exercise, I'm
34:26
gonna do all these other things."
34:27
We were looking at that first- Yeah â¦ to help them change their mindset for
34:32
the course that's ahead of them.
34:34
Okay.
34:35
So they're not v- very advanced.
34:37
They're still walking, they're ambulatory, but they're all different ages.
34:41
Our younger, youngest person was 57, and our oldest person was 92.
34:46
So we have a huge span of people that we're, we're working with, and
34:52
it's not really based on debility.
34:54
They're much f- earlier in the stage.
34:56
And especially in research, we had to test their cognitive
35:00
ability to even be in the study.
35:01
Mm-hmm.
35:02
Since we're in program now, we do assist people that are, might be in
35:05
the, what we would call mid stages.
35:07
Okay.
35:07
But the, the anomaly of that is there's no actual scale like that.
35:12
It's how they feel that day, how much sleep they got.
35:16
Mm-hmm.
35:16
Did they have breakfast?
35:17
How people will show up that day is much different based on, on the individual
35:22
and some of their lifestyle patterns.
35:25
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
35:25
If you did have somebody who had fairly advanced symptoms, and the reason I'm
35:29
asking this is w- I think we talked about this in a previous conversation we had.
35:34
I had an interesting experience with my wife's grandmother- Mm-hmm â¦ who
35:38
was in a pretty advanced stage, and she was put in old people parking,
35:41
and we went, would go in to see her and eat, have cake and coffee, but
35:45
she had no idea who we were and so on.
35:47
And then we brought our young kids, who were toddler age at that point,
35:54
toddler and just post-toddler, and she just went into a different mode.
35:57
And she said, "Oh, let's get a Chinese checkers board.
36:00
Do the kids know how to play Chinese checkers?"
36:01
She didn't know that these were her great-grandchildren.
36:03
She didn't know.
36:04
But these were kids, and they needed to learn how to play Chinese
36:06
checkers, and did they want cake?
36:08
And, and we watched the interaction between her and her great-grandchildren.
36:13
It made no difference at all to either of them that, the kids didn't
36:18
have a kind of self-concept of, "Well, unless she knows that we're
36:21
her great-grandkids, this somehow is a lesser hierarchy of interaction."
36:25
And, you know, they, they weren't- Right â¦ coming from that space.
36:27
She was like, "Here are children in front of me.
36:29
I know what to do with young children.
36:30
I like young children."
36:32
And she just began to teach them skills.
36:34
And we hadn't seen this person before.
36:38
Paula Hertel: Yes.
36:38
Rupert Isaacson: And this person emerged, was for about an hour to an hour and
36:45
a half, completely present with them, not so much with us, and then at a
36:51
certain point, got tired and retreated.
36:53
And we did this, ooh, four times, I think.
36:58
And, it was astonishing, and it made one realize, oh, gosh, I see in back on the
37:05
old days on a family farm or something like that, if you had grandpa or grandma
37:10
sitting quietly in a corner, and they would just come out of their shells for
37:15
an hour or two a day to teach the kids how to knit or teach the kids how to
37:20
work the loom or teach the kids how to do this craft or this skill, and then that
37:26
they were a fully functioning participant in that family economy, both socially
37:33
and economically, and their diagnosis wasn't really preventing them from that.
37:41
Now we, of course, have a very different picture.
37:42
So one of the reasons I was asking about the if you have people with the sort of
37:46
later symptoms coming in, if so, do you notice similar things to what I justâ¦
37:53
the, the, the story I just recounted?
37:55
Or, yeah, is thereâ¦
37:56
Can you speak to us on this?
37:58
Because I'm sure there's people listening and watching who have loved ones who
38:02
are in that stage and are thinking, "Hmm, I wonder if I was to bring
38:06
them into a nature-based environment.
38:08
Ooh, I wonder if I was to bring them to the barn.
38:10
Hmm, whatâ¦"
38:10
You know.
38:11
So what are your thoughts?
38:14
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Well, we ha- go a- Paula's seen people with laterâ¦
38:17
We've, we've been testing people with later stages beyond research
38:20
because we know we can help.
38:22
So Paula, I mean, we've modified the program for those individuals.
38:27
Paula Hertel: I think part of it, couple things come up to mind
38:31
when you were sharing that story.
38:32
One is that loneliness and isolation is a killer.
38:37
And so part of what happens both societal and individually is that
38:44
when you feel like you no longer fit or can participate, you withdraw.
38:51
And so some of the, some of what you're seeing is, is may have
38:58
nothing to do with, with dementia.
39:01
It may have to do with boredom, with no sense of purpose, with feeling
39:05
isolated and not part of, of community.
39:09
And so I think we do have to be careful that every sort of what
39:13
we label as a deficit or a change may have ve- very little to do
39:18
with, with some disease process.
39:20
So that's one thing- Good point
39:22
that comes to mind.
39:23
Yeah.
39:24
The other that comes to mind is that, that our society is so
39:30
reliant on, on verbal communication.
39:35
And one of the beautiful things i- is that horses are non-verbal communicators.
39:42
They're very good at that.
39:44
And so, what we often see is that when we allow this, what Kansas was sharing
39:54
and, and we sometimes take for granted, is this failure-free environment.
39:59
Doesn't matter what you say, it doesn't matter how many times you say things, it
40:03
doesn't matter if you put the halter on all wonky, it doesn't matter, How you show
40:11
up, you are welcome in this environment.
40:15
And what we found is that that neutral, encouraging, accepting
40:20
space allows people to just be.
40:25
We talk about being with instead of doing to.
40:28
It, it allows, we think, and this is where Kansas is helping us show it,
40:32
we think that sort of nervous system busy, worried mind and nervous system
40:39
calms, and pe- people get out of the fight, flight, freeze response.
40:44
Mm-hmm.
40:44
And with that, we see people that were aphasic, that couldn't
40:48
talk, start to share stories.
40:51
We see people that had mobility issues because they're out moving, and we are
40:59
supporting that with with slowing down the pace that they are actually moving
41:05
more, that their confidence is going.
41:07
So they show up in the world differently.
41:10
And we know that emotional memory stays with the essence of who we are.
41:19
And so we've seen years later, we give people at the end of a workshop,
41:24
we give them either a book of their experience or a c- a photo collage,
41:30
that years later they may not remember the name of our program or the name of
41:34
the horses, but the emotional response when they're sharing that book or that
41:38
photo is still within that person.
41:41
And so sometimes I think we, we, the sort of collective human without the disease
41:48
of dementia, think that, that somebody has lost everything, and it could be
41:53
that they've lost their verbal ability to tell us, but what they're experience
41:59
e- experiencing is still within them.
42:01
And so it's up to us to look for those cues in different ways,
42:06
and we see that over and over and over again in our program.
42:11
Rupert Isaacson: Is there a misunderstood or only now becoming
42:15
understood trauma in, or traumatic response to people feeling that
42:24
Be- yeah, th-th-they now need to withdraw because they can't trust
42:28
what comes out of their mouths.
42:29
They can't they're worried they're gonna, you know, all the things.
42:33
And so therefore a lot, is, is, is it true, do you think it's quite true
42:38
that quite a lot of what we see in an apparently not really there person
42:43
anymore is in fact someone who's just withdrawn massively, and that
42:49
in the right circumstances, I mean, w- obviously we talked about that
42:53
experience with the kids, but perhaps in something more structured that
42:57
they could actually come forth again?
43:00
A-
43:00
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Well, there is still a degenerative process of the brain.
43:03
Okay.
43:04
So the brain is act- actually atrophying and dying.
43:07
Mm-hmm.
43:07
So everyone is different, and some people's verbal skills might be
43:11
more affected, some vision in the back of the brain is affected motor
43:16
skills and sequencing, all of that is part of the disease process.
43:21
Mm.
43:21
But we do agree that there is some trauma once you get a, a devastating diagnosis.
43:27
Mm.
43:27
People go straight into depression and get- Mm â¦ an antidepressant.
43:30
Like, that's kind of what happens.
43:33
And so this, this coming out and being with those you love and trust
43:37
the most in your life- Mm â¦ is a very healing experience n- no
43:41
matter what the diagnosis is- Sure
43:44
because they have these years ahead of them.
43:46
And so emotional memory is intact, as Paul is mentioning, and the family just
43:51
thinks, "Oh, yeah, they don't remember," but maybe it's just a little bit slower.
43:55
It's a slower response.
43:56
So our pace is so important, and the horse's pace, and giving the time for
44:01
the neurons to fire in the brain, for someone to speak or react or what have
44:05
you, but our world is so fast and we're asking them so many questions, that
44:10
they need to process a much slower pace.
44:14
And when we slow down like that, you can actually have a
44:17
full conversation with someone.
44:19
And the horse- It's so f- â¦ helps them be present, right?
44:21
Rupert Isaacson: It's so funny.
44:22
You, you could be parenting, parroting me when I'm talking about- â¦ you
44:26
know, non-verbal or not very verbal autistic kids, just saying, "Slow down."
44:31
But one of the interesting things with that is there's an i- when people are
44:36
very young, and particularly when they're kids, there's a kind of an optimism
44:39
that okay, we'll amend what we're doing even though we find it torturous or- Yes
44:46
you know, very difficult to slow down in that way to give them the
44:49
timed response because we're kind of investing in their future.
44:52
And I think that's a, e- even if that's not a conscious thought, it's a, it's a
44:55
thought that a lot of people are having.
44:56
I think when people are dealing with people heading towards end of life,
45:00
there's often a feeling of, "Well, we're not, there's nothing to invest in
45:04
here, so why would we take that time?
45:08
Why would we slow down?"
45:10
It's- And also they
45:10
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: were functioning at the highest level before, so
45:13
you, you expect them to still be that way, and that's the- Yeah
45:16
â¦ frustration of the care partner.
45:19
Well, Mom, you knew how to get here before, you know,
45:21
why can't you drive there?
45:22
You know, that, that's the, the opposite side of the spectrum that we're seeing
45:26
than what you work with because you've seen someone, a highly, you know,
45:30
they were a scientist at wherever.
45:32
You know, so you see this high, high level of cognitive reserve that is now
45:37
decreasing, and that is where there's a lot of frustration with the care-
45:43
the family, because they're used to them for 50, 60, 70 years at a certain
45:48
level, and now they've slowed down.
45:50
So then that's where the infantilizing starts to come in- Oh, yeah
45:54
where they basically start treating them more like a child because they
45:59
weren't that way before, right?
46:01
And so then they, the family dynamics, it depends, every, every
46:07
i- person is an individual, so we do not like to stereotype all
46:10
people because everyone's different.
46:13
It's based on culture, and family values, and what that, you
46:17
know, family looks at education.
46:19
This person's highly educated.
46:20
Why are they acting this way, right?
46:22
So there's a lot of isms, if you will, that are swirling
46:26
around with this diagnosis.
46:27
So when they come in, we just want them to be a, a pair again, whatever that
46:32
pair is, and leave all those other things behind, and that's the magic of what we
46:38
see because emotional memory is there.
46:42
Rupert Isaacson: When you talk about culture, that's interesting to me.
46:45
Do you see cultures where there's a more prevalent sh- prevalence of dementia?
46:50
Do you see cultures where there's less?
46:53
And do you see cultures where there seem to be better outcomes?
46:58
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Well, that's a s- that's an answer for the Alzheimer's
47:01
Disease International, but unfortunately dementia hits every culture,
47:05
every person, every sex, everyone.
47:08
So it depends on their cognitive reserve in your field- Sure, sure, sure,
47:12
Rupert Isaacson: butâ¦
47:13
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: But it depends on how people, elders are
47:16
treated in the culture, absolutely.
47:19
That's, I know what you're asking.
47:20
And if they revere their elders and cultures, then they have purpose, and what
47:26
you were talking about, the grandmother, she jumped right into her purpose
47:30
with children, wants to teach them.
47:32
That's never gone.
47:34
That is the emotional memory that comes out and starts to
47:37
take over because it's there.
47:39
It's never gone.
47:41
You just have to bring it out.
47:43
Rupert Isaacson: But in your work so for example, whenâ¦
47:45
in my work I often notice in America better outcomes for
47:49
Hispanic families with autism.
47:52
Why?
47:53
There's often a very, very strong family dynamic.
47:55
There's often a very good intact extended family, so there's often
48:00
support for the mum and the dad who are going through it, so you tend to get a
48:05
little bit less exhaustion and burnout.
48:07
There's often more siblings, so there's a certain amount of, you
48:12
know, kids bring each other up.
48:14
Mm-hmm.
48:14
And the it takes a village thing, that is more intact currently in Hispanic culture
48:20
in the USA than it is in Anglo culture.
48:23
It just is.
48:23
Back in the day when people lived out on family farms more and so on
48:27
in the Anglo culture, that was more intact, but that's largely gone.
48:30
In African American families we see almost like a half-and-half mix that there there
48:35
are some areas, particularly in rural areas, where we see exactly those same
48:39
outcomes that are very, very strong with the extended families and so on, and
48:43
then in certain urban areas we might not.
48:45
So that's more to do with different types of societal pressure.
48:49
It's not to do with eth- ethnicity.
48:51
But it, it, w- that's why I said culture.
48:56
So even within cul- Black cultural, Anglo cultural, Hispanic culture, there
48:59
are different subcultures and some might have a, a better outcome than others.
49:03
But in our jobs it's important that we notice these things because we,
49:07
we need to notice what works and then try to orient people towards that.
49:12
So do you notice cultures where it works better?
49:16
And if so, do you help people from the cultures where it's not working so
49:20
well to orient towards some of those values and give them tools for that?
49:26
Paula Hertel: I mean, I would say, I'm gonna veer a teeny bit off the culture,
49:30
but I, I think it's a good discussion.
49:32
We do see some gender differences, and so when- Okay
49:37
Women, the m- many of the women that we see through our program are much
49:43
better at being the, the giver of care, the protector of the person who
49:52
has a diagnosis of dementia and less comfortable with being the receiver, and
49:57
less comfortable with asking for help.
49:59
One of our main barns is in the Bay Area in California, and so there's
50:03
this sort of fast-paced Silicon Valley production need to move fast culture.
50:10
And so asking for help often can feel like I'm not doing enough
50:17
for this person that I care for.
50:20
And so, the giving and receiving and that duality of, of, of how it feels
50:28
and the reality of that we- there's this interdependence that we have in this
50:34
dependency model, even though you as a care partner feel like you're doing a good
50:40
job by taking on the role of protector and doer and carer a- actually can create
50:48
more dependency decline a person feeling like they can't do and so they withdraw.
50:55
And so we pick apart those pieces in, i- in those myths that independenceâ¦
51:04
It, it's a myth of independence, like we're all interdependent.
51:07
But that, that myth that being able to be the receiver of something is
51:12
a weakness, and we do that through the interactions with the horses.
51:18
Oftentimes we have a horse that is finished with whatever activity
51:24
exercise that we're working on.
51:26
We're like you know, I think-" Apollo is done for the day.
51:32
What do you guys think?
51:34
Yep, all right, let's, let's thank him for his work, and
51:38
let's go check on another horse.
51:40
And that that's not failure, that's awareness, and without judgment.
51:46
And that is relearning and shifting your mindset that everything has a judgment
51:52
or a value to it instead of just being.
51:55
And I know that feels sort of ethereal, but unwinding that for the care
52:02
partner is is freeing and healthy and and the person living with dementia
52:10
then gets the benefit of being an equal participant, not a dependent
52:18
Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the equine assisted field, or if you're
52:21
considering a career in the equine assisted field, you might want to consider
52:25
taking one of our three neuroscience backed equine assisted programs.
52:29
Horseboy method, now established for 20 years, is the original
52:36
Equine assisted program specifically designed for autism, mentored by and
52:42
developed in conjunction with Dr.
52:45
Temple Grandin and many other neuroscientists.
52:48
We work in the saddle with younger children.
52:52
Helping them create oxytocin in their bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.
52:57
It works incredibly well.
52:59
It's now in about 40 countries.
53:01
Check it out.
53:02
If you're working without horses, you might want to look at movement
53:07
method, which gets a very, very similar effect, but can also be
53:10
applied in schools, in homes.
53:12
If you're working with families, you can give them really tangible exercises to do
53:17
at home that will create neuroplasticity.
53:20
when they're not with you.
53:22
Finally, we have taquine equine integration.
53:25
If you know anything about our programs, you know that we need a
53:28
really high standard of horsemanship in order to create the oxytocin
53:32
in the body of the person that we're working with, child or adult.
53:37
So, this means we need to train a horse in collection, but this
53:40
also has a really beneficial effect on the horse's well being.
53:45
And it also ends your time conflict, where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how
53:49
am I going to condition my horses and maintain them and give them what they
53:52
need, as well as Serving my clients.
53:55
Takine equine integration aimed at a more adult client base
54:00
absolutely gives you this.
54:02
This is interesting.
54:04
W- q- you're talking about quality of life here.
54:06
You're talking about enjoyment of life.
54:07
Paula Hertel: Mm-hmm.
54:08
Rupert Isaacson: And- It's,
54:08
Paula Hertel: and, and non-judgment- Yeah â¦ I think that, yeah, so, so what?
54:14
He's not into it today, so what?
54:16
Someone wants- Yeah â¦ four shirts.
54:19
So what, the h- horse doesn't wanna take a walk today.
54:24
Like, okay, that's good to notice.
54:27
Let's try something else.
54:29
Mm-hmm.
54:29
Instead of this sort of control-
54:32
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm â¦ attachment to outcome
54:33
worry.
54:34
Yeah.
54:34
Paula Hertel: Yeah.
54:35
Attachment to outcome.
54:36
Yes.
54:36
Exactly.
54:37
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
54:37
And
54:37
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: you're dealing with a terminal disease, so there is no hope.
54:41
There's no cure for dementia at this point, so that crosses every culture.
54:48
Rupert Isaacson: Well, again, so this raises questions.
54:52
I've spent a lot of time with hunting and gathering cultures, like lots, years, and
55:00
people live a long time in those cultures.
55:02
They tend to live into their 90s, and they drink like fish, they smoke
55:06
like chimneys, they bonk everything in sight, including selling their
55:10
bodies to the truckers coming through.
55:12
This is in Botswana, which had the highest HIV rates of a- in Africa
55:16
when I was mostly working there, yet they weren't showing up with HIV.
55:19
Is, is something was goingâ¦
55:20
What was going on?
55:22
And a lot of people who are studying these peoples, they didn't have
55:26
answers, so they just had the questions.
55:27
Like, why, why are these people remaining so healthy?
55:30
They seem to be doing everything wrong.
55:31
Whatâ¦
55:32
okay, they, they're hunters and gatherers.
55:34
They run around a lot, and they live in nature, and they, you know, their
55:38
diet's pretty good of course, and their social dynamics are very good.
55:42
But they have something else at the core of their culture, which is the shaman.
55:45
They have traditional healing.
55:48
And whatever one thinks about that, people usually divide into two camps.
55:54
They usually sort of, "Well, oh, that's just all superstition and
55:57
rubbish," or a sort of over-credulity.
56:01
And you know, if you're a bushman sitting out there in Namibia or Botswana, you
56:04
have never heard the term New Age.
56:06
You don't know what a hippie is.
56:08
You know, that's ir- irrelevant, you know?
56:11
And, and, and you are the most pragmatic person on the planet.
56:15
You know how to recognize from cracks in the ground whether or not
56:20
there's a water-bearing tuber down there- â¦ in the dry season, and
56:24
you can dig it out even though you're 90, and you can, you know- Yeah
56:30
do what you need to do, which obviously most people of 30 in our culture can't do.
56:38
So, there seems to be a lot of constant neuroplasticity going
56:43
on in that you constantly are problem-solving and moving your body,
56:47
and problem-solving and moving your body.
56:49
We know that that leadsâ¦
56:51
or the neuroscience we know now is something called BDNF, brain-derived
56:55
neurotrophic factor- Right
56:56
which is that protein that gets created in the brain that creates new neurons
57:00
that when we do this kind of thing.
57:02
Right.
57:02
Okay.
57:03
But that can't be the whole story because if it was the whole story, then people
57:07
who are very, very active in our li- in our culture wouldn't get dementia.
57:11
Because what you see is that you don't see a lot of people, in fact, I don't
57:14
think I've ever seen anybody in the Kalahari showing up with signs of dementia
57:20
unless they were off their tits drunk and or high or something, and then they
57:25
snap right back to where they should be.
57:28
So what was going on?
57:30
And what I, what one noticed, and not just me, anyone who spent time out
57:34
there is you noticed that they were engaging in an inter- dimensional
57:38
way through the use of trance.
57:41
And this seems to lead to really good outcomes.
57:49
Then I know there have also been studies of people in convents and monasteries
57:54
where they've looked at brain scans, and the people seem to be, you know,
57:58
completely leading the same life they were liv- leading 20 years before, and
58:04
they're just as active, and they're running the garden, and they're running
58:06
the laundry, and they're doing the this, and they're doing the that, and
58:08
the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
58:10
And when the brain scan is done, they seem to be showing as much degeneration as
58:16
somebody showing really intense symptoms.
58:19
Mm-hmm.
58:19
But
58:19
they seem to be showing no symptoms or very few symptoms.
58:23
I wonder if people did those same brain scans on the Bushmen in the Kalahari,
58:27
would they see something similar?
58:28
Would they see the same degeneration but lack of symptoms?
58:31
And if so, why?
58:33
So is there a core spiritual element here that we're not paying attention to?
58:41
That's the first thing, because there seems to be a correlation between those
58:45
monastic environments and the Kalahari, even though the Kalahari people don't
58:49
behave in a monastic way They still have a very, very strong spiritual focus.
58:54
And if so, what do you think that might be?
58:58
And is that what the horse is doing?
59:01
Is the horse taking the place of the shaman?
59:05
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Perhaps.
59:06
Yeah, that, that- It's a very interesting question.
59:10
Paula Hertel: I, I will s- I'll say that a, that a partâ¦
59:14
I don't know the answer to your question.
59:16
I think it's a good, good question.
59:19
Let's discuss.
59:20
Let's discuss.
59:22
But I'll add in the, the meditation piece of it, which is a big
59:27
part of our, of our program.
59:31
And so there's the spirituality piece that you could take the biology back into it
59:37
and say it's reducing the cortisol level and the stress response in our body.
59:42
Part of that, and does the spirituality piece that you talk about in those two
59:46
populations, does that help to reduce the, the cortisol, the stress response in
59:53
our bodies, and is that what's happening?
59:55
And somebody smarter than me is gonna be able to figure that, that piece out.
1:00:01
But what I do know is that being present, being mindful and reducing that
1:00:09
fight-flight-freeze response in our own nervous system is beneficial to all of us.
1:00:16
And specifically in our program, we open our circle with a meditation that takes
1:00:24
people out of the- their crazy mind and brings them into the present that has
1:00:32
them get in touch with their senses, has them get in touch with their body, and
1:00:37
to leave those sort of outcomes and tasks of, of productivity behind and just be
1:00:44
present and grounded in where they're at.
1:00:47
And I really believe that that helps people accept themselves.
1:00:53
It helps them connect with others and be more aware and intentional.
1:00:59
And we see that, and it could be that that's 'cause we're from California,
1:01:04
but we see that across cultures.
1:01:07
We see that across age groups.
1:01:09
We see it in corporate America.
1:01:13
And people call it different things, but it is about how do you calm your body,
1:01:18
calm your mind so that you're present in connection with who you are, and that,
1:01:24
that physiological response is good for your health and good for your wellbeing.
1:01:33
Rupert Isaacson: When you do your meditations this is
1:01:36
interesting to me you're all
1:01:38
You know, meditation is a, is, is largely i- in the way it's done in
1:01:42
like a sangha, is, is often a sort of a top-down instruction type thing.
1:01:47
You know, I'm leading the thing and you â¦ When I say breathe,
1:01:51
you breathe in like this, and you breathe out like this, and so on.
1:01:53
Do you get then the people with, let's say they've got mid-range symptoms, do
1:01:58
you have someone sort of stand up in the middle of that, cut a huge fart,
1:02:01
say, "Hoist the mainsail," and, you know, "There she blows," and throw
1:02:04
a harpoon at the imaginary whale?
1:02:06
Or-
1:02:08
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: No.
1:02:08
â¦ do
1:02:08
Rupert Isaacson: you actually find that when you're in that space, even someone
1:02:12
who might have a ve- a sort of completely inappropriate reaction because of the
1:02:18
symptoms in, in one situation, they actually come into coherence in your
1:02:23
situation there, in that meditation?
1:02:25
And if so, why?
1:02:27
Why do you think that is?
1:02:30
Paula Hertel: So it's the latter.
1:02:31
We see people calm.
1:02:34
And Kansas has taught us a lot about this and so we incorporate
1:02:38
a lot of the HeartMath piece- Mm â¦ that she taught us.
1:02:40
And in fact, one of our main facilitators is a, a HeartMath facilitator,
1:02:47
certified HeartMath facilitator.
1:02:49
And and so again, outwardly s- we will sometimes see people fidget
1:02:56
or even verbalize a- anxiety, that sort of vi- you know, call it
1:03:01
the sort of sparkle nervousness.
1:03:03
And with touch and breath, people calm.
1:03:08
And so, what's going on inside, if Kansas is still with us, I think she should jump
1:03:14
on and, and explain that piece to it.
1:03:17
But from, from the outside, it is pa- for me it is the acceptance of group work.
1:03:25
So a piece of our, our program is about group acceptance, group work
1:03:32
and, and, and feeding off each other.
1:03:35
So when the group calms, breathes, and that energy shifts because
1:03:41
we, people and horses, are all helping to calm the environment,
1:03:49
you can't help but respond to that.
1:03:52
And, and then the second piece of it is that older adults
1:03:58
don't get touched very often.
1:03:59
Mm.
1:04:00
So just holding somebody's hand and breathing with them oftentimes
1:04:07
have you breathing together.
1:04:10
And that that safety, that feeling that I'm connected to somebody else,
1:04:17
that bringing into the group versus that isolation and pulling back that we
1:04:23
talked about earlier makes a difference
1:04:27
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:04:27
So that spiritual co- component seems to bring people back into a sort of
1:04:35
appropriate nervous system response.
1:04:38
Mm-hmm.
1:04:38
Meaning
1:04:39
that then somebody who perhaps earlier might not have been able to engage
1:04:44
in that group top-down instruction sort of a thing now can behave in
1:04:50
a sort of outwardly functional way.
1:04:54
Paula Hertel: And we're all equal, so all of our volunteers, all
1:04:58
of our participants go through this grounding exercise together.
1:05:03
Right.
1:05:04
It isn't about us fixing someone or- No â¦ you know, we are all â¦ So that
1:05:10
group together is, is breathing together, is focusing on acceptance together, is
1:05:20
getting intentional about how we're gonna interact with the horses, and so we show,
1:05:26
we, the collective we, show up open, calm, and ready to engage with the horses.
1:05:35
And so, part of this is when we're talking about equine-assisted services, we talk a
1:05:41
lot about how the horses show up for us.
1:05:47
We as a group and individuals also have a responsibility of how we
1:05:52
show up to interact with the horses.
1:05:55
So if I come and I'm anxious and nervous or angry and I show up that
1:06:05
way to the horse, that horse is gonna retreat because they don't
1:06:10
wanna connect with me in that- Right
1:06:13
kind of energy.
1:06:13
So that, that self-agency is is a responsibility and a gift because I as
1:06:22
an older person or I as a person with a diagnosis of dementia, I as a burned-out
1:06:28
caregiver now have a way to regulate my own body and the way I show up.
1:06:40
That's mine.
1:06:41
That's power because that's not someone doing something to me.
1:06:44
That is the way, that is me making a conscious decision of how I'm
1:06:48
gonna show up for the group, for the horses, for this experience.
1:06:55
Rupert Isaacson: I have a, a great friend and colleague called Joelle Dunlap,
1:06:58
who runs something called Square Peg Foundation outside of San Francisco.
1:07:02
We know each other through mostly, you know, autism and other types of work
1:07:06
like that, but she also, like us, works with a wide variety of populations.
1:07:10
She made the point quite recently that a lot of what we seem to be dealing with
1:07:16
in all the populations we're working with is effectively cortisol poisoning.
1:07:22
Mm.
1:07:22
You know, when we talk aboutâ¦
1:07:24
I t- I'm talking about, say, the Bushmen.
1:07:26
Life's not easy out there, but it is life as humans are supposed to live it.
1:07:32
And because of that, provided someone's not coming in and actually
1:07:36
displacing you from the land or something, there's a kind of base
1:07:39
happiness that you, that's noticeable, and a sort of lightheartedness.
1:07:43
Mm-hmm.
1:07:45
I think a lot of my own lightheartedness I sort of learned from them.
1:07:48
They're irreverent.
1:07:49
They don't take things very seriously.
1:07:51
They certainly don't take spirituality very seriously, while at the
1:07:54
same time being possibly the most spiritual people on the planet.
1:07:57
But they, they don't approach it with a sense of reverence at all, at all.
1:08:01
The work that's we- that's been done on us with Horse Boy and our programs seems
1:08:07
to show that we create oxytocin, which of course brings down cortisol, 'cause
1:08:15
it's the antidote effectively, but itâ¦
1:08:17
and soothes the nervous system and makes people feel good, but it's
1:08:20
also the hormone of communication.
1:08:22
I'mâ¦
1:08:23
From listening to what you're talking about, I'm wondering if something
1:08:25
similar is maybe going on with your work, that y- you're doing a decrease.
1:08:29
People are coming in ma- you know, flooded with cortisol.
1:08:32
"Shit, I've had this terrible diagnosis.
1:08:34
Shit, my spouse has got this terrible diagnosis.
1:08:37
Fuck, it's all over."
1:08:38
You know, "Jesus Christ, this is the worst thing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
1:08:41
Life is so hard.
1:08:42
The insurance won't pay anything.
1:08:43
It's all so expensive.
1:08:44
You know, what are we gonna do?
1:08:45
Blah, blah, blah."
1:08:46
And to be in an environment where you, the cortisol level is brought down and
1:08:54
then replaced by connection, which is oxytocin what do you think of that?
1:08:59
And if that's the case, by the way, why do it with a horse?
1:09:04
Why not also do it with, say, a dog or, or, you know, another social animal?
1:09:08
Because we, you know, studies have shown that, for example, you can
1:09:10
increase your oxytocin by obviously hugging another human, but also
1:09:14
stroking your dog or whatever.
1:09:16
So what do you think is the particular value of the horse in this?
1:09:19
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Well, because a horse is a prey
1:09:21
animal compared to a predator-
1:09:25
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
1:09:25
â¦ Nancy Schier Anzelmo: chosen horses for that reason, 'cause they're scanning their
1:09:29
environment constantly to see if we're- Mm â¦ gonna hurt them or help them or whatever.
1:09:35
And they also live in a herd, and they look out for each other,
1:09:38
if they can live in a herd, Mm.
1:09:40
Depending where the horse is living.
1:09:42
But the ones we use do.
1:09:43
And so the, the horse has as we know from equine-assisted learning, that,
1:09:49
y- you know, they've shown up with all the research there's been about
1:09:52
horses healing so many populations, Rupert, and that's why we chose horses.
1:09:57
Because, you know, if it can help children with autism, if it, if they can help
1:10:03
prisoners, and first responders, and veterans, why can't it help people in
1:10:09
this state of a devastating diagnosis?
1:10:12
Older adults, just because they're older doesn't mean that they
1:10:16
can't have the same response, 'cause we're still living beings.
1:10:20
And the horse has been there for all these other populations.
1:10:24
So Paula and I thought we're the first ones in the country that we know, maybe
1:10:28
the world, we don't know, that have done this type of a, a program with older
1:10:33
adults with a neurocognitive disease such as Alzheimer's disease or other
1:10:39
diagnosis, and their care partner.
1:10:41
Because it does throw the family into a s- a state of panic, just like you said.
1:10:46
And so this diagnosis, you know, more â¦ Older adults are more afraid
1:10:52
of getting dementia than cancer.
1:10:54
So that tells you a lot, right?
1:10:56
Mm.
1:10:56
And so that, they feel like they're losing their sense of self.
1:11:00
But the-
1:11:00
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
1:11:00
â¦ Nancy Schier Anzelmo: person is still there always, as you mentioned
1:11:04
with your grandmother, and it's up, up to us to bring that out.
1:11:08
And the horse brings it out better than anything we've ever seen in our 30
1:11:14
years of practice in this medical field
1:11:18
Paula Hertel: I think there's something about the physicality of it too.
1:11:21
I'd like to- Oh, go ahead, Kansas.
1:11:23
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I, I was hoping Kansas might jump in on this, 'cause
1:11:26
I, I was wondering if, if there's also something about the scale and
1:11:29
the size of the horse's heart- Mm-hmm
1:11:31
um, that's involved in this.
1:11:33
Kansas Carradine: Yeah.
1:11:34
I, I'll just chime in for a little minute, because, you know, when you speak about
1:11:38
how is the horse kind of playing the role of the shaman and really connecting us
1:11:42
to our spirit, each time there's a equine facilitated interaction, oftentimes we
1:11:47
really treat the moment deeply with honor and respect, and we treat it sacred.
1:11:54
And then we're inviting in this ritual, in a way.
1:11:56
Like, there's kind of a, a protocol, a program, a ritualistic repetition.
1:12:01
It's ceremonial, in a way.
1:12:03
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:12:03
Kansas Carradine: And that, that energetic, again, from the facilitation,
1:12:07
the kind of holding that we're doing a shamanic ritual, in essence, and it's
1:12:13
connecting us to the spiritual world.
1:12:15
We're doing that very kind of scientifically, and we've grounded
1:12:19
it in evidence-based research so people don't just wanna take us off
1:12:22
to the loony bin and whatnot and, or burn us at the stake, right?
1:12:25
But it's ultimately what is taking place.
1:12:28
And there's something that, in the early days of research with HeartMath, they were
1:12:31
focusing on something called entrainment, and there's a fascinating phenomena
1:12:35
that, like, if you have cuckoo clocks or metronomes and you have, say, 100 of them,
1:12:40
they will all eventually synchronize.
1:12:43
And the process of entrainment, so that rhythm that is really coherent,
1:12:46
like the heartbeat of a drum.
1:12:48
If you've been in Native American ceremonies and you hear that drum, is
1:12:51
the heartbeat, and it just continues.
1:12:54
Similarly, this pulse that is sent out that is, again, coherent, that is
1:12:58
uniting, that creates harmony, that is something that we can all entrain to.
1:13:03
So when we â¦ An individual who, if they're in a shamanic ceremony and they
1:13:08
might be out of balance and are seeking some sort of return to center they will
1:13:12
come in the group of individuals who are, you know, centered, or someone
1:13:16
who's trans- trans- transmediary for the spiritual realm, to create that
1:13:21
entrainment so that everybody can be cohesive again once in the community.
1:13:26
Right?
1:13:26
And so when we come together, the entrainment of these other hearts,
1:13:30
you know, the horses as well, and quite frankly, most of the time
1:13:33
people are gonna be on a stable.
1:13:34
You might only work with one horse, but maybe there's 20 there or 40.
1:13:38
So there's all these other beings that are, that are attuned to each other, and
1:13:42
then we come in and receive, you know, indirectly or directly this attunement.
1:13:47
I think really that, that â¦ You know, I can't explain it as much in the, in
1:13:51
the â¦ We're starting to be able to measure some of these things, but the
1:13:54
process of entrainment and treating it as a sacred way to honor, because I
1:13:59
think the cortisol poisoning that Joelle is speaking to, and it's interesting
1:14:03
because Janet Fitch, who is teaching the, the Heart Math with Connected
1:14:08
Horse also does that with Joelle Dunlap.
1:14:11
So Janet Fitch is all around.
1:14:12
She's a great, great Heart Math trainer who is also, like, head of HR for Kaiser
1:14:16
Permanente, the, one of the largest healthcare systems in California.
1:14:20
And she believes so much in that particular work because the
1:14:23
cortisol poisoning that we're experiencing is because we don't
1:14:26
take anything as sacred, because we completely lost our sense of ritual.
1:14:31
We've lost our connection to the earth.
1:14:33
We've lost our connection to ourselves.
1:14:34
So we need ritual.
1:14:35
We've lost our connection to ourselves.
1:14:36
Okay, so we need ritual to bring our
1:14:36
Rupert Isaacson: cortisol levels down.
1:14:38
Right?
1:14:40
Kansas Carradine: It feels like that will create some risoner- res- regularity,
1:14:44
familiarity, consistency, and therefore that rhythm, and therefore those
1:14:50
rituals also create that entrainment.
1:14:52
We have something to grasp onto that can give us some, some sense
1:14:57
of really predictability also.
1:14:59
Yeah.
1:15:01
And that's just
1:15:04
that's conjecture.
1:15:05
Do, do you remember we did
1:15:06
Rupert Isaacson: a podcast a couple weeks ago, Kansas, and it w- that
1:15:09
1997 study from the University of Kassel in Germany came up.
1:15:13
Mm.
1:15:14
They were â¦ There had been- The first ones, yeah
1:15:15
It's, it's amazing that this was so long ago and that even in my
1:15:18
field I hadn't heard of it, and I've been living in Germany and
1:15:21
working with German universities.
1:15:22
No one had told me.
1:15:23
But it turns out, 'cause Kansas told me and I looked it up and it turned
1:15:26
out to be true, that a study had been done, showing the emission of photons,
1:15:32
light particles, from human hearts when people were thinking thoughts of love.
1:15:42
Apparently- I would, I would
1:15:43
Kansas Carradine: interrupt here because- Yeah, go
1:15:44
ahead â¦ feeling, it's the feeling.
1:15:47
It's not thinking it, it's feeling.
1:15:48
You,
1:15:48
Rupert Isaacson: you take it away because you, you know
1:15:50
this study- â¦ better than I.
1:15:52
Kansas Carradine: No, I, I mean, I just think it's a really â¦ We talk about
1:15:54
thinking and imagining, and that's a step to it, but when you really feel it and
1:15:58
you anchor it in, this feeling of love, this feeling of connection, the feeling
1:16:03
of being safe and secure, the feeling of being accepted, the feeling of compassion,
1:16:11
those are actual tangible experiences in the human, in the human world.
1:16:18
And so when you're really feeling that and then broadcasting it and what people
1:16:23
are calling now heart coherence in a very deliberate way where we regulate
1:16:29
our breathing pattern to be even inhale and exhale and it takes a little bit
1:16:33
more focus, but the light photons that are being emanated expand from,
1:16:40
like, 10 to 20 normal to thousand.
1:16:43
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:16:44
I'm, I'm just â¦ I looked it up again on my phone- The impact- â¦ because
1:16:46
it's hard to keep the figures- â¦ of our heart â¦ in one's mind.
1:16:48
Yeah.
1:16:48
It, the claim â¦ The internet â¦ Blah, blah, blah.
1:16:51
The average human heart seems to emit 20 photos- photons per
1:16:55
second, which is interesting that if light is love and love is light.
1:16:58
Okay.
1:16:59
While a meditating person emits 100,000 photons per second.
1:17:07
That â¦ So it's very interesting to me that biophotons they're calling
1:17:14
them if that's a sort of measurable expression of love, if you've got beings
1:17:22
with exceptionally big, physically big hearts, horses, and as you said, Kansas,
1:17:29
maybe you got 20 of them in the barn and they're all observing what's going on-
1:17:36
I- i- is that part of creating that vibrational thing that
1:17:40
happens in ritual and ceremony?
1:17:42
That's why we dance.
1:17:43
Mm.
1:17:43
That's why we chant, to bring that vibrational change to
1:17:47
a different resonance, and it's â¦ This is well measured now.
1:17:50
It measured Tibetan monks and, you know, it's, it's not in any way woo-woo.
1:17:54
This is people have put the EEG machines on and found, yeah the brainwaves come
1:17:59
to alpha waves, delta waves, and people seem able to be much more effective.
1:18:05
Okay.
1:18:06
So for example, when we were observing first my son and then other kids, and
1:18:10
then eventually adults lying body to body on a horse and coming into this
1:18:15
state of deep, deep, deep resonance and calm first we're like, "Well, I
1:18:19
don't know why that's happening, but it's great, so let's keep doing it."
1:18:22
And then we discovered heart math, and we're like, "Ah, I wonder if it's
1:18:24
because they're on this body that has this huge heart resonance that they're
1:18:30
putting their heart directly on."
1:18:32
And that's why I asked you earlier in this conversation, what was the
1:18:36
what did the, what did the people do when they were in the round pen?
1:18:39
Did they go in eventually for a hug?
1:18:42
And that's the sort of first heart-to-heart thing with, with, with the
1:18:44
horse, and the answer seems to be yes.
1:18:47
And then we've often noticed in our work that let's say you've got two
1:18:51
or three other horses around while someone is doing this thing that we
1:18:54
call sensory work, lying on the horse i- in this way, and the horse will
1:18:57
often go into this state of kind of like and literally like start drooling.
1:19:03
You know?
1:19:03
They go into kind of a bliss state.
1:19:04
But we'll notice that the two, three other horses standing nearby will get a
1:19:08
contact high and go into the same state.
1:19:11
Mm.
1:19:11
So we see this all the time.
1:19:13
So is what we're all stumbling into here-
1:19:21
In fact, yes, this way of finding our way back to the types of ceremony and
1:19:27
vi- that cause the vibrational change that, say, a Bushman might be able to do
1:19:31
every 10 days because they just happen to have shamans readily available that
1:19:35
we no longer have 'cause we burned them all alive over a several hundred years.
1:19:39
And that now we are actually finding our way back to these states, and that's
1:19:44
through work like yours, and that's why we're finding these good outcomes.
1:19:49
And then that's gonna be my next question as well.
1:19:51
So the question is, A, do we think that's what's happening?
1:19:54
And B, what are the outcomes?
1:19:58
Are you see- so I know you said Nancy, for example, "Oh, well, you know,
1:20:01
it, it's, it's a diagnosis forever.
1:20:03
The brain is going to degenerate, so blah, blah, blah."
1:20:05
Yeah, sure.
1:20:07
But you could say the same thing about TBIs, you could say the same thing about
1:20:11
strokes, you could say the same thing about- Right â¦ autism that is perhaps
1:20:15
produced by a toxic shock to the brain and the nervous system, enough said on that.
1:20:20
But what we've observed is that, yeah, sure, that might be the starting point,
1:20:25
but if you create enough neuroplasticity-
1:20:28
Mm-hmm
1:20:29
you can absolutely change the outcome.
1:20:34
And okay, maybe that person is going to need certain supports in their life or
1:20:38
such and such and such, but nonetheless, they can go on to live like a really,
1:20:42
really good fulfilled, even economically successful life, particularly if
1:20:47
they have some supports around them.
1:20:49
So that it's not hopeless by any means at all, and that calming down of the,
1:20:57
of the, of the cortisol and then the creating of that good neuroplasticity
1:21:01
is still a factor for outcome.
1:21:05
That's right.
1:21:05
So are you seeing what outcomes in that sort of way are you seeing with
1:21:09
the, with the work that you're doing?
1:21:11
I, I- Not just acceptance, right?
1:21:13
Kansas Carradine: I would love for you guys to be able to answer this, but I'm
1:21:16
gonna have to go soon because I'm also going to be spending time with Sanaa,
1:21:20
who I think we should have on this podcast as well, and she brings miniature
1:21:24
horses into memory care facilities that are much more I guess advanced, right?
1:21:29
Uh-huh.
1:21:29
They do require full-time minding or caregivers.
1:21:33
Sorry for the background noise.
1:21:35
And it's really fascinating.
1:21:37
Similarly, those who have been non-verbal will begin to start to
1:21:40
speak, and the hand grooming that you talk about Nancy and Paula, that's
1:21:44
in your program, touch and all along.
1:21:47
And then one last local story is my uncle, his father-in-law had a very
1:21:52
early onset, and he would be in very tight, contracted tension, and that
1:21:58
would be showing, exhibiting as a lot of agitation, and he would end
1:22:02
up taking him out and around horses.
1:22:03
And he has this video of him just relaxing.
1:22:07
His hands would unwind.
1:22:09
He would have a smile on his face, and he would actually be riding
1:22:12
the horse, and it was as though, "Oh, there's, there's Dad again."
1:22:16
So that's, that's a couple outcomes, and I know you guys have many, many
1:22:19
more, but I'm gonna go because I'm gonna get hitched up and head out to
1:22:23
work with Sanaa and the mini ponies.
1:22:25
Rupert Isaacson: Then- Great.
1:22:26
Thank you â¦ can you please, just quickly, when you get there, please,
1:22:29
on my behalf, ask Sanaa if she would come on the show and talk.
1:22:33
Yes.
1:22:34
Would you just invite her- Definitely â¦ and let's co-host it
1:22:36
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Okay.
1:22:37
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah?
1:22:38
Beautiful.
1:22:38
Paula Hertel: All
1:22:38
Rupert Isaacson: right, grand.
1:22:39
Okay.
1:22:39
See you in a bit.
1:22:40
Yes.
1:22:40
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Bye, Candice.
1:22:41
Rupert Isaacson: Bye.
1:22:42
if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then
1:22:47
you've probably also always wondered a little bit about the old master system.
1:22:53
of dressage training.
1:22:54
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
1:23:03
exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
1:23:09
of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
1:23:16
well being of the horse and the rider.
1:23:18
Intrigued?
1:23:19
Like to know more?
1:23:21
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
1:23:26
Check out the free introduction course.
1:23:28
Take it from there.
1:23:29
Paula Hertel: Bye.
1:23:30
It's- The other piece that I think is interesting to talk about in terms of,
1:23:37
of the individual, so you're talking sort of about ritual and, and consistency.
1:23:43
There are times at the barn where there's tractors and work going on,
1:23:50
and birds making lots of noise, and when we close the, the circle, we
1:23:56
usually ask people to share a word or a phrase about their experience.
1:24:02
And many times it is calm, peaceful.
1:24:07
And, and, and so it reminds me that, that we take in what we wanna take in.
1:24:16
So the work that we have done with the, the experiences that people
1:24:22
have had in the workshops with the horses and with each other, they-
1:24:27
their, their consciousness has shut out the tractor, the, all theseâ¦
1:24:34
the, the train going by, the honking car down the street, which-
1:24:39
Rupert Isaacson: The people letting off automatic fire over
1:24:41
the other side of the fence.
1:24:43
Yeah, so those- That's something we often have to deal with
1:24:46
Paula Hertel: Yeah.
1:24:46
Those things that- â¦ that we would judge as, "Oh, that's ruining the
1:24:50
program," or, "That's, that's taking away our peace," they have pushed out.
1:24:55
And so there is, again, that agency of people to feel what they wanna
1:25:00
feel and experience what they wanna experience by what they allow to
1:25:05
come in to their mind and their body.
1:25:10
The first time that we did our program at Stanford, there was, like,
1:25:14
this 100-year storm in California.
1:25:17
And we're like, "Oh, my God."
1:25:19
Thunder and rain, and we're looking at the protocols, and they're
1:25:23
like, "Okay, as long as there's not lightning, we can still-
1:25:25
Rupert Isaacson: And God said, "Yes, this program will be good."
1:25:28
Paula Hertel: We can still do this.
1:25:28
And so we are apologizing, and we were all, you know, in, in fight-flight
1:25:33
mode, and our cortisol was up.
1:25:35
And one of the participants said to us This is nothing.
1:25:41
You know?
1:25:42
Like- Yeah â¦ from what we're dealing with, this is nothing,
1:25:44
and we're like, "Of course."
1:25:46
And, you know, we let it go, and it was an amazing day when we let go of the
1:25:51
outcome that the sun had to be shining, and we had to have blue, white puffy
1:25:56
cloud, blue sky and white puffy clouds.
1:25:58
Rupert Isaacson: And- Or at least not 100 mile an hour winds.
1:26:00
Yeah, yeah.
1:26:00
Right,
1:26:01
Paula Hertel: yeah.
1:26:01
We didn't have that much wind, but we did have rain and thunder, and the
1:26:04
horses showed up in beautiful ways.
1:26:06
And so- Yeah â¦ it is how do you modify your experience and
1:26:11
how, and your own ability to, to decide how you're gonna show up,
1:26:19
Rupert Isaacson: whether- It's interesting too.
1:26:19
In any shamanic ceremony, that would have been taken asâ¦
1:26:22
In, in any culture I've ever gone to in any part of the world, that would have
1:26:25
been taken as a sign of immense good fortune if, if that showed up- Yeah,
1:26:28
it was â¦ in the middle of a ceremony.
1:26:29
Paula Hertel: Yeah.
1:26:29
It took us a while for our brains to get there, and our sense of wanting to
1:26:34
control what we thought this should be.
1:26:38
Mm-hmm.
1:26:38
And so, you know, we're learning all the time too, and how do you
1:26:42
learn to let go and be in the moment, whatever that moment is.
1:26:46
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:26:46
Paula Hertel: And let go.
1:26:48
And our brain responds to what we tell it, right?
1:26:53
And so if we feel like we're in fear, if we feel like everything is going wrong,
1:26:58
if we feel like people are showing up with love around us, we respond to, to that.
1:27:07
And our, our ability to interact and connect is impacted by how we're feeling.
1:27:17
About our environment Couldn't, couldn't
1:27:18
Rupert Isaacson: agree more.
1:27:20
Outcomes.
1:27:21
Yes.
1:27:21
So when people contact us, you know, say, "Okay, we want toâ¦"
1:27:25
We have three programs, right?
1:27:26
So if I engage in one of these thr- pr- programs, what have the outcomes been?
1:27:30
And so we can say, "Well, look, if it's Horse Boy method and young kids,
1:27:34
we have seen a lot of kids go from non-verbal to verbal or non-communicati-
1:27:38
communicative to communicative," you said unable to communicate or et cetera.
1:27:44
And then these are the family outcomes that we've seen involved.
1:27:46
And then people might say, "Well, for Movement Method," which is our one without
1:27:49
horses, you know, "What have those been?"
1:27:51
And we might say, "We see a lot of neuroplasticity.
1:27:53
We see a, a great happiness and joy frequently coming out of that
1:27:58
and cognitive abilities beyond where they were, often reflected
1:28:02
in such things as ability to go get a job or that sort of thing."
1:28:06
And if someone says, "Oh, with TAKIN," that's our adult equine
1:28:10
program on the ground, was we say, you know, "It's, it's usually the
1:28:14
healing of trauma and resilience.
1:28:16
That's what has been seen and measured and observed and blah."
1:28:21
I won'tâ¦
1:28:21
But as you said, Nancy, we're not saying you will now not be autistic.
1:28:25
Quite the opposite.
1:28:26
You're gonna be autistic for life, but there are great gifts with this.
1:28:28
The outcomes of the autism can therefore be very positive.
1:28:32
Or yes, you've had this trauma, but now the outcomes of the
1:28:35
resilience that comes- Yeah
1:28:37
with the trauma c- can be and perhaps will be very positive.
1:28:40
So in terms of your outcomes, we're not, we'reâ¦
1:28:43
Let's not waste minutes saying, "Okay, well, you know, they're still
1:28:47
gonna have the degenerative disease."
1:28:49
Yes, yes, yes, but we also know neuroplasticity exists, and you
1:28:53
guys seem to be doing that and dealing with the cortisol as well.
1:28:57
So let's talk about outcomes.
1:28:58
D- d- stories, says what, what's, what's happening?
1:29:00
What have you observed?
1:29:01
What have youâ¦
1:29:01
Yeah.
1:29:02
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: The outcomes are amazing.
1:29:04
What we, we've actually term it activation.
1:29:07
Okay.
1:29:08
So once you get this diagnosis and you go through this workshop, we're learning
1:29:13
about tools and presence and all the things we've been talking about for the
1:29:16
past hour, and they take that with them.
1:29:19
And so because of that, it activates individuals to start living again-
1:29:25
To go to the gym, eat healthy, go get support, do whatever they can do to
1:29:30
modify the outcome and not just take a diagnosis, go in the corner, take your
1:29:36
antidepressant, and wait till you die, which is what it was when we started.
1:29:40
Okay?
1:29:41
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:29:41
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: So that is one of the things that we're very, very
1:29:45
inspired by, that we have story after story of people that started going on
1:29:50
vacation again, going out to dinner, going back to the gym becoming a vegetarian.
1:29:55
Whatever they decided they wanted to do was their thing to activate
1:30:00
together a change in lifestyle.
1:30:03
And if it's one-third genetics and two-thirds lifestyle, which is
1:30:06
what the science says now, then you have the neuroplasticity, you have
1:30:11
all these tools to help you get through this journey going forward.
1:30:16
Rupert Isaacson: Two-thirds lifestyle
1:30:18
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Correct.
1:30:19
Mm-hmm.
1:30:19
They change their vision, they change their thought, they change their actions.
1:30:24
Just like I said, if you have diabetes or you're pre-diabetic, are you gonna just
1:30:29
take it or are you gonna change, right?
1:30:31
So that's up to the individual of how they're going to do that, but
1:30:35
the workshops seem to activate, and we see people in their, their
1:30:40
presence, their posture, their ability to verbal- verbalize their needs,
1:30:46
their ability to work together as a pair and communicate without words.
1:30:52
That a horse teaches us, right?
1:30:54
And shows us how to do that.
1:30:56
And so we have all of these stories of people that â¦ You know, one
1:31:00
gentleman I'm thinking of wouldn't even come out of the house, and his
1:31:03
wife emailed us after going, "We barely got him to the workshop."
1:31:07
And after â¦ And he was a brilliant, brilliant scientist, so he was
1:31:10
just devastated with this, right?
1:31:13
And so he â¦ They started going to the gym, they started traveling.
1:31:17
They modified their travel.
1:31:18
They went on cruises instead of, you know, something that was very stressful.
1:31:21
And so they were able to live again, and that is our goal.
1:31:26
That people live with this diagnosis, live with dementia, and go on.
1:31:32
And perhaps, and as we've seen with quite a few participants, it holds it still for
1:31:37
a while until everything else takes over and the, you know, all the other health
1:31:43
issues that come with old age that, that may or may not come with that individual.
1:31:47
Comorbidities will set in, and then, you know, they â¦ But
1:31:52
they have a longer, happier life.
1:31:54
It's not a death sentence anymore, like people used to think, as we see
1:31:58
in the movies, and all the negative stereotypes about dementia that are
1:32:02
prevalent in every society worldwide.
1:32:05
And some cultures still think that, you know, they're possessed or they're
1:32:10
witches or there's something else, you know, going on with the person.
1:32:13
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, this happens with autism too.
1:32:15
Yeah.
1:32:16
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Exactly.
1:32:16
So it's very, very similar.
1:32:18
And so we're able to provide some tools on this journey that help them take
1:32:26
control of their lives again, even after a diagnosis that's so devastating.
1:32:30
That doesn't mean it's the end of your life.
1:32:32
So no matter what diagnosis, a parent with autism or a, a, a a mother with dementia,
1:32:39
I mean, it's still the same thing, and why can't it be the same for older adults?
1:32:44
Because the stigma of ageism is so prevalent.
1:32:47
Why can't it be the same for them as it would be for a child?
1:32:51
We have hope and activation for children, but why can't
1:32:54
we have it for a 90-year-old?
1:32:56
Rupert Isaacson: Have you seen it go further than, you know, hitting
1:32:58
the gym and taking a cruise?
1:33:00
Have you seen it manifest in things like, "Okay, I'm actually
1:33:03
gonna write that novel."
1:33:05
You know, "I'm actually going to make that-" creative, great thing which I have
1:33:10
been procrastinating for for 40 years.
1:33:12
You know, have you seen that kind of thing as well?
1:33:15
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Yes, we have.
1:33:16
We've had s- people just change their lives and get back to living,
1:33:21
especially with young onset.
1:33:23
When they're getting a diagnosis like this in their 60s or 50s- Mm
1:33:28
we really see more of a change than someone who gets
1:33:31
it in late stage, over 85.
1:33:33
L- later in life, meaning.
1:33:35
Do you- But that might be just, you know, many different factors
1:33:39
based on that individual.
1:33:41
Rupert Isaacson: I- is the first and most important thing that you see that
1:33:43
the change is movement, more movement?
1:33:47
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: We see that in the workshop every time.
1:33:49
They're, they're exhausted after the first one.
1:33:51
Mm.
1:33:51
We're walking around, and they're moving, and they're not sitting in
1:33:54
front of the chair watching Oprah.
1:33:56
They're actually doing something, right?
1:33:58
And, and movement is life.
1:34:01
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:34:02
Paula Hertel: Yeah.
1:34:04
And I think it's, it's no one thing in the workshops.
1:34:08
It's a, it's, it's the interconnectedness of everything.
1:34:13
And so you're calming the nervous system.
1:34:15
You're getting people moving.
1:34:17
You're creating a space where people are accepted, and there's
1:34:22
unconditional desire to be in connection.
1:34:25
You're doing something new together.
1:34:28
You're, you're in a social environment.
1:34:31
And so all of those things together and then we have an incredible group of
1:34:38
volunteers that take on the carer role.
1:34:42
And so if someone needs a chair, if people need water, if, We always do some sort
1:34:47
of- â¦ food and gathering together.
1:34:50
All of that is sort of taken care of, so people's day-to-day role of how they
1:34:56
identify themselves sort of diminish.
1:34:58
And so those roles and identity of, of creativity and desire to
1:35:05
be of purpose can bubble back up.
1:35:08
So all of that together is what allows for that energy of activation and
1:35:15
confidence to be curious about what your life looks like and what you want your
1:35:24
life to look like has space to, to be.
1:35:30
Rupert Isaacson: You talk about your barn, but I also heard you say one of our barns.
1:35:34
So when you say one of our barns, do you mean that you've gone out and trained
1:35:37
a bunch of people how to do this- Mm
1:35:39
and it's now in a bunch of barns, but you have a- an HQ at a barn where
1:35:43
you guys have your main practice?
1:35:45
Is th- is that the, the pattern we're looking at?
1:35:48
Paula Hertel: Right.
1:35:48
So we, out of, out of research, we found a barn that allows us to use
1:35:55
their horses and their facility to run our program, and so we continue
1:36:01
to work and innovate at that barn.
1:36:04
Rupert Isaacson: That's your laboratory, if you like.
1:36:05
That's-
1:36:06
Paula Hertel: Yeah.
1:36:06
Pardon me?
1:36:06
Rupert Isaacson: That's your laboratory.
1:36:08
Paula Hertel: Yeah.
1:36:08
Yeah.
1:36:09
Yeah.
1:36:09
And and then about- And
1:36:11
Rupert Isaacson: where is that barn?
1:36:12
Paula Hertel: That's in Pleasanton, California called Five Star Equestrian.
1:36:15
Outside San
1:36:16
Rupert Isaacson: Francisco
1:36:17
â¦ Paula Hertel: right outside of San Francisco, and it's, it's
1:36:20
a unique and beautiful place.
1:36:22
It's actually a hunter jumper student training barn, and so we
1:36:26
have the intergenerational piece.
1:36:28
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:36:30
Paula Hertel: And we have schooling horses and competitive horses, and the women that
1:36:36
run that barn feel like we are enriching the lives of the- their students, their
1:36:43
riders, and their horses by having this continuum of interaction with, with
1:36:49
horses, which for, for equestrians and people that are in that world, they'll
1:36:55
know how unique and rare that is that-
1:36:58
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
1:36:58
Paula Hertel: They don't care if a participant is leading the horse from
1:37:01
the wrong side or the halter is not on the right, the right hook and things like
1:37:06
that, and so it's just this beautiful normalization of being with horses.
1:37:11
But about five years ago, Nancy and I decided that really if this program is
1:37:16
gonna grow, we need to train more people how to do that, and truthfully, it was
1:37:21
it was a letting go for us that took a bit because this is our passion project.
1:37:26
This is our baby.
1:37:27
We worked really hard at it, and so how do we align with people that wanna do
1:37:34
this work in a way that is non-judgmental, that is not so outcome driven that there's
1:37:41
a right way and a wrong way to do it?
1:37:44
And it isn't for everybody, and so we spent a, a couple of years developing a
1:37:48
training institute that we now will offer to train other people in other barns
1:37:56
how to do this work so that it can grow.
1:37:58
Our, our dream is that we integrate this into the whole view of how do we care
1:38:06
for, for older adults, for care partners, and for people living with dementia,
1:38:11
which includes Western medicine and other social supports and that your doctor will
1:38:17
write a prescription of come to the barn.
1:38:20
You know, that's, that's, that's our dream, that we allow, allow
1:38:25
the interactions for this kind of therapeutic work and the, the role
1:38:30
of the horse in society becomes more accessible to more people.
1:38:38
Rupert Isaacson: How many people, how many barns, how many organizations
1:38:41
have you trained to date would you say?
1:38:44
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Oh, goodness So we have- We train individuals that aren't
1:38:46
necessarily with a barn, but at this point we have a hor- horse rescue barn
1:38:51
that we work with which is kind of the island of misfit toys, if you will.
1:38:55
Mm-hmm.
1:38:56
And so there's a lot of different horses.
1:38:58
We don't know their history, but they're, they're doing very well there.
1:39:01
And we have PATH, the therapeutic riding barns- Mm â¦ on the East
1:39:04
Coast and in Nevada, and we are in dialogue with many other barns to,
1:39:10
to be able to bring this program.
1:39:12
It takeâ¦
1:39:12
It's free.
1:39:13
We didn't want any barrier to entry to anyone being in the program, and so
1:39:19
therefore it takes a village, meaning we have to have a lot of volunteers that
1:39:22
have to help run this program, and so getting the infrastructure in the barn.
1:39:25
When, when you say it's free,
1:39:26
Rupert Isaacson: the service is free or if someone wants to get trained it's free?
1:39:28
Do they not pay you for a- The
1:39:29
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: service, they pay to go through a training, but then we
1:39:33
have to work with them to set up their barn and their volunteers and make sure,
1:39:38
as Paula said, it's not for everyone.
1:39:39
If they wanna teach horsemanship, this is not our program.
1:39:43
Mm.
1:39:43
And so it's really finding the right fit for us.
1:39:46
But the, the, there is no charge.
1:39:49
We raise money for the program for any participant with a diagnosis- So if
1:39:53
it- â¦ and their family to come through.
1:39:56
Rupert Isaacson: But- To your barn or to the barns that you've trained?
1:39:58
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: To any barn.
1:40:00
Rupert Isaacson: So if somebody- It's part of our mission â¦ let's, let's
1:40:01
say somebody comes to my place and I've gone through your training Do you
1:40:07
pay me to deliver the service to them?
1:40:09
Or wh- when â¦ So how is it free for that, So it's not- â¦ service user?
1:40:13
So
1:40:14
Paula Hertel: part of our mission is that we want participants that come
1:40:18
to any barn that offers this program t- for it to be free, so that the-
1:40:22
Right â¦ barrier to entry is very low.
1:40:25
So one of the things that we are always working out for our own
1:40:29
organization and for our partners is, how do you raise money- Yeah
1:40:33
so that you can pay-
1:40:35
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
1:40:36
â¦ Paula Hertel: for keeping your horses and training your own facility.
1:40:39
So you help
1:40:39
Rupert Isaacson: people to fundraise.
1:40:41
Mm-hmm.
1:40:42
Okay.
1:40:42
Which is- Well,
1:40:42
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: our, our research certainly helps with that, is because
1:40:46
the other programs that are out there, you'll see them on the internet.
1:40:49
I just read an article last night in London, which people go take from a senior
1:40:54
home, they go and pet a horse, and they go and spend the time with the horse.
1:40:57
We don't, we don't wanna do that.
1:40:59
That's a very good program, but we wanna have the skills over a three-week
1:41:04
time period so that they have something to take with them on this journey.
1:41:08
Okay.
1:41:08
So it's not a one and done type of model, just like yours, Rupert.
1:41:12
It takes some time- Yeah â¦ to really get there.
1:41:15
And so th- that is why we find the right barns that partner with us.
1:41:19
We speak at organizations a- about it.
1:41:21
Rupert Isaacson: I'm just trying to get my head around the economics, 'cause
1:41:23
a lot of the people- Right â¦ that listen to this show obviously
1:41:25
are running therapeutic barns.
1:41:26
And I'm sure- Mm â¦ a lot of them are gonna go, "Wow, I'd like to get that
1:41:29
training and add that to my program."
1:41:31
I think anyone in their right mind would, having listened to you.
1:41:33
I'm, I know I would.
1:41:34
So the question is, though everyone has their own economic model, when we, when
1:41:40
we were first back in the early days with Horse Boy Method, because we didn't
1:41:44
charge at our first place at New Trails, I, it was very important for me to give
1:41:49
my services for free because I had been so broke, and I knew that so many parents
1:41:57
were in the position that I'd been in.
1:41:58
However, so, so I, I personally fundraised so that I could give complimentary
1:42:04
services, but- I knew that that was not the position that most of the people I
1:42:08
was training was in, so I didn't want to make them feel they had to do that.
1:42:11
I said, "No, that's just what we do.
1:42:13
But if you have a different economic model where people pay to come in the door,
1:42:17
then obviously it's working, then do that.
1:42:19
Or if you, if you can get things paid for by insurance, do that."
1:42:22
So now subsequently, I, I actually think I was, I was a bit mistaken.
1:42:29
Looking back 15 years, I think that many people that had used our services didn't
1:42:34
actually value them, and developed a sense of entitlement that actually sometimes
1:42:40
stood between them and better outcomes.
1:42:42
And now I won't do that anymore.
1:42:44
But what I do do is I give scholarships.
1:42:46
So if I know that somebody is in real economic straits, then I'm not
1:42:50
gonna let money stand in the way.
1:42:51
But I'mâ¦
1:42:52
But I am going to say there has to be an exchange.
1:42:55
But also these days are, 15 years ago, no insurance company
1:42:59
would pay for what we do.
1:43:00
Now, many do.
1:43:02
Things have changed.
1:43:03
So it, you know, it, it, it's easier for people, et cetera.
1:43:05
So when people are, are listening, you know, they- they're running their program,
1:43:09
they say, "Well, I'd like to do your thing with Connected Horse, but I, I need to
1:43:14
charge people to come through the door."
1:43:17
Is that okay?
1:43:17
I mean, can they still do that?
1:43:19
Paula Hertel: For, for us, what we've found, I think, think about something
1:43:22
that's so new, and, and doing this work with the population that we
1:43:29
serve in the United States is new.
1:43:32
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:43:32
And
1:43:33
Paula Hertel: so if â¦ So we always say, you know, donation-based, and
1:43:38
oftentimes get donations from people.
1:43:41
But what we found, and, and it doesn't mean a partner barn isn't
1:43:45
gonna find something totally different 'cause they live right in
1:43:47
the middle of horse country, say.
1:43:50
What we found is that if we say, "Here's the charge for it," and it's new and
1:43:55
people don't understand what they're really getting into at the moment, they'll
1:43:59
say, "No, I'm not gonna do that now."
1:44:03
And so for us, it isn't so much the money, it's creating barriers of
1:44:09
entry to try something that may be beneficial to, to our participants.
1:44:17
We don't want money to be a piece of, to, to be the, a part of that barrier.
1:44:22
If we had a partner barn that said, "It's not a barrier.
1:44:27
We have seven families that we, that have already been part of our network
1:44:33
that are willing to pay," we wouldn't say, "No, that's absolutely not working."
1:44:39
What we found is because people don't understand it
1:44:42
yet, they don't know about it.
1:44:45
They don't know enough about the value to, to put money to it, and they're so
1:44:50
stressed out about all these other things.
1:44:53
So I'm so- My
1:44:54
Rupert Isaacson: intuition tells me that you are right on the cusp
1:44:56
of the change point with that.
1:44:57
The
1:44:57
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: stigma- Yeah.
1:44:58
Yeah.
1:44:59
The, the stigma, so it's not about starting the program,
1:45:01
Rupert, it's about- Mm
1:45:02
getting people to the program.
1:45:04
There's so much stigma around this diagnosis.
1:45:07
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:45:08
People aren't going, "Oh- They don't want to give you the excuse â¦ I'm gonna go
1:45:10
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: identify myself-
1:45:12
Rupert Isaacson: Got it
1:45:12
â¦ Nancy Schier Anzelmo: that I have a, a memory problems."
1:45:15
Yeah.
1:45:15
Yeah.
1:45:15
And so that is part of why our mission- That makes sense â¦ is this way,
1:45:19
because they're not just like, "Hey."
1:45:21
But now we, we have seen a change in the last, you know, five, 10 years,
1:45:26
that people living with dementia are speaking, going out and- Well,
1:45:30
yeah â¦ being on boards and all that.
1:45:31
Yeah, yeah.
1:45:31
It's just starting where you were 15 years ago, and also- Exactly.
1:45:34
Rupert Isaacson: No, I hear you.
1:45:35
I hear you â¦ today.
1:45:36
Yeah, yeah.
1:45:36
Yeah.
1:45:37
When you're in the prototype phase, Exactly
1:45:39
yeah, it, it's a different dynamic.
1:45:40
Yeah.
1:45:40
But I, I have a feeling, my feeling is exactly what you just said, Nancy, that
1:45:44
we're right on the cusp of something different that- Yes â¦ as things
1:45:46
become ever more inclusive, I mean, that is, it's very easy to get depressed
1:45:50
about how society is going until one, you know, has these conversations.
1:45:53
Then you realize- Right â¦ oh, actually, no, maybe it's actually, you
1:45:56
know, many good things are happening.
1:45:57
And this is one of them.
1:45:58
If, if, if people are no longer feeling stigmatized-
1:46:02
Mm-hmm
1:46:03
â¦ then I think that, yeah- Y- wh- wh- and when something becomes economically
1:46:12
viable because people accept its value, it usually means that people have
1:46:17
accepted the values that it's addressing.
1:46:21
And that seems to be about where you're at.
1:46:23
It's quite exciting, this conversation.
1:46:25
You seem to be right on a, on a cusp here.
1:46:27
What I would- We are part of a- Go ahead.
1:46:29
Paula Hertel: Like, just one more thing.
1:46:30
We are part of a, a movement that has been quite active in Europe for a
1:46:35
while, but is starting to gain a fair amount of steam in the United States
1:46:39
called social prescribing, which is-
1:46:42
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
1:46:43
Paula Hertel: simply that, that the outcomes from social grassroots programs
1:46:51
like ours, like hiking like cooking together, like support groups, like
1:46:56
village models, actually can help improve traditional healthcare models outcomes.
1:47:03
And so, there is a, a group that we are a part of that is looking
1:47:09
at what, what do we measure in terms of outcomes that healthcare
1:47:16
systems will understand and value.
1:47:19
And so we're really excited about it.
1:47:22
We're, we're, we're part of an early pilot with Kaiser Permanente.
1:47:27
And we are part of this whole program that is looking at equine-assisted
1:47:32
services, at art, at music, at movement at, at social clubs, and healthcare,
1:47:40
that it, that they d- it doesn't have to be one or the other, that again,
1:47:44
health is this sort of broad continuum,
1:47:47
Rupert Isaacson: and it's- What do you know?
1:47:48
Human culture is good for humans.
1:47:51
Paula Hertel: Yeah.
1:47:51
It might not.
1:47:51
There's many paths in the forest.
1:47:54
So, so part of what we do is like, let's not push against
1:47:58
a system and say- Oh, yeah.
1:47:59
Yeah â¦ that's bad.
1:48:01
Yeah.
1:48:01
And instead of, let's be at the table and start the dialogue about the sort
1:48:06
of, you know, improv model of yes and, not, not no and not yes but.
1:48:12
But so it's yes and.
1:48:13
Yes, there's some really interesting clinical trials, and yes, there's some
1:48:18
longevity healthcare that, that Western healthcare that has really helped
1:48:23
people live longer and better lives, and there's these social prescribing
1:48:28
models that are, that are beneficial, that if we were collaborating together,
1:48:33
how beautiful that would be for humans.
1:48:36
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
1:48:36
C- yes.
1:48:37
The, the social prescribing can also enhance longevity.
1:48:41
Yes.
1:48:41
And that if you have longevity without social prescribing, the quality of life
1:48:46
may not be worth having those extra years.
1:48:48
Right.
1:48:48
Right.
1:48:49
Yeah.
1:48:49
So yeah, sitting, as you say, sitting in the corner with your
1:48:52
antidepressants is not an acceptable- Not living I would like to be part
1:49:00
of helping it go to the next stage.
1:49:02
So we, we talked about this in our preamble that we had the
1:49:05
other week, but also would like listeners and viewers to know this.
1:49:10
So our organization, New Trails Learning Systems, which is Horse Boy Method,
1:49:13
Movement Method, and Taking, we have every two years a neuroscience conference that
1:49:20
we're invited to do at Eastern Virginia Medical School which is old Vgi- Old
1:49:24
Dominion University in Virginia, their medical school, that they invite us to
1:49:28
come in and do a neuroscience conference.
1:49:30
And so we're talking '26, so that will be in September of this year.
1:49:37
But in '28 we will be looking for speakers.
1:49:41
It takes us two years to get them together, these things, and I
1:49:44
would very, very much like you guys to be coming and speaking there
1:49:49
because you're speaking to doctors.
1:49:51
Thank you.
1:49:51
The, the whole point about this conference is that we, i- it's
1:49:55
not just our own programs that the doctors end up prescribing.
1:49:59
We pull in as many others as we can find that we see are doing good things, and
1:50:03
we try to give a platform to, you know, rising tide lifts all ships, blah, blah.
1:50:09
But I think all of us have been kind of at this for-
1:50:15
Yeah
1:50:15
â¦ a couple of decades, and have seen the outcomes that we've seen.
1:50:20
And, you know, you know how it was one of the reasons I, I do this show is
1:50:25
that when I first got into this, all the programs were incredibly vicious and
1:50:31
fragmented and jealous of each other, and worried, coming from the scarcity
1:50:34
mentality that if your organization got money, then my organization might
1:50:38
not get money, and blah, blah, blah.
1:50:39
And I was very depressed by this when I first came in, 'cause
1:50:43
I came in as a, as a parent.
1:50:45
And I was like, "Wow, you guys don't give a shit about, you know, you just
1:50:49
give a shit about getting this money.
1:50:51
And maybe you started with this good, but right now youâ¦
1:50:54
and now you're trash-talking each other, and how's, how's
1:50:57
this helping people like my son?"
1:50:58
You know?
1:50:58
Now, it's gotten a lot better.
1:51:01
We've still got a little ways to go.
1:51:02
And I think that if we're gonna be taken seriously by the medical establishment
1:51:06
and so on, we need to stop bickering.
1:51:08
Mm-hmm.
1:51:09
Okay, the doctors bicker amongst themselves, and academia
1:51:12
bickers among the therapists.
1:51:13
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
1:51:14
But we need to bicker less, and we certainly need to bicker
1:51:17
less loudly and less obviously.
1:51:20
Because of course what started with a lot of a very opinionated people in
1:51:25
horse barns, and we know that horsey people are very opinionated people,
1:51:28
including myself, guilty as charged.
1:51:30
But that's really immature behavior when it comes to the responsibilities that
1:51:36
we end up bearing for the populations we end up working with and representing.
1:51:40
We just can't do that anymore.
1:51:42
And- â¦ you know what I mean?
1:51:43
So, so I- Well,
1:51:44
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: we, in the past barns, all of those barns that are
1:51:47
therapeutic or EGALA, either one, we ask the same question, "Why do
1:51:51
you only serve children or adults?
1:51:54
Why don't you serve older adults?"
1:51:55
It's a huge segment of our population that's growing and
1:51:59
growing with the boomers aging.
1:52:01
Yes, it's
1:52:01
Rupert Isaacson: true.
1:52:01
It is, yeah.
1:52:01
Why would
1:52:02
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: we not be serving older adults as well-
1:52:04
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
1:52:05
â¦ Nancy Schier Anzelmo: in a, in a place that's already established
1:52:07
to serve children and adults?
1:52:07
And don't you think it might be good for
1:52:08
Rupert Isaacson: those little autistic kids that are coming
1:52:10
through- Exactly â¦ to have a grandma and a grandpa in the program?
1:52:13
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Right.
1:52:13
Right.
1:52:13
Have all 10 of them.
1:52:14
Bring the village back together.
1:52:16
Yeah, absolutely.
1:52:16
That's, that's where our question is still there to your listeners,
1:52:19
like, "Why wouldn't we serve?"
1:52:20
"Oh, it's scary," or, "They might fall," orâ¦
1:52:23
Well, anyone can, but they're already set up for that, so it
1:52:26
seems like a pretty good fit to us.
1:52:29
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
1:52:29
And so much of that is of course to do with how you prepare your horses and how
1:52:33
you prepare- Right â¦ your environment and all of the above things which I know
1:52:36
that you guys go into in your training.
1:52:38
But yes, I, I think too because therapeutic riding started either
1:52:43
with kids or with people returning from the war, which is, you know,
1:52:48
when it boomed after World War II, it was mostly people coming back either
1:52:52
with shell shock or missing limbs.
1:52:55
And the missing limbs people without shell shock just wanted to ride, perhaps
1:52:59
they had been riders, and then it became about adaptive riding, therapeutic riding.
1:53:03
And then the people with shell shock, people saw, okay, there's
1:53:05
a mental, emotional component here, et cetera, and it sort of
1:53:09
went in those two different ways.
1:53:11
But I think so much of it, and then, and then it- riding for the disabled
1:53:15
in the UK was sort of aligned with Pony Club, so it just automatically ended
1:53:20
up going for a younger population.
1:53:23
All of that is totally understandable chronologically and historically, but
1:53:26
as you say, have we not developed?
1:53:28
Have we not
1:53:29
Are we still stuck in 1975?
1:53:32
I don't think so.
1:53:32
You know.
1:53:33
And in fact, it's the people from 1975 that we should be serving.
1:53:36
That's
1:53:36
right.
1:53:36
Yeah.
1:53:36
So, I, I find your work really exciting.
1:53:39
Look, we've hit the two-hour mark, and I think what most people
1:53:43
are, are going to be thinking is, "Okay, guys, we're convinced.
1:53:47
How do we find out about it?"
1:53:48
You know.
1:53:48
So, how do we contact Nancy and Paula for a training?
1:53:52
What do we need to do?
1:53:53
Just give us the plugs.
1:53:56
Paula Hertel: Yeah, I mean, the easiest thing to do is go to the website.
1:53:59
It's all on there, which is connectedhorse.org.
1:54:02
And you can email us, it's paula@connectedhorse.org
1:54:05
or nancy@connectedhorse.org.
1:54:07
It's probably the two best things.
1:54:09
But we have our workshops, we have a sensory engagement program, which
1:54:15
is bringing the barn to people, and we have our training institute.
1:54:18
So those are the three platforms that you'll find on the website.
1:54:23
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:54:23
Now, that's of course sitting, people sitting California, my friend Joelle's
1:54:27
sitting in California, you're in California, Kansas City in California.
1:54:30
I'm actually talking to you from Spain, and a lot of people will be listening, you
1:54:33
know, from Croatia or Korea or wherever.
1:54:36
Mm-hmm.
1:54:36
So if people are not in the US and not in your hood how are
1:54:40
they gonna engage with this?
1:54:43
Paula Hertel: Well, the training, we have online training, and Nancy leads
1:54:47
a monthly coaching call, which is really bringing all the facilitators
1:54:51
together, and it's peer-to-peer learning, which is a beautiful group of people
1:54:56
that we affectionately call our herd.
1:54:58
Mm-hmm â¦ and so that's an opportunity.
1:55:01
And we are really committed to working with people across the globe, and I
1:55:06
think being at the Alzheimer's Disease International Conference with 60 countries
1:55:11
represented was a wake-up call for all of us to just realize that it is,
1:55:18
it is the collective, like you said.
1:55:20
Like, we, we can get so siloed, and that doesn't help anybody, and so how
1:55:25
do we continue having the conversation?
1:55:27
And so let's keep talking.
1:55:29
We have colleagues in Australia, and we have, now have you in
1:55:32
Spain, and a bit of Germany.
1:55:35
Rupert Isaacson: And
1:55:36
Paula Hertel: London.
1:55:36
And we have people in the UK.
1:55:38
And so, we're a very creative group of people that will figure
1:55:42
out how to, how to work with you.
1:55:44
Rupert Isaacson: Very good.
1:55:44
I think so listen, lads, that's a- a- addressing viewers and listeners,
1:55:49
so it's connectedhorse.org.
1:55:51
That's, there's no hyphen in there, there's no underscore in there.
1:55:54
Connected horse.
1:55:56
Amazing that that URL actually still existed.
1:55:58
You'd have thought someone would've had that 20 years ago.
1:56:00
Connectedhorse.org.
1:56:02
They can contact you there for figuring out their online trainings.
1:56:06
They can also come to you for you know, live workshops if they
1:56:10
get, if they can come stateside.
1:56:12
Does it have to be California, or you do them around the US?
1:56:15
Paula Hertel: We've done California, Nevada, and West Virginia.
1:56:19
So we try to do one or two a year where people come, can come from
1:56:24
anywhere to come participate.
1:56:25
Can
1:56:26
Rupert Isaacson: they, can you accommodate quite a large group of people, or
1:56:28
are these quite small workshops?
1:56:30
Paula Hertel: I think 20 is the biggest we've done.
1:56:31
20.
1:56:33
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:56:35
I'm also just wondering if, yeah, if you, you might wanna come and do one
1:56:38
attached to one of the ones I'm doing.
1:56:40
'Cause I'm, I'm frequently in, like I'll be in next month doing
1:56:44
a bunch of trainings in Michigan, Chicago, Indianapolis area, which
1:56:48
is quite a good area 'cause it's, you know, it's very central.
1:56:51
Mm-hmm.
1:56:51
I'll be back, I'll be over in New England in in the fall.
1:56:54
I know Kansas and I are gonna do stuff in, in California in the spring.
1:56:58
But I think it, what might be really nice sometimes is sometimes as part
1:57:03
of another training- Mm-hmm â¦ you know, I could say, "Oh, listen, there's
1:57:07
actually these really cool ladies over here that are doing this stuff with
1:57:10
this other population, which I think you might benefit from knowing about.
1:57:14
So maybe you could come in and do like a, a sample thing or a
1:57:18
demo or-" Yeah â¦ Zoom in, you know, when we're doing something.
1:57:22
I think it, I think we guys need, we just need to be collaborating
1:57:25
much more in this way.
1:57:26
Great â¦ you know, w- Great.
1:57:27
Thank you â¦ when, when I'm training people in my methods, I'm always
1:57:30
saying, "Don't just do my method.
1:57:31
You know, do a bunch."
1:57:33
Mm-hmm.
1:57:33
'Cause a whole bunch of tools, right?
1:57:37
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Absolutely.
1:57:38
More tools in the toolbox to help people.
1:57:40
Mm-hmm.
1:57:42
Rupert Isaacson: And that, that's a- So we're open to
1:57:43
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: that, Rupert.
1:57:43
Thank you for this opportunity to be on your podcast today and be able to
1:57:48
talk about this innovative program.
1:57:50
It doesn't feel new to us.
1:57:51
It's, we're in year, oh, 11 now, but, but we have really been kind of,
1:57:56
we're very tenacious, and we fight, and we want to be, this program to
1:58:01
be everywhere across the globe- Yeah
1:58:04
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: to help
1:58:04
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: people.
1:58:04
And that is- I'd like- â¦ what keeps us going
1:58:06
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: I'd like to see you at the HETI conferences
1:58:08
and that, that sort of thing.
1:58:09
I th- I think it, it's needed.
1:58:11
It's, it's, it's about time.
1:58:12
Yes.
1:58:12
Thank you â¦ I, I will see if I can pull some strings.
1:58:15
Yeah.
1:58:16
Okay.
1:58:16
We, we
1:58:16
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: appreciate you.
1:58:17
Thanks.
1:58:17
This was fun.
1:58:18
Rupert Isaacson: Well, likewise.
1:58:19
Thank you for letting us tell
1:58:19
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: this,
1:58:20
Paula Hertel: tell our story.
1:58:21
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: Thank you very much.
1:58:22
Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's absolutely my pleasure.
1:58:24
I think what we should also do is do this again.
1:58:27
So maybe in 12 months or so, come on the show again, and I'd
1:58:31
like to know where it's gone, you know, what more has come out.
1:58:36
Because I, I think this is something that doesn't, we shouldn't do as one and done.
1:58:39
Oh, that was the old people episode, you know?
1:58:42
Yeah,
1:58:42
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: exactly.
1:58:43
Do you know what I
1:58:43
Rupert Isaacson: mean?
1:58:44
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: We're all the old people.
1:58:45
We're getting there too.
1:58:47
So exactly.
1:58:48
Rupert Isaacson: Gray hairs.
1:58:49
We need to
1:58:49
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: look at the whole population and serving everyone.
1:58:53
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:58:54
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: You know?
1:58:55
Yeah In different
1:58:56
Rupert Isaacson: programs.
1:58:56
And it's hilarious, isn't it, 'cause, I mean, most of the people running
1:58:58
the larger programs out there are usually now in their 60s, you know?
1:59:03
Yeah.
1:59:04
Because, you know, you, you, you need to have been around for a while before
1:59:07
you, you, you can, and now they're all looking towards their last- Yeah
1:59:11
if they're lucky, four decades.
1:59:12
Exactly.
1:59:12
Yeah.
1:59:13
Paula Hertel: Better for all of us.
1:59:14
Yeah.
1:59:14
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
1:59:15
Paula Hertel: Right.
1:59:17
Rupert Isaacson: All right, my friends.
1:59:17
Well, thank you so much.
1:59:18
All right.
1:59:19
Thank you.
1:59:19
Connectedhorse.org.
1:59:21
Contact Paula, contact Nancy.
1:59:24
Let them give you their technologies.
1:59:29
All right, my friends.
1:59:30
Nancy Schier Anzelmo: All right.
1:59:31
See you.
1:59:31
Thank you.
1:59:31
Thank you.
1:59:32
Bye.
1:59:33
Bye-bye.
1:59:33
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