Latest / FDD Morning Brief / The FBI's war on terror financing | feat. Lara Burns

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The FBI's war on terror financing | feat. Lara Burns · FDD Morning Brief

• 0:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, good morning, it's Friday, September 24th, not 24th, just the fourth, I'm getting ahead of myself.
• 0:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: The multi-front war in the Middle East is now 1,063 days old, but hey, who's counting?
• 0:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm your host Jonathan Schanzer, welcome back to the FKD morning brief.
• 0:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: The Israeli military announced yesterday that it finally cleaned up by his volatile beneath the Ali Tahir ridge in southern Lebanon.
• 0:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: The Aryan question is near the town of Navatia and South Lebanon.
• 0:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was believed to be the nerve center of the terror group's butter unit Brigade, which is traditionally fought in southern Lebanon just south of the Latani river.
• 0:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: The Israelis reportedly killed a handful of his ballyas and prepared for the tunnel for destruction.
• 0:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: as he is really slowly but surely claw back territory that should theoretically fall under the control of the Lebanese armed forces the laugh.
• 1:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Meanwhile, Israel has returned five Lebanese citizens in a deal with the Lebanese government.
• 1:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't see how this makes the laugh more capable in terms of holding Lebanese territory, but I guess we'll find out
• 1:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: separate from all of that, keep an eye on the Iranian regime, which announced that it would strike at Israel in response to operations, just like the one we just discussed here, so is the war about to widen again?
• 1:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: We'll find out soon, I suppose, but for now, a little quiet.
• 1:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: None of the people are talking about the visit by Chinese leader Xi Jinping to Egypt earlier this week.
• 1:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: The visit was barely covered here at home, but let's face facts.
• 1:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: The Chinese are muscling in on American turf.
• 1:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: American taxpayers fork over $1.3 billion a year to Cairo.
• 1:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Much of that is spent on American weapons, but that money is really designed to keep the peace.
• 1:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: that America brokered between Israel and Egypt back in 1978.
• 1:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: But have the camp David Accords held?
• 1:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: We all know that Hamas armed up for ten seven by smuggling weapons through the Japan-controlled Sinai Peninsula, which sits right on Gaza's border.
• 2:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Cairo never paid a price.
• 2:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: More recently, the Egyptians have been corded by the Pakistanis, the Saudis, and the Turks for their new defense alliance.
• 2:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: The Egyptians have not said yes,
• 2:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: But they haven't said no, either.
• 2:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: And to be clear, this science is not just about mutual defense against Iranian missiles.
• 2:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: These Sunni states are all looking side-eyed at Israel and they're weighing a military confrontation, which brings us to this deal with China.
• 2:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: The Chinese are dangling data centers in AI assistance.
• 2:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Egypt could have easily gotten this from American companies, but they didn't.
• 2:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: They chose our great power competitor.
• 2:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: I can't say if Egypt is defecting from the US alliance, but it's clear they are hedging.
• 2:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Are we okay with this?
• 2:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not.
• 2:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'd like to see a brush-back pitch, high and tight from Washington.
• 2:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Will we see one?
• 2:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's on Donald Trump over to you, Mr. President.
• 2:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: not for your headlines headline one we covered this ever so briefly on Wednesday but it really does deserve a little bit more airtime so here goes rusha is helping a run develop it's supersonic cruise missile capabilities of financial times investigation found that mosque out started this tech transfer business back in twenty twenty three rusha state arms exporter is overseeing the project with help from a rocket design group that's under u.s. sanctions
• 3:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: The goal is to develop technology that will allow cruise missiles to barrel toward American targets at multiple times the speed of sound.
• 3:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: We have a much more difficult time shooting these project dials down compared to some of the other weapons that Iran has fired over the last several months.
• 3:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's really the point.
• 3:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: If this project succeeds, it's bad news for American bases, American servicemen, and American allies.
• 3:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: And line two, remember the Gossip Float Tila?
• 3:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's back.
• 3:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Leaders from the so-called Breda Freedom Float Tila Coalition says that the group is planning to set sail once again and arriving Gaza by October.
• 4:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're going to embark from Europe and make several pit stops along the way.
• 4:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: A reminder here that these float Tila idiots have been trying to break Israel's legal blockade of Gaza.
• 4:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: For 16 years, not once has one of these ships delivered anything of value to the people of Gaza, this is activism, playing it simple, it's virtual, signaling, playing it simple, and here we go again, idiots who claim to be peace activists selling straight into a complicated conflict zone.
• 4:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, seriously booked, what could possibly go wrong?
• 4:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: headline three declassified Canadian intelligence indicates that Ottawa awarded an Iranian agent over $2 million in Canadian government contracts.
• 4:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Here's the scoop of 45-year-old businessmen from Edmonton, Alberta.
• 4:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: was going by the name of Saul Galfore, except he was actually Muhammad Reza, Gafore Farad, the son of Iran's former vice president and an agent for Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps.
• 4:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: He reportedly helped the IRGC and the Iranian military with weapons, procurement and R&D.
• 5:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: He traveled to Iran in 2015 to meet with Iran's intelligence ministry, Canadian immigration flagged the guy's file in 2017.
• 5:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: but the Royal Canadian mounted police and the Department of National Defense still awarded this guy's company's millions of dollars in Canadian contracts.
• 5:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Come on, Mounties, you got to do better.
• 5:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Check these guys into the boards.
• 5:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Would you use a little hockey part of us just to get them fired up?
• 5:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right, it's now time for the main event to these guests is Laura Burns, a retired FBI special agent who spent 23 years leading major terrorism investigations.
• 5:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Earlier in a career, Laura led the Justice Department's largest terrifying ants in case ever brought.
• 5:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: The United States is versus the Holy Land Foundation.
• 5:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: This put some of Hamas's top American fundraisers behind bars.
• 5:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: It also inspired, oh, I don't know, a couple of,
• 5:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Terrafinance guys to join the treasury department including yours truly.
• 6:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: That was the case that got me there Found it really kind of inspiring.
• 6:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, Lara went on to supervise international counterterrorism investigations out of the FBI's Dallas office before retiring in 2023 She now serves as head of terrorism research at George Washington's program on extremism So without further ado, let's bring Lara on to the show
• 6:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the FTD Morning Brief Laura Burns.
• 6:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Good morning.
• 6:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for having me and thrilled to be here.
• 6:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's great to have you.
• 6:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
• 6:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: So let's talk about the case that you are perhaps best known for.
• 6:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: It is the Holy Land Foundation case, HLF as we call it in the biz.
• 6:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: So HLF was the largest terrifying ants in case in history.
• 6:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: We broke up about $12 million from that mistake in $12 million terror finance scheme.
• 6:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was Hamas.
• 6:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was back in the year 2000.
• 6:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Tell us about the case.
• 6:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, as you said, it was the OJ's largest terrorism financing case.
• 7:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was the prosecution of one of the original U.S. based Hamas front organizations here in the United States, whose purpose was to raise money here and funnel it to the Hamas terrorist organization in Gaza and the West Bank.
• 7:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: That organization operated from about 1988 until 2001 when itself was designated as a terrorist organization and would go on to be charged and five of its officers convicted of providing material support to Hamas in 2008.
• 7:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's the right outcome that we're looking for.
• 7:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we'll talk about that in a minute.
• 7:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: But there was a moment during the time that you're tracking this terrorist organization slash terrifying anti apparatus.
• 7:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a meeting that takes place.
• 7:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: I believe it was in 1993 in the greatest city in America, Philadelphia.
• 7:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, you knew that.
• 7:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: I know you're from Dallas, but we should talk about the cowboys and the, you know, and the Eagles at another point.
• 8:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, they have this meeting in 1993.
• 8:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: It is probably one of the most talked about meetings of Hamas and its well fellow travelers that ever took place in the United States.
• 8:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's sort of, I mean, it's famous now.
• 8:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: So tell us about that meeting and what was discussed.
• 8:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that meeting is key to understanding the agenda of hummus in America.
• 8:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: The reason we know so much about the meeting is because the FBI was there in wire tap the entire meeting.
• 8:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then the transcript and the audio recordings the meeting were made public at the HLF trial.
• 8:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: But at that meeting, key leaders of the US-based Hamas network convened to discuss how they were going to proceed to continue to support Hamas while the seeding US government and avoiding detection by law enforcement authorities, right?
• 9:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so they held this meeting for two and a half days, and they discussed their foreign agenda, and they discussed a domestic agenda.
• 9:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: all of which were geared towards the provision of support to Hamas under the cloak of something else in order to, you know, appear legitimate, operate under the cloak of charity, operate under the cloak of, you know, freedom of speech, operate under the cloak of civil rights, do these things lie to the Americans but continue despite any, you know, hurdles in their play or in their way to support Hamas.
• 9:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they identified exactly how they were going to do that, and then they said in motion the items on their agenda and there is evidence that that conspiracy although began, you know, decades ago continues today.
• 9:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's pretty crazy.
• 9:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: I gotta ask you out one organization in particular that was represented there.
• 9:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we hear about them a lot.
• 9:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is the Council on American Islamic Relations.
• 10:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they were identified in that case as an unindicted co-conspirator.
• 10:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: which, and I got to tell you, I mean, this continues to come up all the time with me.
• 10:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: The people are saying, well, isn't care about an actor?
• 10:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: They were unindicted co-conspirators.
• 10:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Doesn't that make them just as culpable as, you know, the Holy Lion Foundation or the five individuals that went to jail as a result of the investigation that you led?
• 10:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, but then there are those to say, well, okay, well, yeah, unindicted means unindicted, which means, you know, nothing to, nothing to see here and, you know, like moving on, right?
• 10:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: So how do you describe what it means that this organization was identified as an unindicted code conspirator?
• 10:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: And what does that mean today?
• 10:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, I identify care as a component of the U.S. based Hamas network in federal trial in 2008.
• 10:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: And let's be clear about, you know, what happened in that trial?
• 10:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: There were multiple challenges.
• 11:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Evidentiary challenges by the defense team.
• 11:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Ultimately, there were convictions in that.
• 11:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: And in the fifth circuit, examine the evidence and the trial record and affirm the conviction.
• 11:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: So,
• 11:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: The evidence that was presented at that trial that indicated that here was a component of this network, it's uncontested.
• 11:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: The defense attempted to contest it, but a jury of 12 found, in fact, that the H1F and five of its officers were guilty and the records stands today.
• 11:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: In reality, at this 1993 Philadelphia meeting that you and I talked about where the conspiracy was solidified.
• 11:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: one of the items on these co-conspirators agenda was to create a new front organization in Washington, D.C. that would serve to defend the rest of the network when he was scrutinized
• 11:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: CARE did not exist at that point, but guess who did?
• 11:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: The two co-founders of CARE.
• 11:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Omar Maud and the Haudawat.
• 12:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Omar Maud led the 1993 Philadelphia meeting, and the Haudawat was a primary speaker when they sat in motion the conspiracies conspiracy to support Hamas and lie to Americans and create a front organization in Washington, D.C. that they would use to hide what
• 12:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: two of the participants who were at the time leading the original U.S. based Hamas propaganda front moved over and co-founded care.
• 12:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I mean, you put it that way and it sounds pretty bad for them.
• 12:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and Neha Dawat is, of course, still he's at the helm, right?
• 12:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Is he not at care to this day?
• 12:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: And he is at the helm today.
• 12:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: He was at the Philadelphia meeting involved in the conspirator
• 12:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: understood the conspiratorial agenda and the items that they were supposed to that substantial steps they were supposed to take in programs of that conspiracy.
• 12:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then moved on to actually participate in those substantial steps by creating this run-all business.
• 13:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: So just one more question about this and I promise you I'll move on.
• 13:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it is sort of one of those things.
• 13:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: It just it's a constant irritant when when people talk about this, the fact that it was unindicted.
• 13:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: The fact that it was outside of the scope of the people that went to jail, the people that had to pay a price, why did they get a free pass?
• 13:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, that's a really complicated question, and I think that what we must all remember is that this case was really the first of its kind and it was the biggest that it's kind.
• 13:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: And there were a lot of factors that went into who was originally charged in the original indictment, right?
• 13:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: and have that phase go first and then attack the rest of the network once that case successfully resolved.
• 14:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: There are a number of factors that go into governmental decisions on whether to charge someone with material support.
• 14:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: And those decisions don't just revolve around the
• 14:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: They revolve around, you know, the implications to, you know, classified information.
• 14:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: They revolve around, you know, discover issues.
• 14:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: They revolve around strategic decisions and policy decisions.
• 14:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, you cannot, it is just because an entity was not indicted in that case.
• 14:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Does not mean there wasn't sufficient evidence to convict them.
• 14:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: What it does mean is they were not charged and they were not convicted.
• 14:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's just a decision undertaken by the FBI and the Department of Justice, not relating to necessarily evidence, not relating to culpability, but just simply other factors that prompted you to make that call.
• 14:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: And now we live with it, right?
• 14:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: We just continue to talk about care as an unadded, co-conspirator and there's nothing we can do about it, and they sue anybody that goes after them talking to them about.
• 15:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: making allegations of terrorism support.
• 15:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Doesn't sound like exactly the way that you want to hear justice carried out, but okay, we'll leave it there for now.
• 15:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Tell us about those that did face justice at the end of the day.
• 15:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: You put five people behind bars, correct?
• 15:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's threat.
• 15:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Tell us about them.
• 15:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: So they, well, and, you know, we have a talk about that the, the prequel to the Holy Lim Foundation prosecution, but there was a related company called InfoCom set across the street from the HLF that was run by leaders of the, the, the hummus propaganda front, the IAP, and also leaders of the HLF.
• 15:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: It set quietly across the street, but the FBI actually rated that entity a few days before 9-11, 2001 on terrorism charges on on probably possibly that they were dealing in the funds, especially designated terrorists and shipping to state sponsors of terrorism.
• 16:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Those individuals, the Alashi brothers that we call them, were charged and convicted in that matter.
• 16:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: And those individuals were cousins of Hamas leader, Moose Abu Marzut.
• 16:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: One of those individuals was also charged in the HLF prosecution, along with four other Hamas or HLF leaders, and were convicted in that case.
• 16:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Two of the individuals convicted in the H.L.F.
• 16:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: matter, she grab a boxer who was the head of the H.L.F.
• 16:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: and Kassana Lashi, who was a leader within the H.L.F.
• 16:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: and also ran infocom, received 65 years sentences.
• 16:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: Those are significant sentences in a terrorism financing case, and the judges, you know, comments you're in a sensing hearing, I think are very compelling, those transcripts,
• 16:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: are available for people to, you know, obtain and read because the judge set through the trial and heard the evidence and he was very compelled by what he heard in issued 65 years since.
• 17:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, the other three defendants have served their time.
• 17:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: They had lesser sentences and had been released.
• 17:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: One of them was the original chairman of the board of the Holy Lim Foundation, Muhammad al-Bazayn.
• 17:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: He served his time and was deported to Turkey because he didn't have immigration status here.
• 17:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: and the other two Moothinabla Carter, and I have the Romano Day finish their sentences and happen with us.
• 17:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 17:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they continue to be celebrated by Hamas and its fellow travelers and you mentioned Turkey, there's a huge cadre of Hamas guys that are still based there right now.
• 17:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: It continues to serve as an external headquarters for Hamas.
• 17:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: And at the same time, they're a NATO ally, which drives me nuts to no end.
• 17:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: But okay, let's talk for just a minute about this question.
• 17:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Is this ancient history?
• 17:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, a lot of people would say, Lara Burns, great work, but hey, this stuff doesn't matter anymore.
• 17:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it happened, you know, quarter of a century ago, why are we still talking about this?
• 18:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Are there lessons that we can derive from this episode today or their things that we can still use in our battle against Hamas or against other terrorist organizations today?
• 18:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let this history is extremely important in understanding a lot of the things that we're seeing here at our country today.
• 18:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: It is not irrelevant.
• 18:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the people that say it's irrelevant are either unimpulmed.
• 18:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: or they are individuals that are part of this network who are driving a pro-Homassage into here that wants you to believe that it's historical and irrelevant.
• 18:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: It is not irrelevant.
• 18:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: When you look at an it's T-Li-Kamas, you can't look at one event in isolation.
• 18:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is a terrorist network that began its operations in 1987.
• 18:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: It began using resources from US soil.
• 18:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: almost instantaneously from when it was created and continue to do that after the Philadelphia meeting continue to do that after Hamas was designated continue to do that after the HLF and five of its officers were convicted.
• 19:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Understanding the history is necessary to connect the dots to individuals and entities that are operating in the U.S. today, seemingly doing the same thing and continuing the very conspiracy that began way back in 1988.
• 19:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, I didn't know I were going to name names.
• 19:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Who you talking about when you say that these people are still running around?
• 19:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: care and the hotdog for one.
• 19:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they're, you know, they're a civil litigation out there.
• 19:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: So let's let just let me clarify the Hamas propaganda front your original one.
• 19:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: The IAP was identified in the HLF trial.
• 19:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was not charged.
• 19:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was however sued in civil litigation in federal court and found to be liable.
• 19:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: for the death of a U.S. teenager in Israel who was murdered by Hamas, because it was found to have a finance Hamas during that time.
• 20:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that organization shut down, rather than pay the damages for the death of that child.
• 20:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, a little bit of time pass and a couple of blocks away, the individuals that were running the IEP moved over and now run an organization called the American Muslims were Palestine, which is a 501.C3.
• 20:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: eerily has many of the same staff members that were involved in the IAP, the UASR, the HLF, the three original Hamas fronts, and has the same annual conferences at the IAP used to do, and has a newspaper with a different name.
• 20:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're a similar activities to the original public end of front, and it, in fact, has been sued as the alter ego of the original Hamas propaganda front, and that case will go to trial and February of 2020.
• 20:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that's going to be a big one, but I think let's just clarify one other thing.
• 20:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: AMP, American Muslims for Palestine, this organization that you just talked about.
• 21:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're either nine different people.
• 21:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: They were previously associated with Hamas charities that moved over to this organization.
• 21:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think it is probably most notable here to just point out that
• 21:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: AMP was the organization that created students for justice and Palestine.
• 21:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so when you look at all these actors that have been out on college campuses, all of the encampments and the like, you actually can see some of the individuals from AMP, from the, you know, from the Holy Land trial days, people that are sitting there, holding the megaphone, exhorting these kids to go out and engage in all of the disruptive behavior
• 21:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: in those first couple of months of this war and in some cases dragged on for quite some time.
• 21:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: So no, this is not ancient history, right?
• 21:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're still talking about a lot of the same people.
• 21:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: They were juniors back then, probably not worthy of arrest, and now look where they are.
• 22:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I mean, they have come a long way because they were left to operate undeturned on US soil for 20 years almost.
• 22:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it is, it is very relevant.
• 22:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: And as you said, you know, in 2010, the AMP and S.J.P.
• 22:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: announced their alliance and their invigoration of their student activism, which they really kicked off.
• 22:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: around that time period and that was left again undeterred until, you know, people woke up after October 7th and we're like, where is all this hate and advocacy for violence on our camps is coming from?
• 22:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: But to your point, you know, the leader, the executive director of the A&P Osama Abu Arshan.
• 22:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: who worked with two of the original three Hamas crimes and now is the executive director of the AMP stood at a student protest on George Washington University's campus in 2024 and said, we're going to take back this campus, like we're going to take back this country, like we're taking back housing, that scares me.
• 22:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't like it either.
• 23:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Testified about it as I think you have as well.
• 23:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we're still tracking this same network years on.
• 23:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, you know, game of whack a mole or something.
• 23:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's just never, never over.
• 23:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
• 23:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: I do want to ask you, as a former FBI agent, how do you assess the threat level today?
• 23:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: In the United States from terrorist organizations, just writ large, and how do you think the FBI is handling this load?
• 23:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: It feels like a pretty fraught moment.
• 23:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of extremism in this country.
• 23:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: I know it's not all external terrorist type activity.
• 23:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's also domestic extremists here at home that the FBI has to contend with.
• 23:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I guess my question is, you know, as just someone who was in the system that can now, well, you have the luxury of being on the outside looking and how are we doing?
• 23:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Are you worried?
• 23:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think the threat landscape has been worse than it is today, and that is, you know, for a lot of reasons, not the least of which are, you know, nefarious foreign powers that aren't even limited to dearish organizations are all driving the same messaging and with the, you know, the use of social media that messaging racist reaches millions of people and that messaging is, you know,
• 24:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: anti-Western values, anti-US sentiment, anti-Semitic sentiment.
• 24:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Proviolence, right?
• 24:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Political violence.
• 24:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever your grievance is, violence is an appropriate solution to address it.
• 24:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right?
• 24:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's okay to want to, you know, harm someone because what they look like or who they worship or how they worship or where they come from.
• 24:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: That messaging has never been louder, and so in addition to the fact that we have extremist groups that span or that you span the spectrum from right-wing to left-wing, right?
• 24:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: We have all of those threat groups.
• 24:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Then we have the messaging that is constant, nonstop, and driven by our foreign adversaries that, yes.
• 25:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, this good violence is necessary.
• 25:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we're seeing an uptick of seeing a result of it with the violence that is becoming more and more prevalent on our streets and our soil today.
• 25:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't indie those in the FBI because it's an overwhelming task when you have literally used to back in the day after 9-11, you know, you knew which threat groups you could identify them and prioritize who posed
• 25:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's not so easy today, because it's like they're all posing in a threat.
• 25:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the rhetoric, the rhetoric, though, is what we are underestimating, fundamentally underestimating the power of this rhetoric, just so, so much discord in this country and, you know, inspire violence by individuals sitting in their basement on their computer that are undetectable, right?
• 25:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then they go out and they get in their car and they drive over people.
• 26:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I worry, and I worry, frankly, more than the violence, the rhetoric is what scares me because in my opinion, what we're seeing is a form of ideological subversion where foreign actors, where there be Hamas, whether it be the Muslim brotherhood, whether it be Iran, whether it be China, whether it be Russia, or driving false narratives in such a fashion
• 26:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: for people in the United States to understand truth and reality from fact or from fiction.
• 26:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And when, you know, that happens to a certain level, the ideological subversion is obtained.
• 26:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that is when the fabric of our society begins to erode.
• 26:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I can't I couldn't agree more.
• 26:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: I do feel like this cognitive warfare that is being waged by foreign actors, some by the way, major Hamas supporters, the Qataris, the Iranians.
• 26:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, they're part of this.
• 26:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, the Chinese are part of this, but this is a huge part of the landscape.
• 27:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Something you're going to hear more about on this program and from FPD scholars,
• 27:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Look, Laura Burns, want to thank you for all that you've done in defending our country for trying to put hummus behind bars.
• 27:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: We should probably just give a shout out to the rest of the FBI.
• 27:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: You say they're underwater right now.
• 27:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think they are.
• 27:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're doing the Lord's work out there.
• 27:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: And man, it's not easy.
• 27:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we're gonna wish them the best.
• 27:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: But at the meantime, hope you'll come back.
• 27:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for joining us today on the FD morning brief.
• 27:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much.
• 27:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Wow, just like that shows over.
• 27:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so is this week.
• 27:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's been it year this week has.
• 27:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, I hope everybody has a restful weekend.
• 27:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: The FD morning brief is off for Labor Day because even crazed work, a hallics got us low down every so often.
• 27:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Here's the good news.
• 27:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you're itching for more smart stuff to read, ahead of Wednesdays episode, you know what to do.
• 27:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Head on over to our website, FDG.org from the latest from our experts.
• 27:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: And replace that doom scrolling with smart scrolling,
• 28:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: by visiting our social media channels, you know, Instagram, X, Facebook, LinkedIn, we do all of those.
• 28:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if you're a fan of tax-aductible donations as I am, you can always make one over at fdd.org slash invest.
• 28:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for keeping our lights on, folks.
• 28:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: We appreciate you.
• 28:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: We really do.
• 28:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Enjoy the long weekend.
• 28:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: See you next Wednesday.
• 28:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Jonathan Shanzer as always, signing off for FD.