Latest / Todd's World / Is Abraham More Merciful Than God? | Genesis 18
Transcript
- Todd: but it's a it's a strange passage because in a way Abraham almost comes off more merciful than God. Do you know what I mean? It's like it's it's a little odd. Don't you think? Yo, it's Carrie: It is. I think it's yes, I think it's I think it's such a sweet I I love this. I I yeah, I just love this because it's so well it there's a sweetness in it, probably thinking about his nephew, but there's also this just sense of justice. Like he I think he just wants to understand wait a minute, Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: God, like help me understand this. And Todd: Yeah. Welcome everyone to Beers with Jesus, Todd's World. Carrie's with me. I'm Todd. We're here every week at Beers with Jesus. Right, Carrie? Every week. Yo, it's Carrie: Todd's world. Carrie's me. I'm every week at Beers with Jesus. Are you Carrie? Gang Gang. Todd: We're talking Gen Z slang, 'cause you know, Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: we're Gen X, but we've got some Gen Z kids. Yo, it's Carrie: Gen ZQ. We do. And we're like we're cool enough, Gen well, Gen X is cool enough to do whatever they want, honestly, but yeah. No, happy October. Happy October. I'm excited. Todd: Gang gang. Yeah, it is. First first show of October. Listen, guys, we we do the wildly opinionated news hour and we do Beers with Jesus. Beers with Jesus we do every week. This is our off week for the wildly opinionated news hour. So if you but still last week's was great. Honest to God, you Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: go back, listen, I would call them evergreen. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Last year or last year. Last week was kind of general topics more than current events. It was fun. Todd: Yeah, last week was a was a great show. You know the one thing, and I'm not gonna get into this from a news standpoint as much, but Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: you know what I became aware of this week and I wasn't when we did news last week, Yo, it's Carrie: okay. Todd: was this whole kerfuffle with this Cornell seven thing. Have you paid any attention to that? Yo, it's Carrie: Yes, and I thought to myself, We have to have a conversation before we talk about it and I'm like, Todd: We do. Yo, it's Carrie: thank goodness we're not doing news this week because Todd: Well, you know, only only thing I thought, I don't want to get into all the the ins and outs. To Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: be honest with you, what I have felt like even yesterday especially, but as the story kind of grew, I didn't know what the story was. I actually Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: saw Nikki's granddaughter. I I mean I guess she's my granddaughter too, we're married. I don't think of myself in those ways. Well, she's like Allie's age. It's it's just kinda it's a it's a strange situation. Anyway. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. She is. I know you're like grandpa, I'm not ready yet. You do have to wrap your head. gotcha. Yeah. You have to wrap your head around it. Todd: anyway, Lacey, she's fabulous. But I happened to see her post on Instagram about this thing and I didn't know anything about it. I thought it was a current story that I had somehow missed. Yo, it's Carrie: Yes. Right. Todd: And I told her, I texted her, I was like, Thanks for putting this out there. Well, I mean, I'm doing the news program. How the hell can I do a news program and not know the news? I just didn't I didn't and then Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: once I got into it, I I started to realize what I was dealing with. Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: As and as I went through the week, Nikki and I talked about it quite a bit. Whatever. We can get into it on news. But what Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: the overwhelming sense I had by the end of the week was Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: just almost like a a grief about this entire thing. First of all, I mean just this Yo, it's Carrie: The whole thing. Todd: the the entire situation, I think it just kind of grieves God. And then Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: when you put it on social media, everything amplifies. You got all you're trying to destroy the lives of these seven boys. Everybody wants to destroy the life of this chick. And I just I I just look at it and think, this is not the way. Like this is just not the way. Whatever, whatever Yo, it's Carrie: Yep. It's awful. Todd: the legal stuff is, whatever all of that, we have got ourselves in a quandary as a culture that the law can't get us out of. Does that make sense? And that's what Beers of Jesus that's Yo, it's Carrie: Yes, Todd: what I kept thinking. I kept thinking, you know, that line in the Lord's Prayer, keep us forgiven and forgiving. And I think the only place that happens is at the foot of the cross where we can all see ourselves Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: both as equals as sinners and equals as w in in value before God. You know what I mean? And so Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Todd: that I just I I I felt that this whole week. I thought, God, we are just we're everything about this is just so wrong. Yo, it's Carrie: It's so wrong. It's just so It's so ugly. Yep. Yep. Okay. Todd: It's just so that that just just it it isn't the way. That's all. Well we we could talk about the D T Son news maybe if it's still going on, but I don't know that it's I just don't know. You know? Yo, it's Carrie: I hope we don't I hope we don't talk too much about it. It's horrible. Ugh Yep. Yeah. Todd: Because like I was saying to Nikki, I remember being in situations when I was a lot younger, you know, you're partying, whatever, Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: where there would be girls, friends or whatever that I would Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: like kinda like take a Protective role on if I knew they were real hammered. But see, what Yo, it's Carrie: Sure. Todd: what I never had what what never entered into any of my stuff at the time was any kind of drug. So I don't really know when you add that on. Does this person Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: seem all that hammered? Do they seem fine? You know, because I don't know much about the drug part. I can just think about the Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: drunk part. You know when somebody's real drunk and you kind of want to protect them. I don't know Yo, it's Carrie: Yes. Todd: once you throw all those I just don't know enough about it, you know? I don't know Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: how the situation looks at that point. Yo, it's Carrie: Right. You don't know what it looks like, you don't know how the how the person under the influence is processing or communicating. It doesn't end well. It does not. Nope. Yeah. I just think that's sad. Yeah. Todd: But I know it doesn't end well, and this isn't the way. That's what I know. You know? So I just think that's sad. And well that's something that we'll probably talk about on news, but I did want to bring it up in case we don't, Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: in case the world moves on by then, you know, we're a week out, whatever. I I just wanted to Yo, it's Carrie: I'm gonna say we'll still be talking about it in a week, but but if this is if this is the angle in which we're going to by which we're gonna talk about it, I'm open to talking about it. I just don't know. I'm not I mean. Yeah. Yeah. Todd: I just don't know. I'm not I mean there's not much that can be done, I don't think, at this point. You know? Most of the damage has been done, and I feel like most of the damage as a culture has been done, and it it just Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: makes me a little sad. It makes me think we need we need more beers of Jesus, guys. That's why we're doing twice as many as news. Yo, it's Carrie: There you go. Yes. Actually there's a good lesson there, right? Todd: That's what I that's what I feel like. So I think if you get too caught up in the in the back and forth and I I I understand why passions flare and why social media is is just so prone to it. But again, I think it's it's all Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: it's all bad. It's all wrong. It's all bad. We gotta figure out a way out of this, and I think the way out of this runs through Jesus. And we run through beers with Jesus. So I mean Yo, it's Carrie: I think so. Well, I'm glad to be here. I'm grateful for for you and this show and the spirit of this because like September just sucked and I'm like, it's October. I'm going to go into October feeling I hope so. Todd: It'll get better, right? Yo, it's Carrie: You do all you can do, but this is helpful. Focusing focusing on real and important things. Todd: Yeah, and actually I think that that that story in that perspective a little bit Yo, it's Carrie: Yep. Todd: I I doubt we'll talk about it much, but I think it it has some bearing on what we're gonna on the story we're gonna talk about today. Especially especially the front end. Yo, it's Carrie: sure. Yeah. Todd: which is Abraham's kind of interceding with God. That's what that's what I'm I Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: think is we're talking about Sodom and Gomorrah to gate today, guys. So Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: you might think and then that culturally probably does have a l a similar perspective on where we're at on a lot of things. Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: It always has, honestly. I don't really think we're it I mean I think this will show us that we're we're in no worse a place than humanity is Todd: Right. Yo, it's Carrie: capable of being throughout history. Not to be cynical, but Todd: Well and this is this is what what we're dealing with, what we're seeing in social media, what we're seeing what we're seeing in Cornell Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: Seven, Lindsay Clancy, all of it. It it is Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: all it may seem to us to be an intensified version at times, but it's all pretty common to man. You know what I mean? Social media amplifies things. Which I think is something that we need to Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it does. Todd: be cognizant of and find our way find a way to deal with. Do you know what I mean? Just like we have to grapple Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: and find so we're gonna have these new technologies. We're gonna have AI, whatever Trump decides to rename it. And we're gonna you know Yo, it's Carrie: And we're gonna Todd: what I mean? We're gonna have these technological things. You're Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: gonna have an introduction to birth control. You're gonna have these kinds of things and and and you have to reckon with how how does this technology how do we how do we fit it in with our ethics? And and culturally and everything else, because if you leave it to the tech lords, it's just ever advancing. They all they want is more, more, more, more, more, more, more. It's 100% humanistic. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: And we have to bring, I think, the Bible, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Jesus into the world and into even increasing technology and what we face in the world. And we gotta say, okay, how do we reckon with this? Because God gives us everything we Yo, it's Carrie: God gives us everything. Todd: need, I think, to kind of put things together. It's true that. that it can amplify sometimes, but you know. Yo, it's Carrie: Right. I'm it's it's a challenge to remember our our humanity and what we were created for and who created us, but just Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: really focusing on our humanity in such a tech world, tech saturation that just. Todd: It's a challenge. A hundred percent it's a challenge. And but you know, just because it's hard doesn't mean it's something Yo, it's Carrie: That's why we're here. Todd: that you we don't have to do. It doesn't mean we just fold. We're still Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Nope. Todd: salt we're still light set on a lampstand by Jesus to shine. So you gotta figure out how to do it in a world of darkness amplified by social media, I suppose. You know? Yo, it's Carrie: There you go. We're still light. I like that. I like that a lot. Well that's that's why we're here. We're glad you joined us. Yeah. Todd: I think that's what we do. That's I I hope that's what we do. We may do it in a more sarcastic s way on news and in a more kind of spiritual, serious sense on beers, but I still th feel like we're after the same thing, which is what what's what's Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: reality, what's the narrative, what's the truth? You know? Is what is what Yo, it's Carrie: Yep, the truth. Todd: we hope to be. So join us on all of them, guys. Todd's world.net, check out news, Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: check out our other beers. Beers we just go through stories of the Bible, and this week we're in Genesis. Yo, it's Carrie: Thank you for being here. Todd: And one thing I do, I t Carrie knows this. I have a favorite Bible teacher. His name is Steve Gregg. And and if you haven't heard of him, his website's called The Narrow Path. He has a a weekly or no, a daily radio show, called The Narrow Path, where it's basically kind of a a question and answer Bible on on the Bible and on Christianity. So any kind of questions you have, people just scatter shot. You know what I mean? And Yo, it's Carrie: Scanner shell. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Todd: Steve Gregg is his name. I've been a fan for a long time. My ex-wife actually kind of organized to bring him into our town. And so he's kind of doing a sweep through Michigan. But listen, he's not like Yo, it's Carrie: That's cool. Todd: crazy popular. It's not like Stephen Furtick where he's selling out the Van Andel Arena, right? This is Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: far more like we're in the Allendale Township Hall, and there's like maybe 20 people there, and he's teaching. He taught for about an hour on the kingdom of God, which was was great. Nikki came with me. Now Nikki has heard around the house and listened to Steve Gregg many times. But you know, all my stuff's a little boring to her. So But she w Yo, it's Carrie: Like what are you listening to today, Todd, right? You always have something going. Todd: Yeah, well and I, you know, I like to listen. I I told Steve Gregg last night, Madam, he's a great guy. I said, listen, ev Yo, it's Carrie: Nice. Todd: we do a podcast, Beers with Jesus, and I listen to the g because we go through the Bible, you it's basically chapters or whatever. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: And I listen to your he has a kind of a verse by verse, chapter by chapter list too, where you can go through Yo, it's Carrie: Hm. Todd: the entire Bible with teachings on everything. And I listen Yo, it's Carrie: Cool. Todd: to I listen to that one for our week because a lot of times it's not really where we go with things, but Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: it gives me such a good foundation on the whole passage that I just appreciate Yo, it's Carrie: Nice. Todd: it. And and then the few times, like last week, when I don't have time to do it, I feel like I'm flailing a little bit on the worst subject Yo, it's Carrie: Gotcha. Todd: too. Yo, it's Carrie: I know. I think you were I think yeah, you were maybe avoiding that topic a little bit. Todd: so anyway, I got to see him, he was fabulous. He talked about the kingdom of God, and his big theme was that you know, the the Bible doesn't talk about the afterlife, hardly at all. The Bible and Yo, it's Carrie: Nope. Todd: Jesus talk about the kingdom of God, and the kingdom of God is here. Jesus comes Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: in Mark. If you remember, right in Mark 1, John the Baptist says the kingdom's here, and then Jesus carries it on. He says, The kingdom's here, repent, Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: change your lives. That's Jesus' whole message. Yo, it's Carrie: Jesus' whole message. Todd: If you look through act, we went through Acts in Beers with Jesus. And if you remember those, there's sermons in Acts. There's some sermons in Acts. Like Peter has, I don't know, three or four. Paul Yo, it's Carrie: If you remember those there there's sermons in Ac There s there's some sermons in Acts. Like Peter has I don't know if you're Todd: has three or four kind of evangelistic sermons. You know that in Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: none of those sermons is the afterlife, heaven or hell, ever mentioned. Not once. Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: What's mentioned is the kingdom. What's mentioned is Jesus came, God raised him from the dead, and the kingdom is now. Yo, it's Carrie: Cain, God raised him from the dead, and the kingdom is now. Todd: And so that was kind of his whole teaching. It was great. He did that for Yo, it's Carrie: So that was kind teaching. Interesting. Todd: about an hour, and then we did maybe an hour, hour and a half of QA, because that's his thing, you know, on the narrow path. Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: The other thing is he's got Matthew713.com Yo, it's Carrie: Seven. Todd: where you can go and you can kind of search. It's a basically all his calls over however many Yo, it's Carrie: Basically always calls over however Todd: twenty years he's been doing this radio show, you can search topics and hear his answers. Which that's cool. Yo, it's Carrie: Can you say what that's called again, Matthew What? Todd: Matthew713.com. And Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Cool. Todd: So I I use both a lot. I would encourage you guys to listen. In my opinion, he's one of the best Bible teachers out there. He's not flashy. It's not a preaching like Steven Furtick or T D Jake. It's just not that kind of thing. But it's he's a teacher. Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah, he's almost like a I was gonna say he's yeah, like an educator. That's what I was gonna say. Yep. Todd: Yeah. And in fact he's not even like Beers with G's. I think people who I hope watch news and watch beers would would my goal is for this to be entertaining as much as it is informative. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: But I'm more of an entertaining kind of guy. He's not, he's a teacher. You know what I mean? I'm not like as much of a teacher. And so it's just it's a different feel. Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Okay, I found that. Todd: I really appreciate it though. So I would encourage people to go to it. Yo, it's Carrie: Cool. So you got a chance to ask him a question during the Q and A? I would if you'd like to share. Todd: Yeah, you want to hear my question? Okay. What I asked, and I thought about this, I knew I knew he was coming. Well, I probably known he was coming for a couple months, but you know, my brain only Yo, it's Carrie: Nice. Todd: works about a week out where I start to think about something. So sometimes only a few days. And And Yo, it's Carrie: Hey. Life is crazy busy. Yep. Todd: so I what I what I asked because I said given John the events of John the Baptist, the end of his life. So Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: for for those who don't know the the quick is he ends up in prison right at the beginning of Jesus' ministry because Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Right. Todd: he's railing on Herod for taking his brother's wife and being kind of enmeshed in adultery. John ends Yo, it's Carrie: Yes, he's criticizing him. Todd: up in prison. He that period provokes such a period of intense doubt that he sends his disciples to Jesus kind of midway through Jesus' ministry and he says, Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: Are you really the one? that we've been waiting for, are we still Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: waiting for somebody else? Because Jesus' ministry looked so different from what even John the Baptist, who Jesus called the greatest prophet ever known Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: to man, it wasn't what he expected. And and Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: so what my question was was, is it a fair reading of John of the end of John the Baptist's life to say he got his it it appears that he got his focus from the kingdom of God back to an earthly political kingdom. Not necessarily that he sinned, but we can do things like Abraham with Sarah or or with Hagar or Abraham with Sarah when they go to Egypt and he says this is my sister. We can do things that aren't necessarily sin, maybe that aren't the wisest thing. You know what I mean? And I wonder if I Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: Yeah, maybe that wasn't maybe John lost focus a little bit, it seems like to me. Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: And I say that because Jesus wasn't out there railing on Herod. Jesus never railed on Pilate or Caesar, and neither did any of the apostles in the New Testament afterwards. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: Now, but so I said, Did did was that a misstep? You know what I mean? And does that misstep Yo, it's Carrie: You know what I mean? Does that miss that? Todd: warn us about getting mixed up between kingdoms and what to say about our political allegiances and things? So that that was my question. And he, you know, his answer was his answer was that John the Baptist Yo, it's Carrie: interesting. Great question. Yeah. What do you say? Todd: represented An old testament prophet still. And he said, he said, I don't think John the Baptist ever got a clear view of Jesus. I don't think he got to spend much time with Jesus. I don't think he understood Jesus' teaching on the kingdom. I Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: think he thought more like the old testament prophets did, and all the old testament prophets railed on the Jewish kings, Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: and they expected. The Messiah to bring an earthly kingdom, just like the disciples did. Remember, standing on the on the Mount of Ascension, Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: right before Jesus is going to go into the clouds and leave him, he's been resurrected, he's been bouncing around talking to people in his resurrected body, eating, doing things in Jerusalem for 40 days. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: He's finally getting ready to go back to heaven to take his seat on the throne on the right hand of God. And his disciples say to him, Is now the time? Because they think, okay, you're going to defeat the Romans now. That they a that that Yes. Yo, it's Carrie: Right, like physically, literally in front of our eyes is what they kept thinking. Todd: The disciples kept thinking that I just think I think we're prone to think that. Even if we don't say it. Even if we don't Yo, it's Carrie: I mean it's all we understand. It's all we understand. Todd: say it, I think that we tend to live that way a little. You know? Yo, it's Carrie: Right. So back when we read when we read Acts, we talked about John the Baptist, how he and he probably believed it's it's I don't think it's too far fetched to think that he believed that he and Jesus were going to be like a team in the ministry. And the fact that he then talked about that in my book, remember? Yeah. Todd: Yes. I wrote about that in my book. Remember? Leaves the Blue Away. I bo I wrote a a s an od what I think people think is an odd chapter because it's it's gonna now when when Beaten by the Storm, my new book on Bible stories comes out, it'll it would fit a lot better in there. But at the time all I had was this and I knew this chapter should be in there, and it was about the woman on the well. Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Well maybe it was a maybe it was the step towards this. Yes. Todd: And we talked about that. I talked about that exact thing. Go ahead, Carrie. But no, Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: you're a hundred percent right. Yo, it's Carrie: So we talked about that and it was probably really confusing. Again, his expectations were one thing. The reality ended up being something else. And so it was probably really disappointing for him to be Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: put in prison and for do Todd: yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: for you know, for doing his thing. And so him questioning at that point makes sense. So what did yeah, what did Todd: He said he that John the Baptist represented more of a an old testament understanding. And that yeah, he didn't. He Yo, it's Carrie: What it is is answer. Steve Gregg. the Old Testament. Okay. And it makes sense. Todd: didn't have an understanding of it. And and Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: now he didn't say this, but but I think maybe the implications you can be one of the cause Jesus goes on to talk about him after that and says that he's one of the greatest prophets ever known to men. You can be that and still be mixed up on what God's doing. We saw that with Ab with Abram, right, and Hagar. Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Todd: For fourteen years you can you can think that you took the right turn and not have made the right turn Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: and yet somehow God still works through all of that, I think, is that's Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: maybe the most impressive part, I think. You know what I mean? Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: Is that we keep trying to help. And I do think I Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah, we do. Todd: do think there's part of Jesus that there's part of God that would rather have us take a swing at something. Even if even if even if it's not Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: a strike and maybe we can't hit it, he'd rather see us swinging than sitting back kinda hold you know what I mean? The baseball reference for ya. Yo, it's Carrie: Right. I I think s yeah, no, I think somet I think sometimes we do we he wants us to be an active participant. yeah, it's just the Holy Spirit will come along. Todd: He wants us to try some things. And his Holy Spirit will come along. You know, with Paul, when we talked about Paul, remember Paul wanted to go to Macedonia. He kept he tried a couple different times, and in Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: and the Holy Spirit prevented him every time. In other words, act like maybe there's an open door and God will close it. God's real capable of closing the door Yo, it's Carrie: Ha ha ha. Todd: if he doesn't want you in it, right? Yo, it's Carrie: Right, right. Todd: But he'd rather take see us try some things rather than not. He'd rather see us take a risk. That's that. That old John Wimber line, faith is spelled R-I-S-K. And I I I think Yo, it's Carrie: nice. It's good. Todd: that's true. That discipleship is a series of attempts and failures. That's how we grow. Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. That's that's fair. I wanna say something Todd: Ha ha ha. Yo, it's Carrie: you just made me think about about this show. For for anyone who's listening who has a either a I'm gonna say a limited view, maybe a limited experience with the Bible and you're listening to us, or someone who has expi an experience with the Bible in your life, but you have a narrow view. So you're judging Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: God, judging religion. Todd: You got all boxed up. Yo, it's Carrie: Yes, and judging it by like, well, it says this in this you know, I've I heard this and about Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: God's wrath and judgment and therefore like this is my one view. So anyone who has a restricted view, what we're talking what what you're talking about here with John the Baptist, the old view, ge you know, expectations of what Jesus is of what God's kingdom Todd: Mm-hmm. Yo, it's Carrie: was going to be, how it wasn't what they expected, all of that. I think that it's I think it's a good time to just mention to people who are listening that you need to take this in its in the big picture. You have to you have to be patient with it and be open to the just to God's development of the story. And that's Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: what I like what we're doing. We don't just we don't just throw out one inspirational quote and say this is God or one one negative quote about damnation and say this is God. It's like we're walking through the story because it's there's so much more to it. So I think Todd: Yeah. I've been I have been really blessed by doing what we do personally. So and you know, I was blessed Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah, it's good. Todd: to see 20 people there real engaged, and I thought Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: I just think you know, we we have this tendency. I maybe I just have this tendency, but I feel like it's somewhat common, which is we judge things by size. How many people, how many listeners do I have, how many downloads do I got, how many views, Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: how many people are coming? And you know, Jesus never did that all that God never did that that much. Remember with Gideon? Where where he's got ten thousand an an army of ten thousand. First of all, he's going up against the Midianites that have armies of hundreds of thousands, so he Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: already doesn't have enough people. And then God, through a series of trials, whittles that army down to three hundred people. And he says, I'm gonna deliver you with this. And that's he Yo, it's Carrie: Ha ha Todd: did the same thing with with Abraham and Sarah, if you think about it. He wanted to wait. So he waits twenty five years till there's they're old as hell. They can't they they have no shot at anything. And then God's like Yo, it's Carrie: All this out. Todd: That's how I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it through you two, who it's impossible to do it through. Because Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Right. Todd: and and yeah, I think that so I have really it it was encouraging to me. That entire night, I would encourage people to to Steve Gregg's Fabulous in the Bible if you have questions. And listen to our show, Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah, it's cool. Todd: Bookmark is I hope that you follow us and that you come back and check out news and the whole thing. Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Thanks for being here. Todd: Todd's world.net has all the books, my my memoirs on there. insurrection witness, great stuff. So this week. Yo, it's Carrie: Love it. Thank you. Todd: We are in Genesis 18. Yeah, we're gonna see where we get. I think there's Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: a little more in the end of this 18 where Abraham is talking with God. And then the next chapter he goes into Sodom and Gomorrah. Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: I originally thought we'd do it all. Maybe we will, maybe we won't. We'll see where we go. How about that? I'm open to it, but I'm not gonna keep us there for an hour and a half. So right. Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. All right. We've talked about all those other things for for twenty minutes, I was gonna say. Todd: And and honestly, I feel like there's enough in just this last part of 18 that we may end up saving Sodom and Gamort till next week. So I think I'm reading this week. Do ya? I do too. I think it's really good. And I think that Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. I love I love this one. Do you? I do too. I do. I think it's really good. Todd: I I think there's maybe more in it than people might otherwise at first glance might think. So Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Todd: I think I'm reading this week. I'm gonna Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: read I'm gonna read we read the message. I happen to like the message. I think the message is Yo, it's Carrie: Oops. Todd: It's fabulous translation. It's more narrative. It really works with me and how I think about things. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: but as I always say, the best translation is whatever, translation you'll read. So if you'll Yo, it's Carrie: Yes. Todd: actually read it, gotta work through it. I'm pretty confident. Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah, I believe that too. You can s are you starting at sixteen? Chapter sixteen though? Todd: So we are in 18. Yeah, is that I know I'm chart I'm starting chapter 18, verse 16. Yes. Yo, it's Carrie: Verse sixteen, yeah, sorry. Todd: Yep. So prior to this, we had the circumcision last week, and then and then God showed up and and he told Abraham and Sarah, he changes their names. He says, Now's the time. I'm gonna fulfill this promise that I've been telling you about for twenty five years that you Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: already thought was fulfilled in Ishmael. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: But now I'm gonna do it for real. And and so that that was the conversation. Then and then they meet with Abraham, then they meet with with Sarah, they make him a whole meal, and and God says, Yo, it's Carrie: right. Todd: Listen, I'm gonna come back a year from now. Sarah's gonna be pregnant. Sarah laughs, God says, Why'd you laugh? Is anything too hard for God? And Sarah's I didn't laugh. And God's like, Yeah, you laughed. Okay, so that but anyway, God's setting up, he's saying, and about the time it takes to have a baby, I'm gonna be back next year. And you old people are gonna have one. So that's Yo, it's Carrie: And they're like, okay. Todd: where we're at right now where we start. It says, When the men got up to leave, they set off for Sodom. Abraham walked with them to say goodbye. Then God said, Shall I keep back from Abraham what I'm about to do? Abraham is going to become a large and strong nation. Yo, it's Carrie: Said, shall I keep back from Abraham what I'm about to do? Abraham is going to become a large and strong nation. Todd: All the nations of the world are going to find themselves blessed through him. Yes, I've settled on him as the one to train his children and future family to observe God's way of life. Live kindly and generously and fairly, so that God can complete in Abraham what he promised him. Yo, it's Carrie: All the nations of the world are going to find themselves blessed through him. Yes, I've settled on him as the one to train his children and future families to observe God's way of life. Live kindly and generously and fairly, so that God can complete in Abraham what he promised him. Todd: So he kind of reiterates that whole promise that he went through. He's gone through so often with Abraham. Then he says God continued the cries of God. Yo, it's Carrie: reiterates the whole promise that he went through. He went through so often later. Then he says, God continued, the cries Todd: of the victims in Sodom and Gomorrah are deafening. The sins of those cities or the sin of those cities is immense. I'm going down to see for myself, see if what they're doing is as bad as it sounds. Then I'll Yo, it's Carrie: of the victims in Sodom and Gomorrah are deafening. The sins of those cities, or the sin of those cities, is immense. I'm going down to see for myself, see if what they're doing is as bad as it sounds. Todd: know. The men set out for Sodom. So the two men, there was three men, one of them was was God, I think Jesus. It's a theophany, so it was a pre incarnate appearance of Jesus, I think is what we're dealing with. Yo, it's Carrie: set out the so the two men there was three men, one of them was was God, I think Jesus. It's a theophanies, it was a pre incarnate appearance is what it was called. Okay. Todd: and then the two men that were with him were Angels. Again appearing as Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: men. I'm not sure up until this point if Abraham I you know, up until God says you're gonna have a baby and stuff, it it's questionable whether Abraham actually knew he was Yo, it's Carrie: says you're gonna have a baby and stuff, it it's questionable whether Abraham actually knew Todd: dealing with God or not. Was he just being hosp hospitable because that was such an important thing in in eastern culture was to was this hospitality and and you know making meals for people Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: when you brought them into their house they were like your own family you were protecting them you were taking them under the protection of your home and it was just hospitality was was extreme an extremely important virtue in in the ancient Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: world so but clearly at this point Abraham you know once he he he he gives the prophecy about Isaac and everything else it's clear that he's dealing with God and so God makes this pronouncement about Sodom and Gomorrah, then the men, which is the angels, set out for Sodom. But Abraham stood in God's path blocking his way. Abraham confronted him. Are you serious? Are you planning on getting rid of the good people right along with the bad? What if there are fifty decent people left in the city? Will you lump the good with the bad and get rid of the lot? Wouldn't you spare the city for the sake of those fifty innocents? I can't believe you'd do that. Kill off the good and the bad alike as if there was no difference between them. Doesn't the judge of all the earth judge with justice? God said, If I find fifty decent people in the city of Sodom, I'll spare the place just for them. Abraham came back, to I, a mere mortal made from a handful of dirt, dare open my mouth again to my master. What if the fifty fall short by five? hold on, I just lost my place. What if the fifty Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: fall short by five? Would you destroy the city because of those missing five? He said, I won't destroy it if there are forty five. Abraham spoke up again. What if you only find forty? Neither will I destroy it for forty. He said, Master, don't be irritated with me. But what Yo, it's Carrie: You don't be able to do that. Todd: if only what if only thirty are found? He said No, I won't do it if I find thirty. He pushed on. I know I'm trying your patience, Master, but how about for twenty? I won't destroy it for twenty. He wouldn't quit. Don't get angry, Master. This is the last time. What if you only come up with ten? For the sake of only ten, I won't destroy the city. When God finished talking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham went home. Yo, it's Carrie: Good job. Todd: yeah, good job. Hey Carrie, let's take a quick break. We'll come right back. All right? Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Okay. Sure. Todd: Okay, we're back. Warmed up our coffee. Hopefully maybe Yo, it's Carrie: All right. Todd: cleared up a little technical difficulty. We'll see. We're neither one of us are tech bros, so We do our best. Yo, it's Carrie: We do our best. Todd: Okay, so we did so so Abraham is is is taking the role of interceding for Sodom and Gomorrah essentially, right? I now Yo, it's Carrie: Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Todd: it's possible Abraham Abraham obviously he knows Lot is in Sodom. And and Lot's obviously important. Yo, it's Carrie: Right, his nephew, correct? Todd: Yeah, that lot's obviously important to Abraham Abraham. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: Geez, I got so used to saying Abram. Yo, it's Carrie: Haha, it's okay. Todd: so i it's is his concern here primarily for Lot? Is it primarily for the cities? I don't know, but but it's a it's a strange passage because in a way Abraham almost comes off more merciful than God. Do you know what I mean? It's like it's it's a little odd. Don't you think? Yo, it's Carrie: It is. I think it's yes, I think it's I think it's such a sweet I I love this. I I yeah, I just love this because it's so well it there's a sweetness in it, probably thinking about his nephew, but there's also this just sense of justice. Like he I think he just wants to understand wait a minute, Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: God, like help me understand this. And Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: The reason I'm smiling about it is because in watching movies and just T V shows over the years with my sons, their sense of justice in a story is like so it's like so black and white. It's so Todd: Is it? Yo, it's Carrie: it is. so things like like vigilante movies like shoot, what's the one with Denzel Washington? He's the Equalizer. Todd: Yeah, maybe. That sounds right. Yo, it's Carrie: my gosh. Like they love they love that stuff because they're they just Todd: Do they did do they have an easier time relating to or whatever justice as opposed to mercy? You know what I mean? Because probably some people would, I don't know. Yo, it's Carrie: You know, when they were younger, yes. It's probably evolving because they're becoming, you know, a l more empathetic adults and Todd: Older, sure. Yo, it's Carrie: yeah, a little more mature and you start to see some some subtle Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: gray areas. I mean, there are gray areas, but and you know, when we talk about God, we talk about mercy. But I think they're I don't know, I just feel like they're pretty Think they're I think they're worried about they're worried about God being like this. God being like, Wipe it all out. It's bad. Wipe out. Todd: Well, I mean there is well, the and there's an aspect of of God that's like that. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: on the very surface end, like can we just say that God is promising Abraham that he's gonna be the father of a great nation which is gonna be Jews and nothing seems more Jewish than what he does right here. I just would like to say Yo, it's Carrie: my gosh, you did not just say that. Todd: Yeah, like s he's de he's nickering God down and and that is I I don't think it's bad. God doesn't seem to think it's bad. You know what I mean? Like Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: like there there's a there's an audacity that it takes to stand in the gap and ask. You know what I mean? Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Todd: I think I think that in a way Abraham is almost he's almost acting i in this story it's it's almost like he's he's taking the role of of jesus almost in this story if you think about jesus kind of standing Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. I see what you're saying. Sure. Todd: between god's judgment Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: that that that the world that we deserve Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: and and us and and begging for mercy and and abraham Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: standing there and he's saying he sees god on his way and He knows. I mean, he knows God enough to know. I let me say this first. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: It's encouraging to me that God people probably struggle with this a little. We've talked about this through Mark. Jesus taking on flesh in the incarnation. When God Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: says, I've been hearing about this, but once I go down, I'll know. We have this picture of God in our mind of like, well, God's omniscient. What is he talking about? Yo, it's Carrie: I know, I laughed at that line. Todd: But I think I think that when he takes on human form. There's a certain extent to which when he enters the story, he's taken on the limitations of humanity in the story. Jesus did that to a certain extent. Otherwise, Jesus Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: could have never asked a question he didn't know the answer to, and therefore could have never lived anything resembling a human life. How could he have done Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: that? Well, he can only do that if he kind of if if the deity part kind of veils off and Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: and he allows himself. Now I think he could tap into it. I think we saw that Jesus did that at times, where he would Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: tap into that deity part. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: I just don't think he walked around always knowing everything everybody's gonna do before they did it. I just I just don't that doesn't make any sense to me. Story isn't written that way. Jesus says, Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: Who touched me? Spends all this time searching the crowd for who touched him. That seems like a charade to me if he really knows. Do you know what I mean? I just I don't Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: I I don't think that. I don't I don't think that's how it works. So I think but what I think's encouraging is Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: when God says to Abraham, I've heard The cries of the victims in Sodom and Gomorrah are deafening. The sin of those cities is immense. I'm gonna go down and see for myself, Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: see if they're doing it as as bad as it sounds, then I'll know. I think there's something encouraging to the fact that God, I think with all of us, when it comes to judgment, there's gonna be a time and a place to face our accuser, to face the judge. Yo, it's Carrie: gonna be a time and a place to face our accuser, to face the judge. Do you know what I mean? Right. Even inside my Todd: Do you know what I mean? Even in Sodom and Gomorrah where fire and brimstone rain down from heaven, before that, God goes down to face them first. Do you know what I mean? To see Yo, it's Carrie: Yes. Todd: him. Yo, it's Carrie: And do you think and do you think that taking on human flesh, like coming into a human f body allows a deeper understanding of what that of what that victim what what the victims there are feeling, what the the weight Todd: It definitely did with Jesus, I think. Yo, it's Carrie: yeah, the weight of the sin that's occurring in the city. Do you feel like completely veiled as you said, veiled as a deity, although he although he knows everything, can't really Todd: Yeah, he's not Yo, it's Carrie: feel it in a human way until he is human, in human form. Is that kind of what you're saying? Todd: Maybe. Maybe he wants to walk the to lay eyes on and walk this city before I actually destroy it. But see, that's encouraging to me Yo, it's Carrie: Sure. Todd: because he still cares. Remember that that passage in Hebrews that says those who come to God have to leave believe both that God exists and that he cares enough to respond to those who seek him. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: Well, God cares so much to respond he puts himself in a place where people can now they didn't. Which is different than what happened with Jonah. If you think about when Jonah went to Nineveh, and Jonah didn't want to go to Nineveh, he ran the other Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: way, spent time in a fish, the whole thing. When he finally does what God wanted him to do and he goes to N Yo, it's Carrie: Well finally does what God wanted to do. Todd: to Nineveh, then he says, Listen, God's going to rain down judgment on you, the The city of Nineveh does exactly what Jonah was afraid of and they repent. And then God does exactly what Jonah was afraid of, and he's merciful on their repentance. And Jonah's like, wait, you should have destroyed them. Because he hated them. Because they were the enemies of Israel. That was and Yo, it's Carrie: And Jonas says as right Todd: Jonah says, That's why I didn't want to do this to begin with. I knew you were going to be merciful to him. Yo, it's Carrie: Well, that's encouraging too. It's encouraging that Jonah knew that about God. And and this is Abraham, Todd: I think Abraham does. Yo, it's Carrie: though. Well, right. And I think too, two things I want to say about this. Abraham has this kind of relationship with God. That's the other thing that makes me smile about this exchange, Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: is that Abraham is talking to God like a friend. obviously, an an authority figure. Because he's asking, Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: he's like s but he's questioning him like a friend. And I love that. I I love his relationship with God. I feel like that's something that we should seek in our lives. To be able Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: to talk to God like this. Because I don't think it offends God. I don't think it's trying his patience. I don't think it is what are all the things that he says? It's like I don't I don't think it's irritating. I don't Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: I don't think all those things and I I love that. I think no, God wants us to go to him. To go to him with everything. we're Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: we're allowed to question him. Obviously you can do so s respectfully, but the other thing Yeah. Yeah, like like wait, wait, wait. Like we have to have a convers we have to Todd: I love the idea of Abraham standing in his path and blocking him, you know? I just love that picture. Yo, it's Carrie: have a conversation. And the other thing I was gonna say is I wonder if this is a test. So this is this is right on the heels of I mean it's actually it's it's in the com same conversation where he God has reiterated this prom I mean he how many times in the last couple of chapters has he said, I will make a great nation out of you. You will be Todd: I'm gonna do this right. Yo, it's Carrie: the father of a nation. Well, if you're gonna be the father of nations, you have to I think God has to have a certain confidence in what kind of father you're going to be. And so do Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: you think that God is maybe testing Abraham? Todd: I feel like that. I don't even know if yeah, maybe testing's the right word. Yo, it's Carrie: I mean we know he's got a test he we know he has tests coming. And I just wonder if this is Todd: Well C. S. Lewis Yo, it's Carrie: another one. Todd: he tal he has he makes a comment about how God I think this is in a grief observed, and Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: he says, he's talking about how his faith turns out to have been a house of cards. You know, all the boxes he set up for God. God kind of kind of flattened them all in one thing. And and as he gets to the end of this of this harrowing journey Dealing with grief, dealing with losing his wife and all these things. And he writes his way through it in the book. And as he gets to the end, he says, God, God always knew the quality of my faith. It was me who didn't. It was me that he was trying to show the quality of my faith through the Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: test. God always knew what was in Abraham. That's why I kept telling him the whole time. But maybe Abraham starts to see, maybe we start to see that. Like you're talking about, that mercy, that graciousness, we start to see everything that's gonna personify Jesus coming out in in Abraham, and is that the kingdom? Is that the kingdom of God? Steve Gregg was talking about yesterday. You know what I mean? To to do justly and to because God says that. He says, Yes, Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: I've settled on him as the one to train his children and future family to observe God's way of life, to live kindly, generously, and fairly. And Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: So that God can complete in Abraham what he pressed. So Abraham's growing into it here. And I think Abraham's standing Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: in the gap and saying, Wait, you know, for fifty people. I don't think Abraham thought there was fifty people there. I think Abraham got all the way down to ten and he thought, man, I've pushed it as far as I can go. I don't think I don't think Yo, it's Carrie: Like I've I've made my well, he's also made his point. He's made the point. But maybe Todd: Mm-hmm. Yo, it's Carrie: it's less of a test and more of a revealing, revealing to Abraham, you know. Todd: Yeah. Well they're kind of the same thing, right? If God tests if he puts us through that refining fire, he's refining Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: some of those impurities off and he's showing both to himself and to us and to the world what's really in us. This is what I'm really making. You know? And we Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. Todd: start to see it. We see it in Abraham. wow. You know? This is Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: how much he cares. Now he's already rescued that was more for the sake of Lot, but he rescued this entire town, remember, this entire kingdom. This was the thing with Melchizedek, and he rescued the kings of Sodom. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: And remember they wanted him to take all the stuff, and he said, I'm not gonna take any of your stuff so you can't say you made me rich. Yeah. Remember? Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Yes. Thank you thank you for reminding me about that. I forgot about that history of that city. Todd: So Abraham has had Abraham already rescued these people once. And Abraham I think full well knows how bad they are. I dun I mean, do you know what I mean? Yo, it's Carrie: I know, I I'm sure word has gotten to them about the craziness going on there. I know, it's like not that far. Mm-hmm. Yeah, maybe Lot comes over for Sunday dinner once in a while. He's Man, you won't believe the party that's going on in the street last night. Right. Todd: If words gotten to God, word's gotten to Abraham, I'm sure. Because Lots living there. And so I I do think that's I I think that's interesting. I think that that I also think if you go back, I think that Abraham thought when he hit ten he'd gone as far as God would go. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: But what I think's interesting about that is is that when I read that, I was thinking about Romans three, and I was thinking about Paul. And Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: in Romans three, maybe ten, maybe eight, I don't know, somewhere in there. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: It says, I think it's nine or ten, might be ten. It says, so where does that put us? Do we Jews get a better break than the others? Not really. Basically, Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: all of us, whether insiders or outsiders, start out in identical conditions, which is to say we are we that we all start out as sinners. Scriptures leave scripture leaves no doubt about it. There's nobody living right, not even one. Nobody Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: knows the score. Nobody alert for God. They've taken the they've all taken the wrong turns. They've all wandered down blind alleys. No one's living right. I can't find a single one. And he goes on and on and on about that. And I think Abraham didn't he hadn't quite realized that. God would go all the way down to none. What what what if there's none righteous? I'll sacrifice myself for him. See, that's Abraham's kind of a picture of Jesus, I think, on the front end. He just doesn't yet quite have the concept of quite how merciful God is. Do you know what I mean? Does that make any Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: sense? Yo, it's Carrie: yeah. Right. This is just kind of a a a peek at it's just Todd: Right. Yo, it's Carrie: it's just a glimpse of the mercy that is to come. Todd: Well both the mercy and the justice. We see both. Yo, it's Carrie: Yes, yes. Todd: That because Abraham knows that if when God goes down and sees it, God's not God's not gonna lead God's not just gonna let that kind of thing roll. That's Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: not the kind of God we have and that's not the kind of world he created. The flood wasn't that long ago for it. You know what I mean? For for Abraham, I mean. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. I was gonna say, yeah. Like he's aware of he's aware of the story. Todd: Yeah. And God knows you can't thumb your nose at God forever. I think that's a fair warning too to a culture like ours, and we Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: talked about that whole Cornell Seven story. There's a grieving part of it, but there's also a part that God doesn't let this kind of thing go on unchecked forever. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: Seek God while he can be found, because there's a there's a line you step over where maybe he can't. You know what I mean? I think that's the that's what's Yo, it's Carrie: Yes. Todd: implied by that passage. Or maybe there's Yo, it's Carrie: I Todd: a line where you won't. I don't know if can't won't or the exact same thing. There just maybe there's there's lines we cross where where we don't go. We won't go back. You know? Be mindful of that. Yo, it's Carrie: Yes. Todd: Be careful. That it's gonna be just like it was in the days of Lot before the second coming. People are gonna be buying, they're gonna be engaging in commerce, they're gonna be doing whatever they want, thinking there's no end in sight, and then in the twinkling of an eye, the skies roll back and Jesus comes back and takes his earthly reign. You know what I mean? So Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. So I r I read something here and actually there's there's not no one has they didn't attribute this quote to anyone. And while we're talking about New Testament, we're talking about Judas and Jesus, I think it still applies to this. It's a great quote. It says the tragedy of Judas wasn't distance from Jesus, it was closeness without transformation. And and Todd: Yeah. That's a hundred percent right. Yo, it's Carrie: mm-hmm. And like what you said, it's like you can't you can't thumb your nose. This you've got to you have a decision to make. yeah, anyway. Todd: I just read I just read in my personal, you know, Bible reading. I I'm Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: going through Matthew right now. I just kinda go a book at a time. Go chapter Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: at a time, write about it, whatever. Well and I just went through the this last week I went through I think it was twenty two. I d whatever it is that's the the portrayal of Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane in Matthew and then Judas and the whole thing. So Jesus Yo, it's Carrie: Yes. The betrayal? Mm-hmm. Todd: says they're sitting at the Last Supper says you know, tells them that one of you is gonna is gonna betray me. One of you sitting here. And then they all know it's not me, it's not me, it's not me. And Judas, at least in Matthew, reaches over, dips in in Jesus' cup, and he says, It's not me, is it, Master? And Jesus response is, Don't play games with me, Judas. And I thought that really stuck with me because I thought, how many Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: times do we want to play games with God? You know what I mean? And there's that there's that warning that God's not to be trifled with. He's Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: to be taken seriously. That's why when we're called to repent, when we're called to turn and follow to pick up our cross, it's all a pretty serious It's pretty serious in fr infractions that Jesus had to die for. Do you know what I mean? Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Todd: And so when I when I read that don't play games with God, I thought, God, how often do I play games with God? You know what I mean? Like Yo, it's Carrie: What what do you think playing a game with God looks like like today? we're not sitting at we're not sitting Todd: Well Yo, it's Carrie: at a table saying to you know, saying to Jesus what Judah said. Todd: No. Yo, it's Carrie: What yeah, how does that look now? Todd: Maybe it would be holding on to certain things we know God wants us to let go of and kind of bargaining maybe. Like Yo, it's Carrie: Sure. Todd: listen, I we but this isn't that bad, I can do this or I can do that. You know what I mean? Or Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Yeah. Todd: we think, well, maybe God's so full of mercy, he probably doesn't care that much about that. You know what I mean? May I dunno, Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. You know what I mean? Todd: maybe those kinds of things. What do you think? Yo, it's Carrie: That could be. And and I was gonna say there's this there's something there in the in the playing the games in in your example for us that makes me feel like there's it's it's the spirit of it. If we if let's say we're we're choosing to do something we know God doesn't want us to do, I think that if it's if we know it and it's out of weakness and we're like and we feel bad about it, I feel like that's a little bit different than Well, like justifying it. Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: I feel like maybe justifying if if you if you are aware of it and justify it, I think then that's trifling. I think if sure. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Todd: Well, if you don't take God seriously on it. In other words, you don't take the Bible seriously. You know, I would almost say I don't know. I haven't put a lot of thought into this, but it seems to me like Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: if you go to church once in a while and Yo, it's Carrie: Uh-huh. Todd: you kind of consider yourself generally part of the Christian culture, but you don't really read the Bible, you don't really endeavor to get to know God, and you just kind of want to coast Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: And you just kinda want to watch your college football and idolize your stock market and everything else, then maybe there's a sense in which that's playing games with God. You know what I mean? Maybe we're not taking Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Sure. I mean it's not Todd: light if we're not taking the kingdom seriously, Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: and if we're not taking our role and our part in the kingdom seriously, and what and our call seriously enough, Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: maybe maybe we are playing games with God. I don't know. What do you think? Yo, it's Carrie: I think some people who do that like I don't know, I just Todd: Not to the extent of Judas, maybe, obviously. I mean that probably is the the farthest. Yo, it's Carrie: Right, right, right. No, I I understand. We're kind of talking about apathy. Like Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: or no, complacency. There it is. And I think Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: if I think if you live complacently gosh, about anything. I think if you're complacent about anything, I think it's I I I don't think that God likes that. I don't think God wants you to be complacent about your your family, complacent about your work, complacent about your relationships and friendships and and certainly not about your faith. So I Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: think like complacency, kind of like laziness. You know? No, I I I think all of that Todd: Yeah. No, I I I think all of that is true. Yo, it's Carrie: should be. Mm-hmm. So I guess what you're saying is if you're, you know, devoted to all these earthly things, and then you're complacent about Todd: But yet if you're trying to kind of claim the benefits, if you're trying to to to clean yourself. Yeah. Yeah. God Jesus doesn't Yo, it's Carrie: about God then that's like call yourself, portray yourself and all that, right? Yeah. Todd: seem it's it's it's it's not it's an all or nothing thing with Jesus. I mean, we saw that all through Mark, right? Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: Said if you're gonna come to me, you know, the rich young ruler comes to him. He's I what do I gotta do? You gotta keep the commandments. I've done all that my whole life. Well, one thing you lack, go and sell everything you have, then all your treasure will be in heaven, and he goes away sad. And Jesus is sad for him because he watched Yo, it's Carrie: Sure. Todd: somebody that couldn't he was holding fast onto everything that he had. He couldn't Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: empty his hands to accept what Jesus had to give him. You know what I mean? Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: And it's easier maybe sometimes if we're playing whether we're playing games with God or we're playing games with ourselves or W there's just a certain triviality that we can kind of take to life and think, it doesn't Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: matter. It doesn't matter what I do, it doesn't matter this, it doesn't matter. You know what I mean? Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Yeah. Yeah, that's actu I think that's a really good example and that probably applies to lots of people. I don't wanna sound judgmental, but but I think a lot of people are like, it doesn't matter. Todd: You see that when you see some of these I I mean, we've all got issues, but some of these mainstream denominations where they get up with their rainbow pride flags and and talk about how Jesus is trans and Jesus is this and and you watch these things and you they just look like a bunch of clowns. And I think you don't know God and you don't know how he works and you're playing games with him. I d I don't know, maybe that's a little judgmental on my part, but that's what I feel like. I'm running up to a chapter Yo, it's Carrie: Well, Todd: where God's about to rain down fire and brimstone on like four cities. So there's something Yo, it's Carrie: Right, right. Todd: to the judgment of God, right? Yo, it's Carrie: I understand that, yeah. And I think yeah, I know what you mean. I I feel like, you know, you and I we we differ slightly on this. I'm I have no problem believing that God loves God loves us all. He's created all of us. Whether Todd: Mm-hmm. Yo, it's Carrie: you know whether we've lost our way or not, he still loves all of us. But yeah, getting up and I don't know, getting up and saying God's trans is just I I don't I don't even know what to do with that. Like that just that just seems Oddly outside of like relevance and it sounds performative and weird. I don't know. It's it's just weird. I I just think that's weird. I mean, we're Todd: It's trivial. Just it's trivial to the point of of being unbecoming. Yo, it's Carrie: not getting up at on a podium and saying God is a a white man, you know. It's like it's Todd: Right. Yo, it's Carrie: not that's not how it's not how we define God. So anyway. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Todd: No. So I do think I do think there's something to that. I think that I think that the most important thing in this is is Abraham Abraham's willingness Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: To both confront God and to ask Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: and to to ask and to intercede on Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: behalf of of sinners. Of of Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: of a of an entire culture he knew deserved nothing more than what God was gonna do to him. And yet still find the mercy in there. I think you're seeing Abraham growing into what God is making him into. Like God kept has been Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Todd: saying this whole time, I'm gonna make you this, and I'm gonna make you this, and you're gonna be this. And I think we're seeing Abraham grow into what God has for him. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: And I think that that's what God's showing in this. Now listen, there's judgment on the way. That's that we can't. Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: I don't think it's it does us any good to soft pedal the fact. that what Abraham's standing in the way of is real and not only that it happens. You know what I mean? There's destruction. Yo, it's Carrie: Yes. Just just because Todd: The reason Jesus came and he's warning everybody about about the destruction and and and come into the kingdom now, repent, change away is because the end is is judgment and is death and it's a real end. You know what I mean? Like like there's real danger there. Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Like Abraham even though Abraham is sh is i pleading with God for mercy and he's showing his merciful heart, it doesn't mean Todd: Mm-hmm. Yo, it's Carrie: that what's happening in these cities is okay. Todd: And even with Abraham we get the idea that Abraham knew God had a limit. You know what I mean? Now when Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Todd: I go take you to Romans and I say God's limit, yeah, it actually doesn't have a limit. Well, because of his plan through Jesus, you know what I mean? Like, he can overcome Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Mm-hmm. Right. Todd: like his grace is greater than sin. God's greater than the evil that we th that that his creation can undo, but also You know, redemption takes it the it takes a turning on the part of of us. It takes a turning on the part of the people in Sodom and Gomorrah who are like I say, you could you can compare it to Nineveh. And Jonah comes to Nineveh and preaches his his thing. Now you could say that Lot didn't really preach or whatever, but there is something to the fact later we're gonna see in in nineteen next week that that Abraham or Lot was Maybe dim, but he was something of a light in Sodom, I think. Pretty dim. Pretty dim. Yeah. But it was pretty Yo, it's Carrie: Lot okay, is that the impression we get? 'Cause I Todd: dark in Sodom. So even a dim light made a little bit of a of an impact. Do you know what I mean? And that there Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. Todd: was a little bit of resentment from the people of Sodom towards Lot, we're gonna find in the next chapter too. So Yo, it's Carrie: Did they did they think Lot was a big buzzkill? Todd: Yeah, I don't know. I just think every once and even even the occasional reminder that there's something beyond our own selves and our own sin, that Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: felt a little bright to in Sodom. You know what I mean? So and in our world Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Yeah. Todd: occasionally we feel that way. It feels like it can feel kinda dark. But I do Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: love Abraham just just going right into it and saying, God, what about in interceding? Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: It's that intercessory where he i it's like Jesus who sta who it says in Hebrews is our intercessor, our he's our high priest before God. So that as God views us, he's viewing us through the sacrifice and through the blood and through the forgiveness of Jesus. You know what I mean? And I and I think Yo, it's Carrie: Right, right. Todd: I think Abraham at this point is a is kind of a picture of that. And Yo, it's Carrie: Right. I wanna say something. This is kind of I'm I'm kind of looking at it metaphorically, which I don't think is the intent of it, but Todd: Bye. Yo, it's Carrie: but it's a cool way of looking at this. When you said you liked how Abraham stand like blocks blocks his path. Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: I like the idea that mercy that mercy is blocking the the judgment. Now, maybe not the judgment. Maybe mercy is blocking the Todd: It could be holding it off. Yo, it's Carrie: The destruction, sure. That that those two those two are going to they're going to be face to face is kind of how I'm Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: looking at it. And I think eventually that mercy again comes from from God Himself. But I I just like that idea that it's right there. It's right there side by side. So it's kinda like you you Todd: And we and we do have to remember Yo, it's Carrie: get to pick. You get to pick which which one am I gonna align with, you know? Todd: When we're looking at Abraham, I I do think this bears re recollection. We're looking at a guy who already saved Sodom once. And he already knew they weren't worth saving, but he loved Lot and he saved them anyway. You know what I Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: mean? So this guy standing in front of God saying, I know what these people are. I already turned them down on getting anything out of their hands, and I already saved them. Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: once I know what these people are. Are you telling me I'm more merciful than you? That's kind of what you get from and and I like because I think God can take that kind of confrontation. Because Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: we're not we're not more merciful than God, but sometimes it feels like that. So lay it out if it feels like that. You know what I mean? God hasn't forsaken Yo, it's Carrie: Sometimes it feels like that. So lay it out if it feels like that. You know what I mean? Right. He can take it. Todd: us, but if you feel like he's forsaken you. Lay it out. Be honest before God. Jesus said on the Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: cross, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Did God actually forsake Him? I don't think so necessarily, but man, I had to feel like it if you're Jesus. You know what I mean? So, yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: It had to feel like it. So It had to feel like it that whole day. Todd: I think radical honesty is really important to God. It's Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: really important for us with God. Maybe it's important for us with ourselves. You know what I mean? Yo, it's Carrie: It is. Well, you know what? And we've talked about that on the on this show too. And that is that God wants us to to bring him like our our heart completely open, full disclosure, because he already knows. Todd: Right. Yo, it's Carrie: It's just we have to humble ourselves to the point where we can be like, God, I'm like I'm weak and I'm messed up and I'm broken. you know, whatever. Fill in the blank. All your faults. He already knows them. He just wants you to bring them to him. Todd: I think if we don't acknowledge it, we feel like, well, maybe it's not, you know. But we Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: think if we acknowledge it to him, like Abraham like he says to Abraham, then I'll know. Then he'll know. And then once we acknowledge it, we can't Yo, it's Carrie: Then I'll know. Then they'll know that we can't Todd: we can't we can no longer not deal with it. Do you know what I mean? Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yes, yes, that's true. And that's it's fear, you know, it's it's our our pride preventing us from admitting things and it's our fear of yeah, once we acknowledge it, crap, I can't deny it after that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Todd: I gotta deal with it. And the only way to deal with it in anything resembling reality that I've already acknowledged by acknowledging God is repentance. Yo, it's Carrie: Yep. Todd: It's it's that it's the cross. It's that Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: that's where we find it. That's why I I felt so strongly that I felt like if we're dwelling close to the foot of the cross, this this cornell seven thing doesn't it finds forgiveness and coverage and and you know what I mean? And and And and it it doesn't that isn't what we find on social media. That isn't what we find in the kingdom of the world. You know what I mean? In the kingdom of the world Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: it's amplified and divisions are hardened and things and nothing Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: nothing is resolved because it's all so mixed up. You know what I mean? Yo, it's Carrie: And the hope in this, I think, too, is that it can sound intimidating, like, man, once I admit all this, I'm gonna ha I'm gonna have to be perfect. No, you just have you just have to give effort. You just Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: have to try you just have to try hard. That's really it. We can't be perfect, but God just wants our effort. Todd: Well, either that or you just have to give it up to Jesus is maybe an even better way because he says if you think of the remember the Pilgrim's Progress, the old story? And the Christian is like struggling with his load, struggling with his load, Yo, it's Carrie: Yes. my gosh, I haven't thought about that in so long. Todd: struggling with his load. That was written by John Bunyan. One I think next to the Bible, it's Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: one of the best selling books of all time. yeah, it's it's it's that a big and I don't even like it that much, but people love it. They're Christians. Yo, it's Carrie: Really? Pilgrim's Progress. I don't even like it that much, but I I was gonna say I like what it's about. I don't think I really liked it either. I think I I don't think I have that one anymore. I think I got rid of it. It's kinda it's long yeah, anyway, go ahead. Well you know what? It it it feels like Todd: As a writer I felt like it was a little on the nose. But But Christian str Yo, it's Carrie: it feels like really hard work and it's just like what the book is about, so go ahead. Todd: But Christian's struggling on this path and and his salvation consists in finally letting go of his burdens, of his sins, of everything Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: else, and laying it at the feet of God and saying, I can't do anything about it. And Jesus says, Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: Let me tell you a story. I already have. So yeah, Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: I I I enjoyed this. Next week we'll go we'll go into Sodom. Yo, it's Carrie: Me too. Todd: Sodom and Gomorrah will deal with the judgment of that because that's Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: a pretty well known story. A lot of people, I mean, I whether they know it real well or not, they know the basics, Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: which is, and I think everybody associates it with sexual sin, probably fair to the Bible. The Bible does too. Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: and and so yeah, we're we're gonna talk about Sodom and Gomorrah next week. See Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: what happens. I have an idea. Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah, really. It's spoiler alert, it's messy. Todd: I have an idea he didn't find ten righteous people. Yo, it's Carrie: Yikes. Todd: So but the four he found he did save. So Yo, it's Carrie: yeah, was it four? spoiler alert. Todd: Alright guys, listen, check out Toddsworld.net. Books are on there. I really think you'll love Memoir. Witnesses, just great. Beginning of the series on kind of an an end times kind of thing. Kind of it's fun. Yo, it's Carrie: It's cool. Yeah. Todd: and check out Wildly Opinionated News Hour if you haven't. Like I said, we we do Beers of Jesus every week, Wildly Opinionated News Hour every other week. Bookmark Todd's World subscribe. Carrie, what do you got? Yo, it's Carrie: I was gonna say and is it well I just wanted to say you were talking about witness, you you went into a little bit more on it, but in witness is where the Beers with Jesus title comes from. So it's fun. Todd: Yes, it is. It's chapter Beers of Jesus and that's where we didn't I didn't even know it at the time that it would turn into this and I love it. I love what we do. So Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah, it's fun. Todd: thank you for joining us guys. Subscribe. Send clips to Yo, it's Carrie: Thank you. Todd: people if you haven't you'll find clips we post Todd's World twenty twenty three on the socials Instagram, X, YouTube, whatever, TikTok, all the things, all the places where people are yelling and screaming about whatever various things. Yo, it's Carrie: We try. We try to be we try Todd: They Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah, really. Spend some time doing something constructive with us. Todd: All right guys, thanks for joining us today. We will catch you next week for Sodom and Gomorrah. Todd's world. Yo, it's Carrie: Woo. Bye. Todd: Thanks, Gary. See ya.