Latest / First Touch | World Soccer / Man City to Wagatha: Biggest Scandals | First Touch Weekly

Transcript

Man City to Wagatha: Biggest Scandals | First Touch Weekly · First Touch | World Soccer

0:00
The more brazen they get in the short
0:02
term is great, but the anger builds because
0:03
what you're doing now is it becomes pride
0:05
and you start humiliating people who regard themselves
0:07
as apex predators, as alpha males.
0:10
You're humiliating, you're rubbing their noses and you
0:12
are rubbing the noses of executives in the
0:15
dirt, executives who've never been bullied before.
0:17
That's and that for them is going to
0:19
be so personal.
0:21
And what City are doing is they keep
0:22
going, they continue to make it personal against
0:24
these execs.
0:25
That puts them in dangerous territory.
0:27
Hello everyone and welcome to First Touch Weekly,
0:30
the American home for the global game.
0:33
We're glad you're here.
0:34
I'm Susannah Fuller.
0:36
Well, Manchester City's financial rule breaches stay dominating
0:41
the news.
0:42
Shocker.
0:43
For more on the nitty gritty of that
0:45
situation, make sure you check out this week's
0:47
First Touch Dispatch.
0:48
But in honor of that story, one of
0:51
the best football scandals we've seen in a
0:53
while, by the way, I chatted with my
0:56
good friend Musa Okwonga from the brilliant Stadio
0:59
podcast about some of the biggest football cheating
1:02
scandals in history.
1:04
It was juicy and it was so much
1:07
fun.
1:07
But first, let's get to some news.
1:11
Former Manchester United manager Eric Ten Hag has
1:14
hit out at his former player, Cristiano Ronaldo,
1:17
alleging that the Portuguese striker let the team
1:20
down during their time together at Manchester United.
1:23
In an interview with The Athletic, Ten Hag
1:25
said Ronaldo missed training sessions, did not reach
1:29
the required heart rate levels when he did
1:31
train, and completed only two of three laps
1:34
during a running drill imposed after a 4
1:36
-0 loss to Brentford back in August of
1:38
2022, encouraging other players to save their legs
1:42
as well.
1:43
The pair had a rocky spell at Manchester
1:45
United, which lasted just seven months from April
1:48
2022 when Ten Hag took over until November
1:51
of that same year when Ronaldo departed the
1:54
club after a clash with the Dutch manager.
1:56
It's always murky when you're dealing with a
1:58
he-said-he-said situation, but CR7 does
2:02
have a pattern of acting out.
2:05
I mean, he's currently serving a 30-day
2:07
suspension and a fine of 255 euros by
2:11
the Portuguese Football Federation for leaving his country's
2:14
international camp last month.
2:17
Three-time European champion Sarina Wiegman has extended
2:21
her contract with the England women's national team
2:24
through 2029.
2:26
Welcome news for the fans of the Lionesses,
2:28
but maybe not so much for the rest
2:31
of the world.
2:32
Wiegmann's contract was originally supposed to run through
2:35
next summer's Women's World Cup, but will now
2:37
stay on through the 2029 European Championships.
2:41
Under Wiegman, who took over in 2021, the
2:44
Lionesses have enjoyed unprecedented success, including two European
2:49
Championships in 2022 and 2025, as well as
2:53
a World Cup final appearance in 2023.
2:56
Wiegmann will oversee an important period for England
2:58
as she navigates playing an aging generation with
3:02
bringing in young talent, but if anyone can
3:05
do it, it's the five-time winner of
3:08
the Best FIFA Women's Coach Award.
3:11
Speaking of awards, the Ballon d'Or awards
3:14
ceremony will take place next Monday.
3:17
Held in London for the first time and
3:20
hosted by my former colleagues Kate Scott and
3:23
Thierry Henry, the event will dole out the
3:25
following awards.
3:26
The Men and Women's Ballon d'Or, the
3:29
Men's and Women's Young Talent of the Year,
3:32
the Men's and Women's Goalkeeper of the Year,
3:34
Men's and Women's Coach of the Year, Men's
3:36
and Women's Club of the Year, and Men's
3:39
and Women's Striker of the Year.
3:42
Now, most of these awards are really wide
3:45
open races.
3:46
On the Men's Ballon d'Or side, you've
3:48
got Lamine Yamal, Harry Kane, Kylian Mbappe, and
3:51
Leo Messi as top candidates.
3:53
And for the women, Alexia Putellas, Ewa Pajor,
3:57
and Temwa Chawinga are the frontrunners.
4:00
In some of the other categories, I've got
4:02
Lily Yohannes for Young Talent of the Year.
4:04
I want to show some U.S. love.
4:07
Luis Enrique for Coach of the Year, and
4:10
Unai Simon for Keeper of the Year, following
4:13
his outstanding performances for Spain and Atletico Madrid.
4:18
All right, let's get to my chat with
4:21
Musa.
4:22
This is so good.
4:25
Musa Okwunga, welcome back to First Touch Weekly.
4:29
I'm really excited to chat with you today
4:31
because we're going to dive into the delicious
4:37
world of football scandals, Musa.
4:42
Obviously, it's very topical right now because we
4:44
are in the midst of the fallout from
4:47
the Manchester City cheating scandal, which we will
4:50
hit on shortly.
4:52
But before we get there, I want to
4:55
talk about scandal in general, because I feel
4:59
over the years in football, there have been
5:02
many, and some of them have been incredibly,
5:07
incredibly egregious and infuriating at times.
5:11
But having said that, is it wrong, Musa,
5:14
that sometimes I kind of love a good
5:17
footballing scandal?
5:18
I think it's human, I think, in the
5:20
same way that gossip is intriguing.
5:23
I've been thinking a lot about why football
5:25
is such an addictive sport, and I think
5:27
it's because it's the sport that most clearly
5:29
mirrors the human condition.
5:31
No real do-overs, like injustice.
5:34
Like a game of basketball, for example, there's
5:37
so many opportunities to score that the injustices
5:39
are fewer because there are more scoring opportunities.
5:41
But football, it's so much harder to score
5:43
a goal than to score a basket.
5:44
But you can be brilliant and still lose
5:47
1-0, right?
5:47
And you can be cheated because the margins
5:49
are small.
5:50
And I think this is what it is.
5:51
At some level, it's like, ah, football resembles
5:55
real life.
5:56
That's profound, and I completely agree.
5:59
What makes a good footballing scandal?
6:01
What are sort of the key ingredients that
6:04
make one more compelling over others?
6:07
Well, what makes a good villain?
6:09
There needs to be an element of charm.
6:10
If you look at Manchester City, right?
6:12
I don't think it's so compelling a scandal
6:14
if Pep Guardiola is not a coach, right?
6:17
Because this is like a seductive figure, like
6:19
every kind of supervillain needs that charm.
6:22
You look at the Joker, the scene in
6:24
The Dark Knight when the Joker walks in,
6:26
he's like, well, hello, beautiful.
6:28
And he does his hair to one side.
6:29
But it's Heath Ledger, right?
6:30
So even though he's got this grotesque makeup
6:32
on, it's still one of the most handsome
6:33
human beings that will ever exist.
6:35
So there's that element of like, you know,
6:37
especially like young Pep.
6:38
Charisma, I think wealth, prestige.
6:42
There's this kind of like, there's an elitism,
6:44
there's an inequality.
6:45
Also scandal.
6:46
I think there's a sense of, if you
6:47
look at the big football scandals, there's a
6:50
sense of like barging away into the old
6:51
money elite.
6:52
That is like a big seductive, like element
6:55
conversation.
6:56
There needs to be aesthetics.
6:57
Like I think that a true scandal, the
6:59
aesthetics are either enjoyed by the scandalous team
7:02
or they're being uprooted.
7:03
So we're either having this team that plays
7:06
beautiful football, but the underbelly is quite murky
7:08
or a team which has got everything, which
7:12
deserves everything, but is somehow like undermined by
7:15
a malign force.
7:16
So there's got to be like a fundamental
7:18
unfairness to it.
7:19
I think that that has to exist.
7:21
Yeah.
7:21
It is.
7:22
It's a, it's a soap opera.
7:23
All right.
7:24
So if you guys are not caught up
7:26
on the, the Manchester city scandal, we'll give
7:29
you a quick little synopsis here.
7:31
So basically Manchester city was found guilty of
7:34
breaching over 100 financial rules, spanning several seasons.
7:39
They were misleading sponsorship deals, inflated revenue, and
7:42
helped hide the club's true finances by more
7:44
than 900 million pounds.
7:47
City has denied any wrongdoing.
7:50
But now we're at the point where the
7:53
club could face some huge fines, point deductions,
7:56
possibly expulsion from the Premier League.
7:59
We don't know yet.
7:59
We are, we are in this murky area
8:01
where right now it is just all sort
8:03
of speculation.
8:05
Where are you at with this?
8:06
Because I feel like I have run sort
8:07
of the gamut of, of emotions when I've
8:11
been thinking about this.
8:13
Yeah.
8:14
Anger, a lot of anger.
8:16
And then a little bit of like, almost
8:18
throwing my hands up in the air of
8:20
like, it seems like nothing's really, there's not
8:22
really going to be the repercussions.
8:24
Like the, the punishment will not fit the
8:27
crime.
8:27
And so like a little bit of like
8:29
complacency on my end of just like, well,
8:31
it's city.
8:31
They're probably going to get away with it.
8:34
The anger came back when I watched Liverpool
8:36
get smacked three nil.
8:38
I don't know.
8:38
I'm also kind of like exhausted thinking about
8:41
this because it does.
8:42
I I'm wondering, I'm wondering if because Manchester
8:44
City is the club and has the stature
8:47
that it does, like they might get away
8:49
with it pretty unscathed.
8:51
I think it's unavoidably unfair, right?
8:53
It's like going away on holiday and then
8:54
coming back to find that your rent or
8:55
your mortgage was unaffordable.
8:58
It's like coming back to find that your
8:59
rent or your mortgage tripled after a month
9:01
away.
9:02
Like it's, that's the level of unfairness or
9:04
it's like starting a game of amateur football.
9:06
Let's say you've got like God children or
9:08
kids.
9:08
It's like starting every game three nil down
9:10
or one nil down.
9:12
Like it's fundamentally unfair, but human beings were
9:15
incredible at adjusting to unfairness, right?
9:18
We're incredible at adjusting to unfairness and we
9:20
adjust to a lot of things that we
9:22
shouldn't adjust to.
9:23
And I think the thing about football that's
9:24
made it so difficult is that these sports
9:26
are meant to be our safe spaces, right?
9:27
We're meant to have our escapism, but we
9:29
can't even escape.
9:30
There was a time when we could escape
9:31
the unfairness of the world through sport and
9:33
now we can't.
9:35
And we don't mean the odd injustice.
9:37
We don't mean the odd like bad decision.
9:38
We mean a longstanding structural injustice.
9:41
It's different getting a bad refereeing decision to
9:44
starting a game of football and the referee
9:46
is wearing a shirt with the shirt sponsor
9:48
of your opponent.
9:49
So you're like, you're not going to get
9:50
this very, do you see what I mean?
9:51
That's the difference.
9:52
The permanent unfairness of this is what I
9:55
think is going to be the end of
9:57
City as a major force.
9:59
What I mean by that is, I don't
10:01
even think the major protests are going to
10:03
be a Liverpool, a direct rival.
10:04
I think it's going to be a spontaneous
10:05
thing.
10:06
I think what we'll do for City will
10:07
be, if anything, if the sanctions are heavy,
10:10
it will be because some club you would
10:12
not regard as a traditional rival of City
10:15
would just like spontaneously do a boycott and
10:16
be like, we're not doing this.
10:18
Because if you think of like how degrading
10:20
those defeats were, like City were absolutely stacked
10:22
in those prime years, 2009 to 2018, you
10:26
think of the clubs whose self-esteem they
10:28
destroyed with like a five nil defeat.
10:30
When you're feeding yourself, you're out in the
10:31
Premier League and City just hammer you and
10:34
you never fully recover from it.
10:35
Like you think of that, like Watford getting
10:36
done in the FA Cup final six nil
10:39
and like what their day out.
10:40
The day out was a big day out.
10:41
It was ruined.
10:42
First FA Cup final since the 1980s and
10:45
you get like a full on humiliation from
10:47
a team that's been financially doping.
10:49
The reason why I'm talking like this is
10:50
because I think it's still in the balance.
10:52
I don't think I think it's still to
10:54
play for.
10:55
And I think that every bit of outrage,
10:57
every critique, every bit of anger, I think
11:00
the Premier League now they're uniquely susceptible to
11:03
the infection of good ideas.
11:05
You know, when your immune system's down and
11:07
the Premier League's immune system is down, you
11:08
catch stuff more easily.
11:09
This is the time to actually weigh in
11:11
with all your like, with all your anger.
11:13
Like this is the time.
11:14
This is actually the time to be angry
11:15
and not give up and be like, no,
11:16
this is disgusting.
11:17
This is not a spectacle anymore.
11:18
You've cheapened something beautiful by allowing this apex
11:23
predator, this financial apex predator into the league.
11:26
How confident are you then that they will
11:29
suffer after this?
11:31
The more brazen they get, if they'd come
11:33
out and been like, oh my God, you
11:35
know, tail between the legs a bit.
11:37
Yeah.
11:37
If they'd come up and done that and
11:38
be like, oh no, we're sorry.
11:39
Then they'd be like, if they'd come out
11:41
and done that, but the more brazen they
11:43
get in the short term is great.
11:45
But the anger builds because what you're doing
11:46
now is it becomes pride and you start
11:48
humiliating people who regard themselves as apex predators,
11:52
as alpha males.
11:52
You're humiliating, you're rubbing their noses and you
11:55
are rubbing the noses of executives in the
11:58
dirt, executives who've never been bullied before.
12:00
That's, and that for them is going to
12:02
be so personal.
12:04
And what Citi are doing is they keep
12:05
going.
12:06
They continue to make it personal against those
12:07
execs.
12:08
That puts them in dangerous territory.
12:09
And they poke the bear.
12:13
Enzo Maresca, following the Liverpool match, he basically
12:19
said that, you know, we should feel bad
12:21
for the City fans.
12:23
You know, they're really putting up with it
12:25
right now.
12:26
And I'm curious to get your take on
12:30
Maresca's comments.
12:31
You know who he is?
12:32
He's Anthony Scaramucci.
12:35
Do you remember when Scaramucci, yes.
12:36
I mean, essentially he's poking, but it's making
12:39
people even angrier by like, no one's, no
12:42
one feels bad for City fans.
12:44
They had years of, of celebrations and trophies.
12:49
But I thought I was, I was, I
12:50
was honestly shocked when I heard him say
12:52
that.
12:53
Cause I was like, what, like how sort
12:56
of tone deaf are you at?
12:58
Totally.
12:58
He's Scaramucci.
12:59
He was brought in to be a triumphalist.
13:02
They went and got double down, triple down
13:04
Maresca.
13:05
I coached Enzo Fernandez of Chelsea when he
13:07
was surrounded by a racism storm.
13:08
I made him captain, even though he was
13:10
not the second best midfielder, arguably in that
13:13
midfield.
13:13
I made a player who was maybe not
13:15
even the best midfielder.
13:16
Well, arguably, well certainly not the best midfielder
13:18
in that team.
13:18
I made him into the actual captain.
13:20
That's what Enzo Maresca is.
13:21
And he thrives on that.
13:23
He feasts off that.
13:24
Citi are happy to ride that all the
13:26
way until the wheels fall off.
13:27
But I think if they carry on like
13:29
this, I think they're creating too many enemies.
13:32
Like they're making people think about them.
13:34
What they should have done was appoint somebody
13:36
who would just keep it quiet and boring.
13:38
How do you think Pep would have handled
13:40
this?
13:41
Pep wouldn't have handled it.
13:42
That's why Pep's gone.
13:43
That's why he's gone.
13:44
Pep wouldn't have handled it.
13:45
Cause that's where I was watching the Pep
13:47
documentary series.
13:49
I was fully prepared to watch that and
13:52
think less of him.
13:54
But I, I walked away, you know, in
13:56
the back of my head being like, you
13:58
know, the club was, was cheating this, this
14:01
whole time.
14:01
But I still respected how he behaved as
14:04
a, as a manager in my head.
14:06
I was like, well, maybe he, maybe he
14:08
didn't know.
14:09
And then I was like, there's no way
14:10
he didn't know.
14:10
There's no way he didn't know.
14:12
Of course.
14:12
I'll tell you why he didn't know.
14:14
You know, I think he knew because look
14:15
why he left Barcelona because of the board.
14:17
He was aware, Pep is someone who he's
14:20
aware of the board dynamics.
14:21
He's such a smart guy, multiple languages, eloquent
14:24
on human rights issues.
14:26
Pep reads, Pep pays attention.
14:27
His tragedy is that he's self aware enough
14:30
to know how complicit he is.
14:32
He's not someone that just lives and breathes
14:34
football and nothing else.
14:34
He's the kind of person that if you
14:35
met Pep and like, if you had the
14:37
chance to get upgraded to business, assuming you
14:39
don't normally fly business, if you have the
14:40
chance to get upgraded to business and you
14:42
met him, the departure lounge and the flight
14:43
was delayed by a couple of hours, you
14:45
would talk to him for all those two
14:47
hours.
14:47
And you wouldn't know what he did for
14:48
a living.
14:49
And by the end you leave with a
14:50
reading list of like five new novels, some
14:52
great restaurants and be like, I got that,
14:53
this guy is so interesting.
14:55
Like he's so, he's generally one of the
14:57
most interesting people I could imagine being stuck
14:58
in an airport lounge with and not know
15:00
what he did for a living.
15:01
He's charismatic, smart, he's worldly, he's thoughtful and
15:05
he's entirely aware of the pact he made.
15:08
I have no doubt about that.
15:09
And I say that because he was at
15:10
the City PSG game.
15:12
Yes, he was.
15:13
And that's weird.
15:14
I thought that was strange as well.
15:17
I thought like a hostage video.
15:18
It looked weird.
15:19
What was going on?
15:20
He was just sitting in the crowd going,
15:21
yeah, sit in.
15:22
I'm like, Pep, what are you doing here?
15:24
It's like a climate scientist anxiously watching the
15:28
glacial melt.
15:29
He's just sitting there staring going, when is
15:31
this going to create an avalanche?
15:34
And what will it do to his managerial
15:38
legacy?
15:39
He's going to be one of football's, he's
15:40
destined to be one of football's tragic figures.
15:42
I think he's going to be one of
15:43
those tragic figures because the football that Barcelona
15:45
played in 2011 was the absolute peak, right?
15:49
It was incredible.
15:49
And I wonder if, if Pep gets a
15:51
do over, he fell out with Tito Villanova,
15:54
you know, his dear friend, and then his
15:55
friend passed, like they had that incredible managerial
15:58
team.
15:58
I wonder if they could go back in
16:00
time.
16:01
If they stay at Barca, they take a
16:02
year out and come back or do something
16:04
else.
16:04
I don't know, but that's just the point.
16:06
City's, there's a point of Pep's career where
16:08
he takes the wrong path.
16:09
It's, it's, it's tragic.
16:10
No, it's genuine tragedy.
16:11
He's, he's the greatest, his teams have played
16:14
the greatest football I think I will ever
16:15
watch.
16:15
I do not believe I will ever see
16:17
a club side play better football than 2011
16:19
Barcelona.
16:19
I would agree with that.
16:20
I don't think it's possible.
16:21
I would agree with that.
16:22
And all of that could just be completely
16:24
sort of erased.
16:26
Totally.
16:27
Wild, wild, wild times.
16:30
Let's move along to another scandal, another scandal.
16:33
But this one took place in Italy.
16:37
The Calciopoli scandal in 2006 basically involved a
16:42
few top clubs, mainly Juventus, whose officials were
16:46
accused of influencing referee appointments to gain favorable
16:50
treatments during matches.
16:52
And it's interesting.
16:53
They were found, their phones were wiretapped is
16:56
very mission impossible.
16:58
They were basically investigating unrelated doping charges, but
17:03
then through these wiretaps found out that they
17:05
were paying off referees and Juventus ended up
17:09
being stripped of their Serie A title from
17:13
0405.
17:14
They were relegated to Serie B.
17:16
It put a massive, massive stain on Italian
17:20
football in general.
17:23
There were other clubs involved, Milan, Fiorentina, Lazio.
17:28
So looking back on this, what are your
17:31
memories of, of this scandal in, in Italy
17:34
Musa?
17:34
You know, it's wild.
17:35
My thoughts immediately went back to, um, to
17:38
the Brazilian Ronaldo when they had the title
17:40
race with Del Piero and Ronaldo, and there
17:43
was this whole controversy of a penalty that
17:44
was not awarded.
17:46
And then Del Piero goes down, goes down
17:47
the other end and scores an astonishing goal.
17:50
And that ends up deciding the Juve Inter.
17:52
And that inter team led by the Brazilian
17:55
Ronaldo was astonishing.
17:57
Like it was absolutely astonishing.
17:59
And I remember my thoughts came back to
18:00
that and being like, this is what they
18:02
always feared.
18:03
Like there were all kinds of decisions around
18:06
Juventus at that time.
18:07
And I'm not saying that that one in
18:07
particular was wrong, but there was a sense
18:10
of unfairness.
18:11
And when it came out, I think this
18:14
was around the time that like, it was
18:15
not the same time, but around the same
18:17
sort of within the sort of 10 year
18:18
period, two very famous Italian judges were murdered
18:21
for their investigation.
18:24
Yeah.
18:25
Borsalino and his friend, they were murdered within
18:26
a few weeks of each other.
18:28
They were like really close friends and they
18:30
got murdered because they were like looking into
18:32
like mafia dealings.
18:34
And this was all part of it.
18:35
There was this whole conversation in Italy around
18:38
sort of civil society and unfairness.
18:40
And what was happening on the field was
18:41
mirroring what was happening off it.
18:43
And it was a real kind of like
18:44
moral, spiritual reckoning from which I think some,
18:47
I don't know if Juventus ever fully recovered.
18:49
I know they got to Champions League final,
18:51
but in 2015, but in terms of the
18:53
prestige of the Juventus project, I don't think
18:57
they ever fully recovered.
18:58
Interesting.
18:59
That was going to be one of my
18:59
questions to you.
19:00
Like, is this something that still sort of
19:02
hangs in the ether over the club?
19:04
I think it does because it's like, it's
19:07
like, how did it get there?
19:08
Like you look at Bayern Munich, no one
19:10
looks at Bayern Munich for all their dominance
19:11
and goes, yeah, you cheated your way there.
19:15
It's not really a thing people do, but
19:17
Juventus, I think, I think it's different.
19:19
Like even just thinking about them, like from
19:21
the, they're the big bad.
19:22
It's one thing being the supervillain, right?
19:24
But if you're the supervillain, you don't want
19:26
to get there by, by cheating.
19:27
You want to be the one that always
19:28
denies hope to the kind of the less
19:29
powerful, but not unfairly.
19:31
I don't think Juventus ever recovered from it.
19:33
I don't think they did.
19:35
Do you think that it's fair?
19:38
Because I mean, the, the executives in, that
19:41
were basically in charge were faced long-term,
19:45
lifetime fans from Italian football.
19:47
You know, Juventus as it is today, say,
19:50
is it fair that this sort of legacy...
19:56
Now let's...
19:58
If Milli Vanilli started releasing new material...
20:00
That is some serious BS what happened to
20:02
Milli Vanilli.
20:02
Well, but you see what I'm saying?
20:04
If, if, if, if, if somebody who was
20:07
known for like, I started release and it
20:10
was incredible.
20:11
They'd be like, yeah, but that hangs over
20:12
you.
20:12
And they're like, yeah, but I'm a different
20:13
person.
20:14
Well, totally.
20:15
But it just, it is unfortunate that this
20:17
is the thing aura once it's lost is
20:20
very difficult.
20:21
What about, so the aura of Italian football,
20:24
did it, how, how badly did it, did
20:26
it damage that from a larger lens?
20:29
I think the inequalities in, in, in the,
20:31
I think the Premier League, unfortunately, was what
20:33
broke a lot of Italian football because it
20:35
was what was affordable, right?
20:36
So I want to give, I want to
20:38
give Italian clubs some grace because a lot
20:40
of them are developing players the right way,
20:42
had a great academy systems, but then the
20:45
Premier League just can strip you.
20:46
I mean, you look at like Rasmus Højlund,
20:48
right?
20:49
That's nothing to do with corruption.
20:50
That's pure financial inequalities that Rasmus Højlund, Atalanta
20:54
got off at 70 million Euros and they
20:56
sell him to, to Manchester United because why
20:58
not?
20:59
Whereas that's the thing you couldn't have done.
21:01
If you had a brilliant young talent in
21:03
the mid nineties, a Premier League club could
21:05
not have thrown that amount of money to
21:07
get them out of Italy because Italy was
21:09
the place to be.
21:10
Actually, interestingly, it's becoming the place to be
21:12
again for footballers.
21:13
So it's having a Renaissance, I would say.
21:17
But yeah, I think it took a long
21:18
time for Italy to recover, but not just
21:20
because of the scandals.
21:21
I think also because of the financial inequalities.
21:23
Yeah.
21:24
Yeah.
21:25
It's, it's, it is interesting though, that they,
21:28
this happened and then, you know, they ended
21:30
up winning the World Cup in 2006.
21:36
Like that, it was crazy.
21:38
Well, it's just, it goes to show how
21:39
good their football infrastructure development was.
21:41
This is the irony.
21:42
They didn't have to do it.
21:43
They didn't.
21:45
It was unnecessary.
21:47
They didn't have to do it, but then
21:48
this is, Man City didn't have to do
21:50
it.
21:50
This is the thing.
21:51
It's the problem.
21:51
It's the entitlement.
21:53
It's wanting control when you don't need it.
21:55
Like it's the assertion of control for the
21:57
sake of control.
21:58
Juventus had the players to win those titles,
22:01
but they had people at board level who
22:03
wanted to guarantee victory.
22:05
Let's move it along to the Marseille scandal
22:09
of 1993.
22:12
So the scenario was basically just six days
22:15
before facing Milan in a Champions League final.
22:18
Marseille needed a win against Valenciennes to secure
22:23
the French league title.
22:25
But Marseille officials were basically accused of bribing
22:29
the opposing team players, Valenciennes players to deliberately
22:32
underperform and avoid injuring Marseille stars before the
22:38
Champions League final.
22:40
So, and then one guy, one guy on
22:43
Valenciennes team, Jacques Glassman, refused.
22:48
He said, absolutely not.
22:49
I'm not taking your money.
22:51
I am not going to underperform.
22:52
He exposed the whole scheme.
22:56
So Marseille ended up winning that game one
22:58
nil, and then they beat Milan one nil
23:00
to become European champions.
23:02
But then the fallout from this big scandal
23:05
happens, and they were stripped of their league
23:09
title.
23:10
They were relegated to the second division and
23:13
basically banned from defending their European crown.
23:18
They were allowed to keep their Champions League
23:20
trophy, which I find very interesting.
23:24
I think a lot of them think it
23:26
was worth it.
23:27
I'll tell you why.
23:28
Because, see, they got to the cup final.
23:31
They got to the same final in 1991
23:33
against Red Star Belgrade, and they'd lost on penalties.
23:37
And there was a conversation around, like, how
23:39
long had this attempt at bribing been happening,
23:42
right?
23:42
There's conversations about Marseille that it wasn't, and
23:45
put it more delicately, I don't think that
23:47
the Valenciennes game was the one time that
23:50
Bernard Tapie, the owner, attempted this.
23:53
And if you think about 91 and now
23:54
93, you get to two finals in three
23:57
years.
23:59
Are you feeling the writing on the wall,
24:00
is it now or never?
24:01
Like, if you think about 94, 95, what
24:04
happens in 94?
24:05
Milan come back, and they put on a
24:07
masterclass against Barca, right, who were still lurking
24:09
around the edges.
24:10
Then 95, you get Ajax, then Juventus.
24:13
Basically, there was a small window for Marseille
24:16
to get this done.
24:17
And having lost in 91, I'm sure they
24:19
were thinking, we can't afford to lose this
24:21
again.
24:22
And a lot of them, they look back
24:23
in time, actually, it was worth it.
24:25
Smash and grab.
24:26
I mean, this is the way that I
24:27
look at it.
24:27
It's our last chance at the table.
24:28
We got there against that Red Star team
24:30
and that Milan team in the final.
24:33
Look who is against them.
24:34
Maldini, Lentini, Albertini, Rijkaard, Donadoni, van Basten.
24:37
To be on that pitch, how hard it
24:40
is to get to Champions League final, and
24:41
you've done it two years out of three.
24:43
And it's owned by a guy who's not
24:45
used to taking no for an answer.
24:47
I think that was a smash and grab.
24:51
It's bleak to say it, but there's a
24:52
perspective where that was like, yeah, job well
24:55
done.
24:55
And the thing is, there's an exceptional Marseille
24:57
team.
24:58
Exceptional.
24:59
But the fact again, they were not ready
25:00
to leave it to doubt.
25:02
What were the repercussions for Marseille?
25:05
I was on my mid-teens, and I
25:07
remember it being really, really, really shocking.
25:11
They never fully recovered.
25:13
They never got to the Champions League final
25:15
again.
25:16
They had some deep runs in the competition,
25:18
but they were tainted by it.
25:19
They didn't save them, I think, was because
25:21
they had not established themselves as a traditional
25:24
huge power.
25:25
They're a big club, don't get me wrong.
25:26
But in terms of traditional huge European power,
25:28
they weren't one.
25:29
They were still upstart slash underdog.
25:32
I think what it did was, I think
25:33
it hurt their ascent.
25:34
If they'd won that Champions League fair and
25:37
square, they could have gone on to be
25:40
Champions League royalty, which they're not.
25:42
Oh, man.
25:43
All right, let's move it along.
25:44
The disgrace of Gijon, which was the controversial
25:47
1982 FIFA World Cup match between West Germany
25:52
and Austria.
25:54
Basically, it was the final group stage match.
25:57
West Germany needed a 1-0 or a
25:58
2-0 win against Austria for both of
26:01
them to advance to the next round, which
26:04
would then eliminate Algeria.
26:07
Algeria had already played their final group match
26:10
the day before.
26:12
West Germany scores early in the 10th minute.
26:15
They mix it 1-0.
26:17
Then for the remaining 80 minutes, both teams
26:21
just essentially stopped playing, just kind of passing
26:26
the ball around, kicking it around, avoiding anyone
26:32
to score, because at that point, both teams
26:33
were advancing.
26:36
So the Algeria fans were obviously, and rightfully
26:42
so, outraged, completely outraged.
26:45
It was just such a terrible, terrible look
26:49
for both teams.
26:50
There's level to this though, because it's like
26:51
colonial too.
26:52
I know.
26:53
It's colonial vibes.
26:54
It's colonial.
26:54
They're basic cousins.
26:56
West Germany and Austria, they're basically like extended
27:00
family.
27:01
Exactly, exactly.
27:02
Dividing up the pie.
27:03
And then you've got this African nation, this
27:05
upstart with this great generation and just the
27:09
injustice of it.
27:10
So a few years later, five years later,
27:12
Porto beat Bayern Munich in the European Cup
27:15
final.
27:16
They beat them 2-1.
27:17
And one of the goalscorers is Algerian.
27:20
And I just wonder, I just wonder like
27:22
what historical beefs were laid to rest.
27:25
Yeah, I wonder.
27:28
I wonder.
27:28
I wonder.
27:28
Yeah, Rabah Madjer, one of the greatest Algerian
27:31
players.
27:32
I wonder if that's like a thing.
27:34
That must have been a thing.
27:36
Has to be.
27:37
He scored a legendary back heel in the final
27:40
and then he set up the winner against
27:42
Germany's jewel, Bayern Munich.
27:45
It gets better.
27:46
It gets better.
27:47
Sorry, I'm just, I'm literally just picking this
27:48
up.
27:48
No, this is exciting.
27:49
Okay.
27:49
So, okay.
27:50
Okay.
27:50
So, okay.
27:51
How do I start?
27:52
So at the time that they scored this
27:53
goal against Bayern Munich, Bayern Munich at that
27:55
point, it was still West Germany, right?
27:56
Before unification.
27:58
So an Algerian scores the equalizing goal in
28:01
the 1987 European Cup final against the West
28:04
Germany.
28:04
What country is the final being played in?
28:06
Austria.
28:07
Austria.
28:08
Of course it's Austria.
28:09
He scores it in Austria.
28:11
He scores a back heel in Austria against the
28:13
West German team.
28:15
And it leads to Porto being the first,
28:16
it was the first Portuguese team to win,
28:18
to win the European Cup.
28:20
Still the only one.
28:22
He got his revenge.
28:23
He got Algeria's revenge.
28:24
That is, that's poetic.
28:26
I literally just discovered that now.
28:27
My mind is blown anyway.
28:29
So that's poetic.
28:30
It's poetic.
28:32
Is that the first time that's been deconstructed
28:34
like this?
28:34
I don't know.
28:35
I mean, the first, that's the first that
28:36
I have heard of it, but I think
28:38
that is tremendous.
28:40
My mind is blown.
28:42
We've got the intel.
28:46
Oh my gosh.
28:47
Wow.
28:48
That was fantastic.
28:49
That was exhilarating.
28:51
Actually.
28:51
It was like, you know, you're like watching
28:53
you figure it out as, oh, what a
28:55
treat.
28:56
This is like, I was like, hang on
28:57
a minute.
28:57
Rob and Marge are like, I know this
28:58
is, I know something happened there.
29:00
Wow.
29:01
That was, that was something.
29:03
It was one of my, my favorite moments
29:05
I've had podcasting.
29:06
So thank you.
29:07
Thank you for that Musa.
29:08
I want to, I want to discuss one
29:10
more with you, which isn't really a cheating
29:12
scandal, but it affected the footballing world and
29:16
one that I could not get enough of.
29:19
And that was the Wagatha Christie.
29:25
I mean, this just, this, this gripped Britain
29:29
and certainly me.
29:31
So this, this involved, this was in 2019
29:33
Coleen Rooney, wife of Wayne Rooney suspected that
29:39
someone was leaking her private Instagram stories to
29:43
the press.
29:44
So she basically set up a trap and
29:46
she was posting fake stories visible, visible to
29:50
only one person that she suspected was the
29:55
villain in the story.
29:56
And that would be the wife of Jamie
29:59
Vardy, Rebekah Vardy.
30:01
And the, the famous, the infamous, I think,
30:05
tweet that she put out.
30:06
And it was, it was Rebekah Vardy's account.
30:11
And it was like the big reveal that
30:14
it was Rebekah Vardy who had been leaking
30:16
these these stories to the press and photos
30:20
to the press.
30:21
And it, I mean, it was just delicious.
30:23
I, I loved it because it was like
30:25
Wayne Rooney and, and Jamie Vardy are, I
30:30
don't want to, they come across as just
30:33
a bit, a bit clueless.
30:35
I've got thoughts.
30:36
I've got thoughts on this.
30:36
Please give it to me.
30:38
So if you think of like when this
30:40
all happens, it's like 2019, 2020, right?
30:43
So at this point, Wayne Rooney is in
30:45
physical decline, right?
30:47
Yes.
30:47
Incredible footballer, but just his body catches up
30:49
with him.
30:50
Like he's played so much football at the
30:51
highest level.
30:52
His metabolism wasn't always the best, um, fitness,
30:55
you know, whatever.
30:56
So it's not always on his side.
30:57
So he's based in physical decline after being
31:00
maybe like top three English footballers we've ever
31:03
seen.
31:03
Like it's exceptional footballer, right?
31:06
Jamie Vardy is in the ascendancy, right?
31:08
So he's in, he's won the, um, the
31:10
premier league in 20, uh, 16 against all
31:13
odds.
31:14
Like his stock is really high.
31:16
They've been catapulting the same, this sort of
31:18
stratosphere.
31:19
So it's almost like they're arriving in this
31:21
stratosphere and Rooney's in it, but his star
31:24
is fading.
31:25
So this is almost like a kind of,
31:28
are we Colleen, you know, Colleen Rooney and
31:30
like Rebekah Vardy, it's almost like, oh, we're
31:32
in the same universe and maybe we're kind
31:34
of like, we're the up and coming force
31:36
and we need to catapult ourselves.
31:38
Can we do that by undermining what they've
31:41
got going?
31:42
And like Wayne Rooney, actually, I think, you
31:43
know, as a pundit, extremely interesting, one of
31:46
the most interesting people on the, uh, on
31:47
the halftime part of the world cup.
31:49
It's a bit crap, incredible.
31:50
Like just, and if you look at the
31:52
range of teammates he's played with and how
31:54
they talk about him, right.
31:55
If you look at the combinations, the striking
31:57
combinations, he forms different partners, players, profiles, Louis
32:01
Saha, Van Persie, clearly a very smart footballer
32:03
and a beloved footballer.
32:05
Jamie Vardy, I think is more of a
32:07
kind of laddish cunning, but shrewd because you
32:12
don't get from being that player.
32:13
I mean, how many Jamie Vardys don't make
32:15
it.
32:16
If you think of his quality, he's like
32:18
one of those prize fighters, the MMA fighters
32:20
that like, you know what I mean?
32:22
Like for every Jamie Vardy, there's 50 guys
32:24
sitting at home going, I was better than
32:26
him.
32:26
How the hell did he get there?
32:27
Yeah.
32:28
So they clearly a formidable team, Rebekah Vardy
32:30
and Jamie Vardy.
32:32
What they weren't ready for.
32:34
This is the point I'm coming to.
32:35
They were not ready for the elite level
32:39
wag.
32:39
It was Coleen Rooney.
32:40
That's the final boss.
32:41
That's the final boss.
32:42
That's why this was so intriguing.
32:43
I'm like, you went at the queen.
32:45
She went to the queen.
32:47
Omar said, when you come at the queen,
32:48
you best not miss the paraphrase of the
32:49
great Omar.
32:50
Yeah.
32:50
She did.
32:51
This is why it fascinated me.
32:52
I'm like, you could have befriended her, but
32:54
you were insecure.
32:55
You wanted to take her throne because you
32:56
were like, there can't be two of us.
32:58
There can be only one.
33:00
This is you.
33:01
And you didn't want to kiss the ring
33:02
because he looked, you went into queen Coleen's
33:04
court and he thought, I'm not kissing the
33:06
ring.
33:06
I'm going to break the wheel.
33:08
She thought she was the nearest Targaryen and
33:12
she unleashed all her dragons.
33:14
And one by one, they got picked off.
33:16
They got picked off.
33:18
Oh God.
33:18
It was so fascinating.
33:19
It was so delicious.
33:22
They did a docuseries on the entire ordeal.
33:27
I could not get enough of, and I
33:30
will tell you, Coleen Rooney, I mean, she,
33:33
that she had all of her ducks in
33:37
a row.
33:38
She was so smart.
33:39
She was so prepared for that trial.
33:42
And like, just absolutely, she stood on business,
33:46
stood on business.
33:48
My level of respect just went through the
33:53
roof.
33:54
Uh, it was, it was, it was like
33:55
the Pittsburgh Steelers and they run four straight
33:57
super bowls and they have that incredible defense
33:59
mean green.
34:00
She was like mean Joe green.
34:01
They came, they came at her and she
34:04
just, and she cooked.
34:05
And I love it because it's, it's all
34:07
the elements of like the title challenger.
34:10
You've won a few early bouts.
34:12
Now you're going to go for the big
34:13
one.
34:13
And she, and, and, and Coleen was like,
34:14
no, that's not how we're running out here.
34:17
Cause she grew up, she's going up with
34:19
Wayne Rooney.
34:20
Like the things that's been said to her
34:22
about her, the people who've tried to like
34:25
go at her family's money, go at her
34:27
man, all the rest of it.
34:29
Like the, the, the humiliation she's had to
34:31
endure.
34:31
She's like, this is light work.
34:34
This is like work.
34:35
Yeah.
34:35
If Rebekah Vardy could go back in time,
34:37
she should just be like, teach me.
34:40
What do I need to learn?
34:42
Teach me your ways.
34:44
You went to the sword master.
34:52
I saw that and I knew there was
34:54
only one way it was going to go.
34:55
And I'm not, I'm not a betting man.
34:57
I'm not a betting man.
34:58
But if I was all my chips on
35:00
Coleen, all the chips, all the chips, absolutely.
35:04
All day.
35:04
There's levels, there's levels to, there's levels to
35:06
this.
35:07
There are, there are always comes back to
35:09
ego.
35:09
We talked about ego before the start of
35:11
the show and it's a good way to
35:11
bring it full circle.
35:12
It's all about ego.
35:14
It is.
35:14
It is a, it is a constant, a
35:17
constant theme.
35:18
Um, and certainly one that just sort of
35:20
hangs over almost pretty much every single footballing
35:23
scandal we have, we have ever, ever seen
35:26
and more, more to come.
35:29
I am certain.
35:30
Of course there are, because people are always
35:32
going to want more Susannah.
35:33
I know Rebekah Vardy was with a guy.
35:37
She had her own career going well.
35:39
He'd won a Premier League title against all
35:41
odds, 5,000 to one.
35:42
And she still wanted more.
35:44
She still wanted more.
35:47
There is a lesson to be learned here.
35:51
Oh my gosh.
35:53
Uh, Musa, I had so much fun with
35:57
you as always, as always.
36:00
Thank you so very much for taking the
36:03
time, uh, to kind of get down and
36:05
dirty with me on some of these delicious
36:07
scandals that we've discussed.
36:10
Um, as always, such a big fan of
36:13
your work, everybody pod.
36:16
They're fantastic.
36:18
You and Ryan are, are truly tremendous.
36:20
Um, but yeah, appreciate, appreciate your Intel as
36:24
always.
36:24
Appreciate you always.
36:25
Thank you so much.
36:26
Great to chop it up.
36:28
That's going to do it for this week.
36:29
Thank you guys so much for listening.
36:32
Make sure to subscribe to First Touch Weekly,
36:34
wherever you get your podcasts.
36:36
And of course, tell your soccer loving friends.
36:39
We'll see you next time.