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The 90 Percent Fix Hiding in Your Laundry Room · How To Protect The Ocean

0:00
If I tell you
0:01
the term plastic pollution, what are you thinking?
0:03
Might be thinking plastic bags,
0:05
maybe plastic straws, or maybe that water bottle,
0:09
that single-use water bottle that that people take and on the road or when they take
0:13
at home or they need it if they live in an island community where they don't have,
0:17
you know, access to clean water,
0:19
which is understandable. But there's still plastic pollution and it still needs
0:22
to be addressed. But what if I talk to you about the fibers that come
0:27
off your clothes, the microfibers?
0:29
And how big of a problem these microfibers are in the ocean.
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Not only in the ocean, but in a lot of other things that happen within
0:37
our environment, whether it's agriculture,
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whether it's river systems, whether it's lakes,
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whether it's oceans, it's found pretty much everywhere.
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And it's because it's coming from our clothes in the new way we do clothes.
0:49
But there are ways that we can fix it and catch 90% of them before they
0:54
go out of our wash. We're gonna talk to Dr.
0:56
Anya.
0:58
Brandon, who is from the Ocean Conservancy here to talk about microfibers
1:01
and give us a whole bunch of information on it.
1:03
And the best thing is, is there's hope that we can actually stop it with just
1:08
one single item. We're gonna talk about that on today's episode of
1:12
the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
1:14
Your weekly update on ocean news or weekday,
1:18
I guess, ocean news and ocean science and ocean conservation,
1:22
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1:26
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for you this week or next week and the next coming weeks and just all the time.
1:47
It's gonna be amazing. I can't wait to bring it to you.
1:49
So let's talk about this interview because this is the the the interesting part.
1:54
Look, when we buy clothes, we don't really think about how
1:57
It affects the environment. We think about fashion.
2:00
There's a lot of things that, you know,
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you want to look good. You want to feel good.
2:03
And there's a lot of ways you can look at fashion.
2:04
There's a lot of ways you can look at clothes and how we go about clothes.
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For me personally, I buy clothes like usually every five years,
2:11
maybe six years, or if it gets ripped,
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or if it gets stains, which actually happens more than ever.
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But I try and decrease the amount of clothes I buy just so that I don't have
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to worry about, you know, over polluting or just,
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you know, just buying clothes for the sake of buying clothes.
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There's one thing about buying clothes because it looks nice.
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There's nothing buying clothes because you need it and then you don't really need
2:28
it for another five years. Now,
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I know some time some of you out there who want to be a little
2:33
bit more fashionable and want to have more clothes.
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I get it. There's no judgment here.
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This is just my personal stance.
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I have I live with three young ~ three young ladies,
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including my wife, and they buy it,
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they have a lot of clothes. And it's and it is what it is,
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and and they thrift a lot and they do a lot of things to reduce their their impact
2:52
on the ocean. But you know, th some of the things that we don't talk about
2:55
are microfiber.
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And just like no matter what clothing you buy,
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whether you think you're buying,
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you know, something that's really good for the environment or organic cotton
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and things like that, microfibers still come off the shirts and they come
3:05
off every washing cycle. And it comes off in the wash and it gets into
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the environment. It goes through like your wastewater treatment plant.
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And then sometimes it gets through there or it gets caught in these like this gucky
3:17
stuff that sometimes gets used for fertilizer and stuff,
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and then it gets on agricultural land.
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There's all these different things that can happen.
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and and it gets confusing and it gets,
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you know, you wonder what are the best things that you can do to help,
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you know, reduce your impact from buying all these clothes ~ and and
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you and washing them, right? Obviously,
3:33
you're gonna wash your clothes.
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So Dr. Anya Brandon from the Ocean Conservancy is here to tell
3:39
us all about microfibers, the impacts,
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how it gets into the environment,
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and how to prevent it from getting into the environment,
3:45
which could which could reduce up to 90% of the microfibers that get up.
3:49
into the environment and cause micropollution or microplastic pollution.
3:53
because microfibers are a type of plastic pollution.
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So we are going to be talking to to Anya.
3:59
She ~ was fabulous. I can't wait to have her back on.
4:01
But here is the interview with Dr.
4:04
Anya Brandon from the Ocean Conservancy talking about microfibers,
4:07
the effects and how to prevent them from getting into the environment.
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So hopefully we can all prevent them as well.
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Enjoy the interview and I'll talk to you after.
4:14
Hey Anya, welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
4:17
Are you ready to talk about plastic pollution?
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I sure am. Thanks for having me.
4:22
You bet this is exciting. Although I don't like we kind of assessed this before
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between both of us, we don't like plastic pollution,
4:29
but like talking about plastic pollution because it's a pretty big issue around
4:33
the world that I don't feel gets enough attention.
4:36
But I also think that the attention it does get sometimes it gets kind
4:41
of ~ manipulated into certain things,
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i.e. plastic straws and and and so forth,
4:46
and really not knowing the bigger problem of of plastic pollution.
4:50
We're gonna get down to some.
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like microscopic like fibers and and talking about a lot of things that
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we just don't know about plastic pollution ~ or we don't spend a lot
4:59
of time on that. So I'm looking forward to to talking about it.
5:02
~ and and especially with you,
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Anya, who's an expert in this.
5:05
And we're gonna have a a good time being able to talk about that.
5:07
But before we do, ~ Anya, why don't you just let the audience know who
5:10
you are and what you do.
5:12
Great. Well, my name is Dr. Anya Brandon,
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and I am the Director of Plastics Policy at Ocean Conservancy.
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So I lead a team of folks, and our whole job
5:24
is to try to prevent plastic from becoming pollution in our ocean
5:29
in the first place. So we work at the state level,
5:31
the federal level, the international level,
5:34
working on different policies to try to tackle plastic pollution at its source.
5:40
Love it. Okay, that's awesome.
5:41
Now, now you have a like you mentioned,
5:43
you're you're you're a doctor,
5:44
you have a PhD in environmental engineering from Stanford,
5:47
Mm-hmm.
5:47
no less. Like that's fairly a fairly good university,
5:51
Yeah.
5:51
a fairly well-known university.
5:53
~ and your your research really focused on breaking down plastics.
5:57
What pulled you from the lab bench,
6:00
so to speak, to policy work?
6:03
Yeah, great question. ~ I actually got my start originally at an aquarium.
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~ so I was a I
6:09
~ cool.
6:10
was a volunteer at an aquarium where I first learned about plastic
6:13
and plastic pollution and was like,
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I I couldn't tell you what it was,
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but like that is it for me. That is the the problem for my brain.
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~ and you're right, I took that all the way through to a PhD where
6:24
I studied plastic degrading bacteria to try to solve this this huge global crisis.
6:30
Mm.
6:30
~
6:31
and it was
6:32
Awesome and the science is so interesting and super cool.
6:35
And I pretty quickly realized as I was like coming towards an end that it
6:40
was a drop and a drop and a drop in the ocean in terms of what we need
6:46
to tackle this issue. ~ and so I started thinking through like how
6:50
do you create real change? Like,
6:52
how do you tackle a problem this big and this important?
6:56
~ and I stumbled on policy. ~ and
6:59
Interesting.
6:59
it's you know.
7:01
How we can do really big hard things together.
7:03
Yeah.
7:04
I I really think that I've got a couple of questions on that.
7:07
first of all, ~ bacteria, you know,
7:10
eating plastic, I guess is what we call it.
7:13
~ we keep seeing it and I keep getting friends of mine who send
7:16
me videos being like, hey, is this gonna solve our problem?
7:19
Like, is this where are we at?
7:21
I know it maybe have been a while since you've you've looked into it,
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but where are we at with this type of either bacteria or some kind
7:28
of biological agent to break down.
7:31
plastic. Are we far from doing it at scale or are these just more like
7:35
are these just more micro scale type things?
7:38
Yeah, that's a great question.
7:40
~ we are a little ways away from having it be like a meaningful part
7:45
of the solution for sure.
7:46
Right.
7:46
I mean, the research I finished my PhD or I started my PhD almost like
7:51
10 years ago now. So folks have been doing this research for a while
7:52
Yeah. Right.
7:54
and like it's still ramping up.
7:57
So we're getting closer and
7:58
Yeah.
7:59
~ you know, we're kind of also learning about some of the drawbacks
8:04
of this approach at the same time.
8:05
Like it's never going to be able to
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tackle all of the plastic already out in the environment.
8:11
~
8:11
Right. Right.
8:12
but
8:12
as a an alternative to, you know,
8:15
recycling or
8:16
Mm-hmm.
8:17
a complementary system to recycling,
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maybe as something you can kind of help treat water or wastewater
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or other things that have
8:24
Mm.
8:25
microplastics or plastic contaminants.
8:28
I think we could get there, but
8:30
Yeah.
8:31
I'm certainly not holding my breath for the next couple
8:33
Right.
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of years.
8:34
I feel like way in the future we're all gonna have like a little machine
8:39
we can put in our homes or apartments to break all that down and it'll just turn
8:43
into something that we can use.
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And and you know what I mean? That's for some reason that's where
8:47
my thought went with it eventually.
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I know we're way
8:49
Yeah.
8:50
far away from that, but ~ that would be kind of cool.
8:53
I think that's what I think
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Yeah.
8:54
people think though. I think a lot of people are thinking that like maybe
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we can have this, you know, tomorrow or the next day,
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you know.
9:00
Yeah, I think a lot of times like one thing that's challenging about those
9:04
conversations is it's like, my gosh,
9:06
this technology is going to come and save us all.
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And and I too thought that. that is why I did that research.
9:08
Mm-hmm. Yes.
9:11
Yeah.
9:13
~
9:14
and then you step back and you're like,
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wait, there's like other technology options or other things that can save us.
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Like, what if instead of using all this single-use plastic,
9:22
we switch to reusables and you're just like,
9:24
Right.
9:24
right, we don't need all that plastic in the first place and it's
9:27
Right.
9:28
It's one of those things where it's like,
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Are we creating a technology for a problem that we don't need to solve?
9:35
You know? It's like you create these little like
9:36
Yeah.
9:36
catch twenty two systems.
9:39
For sure. And I think there are like there's,
9:40
you know, the ocean cleanup project.
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There's other projects out there that kind of sell that,
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hey, we can clean up the ocean pretty quickly when that's not really what
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we need to do. It's almost like we need to stop it at its source in a way,
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with and I think that's where the you probably got led to policy.
9:56
But I I that's my other question I have from your first answer was it it
10:00
it takes a lot. I I I talked to a lot of people who are under ~ finished,
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just finished their undergrads.
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undergraduate ~ degrees and and graduate degrees and and they they don't know where
10:12
to go with their with their career because obviously it's
10:14
you know ocean conservation marine biology ocean engineering environmental
10:19
engineering they're huge huge subject matters and that you can go in
10:22
a lot of different fields and so I guess like you know through your
10:26
PhD you're probably you're you're it's an exercise of thinking as well
10:29
as doing and so you're probably thinking a lot of of this big picture stuff
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but you know as a
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know there's still lot going on in a PhD.
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It's a it's a basically a full-time job plus more.
10:40
~ in in
10:40
Mm-hmm.
10:41
doing that. What like what was the mechanism that you could like give
10:46
~ advice for current graduate students who are going through the same thing that
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led you to this like sort of like a bigger picture of like I want
10:56
Yeah.
10:56
to help more. How can I help more?
10:58
Like what led you down that path of thinking,
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policy is a good because when I'd
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introduce policy to a lot of people,
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they're like, I don't I don't really know what that is or what does that mean,
11:07
you know?
11:08
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, those are some of my favorite conversations to have with folks
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is like how do you kind of broaden
11:14
Yeah.
11:14
that
11:14
horizon of like what you can do with the concept of science and like
11:18
a science degree. you know, I think my number one piece of advice
11:23
for folks in undergrad or or grad school that are kind of going through this
11:27
is to use the time to take a couple extra classes that might seem outside your
11:33
wheelhouse. ~
11:34
Mm-hmm.
11:35
science communication is
11:37
Always going to pay dividends,
11:39
being able to talk and communicate about your science and make it relevant
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to other folks. I think I was introduced in those styles of classes
11:47
to the other audiences for science and like how interesting those different
11:51
audiences are in science and what
11:55
Mm-hmm.
11:55
you can do when you better translate your science for them.
11:59
~ And then I took, you know, a couple other classes.
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I took a class on like the theory of change and how we have.
12:06
Tackled whole hard problems. I took a class on public policy.
12:09
I took a class on a couple other things just to kind of,
12:12
you know, pique my interest in different places.
12:15
~ and then ultimately, you know,
12:17
I decided to do this fellowship because it's it's a one year,
12:20
it's almost like a mini postdoc ~ following a PhD.
12:23
Cause I was like, hey, if I hate it,
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it's only a year. ~ and I got lucky,
12:28
I loved it and kind of stuck with it.
12:29
Yeah.
12:30
~
12:31
but for folks who are interested in,
12:32
you know, like
12:33
How do you get your hands dirty,
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get more applied to the type of work you're doing?
12:37
I think it's a really great option.
12:39
Yeah, no, a hundred percent. I I I I agree.
12:41
And ~ from that, you know, going to the speaking of of policy,
12:45
~ you've got a you had a really interesting fellowship ~ at Senator
12:49
Mm.
12:50
Merkley's office. Can you talk a little bit about that?
12:52
What was the fellowship and ~ you know what like how how did that science actually
12:57
help you with policy, like having that science background
12:59
and engineering background?
13:01
Yeah, it was an awesome fellowship program.
13:03
I was the AGU AAAS Congressional Science Fellow,
13:07
which is part of this larger
13:07
Sounds fancy.
13:10
cohort of science fellows. There's like a bunch of different types
13:13
of these folks that go to the Hill.
13:15
And the whole goal of the program is to get scientists into policy,
13:21
at least for a little bit. So some folks
13:23
Yeah.
13:23
do it as like a sabbatical, some folks do it straight out of grad school,
13:27
some folks do it after working for a while.
13:30
~ and the goal is to that you not the goal,
13:33
you essentially become a staffer for a year in
13:35
Right.
13:36
a senator's office, a representative's office,
13:38
kind of you name it. there's also folks who do it in the federal government,
13:43
at a at an agency, ~ and you are quite literally bringing the science
13:48
to bear to help these ~ you know,
13:51
political offices make legislative
13:53
Mm-hmm.
13:54
decisions.
13:55
But you're also learning about the policymaking problem.
13:57
Like we're you're in the sausage making ~ as it's
13:59
Yes.
14:00
happening. And so you get to really learn like how these two worlds interact
14:06
and how to make them interact better,
14:08
ideally.
14:09
Right.
14:09
And that's kind
14:09
of like the theory there is like if you bring more scientists to the table,
14:13
they will understand it more, can tell their fellow scientists how to engage more.
14:17
~ and also you just get better outcomes because you have folks
14:21
who know about climate change.
14:23
Working on the policies to tackle climate change,
14:25
Yes.
14:26
for example.
14:27
That's a big difference, especially these days.
14:29
It seems like sometimes what's proposed in the legislation in any country,
14:34
sometimes you wonder like, where are these people getting their information from?
14:37
Right?
14:38
Yeah, and and I'm not naive, you know,
14:40
science is only part of the equation when these decisions are being made.
14:43
Of course. Yeah.
14:45
~
14:46
but given that you should have some really smart scientists there
14:51
to advocate for that part. ~ otherwise,
14:51
Yeah. A hundred percent.
14:54
you know, that part becomes even a f a smaller fraction of
14:57
Yep. yeah.
14:57
the decision making process. so
15:00
it's, you know, incredibly valuable to have folks who kind of know the background,
15:05
know the science,
15:05
Yeah.
15:06
can help.
15:07
you know, push things in the right direction.
15:10
And what would from that fellowship,
15:12
obviously I'm sure you learned a ton.
15:13
What would
15:14
Mm-hmm.
15:15
be like the biggest thing that you that you got out of that?
15:18
Coming out of that, you're like,
15:19
~ this is always gonna stick with me.
15:22
gosh, what a great question. ~
15:24
you know, I think I learned that you know,
15:29
science is part of the equation.
15:31
So that's important. ~
15:32
Yep. Yep.
15:34
and that folks are really trying their best and that they might not know what they
15:39
don't know. ~ and
15:40
Right.
15:40
I think for scientists that's really important because we publish papers or
15:46
~ go to conferences and we we put our work out there and assume.
15:52
It is going to have the impact we want it to.
15:55
~ but we need to go the extra mile to make sure that's the case.
16:00
We need to put it into bullet points or a one-pager
16:02
Mm-hmm.
16:03
or a blog or a press release or something that is more ~ digestible
16:09
by other folks,
16:09
Yeah.
16:10
especially in the policy world,
16:12
~ if we want to have that impact,
16:14
because they don't know that there's some new paper out in nature,
16:18
like they don't have a nature subscription.
16:21
Right. Right.
16:21
That's not their field. Like how would they
16:23
know about that? so really kind of going that extra mile to make sure that
16:29
~ you can't get left behind or your science doesn't get left behind.
16:34
It's part of the equation.
16:35
Yeah, and I I I agree. As a communications person,
16:38
I also work as an ocean communications manager.
16:40
And I feel as though we we have to do that in any kind like whoever your target
16:46
audience is, whether that's, you know,
16:48
politicians or regulators and policymakers,
16:50
but also general public, you know,
16:53
depending on ages, depending on demographics and stuff,
16:56
you have to speak the language that they speak.
16:58
You have to put it in terms that they can understand.
17:00
And and we can definitely do that.
17:02
You know, I think it just a little more training s for some of us to get.
17:05
Like it took me a while to get rid of the acronyms into the science speak.
17:09
I'm like, What do you mean you don't want to know about ANOVAs or a KITAS?
17:11
Like, what do you mean you don't know?
17:13
Like
17:13
my gosh.
17:15
Okay. You know, they do a good job with scientists training us not
17:18
Yeah. Right.
17:19
to use acronyms and yeah, it takes
17:20
little practice. No one does this for public policy folks.
17:24
My first day
17:24
That's crazy, right?
17:26
on the hill, I just had a running Excel sheet of all the acronyms I heard
17:31
to like go Google afterwards because
17:33
Ha ha ha.
17:34
no one tells you that there's a million and two acronyms and tells them
17:36
~ I could imagine. Yeah.
17:38
not to use them. So we could I think
17:40
It's almost like a s
17:42
it's almost like a science in itself in terms of coming up with those acronyms
17:46
to make them memorable, right?
17:48
Yeah,
17:48
I de I think of part of my job as like almost a translator of translating science
17:52
Yes.
17:53
into policy, but also policy back into how it can help the science and
17:57
Yes.
17:58
speaking both languages is very tricky.
18:01
Absolutely. Now after your fellowship,
18:04
was that a a year fellowship or was that a year fellowship?
18:08
~ did you go to the Ocean Conservancy right after that?
18:12
Yep. I I ~ yeah, just after a little bit over a year went
18:16
and joined Ocean Conservancy to basically help us build out this plastics policy
18:21
program.
18:22
And so what attracted so obviously you've done the policy.
18:25
What
18:25
Mm-hmm.
18:26
attracted you to work at Ocean Conservancy with this type
18:31
of ~ like with this type of program?
18:35
Yeah, that's a great question.
18:36
one, I'm an ocean nerd and wanted to go back and and work specifically on the ocean,
18:43
so that was an easy fit. but I was really attracted to the mission
18:48
~ and how we carry out that mission.
18:51
you know, we are committed to a healthy ocean and a thriving planet forever
18:57
and for everyone. ~
18:58
Mm-hmm.
18:59
and just that sales pitch was really compelling to me.
19:03
and how we carry out that work by uniting ~ people,
19:08
policy, and science to kind of achieve
19:12
Mm-hmm.
19:13
those outcomes. So it's kind of pulled all the pieces together that most motivated
19:18
me. ~ yeah, and it's it's been a great fit.
19:22
I feel like I have my dream job.
19:22
I can imagine. Yeah, absolutely.
19:25
Well, and w and you know, it talks about plastics and and you're looking
19:28
at plastics policy. And I kind of mentioned this before,
19:30
but I think when when I say plastic pollution to people or ocean plastic
19:34
Mm-hmm.
19:35
pollution, I th I feel like there's specific items that pop up in their head based
19:39
on just I guess the w the way media has trained us to think about plastics,
19:45
you know, single use plastic bags.
19:47
single use plastic cups like coffee cups and and containers like that that
19:51
are everyday use. But then we get the plastic straws that,
19:55
you know, ~ we'll talk about earlier this week on the podcast to introduce this kind
19:59
of thing. ~ but I feel like, you know,
20:02
that's like and and plastic ball water bottles as well,
20:05
right? The single use water bottles.
20:07
~ I think that's what people think about a a lot of the time.
20:11
and then when I when we introduce other types of materials,
20:16
I'm like, is that
20:16
plastic. Like I'm talking microfibers that we get from washing machines.
20:21
And and you know,
20:22
Mm-hmm.
20:23
how does that fit in the picture and and why do these microfibers matter?
20:29
Yeah, such a great question. and you're right.
20:32
It is so easy to think about the really visible plastics that we see on the beach.
20:37
~ your water bottles, your food wrappers,
20:40
~ you know, all all those single use plastics,
20:44
which are also
20:44
Yeah.
20:45
a huge part of the problem and and a big part of my
20:46
Right, of course.
20:47
job. and we forget that there are so many other uses
20:53
and applications for plastic. I mean.
20:55
I'm I'm quite literally surrounded by plastics at the moment,
20:58
as I'm sure you are as well. ~ and one of them is our clothes.
21:02
Like we are making
21:03
Yeah.
21:03
more clothes than ever before,
21:05
and we are making more clothes out of plastics than ever before.
21:09
So nearly 70% of syn textiles ~
21:13
Yeah.
21:13
broadly are made out of synthetics.
21:15
So nylon and rayon and polyester,
21:21
like these are all other names for plastics.
21:24
Mm-hmm.
21:24
~
21:25
and so that is a very big part of the equation as well.
21:28
Sorry, my cat has decided to come join the podcast.
21:31
Cats are always welcome. We are a pet friendly podcast,
21:31
~ She gets a little
21:35
so no problem. ~
21:37
fobo.
21:38
yeah, well, I don't blame her.
21:39
She's beautiful. Like she's got I
21:40
Yeah.
21:41
saw her come off the couch and she's like,
21:42
I want my close-up, and she got her close-up.
21:45
~ now like so this is interesting because I don't think people I don't think
21:50
we realize even every time I hear the stats,
21:52
like you don't realize how how many of these fibers get get put out.
21:58
Like so
22:00
you know, looking at the numbers from studies of microfibers released
22:04
in a single load of laundry can you know range from you know a few hundred thousand,
22:10
which by the way, that's a ton,
22:12
right? Like not a ton in
22:12
Mm.
22:13
terms of weight, but that's a lot,
22:15
up to 18 million. Like that's insane.
22:19
And it depends on the fabric, depends on the machine type.
22:22
So, like, why is that range so much,
22:24
like so wide? And what does it depend on?
22:28
Yeah. ~ so let's start, and maybe I I we can go back and maybe
22:32
I should have answered this before,
22:33
but what are these microplastic fibers?
22:34
No worries. Yes, please, yeah.
22:36
They
22:37
are shedding from all of our clothes that we just said are are made out of plastics.
22:41
~ and so they shed when we make them,
22:44
wear them, wash them, like you name it.
22:47
this kind of happens with all of our plastics,
22:50
like as they
22:50
Mm-hmm.
22:50
get older or degraded or UV or you know,
22:54
physical rubbing. ~
22:57
they will release little bits of plastics.
23:00
And so that's the same with our clothes.
23:01
We know that washing machines where there's hot water and a lot
23:06
of agitation and soap does this a lot.
23:09
Yeah.
23:10
And so you're right, like even that the low at range estimates of like
23:14
a few hundred thousand ~
23:15
Mm-hmm.
23:16
is still a ton of microplastics to be shedding for a single load of laundry.
23:21
~ One of the reasons that
23:24
that range is so large in these different studies is that we are still working
23:28
on ~ standardized test methods to like compare apples to apples here.
23:33
~ And so it you know comes down to ~ when people are doing these tests,
23:39
are they measuring the same size of particles?
23:43
Like we are talking micro, micro scale.
23:46
So a micro plastic fiber can be up to a hundred times thinner than the width
23:52
of a human hair.
23:53
Wow.
23:54
so
23:54
are you capturing all the way down to those like fine,
23:57
Right.
23:57
fine scale microplastics? ~ and then you know,
24:01
it's even silly things like how much clothes are you washing at once,
24:05
Mm-hmm.
24:05
how hot
24:05
are you washing them, things like that.
24:07
So kind of that's all the factors that can lead into the range.
24:11
~ but I think the the top line number here is that
24:17
our washing machines are shedding a ton of microplastics.
24:21
without any of us maybe thinking about it or realizing it.
24:24
We don't see it. So we don't really,
24:26
really get it, right? In terms of like what happens to them.
24:30
Where do they go? So where do they go?
24:31
Like are they I know some washing machines will have like a like they'll catch some,
24:37
like they have like a filter for it,
24:38
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Correct.
24:39
but not a lot. and I don't know
24:41
if that's I know with some brands they make it part of it.
24:44
and others it's not really involved.
24:46
So if say there's no filter, where
24:49
Mm.
24:50
do all these microfibers like is it
24:52
Does it end up in your like in a dryer like a lint kind of thing?
24:55
Or is it does it go right out into your like I guess sewage or
24:59
or wherever that goes? Wastewater.
25:01
Yeah, great question. And so the the washing machines that do have these filters,
25:06
which you are right, far too few,
25:08
especially here in the
25:08
Yeah.
25:09
United States, those filters act just like a lint trap in your dryer to catch
25:14
a lot of those little fibers. All of that lint is also microplastic fibers.
25:19
~
25:19
Mm.
25:19
so just keep that one in mind too.
25:22
~ but if you
25:22
Mm-hmm.
25:23
don't have a filter, yeah, it flows right out with the rest of our wastewater into
25:29
a wastewater treatment plant.
25:31
You know, depending
25:31
Yeah.
25:31
on where you live. ~ depending again on where you live and what kind
25:35
of wastewater treatment plant you have,
25:37
~ they can be pretty effective at capturing them.
25:41
~ so depends on on where you are,
25:44
but you know, some
25:45
Yeah.
25:45
of the the microplastic fibers will flow out into whatever water body that receives
25:52
that water. ~
25:52
Yeah.
25:53
but the majority of them end up trapped or caught in something called the biosolids.
25:59
Which is just the solid residue from
26:00
~ yeah.
26:01
wastewater treatment. ~ the challenge here is those biosolids are chock full
26:07
of really valuable nutrients. so we often use them as a fertilizer replacement.
26:13
Great for the climate, making fertilizers really,
26:17
really climate intensive, and you have all these nutrients already.
26:20
~ but that means when you're applying them to lands as a fertilizer replacement,
26:25
we are essentially
26:27
moving microplastics from one place to another rather than like actually capturing
26:32
them. ~ and so that's why we have been thinking more and more about what
26:37
we can do upstream. So at the point source of that washing
26:40
Mm-hmm.
26:41
machine.
26:42
Wow. That's really yeah, that's I feel like I'm starting to see like where
26:46
you can catch these things as you as you go along.
26:49
And and I've I've been part of studies locally.
26:51
I live in in Ontario, Canada, and ~ where we looked at,
26:55
you know, upgrades to specific wastewater treatment plants in areas that were
26:58
Mm.
26:59
getting larger and larger in population and stuff.
27:01
And then you start to see these secondary and tertiary ~ types of filtration.
27:07
But then even then, like I've seen like
27:09
I know we're not even talking about pharmaceuticals,
27:10
but I've seen how pharmaceuticals get into the water wastewater and all that kind
27:14
of stuff. And
27:14
Yeah.
27:15
but to think the amount that gets through in that range,
27:18
even even hundreds of thousands of microfibers getting out,
27:22
and say they get it past that wastewater treatment plant into the rivers
27:26
or streams or whatever, they get put out lakes getting out into the ocean.
27:29
And that's just per load of laundry,
27:32
you know. So anywhere where they're doing laundry,
27:34
~ and and if you think about it from a
27:37
Even just a North American perspective,
27:39
where I would imagine many people have laundry machines and or have access
27:42
to laundry machines. Not like I don't know what the percentage
27:46
of laundry machines that do or do not.
27:47
I'm sure it ranges in every different region,
27:49
every different country, but that's a lot of material getting into
27:54
the oceans or even to like biocells that get onto fertilizers and
27:57
and stuff like that. What damage do microfibers do once they
28:02
get into the environment? So say they get into river stream,
28:05
lake, ocean, whatever.
28:07
that might be what like I we know so with some of the micro plastics say not fibers.
28:12
I don't know if it's same. ~ but you know,
28:14
there's chemicals that come off of these these
28:16
Mm-hmm.
28:17
chem these like the surface area is small because they're micro and then they
28:20
get ingested by animals and they get that.
28:22
Is that the same sort of process for microfibers or is it a little bit different?
28:27
Yeah, yeah, spot on. You don't even need me here.
28:29
you've got
28:29
Ha ha ha.
28:31
it. ~ that is absolutely one of the problems.
28:34
you know, we know these microplastics,
28:38
~ yeah, microplastic fibers are are just another type of microf plastic.
28:43
So a lot
28:43
Right.
28:44
of those same issues apply.
28:45
yeah, you're spot on. They are made with and ~ contain a lot
28:50
of different synthetic chemicals.
28:52
those chemicals are not bound,
28:55
they're they're not chemically attached to the plastic.
28:57
Mm-hmm.
28:59
If we want to get really fancy,
29:00
there's no like carbon hydrogen bonds,
29:02
like there's no bonds between these chemicals and the plastic,
29:05
which means if they enter a different environment,
29:08
have UV exposure, get ingested into like an acidic.
29:14
stomach type condition,
29:14
Yeah. Right.
29:16
they can kind of be released out,
29:19
~ which you know makes them a bioavailable or available for
29:24
Yeah.
29:24
consumption by all of these different ~ organisms out in the wildlife or
29:30
out in the ocean or other places.
29:32
We also know ~ that in ingesting microplastics generally
29:38
is associated with reduced food consumption.
29:42
~ reduced energy for growth and altered gene expressions,
29:46
depending on you know the wildlife we're talking about out in the ocean.
29:50
~ and then of course, when it comes to human health,
29:53
like we are still learning lots about the potential impacts on on our health.
29:59
but we have already seen ~ enough to be a little bit concerned.
30:05
we know that the microplastics and the chemicals they carry with them
30:10
can cause cell death and kind of.
30:12
toxic effects. ~ They also can carry bacteria and pathogens and kind
30:18
of other that basically act as vectors for these other contaminants of concern.
30:23
And microplastic fibers in particular,
30:27
because of their, you know, weird shape and size,
30:30
through these tiny like needle-like
30:31
Yeah.
30:32
plastics, ~ are uniquely good at getting
30:37
~ past getting once ingested,
30:41
kind of
30:41
Weaseling their way into actual cells and staying there.
30:45
So when we look for microplastics in the tissues of seafood or,
30:52
you know, razorback clams, as is the the case with one of my colleagues here
30:56
at Ocean Conservancy, which did her PhD on,
30:59
or even in the human body, we
31:01
Mm-hmm.
31:02
disproportionately find these microplastic fibers because
31:06
Interesting.
31:07
that actual shape makes them a little bit better at,
31:09
you know, getting stuck places.
31:12
Yeah, one another stat that kind of got me was from IUCN.
31:16
It estimates textile, so microfibers make up about thirty-five percent
31:21
of the primary microplastics that enter the ocean.
31:25
Mm-hmm.
31:26
That's a huge number. And I I know when I start
31:28
Mm.
31:29
to sell this to people, they're like,
31:30
well, where's that number come from?
31:32
And and it is it actually like that number?
31:34
And and like how do we how do we mentally deal with that?
31:38
That's 35%. That's a that's a big chunk.
31:41
Yeah. ~ and that's just within the microplastics category.
31:45
So we think overall
31:46
Right.
31:47
microplastics ~ entering the ocean are about 10% of all plastic pollution entering
31:54
the ocean. ~ that's also tricky because plastic
31:56
Okay. Yeah.
31:58
pollution and like all those single use plastics we talked about
32:01
are basically future microplastics once they are out in the ocean.
32:02
Yes. Because they break down. Yeah.
32:04
Yeah.
32:04
~
32:06
maybe a a a dark way of looking at them,
32:08
but
32:09
Yeah.
32:09
Makes it important to prevent them at the source,
32:11
of course. ~
32:12
Absolutely.
32:13
so this particular number, ~ like a lot of the numbers that are looking at,
32:18
you know, how much are entering the ocean,
32:20
how much are out in the ocean to begin with,
32:22
come from different modeled estimates.
32:25
So IUCN took kind of two different modeling approaches and compared them
32:30
and we're like, ~ they're pretty similar.
32:32
So that's like pretty good. ~ one of the estimates or one of
32:36
the modeled approaches was basically looking at
32:39
~ estimates of washing, like number of laundry cycles per capita
32:45
and standard wash amounts and regional differences for how many synthetics
32:49
are in the wash, things like that,
32:51
versus the other ~ model was based more on just production
32:56
and purchasing of textiles regionally.
32:59
And they kind of average those two approaches then.
33:02
And they they found that they weren't that different in scale.
33:07
Rather,
33:07
Mm-hmm.
33:07
the bigger differences was in distribution of them,
33:11
Okay.
33:12
which once they're out in the ocean,
33:14
we know kind of can move around.
33:16
~
33:16
Yeah, for sure.
33:17
and I'll say we continue to learn so much ~ about primary microplastics,
33:23
where they're coming from, different types of microplastics generally.
33:28
~ you know, we are constantly,
33:30
as our microplastics tools and research get better.
33:35
We are finding more sources that we didn't see before,
33:38
higher concentrations, higher volumes.
33:41
~
33:41
Yeah.
33:42
so you know, this number is absolutely real and defensible and
33:48
Yeah.
33:49
is part of like a growing body of research that's still kind of trying
33:52
to slowly make progress towards,
33:54
you know, what is the scale and scope of this massive problem.
33:59
Yeah, for sure. Let's dive in a little bit more to the problem and then we'll kind
34:04
of get into some of the solutions.
34:06
~ it it's it's a it's you know,
34:10
I always I equate this very similar to ~ to like seafood
34:15
and buying sustainable seafood,
34:17
right? You go up to a counter,
34:19
you maybe ask the person behind the counter some questions,
34:21
and depending on their knowledge,
34:23
depending on where they're coming from,
34:24
like if you're at a supermarket,
34:25
sometimes it's a 16-year-old kid who's doesn't know anything and
34:29
He's just trying to make he or she or they are just trying to make their
34:32
way through high school and stuff like that.
34:34
And they may not know a lot of the stuff.
34:36
And so it's difficult to understand what's sustainable,
34:39
what's not sustainable. And that was that's my point.
34:41
With if I'm buying a shirt,
34:44
you know, there's there's I mean,
34:46
you've seen it. There's ads for everything.
34:48
Everybody wants to go, every celebrity is into fashion.
34:50
They have their own lines and you know,
34:53
every podcast has their own merchandise,
34:55
and you know, and it's
34:55
Mm-hmm.
34:56
Part of the branding is part of the marketing.
34:58
~ it's something that I've struggled with as my own podcast to be like,
35:02
hey, do you guys have merch? I don't because I worry that I'm just perpetuating
35:06
the microfibers. Cause then it's like you have to get the specific kind,
35:10
and we don't know if that's great and and stuff like that.
35:12
Yeah.
35:13
So it ~ like when what what is your suggestion?
35:17
Cause I know there's a policy campaign that you guys have,
35:20
~ or the campaign,
35:21
Mm.
35:21
I guess, like not safe for wash campaign.
35:24
Can you tell us about this campaign and how it helps people ~ like like myself
35:28
to like walk up and be like, should I be buying this as
35:31
an environmentally cautious person?
35:33
Yeah, ~ well thanks. Thanks for the question and bringing up this campaign.
35:37
We've had a lot of fun with it.
35:38
so yes, the campaign is NSFW, not safe for wash.
35:42
So a little play on words there.
35:44
~ all props to our comms team who came up with that one.
35:49
even us science communicators are not not quite at their level yet,
35:54
but one day. Yeah.
35:55
You're getting there. Yeah, yeah.
35:57
~ the the real goal of our campaign is
36:02
To just start building a little bit of that understanding
36:05
and awareness for everybody that this is happening,
36:09
this is out there, and that there are solutions.
36:12
And we can get more into that.
36:14
You know, we don't want to add to this overwhelming sense of crisis that,
36:19
you know, my gosh, there's
36:19
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
36:21
microplastics, there's plastic pollution.
36:23
Like, what are we doing? ~ we have answers,
36:25
especially for this particular problem.
36:27
Right.
36:28
Like there
36:28
is technology out there available today.
36:31
Mm-hmm.
36:32
that can help tackle up to 90% of microplastic fibers coming from our wash.
36:37
~
36:38
Yeah.
36:38
And having folks kind of step back and think a little bit more about
36:44
~ where they're getting clothes from,
36:46
how many clothes they're purchasing,
36:48
all of that is just like an extra side benefit,
36:51
right? I mean, it's kind of like thinking about,
36:53
~ right, I could go buy a water bottle or I could bring the water bottle from home.
36:58
It's trying to build in those reflexes.
37:00
Mm-hmm.
37:01
~ that can slowly add up to really large scale change
37:06
~ while acknowledging this is not just on all of us.
37:09
Like this is individual actions help move the needle.
37:13
~ but ultimately we need kind of these systemic changes that comes from policy
37:20
forcing corporations and you know,
37:22
the manufacturers to kind of help us make better choices ultimately.
37:27
Yeah, and so like so this this California act that passed,
37:31
~ I guess S B fifty four, it's
37:31
Mm-hmm. Yes.
37:34
deemed like the strongest plastics legislation in the country.
37:38
So obviously a big this is what you're talking about in terms
37:40
of systemic solutions where you get policy in place to actually do this.
37:44
What does that what does the bill actually do?
37:47
Yeah. ~ so SB fifty-four is one of ~ seven state bills
37:53
now ~ that are something called extended producer responsibility
37:57
or EPR Jargon City. ~ basically that
38:01
Ha ha ha.
38:02
means that it is holding the people who are making all of our plastics financially
38:08
Mm-hmm.
38:09
responsible for helping manage all of those plastics they're creating.
38:13
~ so the idea is that if I am selling
38:17
Anya's trinkets, ~ I I package it up,
38:20
I decide to use extra plastic film and I triple wrap it and whatever.
38:26
That's gonna be really expensive for me because I have
38:29
Mm-hmm.
38:29
to then manage all of that extra packaging at the end of life.
38:34
So all the recycling
38:34
Mm-hmm.
38:35
costs for that packaging, the collection,
38:37
the transportation. Whereas if Anya's trinket steps back and says,
38:42
actually, this can go into a reusable packaging.
38:46
Mm.
38:47
Then I don't
38:47
have to pay any fees or I pay much lower fees.
38:51
~ it kind of forces producers to think through those kind
38:56
of other costs that right now we all pay for,
38:58
Right. Yeah.
39:00
whether it's through
39:01
our local taxes or just through our trash bills.
39:05
Yeah.
39:05
~ and it's not really on us whether or not.
39:10
All of the plastics on the shelves have gotten way more complicated and way harder
39:14
my gosh.
39:15
to recycle over the last several years.
39:17
We're
39:17
Yeah.
39:18
just the ones paying for it. And so it's kind of this mechanism
39:21
to make everybody pay their fair share ~
39:24
Mm-hmm.
39:25
and talk to producers and, you know,
39:27
those companies in a language that they understand,
39:30
which is dollars and cents, right?
39:32
They're not gonna do things out of the kindness of their own heart.
39:32
Yeah. Nope. Yeah.
39:34
They have shareholders, they have fiscal responsibilities.
39:38
But if you make it a financial obligation,
39:41
then they'll start to really move the needle
39:44
Right.
39:45
and start investing in what we all want,
39:48
which is less single-use plastics,
39:48
Yeah. Yeah.
39:50
more
39:51
reuse, more sustainable options,
39:53
all of those great outcomes.
39:55
So the incentive for these producers is to and and and people selling this
40:00
the material, whatever they're s whatever product they're selling is so they don't
40:03
Mm.
40:03
have pay a fee at the end because of the the end of product or end of life
40:08
of the of the product of the material that you're packaging it all in.
40:11
They could actually take that money instead,
40:13
invest it into a new sort of maybe supply chain or part of that process
40:18
and eventually pay less because you don't have to pay that extra what
40:22
I call incentive, but basically
40:24
tax which nobody likes to pay ~ and then and then put it into there.
40:28
That's that's brilliant. ~ and I think it's it's good.
40:31
I'm sure a lot of people didn't like it off the a lot of business owners didn't like
40:34
it at the beginning, but it probably makes it cheaper at the end for them,
40:38
not only from the incentive, but usually when for the most part,
40:41
the upfront cost is a lot, but then at the end they end up they end
40:45
up making more profit because they're spending less money on on new packaging,
40:49
right? Yeah.
40:50
Absolutely. You know, they're
40:51
going to long term hopefully switch to more recyclable packaging,
40:56
more reusable packaging. They will pay less for that ~ packaging.
41:01
They are also all working together to do this.
41:04
So you don't have
41:05
Yeah.
41:05
that like, you know, competitive disadvantage of trying to be the good
41:09
one who changes first, but having to like go solo and and build
41:14
the system by yourself.
41:16
Right.
41:17
and
41:18
you know, at the end of the day,
41:19
it's gonna save all of us a bunch of money because we have all been paying
41:23
Yeah. Absolutely.
41:24
for this for the last, you know,
41:25
50 plus years
41:26
of having recycling. And so ~ we can better use,
41:30
you know, we can save money on our,
41:32
you know, trash bills and and
41:33
Yeah.
41:33
taxes and hopefully use that for other things that are,
41:38
you know, also super needed or helpful for the environment.
41:42
~ so yeah, I think it it's a real common sense policy that we've seen,
41:46
you know,
41:47
most of your Canadian provinces have it or or will have it in the next year or two,
41:52
I believe. ~
41:53
Yeah.
41:53
seven states have passed these types of laws just for plastics and packaging.
41:59
I mean, there's like a hundred for other types of materials,
42:03
you know, mattresses and pharmaceuticals and paint
42:05
Mm-hmm.
42:06
and carpet, you know, things that are just hard to manage at the end of their life.
42:10
It's it's
42:10
Yeah.
42:11
pretty standard practice to be like,
42:12
hey, you guys are the ones putting this out on the market.
42:15
You have to help
42:15
Clean up after yourselves.
42:17
I mean, that's I feel like that should be the policy for every type
42:21
of product that that's put out from oil and gas all the way to the clothes that
42:25
we wear. I'm happy to say, as you mentioned,
42:28
a lot of our provinces are coming up with the same thing.
42:30
Our federal government has come up with ~ has basically said that
42:34
any kind of plastic is toxic. And so there is this these bills where we've we've
42:40
banned single use plastic, certain types of single,
42:42
I think it's like six of them.
42:43
Mm-hmm.
42:43
that you can't
42:44
use and we're already starting to see the like takeout containers
42:46
and things like that, which is which is great.
42:48
It got challenged by the chemical industry,
42:51
but it got upheld
42:52
Mm-hmm.
42:52
thanks to a lot of partners ~ and NGOs and things like that to fight that bill,
42:57
which was great, and the government.
42:58
and we're starting to see like a registry be started ~ so that they're tracking
43:03
where these is where this end of life is.
43:05
And I think we're gonna start to see that hopefully in the near future.
43:08
~ there's lots of stuff going on in the world right now,
43:11
so I don't know where the priority is.
43:13
But I think
43:13
Mm-hmm.
43:14
that's it. It's it's it's hopeful to to see ~ what happens.
43:18
before I go into this, my next question,
43:20
I want to just revert back to the filter solution.
43:22
~ we know that a lot of ~ brands don't come out with like the washing machine brands
43:27
and and things don't come out with the actual filter on them.
43:30
Is there a way for people to like purchase the filter and mount
43:36
it on easily into their own washer?
43:40
Absolutely. ~ there are a bunch of these different filter options that
43:45
are available as like a retrofit or an external addition.
43:49
~ so I have one of them. I'm looking forward
43:51
Yeah.
43:52
to trying out a second one later this year.
43:54
~
43:54
Nice.
43:54
it was really easy to install.
43:56
They have kind of uniform piping that's kind of the same piping as everything else.
44:00
~ I put it right next to my washing machine.
44:03
You have a line that goes in and a line that goes out and just keeps going
44:07
out with my wastewater. ~ and it is
44:10
Quite literally the same as like a dryer lint sheet or ~ dryer trap.
44:14
Okay. So you just change you just empty it every once in a while.
44:17
So you empty it every once in a while.
44:19
The one I'm currently using is pretty big,
44:22
and so I haven't had to empty it for like two months now,
44:24
yeah. Nice. Okay.
44:26
which is awesome. Some of the other ones you empty more frequently,
44:30
but it's like you know, they're even smaller,
44:32
Just based on the size. Yeah. Yep.
44:33
easier to empty. ~
44:35
some have come up with this like mailback program where it's
44:39
canister and you mail back the canister,
44:41
they send you a clean canister.
44:43
~ interesting. Yeah.
44:43
~ so there's different options and lots of different technologies
44:46
out there. ~ and it's great. And you know,
44:51
right now it's pretty limited to the folks like me who want to raise their hand
44:54
and be like, I know about this problem and want to
44:56
Yeah.
44:57
tackle it, as opposed to making it as common as those lint traps on a dryer.
45:03
Right.
45:04
And so that's really the you know the goal of this campaign is to get folks
45:09
Asking, why is this not more common and how can we
45:11
Yeah.
45:12
make it more common? ~ and ultimately the answer is it's gonna require policy.
45:17
because again, folks aren't doing things out of the kindness of their heart alone.
45:22
So, how can we help give them that little bit of a nudge to push them
45:25
in the right direction ~
45:27
Yeah.
45:27
with policy that says, hey, by this date,
45:31
please sell at least 10% of all of your washing machines with this type of filter?
45:37
Great, let's
45:37
Right.
45:37
make it 30%, let's make it 50% over time,
45:41
kind of just like we've done with,
45:43
you know, energy star requirements or or other
45:45
Yeah.
45:46
products of saying, hey, we are tackling a new problem.
45:49
Let's do
45:50
Mm-hmm.
45:50
this all together. Let's slowly phase in this requirement.
45:54
And this is great because just reading off some of the stats,
45:57
~ Ocean Conservancy cites that roughly 90% capture rate for these filters.
46:02
So that's big. And with that, I'm sure as you poll people,
46:07
~ you know, your the the organization is polling Ocean Conservancy said that eight
46:12
out of 10 Americans support requiring these filters.
46:15
Does that type of public support translate into policy to,
46:19
you know, like essentially make them add it?
46:23
either either retrofit or on the new brands.
46:26
~ or is there a gap in the in like once once you come out with a poll eight
46:30
out of ten and you have a ninety percent capture rate.
46:32
Like these sounds like really good numbers.
46:34
And I know the capture rate like will vary by mesh size and different types
46:38
of filters and so forth. But I mean it sounds pretty promising.
46:39
Totally. Yeah.
46:41
Like
46:42
how come these this bill hasn't been created or put through or
46:46
is this something that's new?
46:48
Yeah. ~ a little bit of both. ~ you know,
46:52
our that polling is new, this this campaign is new,
46:54
and we're really hoping that it does help directly translate into policy this next
47:00
year because you're right, those numbers don't lie.
47:03
This is an eighty twenty issue and we can tackle ninety percent
47:07
of a microplastics problem. Sign me up.
47:10
Yeah.
47:11
and you know, there is opposition to the,
47:14
you know, new requirements and new
47:17
~ regulations, you know, just like there is for we were talking about with
47:22
SB 54 in California. There was opposition there too.
47:25
~ That's not new or unexpected.
47:29
It's just a challenge. And
47:29
Of course. Yeah.
47:31
so that's the other part of our goal with this campaign is how can we
47:36
get as many folks ~ supporting us,
47:40
reaching out to their legislators,
47:42
saying,
47:44
Hey, I care about this. I want this in my ~ washing machine too.
47:48
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
47:48
~ and
47:49
really making this a a uniform no-brainer ~ so we can actually start taking action
47:57
here at the state level.
47:58
Yeah. I I I
47:59
mean I think it's great because I think it's it's a lot of people,
48:02
you know, you just don't realize that these things are out there until it's made.
48:06
And then you're like, okay. And let's be honest,
48:08
we humans, we're not fans of change.
48:10
And so it's difficult to come up.
48:12
I mean, nobody liked the seatbelt when it was first added into the to the car.
48:15
And then now all of a sudden it's like we don't go anywhere without our seatbelt on,
48:18
or you shouldn't go anywhere without your seatbelt on.
48:19
Totally. Yeah. Yeah.
48:20
~
48:21
but I think it's the same it's the same kind of ~ kind of thing.
48:25
~ are there states that require filter?
48:28
Like filters on their ~ on their washers?
48:30
Okay.
48:31
Not yet. ~
48:33
and so this is this is kind of the thrust of this campaign is like how
48:36
can we get states to start doing this?
48:38
~
48:38
Yeah.
48:39
so there's been some early conversation,
48:41
states have introduced legislation,
48:43
~ which has been really helpful to start,
48:46
you know, hey, what
48:46
Yeah.
48:47
is what is opposition saying? What is the industry asking for?
48:51
How can we kind of come together and negotiate and and meet in the middle?
48:54
Right. Yeah.
48:55
~ so
48:55
I would say that's where we are right now is kind of
48:58
We've we've updated things and we are really ready for ~ hopefully states
49:02
to take this on next year. We have heard
49:04
Mm-hmm.
49:05
a ton of great excitement from a lot of different states ready to tackle this issue
49:10
next year. ~ and I think one thing that helps is like again,
49:14
absolute no-brainer, tons of public support,
49:17
tackling a big part of the crisis.
49:20
And it is just for new machines.
49:23
So this is not asking everyone to jump all at once.
49:26
It's very similar to what
49:27
You were just sitting with seatbelts.
49:29
It's like, hey, if you're gonna sell a new car in five years,
49:33
put a seatbelt in it. And that's basically all we're saying.
49:35
Yeah, right. Right.
49:36
It's like, hey,
49:37
we know this is a big issue. It's not going away overnight.
49:41
We need to take action across the entire life cycle of textiles.
49:45
We need to make better, you know,
49:46
use less plastics, ~ better design the plastic clothes that we are going
49:52
to continue to use.
49:52
Yeah. Yeah.
49:54
And there's
49:55
always going to be microplastic shedding from washing and we are always going
49:59
to wash our clothes. So you all start working on this issue.
50:03
That'll help us today. You know,
50:05
the manufacturers of clothes, they're starting to work on that issue as well.
50:09
How do we tackle these like broader systemic things?
50:12
Like we kind of need that that swish cheese approach where
50:16
Mm-hmm.
50:16
you know no one solution is perfect,
50:18
but we start putting them all together and then you're really
50:19
Yeah. Yep.
50:21
~ taking a big bite out of the the problem.
50:25
Now, ~ you know, we talk about I and I feel like filters are like something that's
50:29
not a huge thing to put for make like people who make washing machines like
50:33
the companies to put it on. ~ might add like a little extra step every couple
50:37
of months to to take out the filter and stuff,
50:40
but we do that with lint and people seem to be okay with it.
50:42
So I'm sure once it gets into production it won't be it won't be too,
50:45
too bad. ~ so that's one way of reducing the amount of microfibers that go in.
50:51
Now, probably the best way I would imagine
50:55
And I'm just going off the top of my head here,
50:57
would be not to buy clothes with these types of microfibers in there.
51:01
Is there a way individually that we could because I don't want to put it
51:04
all on the individuals, as a lot of things have happened and they blame individuals
51:08
Or
51:08
with phones and things like that?
51:10
how like, like,
51:13
are there ways for individuals to reduce their footprint by and ~
51:17
by buying specific types of clothing that would reduce the microfiber?
51:22
This is a tricky one because even our non-plastic textiles
51:27
Yeah.
51:28
often have a bunch of chemicals,
51:30
right? So even if it's
51:31
Right, right.
51:32
a hundred percent cotton, totally natural,
51:35
it has dyes and manufacturing chemicals and all sorts of other issues,
51:41
such that when you do the you know,
51:43
ecotoxicity and on aquatic species,
51:46
they're actually pretty similar in terms of
51:49
Hmm.
51:49
harm. ~
51:51
So that is not to say that there is not an answer here.
51:55
You know,
51:55
Yeah.
51:55
buying cotton or buying those,
51:57
you know, natural fibers. That's great.
51:59
Yeah.
51:59
That's less fossil fuel, right?
52:01
Plastics are directly made from fossil fuels,
52:01
Right. True.
52:03
that the
52:04
less plastics we're using, the better in general.
52:06
And ~ that doesn't mean that your washing machine is perfectly safe.
52:13
You know, there's still NSFW, not safe for wash things happening.
52:17
There
52:18
Mm-hmm.
52:18
are some general tips and tricks for kind of reducing.
52:21
reducing your amount of microfibers generated.
52:25
~ One, you know, getting a filter obviously helpful.
52:29
~ But even if you if you don't have that,
52:32
if you're a renter, if you if you're ~ don't have a a washing machine of your own,
52:36
for example, ~ washing full loads
52:40
~ on lower temperature with less soap tends to be like
52:47
the better answer here. So you're basically not
52:48
Interesting.
52:49
superheating
52:50
When you have a full load, there's less of that like physical agitation
52:56
on any given item of clothes.
52:58
Yep.
52:58
~ there's also some things, there's some,
53:02
you know, technologies out there that you can put into
53:05
the washing machine themselves.
53:07
~ I'm totally blanking. there's one that's called a Korra ball,
53:11
which is basically a little plastic ball.
53:15
~ it has all these little, you know,
53:17
things sticking out and
53:19
Like attracts like, so plastic attracts plastic.
53:22
~ so it kind
53:22
interesting.
53:23
of collects a lot of those little plastics out
53:25
there. Not quite as effective.
53:26
Does that go in your w washer or dryer?
53:29
It goes, ooh, that's a good question.
53:31
I've seen it in a washing machine before,
53:33
but I don't know. I
53:34
Okay.
53:34
feel like it should have the same philosophy in a dryer,
53:37
Yeah. Cause we use the static yeah,
53:38
but maybe check the website for that one.
53:41
no, we use the static balls for the dryer,
53:41
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
53:43
so you don't have to use the the sheets,
53:44
but
53:45
so I never heard of this one. This is I I'm interested in this.
53:48
Yeah. And then there's other
53:48
I'll look definitely look it up.
53:49
ones that are basically like a mesh bag.
53:53
So the same way
53:54
Yeah.
53:54
that these filters are basically mesh.
53:56
~ if you are washing a fleece,
54:00
which is
54:00
Yeah.
54:01
microplastic city, ~ you can put it in that mesh bag.
54:05
It gets caught in the bag as opposed to going out in the wastewater,
54:08
and then you can just wipe out the bag the same you would
54:11
Okay.
54:11
with the filter. So there are kind of some workarounds for folks
54:15
who are interested in taking action.
54:16
~
54:17
And hopefully in the the near future,
54:20
~ if you're looking to buy a new washing machine,
54:23
you'll have some that have these filters built
54:24
Yeah.
54:25
in.
54:26
That will be that will be very nice.
54:28
That'll be awesome. ~ so I guess like when we look at if you if you we kind
54:34
of go back sort of over like the overview and we look at
54:37
Mm.
54:38
a full you'd cover a full specter spectrum of of plastic policy.
54:43
~ and not just microfibers. Obviously it's a it's a pretty big part,
54:47
it's it's an important part. ~
54:48
Mm-hmm.
54:49
so how does like the the washing machine filter
54:54
~ like how
54:54
Mm-hmm.
54:54
does that fight, you know, to get that in connect with the bigger push towards
54:59
a circular economy?
55:01
Yeah, that's a great question.
55:02
~ the way that I think about it with our work is that there
55:07
are different types of plastic pollution and they're going
55:11
to require different types of solutions.
55:14
~ so what we're going to do to tackle single-use plastics and foodware
55:20
is going to look different than what we need to do for textiles is going
55:25
to look different than what we need to do for car tires that shed microplastics.
55:30
Paint that shed microplastics or ~ you know,
55:34
microplastics that are intentionally created small.
55:37
Mm-hmm.
55:37
So our
55:38
primary microplastics. ~ so for this ~ part of the microplastic crisis,
55:44
like this is a huge bite of the apple,
55:47
right? This would be a huge
55:48
yeah.
55:49
solution once it's at scale.
55:52
and I think it helps kind of feed into this broader narrative about getting ~
55:59
policy and the manufacturers of these,
56:02
you know, different ~
56:05
Products to kind of help us be more responsible together.
56:09
Everyone's
56:09
Yeah.
56:10
t contributing, everyone's playing a role,
56:13
~ everyone's paying their fair share.
56:16
So a producer of a single-use plastic is going to help pay for the recycling.
56:21
A producer of a washing machine is going to help pay for some of the filters.
56:25
We're going to help pay for some of the filters.
56:28
You know, if you're a car manuf tire manufacturer,
56:31
hopefully you'll help figure out how to pay for
56:32
Yeah.
56:33
some of you know improvements to.
56:35
Yep.
56:36
Or
56:36
maybe green infrastructure, ~ all of those different pieces.
56:40
So it's kind of that broader narrative of part of creating this circular economy
56:44
~ is not letting producers get away with it.
56:49
It's internalizing all of those costs that right now you and
56:55
I and the environment are facing
56:58
Yeah.
56:58
so that we can move forward together by actually accounting for.
57:03
all of the harm that these plastics are doing ~ in a way that you know
57:08
our economy can deal with which is
57:10
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
57:11
dollars and cents.
57:13
That's really interesting. ~ with everything going on with all
57:16
the things that you're working on over the next year,
57:18
Mm.
57:18
like what's the win you're hoping for?
57:21
That's like on your wish list.
57:24
what's on my wish list? ~
57:27
my wish list is that ~ at least one,
57:32
maybe two states pass a requirement for new washing machines
57:38
to phase in these microplastic filters.
57:42
Yeah. I think that'd be a great win.
57:44
We've talked a lot about state legislation.
57:47
~
57:48
Mm-hmm.
57:49
and and I think it's great. federally though,
57:53
we're in a little predicament worldwide,
57:56
but also in the US, especially where where most of your work is done.
58:00
~
58:00
Mm-hmm.
58:02
has Ocean Conservancies sort of,
58:04
you know, the the the the the Trump administration is not known to
58:07
be the most environmentally friendly or putting policies together that would help.
58:11
probably advance on a federal level.
58:12
~ is is it sort of your sort of direction to get more wins at this point
58:19
in time to do more state level ~ work instead of federal level
58:24
as it's probably harder to work with federal level?
58:27
Or maybe are we still pal are you still able to pass policies through
58:30
the federal level even with this administration?
58:33
Yeah, I mean we are we are trying to make progress wherever we can find it.
58:38
~
58:39
Gotcha.
58:39
so a similar bill ~ to requiring these these washing machines to have
58:45
a filter was introduced federally,
58:47
which is super exciting because I think it helps states,
58:51
you know, see this is tried and tested policy if this is being introduced
58:55
Yeah.
58:56
in Congress. And I think it also helps give this sense of it's an
59:01
when not an if this type of policy is coming,
59:04
you know, if you have federal interests.
59:06
So ~ you know, we are, even if it's not getting past,
59:10
we're still pushing forward these policy conversations federally because
59:14
it it does help
59:14
Yeah.
59:15
kind of there's that feedback loop off of each other.
59:18
~ you know, regardless of the administration,
59:23
I will just say we have not done much
59:28
Proactive work on plastics at the federal level since the microplastics,
59:34
since the Microbeads Free Waters Act.
59:36
That was
59:36
Mm.
59:38
2014, 2015. so it's been a second.
59:40
Right. Okay. Yep.
59:43
There's been a couple different,
59:43
Administrations. Yeah, for sure.
59:44
you know, administrations since then.
59:46
~ and so I think this speaks to a couple things.
59:50
One, ~ a lot of these problems have been kind of delegated to the state level.
59:56
So states really
59:56
Gotcha.
59:57
are on the front line of this issue.
59:59
~ so where we're doing a lot of work there because states are the ones dealing with
1:00:04
the consequences and paying the price.
1:00:06
~ and as you noted, are better at moving quicker.
1:00:10
they are the front lines of, you know,
1:00:10
Right. Yeah.
1:00:12
they're the the testing ground for democracy,
1:00:14
Yeah, for sure.
1:00:15
as we say. So, you know,
1:00:16
they will hear things, test things out,
1:00:19
have make have these, you know,
1:00:21
negotiations and stakeholder conversations and actually pass.
1:00:25
exciting new policy.
1:00:25
Yeah. Yeah.
1:00:28
and I think it means that this needs to be this needs
1:00:33
to become like climate change almost at the at the federal level,
1:00:37
Yeah. Right.
1:00:38
where
1:00:38
this is not a, you know, a red versus blue issue.
1:00:43
No.
1:00:43
This
1:00:43
is not a like three-person pet project.
1:00:46
Like this needs to be something that every single member of Congress
1:00:49
is hearing about from folks
1:00:50
Yeah.
1:00:51
back home so that we can have this like
1:00:54
full-throated effort in Congress
1:00:56
Yeah.
1:00:57
to really take action. ~
1:00:59
Yeah.
1:01:00
And I think that's on all of us as you know science communications,
1:01:04
ocean communicators, ~ and and ocean conservancy,
1:01:08
you know, as a as an advocacy organization to make sure
1:01:11
Mm-hmm.
1:01:12
that we are getting all of our members ~ engaged and kind of carrying
1:01:16
Yeah.
1:01:17
that message up to Congress so that when they're back in session,
1:01:22
whether that's this year or next year or
1:01:24
You know, three years from now,
1:01:25
five years from now, ~ they know this is an issue that is top of mind for Americans.
1:01:31
Absolutely. Absolutely. Now, people listening to this always like to do something,
1:01:36
you know, whether it's on their own or ~ beyond.
1:01:37
love that. Yeah.
1:01:40
So so from
1:01:41
from your perspective, other than doing things like changing their own habits,
1:01:45
what can they do beyond that that's like the most useful thing that they'd
1:01:50
be able to do?
1:01:51
Yeah. ~ I would recommend folks head
1:01:53
to oceanconservancy.org slash NsfW,
1:01:58
not safe for wash, ~
1:01:59
Okay. Gotcha.
1:02:02
to kind of check out the campaign and learn how they can they can join
1:02:06
us in taking action, whether that's contacting their representatives,
1:02:10
~
1:02:10
Mm-hmm.
1:02:11
you know, letters, ~ joining us for live streams,
1:02:16
learning more.
1:02:17
Yeah.
1:02:17
running
1:02:17
bills in their state. You know,
1:02:19
there's kind of a whole host of tools there for folks
1:02:21
Right.
1:02:22
to get engaged however they see fit.
1:02:25
Yeah.
1:02:26
And then we also have a lot more of those tips of what can you do at home right
1:02:30
Right.
1:02:30
now. So there's kind of a a choose your own adventure for how folks want
1:02:34
to engage with us. ~ All at oceanconservancy.org.
1:02:39
Love it. And you know what I love?
1:02:40
As someone who's Canadian, I think this is a lot of this stuff can happen
1:02:44
in our own countries as well. You can take the you can go to the website,
1:02:47
which we'll put in the show notes,
1:02:48
but you can go there and you can kind of take it if you're not in the US,
1:02:51
that's okay. Take the same sort of tactics,
1:02:54
call your local representatives,
1:02:55
look for these filters that you can put in yourself,
1:02:58
like all these different things.
1:02:59
You can join the live ~ you know,
1:03:01
Zoom calls or or or you know, online calls and virtual meetings and stuff like that
1:03:06
to
1:03:06
participate and get more information to apply to your own place
1:03:09
of wherever you live, whether it's in the US or outside.
1:03:12
Anya, this has been so great to be able to talk plastic pollution and and
1:03:16
to be able to talk about all the work that Ocean Conservancy and and
1:03:19
and your team has done to be able to like what you've been able to accomplish,
1:03:24
I think is is phenomenal. Love to have you back on talk more plastic pollution
1:03:28
and and see where we can get more awareness of what's happening beyond
1:03:32
the plastic straws, beyond the plastic bags and really talk about s
1:03:36
like
1:03:36
how we can systematically install policy ~ in any country to be able to reduce this.
1:03:41
Cause I think this is one of the biggest like,
1:03:43
you know, pandemics that we have in terms of of plastic pollution.
1:03:47
It's just everywhere. And so we need to we need to solve it.
1:03:50
And and I love the work that you guys are doing ~ to be able to do that.
1:03:53
So so thank you so much for the work and then your team's work and and coming
1:03:56
on the podcast to tell us.
1:03:58
Yeah, well thanks thanks for having me.
1:03:59
I'm happy to come back and and talk plastics ~ anytime.
1:04:03
I mean, I think you said it well.
1:04:04
Plastic pollution does not know or obey any ~ global boundaries,
1:04:10
so we shouldn't we shouldn't either.
1:04:10
Exactly.
1:04:12
Absolutely, absolutely. Wonderful.
1:04:14
Thank you so much.
1:04:16
Thank you, Anya, for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect
1:04:18
the Ocean podcast. Look, I know there's a lot of stuff going on in the world.
1:04:22
And if there's one thing that we can do to keep it from being better,
1:04:26
whether it's you know, reducing your climate impact,
1:04:29
reducing your plastic pollution impact,
1:04:31
that's what we can do. And if it's easy as putting a filter on a
1:04:35
on a washing machine or getting an adapter for your washing machine
1:04:37
or buying a washing machine with the filter on it,
1:04:40
then we can do that. It's not that much,
1:04:42
it's not that bad.
1:04:44
And I think it's something that we can reduce,
1:04:45
like if we can reduce 90% of that just in your household alone,
1:04:49
that's incredible. And to be able to put that adaption on,
1:04:52
I think is gonna be great. I mean,
1:04:54
we have lint, you know, lint, ~ what do you call them?
1:04:56
Containers or lint catchers, I guess what you call them,
1:04:59
or filters. we have that that we have to take out every once in a while
1:05:02
of the dryer. Let's do it with the washers too,
1:05:03
so that we can reduce our impact from our clothes.
1:05:06
And and and to be honest, like buy clothes a little more guilt-free.
1:05:09
You know, obviously we don't want to buy too many or over like,
1:05:13
you know, get too materialistic in our age.
1:05:15
But like I live in North America,
1:05:16
we all know what it's like. And ~ if you can reduce this one thing,
1:05:19
that could that would be it. Just putting a filter on your washing machine
1:05:23
and your whole household reduces their microfiber pollution by ninety percent,
1:05:27
up to ninety percent. That's actually amazing.
1:05:29
So ~ Anya, just ~ thank you so much for joining us today.
1:05:32
It was great to have you on. Looking forward to having you back on.
1:05:35
we'll go check out the links to the Ocean Conservancy and their plastic pollution
1:05:39
program. I'll put it in the show notes.
1:05:41
And of course, if you have any questions for me,
1:05:43
if you're listening to this on Spotify and you have a question,
1:05:45
just put it in the comments. I'll I'll be sure to check them.
1:05:48
And of course, if you if you're not on listening to this on Spotify
1:05:51
and you're listening to this on another ~ podcast app,
1:05:53
for by the way, every podcast app should have a comment section.
1:05:56
I think that's wonderful. But you can just ~ you can just DM me
1:05:59
on Instagram or TikTok. My links are in there,
1:06:02
are in the show notes as well,
1:06:03
Facebook as well.
1:06:04
any kind of social media that I'm pretty much on.
1:06:06
All the links are in the show notes.
1:06:08
but that's it for today's episode.
1:06:10
I want to thank Anya for joining us.
1:06:11
I want to thank the Ocean Conservancy for making her available to us
1:06:14
and all the work that they do on the plastic pollution in the ocean
1:06:17
and making awareness and having programs to decrease the amount that we that
1:06:21
we put out there. ~ and I want to thank you for listening and
1:06:24
for you for participating in some of these actions that we do.
1:06:26
If you do end up putting a filter on,
1:06:28
let me know. I'd love to tag me in a post or anything I'd love to hear from
1:06:32
you and what your experience was like.
1:06:34
But other than that, thank you so much for joining me on today's episode
1:06:36
of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
1:06:38
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin. Have a great weekend.
1:06:40
We'll talk to you on Monday in happy conservation.