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What I've Learnt - Jane Harper · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Award-winning author Jane Harper taps into the insatiable desire for authentic crime thrillers with the dry, her best-selling novel that has put her firmly on the international stage with more than a million copies sold globally so far.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: The story features a desperate tale of murder and mystery set against the arid outback and drought-stricken Australian landscape.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: In the book, the tragic tale of an unexplained murder-suicide rocks a small rural town set against a backdrop of drought and isolation.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: In the book, Luke Hadler turns a gun on his wife and child, then himself.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: The farming community of Kiawara is facing life and death choices daily.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: If one of their own broke under the strain, well, a powerful tale of fear, loss, secrets, and love, the film version starring Australian screen legend Eric Banner, has just taken more than$10 million at the box office.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: So, Jane is definitely a powerful storyteller who has captured the Australian essence and ethos.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: But in truth, she's captured universal themes of trauma, betrayal, survival.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: This is also reflected in her new book, The Survivors, with The Guardian describing it as portraying a sense of a place so vivid you can almost feel the blistering heat.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: And the Sydney Morning Herald stating there is something mythical and valiant, a quintessential Australian story beautifully told.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: So where did all this start?
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Actually born in Manchester, Jane moved back to Australia, eventually taking up an opportunity as a business journalist, in which she says she wrote hundreds of words most days.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Good training for her soon-to-be fiction writing.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: In 2014, Jane submitted a short story, which was one of 12 chosen for the big issues annual fiction edition.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: That inspired her to pursue creative writing more seriously, writing daily before and after work, breaking through the dry at the Victoria Premier's Literary Awards in 2015.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, as a fellow journalist, I'm inspired by her success, which I think in part is a reflection of her eye for detail, her authenticity, and her penchant for a good crime thriller.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, Jane, welcome to the What I've Learned podcast.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: So much to explore and unpack here.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: Firstly, I have to mention we were both journalists at the Herald Sun, and while I'm a slightly different generation, that really was a wonderful stomping ground for any journal.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: I learned a lot there.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: What about you?
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: What did it teach you about writing?
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, yeah, being a journalist um taught me so much about writing.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it was surprising to me when I then moved from being a journalist to fiction writing, exactly quite how much of it was transferable, because they'd always seemed to me like very different skills.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: But um there were certainly the practical elements, um, like you know, writing to a deadline, being able to express yourself clearly on paper.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: And um I think the key one, which is knowing that um when I was at, I don't know about you, but when I was um training, they always uh told us, you know, be assume that people won't read to the end of your article.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, people get bored and they they they turn the page or they they look away, they do something else.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: So your job is to kind of grab them early and keep them engaged as long as possible.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was something that I absolutely consider every time I sort of write fiction now.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm always aware that people can close the book at any time.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I try and you know kind of get them, get them early, yeah, with the book and with each chapter, and then keep them engaged the whole way through.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: So that hopefully they just want to read, you know, a couple more pages.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's actually interesting because I remember that being a very important part.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that notion of making sure that you keep the and you engage the reader, which is something obviously you do.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um so do you think um it was challenging starting to fiction write?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because I mean, you talk about in the TED talk, creativity and your control, um, you talk about having to become a technician of sorts, which I thought was really interesting, that it's actually about structure and and uh not dissimilar to to writing a journalistic piece, but obviously with a different mission.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Can you talk to me about that a little bit?
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I'm I'm a big um look, I I think one of the things that really held me back for a lot of years from writing fiction was this um kind of false belief that that you know inspiration had to strike, you know, and one day um I'd have this block of time open up, I'd have this great idea would hit me in its entirety, and I would just write my book, you know, and and it took me years to honestly realize that wasn't going to happen.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: And um when I did sort of kind of wake up to myself and realize that that wasn't gonna happen.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: If I was going to write a book, I had to do it around my full-time job.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we've all got commitments, family and things, and um that's probably never gonna go away.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: You're always gonna have to have things you work around.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I sort of realized that first of all.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then secondly, um, I think the big thing was um realizing that you know, a novel is a it's such a it's a marathon effort, you know, and it's it's not something that's gonna come in one go.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um and a lot of it is gonna be trial and error and layering things and and you know, seeing what works and trying out different ideas.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, um having a bit of structure behind that is is the best way to um really you know let the creative ideas flow.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you can, if you can kind of, for me anyway, if I sort of plan and I have an idea of what I need to do and how I'm going to execute it, um it sort of um it means I'm not juggling all the balls at once.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I can kind of separate out a process into different steps, which makes, you know, I think anything a bit easier to tackle.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, really what you're saying is it's like a scaffolding that you're building, and that you can, it's like if you were creating uh, you know, building something, anything, that your scaffolding is quite important.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: So can you, for example, take so do you have a beginning, middle, and end, as I'm sure as all writers usually plan, but but how detailed is that scaffolding when you're planning?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean scaffolding is a really good way to describe it.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and I think what what I what I do, and I always tell people works for me, and this this I should say this doesn't necessarily work for everybody.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: All authors have a different way of approaching things, and what works for you is what works for you.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need to change it if it's working.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, um, so separating things out really helps.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I will um the first thing I do is I I spend a lot of time thinking about an idea and really running it through my head, sort of all these different scenarios before I actually settle and commit to writing about something.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: Then when I've you know feel I've settled on that idea, then I'm looking at big picture stuff.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm thinking about beginning, middle, end, um kind of the maybe the main character, who's going to be sort of involved in bringing this book to really the most important bit, which is the end, the conclusion, these two people who have kind of had this sort of extreme interaction of whatever it may look like.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'm thinking about a setting, what kind of setting might support this sort of story?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and at this point, I'm not thinking about anything else, any of the small stuff like characters' names, the title of the book, um, you know, complex backstories.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really just trying to get like the bones of it straight in my head.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then it's a question of just kind of um yeah, adding on to that and layering things in, because once the the bones of it are set, then it's a lot easier to start thinking about those more detailed things.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, um, you know, who are these characters, what's their relationship with this setting or this town or um with each other, what are you know, what keeps them awake at night, what are they, how much do they know about what's really going on.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you start to sort of then you start to kind of name them and think about their how they interact with each other, um, how you're best going to tell the story.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's when I start to think about the the more specifics of the the actual execution of the writing.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's how I do it.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: I do, you know, I do a bit of thinking, I do big picture thinking, and then I'm gradually kind of whittling it down to the smaller stuff.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: Even to the point I read, um I thought it was a great comment when you said you even worked out which coffee each each character would would drink eventually.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, for example, you know, Aaron Falk was a flat flat white coffee man because he was a Melbourne man.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: I love that comment in the New York Times article.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: It was just brilliant.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: That was really journalistic.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's funny because um, because actually that's something though, um, that I I wouldn't come till to quite late.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like that's not something I would um I think that's the point where I try to get to to the point where by you know the time I'm fully kind of engaged with with writing this book and you know I do know the characters well enough that I can I could work out you know what they would what they would probably order.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um but again, I think it's really important not to get bogged down in essentially actually in some inconsequential details.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like it doesn't really matter what they order.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um it kind of it's kind of important, I think, to eventually know them well enough that you could work it out.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: But um certainly when you're starting out, um don't um don't waste valuable like creative energy worrying about those little things that may never have any impact on the book.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: You want to get like the you want to you want to get the the core things down so clear in your mind that those those little things um kind of occur naturally.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that makes they're more organic in the way that they emerge, makes complete sense.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, yeah.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so what made you decide to use the Australian Outback as your backdrop?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, do you have a rural experience other than I know you were a journalist on some rural papers?
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: You seem to have a great affinity and empathy for the often isolated communities your characters inhabit.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Is the isolation part of the storyline strategy?
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, look, it's it's it's a few reasons.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's the um the creative reasons are really the the fact that I just I just love the landscape that Australia has.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's so diverse.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's a lot of opportunity for you know really great stories to come out of those kind of settings.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I like the fact that a lot of those locations have a sort of a natural element of danger in that um, you know, it could be quite low level, but at the same time it's there, and it means that the characters are kind of forced to um you know live their lives in certain ways, just being aware of you know of the kind of the pressures that are on them day to day from um from the natural environment.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um then from a more sort of technical point of view, I I like it because um I always try and write the kind of books that I would like to read.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I personally like mysteries that are kind of contained within a bubble, um, where the the story you know evolves and plays out and then resolves itself within this sort of set cast of characters and a location.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I find with the you know the slightly more um isolated settings, um, you know, it forces those characters to interact.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, it's not like in a an urban environment where you've got a thousand people coming and going, and it's easy to escape what's happening.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in those sort of more claustrophobic settings, you have to kind of stay and and see how things play out, really.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: So that that's that those are the main reasons why I'm sort of drawn to those areas.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's quite clever.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: I get that you force your characters onto the stage by doing that.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's clever.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: I really think that's interesting.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: The victims of the crimes are mainly women.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: Are you saying something about their vulnerability, especially when isolated?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you do have quite a strong, you know, whether it's Bronte and the Survivors or or I mean, you seem to, you know, really be saying something important there about the vulnerability of women.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think, yeah, with the books, um, one thing I'm really conscious of when I'm writing them is I don't I don't set out particularly to um make any particular statement with them.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's more about trying to really authentically reflect um, you know, life and I guess the the you know relationships and the you know emotions that play out when when people in modern society interact.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, it's it's something that when I'm when I'm sort of choosing the characters and you know, like I do know the whole story, like I know exactly what sort of played out, and um, and there's reasons why, you know, I I decide that per certain people will play certain roles in the in the books.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's always because um when you know, when you get to the end of the book, um the conclusion needs to feel, you know, I think, um, hopefully sort of sadly believable.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: And you can imagine this is the kind of thing that could happen, and it's because it's the kind of things I guess that um yeah, we do read about in, you know, in news stories and we hear, you know, we hear about in discussions with with um you know in in society.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: So so that's so rather than sort of setting out to to make a point, I think uh it's more about trying to accurately reflect um things that happen.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, interesting, which it's often women, isn't it, anyway, in the news, um, who fall victim to crime um of that nature.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: So another interesting tool that I noticed, you use the force of nature like a storm, which is a classic theatrical tool to signal transition or danger.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Or so nature plays a big role in all of your books: the sea, the dry riverbed.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they're all really powerful symbols that you use.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that image of, you know, them walking through the dry riverbed, you know, Erin walking through the dry riverbed.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: Talk to me about that because they're very classic theatrical tools and you use them really well, I think.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um is that something that you've studied or something that just you know organically emerged for you?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, thank you.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I um I'm I'm glad that I guess I'm glad that sort of um comes across to to readers, um, because I do think it's um it's not something I sort of am hugely sort of um consciously again setting out to do, but I think it it falls into that category of trying to tell the story in the best possible way.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and for me, um a big part of that is um weaving the setting through the novel rather than just um using it as a kind of as a backdrop or a prop.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think it's really important to um, well, I think it's a shame actually when you when you know a setting is is sort of is not made the most of.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think um by by weaving it in and making it really part of the story, and by that I mean, you know, it it sort of um it informs you know the character's behavior and who they are, you know, maybe as as children, um, how that environment has shaped them then as adults, um, what kind of um you know said before what pressures they put on them, both on a personal and maybe a business level, um, what's their sort of responses to any changes in that environment.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, for example, in the dry when um the lead character returns to his hometown and what he remembers as being kind of lush and green is just you know barren and desolate in so many ways.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um so it's things like that, I think, where you know the landscape just has this opportunity to um give the reader a bit of an insight into um the character, and that's and that's mainly um that's mainly the approach that I take with it.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: But well, it works really well, I think.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um also I noticed your books are quite accessible, um, they're very easy to read.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like you just once you're in there, you just go on the journey.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's something that um it may be from your journalistic origins, but it's also you entrench the reader quite beautifully.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, did you have an audience in mind when you were writing?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Who did you think would read your book?
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, I think um so definitely for the first one, I thought the audience would be an audience of one, which was basically me, and maybe I could convince my parents and to read it.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um so that was um, so I think you know, it that was actually an incredibly kind of liberating mindset, though, because I really, I really thought nobody would ever read The Dry.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: I I honestly did not think that would see the light of day.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I I was able to just go for it, you know.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: I just wrote exactly what I wanted to without really any fear of what anybody would ever say about it.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I I like I said I try and write the kind of books that I would like to read.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I I just at every turn thought, you know, what as a reader, what would I like to know now?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: What would what do I sort of want to see happen?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and then um it's yeah, it obviously does change when you get the the publishing contracts and you know that people are, I guess, going to read them and they're gonna be published.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: It does sort of change the mindset a little bit.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: But I think you can get overwhelmed if you think too much about, you know, um the readers collectively.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think again, I always try and come back to that um that core of you know, what would what would what would I like to see?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's funny though, because I I always wanted I think I always wanted them to be really accessible.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted them to be books um that were entertainments.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I remember um you know saying saying to someone once, I'd I'd love them to be the kind of books that people would, you know, buy in an airport to take on holiday.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: And and sometimes people sort of turn up their nose a little bit at that and think, oh, well, you know, you can aim a little bit higher.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: Or, but for me, that's the sort of ultimate um compliment, I think, when someone has, you know, some some leisure time and they they want something to entertain them.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: And if they for them to choose a book, and particularly like my book, to to spend their precious downtime, you know, is is is exactly kind of the the perfect reader for me.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: So um that that's I guess um if if I do have a target, I suppose that's that's what I'm you know, I'd love to aim aim at.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, well that that really comes across because I think that's I love the the way that there's a sort of um, yeah, a great accessibility.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: And and it comes across as something that you, you know, you write as if anyone can come into this story and read it.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it doesn't have that that uh um I suppose there's also it's not super dense in the sense that you get lost.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes there's you know, sometimes there's such complex scripts and structures, and you know, that there's a simplicity of sorts, and I think that's something that comes comes across beautifully, makes it very appealing.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: I also actually um I remember as well, especially um when I was writing the drive, thinking about you know, when I did think a little bit about where where do I want to sort of um, what kind of tone do I want to strike with it, I guess.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and part of it was I I think the benefit of being an author is you can you can place it exactly where you you like your books to be.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: So in terms of I don't like a lot of violence and I don't like sort of, you know, gratuitous scenes, I like things to be very necessary for you know the plot.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I I specifically wanted the books to be something that um I felt you could you could pass on to your elderly mother or your teenage child, you know, or your neighbour or your friend or your book club, and you could just kind of share them with people.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they would they would hit that mark where um you know there wasn't really anything in them that you you wouldn't feel comfortable sharing with your your relatives, your friends.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: So that was that was another thing that I thought was you know, it was really important to me and still is when I'm writing.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, that's what everyone did.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone did pass on to everyone, which is why it did so well, it's doing so well.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um so so I'm interested.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: I have to ask you one question too.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: In both The Survivors and The Dry, the use of backpacks really interested me.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: I know it's just a little thing, but you know, the backpack that's wedged in the in the um the cliff or in the little cliff face, the backpack as a messenger, um, or you know, you open it up and what's in here, and that had all the you know the elements of the victim in that backpack.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Where did that come that idea come from?
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's sort of something you've reflected, and I I it's really effective, actually, because it's a very strong visual.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, it's funny you should mention that because actually on a sort of you know metaphor level, it really doesn't mean anything.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um again, it sort of comes back to just trying to reflect, you know, real people.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, real people, especially teenagers, tend to, you know, with them.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, like a school bag or or whatever they have, they have, you know, they have bits and pieces, and and um, and that was sort of it was more of a practical tool.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um and um it's funny though, because I I never really um you know, I I I never really thought too closely about it because I think also those books.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: were written several years apart.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: And and the um you know so it wasn't the the there wasn't sort of a a sort of a big link in my mind um um between between the but I guess then the thing is also about um the funny thing about writing books is that even though you know you write books you know um five years apart sometimes people discover a series and they read them in five weeks you know these are sort of back to back and people sort of see see links I guess um or parallels that um that that never really occurred to me as an author but I I think you know um yeah that a big part of it I think is is really sometimes things do um I guess themes and things do sort of re recur mainly because I think um people often yeah we often we all are kind of the same deep down in a way we all have the same sort of practical needs and um you know the same reactions to things um so sometimes part of I think being authentic is is you know reflecting I guess the similarities between people who also have like quite different lives on the surface.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah uh that makes that makes a lot of sense actually and as an Australian writer what are your thoughts about the future of publishing I mean it seems COVID has ironically provided people with a lot of time to read they want to escape like in times of war books and lipsticks are the the sales go through the roof I mean you know those two things which is really interesting um it makes sense because people are much more in their internal world they're not out in the world so to speak um so it's a very fortuitous time except obviously the release of the film was challenging because obviously people couldn't go to the cinema but it still did extremely well which says something in itself so really um what are your thoughts about the role of books in giving us comfort during times of crisis yeah I mean it's it has been really interesting seeing um you know what people turn to you know when they're um you know when we're under this sort of global global strain.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope um yeah look I I hope there'll always be like a place for books.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think there'll always be readers and um there'll always be I guess maybe changes in the way people consume the books.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know we had ebooks um you know obviously a few years ago now and and audiobooks are you know becoming a really popular and um and I think it's great that people have an opportunity to sort of consume those in the in the ways they want to.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I think people always love a good story.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: And um I guess it's just going it shows that the people will always be drawn to that.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean you mentioned with the the film I mean it was the the film the dry was um due to be released a a number of times in 2020 and then it was delayed because the cinemas were closed and then um luckily you know here in Australia we obviously got our numbers to the point where the cinemas could reopen and it it was able to reopen on it was able to open on New Year's Day which is a really fantastic slot for an Australian film.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: And now yeah several weeks on it's still performing really well and um people are still going to see it and I think um it's been really lovely I think to yeah the way people have um I suppose wanted something to wanted something to enjoy and wanted some sort of pure entertainment because it has been a really you know it's been a really hard 12 months for everybody.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: So you know it's great that people kind of have have that outlet as well.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well it was superb I saw it and it was absolutely superb.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting though just on that note as a writer you know um how hard is it to relinquish your art or book to a team of producers um because I know other writers who have done that relinquished in order for the film to come to fruition and struggled with that transition and felt that quite challenging how did you navigate that yeah look I mean it is a big leap of faith to I think pass your your work on to someone else to make their own creative work from it.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: It helps a lot I think if you have your faith in a team so yeah the book was the dry was optioned by Bruna Papandrea who is an Australian now working in LA and who has got some amazing kind of credits to her name so Big Little Lies is the one that you know I mean everybody you know yeah um and and so I think you know knowing someone of her caliber was the producer on it and then um Robert Connolly who wrote the screenplay and directed it um I met with him like quite a few times over the the course of several years um really to discuss things and and you know um talk about you know ideas for it and and and so I had a really good feeling about you know the way he was he was approaching it and I knew it was in really safe hands with him.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then to have someone like Eric Banner you know this beloved Australian actor on board playing the type of role which has had such an incredible response from readers who have really really embraced him in the character of Aaron Falk um so you you've got you've got all these sort of key people plus many many others who have sort of contributed their talents to the film and so that gave me a lot of confidence um I got to go up there actually and and be in it.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know did you see did you see me acting in the film when you saw where were you where which where were you in the film?
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me where were you you have to I have to say you do you do have to pay attention you can't look down at your popcorn and think or you'll you'll miss it.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: But um I'm I'm right at it's right at the start in like the um it's it's it's it's in the first sort of you know minute maybe in the funeral um me and my husband are sitting in a second row of the of the of the in the church playing grieving towns people um there's a few of my family and friends scattered in the among the crowd as well um and then the wake you know sort of I don't know holding a place of Lamingtons or something sort of so so um you know some really quality extras acting there um next time you see it'll have to I will be keeping an eye out for you but I love that because in a way I love that that's also testimony to your relationship with the producers the director they obviously felt that they could bring you on board and involve you in the process and it would be a positive in even to the point of inserting you in the film which is really quite exciting.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: And you that's right well I I mean I mean how yeah if someone says look would you like to be in a in a a major motion picture starting at Dana and you know you like you you say yes don't you I mean what could be better and he was brilliant in the role let's agree I mean he wasn't he yeah really quite extraordinary I thought um funnily enough a lot of your characters and I I've I've reflected this as well and he was so good at this for the for the very reason that many of your main characters actually have a quiet reflective in a almost a silence about them.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: They don't have to you know that there's a sort of a brooding nature and you know something's bubbling they're often the ones that carry the big secrets and I think that's why he was a great choice because he's one of those people he can be on screen he doesn't have to say a lot he can just I agree yeah and I think you know because in the in the in the book um Aaron Fork is you know physically described you know different um differently from you know Aaron Banner's physical appearance so in the book you know fork has um he's he's very he's very blonde and fair um and the the reason I did that actually in the book was because I wanted him to be a real kind of fish out of the water in this in this sort of parched town where he he he he not only was sort of unwelcome on a personal level but he really struggled even with you know the the sun you know and the and the heat you know he's not he wasn't good um in the physical environment either um but that was you know that really is only one sort of small part of his character and the main part of his character that I thought was really important was the fact that he has a very he has a good heart and he really wants to do the right thing um and he and he is able to forge sort of good relationships with you know the local people and these people he knew from the past um but you know it's it's about trying to overcome this stigma you know from his his teenage years so I I thought it was so crucial that yeah the actor they chose was yeah firstly Australian um but secondly someone that audiences would warm to and they would want to follow him on this journey and I just thought um Eric Banner's performance was was so like so beautiful and you know you absolutely are kind of invested in this man and um you want to see what happens to him and you want you want things to work out for him but you're you're not sure if they're going to and I thought he um yeah I could not imagine anybody better playing that role he he really like knocks it out of the park I thought totally agree with that assessment I think it was he was brilliant um just just finally I wanted to just ask you um do you as an Australian writer think it's possible to actually earn a living and to or do you need a global impact in order to survive in the literary world?
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: Do you you know is it because I know other authors um some of whom are thriving some of whom are struggling and they're very very high end but but at the end of the day what's your perspective on this yeah that's a really good question um and I can only I guess I can only sort of speak for myself um in that um you know I I mean I was a professional writer for years as a journalist um so you know I I guess I've always sort of thought of writing as being something you could make a living out of um and and that's always that was even my approach really when I came to write fiction I always felt like you know it's it's great if this is your creative passion but also you deserve to be compensated for that you know people should not have to you know do this this work that sort of you know you know entertains people but also creates jobs for for printers and booksellers and delivery drivers and editors and cover designers um you know all the all these your books create a lot of jobs and they they are part of a really important industry and it's not it's not just about one author being able to fulfil their creative talents and I and I wish you know um I guess that was more widely understood um that supporting authors and paying them fairly and allowing people you know in in all creative industries you know I'm talking you know all kinds of artistic pursuits it's not just about one person living their dream it's actually about supporting an industry that you know creates millions in tax dollars and um absolutely creates jobs and keeps people employed.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: So um that's that's always the approach that you know um I you know I I hope people understand and I would like to see sort of more more commonly accepted really I think that's such an excellent point and in fact it it's across the board in the creative arts I mean often creative arts by definition is collaborative as you've outlined whether you're making a film or whether you're writing a book it's got to be published and the printers and the designers and all of the above so I think that's a really really important issue and hopefully um the creative arts gets more and more support and particularly has had quite a um a hit through COVID but I must say you're a great success story and very inspirational to a lot of young and older writers um you know it's really impressive just finally can you tell me what are you reading right now and what are you listening to podcast music oh yeah yeah good question um so at the moment um I'm literally about to start a book um it's it's not out yet I think it's out in um in March um and it's by um Jessie Stevens who is who actually works with Mamma Mia she's you know she's a podcaster and she's a sort of um she's one of their kind of lead creative um kind of writers there um and she's written a um it's a nonfiction it's a non-fiction book but sort of written in a quite a fictionalized way um called Heart Sick which is about heartbreak really and it follows people's stories as they recover from you know the the loss of you know relationships that are important to them um which is a really I think interesting um interesting approach to something that we've all experienced and she's she's approached in a really novel way um by using real life cases but also giving it this sort of fictional feel.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah so that's Heartseek by Jesse Stevens which is out soon.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to read that it sounds great.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah it's I really yeah it's really worth looking out for um and then um listening I'm sort of um I'm actually listening to a lot of um to you want to say like like music at the moment without quite specific music without lyrics and the reason I do that is because um I'm sort of thinking about um the new book um that I'll be working on next and I find a good way to do that is kind of listen to sort of quite atmospheric music but um it has to have um no lyrics and no words because otherwise I get a bit distracted by what's being said.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: So things like um I find like movie soundtracks and things or um you know kind of that that sort of thing that have a have a a sort of a bit of a feel to them but and not um not too distracting is kind of the perfect mix for me at the moment.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: And and just can you give us a little hint on what that might be or are you not at that point yet that you can reveal?
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah I'm not being I'm not being coy.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just I'm actually just in really early stages but um so at the moment I've still really very much a thinking stage which involves me trying to you know really determine exactly what setting I'm going to be in and what the plot's going to look like.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I've got a good idea for um is you know I mean it's definitely safe to say it'll be another Australian mystery very similar tone and feel to the other books.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sort of um just sort of nailing down the setting at the moment um in terms of narrowing down to a few places and what time of year it will be as well and things.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah it'll um I think hopefully it'll be you know you know something that if you've enjoyed the other four books you know it will it will very much um be um you know another another one that sort of is is that kind of um tone and feel and hopefully people enjoy that too.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure they will and thank you so much for joining us Jane on the What I've learned podcast.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: Absolute delight to talk to and very informative and we can't wait to see what your next book is all about and uh who knows there may be another film in the works too oh fantastic well thanks so much for having me this is really fun.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: Absolute pleasure thanks Jane Thanks so much for listening the What I've learned podcast will now be coming to you weekly with new episodes released every Tuesday.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show so check out my What I've learned Instagram for updates.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile stay tuned kind and curious loved