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Okja (2017) with Andorks Podcast · Left of the Projector

• 0:00
  Rusteen: Do you do all the editing, Evan?
• 0:01
  evan: I do.
• 0:03
  Rusteen: God bless you.
• 0:04
  ward: Thank God for Evan.
• 0:08
  evan: We only do, like we record video, but we don't really post much video or if
• 0:13
  evan: ever anymore. I mean, maybe at some point in the future we might,
• 0:16
  evan: but it's easier just to edit audio versus doing the video too. So that's easier.
• 0:22
  Rusteen: Alex has decided to make it harder for himself by basically making little mini
• 0:26
  Rusteen: documentaries with each one of our clips.
• 0:30
  Rusteen: instead of just recording video of us talking.
• 0:33
  alex: Nobody wants to see our faces.
• 0:35
  Rusteen: I agree.
• 0:37
  evan: Yeah, I do. I actually like the idea of having, like, there's that,
• 0:40
  evan: you know, your voice, you know,
• 0:41
  evan: the people talking over montage and other things. Those are, I like that.
• 0:45
  alex: They take a little while sometimes when you want to be a little,
• 0:47
  alex: when you're playing Michael Moore clips from 2004 RNC, something's gone too far.
• 0:51
  ward: Which I was doing the other day. So.
• 1:07
  evan: Hello, and welcome to Left of the Projector. I'm your host, Evan,
• 1:10
  evan: back again with another film discussion from the left. If you'd like to support
• 1:14
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• 1:20
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• 1:22
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• 1:27
  evan: you've got the best taste around.
• 1:28
  evan: Wherever you're listening, give us a rating and subscribe so you'll be notified
• 1:31
  evan: of our weekly episodes that drop every Tuesday. And now on to the show.
• 1:36
  evan: This week on Left of the Projector, we'll be tackling a Bong Joon-ho film,
• 1:39
  evan: specifically one that embarrassingly none of the hosts on the show saw until now. Wow.
• 1:44
  evan: So the one in question is Okja, released in 2017.
• 1:49
  evan: It has a lot of big names in here, including Tilla Swinton, Paul Dano,
• 1:54
  evan: Bayeon Hee Bong, Lily Collins, Yoon Jin Moon, Danielle Herschel,
• 1:58
  evan: Giancarlo Esposito, and Jake Gyllenhaal.
• 2:00
  evan: The film was not a box office success, but that's okay. We're here to discuss it anyway.
• 2:05
  evan: Our guests this week are the co-hosts of the podcast Andorks,
• 2:08
  evan: the podcast that breaks down Andor seven minutes at a time, Rustin and Alex.
• 2:13
  evan: Thank you both for being here today.
• 2:15
  alex: Thanks for having us.
• 2:16
  Rusteen: Thanks for having us.
• 2:17
  evan: Of course. And listeners of our show know that we're big Andor fans.
• 2:21
  evan: Obviously, you both are Andor fans. Do you want to tell everyone about where
• 2:24
  evan: they can just get more Andor content? Because we all want that.
• 2:28
  alex: It's called Wookieepedia.com.
• 2:33
  alex: Rusty, do you want to go ahead?
• 2:34
  Rusteen: Yeah. Our show Andorx is all about diving through every single minute of the show Andorx.
• 2:43
  Rusteen: Because like the way it came out, I feel like we all talked about all of the big moments in the show.
• 2:49
  Rusteen: You know, your Gorman massacres, your Dr. Gorse.
• 2:54
  Rusteen: But there's so many smaller moments all throughout the show that really speak
• 2:58
  Rusteen: to this political moment and what we're going through every single day.
• 3:05
  Rusteen: And so our show takes every week we talk about seven minutes of the show and or.
• 3:11
  Rusteen: And you would think that after 50 episodes, we'd be tired of it.
• 3:16
  Rusteen: And yet we're still finding new things to get to talk about.
• 3:19
  Rusteen: So if you enjoyed your guys' coverage of Andor, come over to Andor's. The water's fine.
• 3:26
  evan: That's awesome.
• 3:27
  alex: Yeah, I mean, to paraphrase Nemec on the show, like there are just things constantly
• 3:31
  alex: happening in the real news every week, which is just fun to sort of go through
• 3:34
  alex: what's happening in the news and recontextualize it through what Andor is talking about and how much it
• 3:38
  alex: matches what's happening in the current day or how much it doesn't match and
• 3:41
  alex: sort of view that as a lens through what's happening,
• 3:44
  alex: in the news, which is, you know,
• 3:45
  alex: it makes it separate it from just, you know, let's talk about the show for an hour and a half.
• 3:49
  Rusteen: And the way we've like scheduled it out, we're going to have our final coverage
• 3:54
  Rusteen: of Rogue One drop on inauguration day of 2028.
• 3:59
  alex: Of Trump's third term.
• 4:00
  Rusteen: Yes, it'll either be the last day of Trump's second term or the first day of
• 4:04
  Rusteen: Trump's third term. And so the podcast will hopefully work as a kind of time
• 4:09
  Rusteen: capsule of this horrible moment in American history.
• 4:13
  evan: Yes, that is awesome. And so how did you... So we send our guests a list of films of...
• 4:21
  evan: a wide variety of like genres of movies and you picked a couple,
• 4:25
  evan: but then we, one of them was Okja.
• 4:27
  evan: Why did you choose it? Do you have any, you know, is it something you had,
• 4:31
  evan: you both seen this before? And unlike the three of us, we had never seen it.
• 4:35
  alex: I had seen it before, but this, this was a Rusty and pick. I think we,
• 4:38
  alex: we compiled a list and this was the Rusty and pick on the list.
• 4:40
  Rusteen: Yeah. I am Okja's like number one defender.
• 4:45
  Rusteen: Uh, I, I love Bong Joon-ho's films and I saw this film when,
• 4:51
  Rusteen: it first premiered on netflix you know you because you said it wasn't a box
• 4:55
  Rusteen: office smash but that's because it never got a box office unfortunately yeah.
• 5:00
  evan: Except for in i guess in south korea it got a little bit.
• 5:03
  Rusteen: Yeah and so.
• 5:04
  bill: Yeah like a little bit in south.
• 5:05
  Rusteen: Korea yeah i i mean my first bong joon ho was the host and so i really loved
• 5:10
  Rusteen: that film and then i caught snow piercer and dragged all my friends to the theater to go see it and so,
• 5:19
  Rusteen: as the press for like oakja started rolling up.
• 5:22
  Rusteen: I was fully on board from day one.
• 5:24
  Rusteen: And it's a weird movie.
• 5:27
  Rusteen: It kind of rubs some people the wrong way.
• 5:30
  Rusteen: I think especially when it first came out, people were a little less familiar
• 5:34
  Rusteen: with Korean cinema and Bong Joon-ho's juggling of tones. And so they watched
• 5:41
  Rusteen: this movie where a little girl runs around with her pet pig.
• 5:45
  Rusteen: And then also Jake Gyllenhaal is there like a sniveling little worm
• 5:49
  Rusteen: and they couldn't process what was happening and
• 5:52
  Rusteen: kind of like that simpsons joke of like i bring you love let's break its legs
• 5:57
  Rusteen: like i feel like some people reacted like that to okja and it just made me love
• 6:01
  Rusteen: it even more and so i'm so glad to get to you know force the three of you to watch it.
• 6:07
  alex: Are you talking about the movie disclosure.
• 6:09
  Rusteen: Yes exactly well.
• 6:11
  evan: And it's funny because i i don't want to speak for board and bill but i was
• 6:14
  evan: a big fan i've seen all of the other Bong Joon-ho movies, except I didn't,
• 6:18
  evan: I just, I want to see his first direct Barking Dogs and everybody,
• 6:22
  evan: that's now the only one I haven't seen.
• 6:24
  evan: And I'm always a huge fan. I saw Snowpiercer also. That was my first,
• 6:29
  evan: you know, and then I feel like people didn't even know about that when it came
• 6:31
  evan: out. And then Parasite came out, wins the Oscar.
• 6:34
  evan: All of a sudden, people are like, oh, you know, this guy, this guy can make good films.
• 6:38
  evan: And yeah, I was pleasantly surprised. And I cried my eyes out when I watched this movie.
• 6:45
  Rusteen: It's a real tearjerker. I got to go to a screening of it at the Academy Museum here in L.A.
• 6:51
  Rusteen: with Director Bong there. And just hearing the entire audience breaking out
• 6:57
  Rusteen: into sobs at the end of the movie made me really sad that this never got a real theatrical release.
• 7:04
  evan: What did you guys think, Bill Ward, of this for your first, as first viewers of it?
• 7:09
  ward: So, I mean, like, I never had a reason not to watch it, which is,
• 7:13
  ward: like, I don't have a valid reason that I never watched it. Like,
• 7:17
  ward: I'm a big Bong Joon-ho fan, like, seen almost every movie, seen several of them several times each.
• 7:24
  ward: But yeah, just never watched this, and I loved it. And yeah,
• 7:27
  ward: no, I didn't expect the pig movie to make me cry.
• 7:32
  bill: Yeah the same pretty much like the same it's like ward it's like i love baiji
• 7:37
  bill: and ho films like i seen you know almost all of them and i've seen several of them multiple times,
• 7:42
  bill: um and i just like never i don't know why i honestly all right honestly i think
• 7:50
  bill: it's because when it was a netflix release and it's just like it just like shows,
• 7:55
  bill: this is a this is a conversation to be had about not even from a leftist perspective but about media,
• 8:04
  bill: um in general and how like and movies and how like when things are released
• 8:11
  bill: on streaming services as um,
• 8:13
  bill: movies releases they don't feel the same and it doesn't have the same impact uh,
• 8:21
  bill: you know listen i don't want to give nicole kidman too much credit for her amc,
• 8:26
  bill: theater opening bullshit but you know uh,
• 8:29
  bill: i mean i think she's right to a certain degree or at least whoever wrote that
• 8:32
  bill: fucking spiel for amc theaters is correct and how dare you it's just kind of like
• 8:38
  bill: you know it just kind of like showed up on netflix and it's like oh yeah i mean
• 8:41
  bill: like if this is in the movie like i you know i'm like yeah it's it's it's sponsored
• 8:45
  bill: oh like oh yeah you know but it's like oh you just kind of put it on netflix
• 8:48
  bill: okay you know it's just like,
• 8:51
  bill: um i will admit i did not cry and i'm starting to feel like i might be a monster,
• 8:57
  bill: i i also did not cry on my rewatch.
• 9:01
  alex: You're not alone.
• 9:03
  bill: And i'd cry i cry at movies and like i honestly i think it's because evan evan
• 9:10
  bill: led me to believe that okay And spoilers, okay, for everyone out there,
• 9:15
  bill: Evan led me to believe from what he said that Oksha dies.
• 9:19
  evan: I did not.
• 9:20
  bill: Yes, you did. You said, this movie destroyed me, okay? I believe that is the phrase you used.
• 9:26
  alex: I need to be first. The Oksha in real life died.
• 9:31
  alex: But the story that says based off of it did die in real life.
• 9:35
  bill: I'm just like, I was expecting Jeff, and it didn't happen. And then,
• 9:38
  bill: you know, so I didn't cry.
• 9:40
  evan: It's okay.
• 9:41
  Rusteen: But, you know, there's ways to make you cry beyond death, right?
• 9:45
  Rusteen: It's all about Miha and Okja's connection, you know, and the way that the rest
• 9:50
  Rusteen: of the world doesn't see it. They don't believe in it.
• 9:53
  bill: To be fair, I did cry after the movie, but it was completely unrelated to the movie.
• 9:59
  bill: It was personal life things. It just kind of happened.
• 10:03
  ward: Oh, I thought you'd cry because Paul Dano got out of prison at the end.
• 10:06
  alex: Look at the real Jerry Adams-ish as he walked out of that prison. Yes.
• 10:12
  alex: But Paul Dano, famously.
• 10:13
  bill: According to Quentin Tarantino, a terrible actor.
• 10:17
  ward: I will say Paul Dano in a spy role, like trying to do spy antics at times is really funny.
• 10:23
  ward: Like seeing him change like outfits. It's like, dude, you're still Paul Dano.
• 10:28
  Rusteen: But he also looks like a little soft vegan, you know, like he is cosplaying as a secret agent.
• 10:35
  bill: What were you going to say? Rusty, what were you going to say?
• 10:38
  Rusteen: Alex was talking to you.
• 10:39
  alex: I was to say if I think to your point of this, this being a Netflix movie is
• 10:42
  alex: I think like 10 years ago, this movie feels already encased in amber politics
• 10:47
  alex: wise of like, this is a very distinct moment that is not the moment we're in anymore.
• 10:51
  alex: And I think like in 2017, Netflix releasing a movie like this was a big deal.
• 10:55
  alex: As opposed to now, I think I did this even get like the Lemley run, Racine, I doubt it.
• 10:59
  Rusteen: No.
• 11:00
  alex: Yeah, like now.
• 11:01
  Rusteen: It got a new Beverly run where they got like the 35 millimeter print, but that was it.
• 11:06
  alex: Yeah, and I think now this movie would have gotten a little bit more beef,
• 11:08
  alex: a little bit more beefier presence, because they would go, okay,
• 11:12
  alex: we're going to do the little New York, LA two-week run where people can go see
• 11:15
  alex: the movie and talk about it.
• 11:16
  bill: Totally.
• 11:18
  alex: Netflix has evolved since that last decade.
• 11:20
  evan: Yeah, like with Frankenstein, where they released in a bunch of limited theater
• 11:24
  evan: run, and then it's giving it press.
• 11:27
  bill: Absolutely. I think this movie genuinely didn't get the acknowledgement it deserves,
• 11:33
  bill: like 100%. And it's possible that is somewhat rooted in the fact that it's a
• 11:37
  bill: South Korean director. It's very possible that race is...
• 11:42
  bill: A factor in that. Why just, you know, got put on Netflix instead of like getting,
• 11:48
  bill: like a real run anywhere or even like a like a prestige run.
• 11:51
  Rusteen: I think it's also a movie that if you don't know how to react to it,
• 11:57
  Rusteen: it can kind of catch you off guard.
• 11:59
  Rusteen: Right. Like it starts off and it's very serene.
• 12:03
  Rusteen: And then you go into Miranda world and everybody becomes cartoon characters.
• 12:10
  Rusteen: and if you are not prepared for that and you're watching that at home you're
• 12:15
  Rusteen: just like why does tilda swinton have braces.
• 12:18
  bill: Why is jake gyllenhaal.
• 12:20
  Rusteen: Doing all of that and.
• 12:24
  bill: We are not criticizing the audience at this regarding this though we are criticizing the studio
• 12:30
  bill: and anybody at netflix that was behind the decision of like this like that's
• 12:34
  bill: who we're criticizing and if you totally If you put Tilda Swinton in a movie,
• 12:38
  bill: like, come on, like you, to be honest, I said like three quarters of the way
• 12:42
  bill: through, I was like, how did they make Tilda Swinton?
• 12:44
  bill: She looked like, she looked and sounded like Parker Posey to me.
• 12:47
  bill: I was like, I have the exact same note.
• 12:49
  bill: Thank you. I'm glad I'm not the only one. Okay.
• 12:51
  alex: Yes.
• 12:52
  bill: I'm like, what was the decision to make her Parker Posey?
• 12:56
  alex: It's the braces scene from Best in Show. That's what she sounds like. Yes.
• 13:02
  bill: It's wild. And then Jake Gyllenhaal.
• 13:05
  evan: That is the, yeah.
• 13:05
  bill: That's it. And his affectation, which is next level wild.
• 13:10
  alex: I mean, it's wild if you watch any clip of Korean television and you go,
• 13:14
  alex: oh, this is actually subdued compared to Korean television.
• 13:16
  Rusteen: Exactly.
• 13:17
  bill: And there were no strange sound effects. As somebody, my wife and I watch a
• 13:22
  bill: fair amount of, like, Korean, like, South Korean, like, soaps and stuff like that.
• 13:28
  bill: And lots of, like, you know, silly sound effects that go along with them for
• 13:31
  bill: some reason. I'm like, why do you do that?
• 13:34
  Rusteen: Bong's English films got a bad rap where people would say he doesn't have as
• 13:40
  Rusteen: firm a hand on his English actors as he does the Korean ones.
• 13:44
  Rusteen: But when you watch Parasite, that guy in the basement is just as crazy as Jake
• 13:50
  Rusteen: Gyllenhaal is in this movie.
• 13:52
  Rusteen: When you finally watch Barking Dogs Never Bite, you'll see that from the beginning,
• 13:57
  Rusteen: he was having people going Looney Tunes mode.
• 14:00
  Rusteen: song king ho is drop kicking people throughout memories of murder which is like
• 14:04
  Rusteen: his most serious movie you know.
• 14:06
  bill: Like they're.
• 14:07
  Rusteen: All cartoon characters.
• 14:08
  bill: But gillenhall like it works though like it works as the kind of like the way
• 14:14
  bill: these people i mean gillenhall came off as like a,
• 14:18
  bill: sinister kratz brother like that's how he came off and it's like perfect like
• 14:22
  bill: that's that's american media like That's not,
• 14:27
  bill: out of left field for American media at all.
• 14:30
  evan: Yeah, and maybe just as context for anyone who hasn't seen this movie or has—we
• 14:35
  evan: already spoiled it, but hasn't seen it in a long time.
• 14:38
  evan: As we said, so Tillis Wynn plays the CEO or becomes the CEO of the Miranda Corporation,
• 14:44
  evan: where apparently her twin sister was the previous CEO and their father was this—they,
• 14:50
  evan: have very terrible things to say about him.
• 14:52
  evan: and they're breeding a special kind of super pig, but they definitely make it
• 14:56
  evan: off and their way that they release it to the press is it's very much like this...
• 15:00
  evan: this special pig that they found, and now they, you know, they bred it,
• 15:04
  evan: and now they have 26 specimens they're sending around the world.
• 15:07
  evan: And in 10 years, they'll see which one is the best, the super pig.
• 15:11
  evan: And that will sort of lead to the, you know, the rest of the movie takes place
• 15:15
  evan: the 10 years later, where a teenage girl in the South Korean mountains is now
• 15:19
  evan: basically her best friend is Okja, this giant super pig. And, you know.
• 15:26
  evan: Their relationship is very lovely, and maybe that part turned people off after
• 15:31
  evan: the opening scene. I don't know.
• 15:33
  evan: They just kind of weren't expecting
• 15:34
  evan: it. They're expecting it to kind of stay in this very weird area.
• 15:38
  evan: And the real kickoff of this is when Johnny Wilcox, who's played by Jake Gyllenhaal,
• 15:43
  evan: this crazy doctor, comes and essentially takes Okja away because it's going
• 15:48
  evan: to now be this announcement and this parade and this whole thing,
• 15:52
  evan: in new york city and,
• 15:54
  evan: really everything goes from there and i know the opening scene is pretty wacky
• 16:00
  evan: and i had some some notes about it and,
• 16:04
  evan: i don't know what you thought about and we kind of briefly talked about tillis when as the,
• 16:08
  evan: ceo but just like the way that she presents herself as being an environmentalist
• 16:14
  evan: and yet she is the ceo of this supposed evil corporation and it's just uh Like
• 16:20
  evan: you're immediately told,
• 16:23
  evan: you know, oh, this is like rainbow capitalism.
• 16:25
  evan: Like this is this company that actually like, you know, does it the good way or something like that.
• 16:29
  alex: It's a company that is. I want to quote the opening line, which is,
• 16:33
  alex: we know these walls are stained with the blood of fine working men.
• 16:37
  alex: But today I reclaim this place to tell you a beautiful story and our new core
• 16:40
  alex: values. Which I think is.
• 16:43
  bill: From a company that is definitely not.
• 16:46
  bill: Definitely not Monsanto at all. This is not Monsanto.
• 16:50
  alex: She's playing the cartoon version of her character from Michael Clayton.
• 16:53
  alex: It's the same character.
• 16:54
  evan: It's just in a different. It honestly is.
• 16:56
  alex: Yeah.
• 16:57
  Rusteen: Yeah. Like, it's all about marketing to her.
• 17:00
  Rusteen: Like, this movie really reminds me of, like, Upton Sinclair's The Jungle in
• 17:06
  Rusteen: the, like, that turned everybody, like, into vegetarians.
• 17:10
  Rusteen: But it's actually about capitalism. And Okja kind of does the same thing where
• 17:14
  Rusteen: everyone just sees don't eat meat. And the actual message is these corporations
• 17:19
  Rusteen: are evil and will put a price on all our heads if we allow them to.
• 17:25
  bill: And the fact that these corporations, every time these kinds of things come
• 17:30
  bill: out like the jungle, like,
• 17:33
  bill: we in like liberal, like democracy and Western society, we release these things much like ALF in this.
• 17:41
  bill: We, you know, people release these things that have the good intentions and
• 17:44
  bill: like, this will change stuff. And it's like, all that happens is the corporations
• 17:48
  bill: take that and go, okay, we have to learn from this. What do we do? Okay. We shift.
• 17:53
  bill: Now we have to do this marketing better. That's all that happens.
• 17:56
  bill: If you don't change the system, all that happens is that.
• 17:59
  alex: Yeah, I was doing some research, and there's a quote that Upton Sinclair wrote
• 18:02
  alex: after the reception to his book, and it was, quote, I aimed at the public's
• 18:06
  alex: heart, and by accident, I hit them in the stomach.
• 18:09
  evan: Well, she also says in her little speech, she talks about how her pitch to the
• 18:14
  evan: people is, you know, there's 7 billion people, there's 800 million people who
• 18:19
  evan: don't have, you know, struggled hunger, including 30 million in America.
• 18:22
  evan: And then she's saying, oh, where the world is running out of food.
• 18:25
  evan: And what she's not saying is that none of this is actually, I mean,
• 18:28
  evan: there are this many people that are hungry and they go to bed hungry without,
• 18:32
  evan: you know, at least one meal per day.
• 18:35
  evan: But they're not running out of food. It's that corporations like this are commodified
• 18:38
  evan: into the point where people can't purchase the food. There's plenty of food.
• 18:42
  evan: There's no this like population myth is such a, you know, CEO marketing nonsense.
• 18:49
  Rusteen: Yeah. Like Mija lives in the mountains with her grandpa.
• 18:53
  Rusteen: She's eating fine. Right. Like the food is out there for people.
• 18:58
  Rusteen: It's just that these corporations have put a high price on anything that's actually healthy for you.
• 19:04
  Rusteen: And and later in the movie, her her evil sister says, you know,
• 19:10
  Rusteen: as long as it's cheap, people are going to fucking eat it. Like,
• 19:12
  Rusteen: that's all that that matters at the end of the day is just the profit.
• 19:18
  alex: I mean, the movie starts, I think it's very important he does this thematically,
• 19:21
  alex: is that the movie is not arguing, you know, explicitly for vegetarianism or veganism.
• 19:24
  alex: The movie starts with her catching fish and having chicken. But it's the point
• 19:28
  alex: is that they are animals that they raise and she like finds a small fish and
• 19:31
  alex: throws it back. So the movie is not just saying, you know, eating meat is evil.
• 19:34
  alex: It's saying, you know, there's ethical ways of doing this. We're just going
• 19:37
  alex: to show you the unethical way.
• 19:38
  evan: I saw there were some quotes by the person who helped write the script that
• 19:43
  evan: they weren't intending it to be this pro-vegetarian kind of film.
• 19:48
  evan: I think it was at John Ronson.
• 19:52
  evan: I could easily see people watching this and getting that message,
• 19:55
  evan: but I think the subtext is exactly what you said, is that there is an ethical
• 20:01
  evan: way to do these things, but they are choosing violence.
• 20:05
  alex: I don't know if you guys found the Bong Joon-ho quote about his own experience,
• 20:09
  alex: but he basically, after the movie, they went to an actual slaughterhouse.
• 20:13
  alex: And he goes like, after the slaughterhouse, I decided to become a vegan.
• 20:16
  alex: And then, quote, I flew back to South Korea.
• 20:18
  alex: And, you know, South Korea is a barbecue paradise.
• 20:20
  alex: Every street on every corner is burning meat. So I slowly, slowly came back to being a meat eater.
• 20:25
  alex: But now I'm gradually becoming a pescatarian. That was a, so he's trying.
• 20:29
  alex: But yeah, even him. I can't take note to Korean barbecue.
• 20:33
  ward: Yeah, turning vegan here, but then going back to Korea and having to deal with
• 20:36
  ward: beef bulgogi cooked on the corner, like, good luck.
• 20:40
  bill: Good luck, yeah.
• 20:42
  Rusteen: It's like getting exposed to the pure horror of the slaughterhouse just repulses
• 20:50
  Rusteen: you on like an instinctual level.
• 20:53
  Rusteen: But the thing about capitalism is that like we all have to participate in it,
• 20:57
  Rusteen: right? And eventually like we all got to eat and that you're going to smell the bulgogi again.
• 21:02
  Rusteen: And, and just like Bong's got to make movies, we got to eat.
• 21:06
  Rusteen: And we know, we all know that, uh, you know, that, that hot dog is coming from
• 21:11
  Rusteen: the Okja factory, but we need to eat something.
• 21:15
  bill: This like, okay. Is anybody here a vegan? I know Warden Evan Hart, but I. No.
• 21:23
  alex: I thought about it for a week after seeing The Shape Detective. I will explain that.
• 21:28
  bill: Okay. I am,
• 21:32
  bill: kind of notorious for my issues with veganism.
• 21:37
  bill: And this movie really, honestly, like, I know a lot of people would watch this
• 21:42
  bill: movie like, oh, this is going to challenge Bill's views on veganism.
• 21:46
  bill: And no, actually this movie reaffirmed everything that I ever thought
• 21:50
  bill: because, and I, because I don't think this subtext is that subtle because he
• 21:54
  bill: makes a very explicit point to point out one of the ALF members, uh, silver.
• 22:02
  Rusteen: Yeah.
• 22:03
  bill: It's, it's, or blonde. It's silver or black camera.
• 22:06
  Rusteen: Which it's silver. Yeah.
• 22:07
  bill: It's silver. Okay. silver who will not even eat vegetables and like is like basically ill,
• 22:14
  bill: and like it is explicitly pointed out the absurdity of his position and how
• 22:21
  bill: it is in and of itself and what,
• 22:24
  bill: i can go at length as to why i think that veganism is a fundamentally flawed
• 22:29
  bill: ideology based on human centrism and everything beyond that but like,
• 22:36
  bill: The movie explicitly calls out the foolishness of this kind of like hard line,
• 22:42
  bill: like separation and how the problem is not what you eat.
• 22:46
  bill: It is about the system that provides the food, quote unquote,
• 22:50
  bill: provides the food, but really hoards the food.
• 22:53
  bill: It is about the system and not what you eat and how you eat is the system that is the problem.
• 23:00
  alex: It reminded me of the episode The Simpsons where Lisa is dating the environmentalist
• 23:04
  alex: and he's like, I'm a level five vegan. I don't eat anything that casts a shadow that's what that.
• 23:10
  bill: I swear to God I'm surrounded by Simpson people.
• 23:14
  Rusteen: A Simpsons fan speaking a podcast yeah Bill's not a Simpsons.
• 23:18
  bill: Person but I'm not I'm just I'm lost I don't know what's going on with these
• 23:23
  bill: quotes about Simpsons and I'm just like.
• 23:26
  ward: We're having a great time around him yeah please continue Alex don't.
• 23:31
  bill: Don't stop him on.
• 23:32
  alex: Bill's it was just that one joke that was it that was all we'll.
• 23:35
  bill: Keep quoting.
• 23:36
  Rusteen: Simpsons and not eating cheese just.
• 23:41
  bill: It's just it's so like i like i really do think i think at one point someone
• 23:46
  bill: the script you know either bong chun ho this someone was like shit we're we
• 23:50
  bill: might be promoting veganism too hard i think we need to throw in a segment,
• 23:55
  bill: a sequence where like we make it a point like oh no no no let's not let's not get twisted on this okay.
• 24:01
  alex: And i mean i think he literally says uh we make a movement strong.
• 24:05
  bill: Yeah yeah.
• 24:09
  Rusteen: Yeah, that's what but that's like the beautiful thing about Bong's films, right?
• 24:14
  Rusteen: Like everybody in them is is a shade of gray, right?
• 24:19
  Rusteen: Or they are a buffoon. Like there's very few pure heroes in his filmography.
• 24:26
  Rusteen: And Miha is probably the closest to that.
• 24:29
  bill: Yeah, Misha is definitely the closest.
• 24:32
  Rusteen: But even her, like, you know, she will just literally run head first into a
• 24:37
  Rusteen: wall to try to save Okja. Like, she's not infallible.
• 24:42
  evan: I mean, I think, I mean, that's a good point. I think about other films he has.
• 24:46
  evan: I think of, like, the sort of the protagonist, like, in the host, Gangdu.
• 24:51
  evan: Like, he's like, you know, maybe I can cut this because it's a spoiler.
• 24:55
  evan: like he becomes the the hero but at the same time he's like a terrible father
• 25:00
  evan: who you know is falling asleep and you know not particularly uh,
• 25:05
  evan: good but he you know the he like he he does a really good job at creating these
• 25:09
  evan: multi-faceted interesting characters and i don't know but do you think that
• 25:14
  evan: any other than miha i mean is anyone really,
• 25:17
  evan: even some of the people in the alf like are they would you consider them to
• 25:20
  evan: be i hate the word good because that's such a you know a loaded term.
• 25:23
  ward: The the truck driver,
• 25:26
  ward: The truck driver's awesome. Oh, yeah. Are you kidding me?
• 25:28
  bill: The truck driver's great.
• 25:29
  ward: The truck driver's so great. The truck driver's so great.
• 25:31
  Rusteen: The truck driver's so great.
• 25:32
  bill: And he shows up at the end. I was, I loved that. When he showed up at the end,
• 25:35
  bill: I was like, awesome. I love that guy.
• 25:38
  Rusteen: And Bong brought him back for Parasite, too. So it's a fun little cameo, yeah.
• 25:43
  evan: Yeah, that's true. Well, I mean, the, like, the second, I don't call it the
• 25:47
  evan: second act, but sort of the, once you're introduced to,
• 25:50
  evan: like, this corporation and they take you to Miha in the mountains,
• 25:54
  evan: We have, as I mentioned, the bizarre specimen that is Jake Gyllenhaal's character
• 25:59
  evan: in this, Dr. Johnny Wilcox.
• 26:02
  evan: I could not stop laughing. And I was trying to think of like,
• 26:05
  evan: it seemed like he was doing an impression of someone from something,
• 26:09
  evan: but I couldn't figure out.
• 26:10
  evan: does anyone like what do you make of uh i mean we learn later he's like genuinely
• 26:15
  evan: not a good person and i feel like it was probably uh implicit at the beginning
• 26:19
  evan: but it's very explicit later that he is um terrible very it was kind.
• 26:24
  Rusteen: Of like uh what if jim carrey played steve irwin.
• 26:28
  evan: Was kind of.
• 26:29
  Rusteen: The vibe i got from jake jill and i definitely.
• 26:32
  evan: Got ace ventura.
• 26:33
  bill: Vibes yeah i got ace ventura vibes definitely.
• 26:35
  evan: In but in the second movie though when nature calls yeah he's.
• 26:39
  ward: Ventura's got bills to pay.
• 26:43
  Rusteen: I mean, what if Ace Ventura became the star of a Monsanto ad is like absolutely
• 26:49
  Rusteen: a thing that could happen in real life, you know?
• 26:52
  Rusteen: So, so Bong is just seeing the future.
• 26:54
  evan: Yeah, that's true. I find the whole part when they finally reach the top of the mountain where,
• 27:03
  evan: the grandfather and Miha are just dropping around all the time like they're
• 27:07
  evan: used to it, but they're these American guy who just can't even climb up the
• 27:11
  evan: mountain and he's supposed to be this outdoorsy guy. I thought it's a great bit.
• 27:15
  Rusteen: And along for the ride is like Miranda, her assistant, who is played by Shirley
• 27:23
  Rusteen: Henderson, a.k.a. Babu Frick.
• 27:24
  alex: There it is. Babu.
• 27:26
  Rusteen: Hey, hey.
• 27:26
  bill: That's who that is.
• 27:28
  Rusteen: That's Babu Frick, baby.
• 27:30
  bill: I recognized her. It took me a while, but I was like, not to,
• 27:33
  bill: I mean, I hate to speak her name, but I was like, oh, that's the one from,
• 27:40
  bill: I was like, it's the ghost in the bathroom. I'm like, it's the ghost in the bathroom.
• 27:45
  Rusteen: Well, now you can call her Babu Frick. It's okay.
• 27:49
  evan: All right. So that's the Star Wars connection.
• 27:52
  alex: And Giancarlo Stanton. Not Giancarlo Stanton. Fucking Giancarlo Esposito.
• 27:55
  alex: I have Yankees on the brain. Sorry.
• 27:56
  bill: Yes.
• 27:59
  alex: You know, it's also in the Star Wars world.
• 28:02
  evan: Right, right. Yeah. And the Mandalorian, right? Yes.
• 28:06
  alex: He's working on his like little subway card to get in every franchise and when
• 28:09
  alex: he gets to a hundred percent. Yeah.
• 28:12
  alex: Sigourney just got hers. He's up next. Yeah.
• 28:17
  evan: Oh, I do like that. I did not realize that that was that was Shirley Henderson.
• 28:23
  evan: I mean, I looked in the thing and I just like didn't put those.
• 28:25
  alex: Do we want to talk about them recreating the Bin Laden photo?
• 28:28
  evan: Oh, yes.
• 28:29
  alex: Did all of you notice this?
• 28:30
  ward: No.
• 28:31
  alex: Oh, when they're watching the footage of what's happening in South Korea,
• 28:34
  alex: it is a one-for-one recreation of the White House photo of them learning about
• 28:39
  alex: that they killed Bin Laden. I have it up on my phone.
• 28:42
  Rusteen: Down to Giancarlo as Obama.
• 28:46
  alex: Yeah.
• 28:47
  Rusteen: Tilda Swinton is Hillary Clinton.
• 28:49
  ward: Oh, jeez.
• 28:50
  Rusteen: I didn't even catch that at all. The best part of it is Jake Gyllenhaal as Joe Biden.
• 28:56
  alex: Yeah.
• 28:56
  Rusteen: I can't even say that.
• 29:00
  evan: Hilarious that is uh i didn't catch.
• 29:03
  ward: That at all.
• 29:04
  bill: No that's amazing.
• 29:06
  evan: That does seem like something that like bondron would would like pull out to uh oh for.
• 29:12
  Rusteen: Sure like like drawing the line between the white house and corporate america
• 29:17
  Rusteen: right like the only difference in that photo is the chairs that they're sitting in
• 29:22
  Rusteen: like that's the only difference is that they're those shitty like plastic chairs
• 29:27
  Rusteen: instead of old timey, uh, cushiony ones.
• 29:31
  evan: That's it yeah the like the entire i mean it's,
• 29:34
  evan: like the corporate i mean i feel like there's like two sides there's like the
• 29:38
  evan: whole side of the the corporation the mirando corporation and all the things they're doing
• 29:42
  evan: but then there's also the you know you have the alf that's sort of fighting
• 29:45
  evan: against them and trying to take them down and we have like the like one of the
• 29:50
  evan: funniest scenes i think too is when they're taking ocho away you have the truck driver you mentioned
• 29:54
  evan: what is the truck driver's name again uh i can't think of what his name was.
• 29:58
  ward: I don't know that's why i called him the truck driver.
• 30:00
  evan: Man yeah maybe he does maybe they don't give a name but like they have the the
• 30:03
  evan: like the chase scene and then the like oak just going through like the underground
• 30:07
  evan: mall and the the the trains they i guess it's a sub like the train station.
• 30:11
  Rusteen: Yeah they're down in like the underground malls that are like connected to the subway.
• 30:15
  evan: Stations before.
• 30:18
  alex: That we get the the scene where it's like the company representative is driving
• 30:21
  alex: with the driver and he asked him if he has like a license and he goes i do.
• 30:25
  evan: Have a license.
• 30:25
  alex: I don't have workman's comp.
• 30:27
  evan: And then as the worker runs away.
• 30:29
  alex: The business guy goes well i want to show you what actual company culture looks
• 30:32
  alex: like and then gets hit in the head with a door just yeah subtle yeah and pooped on yes.
• 30:38
  evan: Yeah just rained on poop on like doesn't he then call his wife and ask her like oh do we have the uh.
• 30:44
  bill: What body lotion do we.
• 30:45
  evan: Have or what.
• 30:46
  bill: Body wash do we have.
• 30:47
  evan: Yeah yeah i mean they like there's such um i mean you wouldn't necessarily at all call this
• 30:53
  evan: a comedy but in the same way that i think that his most recent film like mickey
• 30:58
  evan: 17 is a sci-fi film or sort of this
• 31:01
  evan: i don't wouldn't really call this a sci-fi film i think it's called a sci-fi
• 31:06
  evan: action film in wikipedia i don't know if i go with that genre i would definitely.
• 31:10
  alex: Say it's a comedy.
• 31:10
  evan: Yeah i think that's what i yeah to me it's much more of a comedy than anything
• 31:14
  evan: and the comedic moments in mickey 17 is i don't think necessarily what people
• 31:19
  evan: were expecting perhaps and maybe let's it's also not doing is actually that
• 31:24
  evan: made it to the box office i don't think.
• 31:25
  alex: There's any way you could sell mickey 17 in which it was a box office success
• 31:27
  alex: i think they did the best they could with uh robert pattinson doing like a steve
• 31:31
  alex: ushami impression for half the movie.
• 31:35
  Rusteen: Which is incredible uh yeah the special effects work in both films i think is
• 31:41
  Rusteen: probably why like okja is getting
• 31:43
  Rusteen: classified as like science fiction just because of how well realized
• 31:48
  Rusteen: okja is as this like alternate being.
• 31:50
  bill: I mean yeah i mean it is fundamentally it has a sign as a.
• 31:55
  ward: Yeah if it relies on fictional science as part of a part of the plot it's science
• 32:01
  ward: fiction yeah so this is technically science fiction.
• 32:04
  Rusteen: It's taking like i wouldn't be.
• 32:06
  ward: Like explaining it to somebody like oh.
• 32:08
  Rusteen: Yeah it's a sci-fi film yeah about taking the science of like gmo foods right
• 32:13
  Rusteen: and just like extrapolating it out of like what if et was a genetically modified
• 32:20
  Rusteen: pig i think and he was delicious.
• 32:23
  bill: I i think the i think in terms of like genre i think the fact that matters is that We have been,
• 32:30
  bill: like, society as a whole, like, you know, has been conditioned to think of sci-fi
• 32:36
  bill: as something that is overwhelmingly sci-fi and, like, you know,
• 32:44
  bill: set in space, you know, involving space travel or, like, everything about it
• 32:51
  bill: is rooted in, you know, like, Blade Runner.
• 32:55
  bill: Blade Runner is sci-fi despite the fact that Blade Runner takes place in a you
• 32:58
  bill: know on on earth you know and you don't you know you never meet an alien you don't know that shit,
• 33:04
  bill: but it is overwhelmingly concerned with and I think the with the the science
• 33:10
  bill: fiction aspect of like you know the replicants,
• 33:13
  bill: and I think that this movie doesn't to a lot of people doesn't feel sci-fi but
• 33:19
  bill: in reality like it is very much sci-fi and has the core,
• 33:24
  bill: philosophy of sci-fi in which we take science,
• 33:29
  bill: extrapolate out and then learn something about our present condition by using
• 33:36
  bill: science and science fiction aspects and like.
• 33:41
  bill: Fantastical science and speculative science to to reflect on our current conditions
• 33:47
  bill: this is very much science fiction it's just that we
• 33:51
  bill: have been led like we have largely been led to it's like it's not sci-fi unless
• 33:55
  bill: it's a space and yeah it's just not,
• 33:58
  bill: what science fiction is. That's just not what it is.
• 34:02
  evan: Yeah, that's a good point.
• 34:06
  evan: Yeah, the I had a I had like a note that I would mentioned after they.
• 34:12
  evan: Oh, well, I do love the when they're in like the underground mall and the like
• 34:15
  evan: the police or the security is shooting like the I guess their darts to put the
• 34:21
  evan: the pig to sleep or to sleep and they rip out those umbrellas to deflect them. I love that.
• 34:27
  bill: It was beautiful.
• 34:30
  Rusteen: Yeah, it's a great scene. It's a great little like fantastical flourish.
• 34:35
  Rusteen: Like they show up with the umbrellas just in time and they get to be like nonviolent
• 34:40
  Rusteen: heroes. Right. In that moment.
• 34:42
  bill: Well, that's the thing that they bring up a lot.
• 34:45
  evan: I was about to say that it's like, they constantly say that,
• 34:47
  evan: you know, especially Paul Dano says numerous times, they don't believe in violence.
• 34:51
  evan: And then when he has to do something that's like mildly violent,
• 34:54
  evan: he sort of has to not apologize, but then reiterate, like I'm only doing this
• 34:57
  evan: because it's part of this plan we have. And, you know, that's what we have to do.
• 35:02
  alex: So in preface episode, I wanted to do, we talked a little bit about veganism
• 35:06
  alex: but i found a really good article it's called uh,
• 35:10
  alex: bear with me if there's some people who don't like veganism but it's uh how
• 35:13
  alex: animals ourselves the socialist feminist case for animal liberation and it's
• 35:16
  alex: not what you think it is it's actually a really good article uh it's by astra
• 35:19
  alex: taylor who's a really great writer uh and sonora taylor,
• 35:23
  alex: um and it sort of it starts with talking about like the perception of create
• 35:27
  alex: of cringe veganism of how annoying vegans can be and that when you see other
• 35:31
  alex: vegans being that level of performative of it's sort of like,
• 35:35
  alex: you get terrified because like oh they're gonna make us look obnoxious we have
• 35:37
  alex: to be very normal it's very cool you can't be seen as cringe and it sort of
• 35:40
  alex: it gets into a lot of the themes of the movie of we can't just reduce the fact
• 35:44
  alex: of animals being this is a this is an issue of i mean the movie makes a very
• 35:48
  alex: good point of like women's bodies being abused and how,
• 35:50
  alex: bodies are just turned into capital it's not just about eating people are not
• 35:54
  alex: eating animals it's about all these things they reduce the capital so i recommend i recommend,
• 35:58
  alex: anyone listening who wants to go a deep dive on it but yeah it's it's sort of
• 36:02
  alex: this public perception of veganism is as much as a fight as the the battle itself
• 36:06
  alex: of if you say the wrong thing suddenly people are just gonna give up on this entire idea and,
• 36:11
  alex: there's a very like there's a very uh what's the right word but uh everyone's
• 36:13
  alex: very delicate about their politics in real life and both in the movie.
• 36:16
  Rusteen: And it's worth saying that the alf is like a real organization although all
• 36:21
  Rusteen: the characters in here are fictional and i was watching some of like the behind
• 36:25
  Rusteen: the scenes um doc stuff on the criterion release of the film and,
• 36:31
  Rusteen: bong talks about how his cousin is an animal rights activist and like took him
• 36:37
  Rusteen: to dc to go meet with a lot of the people who would not confirm or deny whether
• 36:43
  Rusteen: whether or not they were actual alf members,
• 36:46
  Rusteen: so he's like pulling from real experiences with these characters as cartoonish as they might be.
• 36:54
  evan: And you still get the what's i think probably accurate is you also have the
• 36:58
  evan: conflict within the members of alf like specifically like the stephen yuen character as k,
• 37:04
  evan: who they kick out of the group because he,
• 37:09
  evan: lied to them by translating what mihat said as like oh yeah you can use okja
• 37:13
  evan: as part of this plan to expose the miranda corporation when she didn't say that at all and it's,
• 37:20
  evan: You know, it is definitely a betrayal of what, you know, she wanted,
• 37:25
  evan: but they sort of had this greater plan. And the question is,
• 37:29
  evan: would Paul Dano have gone ahead with it if she had, if he had said, the girl had said no?
• 37:34
  alex: I mean, I want to put out that literally the first lines that the,
• 37:38
  alex: they say when they jump out of the truck in their first scene is the first words
• 37:41
  alex: they scream is no compromise.
• 37:43
  alex: Like that's how they start with no compromise. So I think, honestly,
• 37:46
  alex: I think Paul Dano character would have stopped there. I think he that is his
• 37:49
  alex: character does not compromise.
• 37:50
  ward: 100% no he's he's very much a hardliner immediately beats the shit as Stephen Wynn like fucking.
• 37:57
  alex: You have you have.
• 37:58
  ward: Betrayed the code doesn't hold doesn't hold back immediately beats the fuck
• 38:01
  ward: out of him yeah yeah yeah get the fuck out and we're keeping your shit,
• 38:08
  ward: we're keeping this yeah and the driver just keeps saying it's not.
• 38:12
  Rusteen: My truck it's the company's truck I don't give a.
• 38:14
  ward: Fuck yeah exactly.
• 38:17
  bill: I think I think,
• 38:18
  bill: I'm sorry. Go on, Rusty.
• 38:20
  Rusteen: I was just going to say, I love Jay's little trolley problem that he gives to Mija, right?
• 38:26
  Rusteen: We can either let you go with Okja, or we can use Okja to save all of the super pigs.
• 38:35
  Rusteen: And Mija doesn't think about it for a second, right? She immediately says that
• 38:40
  Rusteen: she wants to take Okja back to the mountains.
• 38:44
  alex: And that's ultimately how the movie ends.
• 38:46
  bill: Yeah.
• 38:46
  alex: The rest of the movie didn't matter.
• 38:48
  bill: They ended.
• 38:48
  alex: Up in the same place.
• 38:49
  bill: Plus an extra baby but they saved the extra they saved the baby that's.
• 38:52
  alex: True that they saved the baby.
• 38:54
  bill: They did that is actually my so all right i am not a vegan i'm not a vegetarian
• 39:02
  bill: um but there is like i do fundamentally think that i think that this,
• 39:08
  bill: the movie constantly draws parallels between oak jaw and the super pigs and
• 39:15
  bill: human beings specifically like what this movie actually does consistently,
• 39:20
  bill: especially when they, they,
• 39:23
  bill: and the end scene is like, so you cut from at one point you cut from a scene of, uh,
• 39:30
  bill: Oak job being like herded into a vehicle to crowds of human beings being going
• 39:38
  bill: up and down subway stairs, which look very much like cattle shoots. Um.
• 39:43
  bill: And later on, you know, we have that whole scene at the slaughterhouse and it's
• 39:49
  bill: all the fences, the guy, you know, the barbed wire, the fences,
• 39:54
  bill: the wall, the gates, everything.
• 39:56
  bill: And then what do we do at the end? We cut to Paul Dano getting out of prison.
• 39:59
  bill: What is he walking through?
• 40:01
  bill: High fences, barbed wire, gates, walls, the same thing.
• 40:05
  bill: And it's like, yes, this definitely does make you think about the idea of like the way we produce food.
• 40:14
  bill: And I will never argue that factory farming is a good thing.
• 40:20
  bill: I am 100% against that kind of like.
• 40:24
  bill: Methodology of food production. But with this movie, more than anything else
• 40:28
  bill: is that what it actually, to me, what it says loud and clear is that humans
• 40:34
  bill: are commodified by capitalists.
• 40:37
  bill: That's what is happening here.
• 40:39
  bill: Yes. Look at Oakjaw, look at super pigs.
• 40:42
  bill: And furthermore, the fact of the matter is, is that Oakjaw and the super pigs
• 40:47
  bill: are clearly shown to be not just intelligent, but sapient beings who care about
• 40:54
  bill: others and put others before themselves.
• 40:57
  bill: Right off the bat, Okja sacrifices herself for Mija's safety.
• 41:05
  bill: Or Okja lives, but when they fall off the mountain and Okja does that,
• 41:10
  bill: first of all, clocks, makes a plan and then saves Mija's life.
• 41:17
  bill: And then later on, those two -sweeper pigs deliberately harm themselves to lift
• 41:22
  bill: the wire and save their baby. Like, they're not dumb animals.
• 41:27
  alex: They're not, you know. There's also recent evidence that pigs also do that, which is.
• 41:30
  bill: Absolutely. Yes. Though pigs will also, let's not get it too twisted.
• 41:36
  bill: Pigs will also eat the tails off of their fellow pigs and will brutalize each other.
• 41:42
  bill: Pigs are incredibly dangerous, savage animals.
• 41:47
  alex: Yeah, they're closer to humans.
• 41:49
  bill: Yeah. They absolutely are. They 100% are.
• 41:54
  bill: Let's not paint pigs all as Wilbur from Charlotte's Web.
• 41:58
  alex: No.
• 41:58
  bill: They are brutal creatures. Go feral within six weeks.
• 42:04
  alex: What you're saying, it reminds me of the Kurt Vonnegut quote,
• 42:06
  alex: which is, life is no way to treat an animal.
• 42:09
  bill: Right.
• 42:09
  alex: Yes.
• 42:10
  bill: And like, I... To go back to the veganism, and I'm sorry. I'm going to talk
• 42:15
  bill: about like... Does anybody...
• 42:18
  bill: Does anybody have any, any, uh, Evan Ward, do you have, uh, objections to me
• 42:24
  bill: going about this a little bit?
• 42:25
  ward: No.
• 42:26
  bill: Okay.
• 42:26
  ward: I'm fine with it.
• 42:27
  bill: Evan? Evan, how?
• 42:29
  evan: Please, please.
• 42:30
  bill: Okay. This is my primary issue with veganism.
• 42:35
  bill: And what I think this movie still does address is that veganism and like,
• 42:41
  bill: Alex, I understand what you're saying. Like, I think you're right.
• 42:44
  bill: What you said about the article that you were reading, but you referenced.
• 42:47
  bill: but fundamentally veganism sets humans apart from animals and by animals i mean
• 42:53
  bill: like the animals we eat it's it takes humans and says you are not part of the
• 42:58
  bill: system you are a separate outsider what's that,
• 43:03
  bill: like i mean like literally like it basically it is a notion that makes that's
• 43:08
  bill: like humans are somehow superior and separate and isolated from the rest of
• 43:13
  bill: the natural system didn't.
• 43:14
  evan: You read animal farm.
• 43:15
  bill: Don't don't bring up animals i'm.
• 43:17
  Rusteen: Sorry i'm sorry continue.
• 43:18
  bill: Whereas like in reality humans are animals we eat animals and we eat plants
• 43:26
  bill: and like we are part of the system
• 43:28
  bill: the system we are part of the systemic ecology of the planet the issue is not
• 43:34
  bill: that you're eating animals it's that you have completely and utterly denied the,
• 43:38
  bill: And overridden the systemic ecological premise of your participation in the system and hijacked it.
• 43:46
  bill: And veganism is the same thing.
• 43:49
  bill: You're still separating yourself from the system and saying, I'm not part of that.
• 43:54
  bill: I don't participate in that. You do. You have to.
• 43:58
  bill: So I think not doing so is actually dangerous and bad.
• 44:03
  alex: I will counter with that. I think I really do recommend reading this article,
• 44:06
  alex: which is because I also have a similar thoughts of you do of like how much veganism
• 44:10
  alex: is performative, how much of it is really, you know, engaging with the bigger
• 44:12
  alex: question. And I think watching this movie, I thought a lot about like the perception
• 44:15
  alex: of the PETA movement from the 70s to today.
• 44:18
  alex: And I also thought about some research of like what happened to the Sunrise
• 44:22
  alex: Movement, of why the Sunrise Movement has sort of petered out.
• 44:25
  alex: And I think ultimately is that when you focus on these individual issues separate
• 44:29
  alex: from class, you always hit a wall. And I think- Absolutely.
• 44:32
  alex: I think vegans would agree with you. It's like, you know what?
• 44:35
  alex: Your point is fine. Let's get to a place where people can make that choice themselves
• 44:38
  alex: and they're not bound in a system that forces them into that choice.
• 44:41
  bill: A hundred percent.
• 44:43
  alex: That's a logical choice, but ultimately we're all forced into a system where
• 44:46
  alex: the food that is affordable is the food that is bad for us. The food that is,
• 44:51
  alex: societally acceptable is the food that's bad for us. If you guys want to eat vegan, eat vegan.
• 44:54
  alex: That's not stopping anybody. It's the it's viewing the issue of veganism as
• 44:59
  alex: a leading indicator of what's wrong, as opposed to a symptom of what's wrong.
• 45:04
  alex: I think that's that's the difference. I think this article, I think,
• 45:07
  alex: actually argues what you're saying is like by by understanding veganism as a
• 45:10
  alex: broader class issue, then that allows you to actually really move forward with it.
• 45:15
  alex: I don't want to talk about this more, but I also want to talk a little bit about
• 45:16
  alex: like watching this movie and the way it felt 10 years ago was like since this
• 45:21
  alex: movie came out, like the McPlant came out.
• 45:24
  alex: The McPlant was highly promoted and then the McPlant was removed due to the lack of interest
• 45:28
  alex: and just the rise of like impossible meat and then the disappearance of impossible
• 45:33
  alex: meat and sort of how this movie ties into the idea like, oh,
• 45:35
  alex: if we just like come up with a cheap alternative to the meat that's there,
• 45:38
  alex: people will switch to it. And yet they did not.
• 45:40
  alex: And so I wonder if you guys sort of had any thoughts of that in the lens of this movie.
• 45:44
  Rusteen: Well, I feel like those examples were not cheaper. Right.
• 45:49
  Rusteen: my recollection especially about a lot of the fake meats is that they cost as
• 45:52
  Rusteen: much as real meat if not more you're paying an extra five dollars at the burger
• 45:58
  Rusteen: shop to get an impossible burger
• 46:00
  Rusteen: instead of a regular burger and so that's maybe the reason why they failed in
• 46:05
  Rusteen: becoming a kind of luxury product instead of,
• 46:10
  Rusteen: a cheaper one.
• 46:11
  evan: It didn't didn't Burger King if I'm not mistaken have the like an impossible
• 46:16
  evan: impossible like I don't think the sales of it was good and they got rid of it.
• 46:20
  evan: I don't know. I don't go to Burger King, but I don't think that it succeeded in any at all.
• 46:25
  evan: And I think given the given the option, you're at a fast food restaurant.
• 46:29
  evan: Most people are going there because they want the not even cheap anymore,
• 46:33
  evan: but the you know, the bad for you hamburger and not because they're going for
• 46:36
  evan: the healthy alternative impossible burger.
• 46:39
  evan: And yeah, I it's interesting how the that when did that come out?
• 46:45
  evan: Was that around the same time as this film like being released that that became like the big.
• 46:49
  alex: Possible beat was like 2022.
• 46:51
  bill: Like that was longer ago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. More recent.
• 46:54
  bill: But it's also like, but again, like none of those things are also like,
• 46:59
  bill: that is fundamentally one of the issues is of those things. It's like none of
• 47:03
  bill: those like impossible meats or anything like that.
• 47:06
  bill: They're all ecologically as bad or worse than regular meat.
• 47:12
  bill: Like they, they're not better for the environment. And in many cases,
• 47:16
  bill: they're as bad, if not worse in the way they're produced.
• 47:18
  alex: I mean, it's a salvation will not come through capital. I think that's what
• 47:21
  alex: the movie sort of arguing is that.
• 47:22
  bill: A hundred percent. Yeah, totally.
• 47:24
  evan: Yeah.
• 47:25
  ward: Yeah. That's one of my favorite aspects of the movie is that like they,
• 47:29
  ward: they, they try to do moral and like ethical appeals.
• 47:33
  ward: And it's like, they don't give a fuck, dog. They got private security and they're businessmen.
• 47:39
  ward: They literally said, it's business. They don't give a fuck.
• 47:43
  ward: Until you made a deal with them, they don't give a fuck. Because guess what?
• 47:46
  ward: You didn't bring guns to this deal. They did.
• 47:49
  evan: Yeah, I mean, you learn that the CEO's twin sister is, she talks about how she
• 47:55
  evan: had run the company before.
• 47:56
  evan: I mean, she rules the company or would rule the company in just a,
• 48:02
  evan: we don't give a shit about what anyone thinks we will do these evil things they
• 48:06
  evan: don't even seem to even care that the
• 48:08
  evan: video has now been released to this crowd and we release this they i think one
• 48:12
  evan: of you said before is they'll just if they sell their meat cheap enough people
• 48:15
  evan: will just buy it because they need food and at the end of the day,
• 48:19
  evan: the corporation will still you know win yeah the.
• 48:22
  alex: The deal at the end is she goes i'll i'll give you okja as long as you pay me
• 48:25
  alex: for it and you can almost see that in her mind like okay let's actually let's
• 48:28
  alex: start the week of like we can also sell oaches as pets at an absurd price that's
• 48:32
  alex: fine by us as well like that's.
• 48:34
  bill: That's a big bet.
• 48:35
  evan: You'd have to pay with a golden.
• 48:36
  Rusteen: Pig though that's the only way to buy them it's a bit of a steep price.
• 48:40
  evan: I think.
• 48:41
  bill: Ward though touched on something when when ward when you said like how like
• 48:44
  bill: they're like we have the guns and i i think that like,
• 48:47
  bill: Bong Joon-ho is like saying something about, you know, it's a very subtle,
• 48:51
  bill: it's like, it's a subtle on like, you know, shot at like activists and organizers,
• 48:57
  bill: like largely in the West.
• 48:58
  bill: It's like, hey, hey, yeah, your non-peaceful protests, they don't do anything. You need to do more.
• 49:04
  bill: You, they have guns and they're going to use them on you. And if you keep on
• 49:08
  bill: just being like, no violence, they're just going to shoot.
• 49:11
  alex: Which is all funny because they know the makeup so far. After Reservoir Dog
• 49:13
  alex: characters and dress up like Reservoir Dogs.
• 49:16
  ward: We refuse to do.
• 49:17
  bill: Violence were you saying work.
• 49:19
  ward: Yeah no like you're only going to make it so far with non-violence like at the
• 49:23
  ward: end of the day they have guns and like evan like you're saying like the sister
• 49:27
  ward: like rules like more ruthlessly and it's like
• 49:30
  ward: that's not exactly true the other sister just puts on a better face yeah she
• 49:35
  ward: puts on that like classic 1.0 woke 1.0 face,
• 49:39
  ward: But like she was still talking about like, oh, we get our private security there
• 49:42
  ward: and we have our arrangements with NYPD, right?
• 49:46
  bill: Yeah, that line stuck out big time.
• 49:49
  evan: Yeah, that's what I said at the beginning. I think it's like her version,
• 49:52
  evan: the Tilda Swinton version is like the rainbow capitalism. Like,
• 49:55
  evan: yes, we're evil, but like, you know, it's going to be, you know,
• 49:59
  evan: we're going to make it sound cushy and nice for the for the viewer.
• 50:03
  Rusteen: But at the same time, like Mija doesn't save Okja with violence.
• 50:07
  Rusteen: she saves okja with capitalism she saves okja by making a gun well none.
• 50:14
  bill: Of them brought guns but that's all she can't.
• 50:17
  Rusteen: Demand yeah because.
• 50:18
  bill: The other side has guns just saves okja she does not affect fundamental change to the system.
• 50:24
  Rusteen: Yeah.
• 50:25
  bill: Like yeah she saves okja.
• 50:26
  Rusteen: She does.
• 50:27
  bill: Nothing else though.
• 50:28
  Rusteen: That's the the most she's able to do in that moment right like we're all you
• 50:33
  Rusteen: know yeah rendered helpless uh by the the slaughterhouse.
• 50:38
  bill: She's a kid i'm not gonna judge her too hard.
• 50:41
  Rusteen: Yeah we're not pulling out a glock and capping we get the nice cut to her.
• 50:45
  ward: Like on the farm with oaksha and then like cut to fucking paul dano getting
• 50:49
  ward: out but like during all that time how many more feedlots have they built of super pigs.
• 50:55
  Rusteen: I mean the the thing that really stuck out the most to me on this rewatch which
• 51:02
  Rusteen: is the line where Nancy Miranda says, we can only sell the dead ones.
• 51:07
  Rusteen: And then later says there it's all edible except the squeal.
• 51:12
  bill: That's an old farmer saying.
• 51:14
  Rusteen: Yeah. And like the end of the movie has them saving one of the little pigs and
• 51:22
  Rusteen: then all of the super pigs in the slaughterhouse start crying out and howling.
• 51:28
  Rusteen: And like, that's the one thing that is not profitable to the company.
• 51:34
  Rusteen: But it's also the most pure expression of their humanity, for lack of a better
• 51:40
  Rusteen: word. Like the thing that's not profitable is the thing that proves they are alive.
• 51:45
  Rusteen: And I think that is really just the symbol of how capitalism has just put a
• 51:52
  Rusteen: price on all of the super pigs heads, just like it does on Misia and all of ours.
• 51:58
  alex: It also made me think of like the weird disease that I think I can only speak of the American mind.
• 52:02
  alex: I can't speak of like the broader mind of like people in this country truly
• 52:06
  alex: care about animals more than people at this point.
• 52:08
  alex: As long as it's a cute dog, they care about that more than people.
• 52:11
  alex: It's like the John Wick franchise exists because the idea is like killing one
• 52:15
  alex: dog is worth 2,000 human lives. Like that is that is our...
• 52:19
  alex: face math of like here in la like they're the some people were like hanging
• 52:23
  alex: on their apartment celebrating because the nicks won and then the cops showed
• 52:26
  alex: up and killed the dog because it was wearing a nicks shirt and was like barking
• 52:30
  alex: and like the mayor came out and made a fucking statement be like well you know
• 52:33
  alex: we can never let this happen again we're gonna do some like real deep searching
• 52:36
  alex: why this happened meanwhile random people are getting shot and killed by the lapd every day,
• 52:40
  alex: but when it's an animal people care more and it's this weird sort of like given
• 52:43
  alex: pick of like if everyone in the country probably like supported okja but then
• 52:47
  alex: would not care about anything else besides okja.
• 52:49
  Rusteen: And we see that come up in the way that um,
• 52:53
  Rusteen: mija and jay relate to okja where at the end of the movie when okja is kind of out of it and bites her
• 53:01
  Rusteen: jay runs up and the non-violent activist is prepared to hit okja to save her
• 53:07
  Rusteen: and mija stops him and instead talks to okja to get her to let her go.
• 53:13
  Rusteen: Like, even the activist still sees Okja and all the pigs and all the animals
• 53:19
  Rusteen: as beasts that are separate from humanity in the way that you were talking about, Bill.
• 53:24
  Rusteen: But it's only Mija who really sees a connection that we are all the same.
• 53:29
  evan: Yeah.
• 53:30
  ward: Now, I kind of appreciated that from Paul Dano's character where it was like, I am for the animals.
• 53:36
  ward: Oh, wait, shit, that one's killing somebody? Nah.
• 53:40
  bill: I mean, there is a certain level of, well, I mean, I think that like part of
• 53:45
  bill: it, because it's never explicitly addressed, it's only subtext is the,
• 53:50
  bill: you know, like is the humanization of Okja.
• 53:54
  bill: And the fact of the matter is that this is, or not Okja, but the super pigs
• 53:57
  bill: in general, and not anthropomorphization.
• 54:01
  bill: Like this is not anthropomorphization. We are explicitly shown that these are
• 54:06
  bill: thinking, feeling creatures.
• 54:09
  bill: In a way that we can understand and recognize the same way that,
• 54:13
  bill: you know, if you pay attention and, you know, like, and be, I think it's,
• 54:18
  bill: it's, it stands out because this is a created creature.
• 54:22
  bill: This isn't something like, if you know, you, if you are aware,
• 54:26
  bill: if you know, like orcas are sentient, sapient creatures, they have culture,
• 54:29
  bill: they have language, they have dialects, they have all that shit,
• 54:32
  bill: you know, elephants, sentient, sapient creatures, you know, like, you know, but,
• 54:37
  bill: they have existed forever.
• 54:39
  bill: you know to humans it's like well that's just part of the background you know
• 54:42
  bill: it's like but this is like a new thing it's like oh and in many ways the super
• 54:45
  bill: bigs are really meant they serve as an allegory more than anything else but
• 54:50
  bill: you know it's like i kind of lost track where i was going,
• 54:53
  bill: well i think i really like them as.
• 54:56
  ward: I really like them as like an allegory for like nature and innocence and it's like,
• 55:01
  ward: it really shows like it's the system like capitalism that ruins these things
• 55:07
  ward: because we had all this time in the beginning with Okja on the farm with humans, no problem.
• 55:13
  ward: So it's not humans that are the problem. I mean, the movie ends with- It's once
• 55:15
  ward: they get into the system.
• 55:16
  alex: With the application that, like, Okja is now talking, if not whispering her ear.
• 55:20
  bill: Yes!
• 55:21
  Rusteen: Mm-hmm.
• 55:21
  ward: Yeah, that's crazy.
• 55:22
  bill: That was beautiful.
• 55:23
  ward: That was beautiful.
• 55:24
  alex: But I mean, I'm a white Jewish guy. I'm not in the place to talk about this.
• 55:27
  alex: But like, it's only two years ago did South Korea officially come up with a
• 55:33
  alex: plan of banning dog meat.
• 55:35
  alex: And it's a very dog looking animal. I think for Bong Joon-ho,
• 55:38
  alex: there's an extra element of that, which is that he goes to the West and there's
• 55:41
  alex: these animals that are held up as like the most holy thing for our society.
• 55:44
  alex: And then back at home, they are food. I think there is some element of that.
• 55:49
  alex: I can't speak to that with my own background, but there was something about that.
• 55:53
  bill: Except they are also pets in South Korea. Like, yeah, they're both. It's, you know.
• 55:58
  ward: Yeah, it's usually a specific breed that's for eating while like all the other breeds are pets.
• 56:04
  Rusteen: In the docks, he talks about like specifically using dogs and like the dogs
• 56:09
  Rusteen: of the various people in the production as influences for Okja, especially her eyes,
• 56:15
  Rusteen: the way as like the vehicle with which we form that kind of connection with them.
• 56:20
  Rusteen: So, yeah, she's very much like a dog mixed with a pig mixed with a hippo.
• 56:26
  Rusteen: And you're getting kind of like all the biggest parts of each of those.
• 56:30
  ward: Yeah, I mean, if you're going to pull from like an animal to try to like anthropomorphize
• 56:35
  ward: a sci-fi animal for like facial features and like facial expressions, dogs are a good one.
• 56:41
  ward: Because they've been so domesticated for so long that they like recognize human
• 56:45
  ward: facial feature of facial expressions and they'll try to mimic them.
• 56:48
  bill: Dogs trigger oxytocin release in human beings.
• 56:54
  alex: And we trigger oxytocin in them. It's like a very bad, yeah.
• 56:57
  ward: It's awesome.
• 56:59
  bill: Dogs are as much human as humans are dogs to a certain degree.
• 57:05
  bill: We are intimately, intimately connected as two species are unlike almost any other species.
• 57:12
  bill: There are very few species that we have a physiological, psychological,
• 57:20
  bill: and sociological connection to the way we do with dogs.
• 57:23
  bill: there are very few animals that we have that connection with i think they're
• 57:28
  bill: the cats cats are kind of like that but it's a whole other ball of you know.
• 57:34
  evan: Ball of yarn.
• 57:35
  bill: But yes god damn that you know i didn't want to say that i was like it's too on the nose.
• 57:40
  evan: You have to.
• 57:41
  bill: I know um do we get to complain.
• 57:43
  Rusteen: About cat people now because i'm kind of like bill but.
• 57:46
  bill: For cat people i'm i'm Totally okay with cats. I have no problem.
• 57:50
  bill: I literally work. Like I take care of animals as like my living.
• 57:55
  bill: That's what I do. I take care of like animals. Like I've been in the pet industry
• 57:59
  bill: for most of my adult life. Um,
• 58:05
  bill: But like, you know, there are very few animals that we have connections with
• 58:07
  bill: like that, you know, um, water buffalo in like Southeast Asia have that kind
• 58:13
  bill: of connection in a lot of ways, which is wild.
• 58:16
  bill: Um, but you know, it's, it's, there is a reason that dogs are seen that way.
• 58:25
  evan: Something else I was going to mention. well so this is this is like maybe going back slightly but the,
• 58:32
  evan: this like goes to like the parade near the end and i was thinking about how
• 58:36
  evan: you know the they show the video all the people are sort of like horrified by
• 58:40
  evan: the conditions of the miranda corporation,
• 58:43
  evan: and yet even in like real life we us and
• 58:48
  evan: majority of people know how evil so many different companies are obviously there's
• 58:52
  evan: boycotts of target and different companies we know the terrible things that
• 58:56
  evan: they're doing where that they do and yet,
• 59:00
  evan: you know most people will just sort of go about the day and be like well i still
• 59:05
  evan: need to eat and i don't like blame people for this you know like using amazon
• 59:09
  evan: because there's no other way to get the thing that they need medication or whatever
• 59:13
  evan: it is i guess the idea that,
• 59:16
  evan: That we've all been saying, I think, is that the system of this prevents the
• 59:22
  evan: ethical consumption of meat or the purchasing of,
• 59:26
  evan: any variety of goods, because we know these companies are evil,
• 59:30
  evan: but there's really no alternative in our current system and structure.
• 59:36
  Rusteen: Yeah, I found an interview with Bong, with Vice at the time the movie came out.
• 59:42
  Rusteen: And the interviewer asked, do you think we have it in us to moderate our behavior
• 59:47
  Rusteen: when it comes to capitalism?
• 59:49
  Rusteen: Can we control ourselves, whether it's through mass production or reliance on technology?
• 59:54
  Rusteen: And he answered, I don't think it'll be easy. It's always difficult to fight
• 59:59
  Rusteen: the stream and tide of capitalism, but we can't stay pessimistic forever.
• 1:00:04
  Rusteen: We always have to fight for change and strive for change and strive to make
• 1:00:08
  Rusteen: a crack in the wall of capitalism.
• 1:00:11
  Rusteen: I do believe there is hope.
• 1:00:13
  Rusteen: And I think that visual of making a crack in the wall,
• 1:00:18
  Rusteen: is really emblematic of Bong's oeuvre and his voice as,
• 1:00:24
  Rusteen: a filmmaker the idea that like we're not gonna break the wall down in a day
• 1:00:28
  Rusteen: but through each of us throwing ourselves at the wall like mija does,
• 1:00:35
  Rusteen: you know we can make a crack and eventually if we make enough cracks that'll you know change the tide.
• 1:00:42
  alex: Pete spent the last 40 years trying to shock people out of being out of eating
• 1:00:45
  alex: animals and if that would have worked that would have worked yeah but.
• 1:00:50
  bill: It's also, it has become increasingly clear that PETA is literally,
• 1:00:55
  bill: like, PETA's role in the system is actually to undermine those messages.
• 1:01:02
  bill: like they are part of the system and PETA notoriously has been implicated and proven to be,
• 1:01:11
  bill: part of systems of abuse and like death of animals because all of their shit
• 1:01:19
  bill: ends at that performative because they are actually part of the problem they are funded by you know.
• 1:01:26
  alex: I went to their website. They have a sign up. It's a join PETA's action team.
• 1:01:29
  alex: Be the first to know about epic protests. Sign up here.
• 1:01:32
  bill: Yeah, like they're not.
• 1:01:34
  evan: Yeah, I mean, like the thing, too, is that Miha only, you know,
• 1:01:37
  evan: they were saying is that she only is able to save Okja. She gives the she pays
• 1:01:42
  evan: the CEO for the for the pig. She gets to bring it home.
• 1:01:46
  evan: The baby also comes along in the same way that she's only able to save one thing.
• 1:01:51
  evan: I mean, maybe that the ALF is only able to reach 100 people,
• 1:01:56
  evan: 1,000 people that they see the evil that these corporations are doing.
• 1:02:00
  evan: I think that's what you're saying is that, yeah, these like little cracks eventually,
• 1:02:04
  evan: you know, eventually the dam will break.
• 1:02:08
  Rusteen: And decidedly at the end of the movie, she is still eating her chicken stew,
• 1:02:13
  Rusteen: right? Like through the course of this, she has not become a different person,
• 1:02:20
  Rusteen: as far as like, you know, eating meat goes.
• 1:02:22
  Rusteen: But she has, you know, regained that balance with her environment.
• 1:02:29
  Rusteen: And so I think that's the message of the movie, right, is that it's OK for us
• 1:02:34
  Rusteen: to enjoy the foods that we like.
• 1:02:36
  Rusteen: It's just about living in harmony with the world around us and getting outside
• 1:02:40
  Rusteen: of the hellish confines of what Wall Street determines we should be eating.
• 1:02:46
  evan: Yeah.
• 1:02:47
  bill: I mean, just like from the very beginning, like the very start of the movie,
• 1:02:52
  bill: when she talks about like the starvation, it's like that in and of itself is
• 1:02:57
  bill: a false premise because there is enough food.
• 1:03:01
  bill: It's like, there's enough food. You just hoard it.
• 1:03:07
  bill: How many millions of pounds of food are thrown away or left to rot on the vine?
• 1:03:13
  bill: Not even thrown away. It's not even processed. It's literally left,
• 1:03:17
  bill: it's left to rot on the vine and with armed guards to prevent people from picking it.
• 1:03:22
  ward: It's like 40 million tons in the US alone that's wasted for food.
• 1:03:27
  bill: I thought it was 30, but yeah, yeah, that's, yeah.
• 1:03:29
  bill: I knew it was somewhere in there.
• 1:03:31
  Rusteen: Not to talk about a different movie, but that's what Snowpiercer's all about, right? Yeah.
• 1:03:35
  Rusteen: The front of the train has high-grade sushi, and they've got beautiful farms
• 1:03:41
  Rusteen: filled with organic produce, and the back of the train gets their gelatinous cockroach bars.
• 1:03:47
  bill: It's almost like Bong Joon-ho has like a, he's got like an ideology of some
• 1:03:50
  bill: kind, and he's got, it's almost like he's got some kind of like thing going on.
• 1:03:55
  Rusteen: I mean, he's a real one. I don't know if you guys have talked about any of his
• 1:03:58
  Rusteen: other movies or anything, but he was throwing Molotov cocktails at the South
• 1:04:03
  Rusteen: Korean military as a college kid.
• 1:04:05
  Rusteen: So if anybody believes in the power of righteous violence, I do think it's Director Bong.
• 1:04:12
  bill: He just, I think.
• 1:04:13
  Rusteen: Also sees that a lot of the time the person holding the gun is just as likely to get shot.
• 1:04:18
  alex: I mean, him and Park Chan-wook are like the members of like the most leftist
• 1:04:22
  alex: Korean party, South Korean party there are.
• 1:04:24
  alex: We won't talk about Park Chan-wook's WGA status, but...
• 1:04:27
  Rusteen: He was railroaded. that's my theory.
• 1:04:30
  evan: Yeah I think on this we've done I've done The Host Snowpiercer and Parasite
• 1:04:35
  evan: the other three I've done I guess like the the big one at some point I'd like
• 1:04:38
  evan: to do Memories of Murder that movie is such a so good.
• 1:04:41
  alex: Have you guys done any Park Chan walk?
• 1:04:43
  bill: Yes we did old boy.
• 1:04:46
  alex: I would go through, if you're going to do more Bong Joon-ho,
• 1:04:51
  alex: I would do more Park Chan-wook because it feels like there are two directors
• 1:04:54
  alex: that are really in conversation with each other. And you'll often see Parasite
• 1:04:57
  alex: to me is like Bong Joon-ho being like, I'm going to try and do a Park Chan-wook movie.
• 1:05:00
  evan: Yeah, I love his new one. No other choice was absolutely robbed from getting
• 1:05:06
  evan: not a single award, even a nomination.
• 1:05:08
  Rusteen: And if we want to talk about the power of violence, I mean, the other two films
• 1:05:12
  Rusteen: in the Vengeance trilogy, Sympathy for Mr.
• 1:05:15
  Rusteen: Vengeance and Lady Vengeance are both very much all about what does it take
• 1:05:21
  Rusteen: from us to, you know, enact violence on people who deserve it.
• 1:05:26
  Rusteen: Right. Is that the morally correct thing to do or not?
• 1:05:29
  alex: I mean, no other choice feels like him trying to do a Bong Joon-ho movie.
• 1:05:32
  Rusteen: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:05:33
  evan: Yeah. I could see that, yeah. I think he produced some of Bong Joon-ho's films too, I think.
• 1:05:38
  Rusteen: Yeah, Park was one of the first to really blow up on the international stage,
• 1:05:46
  Rusteen: and he brought Bong up with him.
• 1:05:49
  evan: Yeah, I just saw he has two new films that have been announced,
• 1:05:52
  evan: but I don't know. I haven't looked into them deeply, but I know that's a whole
• 1:05:56
  evan: other thing. But yeah, we should definitely do another.
• 1:06:00
  evan: I definitely really want to do No Other Choice.
• 1:06:02
  alex: Also, I mean, it's a TV show, but The Sympathizer is worth hours of analysis.
• 1:06:06
  alex: It's really good. Where the only white people in it is Robert Downey Jr.
• 1:06:10
  alex: as different faces of capital. It's very good.
• 1:06:14
  ward: Yeah, I really enjoyed it.
• 1:06:16
  evan: Damn, I have not seen that.
• 1:06:18
  ward: You haven't seen it?
• 1:06:18
  evan: No. I've heard of it.
• 1:06:21
  ward: It was like widely under-advocized.
• 1:06:23
  evan: It was only a couple of years ago.
• 1:06:25
  Rusteen: Yeah, it just came out like two years ago, I think. It was Downey Jr.'s first
• 1:06:29
  Rusteen: like post-Oppenheimer project, but there's just so much TV out there, people didn't watch it.
• 1:06:35
  bill: Yeah, there really is. And it's like so much, and it's hard even,
• 1:06:38
  bill: like I started watching Widow's Bay because Ward mentioned it.
• 1:06:41
  bill: I didn't even know that it fucking existed.
• 1:06:42
  evan: No, I mentioned it.
• 1:06:43
  bill: Oh yeah, you mentioned it.
• 1:06:46
  Rusteen: Credit where credit's due.
• 1:06:48
  evan: It is true.
• 1:06:48
  bill: But you've watched it on board's server, I believe.
• 1:06:50
  evan: Yeah, I mean, it's one of those, yeah, it's one of those things.
• 1:06:52
  evan: There are so many, you know, like, prestige shows that things get lost now.
• 1:06:57
  bill: And networks, platforms. Not even networks, platforms. Yeah.
• 1:07:03
  evan: Yeah um but i don't did uh alex or rusty did you have any other notes or things
• 1:07:08
  evan: we didn't get to on uh that we may have missed or.
• 1:07:12
  Rusteen: Points um i think the the only other thing.
• 1:07:19
  Rusteen: To kind of talk about is just like the the fucking sound when they're walking
• 1:07:22
  Rusteen: out of the slaughterhouse and you just hear,
• 1:07:25
  Rusteen: the gunshots ringing forever and just knowing that that is happening like she
• 1:07:32
  Rusteen: will for the rest of her life know that that gun is firing every minute for the rest of her life.
• 1:07:39
  Rusteen: But I think the thing that Bong is really smart about is that nobody who works
• 1:07:45
  Rusteen: in the slaughterhouse is those people are all working their jobs.
• 1:07:50
  Rusteen: It's the only time we hear like we hear like Spanish in the slaughterhouse. Right.
• 1:07:54
  Rusteen: And when she shows the picture of her with Okja, the guy holding the gun stops.
• 1:08:02
  Rusteen: Like he recognizes that there's something important between the two of them
• 1:08:06
  Rusteen: and he has enough humanity to know that like I shouldn't do this.
• 1:08:11
  Rusteen: But then the boss shows up and orders him to do it. Right.
• 1:08:14
  Rusteen: And so I think what Bong is showing us is how, you know, we're all just following
• 1:08:20
  Rusteen: orders under capitalism.
• 1:08:22
  Rusteen: And it's making us do these inhumane things that we know deep inside of us are wrong.
• 1:08:27
  Rusteen: And I think a lesser filmmaker would have villainized, turned the people inside
• 1:08:33
  Rusteen: of the slaughterhouse into monsters in as much the same way as like Nancy is a monster.
• 1:08:39
  Rusteen: And he decidedly does not do that and allows them to stay human as much as Misha
• 1:08:44
  Rusteen: is. And that's that's why he's the goat.
• 1:08:47
  alex: Yeah i guess in the inverse of that the funniest scene to me in the movie is
• 1:08:51
  alex: when they're doing the uh the presentation
• 1:08:55
  alex: in new york and at some point there's like a rotating green uh,
• 1:08:59
  alex: that Jake Gyllenhaal is just sitting on and spinning and it's never really acknowledged.
• 1:09:05
  alex: As it rises. I did not bring that up on top of it. And just spinning.
• 1:09:08
  alex: And it's not acknowledged. There's no
• 1:09:10
  alex: joke. It's just him spinning in the background. It's a really good idea.
• 1:09:13
  Rusteen: The other thing I noticed for the first time in this is when Lucy is practicing
• 1:09:18
  Rusteen: her signature, she holds her pencil like a fucking toddler.
• 1:09:22
  Rusteen: She's just like holding it like a fist and doing the most childish signature
• 1:09:27
  Rusteen: you've ever seen with like little eyes on the Y.
• 1:09:32
  Rusteen: And it's like, these are the people in charge of society. They are literal children.
• 1:09:36
  Rusteen: They have not developed emotionally beyond like 10 years old.
• 1:09:41
  evan: Everyone's 12.
• 1:09:41
  ward: I've seen several people that write like that in real life. And it is beyond
• 1:09:46
  ward: me on like how they got to that point in their writing ability and skills.
• 1:09:51
  ward: It's like, did you guys not get the little thingy that goes on the pencil that
• 1:09:55
  ward: like shows you how to properly grip a pencil?
• 1:09:57
  Rusteen: Well, it's like seeing the Epstein emails from the CEOs that all like have zero
• 1:10:03
  Rusteen: grammatical syntax and are just riddled with spelling errors like these people
• 1:10:07
  Rusteen: just do not are not literate.
• 1:10:09
  Rusteen: Like when you reach that level of privilege, you don't need to learn how to read or write anymore.
• 1:10:13
  bill: I actually think that. OK, so I'm not going to talk shit about people who can't
• 1:10:19
  bill: who don't hold their pencils normal.
• 1:10:22
  bill: I guess that was me talking.
• 1:10:25
  bill: OK, let me back. but I'm not going to talk pencil people.
• 1:10:30
  evan: Jeez.
• 1:10:30
  bill: I will fucking talk shit about veganism all fucking day.
• 1:10:33
  ward: I'm coming for the pencil holders. All right.
• 1:10:35
  bill: It makes me angry. Um, it's a class fucking it's a class. It's a class is fucking
• 1:10:42
  bill: idiot. I fucking hate. Okay.
• 1:10:43
  bill: Anyway, I'm not going to talk to my people who can't, who don't hold pencils the way I hold pencils.
• 1:10:47
  bill: Okay. I'm not going to do that. But what I actually think the key to that is
• 1:10:54
  bill: that I actually think that That was a shot at Donald Trump.
• 1:10:59
  bill: Because if we fast forward,
• 1:11:05
  bill: I believe it's after that, when they have the meeting, and Giancarlo Esposito,
• 1:11:11
  bill: when they basically are all flailing,
• 1:11:14
  bill: and he walks away to the cappuccino machine, and he starts to make cappuccino, right?
• 1:11:20
  bill: And then he says to Lucy, he's like, this is what you're going to do,
• 1:11:24
  bill: right? This is what you thought of, right?
• 1:11:26
  ward: Such a power move.
• 1:11:28
  bill: Right. that's the whole thing it's not it is the fact that like i honestly do think that,
• 1:11:35
  bill: that was a shot at the the mentality like the other day i was on the phone with
• 1:11:39
  bill: like you know my mother and she's like you know donald trump and i'm like he's
• 1:11:43
  bill: not different and he's not the real problem,
• 1:11:46
  bill: it's the system and that's gian carlo esposito is the system and the people behind the scenes
• 1:11:54
  bill: that are savvy and do know these things and pull the strings and then put people
• 1:12:00
  bill: like that in power so that you can look at them and go, that person's bad and
• 1:12:04
  bill: stupid and ha ha, Elon Musk is a dummy,
• 1:12:09
  bill: Donald Trump is a stupid person.
• 1:12:11
  bill: While behind the scenes, you have the system doing all of those things.
• 1:12:16
  bill: And it's like, it's not the idiot practicing their signature.
• 1:12:24
  bill: That is the problem, you know?
• 1:12:26
  bill: They want you to think that that's the problem because then people like Giancarlo
• 1:12:30
  bill: Esposito are in the background. Like, you know, they're the ones profiting from
• 1:12:35
  bill: pulling the strings, actually keeping it going.
• 1:12:38
  bill: And you never get eyeballs on them and go, wait a minute, that motherfucker's got to go down.
• 1:12:45
  evan: Well, they show that scene when Tilda Swinton is giving the speech in the opening.
• 1:12:49
  evan: They pan to him standing above.
• 1:12:51
  bill: Yes.
• 1:12:52
  evan: Voicing the speech as if, you know, he wrote it. he's the one pulling the strings
• 1:12:56
  evan: above her literally so i mean.
• 1:13:00
  alex: I i definitely.
• 1:13:00
  Rusteen: Throughout he's undermining her of like being nancy's mole in all of her meetings
• 1:13:06
  Rusteen: helping to bring her back into
• 1:13:08
  Rusteen: the leadership of this company like those people want the evil people in.
• 1:13:13
  alex: Charge i mean it's always it's like a repudiation of like whatever woke capital
• 1:13:16
  alex: exists when 2017 came out is now fully dead uh,
• 1:13:19
  alex: i also while we're talking about the opening scene my other major notice i want
• 1:13:22
  alex: to talk about is that even though it is the fake origin for okja okja was still,
• 1:13:27
  alex: found in south america and then brought to arizona like it's it's it is capitalism
• 1:13:32
  alex: of we're gonna take the stuff from south america and then take it through the
• 1:13:34
  alex: border and that's how we're gonna make all this money that even though that's
• 1:13:37
  alex: the fake story that still is a reflection of just how american capitalism works.
• 1:13:42
  ward: Oh yeah no it's story of colonization tales all the time it has to be.
• 1:13:47
  alex: Also, what's up with Bong Joon-ho in Twins? I feel like he's like a big thing.
• 1:13:51
  alex: It's like Twins of just like the actor playing. Yeah.
• 1:13:54
  Rusteen: One thing he mentioned was like a big part of making this movie was just he
• 1:13:58
  Rusteen: wanted to work with Tilda Swinton again. And so why not have two of her maybe?
• 1:14:04
  alex: And so let's have, I want to really work with Robert Pattinson. Let's have 200 of him.
• 1:14:08
  evan: Yeah.
• 1:14:09
  bill: Yeah. Honestly, I don't really see an issue here. And we'll make one of the
• 1:14:13
  bill: Tilda Swintons Parker Posey.
• 1:14:17
  bill: I never had a chance to work with Parker Posey, so I'll make Tilda Swinton Parker Posey.
• 1:14:23
  evan: Exactly he does have like a lot of repeat people in a lot of his movies especially
• 1:14:26
  evan: the first few with uh like memories of murder i think the host is all and parasite 2 even,
• 1:14:34
  evan: like uh what is it song kang ho he's in like four or five of his films i like
• 1:14:39
  evan: that i always like that when directors have their like group of people they like to work with.
• 1:14:43
  Rusteen: I mean it helps when one of them is like the greatest actor of his entire country
• 1:14:47
  Rusteen: yeah exactly i was about to say one of the best actors of all time he's not.
• 1:14:52
  ward: In just a lot of these films he's in a lot of films a period because he's fucking great yes yes uh.
• 1:14:59
  Rusteen: The only other note that we didn't really touch on was just kind of like the cinematography uh,
• 1:15:04
  Rusteen: i think that they do this really amazing thing of like the film being like so
• 1:15:08
  Rusteen: colorful but then when they go into the slaughterhouse like those fluorescent lights just drain
• 1:15:15
  Rusteen: all of the life out from all the characters and it's just this like sickly blue
• 1:15:20
  Rusteen: and um this was shot by darius konji who's like a famous like iranian french
• 1:15:25
  Rusteen: cinematographer he shot in,
• 1:15:28
  Rusteen: just last year alone he shot mickey 17 eddington and marty supreme which is
• 1:15:34
  Rusteen: just like such a fucking triple threat of films to shoot uh,
• 1:15:40
  Rusteen: and and he does really great work here's getting to shoot basically like a action
• 1:15:45
  Rusteen: movie which he never really gets to do didn't.
• 1:15:47
  evan: He do uncut gems too.
• 1:15:49
  Rusteen: He did uncut gems too as well yeah josh safty kept him in the divorce.
• 1:15:53
  evan: Like and i almost i always it's funny you mentioned well yeah like that's like
• 1:15:57
  evan: the frenetic pace of those different marty supreme uncut gems yeah that's.
• 1:16:02
  Rusteen: Yeah that whole chase sequence feels like a warm-up to a lot of the chase sequences
• 1:16:07
  Rusteen: in marty supreme as she's like running through the streets and down into the the underground mall,
• 1:16:16
  Rusteen: really reminded me of Marty running through the streets of New York in that film.
• 1:16:19
  alex: Rustin, you don't want to talk about Bardo, False Chronicle of a Handful of
• 1:16:21
  alex: Truths, his other movie of the last two years?
• 1:16:24
  Rusteen: You know, I haven't seen it, so I'm not going to.
• 1:16:27
  alex: I'm happy not. Speaking of Netflix movies that don't exist.
• 1:16:35
  evan: I don't think I've ever seen that. Actually, I don't even know if I've ever heard of it.
• 1:16:38
  alex: It's the latest In a Ritu movie, and I will say I'm not a fan of In a Ritu,
• 1:16:42
  alex: and we'll leave it there.
• 1:16:44
  Rusteen: I'm quite curious to see Digger. That's all I'll say. I'm very curious to see that one.
• 1:16:50
  evan: I think I saw Babel and just gave up from there.
• 1:16:52
  Rusteen: I liked Birdman, but I'm afraid to go back and watch it.
• 1:16:56
  bill: I liked Birdman. My wife hated it.
• 1:16:59
  ward: Yeah, I like Birdman. I'm also afraid to go back and watch it.
• 1:17:03
  evan: Actually, The Revenant was actually pretty.
• 1:17:06
  bill: I love The Revenant.
• 1:17:09
  ward: I wasn't too big a fan of three hours of heavy mouth breathing. I wasn't into that.
• 1:17:16
  alex: I didn't even talk about the Pandora's box on this one.
• 1:17:18
  Rusteen: I'm sorry. If you want to hear our thoughts about In Yuritu,
• 1:17:22
  Rusteen: you can listen to our podcast, In Yuritu, in which we talk about all of Alexander
• 1:17:28
  Rusteen: In Yuritu's films, two minutes at a time.
• 1:17:31
  evan: What's funny is that all of the ones we just mentioned were divisive between
• 1:17:36
  evan: the five of us. I hate it. I loved it. So that just seems to be the...
• 1:17:42
  evan: The vibe he gives off with his films. But for the Andorx, did you have any,
• 1:17:47
  evan: I think you mentioned at the beginning, but do you want to remind anyone of
• 1:17:50
  evan: what, what episode are you on right now, approximately in the Andorx series?
• 1:17:56
  Rusteen: So if this episode's coming out around 4th of July weekend, it's actually a
• 1:18:01
  Rusteen: very special episode because it is the debut of everyone's favorite anarchist
• 1:18:07
  Rusteen: revolutionary Saw Gerrera on Andorx.
• 1:18:12
  Rusteen: we're going to be covering.
• 1:18:13
  alex: And two tubes.
• 1:18:15
  Rusteen: Everybody's yes his right hand man,
• 1:18:21
  Rusteen: it's the very end of the first episode of the Narkina arc,
• 1:18:26
  Rusteen: and so we are now deep into Kino Loy season and
• 1:18:31
  Rusteen: so we're going to talk a lot of Andy Serkis and so you can check that out at
• 1:18:35
  Rusteen: andorkspod.com we also have a Patreon where we're covering detours of stuff related to and or.
• 1:18:43
  alex: Yes we just went deep on uh the star wars uh saw guerrera throughout the star
• 1:18:49
  alex: wars properties and how he evolved as a character and how he's how how he presents
• 1:18:53
  alex: differently depending on the age range of the product but.
• 1:18:56
  Rusteen: Yeah and and we'll soon be talking about uh andy circus's uh,
• 1:19:03
  Rusteen: directed Animal Farm movie as well. So just to get a real range of the kinds
• 1:19:08
  Rusteen: of stuff we're getting to talk about in our detours.
• 1:19:12
  alex: About Trotsky's Andy Serkis.
• 1:19:15
  bill: Would you like to have Evan on for that special Patreon episode?
• 1:19:18
  Rusteen: I watched that movie.
• 1:19:18
  bill: He's the only one that tortured himself by watching that movie.
• 1:19:22
  evan: My God. We were doing like a special episode and we were talking about it.
• 1:19:27
  evan: I was talking about it and just...
• 1:19:28
  evan: I told him I don't think I could actually watch it again to talk about it in
• 1:19:32
  evan: detail because it was it was it was rough.
• 1:19:35
  bill: I maintain that it is our duty to do so and we're also refuse to do it.
• 1:19:41
  ward: It's like our whole thing we're like no.
• 1:19:44
  evan: I have the.
• 1:19:45
  Rusteen: Reason to have a podcast is just to make people watch stuff that you want to make them watch right so.
• 1:19:51
  evan: What's more.
• 1:19:51
  alex: Cursed andy circus wanting people left this project and he had forced into angel
• 1:19:56
  alex: studios or literally the 1950s version which was produced by the cia which is
• 1:20:01
  alex: the which which way modern man which is worse.
• 1:20:03
  evan: Yeah yeah six one way half a dozen yeah exactly exactly no it's it's like famously
• 1:20:11
  evan: i watch will be like this movie looks terrible who would watch that and then i'll watch it,
• 1:20:16
  evan: you know i'll just fuck you know yeah we did not watch we did do an episode
• 1:20:21
  evan: on melania but we didn't actually watch melania it was more of an april fool's
• 1:20:25
  evan: joke because we couldn't even bring ourselves yeah we just.
• 1:20:29
  ward: Talked about state flags instead that's great.
• 1:20:32
  evan: Yeah because i don't even think i could torture myself with that.
• 1:20:34
  ward: What state won hey apparently there's a new.
• 1:20:37
  evan: Worst movie we didn't really pick wasn't i what wow did we have a winner what
• 1:20:41
  evan: we thought was the best state do Do you remember?
• 1:20:43
  bill: Yeah, there were definitely, you know, ones that we liked.
• 1:20:46
  ward: And there were standouts. I don't know if we played.
• 1:20:47
  evan: California was definitely up near the top of, like, states.
• 1:20:49
  bill: California was up in the top. Well, we all did really like Arizona. I do remember that.
• 1:20:56
  evan: We did not like Maryland, which is my home state.
• 1:20:58
  bill: We also really liked Ohio because it's not a rectangle.
• 1:21:01
  ward: We liked Oregon because it was the only double-sided one, right?
• 1:21:05
  bill: Yes.
• 1:21:06
  ward: Yeah.
• 1:21:07
  bill: It got props for that. It is kind of ugly, but it got props for that.
• 1:21:10
  ward: But it's got a beaver on the back.
• 1:21:11
  bill: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:21:12
  ward: And it's the only one that has a back.
• 1:21:14
  alex: The new Minnesota flag kind of whips. I really like it.
• 1:21:16
  evan: Oh. Did we talk about that? We must have.
• 1:21:19
  bill: Oh, yes.
• 1:21:20
  alex: It's like shaped like Minnesota on the left, but there's a star on it.
• 1:21:22
  bill: Yeah. That one is also... We actually... I think... I don't...
• 1:21:26
  bill: We skipped that one. But it is one of the nicer ones. It's a clean look.
• 1:21:31
  Rusteen: I don't know. It's giving Aldi to me.
• 1:21:34
  alex: Well, don't forget that Aldi on the left is the shape of Minnesota. That's why it's cool.
• 1:21:38
  ward: That's true.
• 1:21:39
  alex: It's such a little broken shape.
• 1:21:41
  bill: The important thing is that we just thoroughly trashed Washington's flag for one.
• 1:21:47
  evan: Yeah. There is definitely.
• 1:21:49
  alex: Are there flags in Star Wars? Like, is there a flag of a planet?
• 1:21:53
  bill: That's a great question.
• 1:21:54
  Rusteen: Yeah, the Gorman have a flag at the very least. So I have to imagine the other planets have flags.
• 1:22:00
  Rusteen: Let's look up. Are we going to look up flags on Wikipedia now?
• 1:22:04
  alex: We'll save that for our.
• 1:22:04
  evan: I'm already there. I'm already there.
• 1:22:06
  ward: What's the Tusken Raiders flag?
• 1:22:09
  bill: They don't have a flag.
• 1:22:10
  evan: So it does look like certain places. They move from Oakland.
• 1:22:14
  alex: They moved to Oak and they played the same flag.
• 1:22:16
  bill: Jesus Christ. That is, even I got that joke and I hate sports.
• 1:22:22
  evan: Alderaan had a flag, it looks like. A few of them did.
• 1:22:26
  Rusteen: If you want deep dives into Wookiepedias, come join us on AndorksPod.
• 1:22:30
  Rusteen: You can find us on social media at AndorksPod.
• 1:22:33
  alex: And as someone who hosts a Star Wars podcast, getting basic information about
• 1:22:37
  alex: Star Wars wrong, you'll really enjoy it and can just yell at me remotely.
• 1:22:44
  evan: The one fan base that you will definitely anger or anger somebody i suppose.
• 1:22:48
  Rusteen: We've got leftists and star wars fans so it's a real cat and dog fight.
• 1:22:54
  evan: Going on in our who's more annoying yeah yeah,
• 1:22:59
  evan: awesome well uh alex and ristine thank you for uh coming on to uh talk about
• 1:23:04
  evan: okja and everyone should go check out your podcast where you all the podcast
• 1:23:08
  evan: places as well as Left of the Jector.
• 1:23:11
  evan: And thanks again for coming on.
• 1:23:13
  Rusteen: Thanks for having us.
• 1:23:15
  evan: Of course. And we will, for myself, Evan, Bill Ward, we will catch you next time.
• 1:23:20
  alex: We're not putting on all of our balaclavas like the post-credits scene.
• 1:23:25
  ward: I like that they brought an extra one.
• 1:23:27
  alex: Just in case a comrade.
• 1:23:29
  ward: Yeah. I don't know if they did, but like, you know, a comrade might forget or
• 1:23:35
  ward: you might make a new comrade along the way.
• 1:23:37
  bill: Yeah.
• 1:23:37
  ward: So, like, I like that they had the extra.
• 1:23:39
  Rusteen: That solidarity.
• 1:23:41
  bill: I think they all had an extra one on them just in case.
• 1:23:44
  ward: Yeah, I feel, you know what I mean? Just in case somebody forgot. Or you make a friend.
• 1:23:50
  bill: Yeah.