Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Remarkable World Commentary Episode #118: Interview with Michael Feir, Author, Personal Power

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Remarkable World Commentary Episode #118: Interview with Michael Feir, Author, Personal Power · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

0:12
Podcast Commentator: [upbeat digital music] Greetings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB,
0:16
Podcast Commentator: ACSP, and MBA invites you to listen to her bi-weekly podcast,
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Podcast Commentator: Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts,
0:27
Podcast Commentator: insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners.
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Podcast Commentator: Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids,
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Podcast Commentator: especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate,
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Podcast Commentator: author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer,
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Podcast Commentator: entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator.
0:50
Podcast Commentator: She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills,
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Podcast Commentator: and expertise in access technology and information.
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Podcast Commentator: As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles,
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Podcast Commentator: she just wants to make things better than possible.
1:06
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello, everyone,
1:08
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and welcome to another episode of the Remarkable World Commentary.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate,
1:19
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch,
1:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and stubborn optimism.
1:27
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I am a law graduate, an accessibility consultant, author,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: lifelong barrier buster, who also happens to be blind.
1:38
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November of 2010,
1:44
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I won the landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its
1:50
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones.
1:56
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And in July of 2019,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: disability groups to turn equal access into federal law.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: tireless commitment to removing barriers.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: producing audio mysteries,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: plain language.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Everything I do circles one goal,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and that is to turn accessibility from an afterthought into
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: everyday practice.
3:00
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: where policy meets lived experience,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and lived experience sparks fresh ideas.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Before we jump into today's conversation,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: let me shine a quick spotlight on today's guest,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: a change-maker whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: world that we are trying to build.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I am pleased and privileged to welcome Mike Feir.
3:37
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I hope
3:38
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I am pronouncing your name correctly.
3:40
Michael Feir: It's actually Feir.
3:42
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Feir.
3:42
Michael Feir: [laughs] Yeah.
3:43
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. I'm pleased to welcome you to the Remarkable World Commentary
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: podcast. Welcome, Mike.
3:52
Michael Feir: It's a pleasure to be here.
3:54
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you.
3:55
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right, so let's jump right in.
4:01
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And in 1996,
4:04
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you founded Audyssey,
4:07
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: a free email magazine that was devoted to games that blind people could
4:13
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: play, and you edited its first 40 issues through
4:19
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: 2004. What sparked the idea,
4:25
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and what did it take to build and sustain a volunteer
4:30
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: publication with readers in at least 14
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: countries? Tell us.
4:37
Michael Feir: Well, it all started because in 1996, a couple of things happened to coincide.
4:43
Michael Feir: One of them was I had come across a magazine called XYZZYnews.
4:49
Michael Feir: And that's X-Y-Z-Z-Y N-E-W-S. And it was all about interactive fiction,
4:54
Michael Feir: text adventures, which I had been playing since I was a kid.
4:58
Michael Feir: And I was just blown away by this magazine that started,
5:01
Michael Feir: that really took the art form seriously and was looking back at older games that I
5:07
Michael Feir: was familiar with,
5:08
Michael Feir: and then telling me about new ones that I hadn't even known were around.
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Michael Feir: So it was a huge
5:14
Michael Feir: kind of moment, finding that magazine earlier in the year,
5:19
Michael Feir: earlier '96. And then in July,
5:23
Michael Feir: when I went home from university, there was nothing
5:27
Michael Feir: to do in terms of finding a summer job. A lot of other students,
5:29
Michael Feir: a lot of my friends were working, and there was just nothing.
5:33
Michael Feir: And I thought, "Okay, I could sit here and grouch about that,
5:36
Michael Feir: or I could start something." So I decided to call it Audyssey,
5:41
Michael Feir: A-U-D-Y-S-S-E-Y, as kind of a nod to games being journeys of the mind,
5:47
Michael Feir: and also audio.
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Michael Feir: And thankfully,
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Michael Feir: my deafblind readers forgave me for that [laughs] unintentional slight against
5:55
Michael Feir: them. 'Cause of course their games don't have to be necessarily auditory to be
6:00
Michael Feir: playable by blind people. So
6:03
Michael Feir: that was how it all started. That summer,
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Michael Feir: I did the first issue and published it on CompuServe.
6:10
Michael Feir: And
6:11
Michael Feir: from that closed environment,
6:14
Michael Feir: I just also decided to send it out on something called Sky Club,
6:17
Michael Feir: which is a CNIB list,
6:21
Michael Feir: and that was the first time I kind of started a bit of a flame war because some
6:26
Michael Feir: people really objected to this massive magazine
6:30
Michael Feir: kind of suddenly appearing. And
6:32
Michael Feir: I guess
6:34
Michael Feir: it did cost information for some people. It was very tight,
6:38
Michael Feir: the information they got. So there was a back and forth
6:42
Michael Feir: flame war about this. But luckily enough people liked it and it spread.
6:47
Michael Feir: People stepped up and said, "Hey,
6:49
Michael Feir: I could make an email list that people could sign up if they wanna get it."
6:52
Michael Feir: And
6:54
Michael Feir: one of the big things was
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Michael Feir: learning, like, if you don't know what you're doing,
6:58
Michael Feir: accept the help, right? And ask.
7:03
Michael Feir: And so I did.
7:05
Michael Feir: Travis Siegel and a bunch of other people were responsible for starting
7:10
Michael Feir: mailing lists, distributing the magazine on that list,
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Michael Feir: telling me how to do that.
7:16
Michael Feir: And then it just kept growing. More and more people joined the list,
7:21
Michael Feir: and it became,
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Michael Feir: I wanna discuss things between issues, so okay, we'll open it up to that.
7:28
Michael Feir: And then it became, well, this is getting a bit fractious.
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Michael Feir: Maybe moderation
7:34
Michael Feir: should happen.
7:35
Michael Feir: I found myself now trying to come up with a charter or constitution for the
7:40
Michael Feir: community of this free magazine.
7:44
Michael Feir: And I had staff join me. I had a volunteer staff.
7:48
Michael Feir: One time it was about four people.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Whoa.
7:50
Michael Feir: And they all just decided to regularly contribute articles,
7:54
Michael Feir: which was the biggest thing.
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Michael Feir: Getting people to contribute to something if they're not getting paid is tougher.
8:02
Michael Feir: So
8:04
Michael Feir: I just kept it going, and it kept kind of growing.
8:07
Michael Feir: The community kept getting bigger. I kept getting these emails from all over.
8:12
Michael Feir: I got an email from a librarian in Russia that was using it to teach language,
8:16
Michael Feir: to teach English to Russians.
8:19
Michael Feir: And a US senator, Bob Mahoney, apparently one of the blind,
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Michael Feir: I'm not sure if he was the only blind senator, but it's not a high number,
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Michael Feir: and he contacted me
8:32
Michael Feir: about the magazine and was happy to see it.
8:34
Michael Feir: So there were all kinds of situations like that, that suddenly I found
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Michael Feir: that people were reaching back and really cared about what I did.
8:44
Michael Feir: And that kind of kept me caring about [laughs] what I did,
8:47
Michael Feir: so
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Michael Feir: that's why it lasted eight years. [laughs]
8:51
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But 14 countries, my God.
8:54
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Whoa.
8:55
Michael Feir: Yeah. I
8:57
Michael Feir: didn't expect that, 'cause I had no idea.
9:01
Michael Feir: Like, there was no way to keep... I wasn't asking any money for it.
9:05
Michael Feir: There was the list of email addresses, but I mean, that was huge.
9:08
Michael Feir: No one looked at that really, I didn't think. But obviously someone did,
9:11
Michael Feir: and they said, "Hey, you know,
9:12
Michael Feir: we're in at least 14 countries given the addresses here."
9:15
Michael Feir: I'm like, wow. [laughs] I just never thought it would go that far.
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Michael Feir: And so it was
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Michael Feir: just very rewarding. I learned so much about leadership,
9:27
Michael Feir: about responsibility for one's words.
9:31
Michael Feir: All kinds of things like that.
9:34
Michael Feir: So it taught me a lot.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I like your quotation, if you don't know something,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: ask.
9:41
Michael Feir: Yes.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Don't assume that I know it. I don't know it, so I've got to ask.
9:45
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs]
9:46
Michael Feir: Yep, absolutely. Don't be afraid to ask, and don't be afraid to accept help.
9:50
Michael Feir: If you're doing something for free,
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Michael Feir: don't burn yourself out trying to be the master of absolutely everything.
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Michael Feir: If someone's willing to step up and help, let them,
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Michael Feir: right? [laughs] I mean,
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Michael Feir: that's the other side of it too, is don't let it burn you out.
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Michael Feir: I got burnt out at the end of Audyssey, so that taught me
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Michael Feir: a bit of a stiff lesson in the end about that as well.
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Michael Feir: [laughs]
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I agree with you. I mean, accept help freely, but the other thing,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you cannot be master of everything.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I just finished learning that through another project that I had started,
10:23
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: the John Panarese Memorial Project.
10:26
Michael Feir: Ah, yes.
10:26
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Found myself... Oh, God. I may talk to you about this afterwards,
10:31
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: but anyways, let's go on.
10:32
Michael Feir: All right.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's all about you now.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you believe that people learn the best when they are having
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: so much fun that they do not even notice that the learning is
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: happening. Can you explain that philosophy,
10:50
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and what would you say to parents, teachers,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and young blind people about the role that play and fun can
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: have in building independence?
11:04
Michael Feir: Well, when I got my first computer and first Braille display,
11:09
Michael Feir: VersaBraille, it ran on tapes.
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Michael Feir: It was sold as a way for me to get my work done.
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Michael Feir: And that's typically, unfortunately, how blind people are introduced to technology.
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Michael Feir: This will help you do work that you probably are not going to enjoy,
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Michael Feir: but you can do it.
11:27
Michael Feir: So learn this. And it's like, okay, like, this is...
11:31
Michael Feir: Let's compare this to sighted children. When they get computers,
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Michael Feir: most often they're introduced to the new tech through games.
11:38
Michael Feir: The possibilities of computers, the possibilities of programming,
11:42
Michael Feir: it's wrapped in fun for them. Like, it's not all fun.
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Michael Feir: They still have to learn the skills of typing and— But
11:49
Michael Feir: when I first got my computer,
11:51
Michael Feir: one of the teachers thought to give me a disc of games.
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Michael Feir: It had about four or five games on it. And I took that disc home.
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Michael Feir: One of my favorite games was called The Great Escape.
12:02
Michael Feir: You're in a maze of 100 rooms, and you have to find your way out,
12:07
Michael Feir: and the exit is to the north. The villain or villain is,
12:10
Michael Feir: like, who it was, which is after you.
12:13
Michael Feir: And I spent as little time as possible doing homework,
12:17
Michael Feir: but I spent
12:19
Michael Feir: tons of time trying to beat this game and other games,
12:22
Michael Feir: and that taught me something about typing, 'cause you had to type in the...
12:26
Michael Feir: In that game it was just four letters, but other games you typed in words.
12:30
Michael Feir: Take rope. Tie rope. Things like that.
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Michael Feir: And you started to build typing skills playing these things.
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Michael Feir: So you come back to school on Monday and that fun you had over the weekend is now
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Michael Feir: letting you goof off in typing class because you know what you're doing,
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Michael Feir: and you have more time than anyone else
12:49
Michael Feir: to do that. So
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Michael Feir: it pays. It teaches you... I learned all kinds of things from games.
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Michael Feir: Everything from using the review of my access technology.
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Michael Feir: If I'm using something and I'm interrupted
13:03
Michael Feir: when I'm listening, I have to be able to go back and hear what was said,
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Michael Feir: otherwise I miss out on that information. So
13:10
Michael Feir: games gave me a reason to learn how to do that, right?
13:15
Michael Feir: So there's all sorts of things like that, that
13:18
Michael Feir: it's much more palatable.
13:20
Michael Feir: I will go a whole weekend trying to figure out who murdered Dan Aykroyd,
13:25
Michael Feir: but don't ask me to do any more homework than the next kid,
13:29
Michael Feir: right?
13:31
Michael Feir: So
13:33
Michael Feir: if you have new technology,
13:34
Michael Feir: the best thing you can do is find something you want to do with it,
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Michael Feir: something that is actually interesting and hopefully fun for you,
13:42
Michael Feir: rewarding for you. Not some spreadsheet that you don't ever wanna do,
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Michael Feir: but you might have to. Something that you actually want to do with this stuff.
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Michael Feir: And that will
13:53
Michael Feir: turn it
13:55
Michael Feir: from a chore into a means to a delightful end,
14:00
Michael Feir: and that is crucial to really putting in the time it takes to really learn this
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Michael Feir: technology well.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So what you're telling me, Mike, is learning is fun,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: but if it is work it is not good? [laughs] Is that what you're telling me?
14:14
Michael Feir: I'm saying don't discount the
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Michael Feir: good sides,
14:21
Michael Feir: the good aspects of play. People dismiss play all too easily as total wasted time,
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Michael Feir: and it's not. It's engagement. It's mental stimulation.
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Michael Feir: It's thought-provoking.
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Michael Feir: People will go so much farther if they're having fun and if it's something they want
14:39
Michael Feir: to do than if it's something they feel they're forced to do or something they're
14:44
Michael Feir: told they have to do, you know? So that is the difference.
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Michael Feir: That is where play really can make a difference.
14:50
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. I never thought of it that way, but it does make sense.
14:54
Michael Feir: Yeah.
14:56
Michael Feir: It really does.
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Michael Feir: I've seen it both ways.
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Michael Feir: I've had those times when I've had to learn how to do something like math,
15:04
Michael Feir: like finite math. That was just disastrous for me.
15:06
Michael Feir: Right?
15:09
Michael Feir: With my spatial challenges it was just a dismal,
15:12
Michael Feir: dismal time that ate up weekends and hours and hours where everyone else was having
15:17
Michael Feir: fun. And I
15:19
Michael Feir: grew to resent math. I grew to
15:22
Michael Feir: resent the amount of work I had to do to solve stuff that other people could solve
15:28
Michael Feir: much more quickly with sight.
15:31
Michael Feir: And that just,
15:33
Michael Feir: I've never felt great about math ever since.
15:37
Michael Feir: It left a bad taste, you know?
15:39
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Oh.
15:44
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: After a decade of using
15:48
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: an iPhone,
15:49
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you spent three and a half years writing Personal Power,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: the iOS edition, a guide of more than
16:02
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: 250,000 words that was released in 2020.
16:07
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You have described this book as closer to a traveler's
16:13
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: guidebook than a manual.
16:17
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Why did you choose that approach,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and who did you have in mind as your reader?
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Michael Feir: The person I really wanted to help. Like, there are already manuals out there.
16:30
Michael Feir: If a nerd wants to know how to use an iPhone,
16:34
Michael Feir: there are manuals that are already out there. There are videos.
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Michael Feir: I felt there was plenty of help that was there for people who knew what they were
16:42
Michael Feir: doing.
16:44
Michael Feir: It took a while before it really occurred to me that it was the exact same position
16:49
Michael Feir: as when I did the guide for Windows. History was repeating itself.
16:53
Michael Feir: I kept running into people that didn't know
16:57
Michael Feir: that Siri was not what made an iPhone accessible. They had to learn VoiceOver.
17:01
Michael Feir: Because
17:03
Michael Feir: the people would be given iPhones by well-meaning sighted people who didn't
17:08
Michael Feir: know what they were really doing, and they were told,
17:12
Michael Feir: "Oh, you can talk to it and it'll do things." And that's technically true,
17:16
Michael Feir: but you can't read back. It won't read back a— It'll say,
17:21
Michael Feir: "I found something on the web. Check it out."
17:23
Michael Feir: And then you can't check it out unless you can use VoiceOver to read what's up on the
17:28
Michael Feir: screen.
17:29
Michael Feir: And other things. VoiceOver is what makes the iPhone accessible.
17:34
Michael Feir: If you don't know it,
17:38
Michael Feir: as good as AI has recently just gotten,
17:41
Michael Feir: you're still limited in a fundamental way from what you'll be able to really do with
17:46
Michael Feir: confidence on that iPhone.
17:50
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You're right. You're right. I mean, you can't go far with Siri.
17:56
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Siri only tells you what's there, but for you to read it,
17:59
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you gotta know VoiceOver.
18:01
Michael Feir: Yeah. And that's... A lot of people miss that.
18:04
Michael Feir: So I kept running into people who were in that situation,
18:06
Michael Feir: had these great devices, thousand dollar devices,
18:09
Michael Feir: and they were using them for accepting or receiving phone calls,
18:12
Michael Feir: maybe doing some texting,
18:15
Michael Feir: anything that they could manage to get Siri to sort of do well.
18:19
Michael Feir: And
18:20
Michael Feir: I thought, this is wrong. I'm using my iPhone as a replacement computer.
18:25
Michael Feir: In fact, I'd gotten into an argument with a friend,
18:27
Michael Feir: a very interesting fellow, Steve Rogaski, and I were talking about this.
18:32
Michael Feir: And I was telling him, "You know,
18:35
Michael Feir: this really has replaced my laptop in so many ways.
18:39
Michael Feir: I can take this and a Bluetooth keyboard and do pretty much everything that I would
18:42
Michael Feir: want to do on a laptop on my phone."
18:46
Michael Feir: And that was kind of the genesis, those two things.
18:51
Michael Feir: And then keeping hearing from volunteers,
18:55
Michael Feir: like, there was a volunteer that contacted me about someone up north.
19:00
Michael Feir: Joanne was her name, and she couldn't use her iPhone very well.
19:04
Michael Feir: She didn't realize that there were programs like Kurzweil,
19:08
Michael Feir: the Kurzweil Reader.
19:12
Michael Feir: You could aim it at a pamphlet on the table and take a picture,
19:16
Michael Feir: and in seconds it would start to read your community bulletin for you out loud,
19:21
Michael Feir: and she had no idea that that existed.
19:24
Michael Feir: So
19:27
Michael Feir: that was kind of the final straw, when I realized how much people didn't know.
19:31
Michael Feir: I had to do something, and I started writing it with that in mind.
19:36
Michael Feir: And then of course, as I was closing in on finishing
19:40
Michael Feir: at my own pace, the pandemic hit.
19:44
Michael Feir: And it was, oh my goodness. Okay,
19:46
Michael Feir: a lot of people are suddenly going to be pushed into doing everything online.
19:52
Michael Feir: Maybe I should hurry up and finish this. And so I did that.
19:56
Michael Feir: I finished it very quickly.
19:59
Michael Feir: And around that time as well was when Kelly and Company
20:04
Michael Feir: was getting going, early as I was making the guide.
20:08
Michael Feir: So that also, I was involved in that. And so a lot of things,
20:12
Michael Feir: when the pandemic was just starting, I published the book and
20:18
Michael Feir: it spread really quickly.
20:20
Michael Feir: One of the first emails I got was from an old lady in England.
20:25
Michael Feir: And she basically was in a nursing home.
20:28
Michael Feir: And I guess people were really busy.
20:30
Michael Feir: There was kind of a atmosphere of panic about this pandemic.
20:33
Michael Feir: No one wanted to go and help her find this ring.
20:37
Michael Feir: And she was able to, from reading my guide,
20:40
Michael Feir: she was able to get the Be My Eyes app and was able to use that to then
20:46
Michael Feir: get someone sighted at a safe distance to look through her phone's camera and help
20:50
Michael Feir: find that ring.
20:52
Michael Feir: So you get an email like that and you know you've done something worth doing.
20:57
Michael Feir: That just makes your day.
21:01
Michael Feir: It's basically why I keep doing what I doing, for interactions like that.
21:06
Michael Feir: Knowing that I put something in the world that made that much difference for people
21:09
Michael Feir: is hugely helpful,
21:12
Michael Feir: given what we're all going through.
21:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, I have to tell you, like I said,
21:16
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and I'd like to talk to you about this offline.
21:20
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I started a project in memory of the late John Panarese.
21:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I promised him, I promised him. He died of cancer almost two years ago.
21:29
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I promised him that I would really try to follow in his footsteps to bring
21:35
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: those who have lost their sight and those losing it closer to the iPhone so that
21:40
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: they would use it in different ways. But just listening to you,
21:45
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think I've been up the wrong track here,
21:47
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and I'd like to talk to you about this after if you're interested.
21:51
Michael Feir: Certainly.
21:53
Michael Feir: Certainly. Yeah.
21:54
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So let's go on. The second and third editions
21:59
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: of your book are also
22:02
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: available as audiobooks narrated with AI voices
22:08
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: from ElevenLabs,
22:10
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: thanks to the help of Harrison Tu.
22:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And the latest narration took only about two hours to produce.
22:22
Michael Feir: Yes.
22:22
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: As artificial intelligence moves into our phones and into our daily
22:28
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: lives, where do you see it helping blind
22:33
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: iPhone users and most,
22:37
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and what concerns should we keep in mind?
22:42
Michael Feir: Well, AI, the thing that I'm realizing is AI is...
22:47
Michael Feir: It's a huge change to suddenly have... What Apple has done is offered,
22:52
Michael Feir: its version is basically set up to be private,
22:55
Michael Feir: to not harvest your data for Apple's benefit,
22:58
Michael Feir: but to be a tool that you've paid for by getting an iPhone that
23:03
Michael Feir: is focused on helping you do your things.
23:07
Michael Feir: So basically,
23:09
Michael Feir: I trust that somewhat more than I trust a lot of the other AIs,
23:15
Michael Feir: just on that basic principle going in.
23:18
Michael Feir: But you still, with these AIs,
23:22
Michael Feir: people should keep in mind that
23:25
Michael Feir: it can be really helpful for basic things.
23:27
Michael Feir: Like I use it every night to make sure that my hearing aids are charging in their
23:32
Michael Feir: charger. My charger has two little lights, green lights.
23:36
Michael Feir: And
23:38
Michael Feir: you can't feel the heat off them or anything like that.
23:40
Michael Feir: They're tiny little things. So the only way to tell,
23:45
Michael Feir: I could call a sighted person with FaceTime or Be My Eyes,
23:48
Michael Feir: and I used to do that.
23:50
Michael Feir: And they would watch me fiddle with those things until finally we got both lights
23:54
Michael Feir: on. And then God help anyone who bunched my desk and caused even the slightest
23:59
Michael Feir: shift. That would throw them off.
24:01
Michael Feir: So now I can use my phone and the AI just built right into the phone,
24:05
Michael Feir: and VoiceOver scene description, to quickly check and make sure that,
24:11
Michael Feir: yes, there are two green lights on, and I don't need to involve anyone else,
24:15
Michael Feir: and everything's happening on my device.
24:18
Michael Feir: So that's huge. Things like that, getting descriptions,
24:22
Michael Feir: getting— New notification available... reading texts.
24:25
Michael Feir: You can get it to read text if you want, documents.
24:28
Michael Feir: Those are hugely helpful.
24:32
Michael Feir: So that's the kind of thing that AI can really help with.
24:36
Michael Feir: [beep] Record left, right. But when it comes to
24:41
Michael Feir: other things,
24:42
Michael Feir: you have to be more careful,
24:43
Michael Feir: and you always have to check that the AI has done...
24:47
Michael Feir: If you ask it to do something, make sure,
24:50
Michael Feir: double-check that it has done what you think it has done.
24:55
Michael Feir: It can hallucinate and give you wrong information very confidently.
25:00
Michael Feir: So I said, "Yo, send this message to Sarah."
25:02
Michael Feir: And it said, "All right, I've sent it," and it never sent the message.
25:08
Michael Feir: And it went back and forth. Finally, it did.
25:10
Michael Feir: This happens more with email.
25:12
Michael Feir: I've had it happen a couple of times trying to send emails,
25:14
Michael Feir: and you always have to go into your email program and just double...
25:19
Michael Feir: Has that message been sent? Right?
25:22
Michael Feir: Always check,
25:23
Michael Feir: because it's one thing if it hallucinates that there are 16 buttons instead of 18 on
25:28
Michael Feir: a Bluetooth speaker you're trying to figure out. That's pretty low stakes.
25:32
Michael Feir: But if it gets something wrong about the medication that you're grabbing off a
25:36
Michael Feir: counter full of bottles,
25:40
Michael Feir: the more important, the higher the stakes, the more you should check,
25:43
Michael Feir: either with more than one AI or, if things are really life and death,
25:48
Michael Feir: get sighted help, right? I mean, that's kind of what...
25:52
Michael Feir: It's not a perfect thing. It's kinda like GPS, can get you to the last mile,
25:56
Michael Feir: but then how do you navigate inside the mall, right?
25:59
Michael Feir: That's the kind of thing. So these things are not perfect.
26:04
Michael Feir: It's very helpful, extremely helpful in a lot of ways,
26:07
Michael Feir: but just keep in mind, it doesn't understand really what it's doing.
26:11
Michael Feir: It understands patterns, right?
26:14
Michael Feir: So
26:16
Michael Feir: it knows that glass and break are associated often,
26:19
Michael Feir: so glass can break theoretically, sure.
26:22
Michael Feir: But it doesn't understand what shards are really.
26:25
Michael Feir: It would have to look for other descriptions and sort of build its
26:28
Michael Feir: reasoning from patterns of words and build it up that way.
26:32
Michael Feir: So it's not really an understanding of things like you and I would understand it.
26:36
Michael Feir: And that's something people need to keep in mind.
26:39
Michael Feir: And then, of course, there's privacy, right?
26:43
Michael Feir: We get a lot of benefits from these tools, but they can also be used to do,
26:47
Michael Feir: unfortunately, some harm, and we have to bear...
26:50
Michael Feir: We're as responsible as everyone else to try and prevent that from happening,
26:55
Michael Feir: right? So that's another thing that we have to kinda keep in mind,
26:59
Michael Feir: I think.
27:01
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, just listening to the enthusiasm and excitement in your voice and
27:06
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: just learning the fact that
27:10
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: it's not all about asking Siri, who will tell you where to go and what to do,
27:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: but you can't read it back, so you have to learn VoiceOver.
27:18
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I never really thought of it in that way, and wow.
27:22
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs]
27:24
Michael Feir: Yeah. And of course, now there's a tutorial built right in.
27:27
Michael Feir: You can go into settings, VoiceOver. Settings, accessibility,
27:31
Michael Feir: VoiceOver, and then in there you'll find tutorial,
27:33
Michael Feir: and you should go through that tutorial and learn the basics at least of what
27:38
Michael Feir: VoiceOver, what gestures do what and why.
27:40
Michael Feir: It's good at explaining why you might wanna use all the different gestures.
27:44
Michael Feir: At least gives you a basic reason why.
27:47
Michael Feir: So I think Apple did. It took them 10 years too long.
27:52
Michael Feir: This should've been there right from day one. I don't know how they missed that,
27:57
Michael Feir: but thankfully now it's here, and anyone that can run iOS 27,
28:01
Michael Feir: which goes right back to the iPhone 11, will be able to now use that tutorial.
28:06
Michael Feir: So if there's nothing else you take away from this,
28:10
Michael Feir: know that that tutorial is there,
28:12
Michael Feir: and go there and make use of it.
28:14
Michael Feir: [laughs] There's so much you can do with the iPhone if you just,
28:19
Michael Feir: once you've learned the basics of VoiceOver, your life will be much easier.
28:26
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: For the entire run of Kelly and Company on
28:30
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: AMI-audio from 2016
28:35
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: until 2025,
28:37
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you produced a weekly segment about audio entertainment and
28:43
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: accessibility technology. Accessibility technology,
28:47
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: sorry. How did that opportunity come about,
28:52
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and what did you enjoy most about
28:57
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: sharing your discoveries with listeners every week?
29:02
Michael Feir: Well, it came about 'cause I had started my guide,
29:06
Michael Feir: and also hooked up with my wife Sara,
29:10
Michael Feir: and she is part of a group that does a reunion at W. Ross Macdonald School for
29:16
Michael Feir: former students of that school in Brantford, Ontario.
29:19
Michael Feir: And I was invited along to attend that reunion.
29:23
Michael Feir: I had actually attended W. Ross for a very brief two to maybe two and a half years of
29:29
Michael Feir: the start of my schooling. So I could have gone anyway,
29:32
Michael Feir: but I had no idea it happened. It was even a thing until I'd met Sara.
29:36
Michael Feir: So she thought I should go,
29:39
Michael Feir: and so we did. And
29:41
Michael Feir: during that weekend, I met Kelly,
29:46
Michael Feir: and we had conversations.
29:49
Michael Feir: And he really was looking for contributors to his show.
29:53
Michael Feir: He needed regular contributors to
29:56
Michael Feir: fill out the hour
29:58
Michael Feir: that his show was gonna be
30:00
Michael Feir: every day. So that's a lot of people.
30:04
Michael Feir: So I was happy to do that.
30:06
Michael Feir: And I thought it would help me basically build the next edition,
30:10
Michael Feir: right? If I worked on sections,
30:12
Michael Feir: and then I talked about what I worked on with every other segment,
30:17
Michael Feir: I kinda did.
30:19
Michael Feir: So I tried to split it up so that I had every week there'd be either a technology
30:24
Michael Feir: segment
30:26
Michael Feir: or an entertainment section.
30:28
Michael Feir: And that would give me long enough to sort of make sure that in both of those buckets
30:32
Michael Feir: there'd be something there.
30:34
Michael Feir: So I was always looking and getting audio dramas and different things to cover.
30:40
Michael Feir: So it did have a cost, but I was getting stuff I would've wanted to get anyway.
30:45
Michael Feir: And [laughs] so it was the first thing I was kinda paid for
30:51
Michael Feir: regularly, which
30:54
Michael Feir: just felt great. Just doing something and getting—
30:58
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Paid.
30:58
Michael Feir: That paid for it was, yeah.
31:00
Michael Feir: But I would've done it for free. [laughs] They could have had me...
31:05
Michael Feir: Maybe not at the pace they wanted, but
31:08
Michael Feir: I would've done at least some for free.
31:11
Michael Feir: But yeah,
31:13
Michael Feir: so I kept going for as long as that would go.
31:17
Michael Feir: And that turned out to be about eight years. So it was
31:21
Michael Feir: quite a long run, and
31:24
Michael Feir: I learned a lot,
31:25
Michael Feir: and I think I did a lot of good helping people learn their technology and know
31:29
Michael Feir: what entertainment is out there. 'Cause if suddenly you've lost your vision,
31:34
Michael Feir: you don't know about necessarily all the audio dramas and books and things.
31:38
Michael Feir: Podcasts, internet radio communities that are out there.
31:42
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right.
31:44
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow.
31:45
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Gosh. [laughs] Now,
31:48
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: every edition of Personal Power has been given away free,
31:53
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and you have never charged for it.
31:57
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: In 2024,
31:59
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: when your friend Jonathan Mosen organized a fundraiser
32:06
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: so that you could get a new iPhone and write about its newest
32:11
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: features firsthand,
32:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: it was fully funded in about five hours.
32:18
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Why is it so important that the book remains
32:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: free? And what did that outpouring of support from the
32:30
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: community mean to you?
32:34
Michael Feir: Basically, being on ODSP, Ontario Disability Social Support,
32:40
Michael Feir: there are a lot of rules around that, and in subsidized housing,
32:43
Michael Feir: you have to be very careful what you accept money for.
32:46
Michael Feir: And so
32:49
Michael Feir: if I were going to get an iPhone,
32:53
Michael Feir: I could never have justified buying an iPhone Pro myself.
32:57
Michael Feir: It would have to be a basic one. So basically, if I were gonna,
33:01
Michael Feir: I had a plan to do this without that generosity.
33:04
Michael Feir: I'm very glad I didn't have to implement that plan.
33:07
Michael Feir: I just never thought that people would care enough to really contribute like that
33:13
Michael Feir: much money.
33:15
Michael Feir: I thought maybe in a month there might be barely enough or something.
33:20
Michael Feir: But no. It was like I went to sleep, I woke up.
33:23
Michael Feir: I should have gotten coffee first, didn't,
33:26
Michael Feir: and started looking through my social media, and it's like,
33:29
Michael Feir: "Oh, yeah, we got enough. We're closing down the funding."
33:31
Michael Feir: I'm like, "What?"
33:32
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What? Yeah.
33:33
Michael Feir: How is this possible in a world this
33:36
Michael Feir: full of unemployed blind people who can't find work?
33:39
Michael Feir: How has this just happened? And
33:44
Michael Feir: I'm so thankful for those people. It is so vindicating.
33:48
Michael Feir: I never expected any recompense for my work.
33:53
Michael Feir: It's in honor of a very good man,
33:57
Michael Feir: John Morgan, who stepped in and helped us.
34:00
Michael Feir: He's a philanthropist, he was.
34:01
Michael Feir: He's unfortunately passed on before I could send him my first book.
34:07
Michael Feir: I was gonna
34:09
Michael Feir: show him, get him to see that I dedicated it to him,
34:14
Michael Feir: because he stepped in. Just a really nice guy that
34:20
Michael Feir: was retired and thought he'd help blind people all over the GTA.
34:23
Michael Feir: And Sara and I were beneficiaries of that generosity.
34:27
Michael Feir: And
34:29
Michael Feir: you don't meet people like him every day. He's one in a million.
34:33
Michael Feir: And he always said, "You know, you gotta help.
34:36
Michael Feir: If you're in a position of fortune and strength,
34:39
Michael Feir: you have to help those less fortunate. It's just your duty as part of life."
34:44
Michael Feir: And
34:45
Michael Feir: his actions, like helping us and helping other people,
34:49
Michael Feir: when he brought me in to advise him sometimes and help,
34:52
Michael Feir: if he thought I could maybe
34:55
Michael Feir: give an opinion that would help or maybe steer him in the right direction to help
35:00
Michael Feir: another blind fellow
35:02
Michael Feir: or something, I would always, always do that if I could.
35:06
Michael Feir: And
35:08
Michael Feir: that generosity, that sense of it adds to life to find ways to
35:14
Michael Feir: give back, is so true.
35:18
Michael Feir: And it was all because of, when I was a young 20-something
35:23
Michael Feir: year old,
35:26
Michael Feir: he came over to ask if I would be willing to go with him to help another blind
35:32
Michael Feir: person learn how to use a computer.
35:33
Michael Feir: I happened to say yes instead of no. And that relationship led all the way from
35:39
Michael Feir: that beginning to where we are now, with me keeping this— It needs to be free.
35:45
Michael Feir: He never asked anything in return, but just acknowledgement of what he did.
35:52
Michael Feir: And I don't
35:55
Michael Feir: ever want a barrier between what I'm enjoying myself so much and having other
36:01
Michael Feir: people be able to enjoy the same thing.
36:06
Michael Feir: If they've invested in an iPhone, the
36:10
Michael Feir: lack of information should not be what stops them ever from enjoying it,
36:15
Michael Feir: from making maximum use of it. It's a big investment.
36:19
Michael Feir: It shouldn't just be relegated to basic stuff.
36:23
Michael Feir: There's so much it can do, and so much I've gained from it.
36:28
Michael Feir: Shopping independence, freedom of who I communicate with,
36:32
Michael Feir: games, entertainment, books, especially books.
36:39
Michael Feir: I've got so many books on my iPhone, and they all just fit in my hand,
36:42
Michael Feir: and it's just glorious.
36:45
Michael Feir: And I want everyone to be able to do that if they want to.
36:47
Michael Feir: I don't demand that they do everything I do.
36:50
Michael Feir: I expect people to jump around in my book. I didn't design it to be read
36:55
Michael Feir: start to finish, although people keep doing that.
36:57
Michael Feir: [laughs] So I hope people
37:03
Michael Feir: find what they need from it,
37:05
Michael Feir: and I try to include as wide a range of stuff in it as I can so that there's
37:10
Michael Feir: something that will hopefully hook into your interests.
37:15
Michael Feir: Whether that be music, games, podcasts, internet radio,
37:19
Michael Feir: community, online communities, whatever it is,
37:22
Michael Feir: and you can find something to get started with and enjoying.
37:27
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know,
37:29
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I wish,
37:29
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I really wish there were more people who had similar sentiments to yours,
37:33
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and these are sentiments that I also share.
37:37
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I came into this world with nothing. I'm going to leave this world with nothing.
37:41
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But I want to give back something before I leave.
37:45
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And as the clock winds down, I have this question for you.
37:49
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You are now writing the fourth edition of Personal Power,
37:53
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: which you expect to
37:58
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: exceed
37:59
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: 400,000 words
38:06
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and to be ready for Global Accessibility Awareness Day in May
38:11
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: 2027. What will this new edition add,
38:17
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and what else lies ahead for you?
38:21
Michael Feir: Well, the new edition is,
38:23
Michael Feir: one of the big reasons I wrote it was to sort of help people with this transition
38:28
Michael Feir: to where finally now, two years later than we expected,
38:32
Michael Feir: we're getting our hands on Siri AI.
38:35
Michael Feir: And Apple Intelligence is being integrated into everything.
38:39
Michael Feir: There's the new things in VoiceOver recognition
38:42
Michael Feir: that can describe scenes and describe what's on the screen.
38:46
Michael Feir: Images on the screen. You can get all kinds of information,
38:49
Michael Feir: ask questions about,
38:51
Michael Feir: have it all done on device. There's so much power there.
38:55
Michael Feir: So it's gonna contain that. I'm still learning [laughs] my way around there,
38:59
Michael Feir: what all the new things are.
39:01
Michael Feir: It also contains a lot of sections to help people.
39:06
Michael Feir: It sort of coalesces information that might be a bit more scattered elsewhere.
39:10
Michael Feir: For example, how to write on an iPhone.
39:13
Michael Feir: I have a whole section just dedicated to how to deal with text,
39:16
Michael Feir: copy, cut, paste, select. All of that kind of stuff.
39:19
Michael Feir: Spell check.
39:21
Michael Feir: You have things on security. I have one section, for example,
39:25
Michael Feir: on a primer for people who might be in danger.
39:30
Michael Feir: So if you need to access 911 with your iPhone, if you need...
39:35
Michael Feir: If you're being stalked and you have to basically,
39:39
Michael Feir: if you're sharing information with someone and the relationship goes south,
39:42
Michael Feir: and you feel in danger,
39:46
Michael Feir: Apple has built in tools to help you extract yourself from that situation
39:52
Michael Feir: safely and cut off information from people you don't wanna have it anymore.
39:58
Michael Feir: So I talk you through that. What to do if your iPhone is stolen,
40:02
Michael Feir: right? All that kind of stuff.
40:04
Michael Feir: So there are things like that in the book, sections that sort of
40:10
Michael Feir: coalesce information to hopefully help beginners learn what they need to know
40:14
Michael Feir: most urgently, and then go into the bigger sections for more depth if they want.
40:19
Michael Feir: So there's a number of those through the book.
40:23
Michael Feir: There's more in Apple. Health,
40:26
Michael Feir: the games, updating to the section on games.
40:29
Michael Feir: A lot's happened in that space that I didn't expect.
40:32
Michael Feir: And it's happening right now.
40:35
Michael Feir: So I [laughs] didn't think I'd have much to add until,
40:39
Michael Feir: like, maybe in July, I started to realize, oh, things are happening here.
40:44
Michael Feir: It's vibe coding. People are starting to make their own apps.
40:48
Michael Feir: Same with reading apps. So all of that is kind of the changing landscape.
40:54
Michael Feir: I'm always trying to make sure people are aware of what's changing in the
40:58
Michael Feir: environment that they're in,
40:59
Michael Feir: and what new forces are at play behind the scenes that are going to help them
41:05
Michael Feir: have more options at their disposal than they used to.
41:09
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you for this interview.
41:10
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [upbeat music]
41:13
Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at
41:16
Podcast Commentator: donnajodhan@gmail.com.
41:20
Podcast Commentator: Until next time. [upbeat music]