Latest / Ancient Greece: Philosophy, Democracy, and Endless War — Fexingo History / Cleon the Tanner: Democracy's Demagogue or Voice of the People?
Transcript
- Lucas: So we've talked a lot about the big figures of Athens—Pericles, Alcibiades, Themistocles—but there's one guy who really gets under my skin, and I think he tells us a lot about how democracy actually worked, or sometimes didn't work. Luna: Who's that? Lucas: Cleon. The tanner. He's often called Athens' first demagogue, and he came from a background that was totally unlike the aristocratic generals we usually hear about. His father owned a tannery—think of the smell, the noise, the low social status. And yet he rose to become one of the most powerful men in Athens during the Peloponnesian War. Luna: So he was a tradesman who made it politically? Lucas: Exactly. And the elite hated him for it. Thucydides, who was an aristocrat himself, paints Cleon as a vulgar, violent-tempered man who whipped up the mob. But we have to be careful—Thucydides had his own biases. Cleon might simply have been the voice of the common citizen, the demos, who felt left out by the old guard. Lucas: Cleon first comes to prominence in 427 BCE, during the Mytilenean Debate. The city of Mytilene on Lesbos had rebelled against Athens, and the Athenians were furious. The assembly voted to execute all the men of Mytilene and enslave the women and children. But then they had second thoughts. Luna: Wait, they voted to kill everyone? Lucas: Yes, in the heat of anger. But the next day they called a new assembly to reconsider. And Cleon stood up to argue that they should stick with the original brutal decision. He said mercy was a sign of weakness, that empire is a tyranny, and that the allies only obey because they fear Athens. He was the hawk. Lucas: Opposing him was Diodotus, who argued that mass execution was actually bad policy—it would make future rebels fight to the death since they'd have nothing to lose. And Diodotus won, narrowly. The second ship was sent just in time to cancel the first order. But Cleon's speech in Thucydides is a chilling example of realpolitik. Luna: So even back then, there was that tension between tough-on-crime rhetoric and a more pragmatic approach. Lucas: Exactly. And Cleon wasn't just a talker. He also led military campaigns. In 425 BCE, he convinced the assembly to send him to Pylos, where the Athenians had trapped a bunch of Spartan hoplites on the island of Sphacteria. The generals there were dragging their feet, and Cleon boasted he could take the island in twenty days. Luna: And did he? Lucas: He did, with help from the general Demosthenes. It was a huge victory. The Athenians captured nearly 300 Spartan prisoners, which was a massive blow to Sparta's prestige. Cleon came back a hero. But Thucydides claims he just took credit for Demosthenes' plan. We don't know the truth. Luna: So he was both a demagogue and a successful commander? Lucas: For a while, yes. But his luck ran out in 422 BCE at Amphipolis, in northern Greece. The Spartan general Brasidas was a brilliant opponent, and Cleon's army was routed. Both Cleon and Brasidas died in the battle. And that's the end of Cleon. But his legacy lived on. Lucas: Aristophanes, the comic playwright, absolutely savaged Cleon in his play 'The Knights'. He portrayed him as a lying, thieving, lecherous slave who manipulates the old man Demos, who represents the Athenian people. It's hilarious but vicious. And it shows how the elite used comedy to attack populist leaders. Luna: So Cleon was basically the original target of political satire. Lucas: Exactly. And there's a fascinating question: was Cleon really that bad, or was he a scapegoat for the failures of the war? After his death, the Athenians actually passed a law—maybe—restricting comic attacks on individuals by name. So his legacy was powerful enough to provoke a reaction. Lucas: You know, one of the things I appreciate about this show is that we don't run ads. We get to just talk about history without interruptions. And that's only possible because some listeners choose to support us at buy me a coffee dot com slash fexingo. If the kind of deep dive we do is valuable to you, that's the place. It keeps the whole thing ad-free. Luna: And it really does make a difference. Every little bit helps us keep digging into stories like Cleon's. Lucas: So back to Cleon. One more thing: his rise really scared the aristocrats. They saw him as proof that democracy could go wrong—that a skilled speaker could manipulate the masses. And that fear echoes through history, from Plato to the American founders. But Cleon's supporters might have said he was just giving the people a voice. Luna: So was he a demagogue or a democrat? Lucas: Maybe both. He used democratic institutions—the assembly, the courts—to gain power. But he also pushed for policies that were harsh and expansionist. In the end, he's a mirror: we see in him what we fear or admire about popular leadership. And that's why he's still worth talking about, over two thousand years later. Luna: I never knew a tanner could leave such a mark on history. Lucas: Right? It shows that in Athens, at least for a while, someone from the workshop could stand up in the assembly and change the course of a war. Whether that was a good thing or not—well, that's the debate.